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kudzu
04-30-2018, 01:41 PM
Genesis of Genesis: Where Did the Biblical Story of Creation Come From?

The Bible actually has more than one creation myth, and the one you're thinking of seems to have arisen not from ancient Israelite lore but from the central Asian steppes.

The Hebrew Bible opens with an account of creation, starting with what is arguably the most memorable line in the entire tome: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

But this iconic account of God creating the world is not the only account of creation in the Bible. If anything, it seems to be the most recent in a succession of creation myths held sacred by the ancient Hebrews over the eons.



Baal and the sea monsters

The oldest creation myth in the Bible isn't in the Book of Genesis at all. It is alluded to in the Book of Isaiah, in the Book of Job and in Psalms.


The clearest and fullest biblical account of this ancient myth appears in Psalm 74: “For God... Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers. The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter” (74:12-17).



An archaeological discovery made in the 20th century shed light on this strange account of creation, revealing it for what it is: an abridged version of the Canaanite creation myth.


Among the ruins of the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit, tablets were found in a language very similar to Hebrew, recording the many myths believed by the city’s inhabitants - including that creation began with the storm god Baal vanquishing the god of the sea Yam and his sea monster-serpent-dragon helpers.



There are striking parallels between the Ugarit text and certain biblical verses. In the Book of Isaiah, for instance, the prophet says: “In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea” (Isaiah 27:1). That is nearly verbatim to what an anonymous Canaanite bard has to say about Baal: “When you killed Litan, the fleeing serpent, annihilated the twisty serpent, the potentate with seven heads."



Generations of heaven and earth

Another completely different account of creation found in the Bible in Genesis 2, starting with the line: “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens” (Genesis 2:4).

According to this account, God created man from clay, placed him in the Garden of Eden, and only then created animals, plants and a spouse for his benefit.

The writer of this simple prose has quite an anthropomorphic conception of God, most clearly seen when the author has him taking an afternoon stroll in the Garden of Eden, where he bumps into Adam and converses with him: “And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself” (Genesis 3:8-10).

The Garden of Eden
The Garden of Eden with the Fall of Man by Jan Brueghel the Elder and Pieter Paul Rubens.Credit: Wikimedia Commons

This creation myth evidently has a different source than the Canaanite version. Some elements of the story are familiar from ancient Mesopotamia myths, but they play out in a different way. For example, in the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh, man is cheated of immortality by a snake who eats a plant. If Gilgamesh had eaten it, would have made him immortal.



Our biblical account famously has the serpent beguile Eve into eating the fruit of a tree; she persuades Adam to do likewise. They gain knowledge but get expelled from the Garden of Eden.


— Advertisement —


Another Babylonian myth has the hero Adapa being tricked by the god of wisdom Ea into refusing food offered to him by other gods, which he does. This food, the narrator tells us, would have made him immortal.

No feet, no monsters

This leads us to the creation myth that opens the Bible. It is completely different from the two discussed above. Unlike in them, God is not called by his personal name, the tetragrammaton YAHWEH, but is instead called Elohim – simply, “god.” He isn’t anthropomorphized and he doesn’t fight monsters.

If anything, the author seems to go out of his way to negate the older creation myths. For example, if the ancient Canaanite myth pits God against sea monsters before creating the world, the author of Genesis 1 has God creating them: “And God created great whales” (1:21).

However, those “great whales” are a mistranslation of the Hebrew word "taninim", which today means "crocodile" but back in ancient times, meant "serpentine sea monster".

In other words, Genesis 1 describes God creating the very sea-serpents that he vanquished in the ancient Canaanite myth (and that also appeared in Isaiah, Job and Psalms).

Destruction of Leviathan
'Destruction of Leviathan', by Gustav Dore, 1865Credit: Wikimedia Commons

Another connection between Genesis 1 and the older Canaanite myth is the separation of the sea into the sky and the ocean.

In the Canaanite myth, God cuts the sea god Yam in two and creates the oceans and the sky. In Genesis 1: “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters” (1:6). It is the same basic idea but depersonified.


— Advertisement —


The author of Genesis 1, probably a Hebrew scribe living in Babylon during the Babylonian Exile in the 4th century BCE, was apparently creating a new version of the old creation myth that could conform with the strict monotheism which was taking hold of Judaism at the time.

The primordial sea god

It wasn’t only the Canaanites who believed in the myth that creation began with a god vanquishing a primordial sea deity and forming the seas and the sky from its remains. The Babylonians believed in this story too, only in their case, the hero creator god was Marduk, not Baal, and the sea was not male like the Canaanite Yam, but a female goddess called Tiamat. (She may be alluded to in Genesis 1:2, where the Hebrew for what is translated as “the deep” is tehom - a Hebrew cognate of Tiamat’s name.)

This basic creation myth of a god slaying serpent-like sea monsters is not restricted to the Canaanites and the Babylonians. The Middle Eastern peoples apparently adopted it from Indo-European peoples from the north, since it crops up in the ancient myths of many of the Indo-European peoples: In Greek mythology, Zeus kills Typhon; in Norse mythology Thor kills Jörmungandr; in Hindu mythology, Indra kills Vrtra; in Slavic mythology, Perun kills Veles; and in Hittite mythology; Tarhunt kills Illuyanka.

In each of these cases - and there are more - it is a weather deity that kills a monster serpent, and thus brings order to the world.

The similarities between Indo-European languages led linguists to hypothesize the existence of an ancient language, Proto-Indo-European, which was spoken in the central Asian steppes thousands of years ago and from which all Indo-European languages are descended. Similarly, scholars of comparative religion hypothesize that these are manifestations of an original Proto-Indo-European religious myth involving a weather god killing a monster snake and bringing order to the world.



Apparently, one or more of these ancient Indo-European people, perhaps the Hittites, brought the myth to the Middle East. Here it was adopted by the Canaanites - and made its way to the Bible, only to be profoundly misunderstood by latter-day translators.


https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-where-did-creation-story-come-from-1.5404560

Frank Apisa
04-30-2018, 01:49 PM
I, for one, do not know, Kudzu.

I cannot even make a decent guess...because at each point going back...there seems still to be a back story.

I wonder how many others here do not know...and cannot make a decent guess.

Or perhaps I ought to word that: I wonder how many others here do not know...and are willing to acknowledge that they cannot make a decent guess.

kudzu
04-30-2018, 02:05 PM
I, for one, do not know, Kudzu.

I cannot even make a decent guess...because at each point going back...there seems still to be a back story.

I wonder how many others here do not know...and cannot make a decent guess.

Or perhaps I ought to word that: I wonder how many others here do not know...and are willing to acknowledge that they cannot make a decent guess.


We don't know much, do we?

Ras Shamra is were the Ugarit texts were found.. Those people were also called North Coast Canaanites.

Leonthecat
04-30-2018, 02:10 PM
Genesis of Genesis: Where Did the Biblical Story of Creation Come From?

The Bible actually has more than one creation myth, and the one you're thinking of seems to have arisen not from ancient Israelite lore but from the central Asian steppes.

The Hebrew Bible opens with an account of creation, starting with what is arguably the most memorable line in the entire tome: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

But this iconic account of God creating the world is not the only account of creation in the Bible. If anything, it seems to be the most recent in a succession of creation myths held sacred by the ancient Hebrews over the eons.



Baal and the sea monsters

The oldest creation myth in the Bible isn't in the Book of Genesis at all. It is alluded to in the Book of Isaiah, in the Book of Job and in Psalms.


The clearest and fullest biblical account of this ancient myth appears in Psalm 74: “For God... Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers. The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter” (74:12-17).



An archaeological discovery made in the 20th century shed light on this strange account of creation, revealing it for what it is: an abridged version of the Canaanite creation myth.


Among the ruins of the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit, tablets were found in a language very similar to Hebrew, recording the many myths believed by the city’s inhabitants - including that creation began with the storm god Baal vanquishing the god of the sea Yam and his sea monster-serpent-dragon helpers.



There are striking parallels between the Ugarit text and certain biblical verses. In the Book of Isaiah, for instance, the prophet says: “In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea” (Isaiah 27:1). That is nearly verbatim to what an anonymous Canaanite bard has to say about Baal: “When you killed Litan, the fleeing serpent, annihilated the twisty serpent, the potentate with seven heads."



Generations of heaven and earth

Another completely different account of creation found in the Bible in Genesis 2, starting with the line: “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens” (Genesis 2:4).

According to this account, God created man from clay, placed him in the Garden of Eden, and only then created animals, plants and a spouse for his benefit.

The writer of this simple prose has quite an anthropomorphic conception of God, most clearly seen when the author has him taking an afternoon stroll in the Garden of Eden, where he bumps into Adam and converses with him: “And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself” (Genesis 3:8-10).

The Garden of Eden
The Garden of Eden with the Fall of Man by Jan Brueghel the Elder and Pieter Paul Rubens.Credit: Wikimedia Commons

This creation myth evidently has a different source than the Canaanite version. Some elements of the story are familiar from ancient Mesopotamia myths, but they play out in a different way. For example, in the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh, man is cheated of immortality by a snake who eats a plant. If Gilgamesh had eaten it, would have made him immortal.



Our biblical account famously has the serpent beguile Eve into eating the fruit of a tree; she persuades Adam to do likewise. They gain knowledge but get expelled from the Garden of Eden.


— Advertisement —


Another Babylonian myth has the hero Adapa being tricked by the god of wisdom Ea into refusing food offered to him by other gods, which he does. This food, the narrator tells us, would have made him immortal.

No feet, no monsters

This leads us to the creation myth that opens the Bible. It is completely different from the two discussed above. Unlike in them, God is not called by his personal name, the tetragrammaton YAHWEH, but is instead called Elohim – simply, “god.” He isn’t anthropomorphized and he doesn’t fight monsters.

If anything, the author seems to go out of his way to negate the older creation myths. For example, if the ancient Canaanite myth pits God against sea monsters before creating the world, the author of Genesis 1 has God creating them: “And God created great whales” (1:21).

However, those “great whales” are a mistranslation of the Hebrew word "taninim", which today means "crocodile" but back in ancient times, meant "serpentine sea monster".

In other words, Genesis 1 describes God creating the very sea-serpents that he vanquished in the ancient Canaanite myth (and that also appeared in Isaiah, Job and Psalms).

Destruction of Leviathan
'Destruction of Leviathan', by Gustav Dore, 1865Credit: Wikimedia Commons

Another connection between Genesis 1 and the older Canaanite myth is the separation of the sea into the sky and the ocean.

In the Canaanite myth, God cuts the sea god Yam in two and creates the oceans and the sky. In Genesis 1: “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters” (1:6). It is the same basic idea but depersonified.


— Advertisement —


The author of Genesis 1, probably a Hebrew scribe living in Babylon during the Babylonian Exile in the 4th century BCE, was apparently creating a new version of the old creation myth that could conform with the strict monotheism which was taking hold of Judaism at the time.

The primordial sea god

It wasn’t only the Canaanites who believed in the myth that creation began with a god vanquishing a primordial sea deity and forming the seas and the sky from its remains. The Babylonians believed in this story too, only in their case, the hero creator god was Marduk, not Baal, and the sea was not male like the Canaanite Yam, but a female goddess called Tiamat. (She may be alluded to in Genesis 1:2, where the Hebrew for what is translated as “the deep” is tehom - a Hebrew cognate of Tiamat’s name.)

This basic creation myth of a god slaying serpent-like sea monsters is not restricted to the Canaanites and the Babylonians. The Middle Eastern peoples apparently adopted it from Indo-European peoples from the north, since it crops up in the ancient myths of many of the Indo-European peoples: In Greek mythology, Zeus kills Typhon; in Norse mythology Thor kills Jörmungandr; in Hindu mythology, Indra kills Vrtra; in Slavic mythology, Perun kills Veles; and in Hittite mythology; Tarhunt kills Illuyanka.

In each of these cases - and there are more - it is a weather deity that kills a monster serpent, and thus brings order to the world.

The similarities between Indo-European languages led linguists to hypothesize the existence of an ancient language, Proto-Indo-European, which was spoken in the central Asian steppes thousands of years ago and from which all Indo-European languages are descended. Similarly, scholars of comparative religion hypothesize that these are manifestations of an original Proto-Indo-European religious myth involving a weather god killing a monster snake and bringing order to the world.



Apparently, one or more of these ancient Indo-European people, perhaps the Hittites, brought the myth to the Middle East. Here it was adopted by the Canaanites - and made its way to the Bible, only to be profoundly misunderstood by latter-day translators.


https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-where-did-creation-story-come-from-1.5404560

Myth, filling the void left by ignorance.

kudzu
04-30-2018, 02:11 PM
Myth, filling the void left by ignorance.

Well, throughout history people have been willing to kill each other over the differences in their myths.

Leonthecat
04-30-2018, 02:18 PM
Well, throughout history people have been willing to kill each other over the differences in their myths.

It is all part of the insanity that is religion.

kudzu
04-30-2018, 03:00 PM
It is all part of the insanity that is religion.


Yep.. but civilized people should have worked thru that by now.

Fentoine Lum
04-30-2018, 03:04 PM
Yep.. but civilized people should have worked thru that by now.

Too much profit in endless war for the substantial people.

Leonthecat
04-30-2018, 03:52 PM
Yep.. but civilized people should have worked thru that by now.

One would hope that they could but it seems that they never will.
When it comes to a promise of everlasting life, otherwise intelligent people are willing to suspend their rational thought process' to become ignorant primitives who think like first century savages.
It is a major flaw in the human psyche.
Had it not been for the traction that religion gained on our development as a civilized species, Columbus may have been going to the moon instead of getting lost on his way to Asia.

PostmodernProphet
04-30-2018, 05:11 PM
Genesis of Genesis: Where Did the Biblical Story of Creation Come From?

The Bible actually has more than one creation myth, and the one you're thinking of seems to have arisen not from ancient Israelite lore but from the central Asian steppes.

The Hebrew Bible opens with an account of creation, starting with what is arguably the most memorable line in the entire tome: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

But this iconic account of God creating the world is not the only account of creation in the Bible. If anything, it seems to be the most recent in a succession of creation myths held sacred by the ancient Hebrews over the eons.



Baal and the sea monsters

The oldest creation myth in the Bible isn't in the Book of Genesis at all. It is alluded to in the Book of Isaiah, in the Book of Job and in Psalms.


The clearest and fullest biblical account of this ancient myth appears in Psalm 74: “For God... Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers. The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter” (74:12-17).



An archaeological discovery made in the 20th century shed light on this strange account of creation, revealing it for what it is: an abridged version of the Canaanite creation myth.


Among the ruins of the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit, tablets were found in a language very similar to Hebrew, recording the many myths believed by the city’s inhabitants - including that creation began with the storm god Baal vanquishing the god of the sea Yam and his sea monster-serpent-dragon helpers.



There are striking parallels between the Ugarit text and certain biblical verses. In the Book of Isaiah, for instance, the prophet says: “In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea” (Isaiah 27:1). That is nearly verbatim to what an anonymous Canaanite bard has to say about Baal: “When you killed Litan, the fleeing serpent, annihilated the twisty serpent, the potentate with seven heads."



Generations of heaven and earth

Another completely different account of creation found in the Bible in Genesis 2, starting with the line: “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens” (Genesis 2:4).

According to this account, God created man from clay, placed him in the Garden of Eden, and only then created animals, plants and a spouse for his benefit.

The writer of this simple prose has quite an anthropomorphic conception of God, most clearly seen when the author has him taking an afternoon stroll in the Garden of Eden, where he bumps into Adam and converses with him: “And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself” (Genesis 3:8-10).

The Garden of Eden
The Garden of Eden with the Fall of Man by Jan Brueghel the Elder and Pieter Paul Rubens.Credit: Wikimedia Commons

This creation myth evidently has a different source than the Canaanite version. Some elements of the story are familiar from ancient Mesopotamia myths, but they play out in a different way. For example, in the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh, man is cheated of immortality by a snake who eats a plant. If Gilgamesh had eaten it, would have made him immortal.



Our biblical account famously has the serpent beguile Eve into eating the fruit of a tree; she persuades Adam to do likewise. They gain knowledge but get expelled from the Garden of Eden.


— Advertisement —


Another Babylonian myth has the hero Adapa being tricked by the god of wisdom Ea into refusing food offered to him by other gods, which he does. This food, the narrator tells us, would have made him immortal.

No feet, no monsters

This leads us to the creation myth that opens the Bible. It is completely different from the two discussed above. Unlike in them, God is not called by his personal name, the tetragrammaton YAHWEH, but is instead called Elohim – simply, “god.” He isn’t anthropomorphized and he doesn’t fight monsters.

If anything, the author seems to go out of his way to negate the older creation myths. For example, if the ancient Canaanite myth pits God against sea monsters before creating the world, the author of Genesis 1 has God creating them: “And God created great whales” (1:21).

However, those “great whales” are a mistranslation of the Hebrew word "taninim", which today means "crocodile" but back in ancient times, meant "serpentine sea monster".

In other words, Genesis 1 describes God creating the very sea-serpents that he vanquished in the ancient Canaanite myth (and that also appeared in Isaiah, Job and Psalms).

Destruction of Leviathan
'Destruction of Leviathan', by Gustav Dore, 1865Credit: Wikimedia Commons

Another connection between Genesis 1 and the older Canaanite myth is the separation of the sea into the sky and the ocean.

In the Canaanite myth, God cuts the sea god Yam in two and creates the oceans and the sky. In Genesis 1: “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters” (1:6). It is the same basic idea but depersonified.


— Advertisement —


The author of Genesis 1, probably a Hebrew scribe living in Babylon during the Babylonian Exile in the 4th century BCE, was apparently creating a new version of the old creation myth that could conform with the strict monotheism which was taking hold of Judaism at the time.

The primordial sea god

It wasn’t only the Canaanites who believed in the myth that creation began with a god vanquishing a primordial sea deity and forming the seas and the sky from its remains. The Babylonians believed in this story too, only in their case, the hero creator god was Marduk, not Baal, and the sea was not male like the Canaanite Yam, but a female goddess called Tiamat. (She may be alluded to in Genesis 1:2, where the Hebrew for what is translated as “the deep” is tehom - a Hebrew cognate of Tiamat’s name.)

This basic creation myth of a god slaying serpent-like sea monsters is not restricted to the Canaanites and the Babylonians. The Middle Eastern peoples apparently adopted it from Indo-European peoples from the north, since it crops up in the ancient myths of many of the Indo-European peoples: In Greek mythology, Zeus kills Typhon; in Norse mythology Thor kills Jörmungandr; in Hindu mythology, Indra kills Vrtra; in Slavic mythology, Perun kills Veles; and in Hittite mythology; Tarhunt kills Illuyanka.

In each of these cases - and there are more - it is a weather deity that kills a monster serpent, and thus brings order to the world.

The similarities between Indo-European languages led linguists to hypothesize the existence of an ancient language, Proto-Indo-European, which was spoken in the central Asian steppes thousands of years ago and from which all Indo-European languages are descended. Similarly, scholars of comparative religion hypothesize that these are manifestations of an original Proto-Indo-European religious myth involving a weather god killing a monster snake and bringing order to the world.



Apparently, one or more of these ancient Indo-European people, perhaps the Hittites, brought the myth to the Middle East. Here it was adopted by the Canaanites - and made its way to the Bible, only to be profoundly misunderstood by latter-day translators.


https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-where-did-creation-story-come-from-1.5404560
if the Jews were going to copy someone else's creation story don't you think it would have made more sense to pick one that at least had ONE thing in common with Genesis 1?......

kudzu
04-30-2018, 05:35 PM
One would hope that they could but it seems that they never will.
When it comes to a promise of everlasting life, otherwise intelligent people are willing to suspend their rational thought process' to become ignorant primitives who think like first century savages.
It is a major flaw in the human psyche.
Had it not been for the traction that religion gained on our development as a civilized species, Columbus may have been going to the moon instead of getting lost on his way to Asia.

I am always surprised by the hostility towards Catholics, Muslims, Jews etc...... The accusations fly.. "YOU are not a real Christian"..

I think we'd be better off to diffuse some of that sort of rhetoric.

kudzu
04-30-2018, 05:39 PM
if the Jews were going to copy someone else's creation story don't you think it would have made more sense to pick one that at least had ONE thing in common with Genesis 1?......

I am no expert, but the last time I looked into it there were 250 documented creation stories.

I know the Hebrews borrowed ideas from other people in the Middle East.. and I know they created laws and rituals to set them apart from the others..

Tribal identity is most important.. .. and back in the day most nomadic tribes carried their gods from place to place in a box on a litter.

PostmodernProphet
04-30-2018, 05:42 PM
I know the Hebrews borrowed ideas from other people in the Middle East..

if that's the case, why not give an example where they actually did so instead of rambling on about dragons and whales.......show me a legitimate parallel to Genesis 1.....

Leonthecat
04-30-2018, 06:48 PM
I am no expert, but the last time I looked into it there were 250 documented creation stories.

I know the Hebrews borrowed ideas from other people in the Middle East.. and I know they created laws and rituals to set them apart from the others..

Tribal identity is most important.. .. and back in the day most nomadic tribes carried their gods from place to place in a box on a litter.

http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/images/270x224/animals/cats/cat_answer_tool/squeak-watches-litter-cleaning.jpg

kudzu
05-01-2018, 05:43 AM
http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/images/270x224/animals/cats/cat_answer_tool/squeak-watches-litter-cleaning.jpg

Litter (vehicle) - Wikipedia



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litter_(vehicle)






The litter is a class of wheelless vehicles, a type of human-powered transport, for the transport of persons. Examples of litter vehicles include palki or पालकी (India), পালকি (Bangladesh), lectica (ancient Rome), kiệu (Vietnam, 轎), sedan chair (Britain), litera (Spain), palanquin (France, India), jiao (China, 轎), liteira ...

kudzu
05-01-2018, 05:44 AM
if that's the case, why not give an example where they actually did so instead of rambling on about dragons and whales.......show me a legitimate parallel to Genesis 1.....

Why don't you READ the article?

Phantasmal
05-01-2018, 05:58 AM
I am no expert, but the last time I looked into it there were 250 documented creation stories.

I know the Hebrews borrowed ideas from other people in the Middle East.. and I know they created laws and rituals to set them apart from the others..

Tribal identity is most important.. .. and back in the day most nomadic tribes carried their gods from place to place in a box on a litter.
Order brought from chaos is a common thread throughout many creation stories, Genesis 1 included.

Phantasmal
05-01-2018, 06:05 AM
if that's the case, why not give an example where they actually did so instead of rambling on about dragons and whales.......show me a legitimate parallel to Genesis 1.....
Order out of chaos

Darkness and water

It’s been awhile since I’ve read Joseph Campbell’s comparisons of mythology, those are the two that come to mind.

kudzu
05-01-2018, 06:08 AM
Order brought from chaos is a common thread throughout many creation stories, Genesis 1 included.


Yes.. That's why the term Yam Suff becomes so interesting.

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 06:13 AM
Why don't you READ the article?

I did....quite frankly its a pile of crap.....can you pull even a single sentence out of it that shows similarity to Genesis 1?......

kudzu
05-01-2018, 06:14 AM
Idid....quite frankly its a pile of crap.....can you pull even a single sentence out of it that shows similarity to Genesis 1?......

Have you ever heard of Ras Shamra?

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 06:18 AM
Order out of chaos

Darkness and water

It’s been awhile since I’ve read Joseph Campbell’s comparisons of mythology, those are the two that come to mind.

so the similarity of the Canaan creation story and the Genesis creation story is that it begins before creation?......from the OP....

In the Canaanite myth, God cuts the sea god Yam in two and creates the oceans and the sky. In Genesis 1: “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters” (1:6).


same = same, right?.....kinda drifts away from commonality after the point if "in the beginning".......

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 06:19 AM
Have you ever heard of Ras Shamra?

nope.......did he do something in Genesis 4?......

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 06:24 AM
apparently when kudzu said "copied" me meant "going out of its way to be different"......

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 06:24 AM
Yes.. That's why the term Yam Suff becomes so interesting.

google wants to know if I meant stuffed yams......

kudzu
05-01-2018, 06:25 AM
nope.......did he do something in Genesis 4?......


The Ugarit tablets were found there .. They are a thousand years older than the Hebrews.. That's where the Hebrews got Psalms for the Old Testament.

Ugarit (Ras Shamra) - Livius



www.livius.org › Articles › Place



Jun 23, 2017 - Ugarit (Hebrew אוּגָרִית): Bronze Age port in northern Syria, destroyed in the early twelfth century BCE, modern Ras Shamra. Cuneiform tablets illustrate the religion of ancient Canaan, i.e., the gods against which the first Jewish prophets polemicized.

kudzu
05-01-2018, 06:28 AM
[PDF]the ras shamra discovery - Apologetics Press



https://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/Ras-Shamra.pdf




by W Jackson - ‎Cited by 1 - ‎Related articles
Cyrus Gordon wrote: “That Ugaritic is the greatest literary discovery from antiquity since the decipher- ment of the Egyptian hieroglyphs and Mesopotamian cuneiform is generally recognized (1953, p. 87). Ras Shamra (“Fennel Head”) is a sixty-five foot mound located near Minet el-Beida (White Harbor) in northern Syria.

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 06:32 AM
. That's where the Hebrews got Psalms for the Old Testament.


take it up with David.....

I believe out of 140+ Psalms you found a similarity in one verse in one Psalm.......what was it again?....."Praise be to the Lord God"?......

meanwhile I believe we are waiting for you to come up with a parallel between Genesis 1 and.......something?.....

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 06:36 AM
[PDF]the ras shamra discovery - Apologetics Press



https://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/Ras-Shamra.pdf




by W Jackson - ‎Cited by 1 - ‎Related articles
Cyrus Gordon wrote: “That Ugaritic is the greatest literary discovery from antiquity since the decipher- ment of the Egyptian hieroglyphs and Mesopotamian cuneiform is generally recognized (1953, p. 87). Ras Shamra (“Fennel Head”) is a sixty-five foot mound located near Minet el-Beida (White Harbor) in northern Syria.

thanks for the source.....

Though there were some vague similarities between the Israelitish and Canaanitish religions, the differences were far greater.

kudzu
05-01-2018, 06:38 AM
take it up with David.....meanwhile I believe we are waiting for you to come up with a parallel between Genesis 1 and.......something?.....

Why don't you look up Yam Suf.. It means crossing water (chaos) out of ignorance (darkness) to knowledge of God.

If you studied, you would have been aware of the Mythos that preceded the Hebrew creation story.

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 06:42 AM
Why don't you look up Yam Suf.. It means crossing water (chaos) out of ignorance (darkness) to knowledge of God.

If you studied, you would have been aware of the Mythos that preceded the Hebrew creation story.

not my job to document your claims......so far you haven't done very well.....I don't expect you to do any better........

kudzu
05-01-2018, 06:45 AM
not my job to document your claims......so far you haven't done very well.....I don't expect you to do any better........

Yam is a sea god of the Canaanites.. There is a thread about it.

Yam Suf is the body of water the Israelites crossed to leave Egypt for Egyptian controled Sinai and Cannan.

kudzu
05-01-2018, 06:48 AM
Yam (god) - New World Encyclopedia



www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Yam_(god)






Jul 31, 2013 - Yam or Yamm, from the ancient Semitic word meaning "sea," is the name of the Canaanite god of rivers and the sea. Yam was also the deity of the primordial chaos. He represented the power of the tempestuous sea untamed and raging. Also called Nahar ("river") he additionally ruled floods and related ...

Leonthecat
05-01-2018, 07:22 AM
Litter (vehicle) - Wikipedia



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litter_(vehicle)






The litter is a class of wheelless vehicles, a type of human-powered transport, for the transport of persons. Examples of litter vehicles include palki or पालकी (India), পালকি (Bangladesh), lectica (ancient Rome), kiệu (Vietnam, 轎), sedan chair (Britain), litera (Spain), palanquin (France, India), jiao (China, 轎), liteira ...

lit·ter box
noun
a box or tray containing granular absorbent material into which a cat can urinate or defecate.

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 08:11 AM
Yam is a sea god of the Canaanites.. There is a thread about it.

Yam Suf is the body of water the Israelites crossed to leave Egypt for Egyptian controled Sinai and Cannan.

not seeing the relevance to the biblical story of creation.....

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 08:12 AM
Yam (god) - New World Encyclopedia



www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Yam_(god)






Jul 31, 2013 - Yam or Yamm, from the ancient Semitic word meaning "sea," is the name of the Canaanite god of rivers and the sea. Yam was also the deity of the primordial chaos. He represented the power of the tempestuous sea untamed and raging. Also called Nahar ("river") he additionally ruled floods and related ...

having difficulty giving a fuck.......there is no "god of the sea" in Genesis 1 or any other part of Genesis.....

kudzu
05-01-2018, 08:15 AM
having difficulty giving a fuck.......there is no "god of the sea" in Genesis 1 or any other part of Genesis.....

The Israelites crossed Yam Suf in Exodus .. You do know the Bible wasn't written in English, don't you?

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 08:33 AM
The Israelites crossed Yam Suf in Exodus .. You do know the Bible wasn't written in English, don't you?

so because the Israelites crossed the Red Sea in Exodus, the Israelites copied Canaanite creation stories in Genesis by NOT referring to a god of the sea?.....

kudzu
05-01-2018, 10:39 AM
so because the Israelites crossed the Red Sea in Exodus, the Israelites copied Canaanite creation stories in Genesis by NOT referring to a god of the sea?.....

The Exodus is a myth.. but the symbolism is clear. They crossed out of chaos of ignorance into knowlege of God.

The Red Sea is Quite deep and steep.. impossible to cross on foot . You'd have to be a mountain goat.

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 11:45 AM
The Exodus is a myth.. but the symbolism is clear. They crossed out of chaos of ignorance into knowlege of God.

The Red Sea is Quite deep and steep.. impossible to cross on foot . You'd have to be a mountain goat.

your arguments are a myth.....

kudzu
05-01-2018, 11:59 AM
your arguments are a myth.....

At the time of the Exodus both Canaan and Sinai were controlled by Egypt.. There were Egyptians garrisons deployed in Sinai and they paid tribute to Pharoah.

Sinai is only 135 miles across at its widest point. People walked back and forth all the time.. Any time there was drought or famine, they headed for the Nile Delta.

2 million Israelites and their herds could not have survived in Sinai for 40 years. Even now it can only support a population of about 800,000.

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 03:27 PM
At the time of the Exodus both Canaan and Sinai were controlled by Egypt.. There were Egyptians garrisons deployed in Sinai and they paid tribute to Pharoah.

Sinai is only 135 miles across at its widest point. People walked back and forth all the time.. Any time there was drought or famine, they headed for the Nile Delta.

2 million Israelites and their herds could not have survived in Sinai for 40 years. Even now it can only support a population of about 800,000.

your denials of God are not proof.....sorry......

kudzu
05-01-2018, 03:42 PM
your denials of God are not proof.....sorry......


I am not denying God.. I am explaining to you that the Bible is didactic literature.. Its NOT history.. One thing the Bible often gets completely wrong is location.. and its full of anachronisms.

The stories have a deeper meaning unless you are a child.

PostmodernProphet
05-01-2018, 04:14 PM
I am not denying God.. I am explaining to you that the Bible is didactic literature.. Its NOT history.. One thing the Bible often gets completely wrong is location.. and its full of anachronisms.
.

/shrugs.....if either the Bible is wrong or you are wrong.....guess.....



The stories have a deeper meaning unless you are a child
sorry......you can't just make up your own meanings and expect any one except Owl to believe you........

kudzu
05-03-2018, 12:08 PM
/shrugs.....if either the Bible is wrong or you are wrong.....guess.....


sorry......you can't just make up your own meanings and expect any one except Owl to believe you........

The Bible isn't wrong.. Its a teaching narrative.. Allegories and metaphors and ancient myths..

PostmodernProphet
05-03-2018, 03:09 PM
The Bible isn't wrong.. Its a teaching narrative.. Allegories and metaphors and ancient myths..

I agree......then that leaves only you....

kudzu
05-03-2018, 03:16 PM
I agree......then that leaves only you....

If you think the Bible is history, you're wrong.

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?94963-How-the-Jews-Invented-God-and-Made-Him-Great

PostmodernProphet
05-03-2018, 03:18 PM
If you think the Bible is history, you're wrong.


I am not saying it is a history text, but what it states, happened.....

kudzu
05-03-2018, 05:20 PM
I am not saying it is a history text, but what it states, happened.....

No it didn't.. For instance there were no Hittites around for Abraham to buy the Cave of the Patriarchs from.

domer76
05-03-2018, 05:59 PM
I did....quite frankly its a pile of crap.....

Oh, the irony!

domer76
05-03-2018, 06:05 PM
I am not saying it is a history text, but what it states, happened.....

So many animals and just one boat!

Hey, how did those koalas and kangaroos get all the way from Turkey to Australia?

PostmodernProphet
05-03-2018, 06:32 PM
No it didn't.. For instance there were no Hittites around for Abraham to buy the Cave of the Patriarchs from.

if the Bible says he did, they were......

kudzu
05-03-2018, 06:57 PM
if the Bible says he did, they were......

Nope.. there were no Hittites at that time.. just like there was no Ur of the Chaldeas.. The Bible stories have been redacted, amended, added to by numerous writers over hundreds of years. Did you really go to a Bible college?

PostmodernProphet
05-03-2018, 07:14 PM
Nope.. there were no Hittites at that time.. just like there was no Ur of the Chaldeas.. The Bible stories have been redacted, amended, added to by numerous writers over hundreds of years. Did you really go to a Bible college?

no....I went to university....
the encyclopedia Brittanica (which I assume you will not reject as a vile Bible college source), puts Abraham in the era of 2000 BC to 1500 BC...
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Abraham

Wiki puts the Hittites in the era of 1600 BC to 1200 BC....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

so your position is that overlap is not possible?......

rjhenn
05-04-2018, 10:19 AM
So many animals and just one boat!

Hey, how did those koalas and kangaroos get all the way from Turkey to Australia?

And why did all of them go to Australia, with none setting up anywhere in between? Such a journey would have taken years, years in which they almost certainly would have had little koalas and kangaroos. And how did they even reach Australia, the island continent.

kudzu
05-04-2018, 10:21 AM
no....I went to university....
the encyclopedia Brittanica (which I assume you will not reject as a vile Bible college source), puts Abraham in the era of 2000 BC to 1500 BC...
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Abraham

Wiki puts the Hittites in the era of 1600 BC to 1200 BC....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

so your position is that overlap is not possible?......

Abraham is either a fictional character or a literary device.

domer76
05-04-2018, 12:08 PM
And why did all of them go to Australia, with none setting up anywhere in between? Such a journey would have taken years, years in which they almost certainly would have had little koalas and kangaroos. And how did they even reach Australia, the island continent.

Bingo. And no evidence of little koalas, kangaroos, wombats, or any other of the species found only in Australia. The mating pairs had to travel, unharmed, to Australia in their lifetime BEFORE they had offspring.

Curious, huh?

Never had a Thumper explain that one.

PostmodernProphet
05-04-2018, 12:12 PM
I am ignorant and dishonest

we know.....

domer76
05-05-2018, 10:16 PM
we know.....

lol

PMP getting his scrawny theological ass kicked so badly, he has resorted to modifying kudzu's posts. Folks, that's called

DESPERATION!

kudzu
05-05-2018, 10:32 PM
we know.....

Changing my posts is juvenile.

PostmodernProphet
05-06-2018, 06:02 AM
/shrugs.....you constantly repeating your atheist lies is juvenile.......

PostmodernProphet
05-06-2018, 06:16 AM
And why did all of them go to Australia, with none setting up anywhere in between? Such a journey would have taken years, years in which they almost certainly would have had little koalas and kangaroos. And how did they even reach Australia, the island continent.
no need for animals to travel anywhere......by the way, did you know the Australian aborigines have a legend in which they were the only survivors of a Great Flood?......

http://www.sacred-texts.com/aus/mla/mla09.htm

kudzu
05-06-2018, 06:31 AM
/shrugs.....you constantly repeating your atheist lies is juvenile.......

Aesop's Fables (Article) - Ancient History Encyclopedia



https://www.ancient.eu/article/664/aesops-fables/



Mar 8, 2014 - Written by a former Greek slave, in the late to mid-6th century BCE, Aesop's Fables are the world's best known collection of morality tales. The fables, numbering 725, were originally told from person-to-person as much for entertainment purposes but largely as a means for relaying or teaching a moral or lesson.

PostmodernProphet
05-06-2018, 06:47 AM
I cannot think of anything relevant to post

maybe you could change the subject.....

kudzu
05-06-2018, 06:56 AM
maybe you could change the subject.....


Changing quotes is a childish thing for you to do. If you aren't interested, why do you bother with these threads?

PostmodernProphet
05-06-2018, 12:03 PM
Changing quotes is a childish thing for you to do. If you aren't interested, why do you bother with these threads?

because I am afraid someone here would be stupid enough to believe you.....

kudzu
05-06-2018, 12:21 PM
because I am afraid someone here would be stupid enough to believe you.....

Many people are interested in ancient history, archaeology and the Bible.

PostmodernProphet
05-06-2018, 12:33 PM
Many people are interested in ancient history, archaeology and the Bible.

more the reason they should not be fed lies and inaccuracies......

domer76
05-06-2018, 07:02 PM
no need for animals to travel anywhere......by the way, did you know the Australian aborigines have a legend in which they were the only survivors of a Great Flood?......

http://www.sacred-texts.com/aus/mla/mla09.htm

No need to travel? Explain how they got off the boat in Turkey and magically appeared only in Australia? Is it a miracle like virgin births and walking on water type shit?

PostmodernProphet
05-06-2018, 07:19 PM
why do you think they needed to travel, domer?.....

iewitness
05-06-2018, 07:32 PM
do not feed the animals. they will die if you do not feed them.

domer76
05-06-2018, 08:01 PM
why do you think they needed to travel, domer?.....

Did they magically float from Turkey to Australia?

PostmodernProphet
05-06-2018, 09:01 PM
why does domer think the animals were in Turkey?....

domer76
05-07-2018, 08:43 AM
why does domer think the animals were in Turkey?....

lol

Pimple seems to have trouble with geography as well. He now believes the Mountains of Ararat are in Australia!

Leonthecat
05-07-2018, 09:11 AM
PmP believes Noah's ark was real.

https://researchdigest.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/b61eb-thinkstockphotos-92134543.jpg

This is where christian faith and childish naivete meld into one.
Christianity requires a level of self imposed insanity, or retardation, or both.
PmP is the poster boy for those afflictions.

kudzu
05-07-2018, 09:38 AM
PmP believes Noah's ark was real.

https://researchdigest.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/b61eb-thinkstockphotos-92134543.jpg

This is where christian faith and childish naivete meld into one.
Christianity requires a level of self imposed insanity, or retardation, or both.
PmP is the poster boy for those afflictions.

The Noah story is borrowed from the Babylonians. In 2900 BC a petty king (Noah) was hauling grain, beer and livestock down the Euphrates river on barges. Spring rains and snowmelt from the mountains caused a flood of the river basin and the barges broke loose.. It was a 4 day flood .. They came to rest in Bahrain.

There is also a mountain range in Saudi Arabia called Arrarat..

The Bible never says the "earth was flooded".. The Bible says "eretz" was flooded which means land all thru scripture... As in their was famine in the land.. not to be comfused with worldwide famine.

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 10:44 AM
bucKKKleon thinks his arguments are real.....

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 10:45 AM
The Noah story is borrowed from the Babylonians. In 2900 BC a petty king (Noah) was hauling grain, beer and livestock down the Euphrates river on barges. Spring rains and snowmelt from the mountains caused a flood of the river basin and the barges broke loose.. It was a 4 day flood .. They came to rest in Bahrain.



and yet you can't link the story......your lies are accumulating......

Leonthecat
05-07-2018, 10:50 AM
The Noah story is borrowed from the Babylonians. In 2900 BC a petty king (Noah) was hauling grain, beer and livestock down the Euphrates river on barges. Spring rains and snowmelt from the mountains caused a flood of the river basin and the barges broke loose.. It was a 4 day flood .. They came to rest in Bahrain.

There is also a mountain range in Saudi Arabia called Arrarat..

The Bible never says the "earth was flooded".. The Bible says "eretz" was flooded which means land all thru scripture... As in their was famine in the land.. not to be comfused with worldwide famine.

PmP buys all the bull in the BuyBull just as it was told to him as a little boy, as literal fact. He was also told that if he continued to believe at that childish level he would live forever. The ignorant sap never let it go.
He has suspended his intellect based on a childish naive expectation of an everlasting life.
He has literally induced mental retardation for a selfish, childish unrealistic dream.

Leonthecat
05-07-2018, 10:55 AM
bucKKKleon thinks his arguments are real.....

My observations I make about you are real. Your fantasies about living forever are childish nonsense.

kudzu
05-07-2018, 11:41 AM
and yet you can't link the story......your lies are accumulating......

We are having back to back power surges... makes it difficult.

The king's name is Zuisudra and his kingdom or city state on the Euphrates was called Suruppak.

The area flooded was 75 miles wide by 135 miles long.. There is flood sediment.. The terrain is generally flat so unlike Noah's flood story it didn't cover the highest mountains by 22 feet.

He landed in Bahrain (ancient Dilmun)

Periodicly in history that river basin flooded which is what built up the delta south of Basra.

kudzu
05-07-2018, 11:47 AM
PmP buys all the bull in the BuyBull just as it was told to him as a little boy, as literal fact. He was also told that if he continued to believe at that childish level he would live forever. The ignorant sap never let it go.
He has suspended his intellect based on a childish naive expectation of an everlasting life.
He has literally induced mental retardation for a selfish, childish unrealistic dream.

There weren't many years between Noah's flood and the Tower of Babel.. so you might wonder where all the people came from..

Plug Peleg into the story ..

Meanwhile Herodotus was impressed with the Tower of Babel when he saw it around 450 BC.

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 01:57 PM
There weren't many years between Noah's flood and the Tower of Babel.. so you might wonder where all the people came from..



more interested where your knowledge of "how many years" comes from since it isn't in the Bible......

kudzu
05-07-2018, 02:00 PM
more interested where your knowledge of "how many years" comes from since it isn't in the Bible......

Peleg was born right after Noah's flood and was still alive for the Tower of Babel.

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 02:15 PM
is that on his birth certificate?.......

kudzu
05-07-2018, 02:33 PM
is that on his birth certificate?.......

Genesis 10:25.. He was supposedly born 101 years after the Flood.

Guno צְבִי
05-07-2018, 02:40 PM
Genesis 10:25.. He was supposedly born 101 years after the Flood.

Interesting that the thumpers don't know theirs own buybull

domer76
05-07-2018, 02:42 PM
and yet you can't link the story......your lies are accumulating......

lol

"but what it states, happened....." That's YOUR link.

Such as Jonah in that big fish.

Still waiting on the geography lesson Pimple is going to teach us. How those animals got off the boat in Australia.

kudzu
05-07-2018, 02:42 PM
The city of Kish flourished in the Early Dynastic period soon after an archaeologically attested river flood in Shuruppak (modern Tell Fara, Iraq) and various other Sumerian cities.

This flood has been radiocarbon dated to ca. 2900 BC.[9] Polychrome pottery from the Jemdet Nasr period (ca. 3000–2900 BC) was discovered immediately below the Shuruppak flood stratum.

Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic: Sumerian Origins of ... - Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Noahs-Ark-Ziusudra-Epic-Sumerian/dp/0966784014

Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. ...

Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic: Sumerian Origins of the Flood Myth Hardcover – Unabridged, Unknown format. ... Robert Best backs up his theory with plausible science, archeology and paleography as the story of the Sumerian Noah unfolds.

http://history-world.org/Sumer-Akkad.jpg

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 02:43 PM
atheists and thumpers demand literal interpretations.......

kudzu
05-07-2018, 02:46 PM
atheists and thumpers demand literal interpretations.......


You just said, if its in the Bible, it happened.

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 02:49 PM
but I did not say I was committed to your interpretations.....

kudzu
05-07-2018, 02:58 PM
but I did not say I was committed to your interpretations.....

You haven't read what I wrote or linked.

Its just like the Exodus myth.. Never happened.

And the Patriarchs didn't live hundreds of years.. They had normal lifespans..

If you studied the Sexagesimal (base 60) is a numeral system with sixty as its base. It originated with the ancient Sumerians in the 3rd millennium BC.

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 03:02 PM
You haven't read what I wrote or linked.

I've read all the bullshit you've written or linked......no truth to be found in either.....

kudzu
05-07-2018, 03:17 PM
I've read all the bullshit you've written or linked......no truth to be found in either.....

Ziusudra was a real king who went down the Euphrates in the flood of 2900BC on a barge loaded with goods and livestock. The regional flood and devastation to the local population living along the river was real and attested. The man was real.


This regional flood spawned all the flood legends in the Levant including the Israeli's mythical flood.

The story is about a thousand years older than the Bible story of the flood... When the Danish archaeologist worked in Dilmun (fairly recently) they found clay tablets that also tell the story of Zuisudra..


Further Zuisudra is identified in the anchient King's List from Sumer.

Phantasmal
05-07-2018, 03:19 PM
You haven't read what I wrote or linked.

Its just like the Exodus myth.. Never happened.

And the Patriarchs didn't live hundreds of years.. They had normal lifespans..

If you studied the Sexagesimal (base 60) is a numeral system with sixty as its base. It originated with the ancient Sumerians in the 3rd millennium BC.
I give you credit for being very patient. PMP has little interest in modern education.

kudzu
05-07-2018, 03:24 PM
I give you credit for being very patient. PMP has little interest in modern education.

Makes no sense to me. He said he's not a fundamentalist and said only atheists are literalists..

Phantasmal
05-07-2018, 03:32 PM
Makes no sense to me. He said he's not a fundamentalist and said only atheists are literalists..
He isn’t self aware, and has little understanding of definitions, it’s why a discussion with him is futile for me, at least. He got his degree at a third rate school, most likely and hasn’t cracked a book on Biblical arecheogy since the 70’s if ever.

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 03:34 PM
Ziusudra was a real king who went down the Euphrates in the flood of 2900BC on a barge loaded with goods and livestock. The regional flood and devastation to the local population living along the river was real and attested. The man was real.


This regional flood spawned all the flood legends in the Levant including the Israeli's mythical flood.

The story is about a thousand years older than the Bible story of the flood... When the Danish archaeologist worked in Dilmun (fairly recently) they found clay tablets that also tell the story of Zuisudra..


Further Zuisudra is identified in the anchient King's List from Sumer.

third chance you've had to provided a link, but for some reason will not.....

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 03:34 PM
I give you credit for being very patient. PMP has little interest in modern education.

I have no interest in kudzu's lack of it.....

kudzu
05-07-2018, 03:35 PM
He isn’t self aware, and has little understanding of definitions, it’s why a discussion with him is futile for me, at least. He got his degree at a third rate school, most likely and hasn’t cracked a book on Biblical arecheogy since the 70’s if ever.

I'd say that it must have been a third rate school.


For example, at the very beginning, there are two Creation stories (Genesis 1 and Genesis 2), and in the story of the Great Flood, we can find several contradictions:

animals enter the Ark in couples (6.19-20, 7.9, 7.15) and in sevenfolds (7.2-3)
the waters of the Flood are from below the earth (7.10) and by rain (7.4, 7.12)
Noah and his family twice enter the Ark (7.13 and 7.7)
the Flood lasts one year (7.11 with 8.13); the Flood lasts forty days (7.17)


http://www.livius.org/articles/misc/great-flood/

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 03:35 PM
He got his degree at a third rate school, most likely and hasn’t cracked a book on Biblical arecheogy since the 70’s if ever.

more lies, rana?.....

kudzu
05-07-2018, 03:54 PM
third chance you've had to provided a link, but for some reason will not.....

I already provided a link earlier.. You can buy the book at Amazon or Barnes and Nobles.

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 04:22 PM
I already provided a link earlier..

really?.....which post....

kudzu
05-07-2018, 04:28 PM
really?.....which post....

Here it is again.

Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic: Sumerian Origins of ... - Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Noahs-Ark-Ziusudra-Epic-Sumerian/dp/0966784014

Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic: Sumerian Origins of the Flood Myth [Robert M. Best] on ... Author interviews, book reviews, editors picks, and more. Read it ..

Phantasmal
05-07-2018, 04:29 PM
more lies, rana?.....
No, your posts are evidence, you know very little

Leonthecat
05-07-2018, 04:29 PM
atheists and thumpers demand literal interpretations.......

You demand stupidity of yourself.
You believe all this fairy tale nonsense horse crap really happened and still have the audacity to be cynical of what anyone else believes.
You have a case of self induced retardation, PmP.

ThatOwlWoman
05-07-2018, 04:35 PM
Ziusudra was a real king who went down the Euphrates in the flood of 2900BC on a barge loaded with goods and livestock. The regional flood and devastation to the local population living along the river was real and attested. The man was real.
This regional flood spawned all the flood legends in the Levant including the Israeli's mythical flood.
The story is about a thousand years older than the Bible story of the flood... When the Danish archaeologist worked in Dilmun (fairly recently) they found clay tablets that also tell the story of Zuisudra..
Further Zuisudra is identified in the anchient King's List from Sumer.

Fascinating!

kudzu
05-07-2018, 04:40 PM
Fascinating!

I see I misspelled ancient.

The book is available at Amazon and Barnes and Noble.. maybe on Kindle and it is fascinating. Also explains how their counting method was misunderstood. That's why our Bibles say Noah, Abraham etc lived hundreds of years.

Leonthecat
05-07-2018, 04:44 PM
I'd say that it must have been a third rate school.


For example, at the very beginning, there are two Creation stories (Genesis 1 and Genesis 2), and in the story of the Great Flood, we can find several contradictions:

animals enter the Ark in couples (6.19-20, 7.9, 7.15) and in sevenfolds (7.2-3)
the waters of the Flood are from below the earth (7.10) and by rain (7.4, 7.12)
Noah and his family twice enter the Ark (7.13 and 7.7)
the Flood lasts one year (7.11 with 8.13); the Flood lasts forty days (7.17)


http://www.livius.org/articles/misc/great-flood/

It is multi sourced mythology that has nothing to do with reality. It was designed to impress early ignorant goat farmers with tales of magical beings and earth shattering events to keep them frightened, malleable and under control.
Anyone looking to the BuyBull as a history text is either insane, retarded or both.
To see people arguing the minutia in the BuyBull as though it represented anything real is hilarious.
You might as well be debating the details in Grimm's fairy tales.

kudzu
05-07-2018, 04:50 PM
It is multi sourced mythology that has nothing to do with reality. It was designed to impress early ignorant goat farmers with tales of magical beings and earth shattering events to keep them frightened, malleable and under control.
Anyone looking to the BuyBull as a history text is either insane, retarded or both.
To see people arguing the minutia in the BuyBull as though it represented anything real is hilarious.
You might as well be debating the details in Grimm's fairy tales.


I think the message is "God delivers" whether in fact he does or not. Aesop's Fables are morality tales supposedly told by a Greek Slave.. They aren't history, but they are valuable.

Leonthecat
05-07-2018, 05:02 PM
I think the message is "God delivers" whether in fact he does or not. Aesop's Fables are morality tales supposedly told by a Greek Slave.. They aren't history, but they are valuable.

Just like the BuyBull, when viewed as history Grimm's fairy tales and Aesops fables are utterly worthless. When viewed as mythical morality lessons they have some value, if kept in perspective.

kudzu
05-07-2018, 05:05 PM
Just like the BuyBull, when viewed as history Grimm's fairy tales and Aesops fables are utterly worthless. When viewed as mythical morality lessons they have some value, if kept in perspective.

Exactly... I just think when we insist that young people go against their common sense and science, we drive them away from faith.

Leonthecat
05-07-2018, 05:16 PM
Exactly... I just think when we insist that young people go against their common sense and science, we drive them away from faith.

I can only hope. Faith in magic is poison to rational thought.
IMHO teaching children that 1st century mythology and magical events are historically accurate, is nothing short of child abuse.
A small percentage will grow up to be self retarded fools like PmP taking every word in the BuyBull as fact.
Hopefully most will put those lies away with Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy, as they mature and gain some common sense about the real world.

kudzu
05-07-2018, 05:37 PM
I can only hope. Faith in magic is poison to rational thought.
IMHO teaching children that 1st century mythology and magical events are historically accurate, is nothing short of child abuse.
A small percentage will grow up to be self retarded fools like PmP taking every word in the BuyBull as fact.
Hopefully most will put those lies away with Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy, as they mature and gain some common sense about the real world.


I think we do a disservice to the Bible writers. They could have written a history, but they were aiming for something more. That's the problem with the literalists.

Leonthecat
05-07-2018, 05:44 PM
I think we do a disservice to the Bible writers. They could have written a history, but they were aiming for something more. That's the problem with the literalists.

They wrote lies to impress and control ignorant masses.
There is nothing noble in that.

kudzu
05-07-2018, 05:47 PM
They wrote lies to impress and control ignorant masses.
There is nothing noble in that.

I see your point.. or they wrote the stories to glorify themselves as they were shedding their Canaanite roots.

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 07:56 PM
Here it is again.

Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic: Sumerian Origins of ... - Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Noahs-Ark-Ziusudra-Epic-Sumerian/dp/0966784014

Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic: Sumerian Origins of the Flood Myth [Robert M. Best] on ... Author interviews, book reviews, editors picks, and more. Read it ..

lol....an offer to let me buy a book is not a link supporting your claims.....you've been quoting it.....you copied pictures.......give us the link....

PostmodernProphet
05-07-2018, 07:58 PM
No, your posts are evidence, you know very little

bullshit......I know more than any other poster here about the topic.....

Phantasmal
05-07-2018, 07:59 PM
bullshit......I know more than any other poster here about the topic.....
Lol, that’s hilarious

domer76
05-07-2018, 10:54 PM
atheists and thumpers demand literal interpretations.......

lol

^From the person who said "what it states [the Bible], happened....."

domer76
05-07-2018, 10:58 PM
bullshit......I know more than any other poster here about the topic.....

Yet you can't explain all those animals on one boat or how some migrated as far as Australia with no archeological trail.

kudzu
05-08-2018, 03:54 AM
lol....an offer to let me buy a book is not a link supporting your claims.....you've been quoting it.....you copied pictures.......give us the link....

The excerpts from the link were a promotion and the website no longer exists.


http://www.noahs-ark-flood.com/

The result of this synthesis is a reconstruction of a lost legend about a Sumerian king named Ziusudra who was chief executive of the city-state Shuruppak at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period about 2900 BC.

A six-day thunderstorm caused the Euphrates River to rise 15 cubits, overflow the levees, and flood Shuruppak and a few other cities in Sumer. A few feet of yellow sediment deposited by this river flood is archaeologically attested and artifacts at about this sediment level have been radiocarbon dated.

When the levees overflowed, Ziusudra (Noah) boarded a commercial river barge that had been hauling grain, beer, and other cargo on the Euphrates River.

The barge floated down the river into the Persian (Arabian) Gulf where it grounded in an estuary at the mouth of the river. Ziusudra (Noah) then offered a sacrifice on an altar at the top of a nearby hill which storytellers mistranslated as mountain. This led them to falsely assume that the nearby barge had grounded on top of a mountain. Actually it never came close to a mountain.

Skeptics are correct when they say Noah's flood (as it is commonly understood) could not have happened, because many of the story elements, such as grounding of the ark in the mountains of Ararat, would have been physically impossible.

This book uncovers how the mountains of Ararat got involved in the story (Noah did not go there) and locates the precise spot (within a few meters) of where Noah offered his sacrifice. This is a historical site (not on a mountain) that has already been excavated by archaeologists.

PostmodernProphet
05-08-2018, 06:02 AM
the web site can't be reached but you are pasting from it?.......are you afraid to reveal that your source is just another atheistRUs blog?......

kudzu
05-08-2018, 06:10 AM
the web site can't be reached but you are pasting from it?.......are you afraid to reveal that your source is just another atheistRUs blog?......

I saved it to a letter I sent a friend several years ago.. back in 2011.

I gave you the Amazon link twice.

In Bahrain.. they have found thousands of tablets.. Many are financial transaction records of trade between Dilmun and Babylon... but others recount the tale of Gilgamesh and other stories from ancient Sumer and Babylon.

The website must have been temporary when they first marketed the book.

kudzu
05-08-2018, 06:40 AM
http://history-world.org/shuruppak.htm

Sumerian Shuruppak

Shuruppak or modern Tall Fa'rah, is an ancient Sumerian city located south of Nippur in what is now south-central Iraq and originally on the bank of the Euphrates River. Excavations there in the first half of the 20th century uncovered three levels of habitation extending in time from the late prehistoric period to the 3rd dynasty of Ur (c. 2112-2004 BC).

The most distinctive finds were ruins of well-built houses, along with cuneiform tablets with administrative records and lists of words, indicating a highly developed society already in being toward the end of the 4th millennium BC.

Shuruppak was celebrated in Sumerian legend as the scene of the Deluge, which destroyed all humanity except one survivor, Ziusudra. Ziusudra corresponds with Utnapishtim in the Gilgamesh epic and with the biblical Noah.

PostmodernProphet
05-08-2018, 06:45 AM
I gave you the Amazon link twice.
.

the fact a book is for sale tells me nothing about the validity of sources........

PostmodernProphet
05-08-2018, 06:48 AM
Shuruppak was celebrated in Sumerian legend as the scene of the Deluge, which destroyed all humanity except one survivor, Ziusudra. Ziusudra corresponds with Utnapishtim in the Gilgamesh epic and with the biblical Noah.

so you are affirming the existence of a disastrous flood?.....

kudzu
05-08-2018, 06:55 AM
the fact a book is for sale tells me nothing about the validity of sources........

Here's a review.

his book examines six versions of an ancient flood legend (The Ziusudra Epic, The Atrahasis Epic, The Epic of Gilgamesh, Genesis 6-9, The Berossus History, and The Moses of Khoren. The author begins by listing phases and words common to each version, to demonstrate they are related and have a common origin. He then extracts the plausible and possible portions of each legend and removes the mythical (physically impossible or highly improble) elements. He draws upon archeological evidence of actual historical events, sites, and persons, examines early numbering systems, and the various meanings of key words in early written languages. The result: a very realistic, readable, and convincing reconstruction of the flood myth.
The author attributes the Noah story to a six day flood on the Euphrates River, around 2900BC. Noah (Ziusudra, a known king of the Sumerian city-state Shuruppak) and his family are swept down the river into the Persian Gulf on Noah's commercial river barge. They drift for nearly a year and eventually ground in an estuary near the mouth of the river.
This book is the most convincing and plausible account of the Noah legend I have read, or ever expect to read. The author examines every detail of the legend, and shows how mistranslations of key words and phrases led to faulty modern interpretations, such as the ark grounding on Mt. Ararat.
Also included is an analysis of the ages of Noah and the other antediluvians. Again, the author is totally convincing. This book is a scientific "tour de force". The author sifts through a mountain of information and extracts its essence ... what REALLY happened to Noah.
This book should be read by anyone interested in biblical history including (1) creationists, who may be disappointed, (2) those who are wasting their time searching for an ark on Mt. Aratat, (3) advocates of the Black Sea innundation theory, and even (4) biblical skeptics, who will discover the story is not so farfetched as it seems!

PostmodernProphet
05-08-2018, 07:00 AM
The author sifts through a mountain of information and extracts its essence ... what REALLY happened to Noah.

what criteria does he use to limit his choices to what REALLY happened?......does he conclude that most people died in the flood?.....

kudzu
05-08-2018, 07:36 AM
what criteria does he use to limit his choices to what REALLY happened?......does he conclude that most people died in the flood?.....

No.. according to the Flood sediment it was bad but it was local in the Tigris-Euphrates River Basin... so it would have seemed like their whole world. It was 70 miles wide and 150 miles long towards the Persian Gulf.

domer76
05-08-2018, 07:47 AM
the fact a book is for sale tells me nothing about the validity of sources........

^Floundering

domer76
05-08-2018, 07:48 AM
so you are affirming the existence of a disastrous flood?.....

Still waiting on the Australian trek explanation

kudzu
05-08-2018, 07:50 AM
so you are affirming the existence of a disastrous flood?.....

Oh it was disastrous but it was local.

kudzu
05-08-2018, 07:51 AM
^Floundering

Any critical thinker should realize that as the water receded it would have been impossible for a boat to settle on top of a mountain.

domer76
05-08-2018, 07:59 AM
Any critical thinker should realize that as the water receded it would have been impossible for a boat to settle on top of a mountain.

Any critical thinker WOULD realize that the reality of ANY flood story was a localized event, as there us no geologic record of a global event. The logistics and engineering of building a true Ark of that size has been shown to be an impossibility. Throw in the feeding an care of such massive numbers of animals, not to mention their ability to co-habitate and you have a very gullible believer. Then there is the gathering and dispersal of said animals, as I’ve pointed out numerous times.

Then, of course, the invention of the rainbow.....

kudzu
05-08-2018, 08:02 AM
Any critical thinker WOULD realize that the reality of ANY flood story was a localized event, as there us no geologic record of a global event. The logistics and engineering of building a true Ark of that size has been shown to be an impossibility. Throw in the feeding an care of such massive numbers of animals, not to mention their ability to co-habitate and you have a very gullible believer. Then there is the gathering and dispersal of said animals, as I’ve pointed out numerous times.

Then, of course, the invention of the rainbow.....

LOLOL...

He said he went to law school.. You are supposed to hone your critical thinking skills in the study of law.

domer76
05-08-2018, 08:54 AM
LOLOL...

He said he went to law school.. You are supposed to hone your critical thinking skills in the study of law.

Naw. I’ve worked with many dozens of lawyers through the years. For the most part, everything is by rote. Boilerplate forms and letters. Just fill in the blanks. I can’t tell you how many I had to babysit through their own cases.

Pimple is nothing more than some of these “scholars” they quote. They have their Biblical view of the world, which they NEED to be true, then they seek to wrap everything else - geology, geography, physics, engineering, genetics, archaeology, etc. - around that “truth”.

PostmodernProphet
05-08-2018, 12:20 PM
No.. according to the Flood sediment it was bad but it was local in the Tigris-Euphrates River Basin... so it would have seemed like their whole world. It was 70 miles wide and 150 miles long towards the Persian Gulf.

wrong flood then....

PostmodernProphet
05-08-2018, 12:21 PM
LOLOL...

He said he went to law school.. You are supposed to hone your critical thinking skills in the study of law.

are you finding fault with my skills?......you should put some effort into proving what you say, then......

kudzu
05-08-2018, 12:27 PM
wrong flood then....

Floods leave a footprint in the strata.. There is no worldwide footprint of sediment.

Its a ridiculous children's story.. Look for the deeper message.

PostmodernProphet
05-08-2018, 03:57 PM
Floods leave a footprint in the strata.. There is no worldwide footprint of sediment.

Its a ridiculous children's story.. Look for the deeper message.

look for deeper sediment.......so for you the deeper message is there is no God, no punishment, no flood and its all God's wife's fault......

kudzu
05-08-2018, 06:19 PM
look for deeper sediment.......so for you the deeper message is there is no God, no punishment, no flood and its all God's wife's fault......

No.. the message is about redemption.........

PostmodernProphet
05-08-2018, 08:34 PM
No.. the message is about redemption.........

the only message you've been spreading is that Ashera was God's wife and Christianity sucks........

domer76
05-08-2018, 09:53 PM
the only message you've been spreading is that Ashera was God's wife and Christianity sucks........

Naw, the main message kudzu has been sending is to view your holy book from a rational and objective perspective rather than your childish "what it states, happened....." pablum.

It's refreshing and informative. But most of all, it's amusing to watch him kick your pathetic theological ass. Over and over and over.

kudzu
05-08-2018, 10:18 PM
Naw, the main message kudzu has been sending is to view your holy book from a rational and objective perspective rather than your childish "what it states, happened....." pablum.

It's refreshing and informative. But most of all, it's amusing to watch him kick your pathetic theological ass. Over and over and over.

Actually I'm female.

The transition from worshiping the Canaanite pantheon and other gods of the Assyrians, Egyptians etc took thousands of years. He seems to think that happened in the blink of an eye even though the Bible clearly says that was not the case.

domer76
05-08-2018, 11:37 PM
Actually I'm female.

The transition from worshiping the Canaanite pantheon and other gods of the Assyrians, Egyptians etc took thousands of years. He seems to think that happened in the blink of an eye even though the Bible clearly says that was not the case.

Sorry about that gender assumption. I know better.

PostmodernProphet
05-09-2018, 04:56 AM
Actually I'm female.

The transition from worshiping the Canaanite pantheon and other gods of the Assyrians, Egyptians etc took thousands of years. He seems to think that happened in the blink of an eye even though the Bible clearly says that was not the case.

Judaism is monotheistic.....THAT is what the Bible clearly says......

kudzu
05-09-2018, 05:12 AM
Judaism is monotheistic.....THAT is what the Bible clearly says......

The Hebrews were worshiping other gods just like there were plenty of Canaanites around even after Joshua's wars killed them all.

PostmodernProphet
05-09-2018, 05:18 AM
The Hebrews were worshiping other gods just like there were plenty of Canaanites around even after Joshua's wars killed them all.

because they violated the commands set by Judaism.....Judaism is monotheistic......and Joshua's wars obviously didn't kill all Canaanites......Israel fought them through out the era of the Judges, the rule of Saul and that of David.......Solomon was the only Jewish king not engaged in war......after him it was civil war......

kudzu
05-09-2018, 06:40 AM
because they violated the commands set by Judaism.....Judaism is monotheistic......and Joshua's wars obviously didn't kill all Canaanites......Israel fought them through out the era of the Judges, the rule of Saul and that of David.......Solomon was the only Jewish king not engaged in war......after him it was civil war......

All thru scripture Israel is referred to as the harlot or whore of Babylon for chasing after false gods.

Archaeology proves Canaanite cities were NOT destroyed.

At the time of David the population of all of Palestine was about 100,000 people so there were no vast armies. David and Solomon were petty kings .. Joshua was not heroic.. They stories are written to glorify these characters and themselves.

The population of Palestine is intriguing in that it was so SMALL even after 3 million Israelites fled Egypt.