Poor Toyota...

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I just wanted to say!

I have been a Toyota owner since 1978, when I bought a '71 Corona MkII for $300, drove the piss out of it for 13 more years... the trunk was rusted out when I bought it... speedo cable broke at about 290k, and I drove it another year like that... so well over 300k miles out of the car, and it was hardly pampered. Then I sold it for $400 in '83... yes, I made a profit! Bought a new Corolla, drove it for the next 15 years... So on and so on... I've had nothing but reliability and dependability out of all but one I owned... The '88 Supra sucked... too heavy, prone to head gasket failure, and rode like a go cart.

I realize they are under heavy scrutiny now, and the public relations nightmare is something they will likely not be able to overcome. If they do, it will probably never be the same for them again, they have pretty much been destroyed. And it just continues to grow, prompting Senate investigations and such....

But... Is it just me and my bias toward Toyotas, or is there something really funny smelling in all of this? I'm generally not one for conspiracy theories, but IF that were something I were inclined to believe in... Isn't it ironic that the people questioning Toyota on Capitol Hill, are effectively the CFO's of GM, and Toyota is the leading car importer? Isn't that somewhat of a 'conflict of interest' or something?

Then, there is "The Problem" itself... does anyone have any idea what causes this phantom acceleration yet? They first thought it was the gas pedals, then the floor mat, then it turned into an electronic problem, but that has been questioned lately... there really hasn't been a definitive answer to what is causing the problem. Toyota is ruined... their reputation is shot now... They won't ever be able to compete in the American market again, on anything near the scale they once did... and we don't even really know what the problem is? Doesn't that strike you as odd?

Finally, what do you think the chances are, if this "problem" had been encountered on a GM car.... we would have heard so much hullabaloo about it? Or would we even have heard about it at all? Certainly, the willing accomplices in the mainstream media, would have done their best to downplay anything negative about GM, to help the government out... it's what they do! Would the NHTSA do the same? And if they would go out of their way to "help" a Government car company, why wouldn't they do the same thing to destroy one? ....I'm just saying!

 

[cancel2 2022]

I just wanted to say!

I have been a Toyota owner since 1978, when I bought a '71 Corona MkII for $300, drove the piss out of it for 13 more years... the trunk was rusted out when I bought it... speedo cable broke at about 290k, and I drove it another year like that... so well over 300k miles out of the car, and it was hardly pampered. Then I sold it for $400 in '83... yes, I made a profit! Bought a new Corolla, drove it for the next 15 years... So on and so on... I've had nothing but reliability and dependability out of all but one I owned... The '88 Supra sucked... too heavy, prone to head gasket failure, and rode like a go cart.

I realize they are under heavy scrutiny now, and the public relations nightmare is something they will likely not be able to overcome. If they do, it will probably never be the same for them again, they have pretty much been destroyed. And it just continues to grow, prompting Senate investigations and such....

But... Is it just me and my bias toward Toyotas, or is there something really funny smelling in all of this? I'm generally not one for conspiracy theories, but IF that were something I were inclined to believe in... Isn't it ironic that the people questioning Toyota on Capitol Hill, are effectively the CFO's of GM, and Toyota is the leading car importer? Isn't that somewhat of a 'conflict of interest' or something?

Then, there is "The Problem" itself... does anyone have any idea what causes this phantom acceleration yet? They first thought it was the gas pedals, then the floor mat, then it turned into an electronic problem, but that has been questioned lately... there really hasn't been a definitive answer to what is causing the problem. Toyota is ruined... their reputation is shot now... They won't ever be able to compete in the American market again, on anything near the scale they once did... and we don't even really know what the problem is? Doesn't that strike you as odd?

Finally, what do you think the chances are, if this "problem" had been encountered on a GM car.... we would have heard so much hullabaloo about it? Or would we even have heard about it at all? Certainly, the willing accomplices in the mainstream media, would have done their best to downplay anything negative about GM, to help the government out... it's what they do! Would the NHTSA do the same? And if they would go out of their way to "help" a Government car company, why wouldn't they do the same thing to destroy one? ....I'm just saying!

I can't help agreeing that Toyota had been vilified and subject to a incredibly nasty media campaign. Whether it was orchestrated or not, I cannot say but it certainly seems to have the mark of vested interests at work.

I don't think that Toyota will suffer too badly in the longer term though, people have short memories.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I can't help agreeing that Toyota had been vilified and subject to a incredibly nasty media campaign. Whether it was orchestrated or not, I cannot say but it certainly seems to have the mark of vested interests at work.

I don't think that Toyota will suffer too badly in the longer term though, people have short memories.

Hmm... I don't know about that... there is a reason we no longer drive Pinto's! The auto market is very finicky already, add something like this, especially if they are never vindicated... I don't know the brand can survive. I think if they do, it will be a much smaller share of the market, I would still buy a Toyota... not sure I would want my daughter driving one... and that will be the problem Toyota faces with the consumer going forward. Maybe they go all-green and build eco-cars? Or maybe they have to return to the basics... build cars that are well-engineered but simple, practical, something anyone can work on, easy to repair, not a lot of bells and whistles and electronic computer stuff to fail and cause disaster... No matter what, I don't see a scenario where Toyota survives as the Toyota we know.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Hmm... I don't know about that... there is a reason we no longer drive Pinto's! The auto market is very finicky already, add something like this, especially if they are never vindicated... I don't know the brand can survive. I think if they do, it will be a much smaller share of the market, I would still buy a Toyota... not sure I would want my daughter driving one... and that will be the problem Toyota faces with the consumer going forward. Maybe they go all-green and build eco-cars? Or maybe they have to return to the basics... build cars that are well-engineered but simple, practical, something anyone can work on, easy to repair, not a lot of bells and whistles and electronic computer stuff to fail and cause disaster... No matter what, I don't see a scenario where Toyota survives as the Toyota we know.

I can't really speak for the vagaries of the US consumer but it caused a stir for about 15 minutes over here and now seems to have blown over.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I just wanted to say!

I have been a Toyota owner since 1978, when I bought a '71 Corona MkII for $300, drove the piss out of it for 13 more years... the trunk was rusted out when I bought it... speedo cable broke at about 290k, and I drove it another year like that... so well over 300k miles out of the car, and it was hardly pampered. Then I sold it for $400 in '83... yes, I made a profit! Bought a new Corolla, drove it for the next 15 years... So on and so on... I've had nothing but reliability and dependability out of all but one I owned... The '88 Supra sucked... too heavy, prone to head gasket failure, and rode like a go cart.

I realize they are under heavy scrutiny now, and the public relations nightmare is something they will likely not be able to overcome. If they do, it will probably never be the same for them again, they have pretty much been destroyed. And it just continues to grow, prompting Senate investigations and such....

But... Is it just me and my bias toward Toyotas, or is there something really funny smelling in all of this? I'm generally not one for conspiracy theories, but IF that were something I were inclined to believe in... Isn't it ironic that the people questioning Toyota on Capitol Hill, are effectively the CFO's of GM, and Toyota is the leading car importer? Isn't that somewhat of a 'conflict of interest' or something?

Then, there is "The Problem" itself... does anyone have any idea what causes this phantom acceleration yet? They first thought it was the gas pedals, then the floor mat, then it turned into an electronic problem, but that has been questioned lately... there really hasn't been a definitive answer to what is causing the problem. Toyota is ruined... their reputation is shot now... They won't ever be able to compete in the American market again, on anything near the scale they once did... and we don't even really know what the problem is? Doesn't that strike you as odd?

Finally, what do you think the chances are, if this "problem" had been encountered on a GM car.... we would have heard so much hullabaloo about it? Or would we even have heard about it at all? Certainly, the willing accomplices in the mainstream media, would have done their best to downplay anything negative about GM, to help the government out... it's what they do! Would the NHTSA do the same? And if they would go out of their way to "help" a Government car company, why wouldn't they do the same thing to destroy one? ....I'm just saying!

Well Dixie I do agree with you about a conflict of interest. The CEO's at GM and Ford certainly have a conflict of interests. So do a certain Senator from Michigan and a certain congressman from Detroit.

I think what is unfortunate for Toyota, that ironically forced modern style Demming quality management systems upon the US auto manufacturers is that they got away from the quality practices they were known for.

I know, you going to shake your head in disbelief and say "Toyota?" but it's true non the less.

Toyota's big mistake is that they confused process control with quality control and there's a significant difference between the two.

Process control, that is being a process centered organization, is about understanding and defining your entire business models inputs and outputs and how to manage those inputs so as to achieve the desired out puts. Toyota was and is still fabulous about doing this.

Quality Control are the controls placed on the manufacture, distribution, and/or sales of products and services to assure customers that the quality of the goods and services will remain at the industry's or manufacturer's standard for quality throughout all areas of production and sales.

What's the problem then? Toyota made a classic quality control error in two areas.

#1. Process control decisions became rigidly hierarchical. A line worker may be able to stop the entire production line at Toyota if a problem was detected but the decision about what course of action had to be taken had to go completely back to Japan and decided at the very top of the organization then communicated back to US operations before being implemented. This "Top Down" form of process control was a disincentive to communicate process control problems up the chain of command. Thus a loss of process control.

#2. Notice how in the definition of quality control I placed the word "customer" in bold type? That's because the customer interface is the key difference between quality control and process control. How well you manage the inputs and outputs of your business model means little if the customer is not happy with your product or service. Because of the first issue, a rigid hierarchy in decision making, Toyota distanced themselves from the feed back they were receiving from their customers about the issues with electronic controls and accelerations and thus this problem was not quickly and adequately corrected.

That was really Toyota's big mistake. Their top management had placed to much distance between themselves and their customer and quality, something Toyota is rightfully famous for suffered.

Toyota will suffer for this, as did Ford with the Pinto fiasco, but will survive. The interesting thing is will they have learned their lesson about quality control?

 

[Timshel]

Good point, Dixie. I hadn't even really thought about it being orchestrated. You are correct that the governments involvement with GM will likely cause conflicts of interest between the welfare of GM and the government's interest in safety and consumer protection. However, I agree with the others that Toyota will probably recover most of its market share.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I can't help agreeing that Toyota had been vilified and subject to a incredibly nasty media campaign. Whether it was orchestrated or not, I cannot say but it certainly seems to have the mark of vested interests at work.

I don't think that Toyota will suffer too badly in the longer term though, people have short memories.

You're wrong Tom. Toyota made a huge mistake that resulted in a serious safety issue that cost injuries, lives and property damage. I see this as no different then the gas tank issue of the Ford Pinto's and Ford was publicly vilified to a much greater extent then what Toyota is going through now.

There's no way to sugar coat this. Toyota made serious fuck up here. Now they have to pay the price.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Good point, Dixie. I hadn't even really thought about it being orchestrated. You are correct that the governments involvement with GM will likely cause conflicts of interest between the welfare of GM and the government's interest in safety and consumer protection. However, I agree with the others that Toyota will probably recover most of its market share.

Well, like I said, I don't think the future looks pretty for Toyota. If I were buying a car for my daughter to go off to school, or my wife to have a second car... I am going to have to think about the Toyota now... before, I wouldn't have, it would have been a Toyota! I am a Toyota loyalist, and if I can see having my doubts about the product, I am sure others will as well. I sure wouldn't recommend buying Toyota stock.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Well, like I said, I don't think the future looks pretty for Toyota. If I were buying a car for my daughter to go off to school, or my wife to have a second car... I am going to have to think about the Toyota now... before, I wouldn't have, it would have been a Toyota! I am a Toyota loyalist, and if I can see having my doubts about the product, I am sure others will as well. I sure wouldn't recommend buying Toyota stock.

I bet you'll see a lot of top level Toyota executives with decision making authority relocating to their US operations and that they will have their ears hard pressed to the floor listening real hard to what customers have to say.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You're wrong Tom. Toyota made a huge mistake that resulted in a serious safety issue that cost injuries, lives and property damage. I see this as no different then the gas tank issue of the Ford Pinto's and Ford was publicly vilified to a much greater extent then what Toyota is going through now.

There's no way to sugar coat this. Toyota made serious fuck up here. Now they have to pay the price.

There are a couple of differences worth mentioning here...

The Pinto thing, like the Corvair thing before that... were model specific problems, and in both cases, resulted in the popular model being dumped immediately.... no brainer! With the Toyota problem... Toyota IS the model! This encompasses several models through several years, and all news reports and publicity are directed at "Toyota" not a model that can be dumped...

The other thing is this... The Pinto made Ford a bunch of money and lost Ford a bunch of money, but Ford was an old strong company with a longer history in the industry than Toyota. (like Notre Dame and OSU) Much of Ford's interests was in commercial fleet vehicles, not economy cars. It was damaging from a public relations standpoint, but as far as their core business, it didn't really "do them in" because they are so diversified as a company. Henry had his finger in everything... Tractors to Racecars... and anything in between. Toyota's reputation is based on "RELIABILITY" ...and you can't really "rely" on a car that is prone to have a mind of it's own.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

There are a couple of differences worth mentioning here...

The Pinto thing, like the Corvair thing before that... were model specific problems, and in both cases, resulted in the popular model being dumped immediately.... no brainer! With the Toyota problem... Toyota IS the model! This encompasses several models through several years, and all news reports and publicity are directed at "Toyota" not a model that can be dumped...

The other thing is this... The Pinto made Ford a bunch of money and lost Ford a bunch of money, but Ford was an old strong company with a longer history in the industry than Toyota. (like Notre Dame and OSU) Much of Ford's interests was in commercial fleet vehicles, not economy cars. It was damaging from a public relations standpoint, but as far as their core business, it didn't really "do them in" because they are so diversified as a company. Henry had his finger in everything... Tractors to Racecars... and anything in between. Toyota's reputation is based on "RELIABILITY" ...and you can't really "rely" on a car that is prone to have a mind of it's own.

I agree Dixie. I don't think the public cry is overstated as Tom is claiming. I think Toyota has made a serious mistake and as you've correctly pointed out, with their reputation being built on reliability and quality, in the short term they are going to take a hard hit. Have you seen the unprecedented discounts they are offering?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I bet you'll see a lot of top level Toyota executives with decision making authority relocating to their US operations and that they will have their ears hard pressed to the floor listening real hard to what customers have to say.

I don't know, rich Japanese people tend to be somewhat erratic at times. They start off being cordial and contrite... willing to do anything... then they turn into soup nazi's and kamikazes... I can see ol' Yoko Toyoda sayin... just pull our product from markets in Yankee Doodle Land! Regardless, they are losing a ton of sales revenue right now, eventually, that's going to take a toll.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I agree Dixie. I don't think the public cry is overstated as Tom is claiming. I think Toyota has made a serious mistake and as you've correctly pointed out, with their reputation being built on reliability and quality, in the short term they are going to take a hard hit. Have you seen the unprecedented discounts they are offering?

I have not... but what difference is that going to really make? We'll give you $8000 off a Corolla, but we don't know if you might go flying through a billboard on the freeway next week, or if we can fix it if you do! We don't even know why they do it! It's insane, I know... but think of the money you're saving! LOL!

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I don't know, rich Japanese people tend to be somewhat erratic at times. They start off being cordial and contrite... willing to do anything... then they turn into soup nazi's and kamikazes... I can see ol' Yoko Toyoda sayin... just pull our product from markets in Yankee Doodle Land! Regardless, they are losing a ton of sales revenue right now, eventually, that's going to take a toll.

Well that would be suicidal of Toyota to do that but it's hard to argue with you. The Japanese do have a bit of a reputation where suicide is concerned! LOL

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I have not... but what difference is that going to really make? We'll give you $8000 off a Corolla, but we don't know if you might go flying through a billboard on the freeway next week, or if we can fix it if you do! We don't even know why they do it! It's insane, I know... but think of the money you're saving! LOL!

Makes no difference to me. I'm a Ford man! LOL This incident does put Ford firmly into 2nd place behind Honda in customer satisfaction. I just bought a Focus for the Mrs and I was surprised at how much better it was then a Corolla.

 

[cancel2 2022]

You're wrong Tom. Toyota made a huge mistake that resulted in a serious safety issue that cost injuries, lives and property damage. I see this as no different then the gas tank issue of the Ford Pinto's and Ford was publicly vilified to a much greater extent then what Toyota is going through now.

There's no way to sugar coat this. Toyota made serious fuck up here. Now they have to pay the price.

So how come there wasn't anything like the same problems here? The Toyota plant in Derbyshire is not far from where I live and I can't help thinking that much of this was hysterics and a media feeding frenzy. They have recalled over 2 million cars in the UK and Europe so you can't claim that we are that different except maybe US drivers are technically inferior to European drivers or that US cars mostly have automatic gearboxes.

 

[Topspin]

Dixie, thanks for showing yourself as a business moron and clueless on human behavior. You were a psych major. lol

 

[Canceled.LTroll.2]

Dick - see is a MAJOR PSYCHO, not a pysch major.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Makes no difference to me. I'm a Ford man! LOL This incident does put Ford firmly into 2nd place behind Honda in customer satisfaction. I just bought a Focus for the Mrs and I was surprised at how much better it was then a Corolla.

As for American cars, Ford is top of my list, especially the old 2ltr Escorts, you couldn't kill those little engines.. But they are actually designed on the Toyota 2ltr, which is sometimes called "the bulletproof engine."

It's never about what a car is like when it is new... there isn't much difference in NEW cars... it's when they are 5-10 years old... how well are they holding up then? It's when you've put 100k miles on them and how much you would depend on them to get you where you're going without trouble. Then there is the resale value, not that this matters much now, but Toyotas always held a very high resale value over Ford or anyone else. Mostly because of their reputation for durable long-lasting vehicles.

The thing I used to like about my Toyota, I could buy a set of metric sockets, a couple of screwdrivers, and a Haynes manual, and handle most anything short of a major tear-down, in my carport. Very simple design, easy to find parts, and no "special tools" needed.... THAT is the think I always hated about Ford! You would start to work on something, and find you needed to order the "special tool" sold only at the dealer! Grrrr! Plus, the engineering was terrible back in the 70s... I had a Mustang Cobra II, blue with white stripes... 302 V8! It hauled ass, but you literally had to unbolt the engine from the motor mounts and jack it up about 3 inches, to get the back spark plugs out! The engine produced so much heat, it began deteriorating the hood stripes in a few years, and they started cracking, peeling and looking like ass. I could go on and on... I had a Pinto station wagon (van) with the little porthole window in the back... I wish I had that thing now! At the time, I thought it sucked I was driving a station wagon! Had a Ford F150, it's probably still in service somewhere, it had over 300k miles on it... very dependable! I also had an old Lincoln I loved! If I were going to buy a vintage car, it would probably be a Ford.

The only thing I worry about with Ford is, they didn't participate in the bailout... so, there is no telling what kind of "mysterious problem" is going to suddenly pop up on some Ford's.... that's what scares me about this bunch in power now... I wouldn't be surprised if this was a conspiracy!

 

[USFREEDOM911]

There are a couple of differences worth mentioning here...

The Pinto thing, like the Corvair thing before that... were model specific problems, and in both cases, resulted in the popular model being dumped immediately.... no brainer! With the Toyota problem... Toyota IS the model! This encompasses several models through several years, and all news reports and publicity are directed at "Toyota" not a model that can be dumped...

The other thing is this... The Pinto made Ford a bunch of money and lost Ford a bunch of money, but Ford was an old strong company with a longer history in the industry than Toyota. (like Notre Dame and OSU) Much of Ford's interests was in commercial fleet vehicles, not economy cars. It was damaging from a public relations standpoint, but as far as their core business, it didn't really "do them in" because they are so diversified as a company. Henry had his finger in everything... Tractors to Racecars... and anything in between. Toyota's reputation is based on "RELIABILITY" ...and you can't really "rely" on a car that is prone to have a mind of it's own.

UHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.....What was the Corvair thing??