Honduras Defends Its Democracy

Watermark said:
Actually the military wouldn't get involved. I imagine people just wouldn't listen to him as he has no power to, and if the congress decided to remove him they'd just go through impeachment hearings, and he'd be out of the job. It would be utterly insane if the military just went in one night and took him to Canada.
Click to expand...

fortunately, our constitution and laws are laid out in more exact terms than Honduras' constitution is. But in reality, if it was necessary, the military would do just that.
 
blackascoal said:
There are simply no words to express how truly silly that is.

What this demonstrates is the utter failure of right-wing/libertarian thought. You can't even discuss the issue without shrouding it in falsehood and your fears. Zelaya is not a socialist leader. He's the democratically elected leader of his democratic nation and that stands true to this very moment.

You trimble :eek: at the sound of the word "socialist" so you have to inject that fear into every conversation.
Click to expand...
what this shows is that you don't care about the rule of law in that country.

Zelaya was ousted by the honduran congress and the honduran court. He is no longer the elected leader of that country because he made numerous attempts at violating their constitution.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
yeah, fuck that countries right to rule itself by its constitution, written by the people.

It's completely defensible because it was completely fucking legal.

conveniently leaving out the fact that the honduran congress and courts came to this decision by rule of law. The UN is without credibility on this issue.

probably under duress, which in my opinion would render it an illegal resignation. This is probably the only thing that should be investigated right now.

another talking head idiot that can't wrap his mind around the fact that this was done legally upon the courts order as well as congress.


were these government officials attempting to help subvert the honduran constitution? If so, then they are also criminals and should feel lucky they were just exiled.

another talking head idiot ignoring facts of law.

another idiot, alongside 118 other idiots.

and another one.

say what? the last report said 500 supporters protested. This many people define liberty for honduras?

this should be investigated, however, was this really a kidnapping or did they expel the ambassadors?

any nation with a multi branched and equal powered government has this basic function written in the laws of their country. whether they actually follow through with it or not is irrelevant. I guess I could say 'SHOULD' operate this way.

im sure it is, small struggling nations generally will have to bow down to those with power, even though those in power are wrong.

What this issue boils down to is countries are incredulous that a nation would actually use their own military to uphold the constitution, something government leaders have long thought would never happen to them, yet it's crystal clear now that it can. That is why there is such a huge outrage about this. None of these talking heads wants to be told they have to toe the law when it concerns their own actions.
Click to expand...

You keep swimming upstream spewing slogans like "freedom" and "constitution" all you want brother. I have no problem with that. I understand your fear .. but I don't have it.

I have no doubt whatsoever of the outcome or the benefit this will bring to leftist governments in the region.

The military coup in Honduras that ousted President Manuel Zelaya is destined to fail after widespread international condemnation, says a Swiss diplomat. Walter Suter, former Swiss ambassador to Venezuela, told swissinfo.ch that the first military putsch in Central America since the Cold War was also unlikely to endanger democracies in other parts of Latin America.

On Tuesday Honduras' interim government battled against a tide of international support for Zelaya, who vowed to return home in two days after troops toppled and exiled him in a power struggle over plans for constitutional change.

Honduras faces growing pressure to reinstate Zelaya, an ally of Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, after he was forced out on Sunday and spirited away to Costa Rica by the army.

The Honduran capital Tegucigalpa was mostly quiet by Monday night after hundreds of Zelaya supporters clashed during the day with riot police and troops to demand his return to power.

Suter said the action by the Honduran military leaders resembled an injured animal lashing out.

"But I am very confident that things will return to normal and Zelaya's legitimate government will be reinstated," he told swissinfo.ch, adding that he was certain the Honduran crisis would not lead to political instability across Latin America.

"This would be the case if there was no real solidarity. But the members of the Organization of American States (OAS) have opposed this action which they consider illegal," said Suter, who has also served as Switzerland's ambassador to Venezuela, Chile, Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay.

"If the solidarity of all Latin American states manages to re-establish order in Honduras, it will send a real signal that democracies are being consolidated in the region," he added.

Illegal coup
Latin America, the United States, the United Nations and the European Union have piled diplomatic pressure on the new government to quit.

In Washington, President Barack Obama said the coup was illegal and that President Zelaya remained the democratically elected president there.

"It would be a terrible precedent if we start moving backwards into the era in which we are seeing military coups as a means of political transition rather than democratic elections," said Obama.

Latin American governments went further in their condemnation and said they would withdraw their envoys. Several neighbouring states said they would cut trade for 48 hours.

Suter, who has worked in Latin America for decades, felt the international support for Zelaya would ultimately sink the coup leaders.

According to the Swiss expert, Obama's swift stance on the first Latin American crisis of his presidency was crucial.

"Although it is timid, the statement by the Obama government echoes their position at the Fifth Summit of the Americas in Trinidad and Tobago in June 2009. It confirms that the US strategy for Latin America is to only recognise constitutional democratic processes," said Suter.

Upset the elites
Zelaya, a cowboy hat-wearing logging magnate, has upset conservative elites with his growing alliance with Chávez.

He has riled the armed forces, courts and Congress with his quest to change the constitution to let presidents seek re-election beyond a single four-year term.

Zelaya was arrested in his pyjamas on Sunday morning by soldiers who stormed his residence and flew him into exile.

Speaking from Nicaraguan capital, Managua, on Monday after a meeting with leftist allies in the region, Zelaya announced his intention to return home on Thursday together with the head of the OAS.

"I'll be finishing my term of four years whatever you - you groups of oligarchs, you the owners of the media - may want," he said.

It is unclear how Honduras's current leaders would react but they have previously said that Zelaya would be arrested and jailed if he set foot in the country.

On Monday the Swiss foreign ministry issued a statement expressing concern over the latest events in Honduras.

It called on those responsible "to re-establish constitutional order and the rule of law". It also called for a democratic and peaceful resolution of the crisis.
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/front/D...html?siteSect=105&sid=10897236&rss=true&ty=st

Who do you think actually cares that you think all the leaders of the world are "idiots?"
 
SmarterThanYou said:
the capital police do not have law enforcement jurisdiction in the white house. Only the treasury department and FBI do.
Click to expand...

Have you ever been to the capitol, halls of Congress?

I have .. used to work there.

Capitol Police have exclusive juridisdiction over all capitol grounds.

The point is moot because there is no question there is authority that would prevent someone who is not the president from sitting in his chair without requiring the military.
 
Yurt said:
according to honduras law the referendum was illegal and his orders to the military illegal....zelaya's own cabinent and party members are against his illegal referendum...

i never said it was law...and the guy in office now is the legal successor....for dungheap as well...

the vice president resigned...thus he is NOT next in line
Click to expand...
Cheese n Rice now you and I agree, I am feeling dizzy. :)
 
Yurt said:
according to honduras law the referendum was illegal and his orders to the military illegal....zelaya's own cabinent and party members are against his illegal referendum...

i never said it was law...and the guy in office now is the legal successor....for dungheap as well...

the vice president resigned...thus he is NOT next in line
Click to expand...


Uh, do you have any support whatsoever for your claim that the vice president resigned?
 
Dungheap said:
Uh, do you have any support whatsoever for your claim that the vice president resigned?
Click to expand...

i read it on a blog by a guy that claims to live there and a blog by a US professor of politics that studies that area's politics, he didn't even know, then someone on the blog posted the comment and he claimed to have looked into it and said it was true...

i looked into it and the scant news/blogs i found was that the veep resigned to run for president later this year
 
Yurt said:
i read it on a blog by a guy that claims to live there and a blog by a US professor of politics that studies that area's politics, he didn't even know, then someone on the blog posted the comment and he claimed to have looked into it and said it was true...

i looked into it and the scant news/blogs i found was that the veep resigned to run for president later this year
Click to expand...


Well here's a link to a Voice of America article concerning a recent UN economic summit where the Vice President of Honduras spoke. It's dated June 24, 2009.

I'm not inclined to believe that the VP resigned within the past week amidst all of this turmoil, notwithstanding the blog post.


http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-06-24-voa5.cfm
 
Dungheap said:
Well here's a link to a Voice of America article concerning a recent UN economic summit where the Vice President of Honduras spoke. It's dated June 24, 2009.

I'm not inclined to believe that the VP resigned within the past week amidst all of this turmoil, notwithstanding the blog post.


http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-06-24-voa5.cfm
Click to expand...

i just found this:

Executive
http://www.poderciudadano.gob.hn

Chief of State: President Jose Manuel ZELAYA Rosales (since 27 January 2006); Vice President Commissioner Aristides MEJIA Carranza (since 1 February 2009); note - the President is both the Chief of State and Head of Government; because the president and vice president are elected on the same ballot. The position of "vice president commissioner" was created after that the Vice President Elvin SANTOS resigned in late 2008 to run for president post in the November 2009 election

http://www.hondurasembassy.se/paginas-ing/honduras.html

so he is not the VP as the other dude was
 
blackascoal said:
When did Zelaya refuse to leave office?" He is STILL the president.

What nation supports your view?
Click to expand...

he is not the president, he was acting against the Honduran constitution and thus was legally and constitutionally removed from office, with support of the two other branches of government, and his own attorney general.

The opinions of meddling nations have no bearing or relevance on this discussion. He was in violation of the honduran constitution and was thus legally removed from office by constitutional means by the Honduran government.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
one of the articles I read had several honduran congress members stating that there was no outlined process for impeachment.
Click to expand...
Yup. My goal was to see if Watermark actually read anything to educate himself before insisting something that didn't exist was an option.
 
Damocles said:
I don't see why you think that deportation is so bad. He gets to live in a rather nice American Protectorate rather than a prison, where he likely should be.
Click to expand...

Looks like he luckier then some of the other South American leaders, who were ousted.
They sometimes disappear in the middle of the night and are found day's later, having succumbed to lead poisoning.
 
»∞«;460240 said:
he is not the president, he was acting against the Honduran constitution and thus was legally and constitutionally removed from office, with support of the two other branches of government, and his own attorney general.

The opinions of meddling nations have no bearing or relevance on this discussion. He was in violation of the honduran constitution and was thus legally removed from office by constitutional means by the Honduran government.
Click to expand...

The opinions of other nations have no bearing?

They get 215 million dollars from the US in aid and their economy and many life essentials are dependent on trade and commerce with the rest of the world. I could go on in ways they are DEPENDENT on the world.

What the hell are you talking about?

There is no nation on the planet that supports this because it is incredibly ignorant to believe there was justification for these actions .. and, more to the point, the hand of the right-wing is obvious. It's obvious even on this site. It's certainly obvious in what's going on in Honduras. It was obvious behind every brutal dictatorship throughout Latin American history. This is another classic case of the elite monied interests against the will, future, and improvement in the lives of everyday people.

This is no different than attacks on Chavez. In fact, it's a backdoor attack on Chavez. His brand of people first is spreading .. and the gestapo-like response is not to allow citizens to determine their direction, but to stamp it out and remove it. It's the Law.

The problem with conservatives is they aren't very smart people. They jump on the dumbest shit imaginable and call it truth. There is no support for this madness anywhere in the world. It's dumb in any language .. yet, here you have American conservatives .. one day singing fake praises for Iranians who defy the law .. next minute supporting a military coup and using "the law" as the excuse.

... absolutely amazing
 
Last edited:
Epicurus said:
I know you didn't say this specifically, but it's just important to note here that Honduras has not become a dictatorship; it has narrowly averted it.

The point is that sometimes force can and should be used to defend the constitution, even against elected representatives.
Click to expand...

STUPID

Is Venezuela a "dictatorship?"

Is Bolivia a "dictatorship?"

Does amending or changing our constitution make America a "dictatorship?"

STUPID

... and the majority of Hondurans support the REAL president.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top