Are you for or against the Obama middle class tax cuts?

[cawacko]

SF:

I'm pretty certain you wouldn't have much difficulty figuring out how cutting tax rates is a tax cut if a Republican were proposing it. Likewise, I'm sure this would be so hard to figure out if instead of cutting tax rates by five percentage points it was your commission getting cut by five percentage points.

I'm not trying to make it a partisan thing. That's why my initial response in the believe lies thread stated the facts with no mentions of Democrats or Republicans because the minute those words get thrown in everything goes out the window.

At the end of the day the taxpayer cares about his bottom line. So I guess you can argue Obama is giving you (mr. taxpayer) a tax cut but your taxes aren't actually dropping. They are staying where they were for the past ten years.

Edit: Sorry I thought you were addressing me not SF.

 

[Damocles]

SF:

I'm pretty certain you wouldn't have much difficulty figuring out how cutting tax rates is a tax cut if a Republican were proposing it. Likewise, I'm sure this would be so hard to figure out if instead of cutting tax rates by five percentage points it was your commission getting cut by five percentage points.

Silliness, is it a "hike" in the budget if you continue to give the same amount of money to a line item (roads for instance)?

It isn't a "cut" to continue the same policy for a longer period. Cutting tax rates would actually involve making the rates lower not just extending current rates. I would also point out that "targeted" credits doesn't cut tax rates either although I do think they are a good tool for stimulus, if you give credits for hiring people to employers for the duration of the economic stagnation it would be even better.

 

[Bonestorm]

again you twit... he is NOT cutting them. They are NOT going down from here.

you are trying to say that if Obama lets them go up and then he brings them back down that it is a cut. IF he does that, then there is NO change to the taxpayer. Yet you want us to believe that is a CUT????

Like I said, tell your masters that they should run with that as a platform for this November.... "hey, we are going to let your taxes go up so that we can cut them back down to the level they are currently at.... vote for us.... we edumacated"

You're smarter than this.

Let's say that currently your commission rate in 2011 is set at 25% of sales. Let's say that tomorrow your boss tells that in 2011 your commission rate will be 20% of sales, not 25% of sales. Was your commissions rate cut?

The baseline is scheduled 2011 tax rates. Cutting the 2011 tax rates is a tax cut.

 

[Bonestorm]

Silliness, is it a "hike" in the budget if you continue to give the same amount of money to a line item (roads for instance)?

It isn't a "cut" to continue the same policy for a longer period. Cutting tax rates would actually involve making the rates lower not just extending current rates. I would also point out that "targeted blessed" credits doesn't cut tax rates either.

Oh, well when you describe it that way . . . it's still fucking stupid. Try to say the same thing over and over and over again and maybe you'll convince someone.

 

[Damocles]

You're smarter than this.

Let's say that currently your commission rate in 2011 is set at 25% of sales. Let's say that tomorrow your boss tells that in 2011 your commission rate will be 20% of sales, not 25% of sales. Was your commissions rate cut?

The baseline is scheduled 2011 tax rates. Cutting the 2011 tax rates is a tax cut.

They are simply extending an expiration date. That is not a cut.

 

[Damocles]

Oh, well when you describe it that way . . . it's still fucking stupid. Try to say the same thing over and over and over again and maybe you'll convince someone.

Right, making snarky comments might work if what you said made sense, but if you continue to repeat it suddenly you are "right"? Take a bit of your own advice. The reality is, moving an expiration date doesn't change tax rates. It doesn't "cut" them, nor does it "raise" them.

If I am making a budget, and something that was scheduled to stop next year instead is continued at exactly the same amount it was for the previous years did I "hike" the budget on that item, or did we simply extend the time limitation?

 

[Bonestorm]

They are simply extending an expiration date. That is not a cut.

Hilarious. I'll play along for giggles. Extending the expiration date of what?

 

[cawacko]

You're smarter than this.

Let's say that currently your commission rate in 2011 is set at 25% of sales. Let's say that tomorrow your boss tells that in 2011 your commission rate will be 20% of sales, not 25% of sales. Was your commissions rate cut?

The baseline is scheduled 2011 tax rates. Cutting the 2011 tax rates is a tax cut.

So again even though to that worker his commission rate will stay at 25% as it has been the last ten years the boss still gave him a cut is what you are saying?

 

[Damocles]

Hilarious. I'll play along for giggles. Extending the expiration date of what?

A tax rate. Do you even pay attention to what you are saying?

Again, just because somebody decides not to sunset something on a specific date, but rather extend the date, doesn't mean they have "cut" anything any more than it means that you "hike" the budget when you continue to pay for a line item. It takes some serious worship to believe that keeping something exactly the same is "cutting" it.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

This is probably the funniest thing they've come up with yet, the pinheads! The Bush Tax Cuts, which EVERY Democrat opposed, and called "tax cuts for the rich" for 8 years, are suddenly transformed into the "Obama tax cuts for the middle class?" It is almost so absurdly ridiculous, Mott can't even bring himself to post it with a straight face. Notice how he has to keep referring to it as "Obama tax cuts for the middle class" as if to reinforce the propaganda? Or maybe so he can convince himself of his own lie? In any event, there is no "TAX CUT" for anyone! The Bush Tax Cuts are scheduled to EXPIRE... meaning, there will be a tax INCREASE. The question is, will they be allowed to expire and ostensibly raise taxes, or will they be renewed, allowing taxes to remain the same?

While it's frustrating having to deal with pinheads desperate to win a few political points in any way they can dream up, it is refreshing to know, they now ADMIT, the Bush Tax Cuts, were NOT tax cuts for the rich, as they lied about for 8 years. I think it's just a case of pinheads forgetting what lies they've told.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

This is probably the funniest thing they've come up with yet, the pinheads! The Bush Tax Cuts, which EVERY Democrat opposed, and called "tax cuts for the rich" for 8 years, are suddenly transformed into the "Obama tax cuts for the middle class?" It is almost so absurdly ridiculous, Mott can't even bring himself to post it with a straight face. Notice how he has to keep referring to it as "Obama tax cuts for the middle class" as if to reinforce the propaganda? Or maybe so he can convince himself of his own lie? In any event, there is no "TAX CUT" for anyone! The Bush Tax Cuts are scheduled to EXPIRE... meaning, there will be a tax INCREASE. The question is, will they be allowed to expire and ostensibly raise taxes, or will they be renewed, allowing taxes to remain the same?

While it's frustrating having to deal with pinheads desperate to win a few political points in any way they can dream up, it is refreshing to know, they now ADMIT, the Bush Tax Cuts, were NOT tax cuts for the rich, as they lied about for 8 years. I think it's just a case of pinheads forgetting what lies they've told.

Does this mean you oppose the Obama middle class tax cuts?

 

[Bonestorm]

A tax rate. Do you even pay attention to what you are saying?

Again, just because somebody decides not to sunset something on a specific date, but rather extend the date, doesn't mean they have "cut" anything any more than it means that you "hike" the budget when you continue to pay for a line item. It takes some serious worship to believe that keeping something exactly the same is "cutting" it.

Extending the expiration date of a tax rate? Seriously? Come on, now. You know that answer. I'll give you a hint: nobody refers to the the "Bush tax rates."

On the second paragraph, they aren't keeping tax rates the same. They are changing them. The baseline is what are tax rates currently scheduled to be in 2011. As compared to that baseline, lowering the rates is a cut.

 

[Bonestorm]

So again even though to that worker his commission rate will stay at 25% as it has been the last ten years the boss still gave him a cut is what you are saying?

But that's not the scenario we are presented with. A comparative scenario is that in 2010 your commission rate is 20%. Your commission rate for 2011 is set at 25%. Tomorrow, your commission rate for 2011 is lowered from the scheduled 25% to 20%. Did the your commission rate for 2011 get cut?

 

[Damocles]

Extending the expiration date of a tax rate? Seriously? Come on, now. You know that answer. I'll give you a hint: nobody refers to the the "Bush tax rates."

On the second paragraph, they aren't keeping tax rates the same. They are changing them. The baseline is what are tax rates currently scheduled to be in 2011. As compared to that baseline, lowering the rates is a cut.

We are talking about extending a tax rate, so I talk about extending a tax rate. Bush's tax rate cuts are going to be extended for one particular class, that isn't another cut, it is an extension. Another "cut" would make them still lower than the rate they currently pay.

 

[cawacko]

But that's not the scenario we are presented with. A comparative scenario is that in 2010 your commission rate is 20%. Your commission rate for 2011 is set at 25%. Tomorrow, your commission rate for 2011 is lowered from the scheduled 25% to 20%. Did the your commission rate for 2011 get cut?

well yes it is the scenario we presented with. at the end of the day the worker will ultimately see no difference in his commission rate.

We could use your example and say the rate was scheduled to go from 20% to 25% and it goes to 23%. So while the worker see's his commission rate rise his commission rate was still cut.

 

[Bonestorm]

We are talking about extending a tax rate, so I talk about extending a tax rate. Bush's tax rate cuts are going to be extended for one particular class, that isn't another cut, it is an extension. Another "cut" would make them still lower than the rate they currently pay.

You crack me up, man.

 

[Damocles]

But that's not the scenario we are presented with. A comparative scenario is that in 2010 your commission rate is 20%. Your commission rate for 2011 is set at 25%. Tomorrow, your commission rate for 2011 is lowered from the scheduled 25% to 20%. Did the your commission rate for 2011 get cut?

So you are saying the government's commission rate is getting "cut"?

LOL. Again, it is silliness to say that keeping a budget item exactly the same is a "cut" or a "hike".

If my employer decided to keep my commission rate the same I didn't get a raise, but I didn't get a "cut". When my employers decided not to give me a raise in 2009, it was not a "cut" in pay.

 

[Bonestorm]

well yes it is the scenario we presented with. at the end of the day the worker will ultimately see no difference in his commission rate.

We could use your example and say the rate was scheduled to go from 20% to 25% and it goes to 23%. So while the worker see's his commission rate rise his commission rate was still cut.

OK, pretend you're the worker for a minute. How do you see it?

 

[Damocles]

OK, pretend you're the worker for a minute. How do you see it?

I told you how I saw it. When my employers chose not to give us a raise in 2009 they didn't "cut" my pay. I simply didn't get a raise.

 

[Damocles]

You crack me up, man.

And you are astounding. If the Rs extended the previous cuts I'd not be crowing about how they "cut taxes" again. It's stupid to say keeping something the same rate is a "cut".