Sorry, fellow Italian-Americans: Columbus was a thug. But the church was the big prob

signalmankenneth

Verified User
Sorry, fellow Italian-Americans: Columbus was a thug. But the church was the big problem

Christopher Columbus was a criminal. But the vicious Catholic doctrine that empowered him has never been revoked

Despite my Italian heritage, I don't understand the adulation that some Italian-Americans continue to bestow on Christopher Columbus, who, as history demonstrates, was less a hero than a thug, exploiting and enslaving indigenous peoples.

But the real culprit behind the subjugation of non-European peoples across the globe wasn't an individual, or even a monarch. It was the Roman Catholic Church. It's time the church owned that grievous mistake.

As early as the 15th century, as European nations were making voyages of discovery, Catholic popes gave them permission to subjugate and steal. The most significant of these papal permission slips was the Doctrine of Discovery. A decree Issued in 1493 by Pope Alexander VI, it essentially told Catholic countries that any lands they "discovered" were theirs to keep and exploit, provided the inhabitants were not Christians but heathens ripe for conversion.

Popes issue lots of decrees, but this one stuck. The Doctrine of Discovery proved to be very popular with monarchs across Europe, Catholic and Protestant alike. Its impact has been felt in Africa, Asia, Australia, New Zealand and the Americas. The idea was simple and attractive:

Plant a flag and a cross on a land not claimed by any other Christian ruler, and it's yours.

The doctrine also served to legitimize the seizure of lands by white American settlers. In considering an Illinois property dispute that came before the Supreme Court in 1823, Chief Justice John Marshall referred to the discovery doctrine to rule that Native Americans couldn't sell their lands — since they hadn't "owned" them in the first place.

"All the nations of Europe, who have acquired territory on this continent, have asserted in themselves, and have recognised [sic] in others, the exclusive right of the discoverer to appropriate the lands occupied by the Indians," Marshall wrote. When the U.S. became independent from Britain, he concluded, it inherited all the land the British crown had claimed.

https://www.salon.com/2022/10/10/so...as-a-thug-but-the-church-was-the-big-problem/

Happy National Indigenous Peoples Day!

311306536_464257949073218_8998740351059643279_n.jpg

 
And let's not forget:

- Columbus was searching for and thought he discovered India. Get a map and see how bright that was.

- If the native people had guns, they would have charged outrageous docking fees and "America" would have never come to exist. Now they could have use the NRA!

- To his credit, Columbus must have done some serious back room/late night "negotiation" with Queen Isabella for her to foot the bill on his little venture.

(: ;)
 
Actually, this is completely wrong. Columbus made just four trips to the New World and basically, outside "discovering" it, really didn't do shit one way or the other.

That in no way excuses the Spanish--SPANISH--for the atrocities and avarice they perpetrated on Central and South America, along with the Caribbean and elsewhere. Columbus was a really minor player other than for his one significant discovery. Hell, Columbus wasn't even really responsible for discovering that the Americas were really a "New world."

I will add, that it's probably a good thing the Spanish smashed the Aztec empire in any case. A culture of perpetual warfare for human sacrifices and cannibalism really needs to be stomped on hard...
 
Actually, this is completely wrong. Columbus made just four trips to the New World and basically, outside "discovering" it, really didn't do shit one way or the other.

That in no way excuses the Spanish--SPANISH--for the atrocities and avarice they perpetrated on Central and South America, along with the Caribbean and elsewhere. Columbus was a really minor player other than for his one significant discovery. Hell, Columbus wasn't even really responsible for discovering that the Americas were really a "New world."

Is this Italian shame or Spanish hatred?

Oh, and nothing you wrote changes or debunks the OP by one iota. Just saying.
 
Is this Italian shame or Spanish hatred?

Oh, and nothing you wrote changes or debunks the OP by one iota. Just saying.

It was the Spanish, not Italians, that conquered most of the Americas--not to mention a lot of other places as well. And, the Spanish pretty much fucked them all up.
 
considering the common behavior of indigenous people in central america they needed to be replaced.

no point in killing people when you can put them to work making stuff.

and as comic Reno Collier points out, you do get half off your matrass today.
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
Is this Italian shame or Spanish hatred?

Oh, and nothing you wrote changes or debunks the OP by one iota. Just saying.


It was the Spanish, not Italians, that conquered most of the Americas--not to mention a lot of other places as well. And, the Spanish pretty much fucked them all up.

And your point? Because NOTHING you wrote changes the information in the OP one iota.
 
And your point? Because NOTHING you wrote changes the information in the OP one iota.

Columbus pitched an idea to the Spanish monarchy, discovered new lands to be plundered, and then Spain did the rest. Columbus in the scheme of things was really a minor player other than the first discovery. Had he not been the one, someone else would have, and the same results are likely. Spain had the means and the geographical location to exploit the Americas better than more northern European nations did by virtue of favorable wind and sea conditions.
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
And your point? Because NOTHING you wrote changes the information in the OP one iota.

Columbus pitched an idea to the Spanish monarchy, discovered new lands to be plundered, and then Spain did the rest. Columbus in the scheme of things was really a minor player other than the first discovery. Had he not been the one, someone else would have, and the same results are likely. Spain had the means and the geographical location to exploit the Americas better than more northern European nations did by virtue of favorable wind and sea conditions.

So besides the moot point, you're trying to what, diminish Columbus' part in all this to that of some type of delivery boy?

Puh-leeze!

Like it or not, it was the Italian boy's expedition an original idea...he accepted the dictates of Church & country. Spain gambled with him and the rest is history. The OP stands valid for what it reports. Deal with it.
 
So besides the moot point, you're trying to what, diminish Columbus' part in all this to that of some type of delivery boy?

Puh-leeze!

Like it or not, it was the Italian boy's expedition an original idea...he accepted the dictates of Church & country. Spain gambled with him and the rest is history. The OP stands valid for what it reports. Deal with it.

I have and have pointed out very clearly that the OP is almost entirely bullshit.
 
I have and have pointed out very clearly that the OP is almost entirely bullshit.

Only in that intellectually dishonest and limited mind of yours. What you've done is provide moot points apropos to the OP information and then mix it with your supposition and conjecture as if all will result as honest conclusion.

Hint: it doesn't.

In a nutshell, Columbus got a grant from Spain for his expedition. He didn't hit India, but kept up his error by "naming" the inhabitants "Indians" (an error that sticks to this day). Columbus brought back captive natives (aka slaves).

Like it or not, your boy was the carrier of imperialism and colonialism. That you don't like it is irrelevant.

The OP is valid...YOUR screed, however, is almost entirely bullshit.

See ya tomorrow.
 
Only in that intellectually dishonest and limited mind of yours. What you've done is provide moot points apropos to the OP information and then mix it with your supposition and conjecture as if all will result as honest conclusion.

Hint: it doesn't.

In a nutshell, Columbus got a grant from Spain for his expedition. He didn't hit India, but kept up his error by "naming" the inhabitants "Indians" (an error that sticks to this day). Columbus brought back captive natives (aka slaves).

Like it or not, your boy was the carrier of imperialism and colonialism. That you don't like it is irrelevant.

The OP is valid...YOUR screed, however, is almost entirely bullshit.

See ya tomorrow.

So? All of the above is simply woke nonsense. Naming the locals whatever is hardly some gross sin that needs atonement. Columbus isn't guilt free, but other than discovering the Americas, he was a minor player. Like I stated, he made a total of four (4) voyages to America and really didn't get rich or even powerful from doing so. Others did. The original OP is bullshit because it is based on historical illiteracy.
 
But the real culprit behind the subjugation of non-European peoples across the globe wasn't an individual, or even a monarch. It was the Roman Catholic Church. It's time the church owned that grievous mistake.
There were obviously bad priests, but this is histrionic and overly theatrical, and doesn't represent a balanced view of history. The subjugation of indigenous people was driven by capitalism, mercantilism, and the encomienda system, not by the Roman Catholic church.


AD 1537: Pope Paul III opposes enslaving Native peoples

Pope Paul III issues a decree, “Sublimus Deus,” opposing the enslavement of indigenous peoples and calling them “true men.” This papal bull becomes the policy of Spain’s leaders—but conquistadors and colonists break with it. In the Americas, the Spanish use various official means to subjugate Native peoples: the Royal Encomienda (tribute paid to the Spanish crown from profits from forced labor), Repartimiento (forced labor), and Hacienda and Rancho (land grants).

“The said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ; and that they may and should, freely and legitimately, enjoy their liberty and the possession of their property; nor should they be in any way enslaved; should the contrary happen, it shall be null and have no effect.” — Pope Paul III, “Sublimus Deus”

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/185.html
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
Only in that intellectually dishonest and limited mind of yours. What you've done is provide moot points apropos to the OP information and then mix it with your supposition and conjecture as if all will result as honest conclusion.

Hint: it doesn't.

In a nutshell, Columbus got a grant from Spain for his expedition. He didn't hit India, but kept up his error by "naming" the inhabitants "Indians" (an error that sticks to this day). Columbus brought back captive natives (aka slaves).

Like it or not, your boy was the carrier of imperialism and colonialism. That you don't like it is irrelevant.

The OP is valid...YOUR screed, however, is almost entirely bullshit.

See ya tomorrow.


So? All of the above is simply woke nonsense. Naming the locals whatever is hardly some gross sin that needs atonement. Columbus isn't guilt free, but other than discovering the Americas, he was a minor player. Like I stated, he made a total of four (4) voyages to America and really didn't get rich or even powerful from doing so. Others did. The original OP is bullshit because it is based on historical illiteracy.

Note this MAGA minion's first sentence response, dear readers. I can't decide whether it's complete arrogant stupidity or insipidly stubborn indifferent racism (or both) at work.

All T.A. is doing here is attempted to down grade the negativity of Columbus' historical adventure in relations to the native populations of what is now the Bahamas and later South America. T.A.'s a bit schizoid here, because while he's defending Columbus against the recognition of his imperialistic/colonialist actions he trivializes the whole actions of the event.

In other words, brown & black folk are not allowed to criticize Columbus, but white folk can say WTF they want even if it diminishes the historical accolades.

Now given his limited intelligence, let's watch T.A. just double down and parrot his dreck 6 ways to Sunday.
 
Actually, this is completely wrong. Columbus made just four trips to the New World and basically, outside "discovering" it, really didn't do shit one way or the other.

That in no way excuses the Spanish--SPANISH--for the atrocities and avarice they perpetrated on Central and South America, along with the Caribbean and elsewhere. Columbus was a really minor player other than for his one significant discovery. Hell, Columbus wasn't even really responsible for discovering that the Americas were really a "New world."

I will add, that it's probably a good thing the Spanish smashed the Aztec empire in any case. A culture of perpetual warfare for human sacrifices and cannibalism really needs to be stomped on hard...

several documented European explorers “discovered” North America before that murderous slaver.
 
The fellow Italian American's I know are neither enslaving any indigenous people nor lamenting the fact that they can't.
If they have public sector jobs, Chris got them a day off. Who doesn't celebrate a day off?

In a way, Columbo did bring diversity to America.
Too bad diversity turned out to be such a fucking disaster,
but I'm not accepting any blame for it.
 
The fellow Italian American's I know are neither enslaving any indigenous people nor lamenting the fact that they can't.
If they have public sector jobs, Chris got them a day off. Who doesn't celebrate a day off?

In a way, Columbo did bring diversity to America.
Too bad diversity turned out to be such a fucking disaster,
but I'm not accepting any blame for it.

WTF are you on about now?

If you are an American descended from European immigrants, then YOU are part of the "diversity" you decry.
No one is saying current Italian Americans are about enslaving native folk......we're just pointing out historical facts that deflate this long standing wind bag about Columbus.

People love their legends, their dogma...and they get a little pissed when reality takes it apart.
 
I enjoyed some magnificent baked rigatoni , homemade Italian bread, and a fine valpolicella for national Italian American day, with my fave Italian American buds..
 
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