Russia cuts gas supply to NATO applicant, Finland

[moon]

Did anybody in Europe ever stop to think what might happen if a rabid dog like putin pulled a stunt like his little adventure in Ukraine? It’s not like he didn’t telegraph his punches with Georgia and Crimea. And it’s not like Trump didn’t nag NATO to increase their contributions and beef up their militaries. Did these people really really think vlad was gonna keep the tap open when he finally had his hissy fit?

It's NATO's stunt, not Putin's.

And I just find it hysterical that everyone jumped into those ridiculous Paris climate accords AND THEN ACTUALLY STARTED DISMANTLING THEIR ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE!!! All except the damn russians, that is. They got Europe hooked on their cheap shit and now they’re gonna charge the premium for it, and the currency will be money AND blood.

No- the Europe/Russia commercial interactions were going very well. Biden wanted that stopped. He's been threatening Europe over it for quite some time.

This entire shebang is NATO's war on Russia.

 

[moon]

I can't believe Finland has a Warsaw nation on its eastern border. Encroachment!

Very silly. Finland was neutral. Now it ain't- and nobody asked the Fins.

 

[moon]

what did you expect from NATO expansion -even defacto into Ukraine?

NATO is a self-fulfilling prophesy of war.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

I didn't mention no choice either. You're annoying in your fabrications. Go away.

In the UK vast numbers of people are having to choose between ' heat or eat ' already- and they were not dependent upon Russian gas. .

It's kind of hard to choose if you have no choice.

 

[Airstrip One]

no. that was the USSR - Russia isn't going to collapse. it's joined the the hip with China

They can go down together in financial ruin.

 

[Airstrip One]

NATO is a self-fulfilling prophesy of war.

I notice that it triumphed over the Soviets...

 

[Walt]

no worries. Europe is now a hyper-militarized hostile camps

I really do not think you know what "hyper-militarized" is. I visited the USSR towards the end, when it was much less militarized. Russia has gotten even less militarized since then, but Russia is still far more militarized than anything in NATO.

Switzerland is oddly militarized. I cannot quite put that on the normal spectrum of militarized.

But nothing in Europe is "hyper-militarized".

Gone are any chances for detente.

There would normally need to be a ceasefire, then a peace agreement, and finally much later we could start working on detente. 20 years later, Nixon could have detente with China, but Eisenhower could only get a ceasefire with China.

 

[Walt]

no. that was the USSR - Russia isn't going to collapse. it's joined the the hip with China

Russia already semi-collapsed back when the defaulted on their debt in 1998. This could be worse. It is looking like they will have to abandon cities again. Can you imagine America having to evacuate Minneapolis for the Winter, because we could not afford to keep the heat on? Even during the Great Depression, nothing like that would have been considered.

China is saying a lot of positive things about Russia now, but they are also actively planning for possible war with Russia.

 

[Walt]

Do you know the number of food banks already operating in England ?

I am sure there are a few, but in general fewer than most Americans would expect. The UK has a strong welfare system that has the government taking care of the poorer people.

 

[dukkha]

China is saying a lot of positive things about Russia now, but they are also actively planning for possible war with Russia.

OMFG
They have war-gammed under a unified military command

Vostok-2018: Another Sign of Strengthening Russia-China Ties
Not an Alliance, but Defense Cooperation Is Growing
https://www.swp-berlin.org/en/publi...other-sign-of-strengthening-russia-china-ties

 

[dukkha]

I really do not think you know what "hyper-militarized" is. I visited the USSR towards the end, when it was much less militarized. Russia has gotten even less militarized since then, but Russia is still far more militarized than anything in NATO.

NATO allies together have a personnel count of 5.41 million, compared to Russia's 1.35 million, according to the graphic that was the same as Statista's figures.

It also found NATO allies had 144,000 armored units, more than double that of Russia's 60,000, again a similar number to Statista.
NATO once more outnumbered Russia with 20,700 aircraft, a factor of nearly five to one when compared to Russia's 4,170.
Russia is also outnumbered in regard to its naval forces, which number 605—far lower than NATO's 2,049—once again a similar number to Statista.

However, the graphic did highlight one area where Russia has numerical superiority over NATO allies, namely nuclear weapons.

But nothing in Europe is "hyper-militarized".

Ukraine is just the tip of the spear

There would normally need to be a ceasefire, then a peace agreement, and finally much later we could start working on detente. 20 years later, Nixon could have detente with China, but Eisenhower could only get a ceasefire with China.

We had detente with Russia during the Cold War.
yes you are correct in the sequence -hence my post "gone are nay chances for detente"
I dont even know when Ukraine will stop being a hot war

 

[Matt Dillon]

The Fins should have held a referendum.




The next prime minister, of course, will have differing ideas.

Bad move, Finland.

 

[Walt]

NATO allies together have a personnel count of 5.41 million, compared to Russia's 1.35 million, according to the graphic that was the same as Statista's figures.

NATO has 946 million citizens, and 3.3 million active troops, or 3,500 troops for every million citizens. Russia has 145 million citizens, and 1.4 million active troops, or 9,700 troops for every million citizens. North Korea has 26 million citizens, and 1.3 million active troops, or 50,000 troops for every million citizens.

So in absolute numbers, NATO has a bigger military, in terms of how militarized the society is, NATO is the least militarized. The same is even more true about military spending. NATO has to spend thousands of times as much as North Korea, but a lot less of the NATO economies is dedicated to military spending. Many NATO nations are having trouble hitting 2% of GDP, where North Korea is at 24%... And given that the military takes a lot of production without paying for it, is much actually much higher.

On the spectrum of how militarized places are, NATO is several times less militarized than Russia, and North Korea is hyper-militarized. Ukraine is also becoming hyper-militarized. When a country is invaded, and is fighting for its survival, it becomes hyper-militarized. So I withdrawal my original statement that nothing in Europe is "hyper-militarized". No NATO nation is "hyper-militarized".

We had detente with Russia during the Cold War.

The Cold War was not a shooting war. We did not have detente with the Chinese while we were fighting them in Korea.

The first step, way before detente is a ceasefire. Everyone is trying to find Putin an offramp to get a ceasefire, but there is a problem. A ceasefire would mean that Russian troops would begin going home (if only to be replaced with new Russian troops). That means they would begin telling people back home how badly Putin failed. A ceasefire might be the end of Putin.

I dont even know when Ukraine will stop being a hot war

You cannot have a lowering of tensions towards a more stable peace while there is a hot war. There is no peace for detente to make more stable.

 

[Matt Dillon]

No- but when the Europeans see America making massive profits from fuel that used to be cheap from Russia- they're going to start asking what this war was all about.
Then the effluent connects with the rotor.

What if it wasn't such a profit and we were just supplying them because we have the resources?

We do have the resources, but Biden fucked all that up on 1/20/2021.

 

[Walt]

OMFG
They have war-gammed under a unified military command

Vostok-2018: Another Sign of Strengthening Russia-China Ties
Not an Alliance, but Defense Cooperation Is Growing
https://www.swp-berlin.org/en/publi...other-sign-of-strengthening-russia-china-ties

As a general rule, they will have one thousand or less troops from one side, and the rest from the other side. They also have separate war games where they practice for war against one another. The Chinese-Russian border is not the US-Canadian border. It is a highly militarized border.

There is little chance that the USA would be able to land tanks in China. US tanks could conceivably move through North Korea, and attack China, but that is far fetched. Indian tanks would have a hard time getting over the Himalayan; a Sino-Indian war would not be fought with tanks. There are tens of thousands of Russian tanks poised on the Chinese border, so that is the main reason China has developed tanks.

 

[Walt]

The Fins should have held a referendum.

Support for joining NATO is about 70%, and their form of government does not require a referendum on every treaty question. Joining NATO is easily undone. If the Finns disagree with joining NATO, they can elect politicians that would withdraw them from NATO. It could all be done in a few days after a new government came to office.

Should Putin have had a referendum before invading Ukraine?

 

[dukkha]

As a general rule, they will have one thousand or less troops from one side, and the rest from the other side. They also have separate war games where they practice for war against one another. The Chinese-Russian border is not the US-Canadian border. It is a highly militarized border.

There is little chance that the USA would be able to land tanks in China. US tanks could conceivably move through North Korea, and attack China, but that is far fetched. Indian tanks would have a hard time getting over the Himalayan; a Sino-Indian war would not be fought with tanks. There are tens of thousands of Russian tanks poised on the Chinese border, so that is the main reason China has developed tanks.

The PLA’s land army is the world’s largest standing ground force with 915,000 active-duty troops,
almost twice the US figure of 486,000 personnel, according to the Pentagon’s 2020 China Military Power
with that many you have to have all phases of land army.
And they could go Afghan - but China always relies on soft power first.

There are no war games of Russia v China anymore on the border anymore.

Russia and China are going to have tanks on a border, there was an
agreement to have the same amount
https://nuke.fas.org/control/mrmfba/index.html

just as NATO has them across Europe - even though the potential of war with Russia is zilch

 

[Walt]

The PLA’s land army is the world’s largest standing ground force with 915,000 active-duty troops,
almost twice the US figure of 486,000 personnel, according to the Pentagon’s 2020 China Military Power

The USA had 1.4 million active troops, and China has 2.2 million active troops. I think you are quoting army sizes, but I would assume the Marines, Navy, and Air Force would be involved in any war.

Both numbers are highly misleading. The USA could never put all their troops against China (unless China invaded the USA), but also the USA would never go to war with China alone. There would be millions of other troops from allied militaries. Both sides would call up reserves, so both sides would have millions more troops.

There is no obvious land battle location, and most of the less obvious land battle locations would not include many tanks.

There are no war games of Russia v China anymore on the border anymore.

Both the Russians and the Chinese have highly militarized their border. There are tens of thousands of tanks poised on either side of the border, ready to start a war. They are all training constantly.

A war between Russia and China would involve tanks. It is actually a good terrain for tanks.

just as NATO has them across Europe - even though the potential of war with Russia is zilch

The Europeans do not agree with you. That becomes stronger and stronger the further east you go. The Baltic Countries are absolutely terrified. Fighting off a potential Russian invasion is the main reason Europeans have tanks.

 

[moon]

It's kind of hard to choose if you have no choice.

Again, ' No choice ' wasn't mentioned. Your strawmen are on fire. Go away.

 

[moon]

I notice that it triumphed over the Soviets...

The dissolution of the Soviet Union was due to the policies of Gorbachev , not direct NATO pressure. Russia consolidated its assets.

Again, NATO is a self-fulfilling prophesy of war.