America could still go over the cliff and take the rest of us with it

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Simon Heffer always make a lot of sense and this article is no exception.

After America postponed its jump off the fiscal cliff in the small hours of Tuesday night, world stock markets soared. Anyone listening to the BBC yesterday with its headlines praising Barack Obama would think something quite profound had changed in the world’s greatest — if battered — economy. However, it has not.
Intractable problems — chief among them chronic over-spending and weak consumer demand — have still not been solved.

The tackling of those issues has merely been postponed until the end of next month, when America’s legally enforceable ‘debt ceiling’ will probably be reached.
That will be the moment that U.S. debt passes a pre-determined point — north of $16 trillion — and a raft of dramatic public spending cuts will be triggered.
However, America’s politicians — especially its weak-willed President — may lack the guts to act even then to reduce the debt.

On Tuesday, a self-serving and pitiful compromise was reached between Republicans and Democrats to raise taxes by a small amount on the richest Americans — those earning more than £245,000 a year will pay 39.6 per cent rather than 35 per cent.

Yet those traders who propelled international markets sharply upwards as a result seem to have forgotten that America’s debt is an incomprehensible $16.3 trillion (£10 trillion) and that its politicians are failing to reduce it.

Instead — in a tactic copied from the EU’s crisis-hit attempts to prop up the euro — there may soon have to be yet another compromise, perhaps with an agreement to increase America’s debt ceiling again. That would damage a limping economy still further.

The rest of the world — dangerously reliant on a buoyant U.S. — should note one thing above all: the fundamentals of America’s economy are, frankly, terrible, and its international dominance is not nearly as assured as it once was.
 
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The rest of the world — dangerously reliant on a buoyant U.S. — should note one thing above all: the fundamentals of America’s economy are, frankly, terrible, and its international dominance is not nearly as assured as it once was.

 
I hate to say it, because I generally try to stay optimistic, but after what happened this week, the world is probably headed for a crash of epic proportions.

I just don't see any way of avoiding it. Even when confronted w/ a "cliff," politicians will always take the easy route for short-term gain.
 
I hate to say it, because I generally try to stay optimistic, but after what happened this week, the world is probably headed for a crash of epic proportions.

I just don't see any way of avoiding it. Even when confronted w/ a "cliff," politicians will always take the easy route for short-term gain.

Buy bonds...
 
Buy bonds...

I actually just read that the bond market bubble is about to burst, but who knows? They were saying to buy gold.

It probably won't matter. We could be headed for a big "re-set" sort of scenario, where our basic monetary system changes completely.
 
I hate to say it, because I generally try to stay optimistic, but after what happened this week, the world is probably headed for a crash of epic proportions.

I just don't see any way of avoiding it. Even when confronted w/ a "cliff," politicians will always take the easy route for short-term gain.

I fear that you are right, maybe it will take a bout of rampant inflation to reduce the debt.
 
The rest of the world — dangerously reliant on a buoyant U.S. — should note one thing above all: the fundamentals of America’s economy are, frankly, terrible, and its international dominance is not nearly as assured as it once was.


I like how you claim we don't have international dominance while at the same time making a thread about how if america tanks the whole world goes under.
 
I hate to say it, because I generally try to stay optimistic, but after what happened this week, the world is probably headed for a crash of epic proportions.

I just don't see any way of avoiding it. Even when confronted w/ a "cliff," politicians will always take the easy route for short-term gain.

I believe it wont happen. Here's why; the real power in our political system is with corporations. For instance, a guy like Paul Ryan, he does as he's told to do by corporate interests. He doesn't give a rat's ass about Hilda and Bubba dumbfuck in Alabama holding up signs spelling moron wrong. They just think he does.

And those guys will not permit this. They will play this out, there will be tons of theatre, Obama will probably give away the store, and in the end, they will vote the way they are ordered to vote. They will not put this country into default.
 
I believe it wont happen. Here's why; the real power in our political system is with corporations. For instance, a guy like Paul Ryan, he does as he's told to do by corporate interests. He doesn't give a rat's ass about Hilda and Bubba dumbfuck in Alabama holding up signs spelling moron wrong. They just think he does.

And those guys will not permit this. They will play this out, there will be tons of theatre, Obama will probably give away the store, and in the end, they will vote the way they are ordered to vote. They will not put this country into default.

But can they really stop it? I mean, we just saw a "fiscal cliff" deal that actually adds to a deficit, which is already incomprehensible & is growing at a rate that can't be slowed anymore. I've read economists who think it's no longer possible to pay it off, or to slow its growth.

And while I agree that corporate America is calling the shots, that gives me very little faith. The corporate America I know has always been much more interested in big profits over the short-term than steady growth & stability over the long term. If they can read the tea leaves like most of the economists I've been reading, all they care about now is maxxing out before everything tanks.
 
I believe it wont happen. Here's why; the real power in our political system is with corporations. For instance, a guy like Paul Ryan, he does as he's told to do by corporate interests. He doesn't give a rat's ass about Hilda and Bubba dumbfuck in Alabama holding up signs spelling moron wrong. They just think he does.

And those guys will not permit this. They will play this out, there will be tons of theatre, Obama will probably give away the store, and in the end, they will vote the way they are ordered to vote. They will not put this country into default.

I hope smarter heads prevail and not the dumbasses willing to let it happen to get us on the right course
 
I like how you claim we don't have international dominance while at the same time making a thread about how if america tanks the whole world goes under.

Well firstly it is not my claim as it comes from the article, however I agree with it, and secondly the world is interconnected now. If you actually read the article, which I doubt very much, you would also learn that the US is on a downwards spiral which even energy independence may not be enough to solve.
 
But can they really stop it? I mean, we just saw a "fiscal cliff" deal that actually adds to a deficit, which is already incomprehensible & is growing at a rate that can't be slowed anymore. I've read economists who think it's no longer possible to pay it off, or to slow its growth.

And while I agree that corporate America is calling the shots, that gives me very little faith. The corporate America I know has always been much more interested in big profits over the short-term than steady growth & stability over the long term. If they can read the tea leaves like most of the economists I've been reading, all they care about now is maxxing out before everything tanks.


If this is indeed the case, then there is really not much that can be done. Just get ready because it is going to be a very bumpy ride. I better start canning my marijuana, ;)
 
There is no fiscal cliff, it's a liberal invention to raise taxes on 77% of Americans.

Next months crisis, the debt ceiling, march will be another fiscal cliff ceiling.

Targets will be your 401k and your IRA.

Cash them out now, you might lose 50% but that's better than losing 100%
 
But can they really stop it? I mean, we just saw a "fiscal cliff" deal that actually adds to a deficit, which is already incomprehensible & is growing at a rate that can't be slowed anymore. I've read economists who think it's no longer possible to pay it off, or to slow its growth.

And while I agree that corporate America is calling the shots, that gives me very little faith. The corporate America I know has always been much more interested in big profits over the short-term than steady growth & stability over the long term. If they can read the tea leaves like most of the economists I've been reading, all they care about now is maxxing out before everything tanks.


The fiscal cliff was the deficit reduction plan. What the fuck did you think it was? Any deal would have added to the deficit as compared to the fiscal cliff. Also, too, the fiscal cliff was a manufactured crisis. There was no need for it to exist in the first instance. Acting like it was something other than that is stupid.

Also, the deficit is not growing and has not been growing for a few years now. It is shrinking and will continue to shrink under the fiscal cliff deal.

If we went through with the fiscal cliff nonsense the economy would have severely contracted and put us into another recession.


Postscript: what economists are you reading?
 
But can they really stop it? I mean, we just saw a "fiscal cliff" deal that actually adds to a deficit, which is already incomprehensible & is growing at a rate that can't be slowed anymore. I've read economists who think it's no longer possible to pay it off, or to slow its growth.

And while I agree that corporate America is calling the shots, that gives me very little faith. The corporate America I know has always been much more interested in big profits over the short-term than steady growth & stability over the long term. If they can read the tea leaves like most of the economists I've been reading, all they care about now is maxxing out before everything tanks.

Some time and hopefully soon, somebody has to actually start reducing the debt mountain. Printing money never works long term, look at Weimar Germany, Argentina and Zimbabwe for the evidence.
 
If this is indeed the case, then there is really not much that can be done. Just get ready because it is going to be a very bumpy ride. I better start canning my marijuana, ;)

Sorry; I shouldn't post when I feel this pessimistic. There are days when I don't feel like all is lost.

But today, I am worried as hell. Seeing those clowns who we elected in action is incredibly sobering, and doesn't instill a lot of hope.
 
Sorry; I shouldn't post when I feel this pessimistic. There are days when I don't feel like all is lost.

But today, I am worried as hell. Seeing those clowns who we elected in action is incredibly sobering, and doesn't instill a lot of hope.

I understand, I haven't read or watched the whole fiasco because of my malaise.
 
The fiscal cliff was the deficit reduction plan. What the fuck did you think it was? Any deal would have added to the deficit as compared to the fiscal cliff. Also, too, the fiscal cliff was a manufactured crisis. There was no need for it to exist in the first instance. Acting like it was something other than that is stupid.

Also, the deficit is not growing and has not been growing for a few years now. It is shrinking and will continue to shrink under the fiscal cliff deal.

If we went through with the fiscal cliff nonsense the economy would have severely contracted and put us into another recession.


Postscript: what economists are you reading?

What I find immensely worrying is that the US looks at the EU and thinks they are somehow superior, when in many ways they are even worse than the lickspittle cowardly Euro politicians. Here is a nightmare scenario, the Euro goes down the pan just about the same time as the US economy is downgraded by the rating agencies late this year or 2014.
 
I actually just read that the bond market bubble is about to burst, but who knows? They were saying to buy gold.

It probably won't matter. We could be headed for a big "re-set" sort of scenario, where our basic monetary system changes completely.

Gold would be a better play than bonds at this point. Interest rates don't have much room to fall, thus minimizing the return potential in a flat interest rate environment and opening the door for a hammer to the nuts if rates start to rise.

I am not optimistic about the idiots in the two parties doing what needs to be done for a long term solution. But Tom's article is wrong, the fundamentals of our economy are not bad. The private side is quite strong if the idiots in DC would stop F'ing up the system, we could return to growth after a needed correction.
 
Sorry; I shouldn't post when I feel this pessimistic. There are days when I don't feel like all is lost.

But today, I am worried as hell. Seeing those clowns who we elected in action is incredibly sobering, and doesn't instill a lot of hope.

Now you know why I have a compound in the mountains stocked with food, fuel and warmth to last a couple years off the grid. It is very comforting to know that the shot does hit te fan, we will be in good shape
 
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