Didn't Conservatives staple teabags to their faces because of this very thing?

[LV426]

Other times I had to sign an attendance sheet for students receiving child care funding and they had to be on a grant to qualify. Sometimes students would try to talk me into a higher grade so they could keep getting their grant.

Anecdotes, anecdotes, anecdotes.

That's all your argument is here.

Anecdotes.

I have no reason to trust the truthfulness of these, and given your habit of holding back exculpatory information or just plain making shit up, how can I trust the veracity of this nonsense that has more plot holes than a Fast & Furious movie???

Seriously, do you think so little of me that you feel you can do some "ends justify the means" bullshit here?

Fuck you, then.

I take back all my apologies to you.

 

[LV426]

Bad faith is claiming a person is lying when you have nothing to contribute about a subject you know nothing about.

No, bad faith is making up, exaggerating, or embellishing anecdotes to lend your argument credibility that it doesn't otherwise have on the facts.

YOU KNOW there is no way for me to verify your claims, and YOU KNOW there is no way you would ever provide me with the avenues to do so, so YOU KNOW you are working from a place where I must accept what you're saying as truthful when YOU KNOW you've given me no reason to do so.

 

[LV426]

You can't stand to admit a federal program has waste or cheating.

Are you fucking kidding?

I literally said in this thread that there was fraud, waste, and abuse in Medicare that the ACA helped fix by shifting to an outcome-based model.

Literally...IN THIS THREAD...a handful of posts ago.

 

[Flash]

Don't professors already submit attendance records?

Mine all did.

Also, how would a professor know who gets Pell Grants and who doesn't? Professors wouldn't know that stuff, but those in the Financial Aid or Registrar's office might. So you'd have to set up some liason or process with every single school to rout attendance information to the Pell Grant administrators even though applicants have to do that every year.

OK, but "flunking out" is different from "intentional truancy".

All your professors took attendance in every class? Even those in classes of 100-200?

I never taught or attended a college where professors were required to keep attendance (at least nothing that was enforced).

Sometimes I would get a call from Financial Aid to see if a student was attending because they were getting a grant. VA benefits were stricter, but even they did not require us to keep attendance. You don't have to have any liason, if a student flunks a class (whether he attended or not) should not be able to keep getting a grant if his grades fall below a C average. Instead, there are many loopholes despite what the website says.

There is a difference between skipping classes and flunking out, but if a student never attends or does any work he is going to flunk out theoretically. When I was in college I assumed that occurred but now I know many are allowed to re-enroll even if they do not meet the standards. This is especially true at community colleges that are open admissions because they have a higher drop out/failure rate which lowers their funding. And today, accreditation standards emphasize "student success" which is usually measured by the percent of students who re-enroll or pass their classes. This causes colleges to assign the easiest teachers to high school students taking college credit classes.

 

[Flash]

Anecdotes, anecdotes, anecdotes.

That's all your argument is here.

Anecdotes.

I have no reason to trust the truthfulness of these, and given your habit of holding back exculpatory information or just plain making shit up, how can I trust the veracity of this nonsense that has more plot holes than a Fast & Furious movie???

Seriously, do you think so little of me that you feel you can do some "ends justify the means" bullshit here?

Fuck you, then.

I take back all my apologies to you.

You reject anything that does not fit your ideological straight-jacket. Calling a person a liar when you have no evidence except you don't want to believe is the worst kind of bad faith. And, it makes a liar out of your. These are common experiences of college professors--they are not limited to me. Some colleges mandate what the class average has to be.

 

[LV426]

I could give you even worse examples about federal job training programs or congressional pork projects I was involved in

You understand I'm rightfully skeptical about experiences filtered through your unique, personal bias.

The point is that we could cut a lot of federal spending without hurting a person who really needs it.

Spending isn't why we have deficits...tax cuts are.

Clinton increased spending by 32% from 1993-2001, yet produced record budget surpluses including the largest budget surplus of all time.

Bush cut taxes by at least $2T from 2001-2009, yet produced record budget deficits including the largest budget deficit of all time.

As we've seen, most federal welfare spending was either cut, or barely grew during the Bush the Dumber years, yet the personal savings rate plunged and the household debt rate increased. We also had an economy that was almost entirely reliant on Mortgage Equity Withdrawals people were doing so they could pay the rising costs of tuition (4% each year) and health care (6% each year).

 

[Flash]

BULLSHIT.

How would you have known what students were picking up checks to call Financial Aid and ask?

If a student never attended I would call financial aid and ask if that student was still enrolled and they would tell me. Sometimes they would tell me they have picked up their check. It is very easy. You have a very naive view of how the world works. You are willing to believe anything evil about the private sector but don't think government employees can be just as greedy.

I could call you a liar about everything you say, but that is a juvenile response.

 

[LV426]

Sounds like a good argument to gut that program. We don't want those red states getting our taxes.

Sounds like a good argument to return the program back to what it was before Conservatives got their greedy, welfare-hungry fingers into it so they could continue with the charade that low taxes are good for anything.

 

[Flash]

No, bad faith is making up, exaggerating, or embellishing anecdotes to lend your argument credibility that it doesn't otherwise have on the facts.

YOU KNOW there is no way for me to verify your claims, and YOU KNOW there is no way you would ever provide me with the avenues to do so, so YOU KNOW you are working from a place where I must accept what you're saying as truthful when YOU KNOW you've given me no reason to do so.

And there is no way to verify your claims that tax cuts cause people to save less and incur more debt because government spending declines. That are so many holes in that story it is not funny. But the point is that you don't know if this is true but you are making the claim, anyway. What does your chart show about Clinton's tax cuts or Reagan's tax increases?

The long term trend was down for savings and up for debt through a series of tax cuts and increases. But you try to make connections that don't exist and then question the credibility of others.

 

[LV426]

All your professors took attendance in every class? Even those in classes of 100-200?

That's what TA's were for.

At least, that's what they did when I went to college.

Maybe things have changed since the late 90's, but I doubt it.

Besides, even if you skipped the class but still aced the test, you got credit for the class because you passed the final.

But none of this explains how you, as a professor, was able to get the confidential financial aid info on all 200 of your students.

 

[LV426]

I never taught or attended a college where professors were required to keep attendance (at least nothing that was enforced).

Maybe that should tell you something about the institution that employed you and what their standards are.

 

[LV426]

Sometimes I would get a call from Financial Aid to see if a student was attending because they were getting a grant.

So...they were enforcing it then.

So...what you said before, how they didn't, was bullshit, wasn't it?

So...why are you continuing to bullshit me, Flash?

 

[LV426]

You don't have to have any liason, if a student flunks a class (whether he attended or not) should not be able to keep getting a grant if his grades fall below a C average. Instead, there are many loopholes despite what the website says

I guess I'll have to take your word for it since you can't provide any proof or evidence to support yourself.

Oh wait, no I don't!

I don't have to take any shit you say here seriously since it's anecdotal and filtered through the prism of your inherent biases.

Why not stick to facts that can be verified?

I don't lean on anecdotes, so why do you?

 

[LV426]

There is a difference between skipping classes and flunking out, but if a student never attends or does any work he is going to flunk out theoretically.

Unless, of course, they ace the final...which happens too.

They don't necessarily need to be in class to pass it...if it's a class that has basically a midterm and a final, they can show up for just both those, ace both of them, and not show up to any other class.

In that scenario, you would flunk the student because they didn't show up to all the classes?

Or would you narc on them to get their financial aid taken away because you have it in your old-fashioned head that students must attend every class?

 

[LV426]

When I was in college I assumed that occurred but now I know many are allowed to re-enroll even if they do not meet the standards. This is especially true at community colleges that are open admissions because they have a higher drop out/failure rate which lowers their funding. And today, accreditation standards emphasize "student success" which is usually measured by the percent of students who re-enroll or pass their classes. This causes colleges to assign the easiest teachers to high school students taking college credit classes.

Gee, seems like free public colleges would be the only solution to your concern trolling here.

Make them all free, then leave it up to the students to take advantage of it, like high school.

 

[LV426]

You reject anything that does not fit your ideological straight-jacket

I've made it very clear on these boards that I do not accept anecdotal evidence, and that I am even reticent to using them myself because of how ineffective and unconvincing they are.

The problem with anecdotes is that they're filtered through bias; so you will never get a clean, fair, unbiased anecdote.

I've been taught to ignore anecdotes, and that they're a crutch used by people who don't have adequate source material to back themselves up.

I see it all over the fucking place on these boards. How many people claim to be "small business owners" or "veterans" or "married to an (insert minority group here)" or whose Obamacare premiums "skyrocketed by a bajillion percent"?

Enough's enough.

 

[LV426]

Calling a person a liar when you have no evidence except you don't want to believe is the worst kind of bad faith.

No, bad faith is expecting me to accommodate your anecdote because it's the only thing that lends support to your argument.

 

[LV426]

These are common experiences of college professors--they are not limited to me. Some colleges mandate what the class average has to be.

If you cannot make an argument without relying on anecdotes, then it's not an argument worth making.

Full stop.

 

[Flash]

You are the one who said you knew what students in your class got Pell Grants and which didn't.

I never said that (READ). I said, for example, if a student never attended I would call financial aid to check on them before I dropped them to make sure there were no unknown problems, they would sometimes tell me that the student was on a grant.

However, with 32% of undergraduates on Pell Grants you know it is a lot of them. Only half of students at four year universities who got Pell Grants graduated within six years. At community colleges the percentage was even lower.

 

[LV426]

If a student never attended I would call financial aid and ask if that student was still enrolled and they would tell me

They would tell you if the student was enrolled, not what that student's level of financial aid was because it's not pertinent to you as a professor, and it's confidential.

Enough's enough.

Stop bullshitting me.