the dog you will not hear bark in the war-on-Syria debate.

anatta

100% recycled karma
No Syrian War to Save Obama’s Face!

“Catastrophic!” said Sen. John McCain.

If Congress votes no on a resolution calling for U.S. intervention in Syria’s civil war, says McCain, it would be “catastrophic” for U.S. credibility in the world.

Consider what the senator is saying here.

Because Barack Obama, two years ago, said “Assad must go,” and, one year ago, said any use of chemical weapons crosses his “red line,” Congress has no choice but to plunge America into yet another Mideast war.

Can this be? Are we really, as a nation, required to go to war to make good the simple-minded statements of an untutored president who had no constitutional authority to issue his impulsive ultimata?

Are we really required to go to war to get the egg off Obama’s face?

Not since the War of Jenkins’ Ear has there been a dumber cause for a great country to go to war. Is there no way out?

There is, and it’s right in front of us.

The House, Senate or both can vote no on the war resolution and Obama can then say, as did David Cameron, that, while he disagrees, he respects the decision of a Congress in which the Constitution placed sole authority to authorize America’s going to war.

Are Brits now crying “catastrophe!”? Do the Spanish no longer think the Brits will defend Gibraltar? Is Britain now wholly non-credible to the world?

For Obama, and for us, it is the other options that invite catastrophe.

If, for example, the House or Senate votes down the war resolution and Obama, without authorization from Congress, the Security Council, NATO or the Arab League plunges us into a new war this nation does not want to fight, he will be courting a geostrategic and political disaster.

Even if Congress approves a war resolution, the president should think long and hard about diving into a war he sought to avoid and stayed out of for over two years.
Make no mistake; if Obama attacks Syria, be it for hours or days, we are in that blood-soaked abattoir for the duration.

In his dramatic statement Saturday, as politically astute as it was constitutionally correct, Obama called Syria “someone else’s war.”

Whose war? It is Shia Alawite vs. Sunni, Muslim vs. Christian, Kurd vs. Arab, Islamist vs. secularist. Backing Bashar Assad are Iran, Hezbollah and Russia.

Backing the rebels are Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states, al-Qaida, foreign jihadists and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Assad is accused of killing 100,00 people. But that is the total of the dead in a civil war Assad has as much right to fight as the rebels.

While his army is accused of using gas on civilians, the Islamist rebels have murdered Christians, massacred captives and engaged in public acts of cannibalism on dead Syrian soldiers.

Gas is a sickening weapon. Yet, there is no evidence thus far that Assad ordered its use. Rebel elements are said to have been found with sarin.

As for Americans who tend to prefer white phosphorus, napalm and cluster bombs, upon what lofty moral ground do we stand?


Have we forgotten that Churchill wanted to drop anthrax on Germany and settled for two days of firebombing the defenseless city of Dresden? Or that our great friend Anwar Sadat was the confidante of Gamal Abdel Nasser when Egypt was using poison gas on Yemeni tribesmen?

The United States does not have any national security interest in Syria’s war. Why would we then launch missile attacks to “degrade” Assad’s military, when that army and air force are all that stands between us and a privileged sanctuary for al-Qaida in northern Syria, not unlike what al-Qaida had in Tora Bora and Waziristan.

We are told that if we do not strike Syria – making good on Obama’s threats – Israel, Turkey and even Japan and South Korea will not be able to trust us ever again.

What nonsense. We have treaties with Japan and South Korea. As for Turkey and Israel, if what is happening in Syria is outrageous and dangerous, why do they not act? Why do they keep tugging at our sleeve?

The Israeli Air force is five minutes from Damascus, its army a two-day march. The Turks have three times Syria’s population and a 400,000-man army equipped with NATO weapons. Together, they could invade and turn the tide in a week. Why do they not man up?

McCain and Sen. Lindsey Graham came out of the Oval Office saying Obama was open to wider strikes on Syria and more lethal support for the rebels. As Iran, Hezbollah and Russia would then upgrade their own weapons shipments to Damascus, this will mean more dead, more wounded, more tens of thousands fleeing into exile and a longer war.

But what it will likely end with, after America is dragooned in, is a U.S. war with Iran; our allies, sitting in their box seats, cheering us on.

And that is the dog you will not hear bark in the war-on-Syria debate.

http://original.antiwar.com/buchanan/2013/09/03/no-syrian-war-to-save-obamas-face/
 
who else said chem weapons on your own people is unacceptable?

do you know?
Syrian rebels are not "own people" not exclusively, many foreign jihadists.

This is an't about chem weapons as I've tried to show you - it's about Iran/ saving Obama's face, and just the generalized war drums of US jingoism
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Protocol


Geneva Protocol


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation, search


For other uses, see Geneva Protocol (disambiguation).

Geneva Protocol


Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare


Drafted
17 June 1925[1]

Signed
17 June 1925[1]

Location
Geneva[1]

Effective
8 February 1928[1]

Condition
Ratification by 65 states[2]

Signatories
38[1]

Parties
138[3]

Depositary
Government of France[1]
Geneva Protocol to Hague Convention at Wikisource

The Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, usually called the Geneva Protocol, is a treaty prohibiting the first use of chemical and biological weapons. It was signed at Geneva on 17 June 1925 and entered into force on 8 February 1928. It was registered in League of Nations Treaty Series on 7 September 1929.[4] The Geneva Protocol is a protocol to the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907.

It prohibits the use of "asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases, and of all analogous liquids, materials or devices" and "bacteriological methods of warfare". This is now understood to be a general prohibition on chemical weapons and biological weapons, but has nothing to say about production, storage or transfer. Later treaties did cover these aspects — the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention (BWC) and the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC).

A number of countries submitted reservations when becoming parties to the Geneva Protocol, declaring that they only regarded the non-use obligations as applying to other parties and that these obligations would cease to apply if the prohibited weapons were used against them.

The main elements of the protocol are now considered by many to be part of customary international law.
 
if Obama attacks Syria, be it for hours or days, we are in that blood-soaked abattoir for the duration.

In his dramatic statement Saturday, as politically astute as it was constitutionally correct, Obama called Syria “someone else’s war.”

Whose war? It is Shia Alawite vs. Sunni, Muslim vs. Christian, Kurd vs. Arab, Islamist vs. secularist. Backing Bashar Assad are Iran, Hezbollah and Russia.
read the OP's EVINCE, there are numerous threads on Syria -I've tried to diversify them into seperate ideas, that encompass the same theme.

Simply posting WIKI chem weapons protocols, isn't enough to say we need to "degrade Assad. train up and arm rebels, etc".

I get your point - I am saying this isn't enough, it's a factor -agreed (chems) but not what should be driving US policy.

And it is not by itself -look deeper in to the situation, would be my suggestion
 
why is it the people who see the intell that cant be released yet all step right over to the Obama side on this one?
 
why is it the people who see the intell that cant be released yet all step right over to the Obama side on this one?
If you mean the Foreign Relations Committee, they are by nature more hawkish..

The US has this idea of American Exceptionalism, we are supposed to be some kind of world arbitor -how we wound up in all these wars in such a short period of time.

I don't care about "supporting Obama" -he's cut from the same cloth as Bush/Cheney.

But he is POTUS, and has the ability (along with his lapdog Kerry) to gin this up -which has been done in testimony.
gEither you get this idea -or you don't -what I'm saying is chem weapons are a facile idea, you don't see Israell or Turkey saying war?

Hell even the Brits, finally showed some sense on this - but the US is stuck with this mindset, that we have to make all the world "just so".

I'm sure it will pass (authorization), I'm equally sure this is madness
 
If you mean the Foreign Relations Committee, they are by nature more hawkish..

The US has this idea of American Exceptionalism, we are supposed to be some kind of world arbitor -how we wound up in all these wars in such a short period of time.

I don't care about "supporting Obama" -he's cut from the same cloth as Bush/Cheney.

But he is POTUS, and has the ability (along with his lapdog Kerry) to gin this up -which has been done in testimony.
gEither you get this idea -or you don't -what I'm saying is chem weapons are a facile idea, you don't see Israell or Turkey saying war?

Hell even the Brits, finally showed some sense on this - but the US is stuck with this mindset, that we have to make all the world "just so".

I'm sure it will pass (authorization), I'm equally sure this is madness




bullshit


just saying it doesn't make it so
 
you don't know the intel.

what makes you so sure sans all the information?
Actual Text of US First Report on Syrian Incidents




U.S. Government Assessment of the Syrian Government’s

Use of Chemical Weapons on August 21, 2013



The United States Government assesses with high confidence that the Syrian government carried
out a chemical weapons attack in the Damascus suburbs on August 21, 2013. We further assess
that the regime used a nerve agent in the attack. These all-source assessments are based on
human, signals, and geospatial intelligence as well as a significant body of open source
reporting. Our classified assessments have been shared with the U.S. Congress and key
international partners. To protect sources and methods, we cannot publicly release all available
intelligence – but what follows is an unclassified summary of the U.S. Intelligence Community’s
analysis of what took place.



Syrian Government Use of Chemical Weapons on August 21

A large body of independent sources indicates that a chemical weapons attack took place in the
Damascus suburbs on August 21. In addition to U.S. intelligence information, there are accounts
from international and Syrian medical personnel; videos; witness accounts; thousands of social
media reports from at least 12 different locations in the Damascus area; journalist accounts; and
reports from highly credible nongovernmental organizations.

A preliminary U.S. government assessment determined that 1,429 people were killed in the
chemical weapons attack, including at least 426 children, though this assessment will certainly
evolve as we obtain more information.

We assess with high confidence that the Syrian government carried out the chemical weapons
attack against opposition elements in the Damascus suburbs on August 21. We assess that the
scenario in which the opposition executed the attack on August 21 is highly unlikely. The body
of information used to make this assessment includes intelligence pertaining to the regime’s
preparations for this attack and its means of delivery, multiple streams of intelligence about the
attack itself and its effect, our post-attack observations, and the differences between the
capabilities of the regime and the opposition. Our high confidence assessment is the strongest
position that the U.S. Intelligence Community can take short of confirmation. We will continue
to seek additional information to close gaps in our understanding of what took place.








Background:

The Syrian regime maintains a stockpile of numerous chemical agents, including mustard, sarin,
and VX and has thousands of munitions that can be used to deliver chemical warfare agents.

Syrian President Bashar al-Asad is the ultimate decision maker for the chemical weapons
program and members of the program are carefully vetted to ensure security and loyalty. The
Syrian Scientific Studies and Research Center (SSRC) – which is subordinate to the Syrian
Ministry of Defense – manages Syria’s chemical weapons program.

We assess with high confidence that the Syrian regime has used chemical weapons on a small
scale against the opposition multiple times in the last year, including in the Damascus suburbs.
This assessment is based on multiple streams of information including reporting of Syrian
officials planning and executing chemical weapons attacks and laboratory analysis of
physiological samples obtained from a number of individuals, which revealed exposure to sarin.
We assess that the opposition has not used chemical weapons.

The Syrian regime has the types of munitions that we assess were used to carry out the attack on
August 21, and has the ability to strike simultaneously in multiple locations. We have seen no
indication that the opposition has carried out a large-scale, coordinated rocket and artillery attack
like the one that occurred on August 21.

We assess that the Syrian regime has used chemical weapons over the last year primarily to gain
the upper hand or break a stalemate in areas where it has struggled to seize and hold strategically
valuable territory. In this regard, we continue to judge that the Syrian regime views chemical
weapons as one of many tools in its arsenal, including air power and ballistic missiles, which
they indiscriminately use against the opposition.

The Syrian regime has initiated an effort to rid the Damascus suburbs of opposition forces using
the area as a base to stage attacks against regime targets in the capital. The regime has failed to
clear dozens of Damascus neighborhoods of opposition elements, including neighborhoods
targeted on August 21, despite employing nearly all of its conventional weapons systems. We
assess that the regime’s frustration with its inability to secure large portions of Damascus may
have contributed to its decision to use chemical weapons on August 21.






Preparation:

We have intelligence that leads us to assess that Syrian chemical weapons personnel – including
personnel assessed to be associated with the SSRC – were preparing chemical munitions prior to
the attack. In the three days prior to the attack, we collected streams of human, signals and
geospatial intelligence that reveal regime activities that we assess were associated with
preparations for a chemical weapons attack.

Syrian chemical weapons personnel were operating in the Damascus suburb of ‘Adra from
Sunday, August 18 until early in the morning on Wednesday, August 21 near an area that the
regime uses to mix chemical weapons, including sarin. On August 21, a Syrian regime element
prepared for a chemical weapons attack in the Damascus area, including through the utilization
of gas masks. Our intelligence sources in the Damascus area did not detect any indications in the
days prior to the attack that opposition affiliates were planning to use chemical weapons.



The Attack:

Multiple streams of intelligence indicate that the regime executed a rocket and artillery attack
against the Damascus suburbs in the early hours of August 21. Satellite detections corroborate
that attacks from a regime-controlled area struck neighborhoods where the chemical attacks
reportedly occurred – including Kafr Batna, Jawbar, ‘Ayn Tarma, Darayya, and Mu’addamiyah.
This includes the detection of rocket launches from regime controlled territory early in the
morning, approximately 90 minutes before the first report of a chemical attack appeared in social
media. The lack of flight activity or missile launches also leads us to conclude that the regime
used rockets in the attack.

Local social media reports of a chemical attack in the Damascus suburbs began at 2:30 a.m. local
time on August 21. Within the next four hours there were thousands of social media reports on
this attack from at least 12 different locations in the Damascus area. Multiple accounts described
chemical-filled rockets impacting opposition-controlled areas.

Three hospitals in the Damascus area received approximately 3,600 patients displaying
symptoms consistent with nerve agent exposure in less than three hours on the morning of
August 21, according to a highly credible international humanitarian organization. The reported
symptoms, and the epidemiological pattern of events – characterized by the massive influx of
patients in a short period of time, the origin of the patients, and the contamination of medical and
first aid workers – were consistent with mass exposure to a nerve agent. We also received reports
from international and Syrian medical personnel on the ground.




We have identified one hundred videos attributed to the attack, many of which show large
numbers of bodies exhibiting physical signs consistent with, but not unique to, nerve agent
exposure. The reported symptoms of victims included unconsciousness, foaming from the nose
and mouth, constricted pupils, rapid heartbeat, and difficulty breathing. Several of the videos
show what appear to be numerous fatalities with no visible injuries, which is consistent with
death from chemical weapons, and inconsistent with death from small-arms, high-explosive
munitions or blister agents. At least 12 locations are portrayed in the publicly available videos,
and a sampling of those videos confirmed that some were shot at the general times and locations
described in the footage.

We assess the Syrian opposition does not have the capability to fabricate all of the videos,
physical symptoms verified by medical personnel and NGOs, and other information associated
with this chemical attack.

We have a body of information, including past Syrian practice, that leads us to conclude that
regime officials were witting of and directed the attack on August 21. We intercepted
communications involving a senior official intimately familiar with the offensive who confirmed
that chemical weapons were used by the regime on August 21 and was concerned with the U.N.
inspectors obtaining evidence. On the afternoon of August 21, we have intelligence that Syrian
chemical weapons personnel were directed to cease operations. At the same time, the regime
intensified the artillery barrage targeting many of the neighborhoods where chemical attacks
occurred. In the 24 hour period after the attack, we detected indications of artillery and rocket
fire at a rate approximately four times higher than the ten preceding days. We continued to see
indications of sustained shelling in the neighborhoods up until the morning of August 26.

To conclude, there is a substantial body of information that implicates the Syrian government’s
responsibility in the chemical weapons attack that took place on August 21. As indicated, there is
additional intelligence that remains classified because of sources and methods concerns that is
being provided to Congress and international partners.
 
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