APP - Do biological viruses actually exist?

I suspect it's more that he thinks that's more likely. I think the fact that he also includes the theory that the polio virus doesn't exist suggests that he think it's -possible- that that theory may be correct. More importantly, -I- think that that theory is correct, and you're debating the issue with me, not him.
Talk about confirmation bias. One can't read his article and possibly come to that conclusion since he spends 14 parts talking about the virus and then less than one paragraph in part 15 were he mentions it as one of the critiques of his other 14 parts.

The fact that he includes it as one of his critiques simply means he is honest enough to include critiques. Something your main sources never do.
 
Not what I said. I'll be a bit more precise this time to try to avoid you misunderstanding me. I found Dan Olmsted's evidence suggesting that polio may have been caused by other factors to be compelling. I don't find his notion that an alleged polio virus may have played a role to be compelling. For those who haven't yet seen Dan Olmstead's article on polio, it can be seen here:
You don't find the entire premise of Dan Olmsted's article to be compelling but you find his evidence to be compelling?
The entire premise is that the virus exists and that arsenic in sugar from Hawaii made it more virulent. At one point, he references his earlier work with Mark Blaxill that he is building on. That work can be found here and is entitled -

The Age of Polio: How an Old Virus and New Toxins Triggered a Man-Made Epidemic

The entire premise is based on the polio virus existing. The entire work is based on the polio virus existing. He goes into lengthy detail about how the virus attacks the body. All his "evidence" is based on the polio virus existing.

in 1 or 2 in 100 cases, the virus somehow gets past multiple defenses and into the nervous system, where it finds its way to the anterior horn cells at the top front of the spinal column. There, it preferentially attacks the gray-colored motor neurons (polio means gray in Greek) and causes inflammation of the protective myelin sheath (myelitis). This interferes with nerve signals to the muscles and can lead to temporary or permanent paralysis of the limbs and the respiratory system.
 
Agreed. However, in this case, Mike Stone didn't say it. I realized it on my own. From what I've read, the first method virologists used to "discover" biological viruses depended on seeing CPE, or the CytoPathic Effect, to be precise. Mike Stone's mentioned it many times and I then remembered that this same method is used in the most recent alleged "discoveries" of biological viruses, such as the Cov 2 virus, alleged to be the cause of Covid 19.
I am curious how you remembered this is the method used to discover the Cov 2 virus since it was not the method used at all. You have been presented with the original paper and didn't bother to read it.

Mark Bailey wrote a 67 page essay detailing why virology is pseudoscience, and he used the "discovery" of the alleged Cov 2 virus as an example of how this pseudoscience works. I've shown it to you in the past, but for those who haven't seen it, his essay can be seen here:
Mark Bailey spent 67 pages spouting logical fallacies and pushing pseudoscience. Your link is wrong. Mark Stone is not Mark Bailey
 
The main issue here is that neither I, nor anyone else I've cited, has asserted that DDT is the -sole- cause of polio. As a matter of fact, people I've cited have only asserted that it looks like DDT may be -a- cause of polio.
If you or no one else has ever brought up DDT as a cause of polio then what in the hell are you even bringing it up for?
Dan Olmstead has never once said that DDT may be the cause of polio. Dan Olmstead has said that a virus is the cause of polio. At this point you are outright lying about the position you have taken.
 
By all means, attempt to provide solid evidence that any parasite alleged to be a biological virus actually replicates "within a host cell".
This has been done repeatedly and you simply refuse to look at the evidence. Whenever you bring up the PCR test, you admit that it can be replicated within a host cell since the entire basis of the PCR test is that it requires more than one of the viruses to run the test.
 
I see you haven't yet arrived at the part where I bring up the article that mentions multiple pesticides as possible causes of polio. I'll get to that in the next post.



If you have a better chart, by all means, provide it. Right now, that chart is the best I have.
Right now that chart is pseudoscience since it does not provide the actual data. I guess you are admitting that all you have is pseudoscience.
 
I haven't seen any solid evidence that that chart shows nothing more than "random correlation". To me, it looks like a solid correlation between these pesticides and polio.
I see you are just going to ignore the very real and evident fact that the chart does not list or provide any axis that shows what quantities it is using.
Without quantities, the chart is bogus. It is not science. It is not math. It is not just flawed but is absolute hogwash. It can't show a correlation because it doesn't actually show anything. It is a random line that doesn't relate to any actual data about pesticides.
 
I haven't seen any solid evidence that that chart shows nothing more than "random correlation". To me, it looks like a solid correlation between these pesticides and polio.
At this point, you have ignored the scientific method twice when I introduced it so I will bring it up again.

Let's examine the scientific method.
The scientific method is this -

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ID/ID-507-w.pdf

State the problem
Form a hypothesis
Observe and Experiment
Interpret Data
Draw Conclusions
(Revise the hypothesis as needed and repeat)

Do you agree that this is the scientific method?
Do you agree that something that fails to use this method is conducting pseudoscience?


Until you are willing to actually look at and discuss the scientific method we can't move forward with anything since it is required to address your claims of pseudoscience.
 
For starters, Tessa Lena stated that polio wasn't officially eradicated in the U.S. until 1979. Secondly, while DDt may not have been banned until 1972, its production was severely curtailed by the early 60s. Perhaps most important of all, however, Tessa Lena never argued that DDT was the only possible cause of polio. Looking through her article, I came upon another article that I've seen before and that has a graph that I think is interesting. I'll share it below:
**
Pesticide Composite: Summary

Just over three billion pounds of persistent pesticides are represented in the graph below.

Virtually all peaks and valleys correlate with a direct one-to-one relationship with each pesticide as it enters and leaves the US market. Generally, pesticide production precedes polio incidence by 1 to 2 years. I assume that this variation is due to variations in reporting methods and the time it takes to move pesticides from factory to warehouse, through distribution channels, onto the food crops and to the dinner table.

A composite of the three previous graphs, of the persistent pesticides -- lead, arsenic, and the dominant organochlorines (DDT and BHC) -- is represented in the following:

View attachment 56019

These four chemicals were not selected arbitrarily. These are representative of the major pesticides in use during the last major polio epidemic. They persist in the environment as neurotoxins that cause polio-like symptoms, polio-like physiology, and were dumped onto and into human food at dosage levels far above that approved by the FDA. They directly correlate with the incidence of various neurological diseases called "polio" before 1965. They were utilized, according to Biskind, in the "most intensive campaign of mass poisoning in known human history."
**

Source:
As a side note, your chart lists work by Hayes and Lawes who did extensive work in DDT.

This is from Hayes in 1969 about DDT.


Eat Salmon With DDT For Years Without Harmful Effect , Says Professor

You can eat Coho Salmon containing 19 parts per million of DDT , mornmg , noon , and night as your total diet for a least 19 years without any harmful effect . Dr Wayland J . Hayes , foimer Chief of Toxicology of the United States Public Health Seivice , testified as DDT heaimgs resumed in Madison Di Hayes based his conclusion on the results of his research with DDT factory workers with intensive exposure , and with human volunteers to whom DDT was fed at higher levels without ill effect Dr Hayes


This seems to be pattern with you and your sources. The actual work you cite often directly contradicts your claims. This is further evidence of your side cherry picking select things and ignoring 99% of the rest of the work so you can confirm your bias.

It appears you didn't really pay attention to how the work of Hayes and Laws was referred to in Jim West's article. The article certainly -starts- with a warning from Hayes and Laws. To whit:
**
It has been alleged that DDT causes or contributes to a wide variety of diseases of humans and animals not previously recognized as associated with any chemical. Such diseases included... poliomyelitis, ...such irresponsible claims could produce great harm and, if taken seriously, even interfere with scientific search for true causes...[1] (Handbook of Pesticide Toxicology, edited by Wayland J. Hayes, Jr. and Edward R. Laws, 1991)
**

But -immediately- after that bit, Jim West counters with the following:
**
Hayes and Laws were informing their readers about the heretic, Dr. Morton S. Biskind.

In 1953, when Biskind's writings were published, the United States had just endured its greatest polio epidemic. The entire public was steeped in dramatic images -- a predatory poliovirus, nearly a million dead and paralyzed children, iron lungs, struggling doctors and dedicated nurses. The late president Franklin D. Roosevelt had been memorialized as a polio victim who was infected with the deadly poliovirus near the beautiful and remote island of Campobello. The media was saturated with positive images of scientific progress and the marvels of DDT to kill disease-carrying mosquitoes. Jonas Salk was in the wings, preparing to be moved center stage.

Through this intellectually paralyzing atmosphere, Dr. Biskind had the composure to argue what he thought was the most obvious explanation for the polio epidemic: Central nervous system diseases such as polio are actually the physiological and symptomatic manifestations of the ongoing government and industry sponsored inundation of the world's populace with central nervous system poisons.

Today, few remember this poignant writer who struggled with the issues of pesticides, issues that Rachel Carson would be allowed to politely bring to public awareness nine years later, as the lead story in The New Yorker magazine and then as a national best seller, by limiting her focus to the environment and wildlife. Biskind had the audacity to write about human damage.

I found "M.S. Biskind" in the endnotes to Hayes' and Laws' diatribe. What could possibly have motivated Hayes' and Laws' biased genuflection towards germ theory? Such offerings, commonly written into the final paragraphs of scientific articles, are usually done with an appearance of impartiality. With great anticipation, I went to a medical library and found Biskind's 10-page 1953 article in the American Journal of Digestive Diseases. [2] Presented below are excerpts regarding polio from his article.

In 1945, against the advice of investigators who had studied the pharmacology of the compound and found it dangerous for all forms of life, DDT (chlorophenoethane, dichlorodiphenyl-trichloroethane) was released in the United States and other countries for general use by the public as an insecticide.
[...]
Since the last war there have been a number of curious changes in the incidence of certain ailments and the development of new syndromes never before observed. A most significant feature of this situation is that both man and all his domestic animals have simultaneously been affected.
In man, the incidence of poliomyelitis has risen sharply;
[...]
It was even known by 1945 that DDT is stored in the body fat of mammals and appears in the milk. With this foreknowledge the series of catastrophic events that followed the most intensive campaign of mass poisoning in known human history, should not have surprised the experts. Yet, far from admitting a causal relationship so obvious that in any other field of biology it would be instantly accepted, virtually the entire apparatus of communication, lay and scientific alike, has been devoted to denying, concealing, suppressing, distorting and attempts to convert into its opposite, the overwhelming evidence. Libel, slander and economic boycott have not been overlooked in this campaign.
[...]
Early in 1949, as a result of studies during the previous year, the author published reports implicating DDT preparations in the syndrome widely attributed to a "virus-X" in man, in "X-disease" in cattle and in often fatal syndromes in dogs and cats. The relationship was promptly denied by government officials, who provided no evidence to contest the author's observations but relied solely on the prestige of government authority and sheer numbers of experts to bolster their position.
[...]
["X-disease"] ...studied by the author following known exposure to DDT and related compounds and over and over again in the same patients, each time following known exposure. We have described the syndrome as follows:
...In acute exacerbations, mild clonic convulsions involving mainly the legs, have been observed. Several young children exposed to DDT developed a limp lasting from 2 or 3 days to a week or more.
[...]
Simultaneously with the occurrence of this disorder [X-disease] a number of related changes occurred in the incidence of known diseases. The most striking of these is poliomyelitis. In the United States the incidence of polio had been increasing prior to 1945 at a fairly constant rate, but its epidemiologic characteristics remained unchanged. Beginning in 1946 the rate of increase more than doubled. Since then remarkable changes in the character of the disease have been noted. Contrary to all past experience, the disease has remained epidemic year after year.
**

Source:
 
It appears you didn't really pay attention to how the work of Hayes and Laws was referred to in Jim West's article. The article certainly -starts- with a warning from Hayes and Laws. To whit:
**
It has been alleged that DDT causes or contributes to a wide variety of diseases of humans and animals not previously recognized as associated with any chemical. Such diseases included... poliomyelitis, ...such irresponsible claims could produce great harm and, if taken seriously, even interfere with scientific search for true causes...[1] (Handbook of Pesticide Toxicology, edited by Wayland J. Hayes, Jr. and Edward R. Laws, 1991)
**

But -immediately- after that bit, Jim West counters with the following:
**
Hayes and Laws were informing their readers about the heretic, Dr. Morton S. Biskind.

In 1953, when Biskind's writings were published, the United States had just endured its greatest polio epidemic. The entire public was steeped in dramatic images -- a predatory poliovirus, nearly a million dead and paralyzed children, iron lungs, struggling doctors and dedicated nurses. The late president Franklin D. Roosevelt had been memorialized as a polio victim who was infected with the deadly poliovirus near the beautiful and remote island of Campobello. The media was saturated with positive images of scientific progress and the marvels of DDT to kill disease-carrying mosquitoes. Jonas Salk was in the wings, preparing to be moved center stage.

Through this intellectually paralyzing atmosphere, Dr. Biskind had the composure to argue what he thought was the most obvious explanation for the polio epidemic: Central nervous system diseases such as polio are actually the physiological and symptomatic manifestations of the ongoing government and industry sponsored inundation of the world's populace with central nervous system poisons.

Today, few remember this poignant writer who struggled with the issues of pesticides, issues that Rachel Carson would be allowed to politely bring to public awareness nine years later, as the lead story in The New Yorker magazine and then as a national best seller, by limiting her focus to the environment and wildlife. Biskind had the audacity to write about human damage.

I found "M.S. Biskind" in the endnotes to Hayes' and Laws' diatribe. What could possibly have motivated Hayes' and Laws' biased genuflection towards germ theory? Such offerings, commonly written into the final paragraphs of scientific articles, are usually done with an appearance of impartiality. With great anticipation, I went to a medical library and found Biskind's 10-page 1953 article in the American Journal of Digestive Diseases. [2] Presented below are excerpts regarding polio from his article.

In 1945, against the advice of investigators who had studied the pharmacology of the compound and found it dangerous for all forms of life, DDT (chlorophenoethane, dichlorodiphenyl-trichloroethane) was released in the United States and other countries for general use by the public as an insecticide.
[...]

Since the last war there have been a number of curious changes in the incidence of certain ailments and the development of new syndromes never before observed. A most significant feature of this situation is that both man and all his domestic animals have simultaneously been affected.
In man, the incidence of poliomyelitis has risen sharply;
[...]

It was even known by 1945 that DDT is stored in the body fat of mammals and appears in the milk. With this foreknowledge the series of catastrophic events that followed the most intensive campaign of mass poisoning in known human history, should not have surprised the experts. Yet, far from admitting a causal relationship so obvious that in any other field of biology it would be instantly accepted, virtually the entire apparatus of communication, lay and scientific alike, has been devoted to denying, concealing, suppressing, distorting and attempts to convert into its opposite, the overwhelming evidence. Libel, slander and economic boycott have not been overlooked in this campaign.
[...]

Early in 1949, as a result of studies during the previous year, the author published reports implicating DDT preparations in the syndrome widely attributed to a "virus-X" in man, in "X-disease" in cattle and in often fatal syndromes in dogs and cats. The relationship was promptly denied by government officials, who provided no evidence to contest the author's observations but relied solely on the prestige of government authority and sheer numbers of experts to bolster their position.
[...]

["X-disease"] ...studied by the author following known exposure to DDT and related compounds and over and over again in the same patients, each time following known exposure. We have described the syndrome as follows:
...In acute exacerbations, mild clonic convulsions involving mainly the legs, have been observed. Several young children exposed to DDT developed a limp lasting from 2 or 3 days to a week or more.
[...]

Simultaneously with the occurrence of this disorder [X-disease] a number of related changes occurred in the incidence of known diseases. The most striking of these is poliomyelitis. In the United States the incidence of polio had been increasing prior to 1945 at a fairly constant rate, but its epidemiologic characteristics remained unchanged. Beginning in 1946 the rate of increase more than doubled. Since then remarkable changes in the character of the disease have been noted. Contrary to all past experience, the disease has remained epidemic year after year.
**

Source:
No. I did read it which is why I did the research to look up Hayes and Lawes and read their actual work which is pretty extensive when it comes to DDT.

And there it is again. Your source relying on outdated science while pretending it is still valid science.
Biskind's writings were shown to be unscientific when in 1955 a vaccine was introduced which reduced the number of cases of Polio.
But as Hayes showed, the build up of DDT in the human body was not poisonous and didn't cause paralysis. But instead of relying on Hayes work from 1969-2011, you rely on someone else's work from 1945-1953 that was disproved by Hayes.
 
You're deflecting. The issue here is whether there is any solid evidence that biological viruses exist, not what is causing illnesses.
I'm not deflecting and I'm not wasting my time reading 20 more paragraphs of ridiculous conspiracy theory nonsense.

The evidence is clear and abundant that biological viruses exist. Not only that, it would be impossible for the scientific world to a) fool the masses for decades and b) for everyone involved to keep 100% quiet on what is happening.

The onus is on you to support your claim, not vice versa. Again, the scientific world doesn't need to prove the earth is round to flat-earthers. Those who believe in a sphere Earth are on the side of reason and sanity.

If you're going to be a "flat earther", which you are the medical/scientific version of, then you should be questioning a whole lot more than viruses. What proof is there that food poisoning exists? If biological viruses don't exist, then what causes what we now consider measles spots and, more importantly, how do you intend to prove THAT cause exists?
 
I'm not deflecting and I'm not wasting my time reading 20 more paragraphs of ridiculous conspiracy theory nonsense.

The evidence is clear and abundant that biological viruses exist. Not only that, it would be impossible for the scientific world to a) fool the masses for decades and b) for everyone involved to keep 100% quiet on what is happening.

The onus is on you to support your claim, not vice versa. Again, the scientific world doesn't need to prove the earth is round to flat-earthers. Those who believe in a sphere Earth are on the side of reason and sanity.

If you're going to be a "flat earther", which you are the medical/scientific version of, then you should be questioning a whole lot more than viruses. What proof is there that food poisoning exists? If biological viruses don't exist, then what causes what we now consider measles spots and, more importantly, how do you intend to prove THAT cause exists?
Another good question, since nobody makes that insecticide any longer, how is it that Polio is back on the rise and why does it only return in places with challenges to vaccination?

 
Another good question, since nobody makes that insecticide any longer, how is it that Polio is back on the rise and why does it only return in places with challenges to vaccination?

Whoa. Take it easy. One step at a
Another good question, since nobody makes that insecticide any longer, how is it that Polio is back on the rise and why does it only return in places with challenges to vaccination?

Whoa! Hold on. I'm going to need you to prove Polio exists before we go any further.

Thanks.
 
I refuse to discuss what?

My refusal to look at what, your 20 papers that you believe offer solid evidence that biological viruses exist? As I've said before, I'm not averse to looking at selected quoted passages that you think make your case, but I'm not going to go on a fishing expedition to try to find evidence for your position. I call that asking your opponent to do your homework for you. If you think there's something within those papers that makes your case, quote it and then provide the reference to the paper(s) in question.
Bottom line - you refuse to look at evidence and then claim you have seen no evidence.
No, I refuse to do your homework for you. If you believe one or more papers has evidence that bolsters your viewpoint, present it as I do- by quoting the relevant material and then linking your source.
 
The evidence that biological viruses exist far....faaaaaar outweighs the evidence that they don't.
We clearly disagree on that point.
You can only disagree because you are only willing to look at evidence that confirms your bias.

As I've said before, I'm perfectly willing to look at information that my ideological opponents consider to be evidence that bolsters their claims, but it needs to be focused- some select quotes, followed by a link to a source is a good way of doing that.
 
Your assertion above starts with an assumption that I don't share, that being that anything involved with the study of biological viruses is scientific.
Correct. You have said that biology is comparable to religion, specifically Scientology.

No, I said that -virology- is comparable to scientology. I do believe that some religions appreciate the scientific method, or at least some of its practitioners. I've cited Albert Einstein, who was jewish, but was also rather famous for pioneering some great scientific theories in his time.
 
As I've said before, I'm perfectly willing to look at information that my ideological opponents consider to be evidence that bolsters their claims, but it needs to be focused- some select quotes, followed by a link to a source is a good way of doing that.
Right.... As I said, you are the flat earther claiming that the rest of the world needs to prove the Earth is spherical. If you had any legitimate intellectual curiosity, you would have already been looking at information from so-called "ideological opponents" and wouldn't just now be looking for it.
 
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As to HIV in particular, there's a website dedicated to questioning whether or not the HIV virus exists.
It seems pretty clear that you have gotten yourself into the same type of confirmation bias that leads people to believe the earth is flat, but you don't realize that you've gotten yourself into that situation.

I could say that you yourself have fallen into this same type of confirmation bias, only for you it'd be just confirming that biological viruses are real.
 
Just like the signatories of the "Settling the Virus Debate" statement, quoted and referenced in the opening post of this thread, they too have a statement on what would be needed to prove or disprove the HIV theory of AIDS. It can be seen here:
Again, We are back to the Grand conspiracy thing

No, -you- are back to the "Grand conspiracy thing". I'm just poining out that people tend to believe things with little to no evidence, much as many do with most religions, so long as there are authority figures they trust who say it's true.
 
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