Abortion

[AProudLefty]

first its consciousness now its brain activity. Rolling goal posts.

Coma patients do exhibit activities. Fetuses under 6 weeks don't.

 

[gfm7175]

Well, I'll say right off the bat that I've never been married, but I've certainly had sexual intercourse and I don't think there was anything wrong with that.

I think that there was something wrong with that (as that it is a deviation away from God's design for sexual intercourse). I realize that you aren't a Christian as I am, but sex is the most intimate/special of relations that one can have with someone else and I think that it's better off to keep that sort of thing as something special with a "special someone" (marriage) rather than offering it up to multiple people. Of course, there are some exceptions to that general statement (e.g. certain instances of divorce, death of spouse).

I think that you "deep down" know that there was something wrong with what you had done because you (see below) make mention of "had I gotten any of these 3 women pregnant" as well as "... have a backup plan just in case a pregnancy results anyway".

IOW, you knew that having sex outside of marriage could very well lead to having children that you weren't prepared to have (and that you didn't desire to have), but you also knew that sex "FEELS REALLY GOOD", so you eventually succumbed to that temptation because you entertained the thought of having sex outside of marriage.

Only 3 women though.

Now, you could say, what about a contract, to which I'd say, my word is my bond .

Verbal agreement

Had I gotten any of these 3 women pregnant, I would have respected her decision to keep or terminate the pregnancy. I would have even helped pay for her to have an abortion, assuming I had the money to do so. The first woman, I wouldn't have had the money, but I used a condom, so that would have been unlikely. Second woman, she used protection and we were in Canada, where abortions are paid for by the government. Third time, lots of unprotected sex, but she was on the pill and I had some money at the time.

So in summation, I see absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to have sex and not having children, but to definitely have a backup plan just in case a pregnancy results anyway. And yes, I think that one option should be abortion, but only if the woman is amenable. If not, the man should have to do what he can to pay child support.

In summation, you're still condoning a specific subset of 'contract killing' (more commonly known as abortion).

 

[gfm7175]

From personal experience, I think that desire to have sex can be pretty strong, especially when one is in one's younger years. I think we could say that a lot of people take risks when they are young and then pay the consequences for risks taken that don't turn out well.

Correct. That's why I highly recommend immediately RUNNING AWAY from such temptations rather than entertaining them. Once entertained, temptations gain power and become increasingly harder to resist.

Here's where we disagree, as I don't believe that abortion is a subset of contract killings.

I understand that you don't believe it, but you've yet to explain your reasoning for how abortion is somehow NOT a subset of contract killings.

Contract killing = a hired "professional killer" kills a living human at the request of another living human.

RE: abortion --- a doctor is the hired "professional killer", the unborn child is the living human being killed at the request of another living human (the child's mother).

Abortion is a proper subset of 'contract killing'.

 

[gfm7175]

Agreed. Some women decide that it would be best to terminate their pregnancies at this point. I think that should be their choice to make.

Wouldn't it be better off to not engage in behavior that can initiate a pregnancy (instead of sentencing an unborn child to the death penalty because of its parents' poor decisions)?

 

[gfm7175]

I think we can agree that in an ideal world, all pregnancies would be desired by the woman getting pregnant. We don't live in such a world, however.

Agreed.

So what remains to be determined is what to do when a woman gets pregnant and wants to terminate her pregnancy.

Here, I want to be very clear that when you use the words "what to do when a woman gets pregnant and wants to terminate her pregnancy", you aren't implying that pregnancy is something that "just unexpectedly happens" but rather is something that can very well result from the choice to engage in heterosexual intercourse (even when those people are actively trying to prevent pregnancy via usage of condoms, pills, etc).

The U.S. has now decided that individual states are to make the laws on this and they have.

Right. More technically, the current U.S. Supreme Court has overturned an unconstitutional ruling by a prior U.S. Supreme Court. It has always been constitutional that individual states make their own laws on this issue. Same goes for so-called "gay marriage", but that unconstitutional ruling hasn't been overturned yet.

U.S. citizens can vote with their feet, as well as regular votes and campaigns as to which laws they want to live with.

Right.

 

[gfm7175]

If only that were true.

It IS true. Now, obviously I made up the 0.000001% figure (or however many zeros I used in that comment of mine), but my point is that such instances are EXTREMELY low and that the VAAAAAST majority of abortions are done for convenience purposes, NOT "the common exceptions" purposes.

Brace yourself for the harsh reality:
**
Reports of forced intercourse remained high during the pandemic, with more than 25% of U.S. females over 40 reporting lifetime forced intercourse in the AFHS (number of females in AFHS: 1,042). There was a significant increase among females aged 24–28 (p<.05) and rates are highest for those who did not complete college. Among females 24–28, 32.5% (S.E. = 5.7%) with less than 4 years of college reported forced intercourse, a significantly (p<.05) higher rate than among those with higher education.

Conclusions:​

Rates of forced intercourse among U.S. women remained high during the pandemic, increasing significantly in early adulthood. This exposure to forced intercourse is likely to produce an increase in unintended pregnancies and other sexual, reproductive, and mental health problems.
**

Source:

Forced Intercourse in America: A Pandemic Update - PMC

Measures of forced intercourse from the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) indicate this a high prevalence among U.S. women that is likely to produce unintended pregnancies. However, NCHS did not measure forced intercourse during the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That's a survey of some people who claim that they've been raped, not a survey of some people who have had a rape result in a pregnancy and then decided to abort the child because of it.

Fact Sheet: Reasons for Abortion - Lozier Institute

Originally published on August 17, 2022, this fact sheet was updated on January 14, 2023, and again on May 24, 2024. After the Supreme Court ruling in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, states across the country have enacted laws that limit abortion. Frequently, these state laws make...

lozierinstitute.org

In this particular survey (I'm only mentioning it because you've already set the standard for throwing around random surveys and treating them as "holy"), it lists reasons for abortion. It says that 99.3% of abortions are performed for convenience purposes and that only 0.7% of abortions are performed due to "the common exceptions" purposes (rape, incest, life of the mother).

No, I don't agree with that link's claim that "abnormalities" and "physical health concerns" fall under "common exceptions" for abortion. They are, rather, a part of the "convenience purposes" category because those are cases of people not wanting to be inconvenienced by their child being born with an abnormality or a health issue. Those cases are NOT rape, incest, or life of the mother.

 

[AProudLefty]

Contract killing (i.e. an order done on an adult human being) is murder. A fetus is not an adult human being. A fetus under 6 weeks is not adult or conscious.

 

[IBDaMann]

Surely you understand the difference between a possibility and a certainty?

Yes. I, unlike you, accept math.

A person who drives a car without insurance doesn't "plan" to crash.

Correct. The person deliberately plans to drive the car, fully accepting the possibility of crashing.

This is worth repeating: The person deliberately plans to drive the car, accepting the full range of possibilities.

If anything, I imagine they'd be even more cautious on the road precisely because they don't have insurance.

Teachable moment. "A person" is singular. "They" is plural. This is very poor grammar. The pronoun "he" is required.

A man can and does end the lives of millions of sperm every day:

How many of the sperm have beating hearts? How many of the sperm have DNA that is distinct from the father?

 

[IBDaMann]

For the audience, IBDaMann changed the word "unplanned" to "unwanted" in the quote of mine above.

It would have been much easier, and much more honest, for you to have either quoted my explanation or simply linked to my explanation, rather than waste the bandwidth throwing up a smokescreen.

At the highest level, the "Unplanned Pregnancy" fallacy is a conflation of "arbitrary" with "random". Sex is an arbitrary decision with forseeable consequences, not a random, uncontrollable occurrence.

If a woman deliberately plans on having sex which has the obvious foreseeable consequence of pregnancy, then she is deliberately accepting the consequence of pregnancy which, if it occurs, was deliberately planned, not unplanned.

Therefore, at the level just below the highest level, the "Unplanned Pregnancy" fallacy is a semantic fallacy, i.e. dishonestly using the word "unplanned" instead of the correct word "unwanted." If a pregnant woman were to be honest and use the phrase "my unwanted pregnancy" then she would be forced to explain why she therefore had sex. Surreptitiously swapping in the word "unplanned" conceals the inconvenient responsibility, and resulting judgement, that the dishonest woman is trying to avoid.

How can a woman create a child whom she HATES enough to want to kill?
What person is so dishonest that he cannot refer to the killing of a living human as a "killing"?

 

[AProudLefty]

Nope. A contract killing is a killing performed on contract.

There are no age requirements, no legality requirements, no sentience requirements and no consciousness requirements.

Ok. Let's say we accept your definition of killing, what would your next argument be?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I believe that's how things should be because the man made the choice to inject the female via the vagina with his sperm.

The woman made a choice to allow him to do so.

After this point, I believe what the famel does with the sperm should be up to her.

After that point the two have made a contract and it should be jointly up to them what the outcome is.

Not her decision alone. As I already mentioned, the man choose to inject the woman via the vagina with sperm.

The woman allowed him to do so. If it were only his choice, and she got no say in being inseminated, that would amount to rape.

Had he not done so, there would be no sperm to become pregnant with.

If she had not done so, he would not have inseminated her unless it was an act of rape.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Ok. Let's say we accept your definition of killing, what would your next argument be?

Is Sybil afraid someone will slip him a lethal injection as Brian Kilmeade suggested?

 

[AProudLefty]

Is Sybil afraid someone will slip him a lethal injection as Brian Kilmeade suggested?

Who can say with his mind?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Who can say with his mind?

True. Most MAGAts are morons, demented and/or mentally ill. Maybe Brian's idea should be explored further?

 

[IBDaMann]

Let's say that [the killing of a living human who has not committed any crime and who has not expressed any desire to die] is a killing, what, next, would your argument be?

CTFY. The customer (code name: "patient") negotiates with the professional killer (code name: "doctor") on a price for the killer's "unaliving" services and makes sure that the killer will "dispose of the body". This negotiation is a personal matter between the customer and the professional killer, a contract is forged (often leaving a paper trail) and the target/victim gets no say in the matter ... none whatsoever.

 

[AProudLefty]

CTFY. The customer (code name: "patient") negotiates with the professional killer (code name: "doctor") on a price for the killer's "unaliving" services and makes sure that the killer will "dispose of the body". This negotiation is a personal matter between the customer and the professional killer, a contract is forged (often leaving a paper trail) and the target/victim gets no say in the matter ... none whatsoever.

Ok. So what is your next argument?

 

[gfm7175]

There's those twisted definitions again. I consider a fetus a fetus, a baby a baby and a child someone who's at an age where they can usually walk, some disabled children not withstanding. Have you considered that, consciously or unconsciously, you are saying child to muddy the waters?

I didn't know that 'child' was such a hard term to understand. It's basic genealogy. Have you considered that, consciously or unconsciously, you are saying fetus to muddy the waters?

The question you might want to ponder - is it truly only less than 1% of cases where coercion is involved?

That seems to be the case, yes.

Remember that statistic I quoted an earlier post of 25%+ women experiencing forced sexual intercourse in the U.S.

Yes. Remember that statistic I quoted in an earlier post of 0.4% of women citing "rape/incest" as the reason for getting an abortion?

 

[gfm7175]

Why, simply because he inseminated the woman?

Because he is the father of that living human.

We have already agreed that it's a hell of a lot easier to inseminate a woman then it is to carry a pregnancy to term.

That we did.

I decided to ask chatGPT how much sperm a man produces a day. Here's its answer:
**
On average, a healthy man produces about 50 to 100 million sperm per day.

Here’s a breakdown:

• Each testicle contains tiny tubes (seminiferous tubules) where sperm are made.
• Spermatogenesis (the process of making sperm) takes about 64–72 days from start to finish.
• At any given moment, billions of sperm are in different stages of development.
• By adulthood, production is essentially continuous: roughly 1,000–1,500 sperm every second.

**

A man will replace the batch of sperm he invested in a woman's pregnancy in short order. A woman, on the hand, would have to be pregnant for 9 months in order to produce a baby from a sperm.

I agree that sperm "is replaced" in short order. I agree that the pregnancy process takes roughly 9 months. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with abortion being (or not being, as you claim but refuse to substantiate) contract killings.

 

[gfm7175]

I think it's clear, especially further down in your post, that your goal is to obfuscate the fact that abortions are only about removing fetuses from pregnant women. Anyway, let's continue...

You continue to obfuscate by continuing to use the term 'fetuses' rather than the term 'living humans'. Abortion is about a pregnant woman contracting with a professional killer to kill the living human that is in her womb.

 

[gfm7175]

I suspect we're simply not going to be able to agree here.

I suspect likewise. You still haven't provided any logic for how abortions somehow aren't contract killings (after being provided with logic for how abortions ARE a subset of contract killings).