If God were real, you wouldn’t need a book

[gfm7175]

Agree. Maybe not a full on thumper, but a believer.

 

[gfm7175]

Faith just means you believe something on bad evidence.

Not what faith is. You've already been told what faith is.

When are you going to prove there isn't an island full of rainbow unicorns in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean

When are you going to prove that the moon isn't actually made of cheese?

 

[Into the Night]

The Bible, according to many, many, many Christians, is the word of God and is taken literally as such.

It contains the word of God. It also contains genealogies, songs, prophecies, and descriptions of events in history.

The creation of everything in 7 days is taking literally.

6. On the seventh, God rested.
A 'day' is not necessarily a 24 hour period.

How do you count a day before there was a Sun?

Go learn some Hebrew and figure out what 'day' means and the translation error that took place here.

Regardless of the time it took to create the Earth, the age of Earth is unknown.

The existence of Adam and Eve is taking literally.

Yup. It is unknown how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden.

The fall is taking literally.

Yup. The Fall occurred, bringing both birth and death into the world, as the world entered it's current state.

A belief that the Earth is only 6000 years old is also taken very literally by many Christians.

Nope. The age of Earth is unknown.

Even if you take away the age of the Earth,

You can't. Earth has an origin.

there are still a dozen events in the Bible that fly in the face of science. I've listed them multiple times.

You've listed nothing that conflicts with any theory of science.

By the way, this is a separate topic from the god of the gaps discussion.

Buzzword fallacy. There is no 'gap'.

It's clear that you and many others here are 100% on the god of the gaps bandwagon.

Buzzword fallacy. There is no 'gap'. The only one mentioning any kind of 'gap' is YOU. You are not everyone.

 

[Into the Night]

No.

God/Jesus only made himself known when man was at his most superstitious and there were no video recording devices.

Go learn what 'superstition' means. Buzzword fallacy.
YARP

 

[Into the Night]

We don't know how the universe came into existence and I'm fine with that.

How do you know it came into existence at all?

You want to fill in the knowledge gap w/ a god.

There is no 'gap'. Buzzword fallacy.

The knowledge gaps are really the only reason there is to believe....the same reason man believed in gods 2000+ years ago.

There is no 'gap'. Buzzword fallacy.

Most people believe in a god or gods. They have for all of Man's recorded history, and it is still true today.
Even Adam and Eve believed in a god.

 

[Into the Night]

Nothing random about them. They are universal mathematical principles which matter and energy conform to.

The Universe is not equations. Random equations are not the Universe.

We aren't living in a disorganized, unlawful universe.

The Universe is unorganized. There is no 'law' of the Universe.

That is one of the clues which the logical person infers that life, the universe, and everything didn't happen by random chance and by purely inanimate reasons.

You've been reading Douglass Adams too long.

The Universe is not life.
The Universe is everything by definition.
The Universe is unorganized.

What makes you think the Universe was created?

 

[Into the Night]

It strengthens my case that posters of the quality of you and IntoTheNightgown are so adamantly convinced I am wrong

You are wrong. Science is not buzzwords. The Universe is not a law. The Universe is not organized. The Universe is not life.

 

[Into the Night]

He's an angry elf.

I assure you, I am no Elven. I am a native American, and a human being.

 

[Into the Night]

Yes, The Bible is the Word of God.

By some Christians, but not all. Were you there when the creation of the heavens and the Earth occurred? I know that I wasn't there. I have no clue how it happened. I can only go by what The Bible says (and be aware of the issues that can arise from translating between different languages).

Yes. Adam and Eve literally existed.

Yes, "The Fall" is a historical event.

Some Christians believe that the Earth is thousands of years old (usually somewhere around 6,000 - 10,000 years old is believed). Other Christians believe that the Earth is millions or billions of years old. The age of the Earth is unknown (The Bible doesn't specify).

You have yet to demonstrate how miracles didn't or can't occur. You have yet to demonstrate how you know more about the inner-workings of the heavens and the earth than the very creator of them.

What "gaps"? It seems that you have your preconceived notions about Christianity, and you are forever going to stick to them, regardless of any input from me, Into The Night, or anyone else.

The Bible is oft described as the 'Word of God', and it is True on many levels.

A more precise description is that the Bible contains the word of God. It also contains genealogies, songs, prophecies, and descriptions of historical events...all to act as a witness of God and Jesus Christ, and to reveal the gospel and some of their teachings to Man, and to reveal the glad news of the Redemption and how it may be achieved.

 

[Cypress]

The Universe is unorganized!

What makes you think the Universe has an origin?

The answer to the question, “Did the universe have a beginning?” is, “It probably did.” We have no viable models of an eternal universe. The BGV theorem gives us reason to believe that such models simply cannot be constructed.

When physicists or theologians ask me about the BGV theorem, I am happy to oblige. But my own view is that the theorem does not tell us anything about the existence of God. A deep mystery remains. The laws of physics that describe the quantum creation of the universe also describe its evolution. This seems to suggest that they have some independent existence. What exactly this means, we don’t know.

- Aleksandr Valenkin, theoretical physicist​

 

[Into the Night]

God and the divine Jesus dont need to exist for the writings about them to matter.

You must locked yourself in yet another paradox. You are being irrational. You cannot argue both sides of any paradox.

 

[Into the Night]

Why would the existence of video recording devices make any sort of a difference?

He seems to worship these devices.

It's pretty easy to modify the imagery these devices create. It's now even possible to completely synthesize video using AI. Sora is one such system capable of doing so. There are even a fair number of YouTube videos made with Sora. Many are quite funny.

I've, time and time again, literally watched people deny doing what they were caught on video doing, even after they were provided and/or directly shown the video of themselves doing it.

'Caught' on video...doesn't mean much. Like I said...synthesized video is easy to produce.

Why would you think that all sorts of people would suddenly accept Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior if they simply saw a video recording of him performing a miracle or two? In fact, there were plenty of people who were RIGHT THERE IN PERSON all the while he was performing miracles who still didn't accept him as their LORD and Savior.

If Jesus Christ Himself were to appear and personally shake your hand, would you believe Him? Again, EVERYTHING here depends on faith, and faith alone.

It HAS been prophesied that many would appear claiming to be Christ, and even performing miracles, but they are fakes.
Sheep know their own Shepherd.

The Proud stands on their own ego, and will fall and fail because of it. They will war and contend with one another, and be ripe for falling for any of these fakes.

 

[Into the Night]

The answer to the question, “Did the universe have a beginning?” is, “It probably did.” We have no viable models of an eternal universe. The BGV theorem gives us reason to believe that such models simply cannot be constructed.

When physicists or theologians ask me about the BGV theorem, I am happy to oblige. But my own view is that the theorem does not tell us anything about the existence of God. A deep mystery remains. The laws of physics that describe the quantum creation of the universe also describe its evolution. This seems to suggest that they have some independent existence. What exactly this means, we don’t know.

- Aleksandr Valenkin, theoretical physicist​

Random equations mean nothing. The Universe is not an equation.
The Universe is unorganized.

So you can't answer the question I put to you. Keep trying.

 

[Cypress]

Agree. Maybe not a full on thumper, but a believer.

I've never been able to convince myself that life, the universe, and everything is a cosmic accident caused by chance and by inanimate and irrational physical material causes.

It's more likely than not that a mathematically rational and lawfully organized universe is the result of some kind of rational agency, principle, or force.

That basically puts me in the same category as Einstein, who rejected atheism in favor of some kind of pantheism.

I also think some of the atheist strawman arguments against Christianity are cherry picked, tangential, and self serving.

 

[Into the Night]

It's witten by men, written from the perspective of men who are assumed to have been inspired to write.

There is nothing anywhere in the New Testament indicating these men are writing down dictation from a disembodied voice.

Paradox. Irrational. You cannot argue both sides of any paradox.

Not possible. The sun wasn't created until the fourth day.

Time is not a static uniform thing. The passage of time depends on the observer's frame of reference.

Time is not a passage.

Yet another random equation. The Universe is not equations.

Thanks for admitting your genealogy only records human history, and makes many assumptions in doing so. It doesn't represent Earth history.

You seem to speak for Christians and what they believe. Please tell me which churches and which denominations you have attended. I have attended at least 12 different Christian denominations and churches.

I have never heard anyone talking about a 6000 year old Earth, and even if they did it has nothing to do with core Christian theology, practice, and creed.

You haven't pointed to any scientific reports in the Bible. You've pointed to poetry and metaphor and tried to treat it as science, even though nothing you pointed to is a required belief in Christian creed.

The only legitimate points you made are that humans can't survive death or walk on water.

Humans can survive death. Walking on water is easy. People even drive on it. People even skate on it.

But Christians consider Jesus to be more than human.

He is also a god.

Incorrect. God of the gaps is atheist invention.

Nope. Atheists did not invent this term. ZenMode and you did.

The God of the gaps argument points to areas where there are no scientific theories and says God lives there. More importantly, they claim as as the gaps close , God will disappear.

There is no 'gap'.

This is a convenient little atheist fantasy.

Atheism is not a fantasy.

I'm pointing to the known universal mathematical laws of physics,

The Universe is unorganized. There is no such thing as a 'universal law of physics'. Buzzword fallacy.

and the known fine tuning of the physical constants,

Natural constants are not 'tuned'. Their purpose is to convert a relation to our units of measurement.

and asking atheists how the rational could be caused by the irrational.

Buzzword fallacies. Go lean what 'atheist','rational', and 'cause' means.

 

[Hume]

I've never been able to convince myself that life, the universe, and everything is a cosmic accident caused by chance and by inanimate and irrational physical material causes.

Neither did Plato or Aristotle. But neither did they believe the Christian God was the only alternative.

 

[Into the Night]

I've never been able to convince myself that life, the universe, and everything is a cosmic accident caused by chance and by inanimate and irrational physical material causes.

Random words ignored.

It's more likely than not that a mathematically rational and lawfully organized universe is the result of some kind of rational agency, principle, or force.

The Universe is unorganized.

That basically puts me in the same category as Einstein, who rejected atheism in favor of some kind of pantheism.

You are not Einstein. You have never created any theory of science. You deny science, mathematics, logic, and English. You also ignore philosophy.

I also think some of the atheist strawman arguments against Christianity are cherry picked, tangential, and self serving.

There are no arguments by atheists against Christianity.

 

[Into the Night]

Neither did Plato or Aristotle. But neither did they believe the Christian God was the only alternative.

Plato created no theory of science.
Aristotle's theories of science have been falsified. They no longer theories at all.

 

[Hume]

Plato created no theory of science.

He was not trying to.

 

[Hume]

Aristotle's theories of science have been falsified.

Just name one of them. Show that you are not a jerkoff troll, debate for once in your life.