Who agrees with Cheney?

Southern Man said:
1. Yes.
2&3. I think you mean "torture", yet the enhanced interrogation techniques approved by Cheney and Pelosi do not meet the definition of torture. The approved techniques were necessary, and did in fact save American lives.
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If waterboarding isn't torture, then why did the US Government arrest, try, convict, and EXECUTE Japanese military who used the technique on American soldiers?
 
ZappasGuitar said:
If waterboarding isn't torture, then why did the US Government arrest, try, convict, and EXECUTE Japanese military who used the technique on American soldiers?
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Let me channel SM for a second.. It takes a bit of work, he and I sometimes disagree on this one...

"The differences in the technique (not the least of which is the possibility of actual death with the Japanese form) and the one implemented by the US were not slim, and form the differences that would make it into torture.

According to the documents used during the trials, the Japanese form included the actual forcing of water into the stomach and lungs of the person strapped to a board, then when they passed out the water was forced out of the lungs by force, sometimes by jumping on the torso. This often caused internal injuries and death itself, and often the victim could not be revived from their actual drowning.

It was also just one of the things that were also-rans after listing the murders, massacres and death marches. While it was first on the list, many of the techniques following were far more vicious than even this. Those who were convicted and executed were convicted of many more crimes against the POWs than just waterboarding and it is disingenuous of Begala to suggest that they were first solely tried and convicted of this sole crime and then summarily executed when he does not mention the further crimes, including massacre and murder they had been convicted of."

/Southern Man

How'd I do?
 
bravo said:
You might be old enough to remember some other "lies"......claiming an eminent danger the country and world....

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

"There is no doubt that . Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is useing and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockerfeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002,

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he has continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ...
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.
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You forgot a goodie...

"We know Saddam Hussein has WMD's. We know where they are..."
 
Damocles said:
Let me channel SM for a second.. It takes a bit of work, he and I sometimes disagree on this one...

"The differences in the technique (not the least of which is the possibility of actual death with the Japanese form) and the one implemented by the US were not slim and form the differences that would make it into torture. According to the documents used during the trials, the Japanese form included the actual forcing of water into the lungs of the person strapped to a board, then when they passed out the water was forced out of the lungs usually by jumping on the torso. This often caused internal injuries and death itself, and often the victim could not be revived from their actual drowning. It was also just one of the things that were also-rans after listing the murders, massacres and death marches. While it was first on the list, many of the techniques following were far more vicious than even this. Those who were convicted and executed were convicted of many more crimes against the POWs than just waterboarding and it is disingenuous of Begala to suggest that they were first solely tried and convicted of this sole crime and then summarily executed when he does not mention the further crimes, including massacre and murder they had been convicted of."

/Southern Man

How'd I do?
Click to expand...


It was spot on. The procedure used in the US could have used a side by side airing however.
 
Damocles said:
Let me channel SM for a second.. It takes a bit of work, he and I sometimes disagree on this one...

"The differences in the technique (not the least of which is the possibility of actual death with the Japanese form) and the one implemented by the US were not slim, and form the differences that would make it into torture.

According to the documents used during the trials, the Japanese form included the actual forcing of water into the stomach and lungs of the person strapped to a board, then when they passed out the water was forced out of the lungs by force, sometimes by jumping on the torso. This often caused internal injuries and death itself, and often the victim could not be revived from their actual drowning.

It was also just one of the things that were also-rans after listing the murders, massacres and death marches. While it was first on the list, many of the techniques following were far more vicious than even this. Those who were convicted and executed were convicted of many more crimes against the POWs than just waterboarding and it is disingenuous of Begala to suggest that they were first solely tried and convicted of this sole crime and then summarily executed when he does not mention the further crimes, including massacre and murder they had been convicted of."

/Southern Man

How'd I do?
Click to expand...

Not too bad, thank you.

Southern man would have just called me some vulgar name and left it at that. At least now I understand that there were/are differences. It doesn't make what we did to prisoners any more acceptable, but now I can see there are differences.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
You're not a hack...you don't have the brains for it. Remember chuckles, it was YOU and your ilk who kept regurgitating that Clinton was a draft dodger, and Obama never served.

One correction: You have posts on these BOARDS regarding Obama not serving. On this thread, you agreed with Cheney that Obama is making the country less safe. (like Cheney did a bang up job).

Thats possible...if the subject was Obama, so what...he didn't serve and thats a fact...but its irrelevant here....
Obama making the country less safe...for now is opinion...but certainly has background facts to bolster that opinion....closing Gitmo...terrorists trials in this country giving them every right of a US citizen...publicly condemning previous policy as against the law....publicly threatening our own CIA, FBI with misconduct....and his general subservience and apologizing to everyone for defending our own country ..... if you didn't know he was representing the United States, he could be mistaken for an enemy head of state.


One apology: As your posts are a dead ringer for another neocon blowhard on the old boards, I assumed you were the same person. If you are not, then I apologize.

Whats said on other boards and other threads have nothing to do with this thread here and now....no matter who posted what....whats relevant to other threads and boards is not relevant here....and I have no clue about any Netscape stuff...

But you did print in bold that Clinton was a draft dodger...and you maintained that Cheney wasn't. You can't have it both ways.

And I still maintain that....Cheney's and Bidens deferments are perfectly legal postponements allowed by the Selective Service....and Clinton is a draft dodger, thats just an undeniable fact....

And YOU were the one posting all the Dem quotes about WMD's....you conveniently left out WHO was pumping that "information" 24/7 www.bushlies.net

No Bushie was pumping information to the Democrats in 1996, 1997,1998,1999, and 2000.....and to CONTINUE saying those same things about Saddam and WMD on into 01,02, and 03 is hardly creating something new that can suddenly now be called lies....the rhetoric didn't change when Bush got elected...

Once again, I've proven you to be nothing but a neocon parrot deluded by his own convoluted logic. Carry on!
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So sit back and think....you've proven nothing, nothing at all about me or my facts...the truth is the truth...

 
"Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war." John Adams
The reason Bush/Cheney authorized torture was to find a link between Saddam and al-Qaeda in order to justify their war. The use of torture was an illegal act of desperation. Cheney knows he can be prosecuted for these crimes and that's why he's out trying to drum up support. But of course he will never talk about the real reasons he and Bush decided use torture.
 
apple0154 said:
That's the strange thing about the definition of crime. I remember, as a kid, playing "monkey pile". Being naked and insisting one play monkey pile is a crime but waterboarding someone until they become unconscious is not.

Most peculiar.
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Lots of things are peculiar in the legal world.
 
Crashk said:
"Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war." John Adams
The reason Bush/Cheney authorized torture was to find a link between Saddam and al-Qaeda in order to justify their war. The use of torture was an illegal act of desperation. Cheney knows he can be prosecuted for these crimes and that's why he's out trying to drum up support. But of course he will never talk about the real reasons he and Bush decided use torture.
Click to expand...

Really...wow...
Thanks for sharing what the "real" reason was ... Bush/Cheney would never tell us themselves.......:blah::blah::blah:
.
.
.
.
.
.you're a pinhead
 
Friggin Republicans and their word games.

Death Penalty is the Enhanced Sleep Techniques.

Give me a shot of something, quick!
 
YEs, there are differences, but it is still torture, it causes long term effects on the person who is subjected to it,especially 183 times.

How stupid, 183. If I had to do something that many times, I would find another and more effective way.

Showing them some humanity works more often than torture or enhanced techniques bullshit.

It is just those sickos who are into having power over people that use force of any kind.

I get more information out of a person with honey than vinegar. I have been around a lot of teenagers and I can make them sing like birds! I just bake cookies and listen a lot.
 
How do you know the Japanese style was not used, where you there? Do they describe all of the tactics in detail and why did some die?
 
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