A list of false teachings in the Roman Catholic Church.

[The Ugly Truth]

It is obvious to anyone with a shred of intellectual integrity that the Catholic Church has many false teachings. Here is a list taken directly from their Catechisms.

https://carm.org/list-of-roman-catholic-false-teachings

[christiefan915]

"Following is a summarized paragraph with references found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church..." It's a teaching tool for Catholics, those who are converting, or those just looking for information. It's not written to be Rules for Protestants. I don't believe in the form of Christianity you've posted about either. Who made you the boss of deciding what's true and what's false?

[Jade Dragon]

It is obvious to anyone with a shred of intellectual integrity that the Catholic Church has many false teachings. Here is a list taken directly from their Catechisms.

https://carm.org/list-of-roman-catholic-false-teachings

That's a good bit of horse shit there. It pretty damn biased and off, as you get more of many of those things from the Protestants, Evangelicals. So much for the intellectual integrity part. Quit wasting time with a evangelists views of the catholic church, when they are tops when it comes to bullshit.

[evince]

Reception[edit]
[relevant? – discuss]
University of Waterloo religious studies assistant professor Douglas E. Cowan states, "Like the Countercult in print, the Countercult on the Net is a carefully managed presentation of selected truths, half-truths, spun truths, and untruths. Its library is designed not to inform the visitor about the group in question, but to confirm for the visitor why that group is heterodox, why it should be avoided, and why conservative Christianity is the only viable option in place of it. As well, again like the Countercult in print, the Countercult on the Net is intended as an 'equipping force' to supply Christians with apologetic resources for their own encounters with NRM members. Rather than a public library, it is rather like those few shelves of a conservative seminary library that are devoted to 'Cults and Other World Religions.' The difference, of course, is that this library is open to the public."[12] He cites CARM as an "example of the library function-and its inherent problems" with the questionable accuracy of information presented about new religious movements on the Internet.[12] Cowan comments that CARM "cleaves fairly close to the Countercult party line" and expresses a concern that "unless one looks specifically for Slick's personal information, CARM's web presentation could easily deceive a visitor into thinking it is a multi-staff, professional research organization."[12] Slick issued a written response to Cowan's article.[13] In his book Bearing false witness? An introduction to the Christian countercult, Cowan says that "Slick's choice of cultic and sectarian movements is interesting", commenting that it is rare to see Christadelphianism described as a major cult, or to see such different movements as Eckankar and Christian Identity listed adjacent to each other.[3]
In his 2007 book Teaching New Religious Movements, Virginia Commonwealth University sociology and religious studies professor David G. Bromley describes the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry as a "countermovement site" and representative of "the evangelical Christian counter-cult".[14] Bromley notes, "though the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (www.carm.org) is a very impressive counter-cult Web site, it is by and large the sole project of one man with a Master of Divinity degree. This is not to say, of course, that nothing on the site is credible or useful, merely that it ought not to be confused with information offered by those more academically prepared for the task of discussing new religious movements."[14] In her book Voices of Diversity: Multi-Culturalism in America, Mary C. Sengstock, a sociologist from Wayne State University, describes the CARM website as one of those continuing a tradition of religious prejudice, because it puts forward the view that Roman Catholics are not Christians.[15] Sengstock cites Slick's essay "Are Roman Catholics Christian?"[15][16]
Columnist Cal Thomas of Tribune Media Services comments, "Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (the Web site carm.org) has created a useful chart that shows the conflicting claims of classic Christian belief and Muslim doctrines. It is worth studying, whatever one's faith."[17] Christian Parenting Today notes that the website of CARM provides "lists, definitions, and descriptions of cults", to assist parents and children with identifying controversial groups and movements.[18] The Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance says of CARM, "This is a very large web site. It is rated by Hitbox.com as the most visited counter-cult website, and about #14 in the list of most-visited religious web sites."[19] The Gazette recommended CARM as a resource for information on apologetics.[20] Writing in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel, Pastor Bob Coy of Calvary Chapel, Fort Lauderdale characterized CARM among "excellent resources ... that will allow those who are seriously searching to discover faith is more fact than fiction."[21]
In the book The New Media Frontier: Blogging, Vlogging, and Podcasting for Christ, Roger Overton, a blogger and graduate student at Talbot School of Theology, recommends CARM as a resource, calling the organization's website "an informative site dealing with topics from the defense of mere Christianity to exposing the problems in cults and other religions. Go to the CARM website for the straight facts such as a list of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled or archived incriminating statements by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) and The Watchtower (Jehovah's Witnesses)."[22] Thomas Nelson's Safe Sites Internet Yellow Pages, The 2000-2001 Edition describes the organization as "A Christian ministry promoting Christian truth with articles on doctrine, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Evolution, New Age, atheism, and more."[23] The book recommends the organization's Theological Dictionary as among the "Best of the Christian Web", saying it "Defines many Christian and theological terms."[23] The Scholarly & Historical Information Exchange for Latter-Day Saints accuses the site of rehashing old anti-Mormon material.[24]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Apologetics_and_Research_Ministry#Recept ion


you are in a cult OP

[Jade Dragon]

"Following is a summarized paragraph with references found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church..." It's a teaching tool for Catholics, those who are converting, or those just looking for information. It's not written to be Rules for Protestants. I don't believe in the form of Christianity you've posted about either. Who made you the boss of deciding what's true and what's false?

It's an Evangelicals basis on it. Totally biased stuff, that I've never seen most of being Catholic.

[evince]

the site this guy is using slanders other religions

[christiefan915]

Reception[edit]
[relevant? – discuss]
<snip>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Apologetics_and_Research_Ministry#Recept ion

you are in a cult OP

That's a good article and right on point, thanks.

[christiefan915]

It's an Evangelicals basis on it. Totally biased stuff, that I've never seen most of being Catholic.

I don't know why some people freak out like him. I can... almost... understand the ignorance about Islam but this harshness about Catholicism is strange.

[Jade Dragon]

I don't know why some people freak out like him. I can... almost... understand the ignorance about Islam but this harshness about Catholicism is strange.

A lot of the stuff complained about I see more of in the other Christian faiths. While I still have some issue with Catholic doctrine, it's the one without a lot of the embarrassing ideas. You have some out there that think if you have Jesus, it doesn't matter if you sin, you're saved. It's not true in the least.

[ThatOwlWoman]

It is obvious to anyone with a shred of intellectual integrity that the Catholic Church has many false teachings. Here is a list taken directly from their Catechisms.


You should probably avoid going to Mass then, and carefully question every person you encounter in the future whether they are Catholic or not.

You seem scared about Catholics. I wonder why that is.

[ThatOwlWoman]

Pagan point of view time.

If your faith is so shaky and uncertain that you feel the need to come to a public forum like this to attack other people's faith.... you might want to look into your own spirit and examine the veracity of your own beliefs.

[The Ugly Truth]

That's a good bit of horse shit there. It pretty damn biased and off, as you get more of many of those things from the Protestants, Evangelicals. So much for the intellectual integrity part. Quit wasting time with a evangelists views of the catholic church, when they are tops when it comes to bullshit.

Everything listed is from the Catholic Catechisms. Perhaps you would like to tell us how they don't say what they obviously say in plain English.

[The Ugly Truth]

You should probably avoid going to Mass then, and carefully question every person you encounter in the future whether they are Catholic or not.

You seem scared about Catholics. I wonder why that is.

What ever gave you the idea that I'm scared of Catholics? Do you always ascribe emotions, thoughts, or motives to others, based on no evidence whatsoever? There is a name for someone like that.

[The Ugly Truth]

Pagan point of view time.

If your faith is so shaky and uncertain that you feel the need to come to a public forum like this to attack other people's faith.... you might want to look into your own spirit and examine the veracity of your own beliefs.

My faith is solid. It is based on Scripture. Catholics, on the other hand, equate church doctrines with scripture. Even though it disagrees with Scripture.

[The Ugly Truth]

You have some out there that think if you have Jesus, it doesn't matter if you sin, you're saved. It's not true in the least.

I don't recall anyone ever making such a claim. And Christians still sin. It's a fact. But God will forgive us if we repent. There is also willful sin, or premeditated and repeated sin. People who do that are not Christians. But Christians sin everyday. That's why we should pray every day and ask God to forgive us. No one ever said it's OK to sin if you're a Christian.

[christiefan915]

My faith is solid. It is based on Scripture. Catholics, on the other hand, equate church doctrines with scripture. Even though it disagrees with Scripture.

The Catholic church's teachings are based on Scripture and sacred tradition. Catholics were using Scripture centuries before protestantism came along.

[christiefan915]

I don't recall anyone ever making such a claim. And Christians still sin. It's a fact. But God will forgive us if we repent. There is also willful sin, or premeditated and repeated sin. People who do that are not Christians. But Christians sin everyday. That's why we should pray every day and ask God to forgive us. No one ever said it's OK to sin if you're a Christian.

You say people who sin repeatedly are not Christians but they are. They're just Christians who strayed from the path.

How do you think it works? A person prays, he's a Christian. A person swears, he's cast out of the kingdom. A person prays for forgiveness and he's a Christian again. That's just silly.

[ThatOwlWoman]

What ever gave you the idea that I'm scared of Catholics? Do you always ascribe emotions, thoughts, or motives to others, based on no evidence whatsoever? There is a name for someone like that.

When someone is upset and/or frightened over other ppl's actions/beliefs/words, they often come to public venues like this to expose those words and try to gather other like-minded ppl so that they don't feel quite so alone.

I think that your beliefs are nonsense, but they don't threaten or scare me at all. Therefore, I have never started an Internet discussion about ppl like you. I'm sure in my spirit that my Path is okay for me. I've not felt any need to evangelize others and get them to agree with me and validate my Path. I'm sure that the vast majority of our fellow passengers have good paths as well. Even if they're Catholic, atheist, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, or any other faith or lack of faith. My only caveat on religion is this: Does it make you a better person? If so, then it's all good. If your faith compels you to attack those who don't ascribe, then maybe it's not so good.

[Mason Michaels]

I still don't understand after services why the Priest gave me a prostate exam?

[Minister of Truth]

A lot of the stuff complained about I see more of in the other Christian faiths. While I still have some issue with Catholic doctrine, it's the one without a lot of the embarrassing ideas. You have some out there that think if you have Jesus, it doesn't matter if you sin, you're saved. It's not true in the least.

It's a dilemma that protestants have had to deal with when trying to separate grace from Christian living (acts, works, etc.). How do we know someone is saved/following the path to salvation when their actions are sinful? The biblical answer, which is also the Catholic answer, is that if one is living a Christian life (works, sacraments, commandments, etc.), one might be a recipient of grace.


Put another way:


Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

[kudzu]

It is obvious to anyone with a shred of intellectual integrity that the Catholic Church has many false teachings. Here is a list taken directly from their Catechisms.

https://carm.org/list-of-roman-catholic-false-teachings

What church do you attend?

[kudzu]

When someone is upset and/or frightened over other ppl's actions/beliefs/words, they often come to public venues like this to expose those words and try to gather other like-minded ppl so that they don't feel quite so alone.

I think that your beliefs are nonsense, but they don't threaten or scare me at all. Therefore, I have never started an Internet discussion about ppl like you. I'm sure in my spirit that my Path is okay for me. I've not felt any need to evangelize others and get them to agree with me and validate my Path. I'm sure that the vast majority of our fellow passengers have good paths as well. Even if they're Catholic, atheist, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, or any other faith or lack of faith. My only caveat on religion is this: Does it make you a better person? If so, then it's all good. If your faith compels you to attack those who don't ascribe, then maybe it's not so good.

Sometimes religion makes people mean , crazy and stupid.

[ThatOwlWoman]

Sometimes religion makes people mean , crazy and stupid.

Yes, for sure. And when we get into groups of like-minded sorts we become even worse.

[Guno צְבִי]

What ever gave you the idea that I'm scared of Catholics? Do you always ascribe emotions, thoughts, or motives to others, based on no evidence whatsoever? There is a name for someone like that.

Do you realize all the fundy core beliefs come from and were invented by the catholic church : sunday worship, the trinity, gobbling pork

[The Ugly Truth]

Do you realize all the fundy core beliefs come from and were invented by the catholic church : sunday worship, the trinity, gobbling pork

Wrong. Fundamentalists do not adhere to the teachings of the catholic church. And we had our own beliefs, from Scripture, centuries before the catholic church was a gleam in Constantine's eye. You should refrain from commenting on things that you are completely ignorant about. You'd look less a fool.

[Minister of Truth]

Wrong. Fundamentalists do not adhere to the teachings of the catholic church. And we had our own beliefs, from Scripture, centuries before the catholic church was a gleam in Constantine's eye. You should refrain from commenting on things that you are completely ignorant about. You'd look less a fool.

You didn't exist before Constantine, and no unorthodox Christians existed before the Catholic Church/the Ascention.

There was basically the early heresies, such as Aryanism and Montanism. There was the Great Schism in the 11th Century, the Cathars in the 14th Century, and then Protestantism in the 15th and 16th centuries (beginning with Jan Hus, and then Luther, et. al. ).

[The Ugly Truth]

What was that, threedee? I can't hear you. You're on my ignore list. Could you speak up?

[Minister of Truth]

What was that, threedee? I can't hear you. You're on my ignore list. Could you speak up?

That's because my words of wisdom cannot reach the deaf ears of the damned.

:burn:

[Minister of Truth]

What church do you attend?

He attends the Church of Satan.

[The Ugly Truth]

Still can't hear you.

[Jade Dragon]

He attends the Church of Satan.

Well since he slanders other religions, like Islam, Catholicism, etc, and says the N word, I don't know what religion he would be part of, but that came to mind. The only religions I know that slanders other religions is the Islam, and Christian extremists, Westboro Baptist, and Southern Evangelicals.

[Mason Michaels]

Well since he slanders other religions, like Islam, Catholicism, etc, and says the N word, I don't know what religion he would be part of, but that came to mind. The only religions I know that slanders other religions is the Islam, and Christian extremists, Westboro Baptist, and Southern Evangelicals.

There's Fox News Network the Religion of Trumpsters

[Guno צְבִי]

Sunday worship was instituted by the catholic church as the concept of the trinity in 325 CE at the Council of Nicaea , where your jesus was named a godman

Oh i know the history of your religion and its invention, you should try reading what you call the old testament in the original hebrew, without the christian mistranslations and forgeries placed into the goyim bible

[kudzu]

Wrong. Fundamentalists do not adhere to the teachings of the catholic church. And we had our own beliefs, from Scripture, centuries before the catholic church was a gleam in Constantine's eye. You should refrain from commenting on things that you are completely ignorant about. You'd look less a fool.

You don't even know why you believe as you do.. I suspected as much.


Christian fundamentalism, movement in American Protestantism that arose in the late 19th century in reaction to theological modernism, which aimed to revise traditional Christian beliefs to accommodate new developments in the natural and social sciences, especially the theory of biological evolution.

Christian fundamentalism | American Protestant movement | Britannica ...

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christian-fundamentalism

[kudzu]

As the theologians at Princeton developed their new approach, John Nelson Darby, one of the earliest leaders of the Plymouth Brethren (a British free church movement emphasizing biblical prophecy and the Second Coming of Christ), introduced a very different theological perspective, called dispensationalism.

First taught to the Brethren in the mid-19th century, dispensationalism maintained that history is divided into distinct periods, or “dispensations,” during which God acts in different ways toward his chosen people. The present period, according to dispensationalism, was one of expectant waiting for the imminent return of Jesus Christ. Dispensationalists believed in an apocalyptic millennialism that foretold the Rapture (the bodily rescue of the chosen by God) and the subsequent cataclysmic events of the Last Days, such as the persecutions by the Antichrist and the Battle of Armageddon (see also eschatology).

Although most Protestant churches rejected the broad teachings of the Plymouth Brethren, many accepted the “premillennialism” of Darby’s followers. They believed that the next important event in human history would be the coming of Christ to justify and redeem his people and establish them in leadership over a millennial (thousand-year) kingdom.

Singular interest in the Second Coming—an issue promoted by William Miller (1782–1849) and the Adventist churches in the 1830s and ’40s—inspired a popular movement through the Niagara Bible Conference, held every summer at Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario. Initiated by James Inglis, a New York City Baptist minister, shortly before his death in 1872, the conference continued under James H. Brookes (1830–97), a St. Louis, Missouri, Presbyterian minister and editor of the influential millennial periodical The Truth.

Other early millennial leaders included George C. Needham (1840–1902), a Baptist evangelist; William J. Erdman (1834–1923), a Presbyterian minister noted for his skill as a biblical exegete; and William R. Nicholson (1822–1901), who left the Episcopal Church in 1873 and later became a bishop in the Reformed Episcopal Church (see Episcopal Church, USA).

Near the end of the century, the millennial movement attracted other prominent leaders, such as Adoniram J. Gordon (1836–95), a Baptist minister in Boston; and Maurice Baldwin (1836–1904), the bishop of Huron in the Church of England in Canada.

The millenarians associated with the Niagara Conference also sponsored public conferences in major cities beginning in 1878, such as the International Prophetic Conferences in New York City. Chicago evangelist Dwight L. Moody (1837–99) provided an influential platform for millennial expression in his Northfield, Massachusetts, conferences. Millennialists were also active in the late 19th-century missionary revival that was eventually institutionalized as the Student Volunteer Movement.


The late 19th to the mid-20th century
During the last years of the 19th century, the millennial movement was divided over issues of prophetic interpretation, but Brookes managed to hold the dissident factions together. Within a few years of his death, however, the Niagara Conference was abandoned.

Even before Brookes’s death, tensions between millennialists and modernists had reached unprecedented levels. In the 1890s several liberal ministers and professors were subjected to church trials on charges of heresy and apostasy; the most famous such trial involved Charles A. Briggs (1841–1913), a minister of the Presbyterian Church who had denounced the idea of verbal inspiration in an address at the Union Theological Seminary in New York City in 1891. Briggs was convicted of heresy and suspended from the ministry in 1893. In response, the seminary dropped its official connection to the Presbyterian Church, and Briggs became an Episcopalian. Briggs’s colleagues Henry Preserved Smith (1847–1927) and A.C. McGiffert (1861–1933) suffered similar experiences, prompting them to join Congregationalist churches (see Congregationalism).

Continuing conservative militancy led to the founding of the American Bible League in 1902 and the subsequent publication of The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth (1910–15), a series of 12 booklets comprising articles by conservative leaders from across the country. The series, which would eventually give the conservatives their name, attacked modernist theories of biblical criticism and reasserted the authority of the Bible, affirming all the theological principles that conservatives felt were being denied by modernist spokespersons. Financed by two wealthy Presbyterian laymen and published by the Bible Institute of Los Angeles (now Biola University), The Fundamentals was freely distributed to millions of pastors throughout the world.

After a hiatus during World War I, conflict between conservatives and modernists was renewed in 1918. A number of conservative conferences in New York City and Philadelphia led to the formation of a larger and more comprehensive organization in 1919, the World’s Christian Fundamentals Association. The 1919 conference placed planks in a platform on which the fundamentalist movement would stand for years to come. Conservative-fundamentalist leaders reiterated the creedal basis of the movement and called for the rejection of modernism and related trends, especially the teaching of the theory of evolution. They turned away from the universities (almost totally controlled by administrations and faculties hostile to the fundamentalist position) and placed their faith in the more recently founded Bible institutes.

Finally, they denounced the unitive and cooperative spirit exemplified in the Federal Council of the Churches of Christ in America and threatened schism if this type of spiritual decline persisted.

By this time, the modernist position had gained a foothold in Episcopal, Congregational, Methodist Episcopal, American Baptist, and Presbyterian denominations in the North. The stage was set for major confrontations during the 1920s, and it remained to be seen only whether the modernists could be forced out of their denominations.

Not every Protestant denomination was affected by intellectual controversy during the 1920s, of course. In some, such as the Southern Baptist Convention and the Methodist Episcopal Church, South, modernism had not become prominent. In contrast, modernists were firmly in control of the Methodist Episcopal and Episcopal churches by the 1920s, because a large block of theological conservatives had left those churches in the late 19th century to form the Holiness churches and the Reformed Episcopal Church, respectively. Other denominations, such as the Congregationalists, were so loosely organized that decisions on theological controversies were difficult to legislate.

Discord among northern Baptists was focused at their annual conventions. In 1920 a group of Baptists calling themselves the National Federation of Fundamentalists began holding annual preconvention conferences on Baptist fundamentals. When their attempts to carry their views into the convention failed to make immediate progress, the more militant among them founded the Baptist Bible Union. Eventually the militants left the denomination to form several small fundamentalist churches, while the remainder stayed to constitute a permanent conservative voice within the American Baptist Convention (now the American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A.).

The most serious phase of the conservative-modernist controversy erupted among the Presbyterians. Conservatives had imposed a set of doctrines upon the denomination in 1910, declaring that the Christian faith required belief in the inerrant inspiration of the Bible, Christ’s Virgin Birth, and his Atonement, Resurrection, and miracle-working power. In 1922 a New York minister, Harry Emerson Fosdick (1878–1969), protested the activities of conservatives in foreign-mission fields in a widely reproduced sermon titled “Shall the Fundamentalists Win?” The conservatives in the denomination forced Fosdick, a Baptist serving the First Presbyterian Church of New York City, out of his pastorate. He was soon reestablished in the independent Riverside Church.

In the midst of these debates, an event in the Deep South made visible the intense division that had entered American religious life. Fundamentalists, believing that the Bible could not be reconciled with Darwin’s theory of evolution, lobbied their state legislatures to ban the teaching of evolution in the public schools; they were joined in this effort by many others who were not fundamentalists. The state of Tennessee passed such a statute, which was challenged in the courts in 1925 at the instigation of the American Civil Liberties Union. John T. Scopes (1900–70), a science teacher in the small town of Dayton, offered to serve as the defendant against the charge of having taught evolution. Two of the foremost figures of that decade, William Jennings Bryan (1860–1925), a Presbyterian fundamentalist and three-time Democratic presidential candidate, and Clarence Darrow (1857–1938), a defense counsel in notable criminal trials, served as the assistant prosecuting attorney and the lead defense attorney, respectively (see Scopes Trial). Scopes was found guilty and fined, though his conviction was later overturned on the technicality that the fine had been excessive. The law forbidding the teaching of evolution in Tennessee was upheld in 1925 and repealed in 1967.

antievolution book sale
antievolution book sale
Antievolution books on sale in Dayton, Tennessee, during the Scopes Trial, 1925.
Topical Press Agency/Hulton Archive/Getty Images
By the end of the 1920s, fundamentalists had lost control of the major denominations and had given up hope of recapturing them, at least in the foreseeable future. Although most remained in their denominations, some broke away to form their own churches. In 1932 a number of Baptists left the Northern Baptist Convention and established the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches; four years later, the Princeton theologian J. Gresham Machen (1881–1937) headed a group of fundamentalists that created the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Other fundamentalists joined one of the smaller churches that preached biblical literalism and premillennialism—such as the Christian and Missionary Alliance, the Plymouth Brethren, and the Evangelical Free Church—or one of the many independent Bible churches that arose during that period.

Having also lost control of the denominational seminaries, the fundamentalists regrouped around a set of independent Bible institutes and Bible colleges. Many of these schools, such as the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago (founded in 1886) and the Bible Institute of Los Angeles (founded in 1908), not only provided instruction to their students but assumed many of the duties formerly performed by denominational institutions. They published periodicals, broadcast from their own radio stations, held conferences, and maintained a staff of extension speakers. Indeed, they operated much like a denominational headquarters, providing a bond between otherwise isolated congregations.

The establishment of new fundamentalist denominations in the 1930s brought to the fore long-standing divisions within the fundamentalist movement that had been held in check while they concentrated on a common enemy. One of the most divisive issues for Presbyterians was the question of premillennialism and postmillennialism. While Machen defended the more conventional postmillennialism of the Princeton theology, the opposite view was taken by New Jersey minister Carl McIntire, who later founded the rival Bible Presbyterian Church.

McIntire was the focus of a second divisive issue: separatism. He argued that fundamentalists must not only denounce modernist deviations from traditional Christian beliefs but also separate themselves from all heresy and apostasy. This position entailed the condemnation of conservatives who chose to remain in fellowship with more liberal members of their denominations. In 1942 McIntire gathered the independents who accepted his position into the American Council of Christian Churches.

The fundamentalists’ denunciation of modernist theology and their censure of church-related institutions of higher learning often led them to reject contemporary education; this in turn contributed to the impression of many outsiders that fundamentalism was essentially anti-intellectual. At the same time, the fundamentalists’ withdrawal from larger denominations and their decrying of certain trends in contemporary society conveyed the impression that they were opposed to science and culture. By the end of the 1930s, the largest segment of the fundamentalist movement, believing that a conservative restatement of faith, representing the best of conservative scholarship, was compatible with contemporary intellectual culture, distanced itself from the separatists. They dropped the fundamentalist label, which they left to the separatists, and formed the so-called “neo-Evangelical” movement. Christianity Today was founded as their major periodical. Their new intellectual centre, Fuller Theological Seminary, was opened in Pasadena, California; many of the schools formerly identified with fundamentalism, such as the Moody Bible Institute, also moved into the Evangelical camp. A new ecumenical organization, the National Association of Evangelicals, was organized in 1942.

The mid-20th century to the present
Although fundamentalism was pushed to the fringe of the Christian community by the new Evangelical movement, it continued to grow as new champions arose. The Baptist Bible Fellowship, formed in 1950, became one of the largest fundamentalist denominations; Jerry Falwell, subsequently a prominent televangelist, emerged as the movement’s leading spokesperson in the 1970s. Liberty University, founded by Falwell in Lynchburg, Virginia, in 1971; Bob Jones University, founded as Bob Jones College in College Point, Florida, by Bob Jones, Sr., in 1927 (the school relocated to Cleveland, Tennessee, and then to Greenville, South Carolina, in 1947); and Regent University, founded by the televangelist Pat Robertson in 1978, were the movement’s main intellectual centres. Television, which provided direct access to the public, assisted the careers of a number of fundamentalist religious leaders; in addition to Falwell, they included Tim LaHaye, head of a pastorate in San Diego and coauthor of a popular series of novels based on the Revelation to John.

Jerry Falwell.
Jerry Falwell.
Liberty University Photography Department
In the 1960s, religious conservatives and fundamentalists became involved in a renewed controversy over the teaching of evolution in the public schools. Defending the doctrine of creationism—the view that the account of the Creation presented in Genesis is literally correct—they sought again to ban the teaching of evolution or to require the teaching of the Genesis account wherever evolutionary theory was taught. Some fundamentalists also attempted to require the teaching of so-called “creation science,” or “scientific creationism,” which presumed to present the Genesis account as a legitimate scientific alternative to evolution. In the 1990s some creationists advocated the teaching of a doctrine known as “intelligent design,” according to which the diversity and complexity of living things is impossible to explain except by positing the existence of an intelligent creator. In the late 20th and early 21st centuries, creationists were elected to various local and state boards of education, some of which subsequently enacted measures requiring the teaching of intelligent design. In some cases the measures were blocked by the courts or were repealed, and some creationists lost their seats to emboldened defenders of evolution.

In 1979 Falwell founded the Moral Majority, a civic organization that crusaded against what it viewed as negative cultural trends, especially legalized abortion, the women’s movement, and the gay rights movement. It also lobbied for prayer in public schools, increased defense spending, a strong anticommunist foreign policy, and continued American support for the State of Israel. The Moral Majority led a new generation of fundamentalists beyond simply denouncing cultural trends and back into an engagement with contemporary life in the political arena. Falwell cooperated with nonfundamentalists on common secular causes but remained aloof from the major fundamentalist organizations. Meanwhile, the Evangelicals campaigned on many of the same issues, thus blurring the boundaries between the two movements.

By the 1980s fundamentalists had rebuilt all the institutional structures that had been lost when they separated from the older denominations. As early as 1941, fundamentalist groups had come together in the American Council of Christian Churches, and in 1948 they joined with like-minded Christians around the world to create the International Council of Christian Churches. In the late 1960s the American Council attempted to move beyond the leadership of Carl McIntire, who had dominated it for more than a quarter of a century. It withdrew from the International Council to help form the World Council of Bible Believing Churches. In the late 20th century, some fundamentalists even began to engage in discussions with conservative members of the Roman Catholic Church, traditionally regarded by fundamentalists as a non-Christian cult. Protestant fundamentalists and conservative Catholics found common ground on a variety of issues, including abortion and school prayer.

From the late 1980s, fundamentalists sought to build on the success of the Moral Majority and like-minded groups. In 1988 Robertson ran unsuccessfully for president of the United States. Shortly afterward he founded the Christian Coalition, which succeeded the Moral Majority as the leading organization of the movement and became closely associated with the Republican Party. Fundamentalists were strong supporters of President George W. Bush and played an important role in the election of Republicans at all levels of government. They continued to promote conservative positions on various questions of social policy. In 2016 many fundamentalists supported Donald Trump’s candidacy for U.S. president in an attempt to secure a conservative Supreme Court appointment, though several notable leaders were put off by his polarizing and “un-Christian” remarks during his campaign.

At the start of the 21st century, fundamentalist teachings were not significantly different from what they were at the time of the Niagara Conference. Fundamentalists still believed in the inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible and rejected critical biblical scholarship and the many new translations of the Bible to which such scholarship gave rise. A significant percentage of the movement continued to use the King James Version of the Bible exclusively.

Ernest R. Sandeen

fundamentalism: Christian fundamentalism in the United States
In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Christian fundamentalists vigorously opposed theological modernism, which, as the “higher criticism” of the Bible, involved the attempt to reconcile traditional Christian beliefs with modern science and historiography.

[Frank Apisa]

Really interesting discussion.

I'm an agnostic. Here is my agnostic take on the issue of whether a god exists or not...and on the nature of any such god:

I do not know if gods exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.


The guesses of the Catholics (Disclaimer: I was raised Catholic)...and the guesses of the Protestants...are not significantly different.
There should not be such a wide schism...but that is the way things go with religions. Islam has that same problem.

The guesses are essentially blind guesses...so I am amazed the disdain people like Ugly have for the blind guesses of Catholics compared with his own blind guesses.

[PostmodernProphet]

Who made you the boss of deciding what's true and what's false?

Rana will have to die before that changes.....she will never give up the power......

[PostmodernProphet]

Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
You have some out there that think if you have Jesus, it doesn't matter if you sin, you're saved. It's not true in the least.I don't recall anyone ever making such a claim. .
I do.....the Bible states that salvation hinges on the acceptance of Jesus as your savior.....every one sins every day......it doesn't change anything.....

[PostmodernProphet]

How do we know someone is saved/following the path to salvation when their actions are sinful?

you are not in a "need to know" status......

[PostmodernProphet]

What church do you attend?

why do you ask everyone that?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Do you realize all the fundy core beliefs come from and were invented by the catholic church : sunday worship, the trinity, gobbling pork

lol....I didn't realize you were so well versed in theology.....

[kudzu]

Do you realize all the fundy core beliefs come from and were invented by the catholic church : sunday worship, the trinity, gobbling pork

Protestantism underwent huge changes because of John Nelson Darby and the appeal of his doctrine to poor and uneducated people.

[Guno צְבִי]

lol....I didn't realize you were so well versed in theology.....

Very knowledgeable in theology and primitive belief systems and its historical roots

[PostmodernProphet]

Very knowledgeable in theology and primitive belief systems and its historical roots

great....then you can tell me which form of the Catholic catechism covers gobbling pork......

[kudzu]

Sunday worship was instituted by the catholic church as the concept of the trinity in 325 CE at the Council of Nicaea , where your jesus was named a godman

Oh i know the history of your religion and its invention, you should try reading what you call the old testament in the original hebrew, without the christian mistranslations and forgeries placed into the goyim bible

Most think that Christians worship on Sunday to celebrate the resurrection.

[Minister of Truth]

you are not in a "need to know" status......

I don't need to know. That's a problem for protestants—especially Calvinists.

[Minister of Truth]

Most think that Christians worship on Sunday to celebrate the resurrection.

This has always been my understanding.

[kudzu]

This has always been my understanding.


There are a few Christian traditions that believe in Sabbath keeping and very often they are all about futuristic end times...The Millerites were like that.

The sabbath is one of the defining characteristics of seventh-day denominations, including Seventh Day Baptists, Seventh-day Adventists, the Seventh-Day Evangelist Church, the Church of God (7th Day) headquartered in Salem, West Virginia, the Church of God (Seventh Day) conferences, True Jesus Church, and the United Church of God, among many others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_seventh-day_churches

[The Ugly Truth]

I do.....the Bible states that salvation hinges on the acceptance of Jesus as your savior.....every one sins every day......it doesn't change anything.....

I believe he meant that being saved is a license to sin. It is not. Granted, everyone sins, but willful sin is a different story.


Hebrews 10:26-31 King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[The Ugly Truth]

Most think that Christians worship on Sunday to celebrate the resurrection.

Here ya go.

http://www.openthoumineeyes.com/articles/Sunday_or_Sabbath.html

Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.

[kudzu]

Here ya go.

http://www.openthoumineeyes.com/articles/Sunday_or_Sabbath.html

Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.


John 8:33

KJV They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

[Guno צְבִי]

Here ya go.

http://www.openthoumineeyes.com/articles/Sunday_or_Sabbath.html

Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.

wow! a christian kook site, very impressive!!!! :laugh:

[The Ugly Truth]

John 8:33

KJV They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

And your point is?

[The Ugly Truth]

wow! a christian kook site, very impressive!!!! :laugh:

Oh look. An atheist troll, just itching to join my ignore list. Very well. LOL!

[Frank Apisa]

Oh look. An atheist troll, just itching to join my ignore list. Very well. LOL!

What did he say that so disturbed you, Ugly.

The site you linked to is a Christian site...and if you are bothered by the descriptor "kook"...you should think over some of the descriptive words and phrases you regularly use.

[The Ugly Truth]

What did he say that so disturbed you, Ugly.

The site you linked to is a Christian site...and if you are bothered by the descriptor "kook"...you should think over some of the descriptive words and phrases you regularly use.

It's not his words. It's his attitude and his refusal to engage in meaningful debate. Notice that I haven't ignored Kudzu yet. At least he can occasionally come up with a valid argument. And he is sometimes amusing. Guno, on the other hand, is someone who is intentionally offensive, and lacks any meaningful content in his replies. I haven't ignored you either, btw. I ignored Guno because I simply do not like him. He irritates me. Got a problem with that?

[kudzu]

And your point is?

The Exodus is not an historical event. The Jews were never slaves in Egypt. Its a morality tale about crossing water out of the ignorance of God.


The word "water" is used in a variety of metaphorical ways in Scripture. It is used to symbolize the troublesome times in life that can and do come to human beings, especially God's children.

[kudzu]

It's not his words. It's his attitude and his refusal to engage in meaningful debate. Notice that I haven't ignored Kudzu yet. At least he can occasionally come up with a valid argument. And he is sometimes amusing. Guno, on the other hand, is someone who is intentionally offensive, and lacks any meaningful content in his replies. I haven't ignored you either, btw. I ignored Guno because I simply do not like him. He irritates me. Got a problem with that?

Kudzu is a woman... not a he.

[PostmodernProphet]

I don't need to know. That's a problem for protestants—especially Calvinists.

didn't know.....I've always felt rather secured.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I believe he meant that being saved is a license to sin. .

odd if he did.....I have never met anyone who believed that.....

[Frank Apisa]

It's not his words. It's his attitude and his refusal to engage in meaningful debate. Notice that I haven't ignored Kudzu yet. At least he can occasionally come up with a valid argument. And he is sometimes amusing. Guno, on the other hand, is someone who is intentionally offensive, and lacks any meaningful content in his replies. I haven't ignored you either, btw. I ignored Guno because I simply do not like him. He irritates me. Got a problem with that?

One...I am not asking about your overall relationship with Guno. I was asking specifically about your being upset with the response he gave in the matter you quoted.

The site to which you linked is a bit biased. You should be able to see that. Perhaps you did not like his wording (the wording around here often is a bit harsh)...but essentially that was what he was trying to convey.

Two...I appreciate that you do not have me on ignore. We are far apart in personal philosophy, but I have no problem treating people who disagree with me considerably...with respect.

As for the "false teachings" of the Catholic Church...I would prefer to hear YOUR personal difficulties with those teachings. I am an agnostic now...but I know quite a bit about the Church's teachings...and I see much more in common between Catholicism and Protestantism...than disagreement.

[Minister of Truth]

Ugly doesn't really want to dialogue, else he wouldn't find my quoting of the Gospels so offensive. :cof1:

[Minister of Truth]

Anyway, happy Palm Sunday, everyone!

[kudzu]

Ugly doesn't really want to dialogue, else he wouldn't find my quoting of the Gospels so offensive. :cof1:

Perhaps he thinks Jewish teachings are also false.

[Minister of Truth]

Perhaps he thinks Jewish teachings are also false.

Personally, I don't find the argument that Christians should worship on the Sabbath day to be offensive. It's a well-reasoned argument, in my opinion. But if that scares Ugly, then perhaps you are on to something.

[kudzu]

Personally, I don't find the argument that Christians should worship on the Sabbath day to be offensive. It's a well-reasoned argument, in my opinion. But if that scares Ugly, then perhaps you are on to something.


I'd like to see more interest in the meaning of the stories than the focus on demanding myths are history and science.

[The Ugly Truth]

odd if he did.....I have never met anyone who believed that.....

I hear that from atheists all the time. They think being saved is a license to sin, since "Gawd will forgive us." That's not the way it works.

[PostmodernProphet]

I hear that from atheists all the time.

doubt it....to be honest, I find your posts tiresome and meaningless......I think I will go watch some basketball now, thanks.......

[The Ugly Truth]

doubt it....to be honest, I find your posts tiresome and meaningless......I think I will go watch some basketball now, thanks.......

Tiresome and meaningless. Well, I'm not here to entertain you. Get over it.

[The Ugly Truth]

One...I am not asking about your overall relationship with Guno. I was asking specifically about your being upset with the response he gave in the matter you quoted.

The site to which you linked is a bit biased. You should be able to see that. Perhaps you did not like his wording (the wording around here often is a bit harsh)...but essentially that was what he was trying to convey.

Two...I appreciate that you do not have me on ignore. We are far apart in personal philosophy, but I have no problem treating people who disagree with me considerably...with respect.

As for the "false teachings" of the Catholic Church...I would prefer to hear YOUR personal difficulties with those teachings. I am an agnostic now...but I know quite a bit about the Church's teachings...and I see much more in common between Catholicism and Protestantism...than disagreement.

I put him on ignore because every post I've seen from him has been a drive-by insult. He is only here to irritate people. I also believe he is the same guy from another forum that I knew. He is one of the most disagreeable people I know. Let's leave it at that.

As far as Catholic teachings go, I have already posted a list of them. Idol worship, requiring good works to be saved, among other things. There is also their ludicrous claim that Salvation can only be obtained through the church. Complete and utter nonsense. Salvation is through faith in Christ. PERIOD.

And it doesn't really matter how much they have in common with Protestants. It's the stuff they get wrong that matters. Salvation is through Christ alone. He is our intercessor with God. Not the Pope. The Pope has usurped the place of Christ. If it was just that one difference, it would be enough to completely reject Catholic doctrine.

[Guno צְבִי]

What did he say that so disturbed you, Ugly.

The site you linked to is a Christian site...and if you are bothered by the descriptor "kook"...you should think over some of the descriptive words and phrases you regularly use.

People like him sure don't like to be on the receiving end of what they spew to others, and like a true coward they run away

[kudzu]

I put him on ignore because every post I've seen from him has been a drive-by insult. He is only here to irritate people. I also believe he is the same guy from another forum that I knew. He is one of the most disagreeable people I know. Let's leave it at that.

As far as Catholic teachings go, I have already posted a list of them. Idol worship, requiring good works to be saved, among other things. There is also their ludicrous claim that Salvation can only be obtained through the church. Complete and utter nonsense. Salvation is through faith in Christ. PERIOD.

And it doesn't really matter how much they have in common with Protestants. It's the stuff they get wrong that matters. Salvation is through Christ alone. He is our intercessor with God. Not the Pope. The Pope has usurped the place of Christ. If it was just that one difference, it would be enough to completely reject Catholic doctrine.


Catholics don't worship idols or the Pope.. That is past ridiculous. Good works are the natural result of Grace and salvation.

The doctrine that is false flows from John Nelson Darby .. in all its forms. That includes Hagee, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell .. dominionists, dispensationalists in all it variations.

[Guno צְבִי]

John 8:33

KJV They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

yep the goyim were never abraham's seed

[kudzu]

yep the goyim were never abraham's seed

Well, Abraham's sons by Keturah would be goyim.

[The Ugly Truth]

Catholics don't worship idols or the Pope.. That is past ridiculous. Good works are the natural result of Grace and salvation.

The doctrine that is false flows from John Nelson Darby .. in all its forms. That includes Hagee, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell .. dominionists, dispensationalists in all it variations.

They pray to statues of Mary. I've seen them bow down before her statue and ask her to intercede for them with God. That is the very definition of idolatry. Don't believe me?



4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
— Exodus 20:4-6 (KJV)

[kudzu]

They pray to statues of Mary. I've seen them bow down before her statue and ask her to intercede for them with God. That is the very definition of idolatry. Don't believe me?



4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
— Exodus 20:4-6 (KJV)


Prayer focuses the mind.. The mother of God is not an idol.

[The Ugly Truth]

Prayer focuses the mind.. The mother of God is not an idol.

They bow before her statue. They PRAY TO HER! That's idolatry.

[kudzu]

They bow before her statue. They PRAY TO HER! That's idolatry.

You are criticizing what you don't understand.. I'm not Catholic, but I get it.

[The Ugly Truth]

You are criticizing what you don't understand.. I'm not Catholic, but I get it.

Get this.

These catholics are bowing down before idols. Something Jesus expressly forbids.


https://youtu.be/Hvj0dQQmEXY

[Damocles]

I still don't understand after services why the Priest gave me a prostate exam?

Not okay. Keep away from this topic, even with yourself as the "star".

[kudzu]

Get this.

These catholics are bowing down before idols. Something Jesus expressly forbids.


https://youtu.be/Hvj0dQQmEXY


Have you ever been to a Mass?

[The Ugly Truth]

Have you ever been to a Mass?

Irrelevant. They bow down before idols. I just showed you the proof. They pray to Mary. That is idolatry. Prayer is worship, and they worship Mary.

[kudzu]

Irrelevant. They bow down before idols. I just showed you the proof. They pray to Mary. That is idolatry. Prayer is worship, and they worship Mary.

And you follow the doctrine of John Nelson Darby.

[kudzu]

Seven letters (with consensus dates) considered genuine by most scholars:
First Thessalonians (c. 50 AD)
Galatians (c. 53)
First Corinthians (c. 53–54)
Philippians (c. 55)
Philemon (c. 55)
Second Corinthians (c. 55–56)
Romans (c. 57)

Pauline epistles - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_epistles

[The Ugly Truth]

And you follow the doctrine of John Nelson Darby.

I follow Gods word. I do not belong to any organized religion. They are constructs of man and fallible. I follow Jesus Christ, and Him only. Who do you follow?

[kudzu]

I follow Gods word. I do not belong to any organized religion. They are constructs of man and fallible. I follow Jesus Christ, and Him only. Who do you follow?

So you dismiss the epistles of Paul?

[The Ugly Truth]

So you dismiss the epistles of Paul?

I didn't say that. Paul was a servant of God.

[Jade Dragon]

Ugly truth is being an egregious fool. They aren't worshiping material objects, they are worshiping who they depict. If you have any more baseless slandering, call 1-800-666-Satan, he is all ears for hate, and has been waiting for your call. You say you follow Jesus alone, but you are only shitting yourself. Those that really follow Jesus refrain from vernacular of taboo natures. The n word isn't proper for that.

[Guno צְבִי]

Irrelevant. They bow down before idols. I just showed you the proof. They pray to Mary. That is idolatry. Prayer is worship, and they worship Mary.

christianity IS idolatry


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxm26c4rklk

[kudzu]

I didn't say that. Paul was a servant of God.


Paul's influence as a theologian and thinker throughout the later development of Christianity has been incalculable and all-embracing. He was the first Christian thinker to structure the message of Jesus and his immediate followers into definite doctrines. Paul took the basic facts of Jesus' life and his main formulation of doctrine and molded them into the simple terms of a Semite and Judaic thinker.

Using his Hellenistic background and systematic training, Paul translated both facts and doctrine into a broad theological synthesis characterized by a universalism of salvation, an intricate theory of grace, and a central function of Jesus as man and as God. St. Augustine drew on Paul's doctrines to organize his own thought and thus molded all subsequent Roman Catholic theological development and formulation until the 20th century.

http://biography.yourdictionary.com/st-paul

[Frank Apisa]

Get this.

These catholics are bowing down before idols. Something Jesus expressly forbids.

Okay...let's start our "discussion" with this.

Does Jesus expressly forbid "bowing down before idols?"

Do you mind offering a citation...so I can consider it?

I do not think you are going to find any citation for your assertion, but I will follow up later with a question about whether you respect all the things that Jesus actually did "expressly" forbid or discourage.

[PostmodernProphet]

Okay...let's start our "discussion" with this.

Does Jesus expressly forbid "bowing down before idols?"

Do you mind offering a citation...so I can consider it?

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Exodus 29:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

[kudzu]

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Exodus 29:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

That wasn't Jesus speaking.

Interesting that the sons are condemned to the 4th generation. So where is salvation in that picture?

[Guno צְבִי]

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Exodus 29:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Those laws were given to the Jewish people, no others

God never brought non Jews or their ancestors out of Egypt! Ex 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."
The Lord has not given non Jews the promised land of Canaan! Ex 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you"
Since the Sabbath is a sign between God and fleshly Israel, there is nothing requiring non-Jews to keep it! (Ex. 31:13,17; Ezek. 20:12, )
If it was intended for all mankind, then why specifically say "strangers within your gates". Obviously the Gentiles (strangers) were never required at any point in earth history to keep the Sabbath or the ten commandments

[PostmodernProphet]

That wasn't Jesus speaking.
yet all of Christianity believes it was.....


Interesting that the sons are condemned to the 4th generation. So where is salvation in that picture?

about a thousand years in the future.....as Jesus reminded the Jews (Matthew 5*), the Ten Commandments was never there to give them salvation....
as YHWH said in the OT....

Deuteronomy 4:5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the Lord my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.” 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the Lord our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?
nothing there about salvation.....

*Matthew 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

[PostmodernProphet]

Those laws were given to the Jewish people, no others


and Jesus gave them to us....

Matthew 5:19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

note that both are in the kingdom of heaven.....following the commandments is not the means of entering the kingdom of heaven.....

[kudzu]

yet all of Christianity believes it was.....



about a thousand years in the future.....as Jesus reminded the Jews (Matthew 5*), the Ten Commandments was never there to give them salvation....
as YHWH said in the OT....

nothing there about salvation.....

There are lots of contradictions concerning the sins of the father.

https://carm.org/do-sons-bear-the-sins-of-their-fathers-or-not

[The Ugly Truth]

There are lots of contradictions concerning the sins of the father.

https://carm.org/do-sons-bear-the-sins-of-their-fathers-or-not

Name one.

[PostmodernProphet]

There are lots of contradictions concerning the sins of the father.

https://carm.org/do-sons-bear-the-sins-of-their-fathers-or-not

only if you really want to be confused.......a rational person can see the difference......

[The Ugly Truth]

only if you really want to be confused.......a rational person can see the difference......

This is pretty funny. The link he posted goes on to explain how there is no contradiction.

[Celticguy]

Yeah the RCC gets things wrong. That's why there are other sects.

[PostmodernProphet]

since I am sure you will ask what a rational person could see.....
those passages listed first....they are admonitions to the nation of Israel warning them what to do and not do.....

those listed last.....they are telling the nation of Israel what the limits were to their ability to punish people for violating the law.....

[Frank Apisa]

Name one.

What about my question up above, Ugly?

Since you fault Catholics for what YOU claim Jesus "expressly forbids" (he doesn't actually)...since you are being judgemental about what Catholics do...do YOU respect all the things that Jesus actually did "expressly" forbid or discourage?

For instance, At Matthew 6:5 or 6, Jesus DOES expressly say, "But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. "

Is that the way YOU "pray"...or do you do it in public settings?

[kudzu]

only if you really want to be confused.......a rational person can see the difference......

What is confusing? You can read.


(Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

(Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

[kudzu]

What about my question up above, Ugly?

Since you fault Catholics for what YOU claim Jesus "expressly forbids" (he doesn't actually)...since you are being judgemental about what Catholics do...do YOU respect all the things that Jesus actually did "expressly" forbid or discourage?

For instance, At Matthew 6:5 or 6, Jesus DOES expressly say, "But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. "

Is that the way YOU "pray"...or do you do it in public settings?


That's what I was taught to pray in private... and Muslims pray "shoulder to shoulder"..

[Minister of Truth]

Yeah the RCC gets things wrong. That's why there are other sects.

Like what? :cof1:

[kudzu]

Like what? :cof1:


Maybe purgatory.. I don't think it really matters much. Scripture contradicts itself all over the place... and churches are of men who make mistakes and seek power for themselves.

The denominations are not different in that regard.

When I was quite young I attended a fundamentalist church with my grandparents whenever I was in the US.. and they were wonderful people.. But, by the time I was 9 years old I was questioning the nonsense about Noah and Adam and Eve and the parting of the Red Sea... and Jonah spending 3 days inside a big fish.

[CFM]

Maybe purgatory.. I don't think it really matters much. Scripture contradicts itself all over the place... and churches are of men who make mistakes and seek power for themselves.

The denominations are not different in that regard.

When I was quite young I attended a fundamentalist church with my grandparents whenever I was in the US.. and they were wonderful people.. But, by the time I was 9 years old I was questioning the nonsense about Noah and Adam and Eve and the parting of the Red Sea... and Jonah spending 3 days inside a big fish.

Yet you jump right into the teachings of a pedophile named Mohammed.

[PostmodernProphet]

What is confusing? You can read.


(Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

(Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

see #102....

[kudzu]

Yet you jump right into the teachings of a pedophile named Mohammed.

You,Moron.. I'm not a Muslim.

[CFM]

You,Moron.. I'm not a Muslim.

Bitch, I never said you were. Are your grandchildren as stupid as you? Hopefully, it skipped that generation.

[kudzu]

Bitch, I never said you were. Are your grandchildren as stupid as you? Hopefully, it skipped that generation.

Did you write post # 108, or not?

BTW, Aisha was born before the Call .. so she was between 17-19 years old.

[CFM]

Did you write post # 108, or not?

BTW, Aisha was born before the Call .. so she was between 17-19 years old.

Does that say "kudzu is a Muslim"? You stupid bitch.

[Guno צְבִי]

What is confusing? You can read.


(Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

(Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZW-NKGXFGg

[kudzu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZW-NKGXFGg

Interesting video.. Thanks. Muslims share the notion that only God can forgive sins. In many of Muhammed's sermons he preaches, "Save yourselves. I cannot save you. Return to the God of Abraham."

The setting is also interesting.. The remaining wall of Fortress Antonia.......

[Celticguy]

Like what? :cof1:

Eastern orthodox, any of the protestant ones, Anglican. No end really.
Open your heart and the holy spirit will point you the way.

[christiefan915]

Eastern orthodox, any of the protestant ones, Anglican. No end really.
Open your heart and the holy spirit will point you the way.

The Catholic church started in the east. Jesus was a middle easterner.

[christiefan915]

They pray to statues of Mary. I've seen them bow down before her statue and ask her to intercede for them with God. That is the very definition of idolatry. Don't believe me?

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
— Exodus 20:4-6 (KJV)

They're not praying TO the statue, just in front of it. And intercession is not idolatry.

[Celticguy]

The Catholic church started in the east. Jesus was a middle easterner.

Right and right. Not really a geography matter though.

[The Ugly Truth]

They're not praying TO the statue, just in front of it. And intercession is not idolatry.

Jesus instructed on how to pray. Anyone who prays to Mary is disobeying God and committing idolatry. And they are BOWING down to those statues. That is idolatry.

[Frank Apisa]

Jesus instructed on how to pray. Anyone who prays to Mary is disobeying God and committing idolatry. And they are BOWING down to those statues. That is idolatry.

And YOU do it the way Jesus taught...right?

[The Ugly Truth]

And YOU do it the way Jesus taught...right?

I pray directly to God, in Jesus name. Just like Jesus taught.

[Frank Apisa]

I pray directly to God, in Jesus name. Just like Jesus taught.

I do not remember that teaching...but I am willing to learn. Please give me a citation.

But since you are saying that you do your praying "just like Jesus taught"...I can assume YOU do not do praying in your church where everyone can see you. You pray in your room with the door closed...right? Matthew 6:6

[christiefan915]

Jesus instructed on how to pray. Anyone who prays to Mary is disobeying God and committing idolatry. And they are BOWING down to those statues. That is idolatry.

You would be smart not to argue Catholicism with Catholics. It's clear you're only posting your opinion and ignoring the facts.

[kudzu]

Right and right. Not really a geography matter though.

All three Abrahamic religions started in the East.

[kudzu]

Jesus instructed on how to pray. Anyone who prays to Mary is disobeying God and committing idolatry. And they are BOWING down to those statues. That is idolatry.

They aren't bowing to statutes.... They are praying to God. You would benefit from some education..

[The Ugly Truth]

I do not remember that teaching...but I am willing to learn. Please give me a citation.

But since you are saying that you do your praying "just like Jesus taught"...I can assume YOU do not do praying in your church where everyone can see you. You pray in your room with the door closed...right? Matthew 6:6

This reply from you, more than anything, proves your ignorance. I can't help you with that. Only you can.

[The Ugly Truth]

They aren't bowing to statutes.... They are praying to God. You would benefit from some education..

If they are praying to God, then why do they bow to a statue and say HAIL MARY?

[kudzu]

If they are praying to God, then why do they bow to a statue and say HAIL MARY?


The prayer incorporates two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel: "Hail, the Lord is with thee." and "Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb." And "full of grace" from John 1:14.
Hail Mary - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail_Mary

[Celticguy]

All three Abrahamic religions started in the East.

Technically only one. The muzzies split off originally over some bad blood then Mo walked it away from being a religion at all. Jesus was a jew it's just that the Jews opted not to accept that the messiah they had been looking for came and went. So they couldn't allow those that got it right to also be Jews.
Things get messy when personal egos come into play.

[Celticguy]

If they are praying to God, then why do they bow to a statue and say HAIL MARY?

The fault is in thinking that having Mary or any of the saints on your side makes any difference.
Its between you and God. Period. They don't pray to any of them but invoking them in any way is pointless.

[kudzu]

Technically only one. The muzzies split off originally over some bad blood then Mo walked it away from being a religion at all. Jesus was a jew it's just that the Jews opted not to accept that the messiah they had been looking for came and went. So they couldn't allow those that got it right to also be Jews.
Things get messy when personal egos come into play.

Islam is a religion and Jesus lived and died a Jew..

The Messiah the Jews expected was an anointed warrior king like David who would vanquish their enemies.. They did NOT expect the "suffering servant"..

[CFM]

I do not remember that teaching...but I am willing to learn. Please give me a citation.

But since you are saying that you do your praying "just like Jesus taught"...I can assume YOU do not do praying in your church where everyone can see you. You pray in your room with the door closed...right? Matthew 6:6

https://www.wayfm.com/content/faith-life/5-ways-jesus-taught-us-how-to-pray/

[Frank Apisa]

This reply from you, more than anything, proves your ignorance. I can't help you with that. Only you can.

It doesn't prove my ignorance...I sorta suggests that you cannot offer a citation for what you said.

And it also suggests that perhaps you DO NOT pray "just like Jesus taught."

Hey, no problem, Ugly.

If your guess about a GOD is correct, I'm sure you will be able to fool your god when you come to judgement.

[Frank Apisa]

If they are praying to God, then why do they bow to a statue and say HAIL MARY?

Kinda funny to see the hatred toward elements of the religion you pretend to practice.

So it has always been.

[Celticguy]

Islam is a religion and Jesus lived and died a Jew..

The Messiah the Jews expected was an anointed warrior king like David who would vanquish their enemies.. They did NOT expect the "suffering servant"..

Islam is a cult of personality.
The Jews wanted better, too bad. But really no such thing as Christian's, just Jews with a difference of opinion

[kudzu]

Islam is a cult of personality.
The Jews wanted better, too bad. But really no such thing as Christian's, just Jews with a difference of opinion

Nonsense.. Muhammed never claimed divinity.. His sermons usually started, "Save yourself. I can't save you. Return to the God of Abraham".

[kudzu]

Islam is a cult of personality.
The Jews wanted better, too bad. But really no such thing as Christian's, just Jews with a difference of opinion

Nonsense.. Muhammed never claimed divinity.. His sermons usually started, "Save yourself. I can't save you. Return to the God of Abraham".

[The Ugly Truth]

Kinda funny to see the hatred toward elements of the religion you pretend to practice.

So it has always been.

Catholicism is not my religion. It has nothing to do with Christianity. It is full of Pagan teachings. It was founded by a Pagan Emperor.

[The Ugly Truth]

It doesn't prove my ignorance...I sorta suggests that you cannot offer a citation for what you said.

And it also suggests that perhaps you DO NOT pray "just like Jesus taught."

Hey, no problem, Ugly.

If your guess about a GOD is correct, I'm sure you will be able to fool your god when you come to judgement.

Like I said. Ignorant. What you ask for is in the Bible. If you don't know it already, perhaps you should read Gods word and educate yourself.

[Frank Apisa]

Catholicism is not my religion. It has nothing to do with Christianity. It is full of Pagan teachings. It was founded by a Pagan Emperor.

Jesus H. Christ, Ugly...of course you are not Catholic.

You hate Catholics.

Without Catholicism, there would be no Protestantism.

Try to stay on course. Don't let your anger lead you to the shoals.

[Frank Apisa]

Like I said. Ignorant. What you ask for is in the Bible. If you don't know it already, perhaps you should read Gods word and educate yourself.

I quoted a passage about prayer. Gave you Chapter and Verse.

Now you are pretending you have a Chapter and Verse that says what you are pretending it says.

C'mon.

Doesn't your god demand truth?

[kudzu]

Catholicism is not my religion. It has nothing to do with Christianity. It is full of Pagan teachings. It was founded by a Pagan Emperor.

Peter (the rock- Petra) was not a pagan emperor.

[christiefan915]

Catholicism is not my religion. It has nothing to do with Christianity. It is full of Pagan teachings. It was founded by a Pagan Emperor.

You are totally clueless. It's mind-numbing how little you know and how often you prove it.

[The Ugly Truth]

Peter (the rock- Petra) was not a pagan emperor.

Jesus called Peter a small stone. The rock that he built His Church on was Peters faith in Jesus. Peter was not the first Pope. In fact, he never even traveled to Rome.

[The Ugly Truth]

You are totally clueless. It's mind-numbing how little you know and how often you prove it.

I have posted the Pagan teachings of the Catholic Church. You have yet to refute them.

[kudzu]

Jesus called Peter a small stone. The rock that he built His Church on was Peters faith in Jesus. Peter was not the first Pope. In fact, he never even traveled to Rome.

Saint Peter resided in Rome and suffered a martyr's death there in the year 67 A.D.

[christiefan915]

I have posted the Pagan teachings of the Catholic Church. You have yet to refute them.

I have refuted your lies. You just won't accept it. Here are your arguments in a nut shell.

"Like other Protestants, Fundamentalists say Christ never appointed Peter as the earthly head for the simple reason that the Church has no earthly head and was never meant to have one. Christ is the Church’s only foundation, in any possible sense of that term.

The papacy, they say, arose out of fifth- or sixth-century politics, both secular and ecclesiastical; it has no connection with the New Testament. It has not been established by Christ, even though supposed “successors” to Peter (and their defenders) claim it was. At best the papacy is a ruse; at worst, a work of the devil. In any case, it is an institution designed to give the Catholic Church an authority it doesn’t have."

Continued

https://www.catholic.com/tract/was-peter-in-rome

[Minister of Truth]

Jesus instructed on how to pray. Anyone who prays to Mary is disobeying God and committing idolatry. And they are BOWING down to those statues. That is idolatry.

So, you're saying that the Apostles (who knew and spoke to Jesus), the first generation of disciples (who knew and spoke to Jesus), and 1500 years worth of Christians misunderstood how best to pray and to worship?

[Minister of Truth]

Jesus called Peter a small stone. The rock that he built His Church on was Peters faith in Jesus. Peter was not the first Pope. In fact, he never even traveled to Rome.

That's not what the St. Matthew's Gospel account says.

[PostmodernProphet]

I have refuted your lies. You just won't accept it. Here are your arguments in a nut shell.

"Like other Protestants, Fundamentalists say Christ never appointed Peter as the earthly head for the simple reason that the Church has no earthly head and was never meant to have one. Christ is the Church’s only foundation, in any possible sense of that term.

The papacy, they say, arose out of fifth- or sixth-century politics, both secular and ecclesiastical; it has no connection with the New Testament. It has not been established by Christ, even though supposed “successors” to Peter (and their defenders) claim it was. At best the papacy is a ruse; at worst, a work of the devil. In any case, it is an institution designed to give the Catholic Church an authority it doesn’t have."

Continued

https://www.catholic.com/tract/was-peter-in-rome


seem like pretty good arguments, thanks......the way we see it, every Christian has as much authority as the pope.....

[PostmodernProphet]

So, you're saying that the Apostles (who knew and spoke to Jesus), the first generation of disciples (who knew and spoke to Jesus), and 1500 years worth of Christians misunderstood how best to pray and to worship?

well yeah, if it includes praying to Mary.......why not pray to my aunt Tina.......she was a good woman........

[PostmodernProphet]

That's not what the St. Matthew's Gospel account says.

????....the gospel of Matthew doesn't say Peter traveled to Rome......

[Minister of Truth]

seem like pretty good arguments, thanks......the way we see it, every Christian has as much authority as the pope.....

In contradiction to the Gospel accounts?

[Minister of Truth]

????....the gospel of Matthew doesn't say Peter traveled to Rome......

It doesn't downplay Peter's foundation as the rock of the Church, as Ugly boy claims.

[Minister of Truth]

well yeah, if it includes praying to Mary.......why not pray to my aunt Tina.......she was a good woman........

By all means, do. Just because someone isn't a formally canonized saint, doesn't mean they are not able to pray for your soul. The communion of saints includes both the living and the dead, which is why you are able to pray (intercede) for others daily (like at the dinner table).

[christiefan915]

seem like pretty good arguments, thanks......the way we see it, every Christian has as much authority as the pope.....

"First among equals."

[PostmodernProphet]

In contradiction to the Gospel accounts?

there is nothing in the gospels about popes.....

[Minister of Truth]

there is nothing in the gospels about popes.....

Your inability to read Matthew almost makes me ask, "how do you know?"

[PostmodernProphet]

By all means, do. Just because someone isn't a formally canonized saint, doesn't mean they are not able to pray for your soul. The communion of saints includes both the living and the dead, which is why you are able to pray (intercede) for others daily (like at the dinner table).

seems like a contradiction to me......heaven shouldn't be a place where you worry about what's happening to folks back on earth......can you refer me to something that says heaven is a place of sorrow and disappointment?.......

[PostmodernProphet]

Your inability to read Matthew almost makes me ask, "how do you know?"

because I can in fact read Matthew.......put up or shut up.....

[iewitness]

peter was the apostle to the lost sheep of Israel [jewish / Hebrews ] paul was the apostle to the gentile/ heathen reprobate northerners. look, man. the papacy is usurpation. in your face combatant treason at emnity against Yeshua Ha Meshiach A K A The Lord Jesus Christ. this is beautiful spiritual truths in Christ : http://biblehub.com/kjv/romans/8.htm. if anyone wishes to trample these truths; you will be a swine indeed.

[kudzu]

well yeah, if it includes praying to Mary.......why not pray to my aunt Tina.......she was a good woman........

Did the angel Gabriel tell your aunt Tina that she was favored among women?

[kudzu]

peter was the apostle to the lost sheep of Israel [jewish / Hebrews ] paul was the apostle to the gentile/ heathen reprobate northerners. look, man. the papacy is usurpation. in your face combatant treason at emnity against Yeshua Ha Meshiach A K A The Lord Jesus Christ. this is beautiful spiritual truths in Christ : http://biblehub.com/kjv/romans/8.htm. if anyone wishes to trample these truths; you will be a swine indeed.

Have you ever heard of Petra? Its was a thriving city from 300 BC to 100 AD.. Petra means rock, not little stone.

[Minister of Truth]

seems like a contradiction to me......heaven shouldn't be a place where you worry about what's happening to folks back on earth......can you refer me to something that says heaven is a place of sorrow and disappointment?.......

Do you look at prayer as sorrowful and disappointing?

[iewitness]

Have you ever heard of Petra? Its was a thriving city from 300 BC to 100 AD.. Petra means rock, not little stone.

whatever. your testimony. you do have the right to remain silent.

[kudzu]

whatever. your testimony. you do have the right to remain silent.

Mark traveled with the Apostle Paul. He then accompanied the Apostle Peter to Rome and stayed by him while he was in prison. Mark is known as Peter’s interpreter, both in speech and in writing. As a fisherman from Galilee, Peter may not have spoken Greek fluently, so Mark interpreted for him.

Mark wrote down the observations and memories of Peter, one of the original Apostles. Mark’s book reflects Peter’s interest in spreading the gospel among the Gentiles.

[iewitness]

yes sir. as I testified: paul was the apostle to the gentiles and peter's mission was to the Jews of Israel and abroad. so. how come is peter acclaimed head and lord of the northern apostates ? the apostle to the northern heathen idol worshippers ? simple: usurpation of title and office; same fail as ever.

[PostmodernProphet]

Did the angel Gabriel tell your aunt Tina that she was favored among women?

did the angel Gabriel tell you to pray to Mary?......

[PostmodernProphet]

Do you look at prayer as sorrowful and disappointing?

if a million people asked Mary to tell Jesus their daughter was dying from cancer how do you think she would feel by the end of the day?......she's only human.......

do you want to know about the difficulties your great grandchildren will face after you are gone?.......want them asking you to intercede?.......

[Minister of Truth]

if a million people asked Mary to tell Jesus their daughter was dying from cancer how do you think she would feel by the end of the day?......she's only human.......

do you want to know about the difficulties your great grandchildren will face after you are gone?.......want them asking you to intercede?.......

Heaven is not a place of sorrow.

[PostmodernProphet]

Mark traveled with the Apostle Paul. He then accompanied the Apostle Peter to Rome and stayed by him while he was in prison. Mark is known as Peter’s interpreter, both in speech and in writing. As a fisherman from Galilee, Peter may not have spoken Greek fluently, so Mark interpreted for him.

Mark wrote down the observations and memories of Peter, one of the original Apostles. Mark’s book reflects Peter’s interest in spreading the gospel among the Gentiles.

the book of Acts recounts the shift of Peter from believing the gospel was only for the Jews to accepting that gentiles might be part of the church......

[PostmodernProphet]

Heaven is not a place of sorrow.

so obviously Mary is not hearing any pleas for intercession.........why would God do something that awful to her............

[Minister of Truth]

so obviously Mary is not hearing any pleas for intercession.........why would God do something that awful to her............

So, what exactly are the souls in heaven doing, if not engaged in prayer, and exaltation of the Lord? You seem quite interested in placing limitations upon these things.

[PostmodernProphet]

So, what exactly are the souls in heaven doing, if not engaged in prayer, and exaltation of the Lord? You seem quite interested in placing limitations upon these things.

body surfing in the morning.......nap.......mahjong in the afternoon........rum punch at 5.......

[kudzu]

the book of Acts recounts the shift of Peter from believing the gospel was only for the Jews to accepting that gentiles might be part of the church......


Yes. I know.

[Minister of Truth]

body surfing in the morning.......nap.......mahjong in the afternoon........rum punch at 5.......

Sounds heavenly.

[PostmodernProphet]

Yes. I know.
Acts doesn't call him a pope either.......

[kudzu]

Acts doesn't call him a pope either.......

Do you know what Pope means?

Most scholars think Peter dictated the book of Mark.. because Mark was not a disciple or an apostle.

[PostmodernProphet]

Sounds heavenly.

especially if you are a Kuyperian Calvinist.......

“There is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry, Mine!”
― Abraham Kuyper

drinking rum punch to the glory of God.......

[PostmodernProphet]

Do you know what Pope means?

the guy with the tallest red hat?......

[Frank Apisa]

Wow...lots of Catholics here.

How many of you have ever been in St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican?

As an adult, I served Mass in St. Peter's...in the Vatican.

The old Latin rite that so vexes some of these Catholic haters was quite beautiful. I was told my Latin was extraordinary...with outstanding enunciation and inflection.

I've been agnostic for over 50 years now...but that moment, back in 1956, remains one of my favorite memories. I also attended a general audience with Pius XII at Castel Gandolfo.

[Minister of Truth]

especially if you are a Kuyperian Calvinist.......


drinking rum punch to the glory of God.......

It's a good think that Christ was born into a part of the world where people drank wine instead of beer or rum. Imagine how uncivilized the Christian religion would be if we had to consecrate and consume rum during worship?

[ThatOwlWoman]

It's a good think that Christ was born into a part of the world where people drank wine instead of beer or rum. Imagine how uncivilized the Christian religion would be if we had to consecrate and consume rum during worship?

Too bad. Bet they wouldn't be losing adherents like they are now. lol

[Guno צְבִי]

Wow...lots of Catholics here.

How many of you have ever been in St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican?

As an adult, I served Mass in St. Peter's...in the Vatican.

The old Latin rite that so vexes some of these Catholic haters was quite beautiful. I was told my Latin was extraordinary...with outstanding enunciation and inflection.

I've been agnostic for over 50 years now...but that moment, back in 1956, remains one of my favorite memories. I also attended a general audience with Pius XII at Castel Gandolfo.

The vatican is beautiful as is the ceremonie ie the mass , even though as a non christian i reject the premise and the magical thinking

The protestant fundies on the other hand are whacked out lunatics by comparison, with their rolling around on the floor talking in "tongues" etc , literally thinking their bible is true , real lower IQ stuff


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2CezWts6oU&t=9s

[Frank Apisa]

The vatican is beautiful as is the ceremonie ie the mass , even though as a non christian i reject the premise and the magical thinking

The protestant fundies on the other hand are whacked out lunatics by comparison, with their rolling around on the floor talking in "tongues" etc , literally thinking their bible is true , real lower IQ stuff



I get where you are coming from, Guno.

As an agnostic...I certainly question the "belief" aspect.

As for the liturgy and other ceremonies, rites, and rituals...I get where they are coming from also...and acknowledge aspects of their usefulness.

Existence...being...are difficult things to contemplate. The world...is a great mystery...and the process of evolution from non-thinking to thinking almost necessitates considerations about "what else is there?" And the move from that to "Do we owe that 'what else''anything?"...or "What pleases or offends that 'what else'?"...is a very short distance.

Flowers in a woman's hair...neckties around a man's neck...a neat lawn...make no real sense. They just provide some sort of comfort during this trip through life. And if it works for an individual...so be it.

Just sayin'!

[kudzu]

Acts doesn't call him a pope either.......




Pope means Father. As the Bishop of Rome is the head of the church.. Mark accompanied Peter to Rome where there was already a large Jewish community and stayed with him while he was in prison there. Peter didn't stay in Jerusalem.

Protestants reject that.

[christiefan915]

so obviously Mary is not hearing any pleas for intercession.........why would God do something that awful to her............

How do you know she's not?

[PostmodernProphet]

It's a good think that Christ was born into a part of the world where people drank wine instead of beer or rum. Imagine how uncivilized the Christian religion would be if we had to consecrate and consume rum during worship?

/shrugs....we already use grape juice out of consideration of recovering alcoholics.......

[christiefan915]

Have you ever heard of Petra? Its was a thriving city from 300 BC to 100 AD.. Petra means rock, not little stone.

Well... I've heard of the rose-red city of Petra.... from an Agatha Christie novel. :)

[PostmodernProphet]

Pope means Father. As the Bishop of Rome is the head of the Roman Catholic Church. .

ftfy....

[PostmodernProphet]

How do you know she's not?

not suffering?......just an assumption.....

[christiefan915]

Wow...lots of Catholics here.

How many of you have ever been in St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican?

As an adult, I served Mass in St. Peter's...in the Vatican.

The old Latin rite that so vexes some of these Catholic haters was quite beautiful. I was told my Latin was extraordinary...with outstanding enunciation and inflection.

I've been agnostic for over 50 years now...but that moment, back in 1956, remains one of my favorite memories. I also attended a general audience with Pius XII at Castel Gandolfo.

That is awesome, Frank. You must have some great experiences to talk about.

I've been to the Basilica and touched what was left of St. Peter's foot.

[christiefan915]

not suffering?......just an assumption.....

:rolleyes: Hearing pleas for intercession.

[PostmodernProphet]

:rolleyes: Hearing pleas for intercession.
you don't think that would automatically result in suffering?......:rolleyes:

[kudzu]

Well... I've heard of the rose-red city of Petra.... from an Agatha Christie novel. :)


I got to visit it years ago.. It has a sister city in Arabia called Madain Saleh.