Those poor Milwaukee teachers

Superfreak said:
The above is absurd. Milwaukee has used vouchers for almost two decades. None of the bullshit you are spouting off has occurred. NONE.

You are simply spouting hateful fear mongering rhetoric.
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Good lord you not only don't know what you're talking about and you're making my arguemnt for me. The voucher systems being used by the Milwaukee public schools is a joke. Not only does Milwaukee have had some of the worst scores in the nation in their public schools, a situation in which vouchers have contributed greatly too but because of the voucher system in Milwaukee the local Catholic Parish schools have recieved more funding, per capita (per student) then the local public schools have and the Milwaukee residents pay higher property taxes for financing the voucher system then they do for the public schools with the vast majority of that voucher money going to Catholic schools that perform at a lower rate then the Milwaukee public schools which are some of the worst in the nation. You'd be smart not to use the Milwaukee voucher system for the basis of an argument.

If I was a non-Catholic living in Milwaukee I'd be pissed as hell. Looks to me that their trying to make Catholicism the State religion in Wisconsin.
 
ZappasGuitar said:
So then what's the fuss all about?

If vouchers are available, then public schools are already seeing the competition you previously claimed they aren't getting.
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The 'fuss' is about people like Mott pretending the voucher system is just a benefit for the rich. That people like Mott pretend it is a way for racists to segregate schools. That people like Mott pretend these programs don't exist to an extent. That people like Mott think we should not have vouchers.

The competition is there for SOME schools. It is a program that needs to be expanded. So that EVERY kid has a choice (via their parents of course).
 
Superfreak said:
Wrong. It works. It has worked in Milwaukee, DC, Harlem etc....



Wrong again. Most areas that have limited numbers of openings in the private and charter schools have a lottery system to get in.



ROFLMAO... so your solution is to make ALL of the poor kids remain stuck in under achieving public schools?

The only opposition to the voucher programs that is 'strong' comes directly from the teachers union.
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The Dept of Education did a study and when all things were considered, private schools are performing at the same level as public schools.

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/studies/2006461.pdf

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/921357/Voucher-programs-leave-behind-disabled-students.html

http://www.phillytrib.com/tribune/t...s-not-the-answer-to-better-schools-in-pa.html
 
ZappasGuitar said:
Alright...let's say vouchers do become available for the poor, do you really expect the wealthy to just sit back and continue to pay out of pocket to send their kids to private school while the poor enjoy "special privileges"?

Do you not think the wealthy will raise a stink over "discrimination" they are forced to suffer?

Because that's exactly what I see happening...

So...if you can guarantee that vouchers will be exclusively issued to the children of the poorest families first, and that no lawsuits will be brought forth by whining rich people, then I am on board with vouchers...
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Zap, vouchers are means tested. They exist to help poor families. Rich people don't have access to them. Also other public schools are included with vouchers. It is not just ornate school.
 
Rana said:
Do you think the rich will let the poor into their schools? The handicapped? The mentally ill?

Ahahahahaha, yeah, vouchers will really equal the playing field!
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Vouchers are not going to solve all school problems. But not sure why it should be mocked for helping some kids who would otherwise have no help.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Good lord you not only don't know what you're talking about and you're making my arguemnt for me. The voucher systems being used by the Milwaukee public schools is a joke. Not only does Milwaukee have had some of the worst scores in the nation in their public schools, a situation in which vouchers have contributed greatly too but because of the voucher system in Milwaukee the local Catholic Parish schools have recieved more funding, per capita (per student) then the local public schools have and the Milwaukee residents pay higher property taxes for financing the voucher system then they do for the public schools with the vast majority of that voucher money going to Catholic schools that perform at a lower rate then the Milwaukee public schools which are some of the worst in the nation. You'd be smart not to use the Milwaukee voucher system for the basis of an argument.
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Oh.... do link us up to the data you are using....

If I was a non-Catholic living in Milwaukee I'd be pissed as hell. Looks to me that their trying to make Catholicism the State religion in Wisconsin.
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What a crock of shit. Please... provide ANY evidence to back up that absurdity.
 
cawacko said:
Because the only other option they have is to stay in their local failing school.
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I have just ordered a book from the former Bush administration, Diane Ravitch, The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education (New York: Basic Books, 2010)

It should be an educating read, she was a former promoter of choice, I saw her on John Stewart.

I am willing to look at the evidence in this matter, any reading suggestions for your side of the issue?
 
Superfreak said:
Oh.... do link us up to the data you are using....



What a crock of shit. Please... provide ANY evidence to back up that absurdity.
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Dude, if you were even remotely objective it would take you about 10 seconds to google it your self. The Milwaukee vouchers program was and is a fiasco that has cost the residents and property owners there a ton while their educational progress has continued to decline. Only a blind partisan couldn't find it.
 
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cawacko said:
Vouchers are not going to solve all school problems. But not sure why it should be mocked for helping some kids who would otherwise have no help.
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Because in the real world it's not what happens. The well to do get tax subsidized discounts for the private education of their kids while these private schools except just a hand full of high performing students those kids "who other wise have no help" are not going to get accepted into some private acadamy. The other private schools who benefit from vouchers are the parochial schools who under perform most public schools in critical subjects, such as, math, science and technology while excluding students who do not accept their religious tenets.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Because in the real world it's not what happens. The well to do get tax subsidized discounts for the private education of their kids while these private schools except just a hand full of high performing students those kids "who other wise have no help" are not going to get accepted into some private acadamy. The other private schools who benefit from vouchers are the parochial schools who under perform most public schools in critical subjects, such as, math, science and technology while excluding students who do not accept their religious tenets.
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Wait, so now private schools underperform public schools? Hasn't the argument been private schools do better than public schools because private don't have to accept the worst students?

And I would love to see some statistics that show public schools do better than parochial schools in math, science and technology. Are you really saying, for example, in LASUD (Los Angeles Unified) where half the kids are Hispanic and for many English is a second language that they do better than the many rich kids in LA who go to private school?
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I wouldn't call 6 "many". As of 2005 only 6 States have tried voucher systems of which all of them I believe, except Wisconsin, have been been rejected by federal courts for violating The Seperation Clause. Many states have Charter schools but that's not the same as vouchers. I know Ohio was one of the 6 states to legalize vouchers (in the Clevelan area) but that was struck down by a Federal Court for violationg the Seperation Clause. The Wisconsin voucher system has been heavily criticized and scrutinized because it's per capita (that is "per student") cost exceeds those spent on public school students.
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LINK....
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Dude, if you were even remotely objective it would take you about 10 seconds to google it your self. The Milwaukee vouchers program was and is a fiasco that has cost the residents and property owners there a ton while their educational progress has continued to decline. Only a blind partisan couldn't find it.
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LINK IT UP IF IT IS SO EASY TO FIND....
 
cawacko said:
Wait, so now private schools underperform public schools? Hasn't the argument been private schools do better than public schools because private don't have to accept the worst students?

And I would love to see some statistics that show public schools do better than parochial schools in math, science and technology. Are you really saying, for example, in LASUD (Los Angeles Unified) where half the kids are Hispanic and for many English is a second language that they do better than the many rich kids in LA who go to private school?
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Messmer High School in Milwaukee is about 80% voucher students. It sends about 90% of its students on to four year colleges. The majority of the remainder go on to tech/vocational school or 2 year degrees. My guess is the MPS high schools are not quite at that level.

But like you... I await Mott's link to the data he has so readily available.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Dude, if you were even remotely objective it would take you about 10 seconds to google it your self. The Milwaukee vouchers program was and is a fiasco that has cost the residents and property owners there a ton while their educational progress has continued to decline. Only a blind partisan couldn't find it.
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So you should then have plentiful links to your assertion then.
 
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