Wow! Did Pres. Bush not care an inch about personal freedom..

Socrtease said:
And the real horror of all this is you could have been detained, told them you were a US citizen and under then existing policy, you would have had no right to see a judge to PROVE you were an American citizen.
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Yeah, that's one of the main things. Simply being an "enemy combatant" could make you subject to complete imprisonment without any recourse.

IMO, that's when we lost the first battle in the "War on Terror".
 
Damocles said:
I'll admit I haven't read the thread. I've been in other places. I've kinda skimmed it.

Does the report show that it was policy for any length of time or that Woo simply wrote up something he thought should be policy?
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Yoo was in the office of legal counsel which sets the legal policy of the United States of America. Opinions issuing from the OLC are fully vetted and internally debated because their opinions have such force. OLC opinions are things that individuals write up because they think something should be policy. They are the policy of the United States.
 
Dungheap said:
Yoo was in the office of legal counsel which sets the legal policy of the United States of America. Opinions issuing from the OLC are fully vetted and internally debated because their opinions have such force. OLC opinions are things that individuals write up because they think something should be policy. They are the policy of the United States.
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Again. How long was it a policy? According to the original post it was rescinded by Bush himself. Basically I want to know if this was something that he held onto or something that he rejected.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm seeking information.
 
Dungheap said:
The legal opinion wasn't disavowed until October of 2008.
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Wow. I'd agree with the original assessment. I wonder how many people were taken without any knowledge?

Seriously. Some "missing" people may not be actually "missing".
 
Here's the deal pinheads... Our enemy is not a country with a flag, diplomats, and a functioning government. They have infiltrated our country, and formed cell groups all over the place. In any war (and this is a war as declared by them), you have attack strategy. Their attack strategy is to use our system and freedoms to target innocent civilians... You guys want our attack strategy to be, assign them an ACLU lawyer, and prosecute them through the criminal justice system. I'll let you figure out which is the better strategy to fight a war, but it should be apparent if you're not an absolute idiot.

You guys continue to want to assume these tactics were endorsed so that Bush could target regular American citizens for no reason, and that is not the case. Now, we have to go back to the terrorists attack strategy, they use the freedom and liberty afforded to all Americans, to blend in, to not be conspicuous... how do you combat that? It seems to me, a logical strategy, to usurp those freedoms from those who seek to exploit them, in order to prevent attacks. That is all the Bush administration ever tried to do, not a single American citizen has ever come forward to charge the government with violating their constitutional rights... not one!
 
Dixie said:
Here's the deal pinheads... Our enemy is not a country with a flag, diplomats, and a functioning government. They have infiltrated our country, and formed cell groups all over the place. In any war (and this is a war as declared by them), you have attack strategy. Their attack strategy is to use our system and freedoms to target innocent civilians... You guys want our attack strategy to be, assign them an ACLU lawyer, and prosecute them through the criminal justice system. I'll let you figure out which is the better strategy to fight a war, but it should be apparent if you're not an absolute idiot.

You guys continue to want to assume these tactics were endorsed so that Bush could target regular American citizens for no reason, and that is not the case. Now, we have to go back to the terrorists attack strategy, they use the freedom and liberty afforded to all Americans, to blend in, to not be conspicuous... how do you combat that? It seems to me, a logical strategy, to usurp those freedoms from those who seek to exploit them, in order to prevent attacks. That is all the Bush administration ever tried to do, not a single American citizen has ever come forward to charge the government with violating their constitutional rights... not one!
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Even the Bush Administration was forced to disavow the opinion (albeit seven years after its issuance and a scant few months before the next president was to take office) yet here you are, a true dead-ender, defending the indefensible.

Nice work, Dix.
 
Dixie said:
Here's the deal pinheads... Our enemy is not a country with a flag, diplomats, and a functioning government. They have infiltrated our country, and formed cell groups all over the place. In any war (and this is a war as declared by them), you have attack strategy. Their attack strategy is to use our system and freedoms to target innocent civilians... You guys want our attack strategy to be, assign them an ACLU lawyer, and prosecute them through the criminal justice system. I'll let you figure out which is the better strategy to fight a war, but it should be apparent if you're not an absolute idiot.

You guys continue to want to assume these tactics were endorsed so that Bush could target regular American citizens for no reason, and that is not the case. Now, we have to go back to the terrorists attack strategy, they use the freedom and liberty afforded to all Americans, to blend in, to not be conspicuous... how do you combat that? It seems to me, a logical strategy, to usurp those freedoms from those who seek to exploit them, in order to prevent attacks. That is all the Bush administration ever tried to do, not a single American citizen has ever come forward to charge the government with violating their constitutional rights... not one!
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You have no concept of how freedom from government works. You cant just leave it up to one persons opinion as to if you are deserving Constitutional Freedoms... Then there really are no freedoms for anyone. If anyone Bush called a "terrorist" did not have Constititional protections... who does?
 
Bush choose to treat terrorists as an invading army, enemy "solders" if you will.....and as such they don't deserve the rights the attacked give to its citizens and never have....

Now Bush is gone and so is this practice ...it will be up to Obama to decide how he intends to defend this nation and how he handles its attackers, his decision now, as it should be....
 
bravo said:
Bush choose to treat terrorists as an invading army, enemy "solders" if you will.....and as such they don't deserve the rights the attacked give to its citizens and never have....

Now Bush is gone and so is this practice ...it will be up to Obama to decide how he intends to defend this nation and how he handles its attackers, his decision now, as it should be....
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You clearly dont understand, its about who gets to decide who is a "terrorist". The constititonal freedoms are set up so that its done by formal process, not just one mans opinion.
 
Whether or not any American was persecuted under this opinion is immaterial. What is material to the discussion is the idea that any American citizen can be accused of being a terrorist at any time and have his or her constitutional rights stripped away immediately.

It is also not important that President Bush never used such a thing against American citizens. What is important is that the current President or a future President may some day use it against us.

None of us are safe from an oppressive government if we allow these kinds of things to go unchecked. Anyone who is pro-life can suddenly be declared a terrorist at the drop of a hat today. Under another President, it might be people who are pro-choice. Today a Muslim might find himself locked away in prison for no other reason than that he is a Muslim. Tomorrow it might be Christians or Jews, maybe gays. Maybe it will be members of the KKK... okay, there might just be some good out of this after all. Or maybe it will be members of the Church of God or the Lutheran Church... Atheists?

None of us are safe. How many of our freedoms are in jeopardy here? The right to free speech? Would you be willing to speak out against the sacred cow of the President knowing that he has the power to haul your ass off tomorrow and declare you a terrorist?

That is not the America we all grew up in nor do I believe it is the America we want to live in.

Immie
 
I hope right-wing militias get put away for being domestic terrorists if they're caught with illegal weapons.
 
ib1yysguy said:
I hope right-wing militias get put away for being domestic terrorists if they're caught with illegal weapons.
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I pray they are at least afforded the constitutional rights we were guaranteed over two hundred years ago. Because if they are not, which of us will be next?

Immie
 
Immanuel said:
I pray they are at least afforded the constitutional rights we were guaranteed over two hundred years ago. Because if they are not, which of us will be next?

Immie
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I remember watching a TV show the other day about a standoff incident with a right wing militia somewhere that had procured a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher and automatic weapons. If you ask me, they should have been put away and tried as terrorists. Had they been arrested after 2001, that might have happened but probably nto considering who was in charge (gun nuts love other gun nuts, as long as they're white).
 
ib1yysguy said:
I remember watching a TV show the other day about a standoff incident with a right wing militia somewhere that had procured a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher and automatic weapons. If you ask me, they should have been put away and tried as terrorists. Had they been arrested after 2001, that might have happened but probably nto considering who was in charge (gun nuts love other gun nuts, as long as they're white).
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Was that Rambo? A one man militia! Hasn't anyone told you that was fiction? ;)

But! You did at least say tried as terrorists. If they do something illegal they should suffer the consequences for doing so and they should be afforded a trial and representation in a court of law. If their crime warrants it they should be given prison time.

From what I read in the OP, that would not have been the case if they were simply declared terrorists under the Bush Administration.

Immie
 
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