Auster

Originally Posted by pisskop

My opinion? My off the record opinion that embodies my dislike of homosexuality? A summary:

I think its a waste; a sign of blatent waste and excess. Its like the guy who owns a car for every day of the week, except a homosexual doesn't nesscessarily have the money, prestige, power, or influence to lord over you (but even this is a flawed analogy).
Instead he increasingly has political agenda that involves tactics first successfully used by various fascists (and later the communists); developed in the Western World by fascists and deployed in the hiccup of universial suffrage.



My official debate is best summed up like this

My debate, the one proven in this thread:

 

The essence is that we are free to choose our behavior. In order to empirically study homosexuality we have to define it as a behavior, which is already the definition of it. Who you feel attracted to is a moot point, and any other chemicals in your body (i.e. emotions) are not important because no matter how we feel we have complete control over our actions, whether or not we exercise it.

I think the issue needs to be pushed. We need to clarify that homosexuality is a choice. From there, with it established that you can choose, we can then sort the issue out.

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Homosexuality is a choice.

Why is it a choice?

Well, by defining the concept of homosexuality we are setting a definition. One that, if it is to carry any real, scientific weight, has to be based on the empirical (what we can observe). That's behavior. We can't use 'I felt attracted to him,' or,'I felt like a man in a woman's body'; these aren't objective or measurable to a reliable extent.

Can you tell me, to a reliable, concise, and accurate degree, how much you love your significant other? How physically turned on they make you? You can't not in a way I can use to judge every other member of that gender. But you can describe behaviors, can't you? Because behaviors are visible and measurable.

So, we can define homosexuality wherever on the spectrum of behaviors (kissing, hand holding, fondling, sodomy, w.e. you choose). Now, once you engage in the agreed behavior (and for the sake of this exercise let's put it at fondling or better) you are engaging in homosexual behavior and thus scientifically definable as a homosexual at that moment.

Now, did anyone force you to engage in such behavior? No? Well what if they had a gun to your head and said they would kill you if you didn't? Then are you forced?

This is where Aristotle's idea of indeterminism and free will come into play. Don't worry; we've been using the foundations of his works in the formation of our ideals almost since they were first put forth.

Indeterminism and Aristotle

The gist of it is that, even with a gun you are not forced to do anything. You choose to.

You chose to make the decisions you make today, and they shape tomorrow, in which you are free to choose again your own decisions. Who you are is a direct result of who you were and what choices you made.

"But gay is who I am!"

No. Being a gay is not who you are. It's your self identity. You identify with homosexuality, and thus you attempt to meet that schema (mental image) in aspects of your daily life. You choose to believe you are gay, you choose to engage in gay behavior; you chose to be gay by definition.

Okay, so far so good.
But, what about genetics? The gay genes made me this way!

Aside from skirting responsibility again, this is not true. For all the research done, there is no identified gay gene. I doubt there will be. However, it has been shown that there are genetic predispositions towards homosexuality. Anyone familiar with cancer or diabetes knows what that means, and I use these examples because they are the most prominent in our society. You have an increased likelihood of being at risk for homosexual tendencies.

Like any biological factor, the environment plays a fairly large role in it too. If you take a child from a family known to be tall and malnourish it chances are it will not grow to their full (height) potential. If you take a child with a predisposition towards homosexuality and fill him with a high level of sexual anxiety (caused by either extreme sexual repression or over-exposure to sex) then you are exasperating his risk, just like sitting in a tanning booth for a few hours a week will increase the risk of skin cancer.

This is stupid. You say I'm gay because of my actions and not how I feel? My feelings are chemical reactions and thus scientific! I feel attracted to men, so I'm gay, I can't help it! Anyone can choose to go out and get sodomized! Do you choose not to be gay? When did you realize you felt attracted to men?"

The first of a long line of emotional appeals laid bare; and attacking me personally to boot! Like any good scientist would do, we define homosexuality not off subjective emotions or feelings of attraction (which are indeed chemicals, triggered by environmental conditioning. In other words, your body releases chemicals because of signals from your mind, which was conditioned by your experience) but off of empirical and measurable behavior.

We explain how free will works, and how freedom of expression works. You were not forced to be gay. You are not guaranteed to be gay by genetics, the same way that genetics cannot force you to be creative or force you to be aggressive. Personality traits are conditioned after (and before) birth, although there are dispositions for them in the genes.

We explain that they are simply appealing to emotion. Society is capable of being swayed by emotion, and the media tends to support this with filtered reports only conveying one side of a story. But reality is objective, not subject to emotional appeal. Science simply attempts to follow.

But you were there for this, trololoing away as usual. I personally find you less bearable not because you are gay, but because you insist on trolling around instead of stating opinions in a rational manner. Never mind fact, just opinion I'd be happy with; if it was within constraint. You act like a 13 year old and then get pissed others treat you like one. Or even better when others act in the exact same manner as you. ILA mostly seems to respond to you in the same way as you him, just he's a bit nastier and raw.


Throughout life one must occasionally deal with those he doesnt nesscessarily agree with, and I believe it is your right to define yourself gay. but isnt it time you stopped trying to make people accept and even exhault your fagdom? Its our right not to.