Those poor Milwaukee teachers

Yeah, that is what they always promise us, competition will make it better, and you know that is just bullshit! Sometimes it ruins things instead of making them better!

Vouchers will create one hell of a mess!

The parents can choose, just like you can choose which college to send your children to, but it doesn't mean that children will be accepted! Therein lies the beginning of some VERY ugly problems! College is one thing, but grade school, the playing field should be equal for all students!


You hit the nail right on the head as far as vouchers go...

Just because parents are "allowed to choose" doesn't mean the best schools have to accept their child...and who wants to bet that the parents of the rich and well to do get preferential treatment at admission time?

And let's not even start to talk about the gap between what parents would likely get in the form of a voucher and what the school could actually charge for tuition...OF COURSE the voucher from the Government isn't going to cover 100% of the tuition+books+fees to the best private schools.
 
The real problem I have with vouchers is why the hell should I as a taxpayer subsidize someone who wants to send their kid to a private school. If you want to send your kid to a private school get your hands the fuck out of my pockets! Pay for it your self you cheap bastards.
 
Yeah, that is what they always promise us, competition will make it better, and you know that is just bullshit! Sometimes it ruins things instead of making them better!

LMAO.... way to spout off the liberal mantra....

competition DOES make it better. What exactly has competition 'ruined'???

Vouchers will create one hell of a mess!

ROFLMAO... now you are just getting desperate.

The parents can choose, just like you can choose which college to send your children to, but it doesn't mean that children will be accepted! Therein lies the beginning of some VERY ugly problems! College is one thing, but grade school, the playing field should be equal for all students!

except the playing field is not equal. which is why the elite send their kids in large waves to PRIVATE schools. Vouchers help to balance the scale. They are in no way perfect.... but they are a vast improvement over having NO CHOICE.
 
The real problem I have with vouchers is why the hell should I as a taxpayer subsidize someone who wants to send their kid to a private school. If you want to send your kid to a private school get your hands the fuck out of my pockets! Pay for it your self you cheap bastards.

why the FUCK should I pay to send ANYONES kids to school? Pay for it your own self you cheap fucking bastards.

But IF you are going to take my tax dollars and give it to SOME school... then at LEAST give it to the school the parents feel is the best choice for their kids.

You fucking crack me up with the 'get the hands out of my pockets'. It doesn't effect your pockets ONE BIT you moron. The Fed simply takes the money for the kid that would have gone to a public school and instead gives it to the private/charter school. You idiot.
 
You hit the nail right on the head as far as vouchers go...

Just because parents are "allowed to choose" doesn't mean the best schools have to accept their child...and who wants to bet that the parents of the rich and well to do get preferential treatment at admission time?

And let's not even start to talk about the gap between what parents would likely get in the form of a voucher and what the school could actually charge for tuition...OF COURSE the voucher from the Government isn't going to cover 100% of the tuition+books+fees to the best private schools.

ROFLMAO .... you twits are amusing.

So lets run through the scenarios....

Without vouchers the odds of a poor kid going to the best school is.... ZERO.

With vouchers... even if the schools favor the wealthy by 99 to 1.... the odds of that poor kid going to the best school is ONE percent.

So even in that extreme case... the poor kid at least has a fucking shot. You would deny him that shot.
 
ROFLMAO .... you twits are amusing.

So lets run through the scenarios....

Without vouchers the odds of a poor kid going to the best school is.... ZERO.

With vouchers... even if the schools favor the wealthy by 99 to 1.... the odds of that poor kid going to the best school is ONE percent.

So even in that extreme case... the poor kid at least has a fucking shot. You would deny him that shot.

Right...and your scenario would see to it the poorest kids educational opportunities diminishing even further, once the funds that used to pay for teachers and supplies at the public school the child attended are diverted to a posh private "academy" for the wealthy.

And are you SERIOUSLY trying to claim a 1% chance is an opportunity?

My GOD your concern for the poor is touching...really.
 
why the FUCK should I pay to send ANYONES kids to school? Pay for it your own self you cheap fucking bastards.

But IF you are going to take my tax dollars and give it to SOME school... then at LEAST give it to the school the parents feel is the best choice for their kids.

You fucking crack me up with the 'get the hands out of my pockets'. It doesn't effect your pockets ONE BIT you moron. The Fed simply takes the money for the kid that would have gone to a public school and instead gives it to the private/charter school. You idiot.

Like hell it doesn't. Rana is absolutely correct. Vouchers undermine public schools so that the prosperous can send their kids to private schools that working class people still can't afford even with vouchers and then syphon off that much needed revenue to private schools that don't need it and all to often are religious perochial schools that aren't even up to the standards of our public schools. Vouchers in no way shape of form increase competition. To the contrary, all they do is increase the gap between haves and have nots while substantially lowering the over all quality of education available.

When private schools will open their doors for all students who wish to attend and can meet all the necessary standards for providing a quality education then we can talk. Until then it's an education ponzi scheme that lowers the cost of private education for the children of the well to do at the expense of tax payers who's children won't have equal or fair access to enrollment in those schools.

Yea....we know you think were stupid we just didn't realize you thought were were Dixie kind of stupid.
 
I don't disagree that some parents are a part of the problem, but it is the public school system that allows it to happen.



The stupidity of the above is exactly why there is a problem. You are not paying for the rich kid to go to prep school. You are allowing everyone to have the option of what school to send their kids to. If a parent is allotted $8k per kid for education... then the PARENT should decide which school to send their kid and the subsequent $8k to.

It creates competition and efficiency within education.



Which means NOTHING. This is why the parents would have a CHOICE. They can CHOOSE which school to send their kids to.... whether the school is private, charter or public... the PARENT CHOOSES which is best and THAT school gets the funding for that parents child.



No one is trying to reinvent the wheel. The voucher system IMPROVES the wheel.



The above is pure nonsense. The poor benefit in that they will get better competition for the tax dollars allotted to their kids. They won't be stuck with the leftover teachers like they are in the current public education system.

Do you far right wing ideologues ever think things through, or do you just choose the best opt out that addresses your only 3 priories...ME, MYSELF and I?

A public school receives federal, state, and local district funds. Your self centered scheme would decimate that structure and it would create a nightmare.

Here's how it works...a public education is a right for every American. We, the People fund it. NOW...if you or any of your far right wing ideologues don't want to send your children to the public school which is the hub of that community, you can reach into your little pocket and shell out as much as you want to send your kid to a private or parochial school.
 
Like hell it doesn't. Rana is absolutely correct. Vouchers undermine public schools so that the prosperous can send their kids to private schools that working class people still can't afford even with vouchers and then syphon off that much needed revenue to private schools that don't need it and all to often are religious perochial schools that aren't even up to the standards of our public schools. Vouchers in no way shape of form increase competition. To the contrary, all they do is increase the gap between haves and have nots while substantially lowering the over all quality of education available.

When private schools will open their doors for all students who wish to attend and can meet all the necessary standards for providing a quality education then we can talk. Until then it's an education ponzi scheme that lowers the cost of private education for the children of the well to do at the expense of tax payers who's children won't have equal or fair access to enrollment in those schools.

Yea....we know you think were stupid we just didn't realize you thought were were Dixie kind of stupid.

Wide spread vouchers have never been made available so you have absolutely no grounds to base your statements.

What we do know, is that in the majority of programs where charter and vouchers have been used, there has been much success.

snip>

WHAT IS KNOWN AND UNKNOWN The authors find that many of the important empirical questions about voucher and charter schools have not been answered, and because most of these programs have been operating for only a short time, none of these questions has been answered definitively. Current findings include the following:
Academic achievement. Small experimental, privately funded voucher programs suggest that African-American students may receive a modest achievement benefit after one or two years in the programs (Figure 1). The exact reasons for this benefit, however, remain unknown. Children of other racial groups in voucher schools have shown no consistent evidence of academic benefit or harm.
Charter-school achievement results are mixed. In Arizona, charter schools seem to be outperforming conventional public schools in reading and possibly in math. In Texas, charter schools that focus specifically on students at risk for poor academic performance show an achievement advantage over conventional public schools, but other charter schools perform slightly worse than conventional public schools. An examination of newly opened charter schools in Michigan indicates no difference from conventional public schools in terms of achievement effects in one tested grade (grade 7), while conventional public schools outperform charters in the other tested grade (grade 4). Meanwhile, the studies in both Arizona and Texas suggest that achievement effects in charter schools improve after the first year of operation.
The long-term effects of voucher and charter programs remain unknown. And perhaps the most important unknown is how voucher and charter programs will affect the achievement of the large majority of students who remain in conventional public schools. Either positive or negative effects are theoretically possible, but to date there is no good evidence on this crucial issue.
Choice. For a variety of reasons, of which academic achievement is but one, large numbers of parents want the choices that voucher and charter programs afford. In virtually all the voucher and charter programs studied, parents report high satisfaction with their children's schools (Figure 2 shows voucher results). It is unknown, however, whether voucher and charter programs can be scaled up to provide a range of desirable choices for large numbers of families.
Access. Some targeted programs with income qualifications have placed low-income, low-achieving, and minority students in voucher schools. Most choice programs, however, whether voucher or charter, have done less well in extending access to students with disabilities or with poorly educated parents. Programs that subsidize private-school tuition via income-tax benefits favor middle- and upper-income families.
Integration. In highly segregated communities, targeted voucher programs may modestly increase racial integration by placing minority children into voucher schools that have a smaller proportion of minority students. Limited evidence suggests that most charter schools have racial distributions that fall within the range of distributions of local public schools. Evidence from other nations, however, suggests that large-scale unregulated choice programs would likely lead to greater stratification. Studies of existing U.S. voucher and charter programs (which are usually regulated rather than unregulated) have lacked sufficient data to provide definitive answers about the effects of the programs on integration. Dynamic analyses that consider both the schools students attend and the schools they would likely attend in the absence of such programs are needed.
Civic socialization. Almost no research has investigated the effects of voucher and charter schools on civic socialization. The few studies that compare civic socialization in public and private schools provide limited evidence that is suggestive of what might be achieved in voucher and charter programs, namely, that existing private schools are not, on average, any worse than public schools at socializing citizens.
 
why the FUCK should I pay to send ANYONES kids to school? Pay for it your own self you cheap fucking bastards.

ANSWER: Because they paid to put YOU through school...

Nowhere can I find a more "eloquently put" explanation of why it is necessary for all of us as a Nation to SHARE in the responsibility of educating of our young.

Children are after all our greatest commodity and making sure each and every one of them gets an opportunity to get an education is important.

Of course there are those who would stifle the educational opportunities of some because of petty selfishness.

"I shouldn't have to pay for your kids..." he whines, not caring that others not related to him helped pay for his education as part of that "shared sacrifice."

A pity some peoples' view is so limited by their selfishness.
 
ANSWER: Because they paid to put YOU through school...

Nowhere can I find a more "eloquently put" explanation of why it is necessary for all of us as a Nation to SHARE in the responsibility of educating of our young.

Children are after all our greatest commodity and making sure each and every one of them gets an opportunity to get an education is important.

Of course there are those who would stifle the educational opportunities of some because of petty selfishness.

"I shouldn't have to pay for your kids..." he whines, not caring that others not related to him helped pay for his education as part of that "shared sacrifice."

A pity some peoples' view is so limited by their selfishness.

Perfect Zappa! These self centered right wingers believe somehow they are self made. They were just created as an adult. The truth is they wouldn't even be alive if someone didn't feed them, change their shitty diapers, nurse them back to health when they were sick, safely navigate them across busy streets and give them an education. It isn't solely because of our parents, there are so many people that contribute to our growth.

It is beyond narcissism, it is ignorance.
 
The real problem I have with vouchers is why the hell should I as a taxpayer subsidize someone who wants to send their kid to a private school. If you want to send your kid to a private school get your hands the fuck out of my pockets! Pay for it your self you cheap bastards.
I don't want my kids exposed to your failed, liberal, brain washing agenda at school....so don't force me to pay for your kids public school and leave me with nothing for my own childrens education...

Thats called tit for tat....justice....fair treatment....equality
 
Perfect Zappa! These self centered right wingers believe somehow they are self made. They were just created as an adult. The truth is they wouldn't even be alive if someone didn't feed them, change their shitty diapers, nurse them back to health when they were sick, safely navigate them across busy streets and give them an education. It isn't solely because of our parents, there are so many people that contribute to our growth.

It is beyond narcissism, it is ignorance.

And your recommendation for a kid living in the inner-city whose family doesn't have the money to move to a better neighborhood or send their child to private school is...? Just tough luck they have to go to the sh*tty public school in their neighborhood?
 
I don't want my kids exposed to your failed, liberal, brain washing agenda at school....so don't force me to pay for your kids public school and leave me with nothing for my own childrens education...

Thats called tit for tat....justice....fair treatment....equality

I will tell you what the right told us during the Vietnam war...Love it of leave it.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
 
I will tell you what the right told us during the Vietnam war...Love it of leave it.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Your kids, aren't you like 70? You shouldn't you be on your grand kids or even great grands! Although some men do start late in life
 
Right...and your scenario would see to it the poorest kids educational opportunities diminishing even further, once the funds that used to pay for teachers and supplies at the public school the child attended are diverted to a posh private "academy" for the wealthy.

And are you SERIOUSLY trying to claim a 1% chance is an opportunity?

My GOD your concern for the poor is touching...really.

No you fucking moron.... I am saying that would be the worst case scenario. You and other lefties on the board were bemoaning the 'fact' that those poor kids wouldn't be provided the same opportunity as the rich. I was taking that to the extreme. Regardless.... in your scenario without vouchers, the poor kids have ZERO chance.

You obviously care more about the union stranglehold on public education far more than you do about the poor kids.

As for taking money away from the public schools.... yes... and you are also taking away the student. That is how competition works. If you suck, you get less business than your competition.
 
Like hell it doesn't. Rana is absolutely correct. Vouchers undermine public schools so that the prosperous can send their kids to private schools that working class people still can't afford even with vouchers and then syphon off that much needed revenue to private schools that don't need it and all to often are religious perochial schools that aren't even up to the standards of our public schools. Vouchers in no way shape of form increase competition. To the contrary, all they do is increase the gap between haves and have nots while substantially lowering the over all quality of education available.

No moron. That is NOT how it works. Here is a fucking clue for you.... if a student is able to afford the school with the voucher... THEY DON'T GO TO THE SCHOOL. They instead go to the public school as do the funds. You fucking half wit.

Tell us genius... if those 'religious' schools aren't up to the 'standards' of public schools.... why do the elite continue sending their kids to the private schools???? Fucking moron.

You are completely full of shit. Vouchers in NO way increase the gap. Run the numbers moron. I know you probably have to wait until your masters provide you with more bullshit... hence the same parroting response from so many on the left right now.

NONE of you have shown how it will widen the gap. Simply saying so doesn't make it so.

When private schools will open their doors for all students who wish to attend and can meet all the necessary standards for providing a quality education then we can talk. Until then it's an education ponzi scheme that lowers the cost of private education for the children of the well to do at the expense of tax payers who's children won't have equal or fair access to enrollment in those schools.

You clearly have no fucking clue how the voucher system works.

Yea....we know you think were stupid we just didn't realize you thought were were Dixie kind of stupid.

On this topic, you most certainly ARE ditzie kind of stupid.
 
ANSWER: Because they paid to put YOU through school...

Nowhere can I find a more "eloquently put" explanation of why it is necessary for all of us as a Nation to SHARE in the responsibility of educating of our young.

Children are after all our greatest commodity and making sure each and every one of them gets an opportunity to get an education is important.

Of course there are those who would stifle the educational opportunities of some because of petty selfishness.

"I shouldn't have to pay for your kids..." he whines, not caring that others not related to him helped pay for his education as part of that "shared sacrifice."

A pity some peoples' view is so limited by their selfishness.

The point you moron is that we are ALL already paying for other people's kids. I have no problem paying into the system for that. I was answering his stupidity with the same 'logic'. But I am sure you didn't bother to read that.... did you moron?

Next time try reading what I was responding to. It might save you from making such a fool of yourself.
 
The point you moron is that we are ALL already paying for other people's kids. I have no problem paying into the system for that. I was answering his stupidity with the same 'logic'. But I am sure you didn't bother to read that.... did you moron?

Next time try reading what I was responding to. It might save you from making such a fool of yourself.

No, you weren't "answering his stupidity with the same logic"...

You were just being the same douchebag you always are when you don't like how someone responds.

The point is that everyone's children get the same educational opportunities.

If the wealthy can afford to send their kids to private prep school, that is fine, but they still have to pay for a "public" education just like everyone else...and it truly is ironic that it is the wealthiest of us doing the most whining about how "unfair" it is that they have to actually PAY for their children's private school.

You want to be able to whine about how UNFAIR it is that you have to pay for other people's kids to go to school, well, I wasn't too happy about paying to put your whiny little butt behind a desk, but I did anyway, BECAUSE THAT'S MY PATRIOTIC DUTY.

Maybe you could stop whining for just a little while and try and do yours for once?
 
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