Birth of Jesus - Christmas

Margot said:
Didn't A Prophet tell Cypress, YHWH is waiting for Cypress to take a single step in Faith? How hard is that?
Risk ,reward situation!
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Hey, I know it is extremely common for believers of many stripes to not only worship but actually VALUE a God who plays that kind of game. Go in peace and enjoy your faith if it brings you comfort.

I should just shut up when I encounter a version of God that makes literally no sense to me. Sorry I butted in.
 
anonymoose said:
4th option: God impregnated Mary. Makes the most sense.
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Then you would have to explain why Mary in Mark's gospel - which predates Luke and Mathew - doesn't seem to know Jesus is son of God. Mary and Jesus' siblings hear about his ministry and faith healings and seem to think Jesus has gone mad

If the angel Gabriel came to tell Mary the holy spirit would cause her to give birth to the Son of God, why does Mary seem to not understand who Jesus is in Mark's gospel?
 
Daylight63 said:
Remember the bounds of the OP. The OP is predicated on the concept that if one is accepts that the Nativity narrative is, at it's heart, a real historical event but one doesn't believe in the supernatural aspect, the goal is to then created a version of the story that would, a prior, appear to be the Nativity narrative but without the supernatural stuff.

As such the supernatural things aren't really in consideration here for the purposes of this discussion.
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#2 is supernatural
 
Cypress said:
Then you would have to explain why Mary in Mark's gospel - which predates Luke and Mathew - doesn't seem to know Jesus is son of God.
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An explanation would be that she wasn’t sure who the father was.

Mary and Jesus' siblings hear about his ministry and faith healings and seem to think Jesus has gone mad
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To declare that he was King of the Jews would give that idea serious consideration.
Especially knowing if that got back to Caesar he’d be executed.

If the angel Gabriel came to tell Mary the holy spirit would cause her to give birth to the Son of God, why does Mary seem to not understand who Jesus is in Mark's gospel?
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Because no angel told Mary anything.
 
Margot said:
Isaiah 7:14 Had already been written, if Mary didn't give a virgin birth to Jesus, Isaiah 7:14 ,wouldn't be in the book!
Paul,Mark,Peter,James and John are off stage!
Sooner or later you have to decide what you truly believe.
There's only one real question in Christianity, or Judaism, possibly Islam! That question is Jesus was either YHWH incarnate in the flesh! Or he wasn't! Everything else is a side issue! Why is this important now? Your soul,and time is short,And it's something you can't sit on the fence!
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One doesn't have to accept a miraculous virgin birth narrative to be open to the possibility that certain individuals are fated to be agents of providential or transcendental authority. A miraculous virgin birth didn't seem to matter to Christians of the first century prior to the appearance of the Gospel of Matthew.
 
Cypress said:
A premarital pregnancy would have been a scandal in first century Jewish Galilee, bringing dishonor to the family of the woman.

Most scholars are predisposed to accept a historical reality of Mary becoming pregnant outside of wedlock. When such a damaging story appears in the gospels the underlying oral or written tradition was too persistent to ignore by first century authors. The Babylonian Torah seems to claim Mary was impregnated by a Roman soldier.

Luke and Matthew get around this problem by using the Hebrew Bible to frame the birth of Jesus in a theological context. The question is whether the birth narratives in Luke and Matthew are only based on prophecy, or based on an authentic and long standing oral tradition.

The miraculous virgin birth narrative is only briefly mentioned in Luke and Matthew, composed around 80 to 85 AD.

Authors writing much earlier, Paul and Mark, make no mention of a virgin birth. Paul seems to allude that Jesus did not become divine until after he was crucified.

John and the author of Peter I and II make no mention of a virgin birth.

The gnostic gospel of Thomas and the other recognized Gnostic writings do not mention a virgin birth.

It is remarkable that an event so momentous and unprecedented as a virgin birth fulfilling Hebrew prophecy is not mentioned by these other authors.

Conclusion: the miraculous Virgin birth narrative is a later legendary account composed and framed by Luke and Matthew for theological reasons.
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Agreed on the conclusions. God created the laws of the Universe. IMO, God never cheats on the rules. Ergo, no such thing as magic or anything else that violates God's natural laws including "virgin births".

Regarding the Roman soldier story, was it consensual or rape? Romans were pretty well known for being rapists....just like those in the MAGA party.
 
Cypress said:
Shouldn't be offensive. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I can't say definitively that miracles are impossible, but Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, and historians are all entitled to come to their own opinions about Jesus.
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I've never seen a miracle that couldn't be explained by odds or "luck".

Isn't it odd that there were many "miracles" reported in ancient times yet not modern times? I know the Catholic church looks into some things such miracles and sainthood, but, again, I'm not buying as something other than misperception or just the odds.

Consider the Trump assassination. Some claim it was divine providence that he survived. Does that mean God hates the two people who were killed, including the nutjob shooting at Trump, and the two people severely wounded? No, since, IMO, God is all merciful. It's just the odds and examples of human beings making choices.
 
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