Century-old Francis Scott Key monument defaced with 'racist anthem' in Baltimore

[Phantasmal]

You have no problem with a monument to the one that wrote it being defaced.

Get the fuck out anyway, traitor.

He never said that, another that sees things that aren't there.

 

[Airstrip One]

The best sources I've seen on this say the term "Civil War" was the term most used during the war itself.
Historian look for contemporaneous usage as source material.. So I think that is the best term.

The goals was secession and a peacable diplomatic relationship with these/the United States.
Yes they wanted a separate government -while the other you mentioned wanted to take over the existing government - but what difference does that make?

It was a civil War for secession rather then a civil war of conquest.
But they still considered themselves part of the American people (et all) as a whole.
They had grievances against the US government -not it's people..afterall many were brothers.

Well, there you have it. Typically, we call such a conflict a war of independence. Had both sides been fighting for control of DC, then it would be a civil war. Lincoln, himself, was using the term "civil war," so I'm well aware that it was being used at the time. Historians know what the term means, however.

 

[Airstrip One]

So, there were good people on both sides at Charlottesville?

No.

 

[anatta]

That is not what I or anyone else has said, you read stuff into what people say. People wanting statuary out of public places is not abolishing history, they may still read about it ina book, on TV, the internet and at great grandpappy's knee, but I repeat myself.

or put it in a museum, or box it up and stick it in your grandpappy's closet..maybe under his old Playboy magazines..

You make excuses for those who want to eradicate our history..Those jerks aren't interested in anything but abolishing all references to anyone who they find politically incorrect

 

[dukkha]

Well, there you have it. Typically, we call such a conflict a war of independence. Had both sides been fighting for control of DC, then it would be a civil war. Lincoln, himself, was using the term "civil war," so I'm well aware that it was being used at the time. Historians know what the term means, however.

don't forget the Russians and the Chinese were vying for power after collapse of a government (monarchy).
So that parallel isn't exact.

You are like the only person in the world that wants to debate the fact it wasn't a civil war.

 

[Phantasmal]

or put it in a museum, or box it up and stick it in your grandpappy's closet..maybe under his old Playboy magazines..

You make excuses for those who want to eradicate our history..Those jerks aren't interested in anything but abolishing all references to anyone who they find politically incorrect

Hyperbole

 

[Darth Omar]

Jefferson? He wrote the Declaration of Independence. Lee took up arms against the country.

Is that a super crazy hard distinction for you?

So, using slaves for sex is mitigated under some circumstances?

 

[Darth Omar]

No.

Thanks for proving my point about the moral absolutists.

Anyone who disagrees with those who advocate removing historical monuments is a racist. How do we keep this issue on the front burner?

Because Steve Bannon nailed it---it's a winning issue for republicans.

 

[dukkha]

Hyperbole

you don't want to hear it but it's accurate..
Jerks who deface statues of Columbus, or Francis Scott Key, Jefferson are not interested in nuance/compromise.
They are out to use a Stalinesque purge -remove all the statues and wipe the names out of our history.

It's the same with Confederate statues..a thoughtful approach would be to have local historical commissions deciding which are of historic value or which are pure racist. But localities aren't doing that.

Do you see any deliberation as to which statues come down and which remain in New Orleans, or Baltimore? (ex.)
No. there is only a hysterical rushing to take them all down

 

[dukkha]

Thanks for proving my point about the moral absolutists.

Anyone who disagrees with those who advocate removing historical monuments is a racist. How do we keep this issue on the front burner?
Because Steve Bannon nailed it---it's a winning issue for republicans.

It's all part of the extreme left's culture wars.
Unfortunately the extreme left is taking over the MS/center of that party( Dems)

 

[Darth Omar]

you don't want to hear it but it's accurate..
Jerks who deface statues of Columbus, or Francis Scott Key, Jefferson are not interested in nuance/compromise.
They are out to use a Stalinesque purge -remove all the statues and wipe the names out of our history.

It's the same with Confederate statues..a thoughtful approach would be to have local historical commissions deciding which are of historic value or which are pure racist. But localities aren't doing that.

Do you see any deliberation as to which statues come down and which remain in New Orleans, or Baltimore? (ex.)
No. there is only a hysterical rushing to take them all down

You hit the nail on the head.

Joe Stalin would be proud of the monument purgers. Even as most of them are afflicted with Russia phobia.

 

[dukkha]

You hit the nail on the head.

Joe Stalin would be proud of the monument purgers. Even as most of them are afflicted with Russia phobia.

lol..talk about conflicted..

I'm tired of emotionalism instead of rational thought being used to determine our history.
I get the Confederate statues ARE emotional for some..
More the reason to study what goes up and what comes down in a thoughtful, deliberate manner.

The rest of these goofballs who see racism in the Star Spangled Banner/Columbus are hopeless
and need to be pushed to the side

 

[Darth Omar]

It's all part of the extreme left's culture wars.
Unfortunately the extreme left is taking over the MS/center of that party( Dems)

That's my political point in this.

Thing thinks it's no biggie, but all you need to do is look at the poll numbers. Nationally, 60% favor leaving the monuments alone and amongst black Americans more favor leaving them alone [44% vs 40%] than removing them. The presence of civil war monuments is the Mother of non-issues amongst a clear majority of voters.

This is being driven by unhinged white leftists and the farther they run with it, the better.

 

[anatta]

That's my political point in this.

Thing thinks it's no biggie, but all you need to do is look at the poll numbers. Nationally, 60% favor leaving the monuments alone and amongst black Americans more favor leaving them alone [44% vs 40%] than removing them. The presence of civil war monuments is the Mother of non-issues amongst a clear majority of voters.

This is being driven by unhinged white leftists and the farther they run with it, the better.

very true.
I'm somewhat surprised at those black numbers but it shows you the majority black population isn't
whacked out leftists either..

Dem's are unhinged. The radical left has taken over their agenda.
It's a big reason Trump won -not the only reason-but they are intent on throwing out the centrists.

I was a happy enough camper in the Democratic party under Bill Clinton. I would have stayed there.
Under Obama they skewed to both political correctness and leftists type radicalism.
Everybody they disagree with has become a Deplorable

 

[Airstrip One]

don't forget the Russians and the Chinese were vying for power after collapse of a government (monarchy).
So that parallel isn't exact.

You are like the only person in the world that wants to debate the fact it wasn't a civil war.

Actually, a lot of southern apologists have debated the fact over the years, which, I think is why you don't see more pro-American apologists leaping to make the argument.

Also, the Chinese monarchy was toppled by the Nationalist revolution in 1911. They were attempting to re-establish themselves after the Japanese invasion. Similarly, the Russian monarchy was toppled in March, and there was briefly a Russian Republic for seven months in 1917.

 

[anatta]

Actually, a lot of southern apologists have debated the fact over the years, which, I think is why you don't see more pro-American apologists leaping to make the argument.

Also, the Chinese monarchy was toppled by the Nationalist revolution in 1911. They were attempting to re-establish themselves after the Japanese invasion. Similarly, the Russian monarchy was toppled in March, and there was briefly a Russian Republic for seven months in 1917.

well you get this "war of northern aggression" stuff and Lord knows what other terminology-
but the consensus is it was a civil war.

Interesting on the Chinese /Russians -I had no idea of any Russian republic. Thanks for that

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

So, using slaves for sex is mitigated under some circumstances?

Who said that?

You get more dopey w/ each post. I'm genuinely concerned about you.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

you don't want to hear it but it's accurate..
Jerks who deface statues of Columbus, or Francis Scott Key, Jefferson are not interested in nuance/compromise.
They are out to use a Stalinesque purge -remove all the statues and wipe the names out of our history.

It's the same with Confederate statues..a thoughtful approach would be to have local historical commissions deciding which are of historic value or which are pure racist. But localities aren't doing that.

Do you see any deliberation as to which statues come down and which remain in New Orleans, or Baltimore? (ex.)
No. there is only a hysterical rushing to take them all down

I don't suppose you have ANY idea about how ironic the nuance/compromise comments are coming from a Trump supporter?

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

lol..talk about conflicted..

I'm tired of emotionalism instead of rational thought being used to determine our history.
I get the Confederate statues ARE emotional for some..
More the reason to study what goes up and what comes down in a thoughtful, deliberate manner.

The rest of these goofballs who see racism in the Star Spangled Banner/Columbus are hopeless
and need to be pushed to the side

More reason to "study"?

People can study them all they want. What YOU need to get is that constructing a statue for someone is an honor, and a celebration of their lives in many cases. How you can't see the problem there is such an insane disconnect.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

That's my political point in this.

Thing thinks it's no biggie, but all you need to do is look at the poll numbers. Nationally, 60% favor leaving the monuments alone and amongst black Americans more favor leaving them alone [44% vs 40%] than removing them. The presence of civil war monuments is the Mother of non-issues amongst a clear majority of voters.

This is being driven by unhinged white leftists and the farther they run with it, the better.

I love how important the polls are when they favor your POV.

How's about Trump's approval there, Darthie? How is that one panning out for '18 and '20?

I'm sure people will care more about the monument thing than how they feel about POTUS and the majority. Not.