More Traitor Monuments .....Gone

sear said:
"I disagree that it's a slippery slope issue. It's fairly cut and dried."

"So Lee goes and Jefferson stays. Simple." M 74 & k 75

Are you Black, descended from enslaved Negros?
If so, then you are entitled to one opinion, the expression of your own personal preference.

But if not you have neither the moral authority nor the legal right to dictate to descendants of America's enslaved what shall offend them, and what shall not.

Case in point:

Thomas Jefferson was not merely a slave owner, but also a slave rapist *.
Forcing descendants of America's former enslaved to attend Thomas Jefferson high school is as offensive as forcing descendants of holocaust survivors to attend Adolf Hitler high school.

Your admittedly "simple" formula is simply wrong, for reasons including it's not consistent with the position of the plaintiffs.

* Please spare me your ignorant spew about Sally Hemmings consenting. Hemmings was Jefferson's slave. BY LEGAL DEFINITION a slave cannot give legal consent, for the slave / master relationship is intrinsically coercive, and coerced consent is not legally binding.
And your simple formula for that is: "Jefferson stays". Why? Because it's not offensive to YOU ?!?!

Not only that. We're not merely discussing a statue in Jefferson's case. This pervasive fervor to obliterate the evidence of our ugly disgraceful past extends beyond statuary in Jefferson's case. There's not merely the Jefferson Memorial in DC. There's also the U of V, Monticello, among other reminders. And let us not forget the U.S.' ubiquitous five cent coin.
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Before you will be able to get people on board with removing all evidence of homage to Thomas Jefferson you are going to have to educate the collective consciousness to believe that this man is singularly an evil man instead
of an author of the US Constitution, great political stateman, architect, inventor and everything else everyone has been taught about him. That is a tough row to hoe. Can't say it won't happen ever, but that man is too woven into
the fabric of US culture and lionized, almost cannonized to cause his great moral failing to upend all that. I don't see that happening anytime soon. Men like Davis or Lee are basically known for one thing, serving directly and
at the highest level the confederacy. If you decide to eradicate Jefferson, you may as well burn all the flags of the US, warts and all.

I draw a distinction thgat I see as clear between acknowledging US problems and people who morally failed like, say Jefferson and Nixon and Trump,
on the one hand, and those who raised arms against the US. The latter group are a rallying cry for modern day white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads.
 
Threedee said:
It's very simple, really. This is not Doucheland or the Confederacy. In America, we choose not to have a culture as degenerate as that of the Nazis or the Confederates. We also do not need to honor their fallen, given that they represented evil and degenerate ways of life.
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Strange how you consider fighting back against an abusive, overbearing federal government operating outside the Constitution as representing evil and degenerate way of life. Does that mean you believe in an overbearing, abusive federal government running things?
 
Micawber said:
It's funny, these people are technically traitors to the US even though its just beliefs and they are too cowardly to given action to the beliefs. They see the US Federal Government as "the other"
and therefore bristle at any action taking by it. That is why their party of choice is not really a representative to government, it is a representative with an agenda to dismantle government. So they want to starve it
for revenue, cut all its programs, limit its authority in the demarcation between state and federal, etc.

Even to the point that they support statues of people who once raised arms against this government. How can they argue they are not traitors. Reminds me of the old joke about the wealthy man who
offers the gentlewomen a million to sleep with him, she says yes, then he offers $100 and she says "what kind of woman do you take me for" He responds "we've already established that now we are
just negotiating price. Amazing these Republican scoundrels will admit to treason on the cheap.
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The Constitution makes that demarcation between state and federal. If you don't like it, move out of MY country and go somewhere more suited to your leftwing agenda.
 
noise said:
exactly// there are historical monuments.
The intolerant left doesn't like the history, so they tear it down, just like ISIS tears down what it hates
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Incredibly ignorant.

If there is a comparison to ISIS to be made, it would be with those who celebrate slavery and its history of traitors.
 
Personally I don't give a fuck whether right-wingers like the monuments coming down or not. Fuck em'.

All that matters is the monuments to traitors and monsters are indeed coming down as their history is being re-written.

Don't like it ... GOOD. I'm glad that you don't.
 
CFM said:
Strange how you consider fighting back against an abusive, overbearing federal government operating outside the Constitution as representing evil and degenerate way of life. Does that mean you believe in an overbearing, abusive federal government running things?
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What were those abuses? The CSA simply stated that it wanted to preserve slavery and that the purity of the white race must be defended.
 
blackascoal said:
Personally I don't give a fuck whether right-wingers like the monuments coming down or not. Fuck em'.

All that matters is the monuments to traitors and monsters are indeed coming down as their history is being re-written.

Don't like it ... GOOD. I'm glad that you don't.
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I think the real story here is the racists are losing in the south and its about time.
 
blackascoal said:
Personally I don't give a fuck whether right-wingers like the monuments coming down or not. Fuck em'.

All that matters is the monuments to traitors and monsters are indeed coming down as their history is being re-written.

Don't like it ... GOOD. I'm glad that you don't.
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its shows just how racist these fucks are that they can not see the differance between civil war assholes who fought on the wrong side and real founders


that they can not admitt that these statues coming down were put up well after the civil war to SCARE the black people on town.


they refuse the real hsitory

that is why they need to be publically shamed for their stupid racism
 
evince said:
its shows just how racist these fucks are that they can not see the differance between civil war assholes who fought on the wrong side and real founders


that they can not admitt that these statues coming down were put up well after the civil war to SCARE the black people on town.


they refuse the real hsitory

that is why they need to be publically shamed for their stupid racism
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They have no shame, no honor.

Fuck 'em.
 
"Before you will be able to get people on board with removing all evidence of homage to Thomas Jefferson you are going to have to educate the collective consciousness to believe that this man is singularly an evil man instead
of an author of the US Constitution, great political stateman, architect, inventor and everything else everyone has been taught about him." M #122
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Thank you for so skillfully pirouetting through the mine-field. I'll try to knock some of the coarser burs off.

a) It's not my attempt at "removing all evidence of homage to Thomas Jefferson". EXTREMELY to the contrary. I'm trying to point out, and have already done so explicitly by quoting Kundera, that considering humans as either 100% good or purely evil is silly, and almost certainly never true, except in the case of the still-born.

b) Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence, with Adams & Franklin his editors. It is Madison, not Jefferson that is associated with the Constitutional Convention, the Federalist Papers, etc.

c) If we are ever to only always erect monuments to what YOU deem good, then why is there a memorial at the site where Manhattan's twin towers once stood? Because UBL wasn't really such a bad bloke after all?! I don't THINK so !!
"Men like Davis or Lee are basically known for one thing, serving directly and at the highest level the confederacy. If you decide to eradicate Jefferson, you may as well burn all the flags of the US, warts and all." M #122
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This is such an important point.
By sweeping it under the rug, we do ourselves and subsequent generations no favors.

LOOKIT !!

If the orphans were all unshod, stumbling through the snow barefoot, malnourished, and starving, and somebody was advocating taking the orphanage's meager budget and blowing the whole bundle* on a grand bronze statue of some Rebel hooligan, that dirt-ball advocate should be drawn & quartered.

BUT THE STATUARY IS ALREADY HERE!! THE $$MONEY IS ALREADY SPENT !! NO AMOUNT OF SWEEPING IT UNDER THE RUGGING IS GUNNA UNRING THE BELL !!!

I'm not justifying slavery. I'm not making excuses for the evil-doers, or the evil they did. But those that do not study history are destined to repeat it.
And this statuary is a special reminder that it's not merely a historian's story published in a book that sits on a dusty shelf.
It immediately and irrefutably dispels any potential for the myth that - it can't happen here -. IT ALREADY HAS !!!

It is not me the self-righteous should be angry at. It is the revisionists of history that want to remove the statues, the monuments that are already there. However well intentioned it / they may be, it is a SPECTACULARLY bad idea!

* "Every gun that is made, every warship that is launched, every rocket that is fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children ..." President Dwight D. Eisenhower
 
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