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Grugore
02-28-2018, 11:27 AM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

Frank Apisa
02-28-2018, 11:33 AM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

Before anyone does anything...you have to prove "the universe" IS a creation.

Perhaps it is not. Perhaps it has ALWAYS existed...in various forms.

If it was NOT a creation (one possible thing)...then it doesn't need a creator.

Grugore
02-28-2018, 12:01 PM
Before anyone does anything...you have to prove "the universe" IS a creation.

Perhaps it is not. Perhaps it has ALWAYS existed...in various forms.

If it was NOT a creation (one possible thing)...then it doesn't need a creator.

Nothing physical can be eternal. The universe had a beginning. Your fantasy does not in any way change that.

Frank Apisa
02-28-2018, 12:06 PM
Nothing physical can be eternal.

How do you know that? Are you a god?

Anyway...I think that is just a blind guess...which you need in order to make the assertion of your tread title.


The universe had a beginning.

Interesting blind guess you are making there, Grug. Thank you for sharing it.

You may even be correct. But then again, you might be wrong.

Care to tell us how you KNOW the universe (THE UNIVERSE) had a beginning?



Your fantasy does not in any way change that.

What fantasy?

Grugore
02-28-2018, 12:10 PM
How do you know that? Are you a god?

Anyway...I think that is just a blind guess...which you need in order to make the assertion of your tread title.



Interesting blind guess you are making there, Grug. Thank you for sharing it.

You may even be correct. But then again, you might be wrong.

Care to tell us how you KNOW the universe (THE UNIVERSE) had a beginning?



What fantasy?

Let me know when you're ready to talk sense, and I'll get back to you.

PostmodernProphet
02-28-2018, 12:37 PM
Perhaps it is not. Perhaps it has ALWAYS existed...in various forms.

sorry, but science says no........the inception of THIS universe is called the Big Bang......if there is some pre-existing universe from which our matter/energy/etc came it would still not be THIS universe.......

Frank Apisa
02-28-2018, 12:53 PM
Let me know when you're ready to talk sense, and I'll get back to you.

I'm talking sense.

When you start to do so also...I hope you do return.

Frank Apisa
02-28-2018, 12:56 PM
sorry, but science says no........the inception of THIS universe is called the Big Bang......if there is some pre-existing universe from which our matter/energy/etc came it would still not be THIS universe.......

But...but...but....

...he was talking about "THE" universe...not "this" universe.

If you are talking about this thing we humans call "the universe"...I would agree that scientists probably have it right that it came into existence via the Big Bang.

But where did the ingredients from the Big Bang come from?

Did they always exist...or did a god "create" them.

I DO NOT KNOW.

I suspect you and that other guy do not know either.

I acknowledge that I do not know.

And you?

Grugore
02-28-2018, 12:59 PM
sorry, but science says no........the inception of THIS universe is called the Big Bang......if there is some pre-existing universe from which our matter/energy/etc came it would still not be THIS universe.......

There is also the fact that any fictional pre universe would have to come from somewhere. The simple fact is that everything physical had a beginning. Even energy. I know, I know. Scientists tell us that energy has always existed. How could they possibly know this? They can't. They say it has always existed because it cannot be created or destroyed...by man. Doesn't mean that someone or something greater than man couldn't create it. I also find it funny that the same people who say energy is eternal, dismiss the idea of an eternal God.

Frank Apisa
02-28-2018, 01:52 PM
There is also the fact that any fictional pre universe would have to come from somewhere. The simple fact is that everything physical had a beginning. Even energy. I know, I know. Scientists tell us that energy has always existed. How could they possibly know this? They can't. They say it has always existed because it cannot be created or destroyed...by man. Doesn't mean that someone or something greater than man couldn't create it. I also find it funny that the same people who say energy is eternal, dismiss the idea of an eternal God.

Wow...something I can almost agree on with this guy.

Anyway...I find it funny that the same people who say there is an eternal god...dismiss the idea of existence itself and everything in it...being eternal.

They make no sense at all.

PostmodernProphet
02-28-2018, 02:02 PM
But...but...but....

...he was talking about "THE" universe...not "this" universe.


I'm fairly certain he's discussing the one he and I are standing in........you I'm not so sure about......


But where did the ingredients from the Big Bang come from?
either they were created or they came from another universe......either way, THIS universe had a beginning......


I DO NOT KNOW.
you know they did not exist in this universe.....

PostmodernProphet
02-28-2018, 02:04 PM
I acknowledge that I do not know.

And you?

yes, I also acknowledge that you do not know.....

PostmodernProphet
02-28-2018, 02:07 PM
dismiss the idea of existence itself and everything in it...being eternal. They make no sense at all.

no....science states that the universe had a beginning......by definition, that which has a beginning is not eternal.......it is your argument that makes no sense........even if the matter was converted from some other dimension/universe it had an end there and a beginning here........that is contrary to the definition of "eternal"

Frank Apisa
02-28-2018, 02:25 PM
I'm fairly certain he's discussing the one he and I are standing in........you I'm not so sure about......

He spoke about "the" universe. You were talking about "this" universe.




either they were created or they came from another universe......either way, THIS universe had a beginning......

This thing we humans call the universe almost certainly had a beginning...although the jury is still out about the ingredients that were already here in order for "what we humans call the universe" to "begin.". Chances are "begin" is used in this part of the conversation in quite a different way than "begin" often is used. We are talking about that "special kind of nothing" (which is actually something) that physicists speak of.

We are not discussing that. This guy is saying that there has to be a god...because "this" is a creation. We do not know if it is a "creation" or not. Even if it came into existence from "that special kind of nothing"...it DOES NOT MEAN IT IS A CREATION.

He is asserting things which he can establish logically.

He asserting there is a god (my guess he is asserting the god is HIS god); he is asserting that the universe is a creation (it may not be).



you know they did not exist in this universe.....

No I do not...and neither do you. Albert Einstein did not know...Stephen Hawking does not know.

So...where are you?

Eagle_Eye
02-28-2018, 03:19 PM
The human mind cannot truly accept that anything can be endless. Everything we know has a beginning and an end. I know space is endless but I still have to wonder if it has an end.

PostmodernProphet
02-28-2018, 03:56 PM
He spoke about "the" universe. You were talking about "this" universe.

we are all talking about the same universe....if you don't choose to engage in the discussion, you are free to stop.....



This thing we humans call the universe almost certainly had a beginning..

thank you for acknowledging the truth.....



.although the jury is still out about the ingredients that were already here in order for "what we humans call the universe" to "begin."

if all the ingredients were here and it did not begin, then the universe would require a "cause"



Chances are "begin" is used in this part of the conversation in quite a different way than "begin" often is used.
no.......we are talking about inception.......you can call it the Big Bang, you can call it "Let there be....." in Hebrew........you can even call them farts if you want to.........but beginning is beginning...



We are not discussing that.

if you don't want to discuss that you can go somewhere else and discuss what you want to discuss.......we are talking about "the creation of the universe".....

the beginning........he believes that it was created by God, some argue that it was created by random shit happening randomly, you believe some weird shit that you pretend isn't belief.......

Frank Apisa
02-28-2018, 04:09 PM
we are all talking about the same universe....if you don't choose to engage in the discussion, you are free to stop.....


thank you for acknowledging the truth.....



if all the ingredients were here and it did not begin, then the universe would require a "cause"



no.......we are talking about inception.......you can call it the Big Bang, you can call it "Let there be....." in Hebrew........you can even call them farts if you want to.........but beginning is beginning...



if you don't want to discuss that you can go somewhere else and discuss what you want to discuss.......we are talking about "the creation of the universe".....

the beginning........he believes that it was created by God, some argue that it was created by random shit happening randomly, you believe some weird shit that you pretend isn't belief.......

I do not know if the universe is a creation or not.

YOU do not know either. The only significant difference between us on that issue is that I have the integrity and honesty to acknowledge that I do not know...while you are lacking both.

I AM SAYING THAT I DO NOT KNOW...not that crap that you were trying to sell in your remarks up above.

So...you're up at bat again.

MY bet: You will whiff again.

PostmodernProphet
02-28-2018, 04:24 PM
I AM SAYING THAT I DO NOT KNOW... .
then why are you wasting our time discussing it?......

all your arguments boil down to "since I don't believe you, you are wrong"........

Frank Apisa
02-28-2018, 04:31 PM
then why are you wasting our time discussing it?......

I can't waste YOUR time, PP...you are wasting it...if it is being wasted. (You are not very good at this, are you.)


...all your arguments boil down to "since I don't believe you, you are wrong"........

To anyone who can read...and who has a modicum of intelligence...my arguments boil down to "I do not know if the universe...if existence...IS A CREATION OR NOT.


You are having trouble with that.

Lemme help you: YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THE UNIVERSE IS A CREATION OR NOT EITHER.

Now...all you have to do is to develop the integrity and honesty to acknowledge that.

(Okay...that last part WILL be a tough assignment for you. But work on it. Who knows...maybe you can pull it off.)

PostmodernProphet
02-28-2018, 04:45 PM
I do not know if the universe is a creation or not.


you are record as believing the universe began.......let's say you are right and there was a bunch of matter and energy somewhere not in the universe that "came here"......what triggered it?....

PostmodernProphet
02-28-2018, 04:49 PM
I can't waste YOUR time, PP...you are wasting it...if it is being wasted. (You are not very good at this, are you.)



To anyone who can read...and who has a modicum of intelligence...my arguments boil down to "I do not know if the universe...if existence...IS A CREATION OR NOT.


You are having trouble with that.

Lemme help you: YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THE UNIVERSE IS A CREATION OR NOT EITHER.

Now...all you have to do is to develop the integrity and honesty to acknowledge that.

(Okay...that last part WILL be a tough assignment for you. But work on it. Who knows...maybe you can pull it off.)
????.......I don't need to "know".......I have chosen to believe.......

Frank Apisa
02-28-2018, 04:54 PM
you are record as believing the universe began.......

I am on record as saying it APPEARS as though it began. Science indicates a Big Bang. Something like that seems to have happened. It does seem as though this thing we humans call "the universe" had a beginning of sorts.



let's say you are right and there was a bunch of matter and energy somewhere not in the universe that "came here"......what triggered it?....


I DO NOT KNOW...

...AND NEITHER DO YOU.

I have no problem with you blindly guessing that "a god" caused it.

I'd prefer not to guess...and stick with "I DO NOT KNOW."

I also have no problem with the fact that you do not have the honesty and integrity to acknowledge that you do not know.

PostmodernProphet
02-28-2018, 07:17 PM
I am on record as saying it APPEARS as though it began. Science indicates a Big Bang. Something like that seems to have happened. It does seem as though this thing we humans call "the universe" had a beginning of sorts.




I DO NOT KNOW...

...AND NEITHER DO YOU.

I have no problem with you blindly guessing that "a god" caused it.

I'd prefer not to guess...and stick with "I DO NOT KNOW."

I also have no problem with the fact that you do not have the honesty and integrity to acknowledge that you do not know.

its boring trying to argue with someone who's only response is "I don't know".......its a shame agnostics are so wishy-washy.....

Grugore
02-28-2018, 08:20 PM
its boring trying to argue with someone who's only response is "I don't know".......its a shame agnostics are so wishy-washy.....

There is no such thing as an agnostic, according to the Bible. You either believe in God or you don't. And God has made it clear to us that He does exist. There will be no excuses on Judgement Day.

domer76
02-28-2018, 10:26 PM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

Nope. Sure don't.

We are finding that the majority of the universe is made up of stuff we can't see, feel or detect. Invisible shit of some sort. The only proof of it is that the stuff we CAN see and detect is insufficient to explain how everything works. Doesn't mean we need your god to fill in the blanks.

We don't need your creator to explain things we're still trying to figure out scientifically. Notice how your creator and his realm shrinks with every advancement of science. That's going to be the case, pally, until your god shrinks away to nothingness.

BTW, how did your god create himself?

domer76
02-28-2018, 10:27 PM
Let me know when you're ready to talk sense, and I'll get back to you.

You're speaking of a supernatural god that created himself and YOU want to talk sense? PRICELESS!

domer76
02-28-2018, 10:29 PM
There is no such thing as an agnostic, according to the Bible. You either believe in God or you don't. And God has made it clear to us that He does exist. There will be no excuses on Judgement Day.

Where did he make it clear to you that he does exist? Ruh roh! Not this, is it?

https://pseudoastro.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/circular-reasoning-in-creationism.jpg

Frank Apisa
03-01-2018, 05:40 AM
its boring trying to argue with someone who's only response is "I don't know".......its a shame agnostics are so wishy-washy.....

I am not being wishy-washy...I am being TRUTHFUL. (Look it up...try to understand what it means.)

And if you are bored...go argue with someone else.

The topic here is an assertion that the universe requires a "creator."

You don't actually want to argue that...you want to assert it and accept it as fact. Your problem with me is not that I am refusing to debate...but rather that my argument is so strong it defeats anything said in rebuttal.

The assertion "The universe requires a creator" CANNOT be substantiated. It is nothing more than a blind guess.

You seem to be bothered that I've called that to your attention.

Frank Apisa
03-01-2018, 05:46 AM
There is no such thing as an agnostic, according to the Bible. You either believe in God or you don't. And God has made it clear to us that He does exist. There will be no excuses on Judgement Day.

I can understand why you are pretending to ignore me now.

If you Bible claims that there is no such thing as an agnostic...it has proved itself to be questionable, because there are huge numbers of agnostics.

"Judgement Day!" That is the day this god you "love" decides whether it is going to reward people like you with "eternal life"...and people like me with torture and pain for ETERNITY.

Yeah...a guy like you would "love" something like that.

PostmodernProphet
03-01-2018, 06:31 AM
...but rather that my argument is so strong it defeats anything said in rebuttal.

The assertion "The universe requires a creator" CANNOT be substantiated. It is nothing more than a blind guess.
.

I haven't even engaged in the argument that the universe requires a creator, nor have you......all you've done is express your denial......that is not an argument......

what I have done is engage in an argument over your claim the universe has no beginning, ironically your own blind guess.......of course you will deny you are arguing that as well........

but you do raise a good point......since you are boring, I should go argue with someone else......

PostmodernProphet
03-01-2018, 06:35 AM
I can understand why you are pretending to ignore me now.

If you Bible claims that there is no such thing as an agnostic...it has proved itself to be questionable, because there are huge numbers of agnostics.

"Judgement Day!" That is the day this god you "love" decides whether it is going to reward people like you with "eternal life"...and people like me with torture and pain for ETERNITY.

Yeah...a guy like you would "love" something like that.

the reference isn't to whether you exist, but to the fact that all unbelievers, including the agnostics, will share the same consequences.........not sure why you are complaining about judgment day.......its exactly what you have chosen........

Frank Apisa
03-01-2018, 07:05 AM
I haven't even engaged in the argument that the universe requires a creator, nor have you......all you've done is express your denial......that is not an argument......

what I have done is engage in an argument over your claim the universe has no beginning, ironically your own blind guess.......of course you will deny you are arguing that as well........

but you do raise a good point......since you are boring, I should go argue with someone else......

I have NEVER argued that the universe has no beginning.

I have argued that the universe MAY NOT HAVE HAD A BEGINNING.

THE UNIVERSE may be eternal. This despite the seeming Big Bang start to what we humans call "the universe."

We do not know...the scientists DO NOT KNOW...Albert Einstein DID NOT KNOW...Stephen Hawking DOES NOT KNOW.

You, unfortunately for you, are not able to acknowledge you do not know...and the guy who started this thread cannot either. Too bad that, because all it takes is a sense of integrity and a bit of honesty...which you two apparently do not possess.

The question of whether or not gods exist...has been discussed and debated by the finest minds that have lived on this planet...and they have not been able to come up with an answer. We are not going to do it here. The guy who started this thread is not going to simply declare that a god is required; have someone like you agree...and PRESTO...the question is answered.

Amazing you are not able to see the absurdity of that.

Anyway, I am glad you finally realized you should go argue with someone else. I doubt you have the spine or integrity to do that, though...and I think you will continue to trade barbs with me. I suspect you don't have what it takes to actually make a move like that.

Frank Apisa
03-01-2018, 07:11 AM
the reference isn't to whether you exist, but to the fact that all unbelievers, including the agnostics, will share the same consequences.........not sure why you are complaining about judgment day.......its exactly what you have chosen........

Jesus H. Christ!

First that crap about changing what he said from "the universe" to "THIS universe"...and now you are trying to change this also.

He said, "There is no such thing as an agnostic, according to the Bible. "

What the hell are you...his interpreter?

If you are...use what the guy actually says or writes...rather than making up stuff you see as more worthy!

Frank Apisa
03-01-2018, 07:21 AM
Just to attempt to get this thread back on track for a bit…the notion that “since this is a creation”…a “creator” is required…is self-serving nonsense.

This MAY NOT BE a creation…no matter that this thing we humans call “the universe” appears to have come about via properties we are still trying to understand.

And this thing we humans call “the universe” has been growing throughout human history from a pancake flat object smack dab in the center of EVERYTHING…to “humans inhabit a rock circling a not especially impressive star in a not especially impressive galaxy" among hundreds of billions of galaxies.

One hundred and twenty years ago...science did not even know about other galaxies. Two hundred and fifty years ago…science thought the entire of the universe was what we can see in the heavens…which really are only the stars in the surrounding area of the spiral arm in which our sun is located.

A hundred years from now our understanding of “the universe” may be as different from what it is today…as what today’s understanding is from what Ptolemy supposed back in Egypt.

And so forth!

Grugore
03-01-2018, 07:34 AM
You're speaking of a supernatural god that created himself and YOU want to talk sense? PRICELESS!

How is that any worse than believing that the universe created itself?

Frank Apisa
03-01-2018, 08:26 AM
How is that any worse than believing that the universe created itself?

Still in that mode that "the universe" has to be a "creation"...so that you can claim that god of yours is its creator.

Seems to me that god of yours is too busy being offended if people eat meat and dairy products at the same meal...

...to be creating any universes.

domer76
03-01-2018, 08:34 AM
How is that any worse than believing that the universe created itself?

I have to laugh at your lame massively lame OP. You maintain things cannot create themselves but hang your hat on a supernatural being that created himself. Then, you want to talk sense?

Priceless!

Grugore
03-01-2018, 08:37 AM
I have to laugh at your lame massively lame OP. You maintain things cannot create themselves but hang your hat on a supernatural being that created himself. Then, you want to talk sense?

Priceless!

God was not created. He has always existed.

domer76
03-01-2018, 08:41 AM
God was not created. He has always existed.

Says who?

Frank Apisa
03-01-2018, 10:11 AM
I have to laugh at your lame massively lame OP. You maintain things cannot create themselves but hang your hat on a supernatural being that created himself. Then, you want to talk sense?

Priceless!

For him...the universe had to be "created"...but his god does not have to be created.

No cutting out the middleman with folk like him.

If there were a thread entitled, "The existence of a god requires a creator"...he would be one of the people talking about the absurdity of the assertion.

But he is blind to the absurdity of his assertion.

Grugore
03-01-2018, 10:37 AM
Says who?

The Bible. But since that's probably not good enough for, it's just plain common sense. There has to be a first cause for everything. That cause would have to have existed for eternity. There is a scientific explanation for this. It's called an infinite regression. Which is what you would have without God. Btw, an infinite regression is impossible.

domer76
03-01-2018, 10:44 AM
The Bible. But since that's probably not good enough for, it's just plain common sense. There has to be a first cause for everything. That cause would have to have existed for eternity. There is a scientific explanation for this. It's called an infinite regression. Which is what you would have without God. Btw, an infinite regression is impossible.

“The Bible is the word of God"
"How can you be sure it's the word of God?"
"Because the Bible tells us so"
"Why believe the Bible?
"The Bible is infallible"
"How do you know it's infallible?"...

(Return to top)

Grugore
03-01-2018, 10:50 AM
“The Bible is the word of God"
"How can you be sure it's the word of God?"
"Because the Bible tells us so"
"Why believe the Bible?
"The Bible is infallible"
"How do you know it's infallible?"...

(Return to top)

Your ignorance is really something to behold. I'd explain, but you just wouldn't get it.

domer76
03-01-2018, 10:54 AM
Your ignorance is really something to behold. I'd explain, but you just wouldn't get it.

lol

Does the concept of circular argument escape you?

Simpleton

Grugore
03-01-2018, 11:03 AM
lol

Does the concept of circular argument escape you?

Simpleton

I do not use circular arguments. I believe in God because of the abundance of evidence, not the least of which is prophecy. Here's a question for you. If you got 40 people together and told them to write a book, two thirds of which was prophecy, each working on a different part, how do you think it would turn out? It would be a complete mess. Full of contradictions and errors. It would be humanly impossible. The Bible was written by roughly 40 different authors over a 1500 year period, and it is internally consistent with no errors or contradictions. Not only does it not contradict itself, it is 100 percent correct in everything it says. It has been proven through both historical records and archeology. The evidence is there.

Frank Apisa
03-01-2018, 11:06 AM
The Bible. But since that's probably not good enough for, it's just plain common sense. There has to be a first cause for everything. That cause would have to have existed for eternity. There is a scientific explanation for this. It's called an infinite regression. Which is what you would have without God. Btw, an infinite regression is impossible.

If you are asserting that something CAN exist for eternity...why not "this"...this thing we humans call the universe or existence?

If you are asserting that something CAN exist without a cause...why not "this"...this thing we humans call the universe or existence?

You cannot possibly be buying into that "because 'this' is a physical thing."

Chances are this is not physical...just a lot of energy giving an illusion of physical...albeit, as Albert Einstein mentioned, "a very persistent illusion."

Any physical thing...can be halved. Are you of the opinion that one can "halve" in an infinite regression? (Oh, no...you mentioned that is impossible.) If so, then the "physical" is impossible. Perhaps REALITY is all spirit...and existed forever.

domer76
03-01-2018, 11:13 AM
I do not use circular arguments. I believe in God because of the abundance of evidence, not the least of which is prophecy. Here's a question for you. If you got 40 people together and told them to write a book, two thirds of which was prophecy, each working on a different part, how do you think it would turn out? It would be a complete mess. Full of contradictions and errors. It would be humanly impossible. The Bible was written by roughly 40 different authors over a 1500 year period, and it is internally consistent with no errors or contradictions. Not only does it not contradict itself, it is 100 percent correct in everything it says. It has been proven through both historical records and archeology. The evidence is there.

The Bible says your god is infinite and that’s true because thd Bible is the word of your god so it must be true.

Circular pal. Your head spins when you cite it.

https://creationministry.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Circular-reasoning.jpg

Frank Apisa
03-01-2018, 11:16 AM
I do not use circular arguments. I believe in God because of the abundance of evidence, not the least of which is prophecy. Here's a question for you. If you got 40 people together and told them to write a book, two thirds of which was prophecy, each working on a different part, how do you think it would turn out? It would be a complete mess. Full of contradictions and errors. It would be humanly impossible. The Bible was written by roughly 40 different authors over a 1500 year period, and it is internally consistent with no errors or contradictions. Not only does it not contradict itself, it is 100 percent correct in everything it says. It has been proven through both historical records and archeology. The evidence is there.

Hummm.

Romans
3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:



Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous. Hebrews 11:4

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 2 Peter 2:7-8

Therefore the LORD hath recompensed me [David] according to my righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight. 2 Samuel 22:25

They [Elisabeth and Zechariah] were both righteous before God, walking in the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke 1:6

Grugore
03-01-2018, 11:35 AM
The Bible says your god is infinite and that’s true because thd Bible is the word of your god so it must be true.

Circular pal. Your head spins when you cite it.

https://creationministry.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Circular-reasoning.jpg

Once again, the Bible is true in everything it says. It even predicted future events with 100 percent accuracy. That proves that it's author is supernatural.

domer76
03-01-2018, 11:48 AM
Once again, the Bible is true in everything it says. It even predicted future events with 100 percent accuracy. That proves that it's author is supernatural.

How do you keep a hat on with your head spinning so much?

Grugore
03-01-2018, 11:52 AM
How do you keep a hat on with your head spinning so much?

Well, it's painfully obvious that you have nothing intelligent to say. If you were at least funny, I wouldn't be putting you on my ignore list. Some people are so stupid they are funny. You can't even manage that. You are not only stupid, you are boring. Goodbye

domer76
03-01-2018, 01:01 PM
Well, it's painfully obvious that you have nothing intelligent to say. If you were at least funny, I wouldn't be putting you on my ignore list. Some people are so stupid they are funny. You can't even manage that. You are not only stupid, you are boring. Goodbye

https://creationministry.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Circular-reasoning.jpg

PostmodernProphet
03-01-2018, 01:59 PM
I have NEVER argued that the universe has no beginning.

I have argued that the universe MAY NOT HAVE HAD A BEGINNING.

THE UNIVERSE may be eternal. This despite the seeming Big Bang start to what we humans call "the universe."

We do not know...the scientists DO NOT KNOW...Albert Einstein DID NOT KNOW...Stephen Hawking DOES NOT KNOW.

You, unfortunately for you, are not able to acknowledge you do not know...and the guy who started this thread cannot either. Too bad that, because all it takes is a sense of integrity and a bit of honesty...which you two apparently do not possess.

The question of whether or not gods exist...has been discussed and debated by the finest minds that have lived on this planet...and they have not been able to come up with an answer. We are not going to do it here. The guy who started this thread is not going to simply declare that a god is required; have someone like you agree...and PRESTO...the question is answered.

Amazing you are not able to see the absurdity of that.

Anyway, I am glad you finally realized you should go argue with someone else. I doubt you have the spine or integrity to do that, though...and I think you will continue to trade barbs with me. I suspect you don't have what it takes to actually make a move like that.

since we can know nothing it is a waste of time to discuss anything.....

PostmodernProphet
03-01-2018, 02:00 PM
Jesus H. Christ!

First that crap about changing what he said from "the universe" to "THIS universe"...and now you are trying to change this also.

He said, "There is no such thing as an agnostic, according to the Bible. "

What the hell are you...his interpreter?

If you are...use what the guy actually says or writes...rather than making up stuff you see as more worthy!
hey Francis?......fuck off......I'm through wasting my time with you....

PostmodernProphet
03-01-2018, 02:02 PM
Your ignorance is really something to behold. I'd explain, but you just wouldn't get it.

domer has one argument and he uses it whenever he can......

Frank Apisa
03-01-2018, 02:59 PM
since we can know nothing it is a waste of time to discuss anything.....

We can know plenty...unless you want to engage in solipsism.

But we cannot know the true nature of the REALITY of existence. To suppose that means we can know nothing...is absurd.

Frank Apisa
03-01-2018, 02:59 PM
hey Francis?......fuck off......I'm through wasting my time with you....

Yeah, you've said that a couple of times.

I'd don't think you've got it in you.

Oh, my name is not Francis.

Grugore
03-01-2018, 03:00 PM
domer has one argument and he uses it whenever he can......

I'm still laughing at that one.

domer76
03-01-2018, 03:18 PM
I'm still laughing at that one.

Versus this one that you just invoked? Sad that you’re too fucking stupid to recognize it. But, then again, an ignoramus that thinks a big boat held all the animals in the world will buy anything.

“The Bible is the word of God"
"How can you be sure it's the word of God?"
"Because the Bible tells us so"
"Why believe the Bible?
"The Bible is infallible"
"How do you know it's infallible?"...

(Return to top)

Nordberg
03-16-2018, 09:16 PM
since we can know nothing it is a waste of time to discuss anything.....

Well religion make it up. Then followers believe it. They pretend to know, but you are right, they do not. Religion is a complete waste of time.

CFM
03-16-2018, 10:03 PM
Well religion make it up. Then followers believe it. They pretend to know, but you are right, they do not. Religion is a complete waste of time.

That you exist is proof that God exists and has a sense of humor. He created you as a dumbass so the rest of us could laugh at you.

Flash
03-16-2018, 10:17 PM
That you exist is proof that God exists and has a sense of humor. He created you as a dumbass so the rest of us could laugh at you.

Did God have a creator?

CFM
03-17-2018, 04:28 AM
Did God have a creator?

Invalid question.

PostmodernProphet
03-17-2018, 06:23 AM
Did God have a creator?
ignorant question.......doesn't need one........

Frank Apisa
03-17-2018, 07:01 AM
Did God have a creator?

You stumped him, Flash.

He is far from the sharpest tool in the shed, though, so "stumping" him does not have a pleasing a feel as usual.

kudzu
03-21-2018, 01:47 AM
You stumped him, Flash.

He is far from the sharpest tool in the shed, though, so "stumping" him does not have a pleasing a feel as usual.

I doubt he has ever given the matter any thought.

PostmodernProphet
03-21-2018, 04:59 AM
You stumped him, Flash.

He is far from the sharpest tool in the shed, though, so "stumping" him does not have a pleasing a feel as usual.
actually it would appear that my response stopped the Flash.......or were you stupid enough not to notice that?......

Frank Apisa
03-21-2018, 05:39 AM
actually it would appear that my response stopped the Flash.......or were you stupid enough not to notice that?......

I am not stupid, PP.

And if you think that response of yours was of value...then perhaps "stupid" is a problem you have to deal with.

People like you seem to have no problem positing something (your god) that was not created...yet when speaking of THE UNIVERSE...suddenly everything has to have a creator.

And please, don't start that "physical versus non-physical" nonsense...unless you can establish with certainty that what we humans call "the universe" is "physical" and that your god is "non-physical." Simply asserting it...is not "establishing" it.

ThatOwlWoman
03-21-2018, 06:37 AM
I am not stupid, PP.

And if you think that response of yours was of value...then perhaps "stupid" is a problem you have to deal with.

People like you seem to have no problem positing something (your god) that was not created...yet when speaking of THE UNIVERSE...suddenly everything has to have a creator.

And please, don't start that "physical versus non-physical" nonsense...unless you can establish with certainty that what we humans call "the universe" is "physical" and that your god is "non-physical." Simply asserting it...is not "establishing" it.

You're blinding them with science again.

hypGnosis
03-21-2018, 11:58 AM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

What is it that you have in mind when you write about something called a "Creator"?

Grugore
03-21-2018, 02:15 PM
What is it that you have in mind when you write about something called a "Creator"?

Perhaps you should be asking yourself who would be capable of creating it.

evince
03-21-2018, 02:43 PM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

it doesnt have to create its self

so you are wrong right off the bat

evince
03-21-2018, 02:44 PM
Perhaps you should be asking yourself who would be capable of creating it.

it doesn't need to create its self

who said that was imperative?

hypGnosis
03-21-2018, 02:56 PM
Perhaps you should be asking yourself who would be capable of creating it.

Perhaps I would if I had a reason for anthropomorphizing the "something".

Can you supply me with a reason for considering a "who"?

PostmodernProphet
03-21-2018, 03:20 PM
I am not stupid, PP.
.

of course you are.....go play in the street......if you don't like what I believe you can ignore it or live with it......I really don't give a fuck if you agree with me......science believes that the universe is material and that the universe had a beginning........if you don't like that tell science why its wrong.....

evince
03-21-2018, 03:53 PM
why do these doinks keep claiming something had to create its self


where is that written?

BRUTALITOPS
03-21-2018, 03:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

BRUTALITOPS
03-21-2018, 03:58 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHRqibyNMpw

evince
03-21-2018, 04:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

thanks grind

go to minute 11

Frank Apisa
03-21-2018, 04:17 PM
of course you are.....

No...I am not.




go play in the street......

Very classy.



if you don't like what I believe you can ignore it or live with it......

I could not care less about what you guess about the REALITY of existence.



I really don't give a fuck if you agree with me......

Nor I...with you.




science believes that the universe is material and that the universe had a beginning.....


Science asserts that this thing we humans call "the universe" had a beginning in the Big Bang. They do NOT know if this is all there is to THE UNIVERSE...they do not know about what WAS before the Big Bang. As for this thing being "material"...you are incorrect. Scientists have discovered that molecule exist...made of atoms...made of sub atomic particles...made of...who knows what.

If the answer were as simple as you think it is...EVERY scientist would be a theist of some sort...but most are atheists or agnostics.

So wake the hell up before calling other people stupid.



...if you don't like that tell science why its wrong.....

Not necessary. You are mistaking the scientific position.

domer76
03-21-2018, 07:36 PM
Perhaps you should be asking yourself who would be capable of creating it.

I thought you said this god of yours is not a physical entity. So, what’s with the “who” in ‘who created the universe’?

Looks like your god is a physical entity. A self-created one?

hypGnosis
03-23-2018, 02:03 PM
Once again, the Bible is true in everything it says. It even predicted future events with 100 percent accuracy. That proves that it's author is supernatural.

That is, indeed, an interesting conjecture ... 100 percent accuracy.

Would you change your mind if I can show you a clear-cut example of a biblical prediction/prophecy was not 100% accurate?

PostmodernProphet
03-23-2018, 05:16 PM
That is, indeed, an interesting conjecture ... 100 percent accuracy.

Would you change your mind if I can show you a clear-cut example of a biblical prediction/prophecy was not 100% accurate?

I predict you will not be able to do that without lying about what the Bible predicts......

hypGnosis
03-23-2018, 07:17 PM
I predict you will not be able to do that without lying about what the Bible predicts......

Cool!

It involves two male characters who lived at different times and different places; and the one in the most recent time said it would duplicate a similar feat (timewise) done in the earlier instance.

But you didn't answer my question ... you merely expressed confidence that I will fail.

Again, Would you change your mind if I succeed? More importantly, would it change your certainty on biblical predictions/prophecies to something less than 100%?

Chapters & verses to follow if you (yea or nay) answer my question.

BTW, let me know if there is a particular translation of the Bible you prefer, one that is online.

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 04:56 AM
Cool!

It involves two male characters who lived at different times and different places; and the one in the most recent time said it would duplicate a similar feat (timewise) done in the earlier instance.

But you didn't answer my question ... you merely expressed confidence that I will fail.

Again, Would you change your mind if I succeed? More importantly, would it change your certainty on biblical predictions/prophecies to something less than 100%?

Chapters & verses to follow if you (yea or nay) answer my question.

BTW, let me know if there is a particular translation of the Bible you prefer, one that is online.

There actually are many.

But this is not going to work with PP. He simply ignores anything that does not comport with what he has decided is so.

kudzu
03-24-2018, 05:07 AM
I predict you will not be able to do that without lying about what the Bible predicts......

Most Bible prophesy was written after the fact.

The term for it is Vāticinium ex ēventū is a technical theological or historiographical term referring to a prophecy written after the author already had information about the events being "foretold". The text is written so as to appear that the prophecy had taken place before the event, when in fact it was written after the events supposedly predicted.

Vaticinium ex eventu is a form of hindsight bias. The concept is similar but distinct from postdiction, where prophecies that were genuinely written or spoken before the event are reinterpreted after the event to fit the facts as they occurred....

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 05:16 AM
Cool!

It involves two male characters who lived at different times and different places; and the one in the most recent time said it would duplicate a similar feat (timewise) done in the earlier instance.

But you didn't answer my question ... you merely expressed confidence that I will fail.

Again, Would you change your mind if I succeed? More importantly, would it change your certainty on biblical predictions/prophecies to something less than 100%?

Chapters & verses to follow if you (yea or nay) answer my question.

BTW, let me know if there is a particular translation of the Bible you prefer, one that is online.

I use the NIV.....quit wasting time trot out your evidence or quit posting......

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 05:17 AM
There actually are many.

But this is not going to work with PP. He simply ignores anything that does not comport with what he has decided is so.

lol.....talk about projection.......

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 05:19 AM
Most Bible prophesy was written after the fact.

The term for it is Vāticinium ex ēventū is a technical theological or historiographical term referring to a prophecy written after the author already had information about the events being "foretold". The text is written so as to appear that the prophecy had taken place before the event, when in fact it was written after the events supposedly predicted.

Vaticinium ex eventu is a form of hindsight bias. The concept is similar but distinct from postdiction, where prophecies that were genuinely written or spoken before the event are reinterpreted after the event to fit the facts as they occurred....

I am writing this after you posted........I predict you will get things wrong again.......

kudzu
03-24-2018, 05:25 AM
I am writing this after you posted........I predict you will get things wrong again.......

Nope..

Leviticus and Deuteronomy were written during and after the Babylonian exile.. Then Genesis and Exodus were written later.

During the time of King Omri the stories from Judah and Israel were cobbled together..

They had schools for prophets.. and they were like our modern day news analysts predicting loosely what might happen if they did or didn't do certain things.

Some books were written by more than one author and added to hundreds of years later.

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 05:40 AM
Nope..

Leviticus and Deuteronomy were written during and after the Babylonian exile.. Then Genesis and Exodus were written later.

During the time of King Omri the stories from Judah and Israel were cobbled together..

They had schools for prophets.. and they were like our modern day news analysts predicting loosely what might happen if they did or didn't do certain things.

Some books were written by more than one author and added to hundreds of years later.
I sort of like the parallel between modern day news analysts and prophets......especially the postmodern kind......the Pentateuch is a collection of oral tradition set down in writing when Hebrew became a written language.......that was long before exile.......
There are some who believe the book of Isaiah was written by a succession of writers using that name over hundreds of years........there are some who believe Isaiah lived for hundreds of years......I prefer to accept that God granted him great insight into what would happen......

ThatOwlWoman
03-24-2018, 05:48 AM
There actually are many.

But this is not going to work with PP. He simply ignores anything that does not comport with what he has decided is so.

Exactly.

https://www.britannica.com/science/confirmation-bias

kudzu
03-24-2018, 05:55 AM
I sort of like the parallel between modern day news analysts and prophets......especially the postmodern kind......the Pentateuch is a collection of oral tradition set down in writing when Hebrew became a written language.......that was long before exile.......
There are some who believe the book of Isaiah was written by a succession of writers using that name over hundreds of years........there are some who believe Isaiah lived for hundreds of years......I prefer to accept that God granted him great insight into what would happen......

Sorry. The Hebrews had no national narrative before the Babylonian exile... The had no history or origin myths.. Babylon was rich in everything by comparison. Once they had been exposed to Babylon, they reinvented themselves and created many laws and rituals to maintain their tribal identity and keep them apart from the "others".

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 05:57 AM
The best guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a very self-serving history (of sorts) of the early Hebrew people...a relatively unsophisticated, unknowledgeable, superstitious people who had many enemies in the areas where they lived. Their enemies worshiped barbarous, vengeful, wrathful, unforgiving, demanding, murderous, petty gods. And to protect themselves from those gods, they invented an especially barbarous, vengeful, wrathful, unforgiving, demanding, murderous, petty god...and worshiped it.

The best guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a necessary mythology.

I can easily understand why the ancient Hebrews felt about it the way they did. The fact that modern theists feel they way they do about it...is disappointing and disheartening.

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 05:59 AM
Sorry. The Hebrews had no national narrative before the Babylonian exile... The had no history or origin myths.. Babylon was rich in everything by comparison. Once they had been exposed to Babylon, they reinvented themselves and created many laws and rituals to maintain their tribal identity and keep them apart from the "others".

I'm sorry you believe that, but I have no control over how stupid you can be......

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 05:59 AM
The best guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a very self-serving history (of sorts) of the early Hebrew people...a relatively unsophisticated, unknowledgeable, superstitious people who had many enemies in the areas where they lived. Their enemies worshiped barbarous, vengeful, wrathful, unforgiving, demanding, murderous, petty gods. And to protect themselves from those gods, they invented an especially barbarous, vengeful, wrathful, unforgiving, demanding, murderous, petty god...and worshiped it.

The best guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a necessary mythology.

I can easily understand why the ancient Hebrews felt about it the way they did. The fact that modern theists feel they way they do about it...is disappointing and disheartening.

just goes to show you that guessing has no future.....

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 06:00 AM
just goes to show you that guessing has no future.....

I agree. Probably that is why theist call their guesses...beliefs.

kudzu
03-24-2018, 06:01 AM
The best guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a very self-serving history (of sorts) of the early Hebrew people...a relatively unsophisticated, unknowledgeable, superstitious people who had many enemies in the areas where they lived. Their enemies worshiped barbarous, vengeful, wrathful, unforgiving, demanding, murderous, petty gods. And to protect themselves from those gods, they invented an especially barbarous, vengeful, wrathful, unforgiving, demanding, murderous, petty god...and worshiped it.

The best guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a necessary mythology.

I can easily understand why the ancient Hebrews felt about it the way they did. The fact that modern theists feel they way they do about it...is disappointing and disheartening.

Originally the Hebrews worshiped the whole pantheon of Canaanite gods.

kudzu
03-24-2018, 06:18 AM
I'm sorry you believe that, but I have no control over how stupid you can be......

The Hebrews were just a landless tribe of Canaanites.. and as such they were poor relations .. Finally they settled in Jerusalem which was a tiny hilltop village in bandit territory.. They were still poor .. The land was stony and arid.

Look at a map .. Have you heard of the Decapolis? Those towns were more prosperous and cosmopolitan .. (more trade) and they spoke Greek and Aramaic.

kudzu
03-24-2018, 06:22 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapolis

This will show you a map and the names of the 10 cities of the Decapolis.

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 06:39 AM
Originally the Hebrews worshiped the whole pantheon of Canaanite gods.

Probably so.

But that brings up another point: Anyone who sees the Old Testament as being monotheistic...just doesn't understand the word...or the Old Testament.

kudzu
03-24-2018, 06:47 AM
Probably so.

But that brings up another point: Anyone who sees the Old Testament as being monotheistic...just doesn't understand the word...or the Old Testament.

Well, initially God had a wife.. the Queen of Heaven.. That too is Canaanite. Must have lasted a long while because the have found over 4,000 small statutes to Asherah in and around Jerusalem.. She is also a Canaanite goddess from Ras Shamra (Ugarite)

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 06:56 AM
Well, initially God had a wife.. the Queen of Heaven.. That too is Canaanite. Must have lasted a long while because the have found over 4,000 small statutes to Asherah in and around Jerusalem.. She is also a Canaanite goddess from Ras Shamra (Ugarite)

Okay. But there was also the acknowledgement that there were OTHER GODS to worship...and the admonishment not to do so!

kudzu
03-24-2018, 07:04 AM
Okay. But there was also the acknowledgement that there were OTHER GODS to worship...and the admonishment not to do so!

Quite true..

In antiquity all the nomadic Bedouin tribes carried their gods with them in a box on a litter.. Usually a piece of a meteorite.

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 07:26 AM
Originally the Hebrews worshiped the whole pantheon of Canaanite gods.
true.....God told them to quit.....most did.....some never learned.....that's why they ended up in exile in the first place.....

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 07:28 AM
true.....God told them to quit.....most did.....some never learned.....that's why they ended up in exile in the first place.....

I was gonna ask "which god"...but I am pretty sure you mean the one that is not on speaking terms with me.

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 07:29 AM
The Hebrews were just a landless tribe of Canaanites.. and as such they were poor relations .. Finally they settled in Jerusalem which was a tiny hilltop village in bandit territory.. They were still poor .. The land was stony and arid.


at the time the Israelites came from Egypt the land was flowing with milk and honey.....and after they made Jerusalem their capital it became a city.....

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 07:33 AM
Probably so.

But that brings up another point: Anyone who sees the Old Testament as being monotheistic...just doesn't understand the word...or the Old Testament.

????.....what does the part of thou shall have no other gods mean to you?......that its okay to have more than one?......

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 07:34 AM
Well, initially God had a wife.. the Queen of Heaven.. That too is Canaanite. Must have lasted a long while because the have found over 4,000 small statutes to Asherah in and around Jerusalem.. She is also a Canaanite goddess from Ras Shamra (Ugarite)

lol.....

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 07:35 AM
Okay. But there was also the acknowledgement that there were OTHER GODS to worship...and the admonishment not to do so!

that's where the monotheistic part comes in.....

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 07:36 AM
I was gonna ask "which god"...but I am pretty sure you mean the one that is not on speaking terms with me.

/shrugs......that was your choice wasn't it?.....

kudzu
03-24-2018, 07:49 AM
at the time the Israelites came from Egypt the land was flowing with milk and honey.....and after they made Jerusalem their capital it became a city.....

That is nonsense.. Jerusalem has been stony and arid for the past 11,000 years.. And the facts are that anytime there was severe drought and famine people moved their livestock to the Nile Delta.. and they walked back and forth on dry land. Sinai and the hill country of Canaan were under Egyptian rule (at the time of the Exodus)..

There were Egyptian garrisons in Sinai guarding established Canaanite towns that produced pottery .. or were involved in mining and metallurgy. They paid tribute to Pharaoh.

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 07:51 AM
????.....what does the part of thou shall have no other gods mean to you?......that its okay to have more than one?......

Actually, the quote should have been:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" Exodus 20:2

And you are correct, PP.

It does say that one should not worship any of the other gods that exist.

The definition of monotheism, though, is:

the doctrine or belief that there is but one God https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monotheism

As I said...the Bible is NOT monotheistic.

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 07:52 AM
that's where the monotheistic part comes in.....

I answered this above.

Anything else I can explain to you?

kudzu
03-24-2018, 07:52 AM
lol.....

Asherah is identified as the queen consort of the Sumerian god Anu, and Ugaritic El, the oldest deities of their respective pantheons, as well as Yahweh, the god of Israel and Judah.

Have you never studied the Bible seriously?

Archaeologists discover: God's wife? - Archaeology - Haaretz.com

https://www.haaretz.com › Archaeology

Sep 15, 2013 - This is especially true in Jerusalem, which is the corpus I know the best, Darby says. She does not believe however that there is the textual or archaeological evidence that connects these particular terracottas to Asherah, the female deity. The fact is that Judahite pillar figurines were found in two Jerusalem ...

kudzu
03-24-2018, 07:54 AM
Did God have a wife? Asherah Worship in Israel

www.godandscience.org/apologetics/god_have_a_wife.html

Mar 20, 2011 - The recent claim that God had a wife was made by a Francesca Stavrakopoulou, admitted atheist at the Department of Theology and Religion at the University of Exeter. The claim is not new, but was revived in

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 07:56 AM
/shrugs......that was your choice wasn't it?.....

I do not "believe" your god exists...so I could not have initiated that.

I also do not "believe" your god does not exist. (As I've mentioned, I do not do "believing.")

But if it does...I am totally willing to be on speaking terms with it. All it has to do is to let me know it exists...which should be a snap, because you say it "created" the 200+ billions of stars in our galaxy and the 200+ billions of other galaxies.

I'm waitin'.

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 09:35 AM
That is nonsense.. Jerusalem has been stony and arid for the past 11,000 years.. And the facts are that anytime there was severe drought and famine people moved their livestock to the Nile Delta.

true.....Jacob and his children did the same.......


Sinai and the hill country of Canaan were under Egyptian rule (at the time of the Exodus)
and that changed after the Exodus as I recall.....

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 09:39 AM
Actually, the quote should have been:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" Exodus 20:2

And you are correct, PP.

It does say that one should not worship any of the other gods that exist.

The definition of monotheism, though, is:

the doctrine or belief that there is but one God https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monotheism

As I said...the Bible is NOT monotheistic.
thinking that was Israel's biggest fault as well....


Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, 6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting people may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other.


Psalm 86:10
For You are great and do wondrous deeds; You alone are God.


Nehemiah 9:6
"You alone are the LORD You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them You give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You.

2 Kings 19:19

"Now, O LORD our God, I pray, deliver us from his hand that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that You alone, O LORD, are God."

2 Samuel 7:22
"For this reason You are great, O Lord GOD; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears

Deuteronomy 4:39

"Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 09:47 AM
Asherah is identified as the queen consort of the Sumerian god Anu, and Ugaritic El, the oldest deities of their respective pantheons, as well as Yahweh, the god of Israel and Judah.

Have you never studied the Bible seriously?
yes I have.....its just that I never studied Sumerian religions seriously........link me to an authority that says Asherah was the wife of YHWH.....

kudzu
03-24-2018, 09:50 AM
true.....Jacob and his children did the same.......


and that changed after the Exodus as I recall.....

Nope.. Egypt dominated Canaan up thru Joshua and Judges.

kudzu
03-24-2018, 09:54 AM
yes I have.....its just that I never studied Sumerian religions seriously........link me to an authority that says Asherah was the wife of YHWH.....

When archaeologists unearthed a treasure trove of Canaanite stories and other writings in Ugarit, in modern day Syria, they discovered that the mysterious “Asherah” was not an object, but a Goddess: the mother goddess of the Canaanites. When archaeologists discovered Her in Israel as well, a whole new picture of early Hebrew religion began to emerge. The argument is straightforward: 1. Asherah was a known Canaanite Goddess, the Mother Goddess and wife of the Father God. 2. The name is mentioned repeatedly as having been worshiped by the Israelites, to the dismay of monotheists. 3. Her name is found in inscriptions with Yahweh and 4. A mother goddess image is found frequently in the homes of ancient Israel. 5. She was worshiped, according to the Bible, in the woods with Baal AND in Yahweh’s temple. The common sense interpretation is that Israelites worshiped the mother goddess Asherah. And that She was the wife of whichever male God had the upper hand at the time: El, or Baal, or Yahweh. Israelite religion was not much different from Canaanite religion. The gods vied for supremacy, but the goddess remained.

Since archaeologists in the Holy Land tended to be religious and to enter the field of biblical archaeology in order to unearth evidence substantiating the Bible’s story, it has taken awhile for the plain truth to become clear. Gradually, however, more objective archaeologists, such as Dever, are making headway in proving Asherah’s case. The Bible says Hebrews kept worshiping Asherah; the archaeological record confirms it. What the Bible doesn’t say, and the archaeological record shows, is that Asherah was a mother goddess.

In Ugarit, She was known as Athiratu Yammi, She who Treads on the Sea. This suggests She was responsible for ending a time of chaos represented by the primordial sea and beginning the process of creation. The Sea God, or Sea Serpent Yam is the entity upon which She trod. In a particularly bizarre and suggestive passage in the Bible, 2 Kings 18:4, one monotheistic reformer, pursuing the typical course of smashing sacred stones and cutting down Asherahs records this additional fact: He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)

continued with pictures of the clay icons.

https://thequeenofheaven.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/asherah-part-i-the-lost-bride-of-yahweh/

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 09:59 AM
Did God have a wife? Asherah Worship in Israel

www.godandscience.org/apologetics/god_have_a_wife.html

Mar 20, 2011 - The recent claim that God had a wife was made by a Francesca Stavrakopoulou, admitted atheist at the Department of Theology and Religion at the University of Exeter. The claim is not new, but was revived in

you realize the link you provided says that the claim is ridiculous, right?....

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 10:01 AM
I do not "believe" your god exists...so I could not have initiated that.

.
like I said, your choice.....

kudzu
03-24-2018, 10:02 AM
you realize the link you provided says that the claim is ridiculous, right?....

I know what they said.. Watch the video series.. She is brilliant.

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 10:04 AM
Nope.. Egypt dominated Canaan up thru Joshua and Judges.
actually it was the Philistines they were fighting during the era of the Judges......you know, the ones Sampson dropped the house on........
David defeated them.......

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 10:06 AM
I know what they said.. Watch the video series.. She is brilliant.

I watched the first one......had a good laugh.....far from brilliant.....made me wonder where on earth she got her degree......

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 10:06 AM
thinking that was Israel's biggest fault as well....

Yup...I get those quotes you offered that there is only the one god.

But...

“There is none like you among the gods, O Lord” Psalms:86:8

“For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; he is to be revered above all gods” Psalms 96:4

“Our Lord is above all gods” Psalms 135:5

“He is exalted above all gods” Psalms: 97:7



Lots more!

Perhaps the next discussion should be about the fact that there are NO contradictions in the Bible.

kudzu
03-24-2018, 10:07 AM
Drawing on ancient inscriptions that mention “Yahweh and his asherah,” some scholars (notably William Dever in Did God Have a Wife? Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel) have in recent years posited that the ancient Israelites worshipped Asherah and other deities alongside Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament.

....................

The inscriptions found refer not only to Yahweh but to El and Baal, and two include the phrases "Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah" and "Yahweh of Teman and his Asherah."[20] The references to Samaria (capital of the kingdom of Israel) and Teman (in Edom) suggest that Yahweh had a temple in Samaria, while raising questions about the relationship between Yahweh and Kaus, the national god of Edom.[21] The "Asherah" is most likely a cultic object, although the relationship of this object (a stylised tree perhaps) to Yahweh and to the goddess Asherah, consort of El, is unclear.[22] It has been suggested that the Israelites might have considered Asherah as a consort of Baal due to the anti-Asherah ideology which was influenced by the Deuteronomistic History at the later period of Monarchy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 10:09 AM
Yup...I get those quotes you offered that there is only the one god.

But...

“There is none like you among the gods, O Lord” Psalms:86:8

“For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; he is to be revered above all gods” Psalms 96:4

“Our Lord is above all gods” Psalms 135:5

“He is exalted above all gods” Psalms: 97:7



Lots more!

Perhaps the next discussion should be about the fact that there are NO contradictions in the Bible.
anything anyone worships is a god......Watermark worships anime........you worship your dick.......doesn't change the fact there is only one God.......

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 10:10 AM
Drawing on ancient inscriptions that mention “Yahweh and his asherah,” some scholars who are fucking idiots......

.....nuff said......

kudzu
03-24-2018, 10:18 AM
.....nuff said......

Can you do that here? Change someone else's quotes? Is that your Christianity showing itself?

Leonthecat
03-24-2018, 10:18 AM
Man created God in his own image, to placate his ignorance, uncertainty and fears.

kudzu
03-24-2018, 10:42 AM
At the end of Manasseh’s long and successful reign, his son briefly ruled, and then his grandson came to power. Manasseh’s grandson Josiah, who ruled from around 640 to 609 BCE, is the last king I’ll mention in this episode, and, by all rights, one of the most important people in human history.

Why is this so? It’s simple. During the reign of King Josiah, particularly during the 620s, Biblical scholars generally agree that a huge portion of the Old Testament was written.

King Josiah, like his great-grandfather King Hezekiah, believed in the exclusive worship of Yahweh. Like his great-grandfather Hezekiah, Josiah wanted the Jerusalem temple, and not any other place in the kingdom of Judah, to be the site where animal sacrifices were made to Yahweh.

In a general movement that had been growing since the fall of the northern kingdom of Israel, King Josiah wanted the Canaanites to abandon their polytheistic ancestral traditions and bow to a single god. The geography, the historical references, and the anachronisms of the Old Testament all generally suggest that much of it was composed in Jerusalem during the reign of King Josiah. He is spoken of in glowing terms, as a king prophesized to deliver Judah from its wayward tendencies. He is praised more highly than any other king in the Bible, except maybe for David.


http://literatureandhistory.com/index.php/episode-015-canaan

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 10:54 AM
Can I fuck myself here

yes, but please use the NSFW label if you attach pics......

kudzu
03-24-2018, 11:07 AM
The Old Testament is an anthology. It’s an anthology that started coming into being in the historical circumstances we’ve discussed today, in the kingdom of Judah, in the late 600s, in the midst of genocides, and forced relocations, and generations of broken dreams. And so if its worldview seems dark, and if its god appears exacting, or pitiless, and if its condemnations of other nations and ethnicities seem unsettling, then I think history, again, and again, and again, and again, and again is the answer that unlocks most of the questions we have about the Old Testament when we read it for the first time.

The Hebrew Bible isn’t the product of a happy, serene century. A huge amount of it is the product of a deep, multigenerational cauldron of agony and desolation. It’s the stories, poems, and reflections of people who saw their whole way of life facing extinction, and refused to go down.

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 11:31 AM
anything anyone worships is a god......Watermark worships anime........you worship your dick.......

Show some class, PP. It shouldn't be all that difficult for you to do.


...doesn't change the fact there is only one God.......

Thank you for that very interesting blind guess about the REALITY.

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 11:33 AM
Can you do that here? Change someone else's quotes? Is that your Christianity showing itself?

Yeah...you can do it. It IS allowed, for some reason, in this forum. And PP does it often.

It is the kind of thing someone with no ethics or moral compass would do...but, as I said, PP does it often.

kudzu
03-24-2018, 11:36 AM
Yeah...you can do it. It IS allowed, for some reason, in this forum. And PP does it often.

It is the kind of thing someone with no ethics or moral compass would do...but, as I said, PP does it often.

So anything goes.............

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 11:38 AM
So anything goes.............

No...not for people with pride and self-esteem. But for some...they do crap like that.

DO NOT let him lead you into doing the same in return. It's be a victory for him...and there is no way he deserves anything like that.

hypGnosis
03-24-2018, 11:46 AM
I use the NIV.....quit wasting time trot out your evidence or quit posting......

Well, mate, here's how this works out.

“If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!

kudzu
03-24-2018, 12:05 PM
No...not for people with pride and self-esteem. But for some...they do crap like that.

DO NOT let him lead you into doing the same in return. It's be a victory for him...and there is no way he deserves anything like that.

Do the mods tell everyone to "kill yourself"?

Sailor
03-24-2018, 12:21 PM
Do the mods tell everyone to "kill yourself"?

No. Mostly just " Don't fuck up!".

Frank Apisa
03-24-2018, 12:26 PM
Do the mods tell everyone to "kill yourself"?

No...but some of the mods in this forum are among the rudest posters on the Internet.

Apparently they have no pride in the forum at all.

And then they have the audacity to ask us to recruit people to the forum! I donate to the forum, I feel that is the least I can do for any forum where I participate. But I would be embarrassed to recruit anyone to come to this place.

evince
03-24-2018, 12:32 PM
Yeah...you can do it. It IS allowed, for some reason, in this forum. And PP does it often.

It is the kind of thing someone with no ethics or moral compass would do...but, as I said, PP does it often.

Liar lie

and cheat


and go down when the truth catches up to them


the truth has caught up to these Russian sociopaths

evince
03-24-2018, 12:33 PM
No...but some of the mods in this forum are among the rudest posters on the Internet.

Apparently they have no pride in the forum at all.

And then they have the audacity to ask us to recruit people to the forum! I donate to the forum, I feel that is the least I can do for any forum where I participate. But I would be embarrassed to recruit anyone to come to this place.

I never give them money

I bring posters though


talking it out kills their lies

/MSG/
03-24-2018, 12:34 PM
Do the mods tell everyone to "kill yourself"?

I do.

/MSG/
03-24-2018, 12:35 PM
No...but some of the mods in this forum are among the rudest posters on the Internet.

Apparently they have no pride in the forum at all.

And then they have the audacity to ask us to recruit people to the forum! I donate to the forum, I feel that is the least I can do for any forum where I participate. But I would be embarrassed to recruit anyone to come to this place.

Consider killing yourself :)

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 02:59 PM
Well, mate, here's how this works out.

“If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!

as I figured, you're nothing but tofu.......

PostmodernProphet
03-24-2018, 03:01 PM
And then they have the audacity to ask us to recruit people to the forum!

bullshit......no mods asked you to recruit anyone......

Frank Apisa
03-25-2018, 06:52 AM
Please help us spread the word about "Just Plain Politics! - Political Debate Forums." When referring others to the community you can use the link below which includes your own unique referral ID. You will be credited for any referrals brought by using the link.

Each time someone follows this link to Just Plain Politics! - Political Debate Forums and registers as a new member, your referral count will be incremented by one. The total number of referrals you currently have can always be viewed at the top of this box (next to Just Plain Politics! - Political Debate Forums Referrals) as well as in your Profile.

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PostmodernProphet
03-25-2018, 08:29 AM
Please help us spread the word about "Just Plain Politics! - Political Debate Forums." When referring others to the community you can use the link below which includes your own unique referral ID. You will be credited for any referrals brought by using the link.

Each time someone follows this link to Just Plain Politics! - Political Debate Forums and registers as a new member, your referral count will be incremented by one. The total number of referrals you currently have can always be viewed at the top of this box (next to Just Plain Politics! - Political Debate Forums Referrals) as well as in your Profile.

Please be courteous when promoting Just Plain Politics! - Political Debate Forums by not spamming other web sites and/or email addresses with your referral link just to gain referrals, as this will most likely not bring many referrals and may create acrimony, rather than goodwill, towards the site.

lol...."Dear Frank........"

Guno צְבִי
04-21-2018, 02:35 PM
The Bible contains farces that even an act of God cannot explain. After the creation, God asks Adam to look over the animals and find one “suitable” for him (Genesis 2:18-20). The all-knowing god is absolutely clueless as to what kind of partner Adam might desire. Did he not already realize that he was going to make a woman for him? Isn’t it also disgusting for God to propose that Adam should find an animal to be his sexual companion?

Two additional stories in Genesis seem relevant to about every topic we cover: Noah and Babel. During Noah’s flood, God kills almost the entire world population of humans and animals because the people are evil. Why would an omniscient god lack the common sense to get his creation right the first time so that he isn’t required to redo everything? Afterwards, he promises to never do it again because humans are evil (Genesis 8:21). As stated before, God admits that the flood solved nothing. Several years later, groups of people assemble to build a tower so that they can see God in Heaven. Since God doesn’t like this seemingly impossible idea of people spotting him, he confuses their language to cease construction on the tower (Genesis 11:1-8). The people may not have realized that God didn’t actually live on top of a dome over the earth, but God should have been aware of this information for obvious reasons. We’ve looked deep into space with telescopes, but God didn’t stop us on those endeavors. Why would he think that these primitive people could see him? Is this when he moved from the earth’s dome to the outer boundaries of the universe? What about all the other authors who claim to have caught a glimpse of God? The Tower of Babel myth is definitely one of the most absurd stories ever told. Even so, a good portion of the world still ignorantly accepts it as truth. That’s a shame, too.

Later in Genesis, God asks himself if he should hide his plans for destroying Sodom from Abraham (Genesis 18:17). Why would God not know what he’s going to do, and how could Abraham’s knowledge of the matter have any possible outcome on God’s ultimate decision to exercise his infinite power? On the other hand, perhaps God has good reason to worry since we’ve already established that he isn’t all-knowing or all-powerful as the Bible claims.

When God is preparing to go on another murdering spree, he tells the people of Israel to smear blood on their doors so that he’ll know which homes are occupied by his chosen people (Exodus 12:13). With this directive completed, he’s free to kill all the Egyptian firstborn male children without accidentally harming an Israelite, but why does he need blood on the doors to serve as a reminder if he knows everything? Jonah, like Cain before him, was able to leave the presence of God (Jonah 1:3). According to Zephaniah, God will search through Jerusalem with candles and find people who scoff at him (1:12). Why would God need candles to see in the dark? Judges 1:19 says that God was with the men of Judah in a battle, yet they couldn’t drive out the enemies because the other side was riding upon chariots of iron. If God is with someone, shouldn’t this person be able to do the miracles that every other God-accompanied individual performs? Honestly, did authors bother to proofread their work centuries ago?

Fentoine Lum
04-21-2018, 02:39 PM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

Humankind created the notion of a male dominator god.

kudzu
05-07-2018, 08:16 AM
The Bible contains farces that even an act of God cannot explain. After the creation, God asks Adam to look over the animals and find one “suitable” for him (Genesis 2:18-20). The all-knowing god is absolutely clueless as to what kind of partner Adam might desire. Did he not already realize that he was going to make a woman for him? Isn’t it also disgusting for God to propose that Adam should find an animal to be his sexual companion?

Two additional stories in Genesis seem relevant to about every topic we cover: Noah and Babel. During Noah’s flood, God kills almost the entire world population of humans and animals because the people are evil. Why would an omniscient god lack the common sense to get his creation right the first time so that he isn’t required to redo everything? Afterwards, he promises to never do it again because humans are evil (Genesis 8:21). As stated before, God admits that the flood solved nothing. Several years later, groups of people assemble to build a tower so that they can see God in Heaven. Since God doesn’t like this seemingly impossible idea of people spotting him, he confuses their language to cease construction on the tower (Genesis 11:1-8). The people may not have realized that God didn’t actually live on top of a dome over the earth, but God should have been aware of this information for obvious reasons. We’ve looked deep into space with telescopes, but God didn’t stop us on those endeavors. Why would he think that these primitive people could see him? Is this when he moved from the earth’s dome to the outer boundaries of the universe? What about all the other authors who claim to have caught a glimpse of God? The Tower of Babel myth is definitely one of the most absurd stories ever told. Even so, a good portion of the world still ignorantly accepts it as truth. That’s a shame, too.

Later in Genesis, God asks himself if he should hide his plans for destroying Sodom from Abraham (Genesis 18:17). Why would God not know what he’s going to do, and how could Abraham’s knowledge of the matter have any possible outcome on God’s ultimate decision to exercise his infinite power? On the other hand, perhaps God has good reason to worry since we’ve already established that he isn’t all-knowing or all-powerful as the Bible claims.

When God is preparing to go on another murdering spree, he tells the people of Israel to smear blood on their doors so that he’ll know which homes are occupied by his chosen people (Exodus 12:13). With this directive completed, he’s free to kill all the Egyptian firstborn male children without accidentally harming an Israelite, but why does he need blood on the doors to serve as a reminder if he knows everything? Jonah, like Cain before him, was able to leave the presence of God (Jonah 1:3). According to Zephaniah, God will search through Jerusalem with candles and find people who scoff at him (1:12). Why would God need candles to see in the dark? Judges 1:19 says that God was with the men of Judah in a battle, yet they couldn’t drive out the enemies because the other side was riding upon chariots of iron. If God is with someone, shouldn’t this person be able to do the miracles that every other God-accompanied individual performs? Honestly, did authors bother to proofread their work centuries ago?



The tower of Babel myth certainly is dumb.. There were and still are ancient watchtowers all over the ME. I have seen them.. I think they were used to watch for enemies coming from a distance or as signal towers at night.

The tower of Babel story in particular seems to represent the collapse of a civilization into period of illiteracy.

Grugore
06-21-2018, 10:23 AM
Humankind created the notion of a male dominator god.
seriously? Then who created human kind?

Frank Apisa
06-21-2018, 10:32 AM
THE UNIVERSE DOES NOT REQUIRE A CREATOR.

IT MAY BE A CREATION...AND IF IT IS, IT MAY HAVE A "CREATOR."

BUT IT ALSO MAY NOT BE A CREATION...AND HAVE NO CREATOR.

The notion "the universe requires a creator" is an invention of theists who want to posit a "creator" so they can offer their "creator" as that creator.

Give up on this nonsense, because the only people who buy into it are people already convinced "their god" is the "creator" of the universe.

bhaktajan
06-21-2018, 10:48 AM
[B][SIZE=4]THE UNIVERSE DOES NOT REQUIRE ...


LIGHTS UP:
I enter a doctor's office with my daughter and I say, "My daughter requires a therapist ..."

Suddenly Frank Apisa enters and says, YOUR DAUGHTER DOES NOT REQUIRE A THERAPIST!!!!!!!!!!!!


I say, "Who the hell is this guy?"

-THE END-

Cancel 2018.1
06-21-2018, 10:52 AM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

So did a creator create the creator? And who created the creator that created the creator?

bhaktajan
06-21-2018, 10:54 AM
The notion "the universe requires a creator" is an invention of theists


So you're saying you have already studied and progressed through all the academic and spiritual and disciplines and experiences of all the sages ...

And therefore your command of the topic makes you the Pundit?

PANDITA
pandit definition: a Sanskrit word meaning learned master, 1. a Hindu priest 2. a teacher or wise man 3. someone who plays a musical instrument very well.

pandit also known as Guru

bhaktajan
06-21-2018, 11:03 AM
So did a creator create the creator? And who created the creator that created the creator?

A Creator = ???

First was the Creator then comes the Creation.

Without the presence of a Creator there is no use for a Creation.


We are micro Creators ---but are Creations ie: shit, spit, semen, babies are via material facility.

We are tiny souls are Taking repeated births since time immemorial [aka, samsara] and we create the same above elements each time.


The supreme creator is the Original Person.

The original person is aloof from the tiny souls.

We learn over time who our real father is from our mother's mouth ---sometimes our mother had aborted us or was born real poor etc etc ...so we don't seek
the original person that created us. But there is plenty of time passed around for all the souls in the sea of the material creation.

bhaktajan
06-21-2018, 11:08 AM
And who created the creator that created the creator?

In the Beginning was the Person ---and from him came all personal opulences--- with him in the center as the wellspring.

We are all part and parcel spirit-soul sparks of the wellspring of Godhead's Personage.

Here in the material cosmos we are jettisoned to seek re-union [literally aka: Yoga] with him ... or we seek to be king of the hill where ever we can.

It's an eternal pastime on either path.

Cancel 2018.1
06-21-2018, 11:25 AM
A Creator = ???

First was the Creator then comes the Creation.I thought it was physically impossible to appear from nothing.

Funny, I'm in the middle of reading The Ancestor's Tale by the acclaimed atheist and evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins. Seriously cool book!

Fentoine Lum
06-21-2018, 11:26 AM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

Thanks, but I have no desire of embracing a male dominator god perceptual reality.

Frank Apisa
06-21-2018, 12:33 PM
So you're saying you have already studied and progressed through all the academic and spiritual and disciplines and experiences of all the sages ...

And therefore your command of the topic makes you the Pundit?

PANDITA
pandit definition: a Sanskrit word meaning learned master, 1. a Hindu priest 2. a teacher or wise man 3. someone who plays a musical instrument very well.

pandit also known as Guru

YOU, my friend...are...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/2/2e/LooneyTunesWallpaper1024.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161219153020

Leonthecat
06-21-2018, 12:39 PM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

The universe does not need you or a magical, imaginary being.
Take you magical circular logic somewhere else.

Leonthecat
06-21-2018, 12:41 PM
So did a creator create the creator? And who created the creator that created the creator?

Magical thinking retards.

Leonthecat
06-21-2018, 12:47 PM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

Supernatural magical beings are scientific impossibilities.
You are insane if you believe they are not impossible.

Frank Apisa
06-21-2018, 01:13 PM
Supernatural magical beings are scientific impossibilities.
You are insane if you believe they are not impossible.

The universe DOES NOT REQUIRE A CREATOR.

That is NOT saying that the universe DOES NOT HAVE A CREATOR.

The assertion, "There is a creator"...is nothing but a blind guess.

The assertion, "There is no creator"...is every bit as much a blind guess.

Irish Exit
06-21-2018, 05:53 PM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

Then you would have to show who created the creator to justify your premise.

Grugore
06-23-2018, 10:58 AM
Then you would have to show who created the creator to justify your premise.

No one created God. He has always existed. Of course, you know this already. You're simply playing the fool.

Grugore
06-23-2018, 11:03 AM
Supernatural magical beings are scientific impossibilities.
You are insane if you believe they are not impossible.

LOL! GOD created the physical constants, which is why science is even possible. So yes. God is a scientific impossibility because it cannot encompass His greatness.

Leonthecat
06-23-2018, 11:07 AM
LOL! GOD created the physical constants, which is why science is even possible. So yes. God is a scientific impossibility because it cannot encompass His greatness.

More superstitious circular logic from an insane person.

Grugore
06-23-2018, 11:19 AM
More superstitious circular logic from an insane person.

So, you believe that the universe created itself? Talk about insane.

Irish Exit
06-23-2018, 01:22 PM
No one created God. He has always existed. Of course, you know this already. You're simply playing the fool.

Nothing in science could support such a conclusion.

bhaktajan
06-23-2018, 01:26 PM
Yes!!!...yet we are familiar with the opposite!

There IS NO GOD ---but how familiar are we (enough?) of the ABSOLUTE REALITY OF THE MYTH OF GOD.

We have seen the power and majesty and prowess par excellence of Demonic Satans galore!

And he always causes things to topple into chaos and sufferring and confusion and insanity as de rigueur.



YOU, my friend...are...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/2/2e/LooneyTunesWallpaper1024.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161219153020

We are not Gurus unless we stand on the shoulders of those that went before us.

We know what to fear because we are taught it first.

We know who our real father is because our mother told us ---thus begins each lot in life, borne to the Manor or a Hovel onward to gaining more knowledge and ideally to yield good Karmic results.

There are 3 ways to check if something is true:
1. Guru - Mentor
2. Sadhu - expert colleagues of the Mentor
3. Sastra - the texts

aka

1. Your Lawyer/Doctor/Plumber/Mechanic - Mentor
2. Other Lawyers/Doctors/Plumbers/Mechanics - expert colleagues of the Mentor
3. Codes & Manuals & Laws used by Lawyers/Doctors/Plumbers/Mechanics - the texts

The alarming note is that we are souls in a vast ocean, a vast ocean of the material cosmos
---therefore we are tiny and lost and powerless, and worse, as tiny individual spirit souls, we each live
here in a conscious body, which we are conditioned by, conditioned by the laws of nature and [B]again worse still ...
we each commonly exhibit four defects:

The first defect is we must commit mistakes.
The second defect is we are easily illusioned [aka mental].
The third defect is the cheating propensity.
The forth defect is our senses are imperfect. We are very proud of our eyes. If immediately the room becomes dark, you cannot even see your hands.

again worse still ...

There are the three-fold Miseries that cannot be escaped from:

1. miseries inflicted by other living entities.

2. natural disturbances caused by the demigods.

3. miseries caused by one’s own body and mind.



PS: So the rat race is all about raising above good & bad karma.
But without a single-minded intent and and a “proof is in the tasting of the pudding" approach,
we can’t find the absolute personality of Godhead.

We'd have to search him out … and suppose that He will bestow as much grace as you truly ask for.
We are on our own recognizance. We are in an ocean. We seek the repose of other persons.
So why not seek out the Supreme Person?
Only envy and colossal ignorant bad-luck can cause on to miss the target.

And time only exists here in the manifest material world. In the abode of Godhead time does not manifest.

Grugore
06-23-2018, 01:58 PM
Nothing in science could support such a conclusion.

But science does support the law of causality. Which means that nothing physical can create itself. That leaves only one other possibility. The Universe was created. The conclusion is inescapable.

Irish Exit
06-23-2018, 03:02 PM
But science does support the law of causality. Which means that nothing physical can create itself. That leaves only one other possibility. The Universe was created. The conclusion is inescapable.

Except that isn't the only other possibility. You indicated that god is infinite and without a creator, then likewise the universe could be infinite without a creator.

Grugore
06-23-2018, 03:34 PM
Except that isn't the only other possibility. You indicated that god is infinite and without a creator, then likewise the universe could be infinite without a creator.

Your total lack of any kind of scientific understanding is astounding. The universe cannot be eternal. It's a scientific impossbility. Do you know why?

Mott the Hoople
06-23-2018, 03:37 PM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.
You’re understanding of the law of conservation lacks something to be desired and your argument is absurd. Now that doesn’t exclude the possibility of a creator it just means the logic used to draw your conclusion is idiotic.

Mott the Hoople
06-23-2018, 03:47 PM
But science does support the law of causality. Which means that nothing physical can create itself. That leaves only one other possibility. The Universe was created. The conclusion is inescapable.

Utterly absurd. Nature creates physical phenomena all the time. In fact it does so constantly.

Irish Exit
06-23-2018, 03:47 PM
Your total lack of any kind of scientific understanding is astounding.

Says the person who has offered no science who thinks because they want there to be a creator, there is a creator.



The universe cannot be eternal.

Sure it can. Time is a human construct.



It's a scientific impossbility.

There are a lot of physicists who disagree with you: https://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html




Do you know why?


I know lots of things, including that you don't "know" anything in this regard.

Frank Apisa
06-23-2018, 03:50 PM
Yes!!!...yet we are familiar with the opposite!

There IS NO GOD ---but how familiar are we (enough?) of the ABSOLUTE REALITY OF THE MYTH OF GOD.

We have seen the power and majesty and prowess par excellence of Demonic Satans galore!

And he always causes things to topple into chaos and sufferring and confusion and insanity as de rigueur.




We are not Gurus unless we stand on the shoulders of those that went before us.

We know what to fear because we are taught it first.

We know who our real father is because our mother told us ---thus begins each lot in life, borne to the Manor or a Hovel onward to gaining more knowledge and ideally to yield good Karmic results.

There are 3 ways to check if something is true:
1. Guru - Mentor
2. Sadhu - expert colleagues of the Mentor
3. Sastra - the texts

aka

1. Your Lawyer/Doctor/Plumber/Mechanic - Mentor
2. Other Lawyers/Doctors/Plumbers/Mechanics - expert colleagues of the Mentor
3. Codes & Manuals & Laws used by Lawyers/Doctors/Plumbers/Mechanics - the texts

The alarming note is that we are souls in a vast ocean, a vast ocean of the material cosmos
---therefore we are tiny and lost and powerless, and worse, as tiny individual spirit souls, we each live
here in a conscious body, which we are conditioned by, conditioned by the laws of nature and [B]again worse still ...
we each commonly exhibit four defects:

The first defect is we must commit mistakes.
The second defect is we are easily illusioned [aka mental].
The third defect is the cheating propensity.
The forth defect is our senses are imperfect. We are very proud of our eyes. If immediately the room becomes dark, you cannot even see your hands.

again worse still ...

There are the three-fold Miseries that cannot be escaped from:

1. miseries inflicted by other living entities.

2. natural disturbances caused by the demigods.

3. miseries caused by one’s own body and mind.



PS: So the rat race is all about raising above good & bad karma.
But without a single-minded intent and and a “proof is in the tasting of the pudding" approach,
we can’t find the absolute personality of Godhead.

We'd have to search him out … and suppose that He will bestow as much grace as you truly ask for.
We are on our own recognizance. We are in an ocean. We seek the repose of other persons.
So why not seek out the Supreme Person?
Only envy and colossal ignorant bad-luck can cause on to miss the target.

And time only exists here in the manifest material world. In the abode of Godhead time does not manifest.

https://whatscookingamerica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Fruitcake2.jpg

Frank Apisa
06-23-2018, 03:53 PM
But science does support the law of causality. Which means that nothing physical can create itself. That leaves only one other possibility. The Universe was created. The conclusion is inescapable.

Ummmm...how about, "Therefore the universe is NOT physical?"

Your god supposedly is not physical. But you claim it is something that exists.

Perhaps "the universe" is NOT physical...but always has existed.

Said another way:

Give it a break. The universe DOES NOT REQUIRE a creator.

Perhaps it has one...perhaps not.

Grugore
06-24-2018, 07:44 AM
There are a lot of physicists who disagree with you: https://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html
.
A mathematical theory. Let's take a look at reality. Even if this theory is correct, where did the physical laws that would allow all of this come from? They say that the universe has always existed, yet they deny the possibility of an eternal Creator. No matter what theories they come up with, they cannot account for the existence of anything without a Creator. So they cheat by saying that the universe has always existed. Yeah. Ight. Lol!

Frank Apisa
06-24-2018, 11:07 AM
A mathematical theory. Let's take a look at reality. Even if this theory is correct, where did the physical laws that would allow all of this come from? They say that the universe has always existed, yet they deny the possibility of an eternal Creator. No matter what theories they come up with, they cannot account for the existence of anything without a Creator. So they cheat by saying that the universe has always existed. Yeah. Ight. Lol!

Most people with a brain say...they do not know.

There MAY BE a creator.

There MAY BE no creator or creators.

How some jerks can posit a god that always existed...but say that the universe could not always have existed...

...is beyond me.

bhaktajan
06-27-2018, 09:04 AM
https://whatscookingamerica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Fruitcake2.jpg

Which brings us back to a creator.

Apparently Franky remembers all those old women that brought over fruitcakes.

Some sort of Oedipus complex?

But there must be a corollary here.

Frank Apisa
06-27-2018, 09:18 AM
Which brings us back to a creator.

Apparently Franky remembers all those old women that brought over fruitcakes.

Some sort of Oedipus complex?

But there must be a corollary here.


"Corollary" this!

https://cdn.albanesecandy.com/candy-store/images/products/popup/deluxe-mixed-nuts-roasted-and-no-salt.jpg

bhaktajan
06-27-2018, 09:52 AM
Frank, those are seeds?

Ya know seeds that must be planted in mother earth to yield enjoyment and well "Being"

The seed emitter is crazy?

You know who said "I am the seed-giving father."?

"It should be understood that all species of life are made possible by birth in this material nature,
and that I am the seed-giving father." [Krishna said to Arjuna in the Bg 14.4]

the living entities, being impregnated in the material world, come out and form at the time of creation according to their past deeds.

Frank Apisa
06-27-2018, 10:03 AM
Frank, those are seeds?

They are nuts...as some of the theists here are "NUTS."




Ya know seeds that must be planted in mother earth to yield enjoyment and well "Being"

The seed emitter is crazy?

You know who said "I am the seed-giving father."?

"It should be understood that all species of life are made possible by birth in this material nature,
and that I am the seed-giving father." [Krishna said to Arjuna in the Bg 14.4]

the living entities, being impregnated in the material world, come out and form at the time of creation according to their past deeds.

Mares dotes and doesy dotes and liddle lambsy divey.

bhaktajan
06-27-2018, 10:07 AM
They are nuts...as some of the theists here are "NUTS."

Mares dotes and doesy dotes and liddle lambsy divey.

Sorry Frank but you never learned about the Birds and the seeds.

Frank Apisa
06-27-2018, 10:21 AM
Sorry Frank but you never learned about the Birds and the seeds.

BIRDS

https://animalsfacts.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/d6eaef91aae6efa3a9643a12e5b2a7cc-pretty-birds-beautiful-birds.jpg

SEEDS

https://earthjustice.org/sites/default/files/styles/image_800x600/public/seeds_shutterstock_JoHo.jpg?itok=YIPi6J08


SOMETHING ELSE!

https://wflatheism.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/11887905_936893763051776_6454766490947187258_n.png ?w=960&h=568&crop=1

Leonthecat
06-27-2018, 10:27 AM
They are nuts...as some of the theists here are "NUTS."

Insanity is required to actually believe in imaginary supernatural beings.
This is a mental health issue.

bhaktajan
06-27-2018, 12:59 PM
They are nuts...as some of the theists here are "NUTS."

Mares dotes and doesy dotes and liddle lambsy divey.

Every communist country has Universities with Economics Professors.
Every third world country has Universities with Economics Professors.

But you Frank have not revealed the years and years of Research that you have gone through to arrive at your pronouncements.

Just because a bunch of birds tweet doesn't prove that you are an Intellectual.

Frank you are not an Intellectual.

You "think" that you can post your opinion and then think You are an intellectual.

Being an Intellectual usually means you can progress the conversation along, or publish a book, or be sought out for council or for guidance.

You are just a lethargic blogger.

I blog therefore I am!

bhaktajan
06-27-2018, 01:09 PM
Here is a maxim:

We live in a creation that is composed of DUALITY...ying/yang; up/down; light/dark; front/back; male/female; heads/tails; rich/poor ...one accompanies the other and never to found apart from each other aka you can't have one without the other...

thus the maxim: AFTER DEATH, COMES LIFE again; AFTER BIRTH, DEATH COMES again.

When you die Frank the opposite state will occur ... and the cycle of duality leaves you no place to hide.

I am Hindu. Hinduism knows all about real atheism.

Ya'll don't know nothing about real atheism.

ya'll only know about thing-ism.

Take care of your "Stuff"

bhaktajan
06-27-2018, 01:17 PM
Insanity is required to actually believe in imaginary supernatural beings.
This is a mental health issue.

Insanity is when normal folks become POSSESSED by the Astral body of a person that died suddenly...where the Astral body of the recent deceased seeks to engage the gross world via POSSESSION of a living person.

The factors that allow for POSSESSION of a living person's bodily conscience actions is WHEN A person is weak-willed, highly intoxicated and in a state of quasi-deep sleep is when a person can be inhabited by a Ghost.

Ghosts are Astral bodies (mind-intelligence-false ego; ~aka respectively, manas-budhi-ahankara) that have been stripped of their gross body (earth-water-fire-air-ether) before their natural death occurred.

IE: A bomb blast etc will leave one standing and "thinking & willing" after their gross body is evaporated in a flash.

The problem with dis-embodied astral bodies is lack of physical means to carry out any activities.

---until they fad-away to take a new birth appropo to the Karma (karma-phalam - fruits of works) accrued.

bhaktajan
06-27-2018, 01:24 PM
There is a always a personality behind the scene:

"The God is a Person Principle"
(or "Why Atheistic Philosophers can't deny that there is always a personality behind the scene"):

Q. Who is the personification of the American Dollar Bill?
A. George Washington.

Q. Who is the Living Personification of the American Dollar Bill?
A. Donald Trump.

Q. Who is the personification of the State of New York'?
A. The Governor (Mr. Coumo)

Q. Who is the personification of one of the many regional Counties of New York State?
A. The County Executive.

Q. Who is the personification of one of the many Congressional Districts of New York State?
A. The Congressman/State Representative.

Q. Who is the personification of New York City?
A. The Mayor (Mr. Deblasio).

Q. Who is the personification of one of the many Districts of New York City?
A. The Councilman/Ombudsman.

Q. Who is the personification of any 'Block and Lot' tax-parcel of land?
A. The title barer (The Land owner).

Q. Who is the personification of the any Apartment building?
A. "The Landlord".

Q. Who is the personification of any apartment?
A. The tenant.

Q. Who is the personification of the room with the football and the many toy Trains?
A. One of the male children.

Q. Who is the personification of nursery room?
A. The Baby.

The point of my illustration is:
"Without the presence of the persona, all paraphernalia is without meaning nor purpose for existing"

=============================

So Frank, if you haven't done the research why do you proselytize?

If Frank's research efforts turn up nothing of worth ---why base other's world as something you know about?

Frank Apisa
06-27-2018, 01:25 PM
Every communist country has Universities with Economics Professors.
Every third world country has Universities with Economics Professors.

But you Frank have not revealed the years and years of Research that you have gone through to arrive at your pronouncements.

Just because a bunch of birds tweet doesn't prove that you are an Intellectual.

Frank you are not an Intellectual.

You "think" that you can post your opinion and then think You are an intellectual.

Being an Intellectual usually means you can progress the conversation along, or publish a book, or be sought out for council or for guidance.

You are just a lethargic blogger.

I blog therefore I am!

I have never suggested that I am an intellectual...although I suspect I am a shitload closer to being an intellectual than you.

BUT...I have never suggested in any way that I am an intellectual. This is a red herring.

I am not a lethargic blogger...I am an aware, awake poster in an Internet forum.

Frank Apisa
06-27-2018, 01:29 PM
Here is a maxim:

We live in a creation that is composed of DUALITY...ying/yang; up/down; light/dark; front/back; male/female; heads/tails; rich/poor ...one accompanies the other and never to found apart from each other aka you can't have one without the other...

thus the maxim: AFTER DEATH, COMES LIFE again; AFTER BIRTH, DEATH COMES again.

When you die Frank the opposite state will occur ... and the cycle of duality leaves you no place to hide.

Thank you for sharing your blind guesses about what the REALITY is.




I am Hindu. Hinduism knows all about real atheism.

Ya'll don't know nothing about real atheism.

I am not an atheist...in any way.

Most people, including most atheists, do not know what "real atheism" is...because it is a word with many different and disparate definitions.

You as a Hindu...are full of shit if you think you know more than the rest because of your Hinduism.




ya'll only know about thing-ism.

Take care of your "Stuff"

You are more full of shit than most "theists" on the Internet.

Do you have a doctorate in "Full of shit?"

Frank Apisa
06-27-2018, 01:31 PM
Insanity is when normal folks become POSSESSED by the Astral body of a person that died suddenly...where the Astral body of the recent deceased seeks to engage the gross world via POSSESSION of a living person.

The factors that allow for POSSESSION of a living person's bodily conscience actions is WHEN A person is weak-willed, highly intoxicated and in a state of quasi-deep sleep is when a person can be inhabited by a Ghost.

Ghosts are Astral bodies (mind-intelligence-false ego; ~aka respectively, manas-budhi-ahankara) that have been stripped of their gross body (earth-water-fire-air-ether) before their natural death occurred.

IE: A bomb blast etc will leave one standing and "thinking & willing" after their gross body is evaporated in a flash.

The problem with dis-embodied astral bodies is lack of physical means to carry out any activities.

---until they fad-away to take a new birth appropo to the Karma (karma-phalam - fruits of works) accrued.

I thank you for sharing even more of your blind guesses about REALITY.

You are full of blind guesses.

Frank Apisa
06-27-2018, 01:31 PM
There is a always a personality behind the scene:

"The God is a Person Principle"
(or "Why Atheistic Philosophers can't deny that there is always a personality behind the scene"):

Q. Who is the personification of the American Dollar Bill?
A. George Washington.

Q. Who is the Living Personification of the American Dollar Bill?
A. Donald Trump.

Q. Who is the personification of the State of New York'?
A. The Governor (Mr. Coumo)

Q. Who is the personification of one of the many regional Counties of New York State?
A. The County Executive.

Q. Who is the personification of one of the many Congressional Districts of New York State?
A. The Congressman/State Representative.

Q. Who is the personification of New York City?
A. The Mayor (Mr. Deblasio).

Q. Who is the personification of one of the many Districts of New York City?
A. The Councilman/Ombudsman.

Q. Who is the personification of any 'Block and Lot' tax-parcel of land?
A. The title barer (The Land owner).

Q. Who is the personification of the any Apartment building?
A. "The Landlord".

Q. Who is the personification of any apartment?
A. The tenant.

Q. Who is the personification of the room with the football and the many toy Trains?
A. One of the male children.

Q. Who is the personification of nursery room?
A. The Baby.

The point of my illustration is:
"Without the presence of the persona, all paraphernalia is without meaning nor purpose for existing"

=============================

So Frank, if you haven't done the research why do you proselytize?

If Frank's research efforts turn up nothing of worth ---why base other's world as something you know about?

What the hell are you blathering about?

bhaktajan
06-27-2018, 03:25 PM
I thank you for sharing even more of your blind guesses about REALITY.

You are full of blind guesses.

You absolute dumb ass!

Stop replying to my posts!

I quote authority. You are not learnt in anything!

I am embarrassed by you. Ya'll aint got no game. Get off the court.

Flipping ignorant twat.

Frank Apisa
06-27-2018, 04:08 PM
You absolute dumb ass!

Stop replying to my posts!

You gotta be fucking kidding me.

Here I am paying you the courtesy to reply to your drivel...and you are asking me to stop.

No way, Jose.



I quote authority. You are not learnt in anything!

I am "learnt" enough to know you are not quoting authority.

You are pushing your blind guesses about the REALITY of existence.

I have no problem with that...but your blind guesses are still just blind guesses...not "authority."


I am embarrassed by you.

I didn't mean to embarrass you. I meant to correct you.

Stop being embarrassed.



Ya'll aint got no game. Get off the court.

You still haven't got that street talk down pat. Put a bit more practice into it...and maybe, just maybe, some day it will work.



Flipping ignorant twat.

No you are not.

You are just mistaken.

Stop being so hard on yourself.

Perhaps you ought to try this nonsense on someone a bit less prepared than I. You gotta crawl before you can do a triathlon.

K?

Leonthecat
06-27-2018, 09:18 PM
Insanity is when normal folks become POSSESSED by the Astral body of a person that died suddenly...where the Astral body of the recent deceased seeks to engage the gross world via POSSESSION of a living person.

The factors that allow for POSSESSION of a living person's bodily conscience actions is WHEN A person is weak-willed, highly intoxicated and in a state of quasi-deep sleep is when a person can be inhabited by a Ghost.

Ghosts are Astral bodies (mind-intelligence-false ego; ~aka respectively, manas-budhi-ahankara) that have been stripped of their gross body (earth-water-fire-air-ether) before their natural death occurred.

IE: A bomb blast etc will leave one standing and "thinking & willing" after their gross body is evaporated in a flash.

The problem with dis-embodied astral bodies is lack of physical means to carry out any activities.

---until they fad-away to take a new birth appropo to the Karma (karma-phalam - fruits of works) accrued.

^^^^^^^^^^Proof positive that you are completely insane. Thank you.

bhaktajan
06-28-2018, 08:16 PM
Running scared from your biography:

THE SHIP OF FOOLS

Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain
who is taller and stronger than any of the crew,
but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight,
and his knowledge of navigation is not much better.

The sailors are quarreling with one another about the steering––
every one is of the opinion that he has a right to steer,
though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned,
and will further assert that it cannot be taught,
and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary.
They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them;
and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them,
they kill the others or throw them overboard,
and having first chained up the noble captain's senses with drink or some narcotic drug,
they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores;
thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them.
Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out
of the captain's hands into their own whether by force or persuasion,
they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man,
whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year
and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art,
if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer,
whether other people like or not––the possibility of this union of authority with
the steerer's art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling.
Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers,
how will the true pilot be regarded?
Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing?

The ship of fools, from Book VI of Plato's Republic, about a ship with a dysfunctional crew --

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_fools

Grugore
06-29-2018, 06:52 PM
Still waiting for someone explain how the universe created itself, in violation of the law of causality.

domer76
06-29-2018, 07:20 PM
Still waiting for someone explain how the universe created itself, in violation of the law of causality.

Your "god has always existed" is the primary violation of that law.

evince
06-29-2018, 07:32 PM
Still waiting for someone explain how the universe created itself, in violation of the law of causality.

it didn't idiot

Grugore
06-29-2018, 09:03 PM
it didn't idiot

That means that it was created. Glad you agree.

Fentoine Lum
06-29-2018, 09:05 PM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

"I would suggest everyone of European descendency...go and study your tribal ancestry and see how you got civilized."

Frank Apisa
06-30-2018, 03:52 AM
Still waiting for someone explain how the universe created itself, in violation of the law of causality.

No one has said the universe created itself.

The UNIVERSE...may always have existed.

But your need to kiss your god's ass won't allow you to even consider that possibility.

Nordberg
06-30-2018, 09:11 AM
There was no time before the big bang. The time/space continuum wraps both into it. The universe does not require a god to start it. That just adds another complexity to it. One that is created by religious people. God did not create man. man created god. lots of them. many societies created lots of them.

Grugore
06-30-2018, 10:32 AM
There was no time before the big bang. The time/space continuum wraps both into it. The universe does not require a god to start it. That just adds another complexity to it. One that is created by religious people. God did not create man. man created god. lots of them. many societies created lots of them.

Nothing physical can create itself. The universe is physical. It had a Creator. End of argument. Unless you can show me how something can create itself from nothing, then it requires a Creator.

evince
06-30-2018, 10:33 AM
Nothing physical can create itself. The universe is physical. It had a Creator. End of argument. Unless you can show me how something can create itself from nothing, then it requires a Creator.

NO ONE SAID IT CREATED ITS SELF YOU LIAR

Grugore
06-30-2018, 10:37 AM
NO ONE SAID IT CREATED ITS SELF YOU LIAR

If it did not create itself, then it was created. Once again, you agree with me.

Frank Apisa
06-30-2018, 02:24 PM
Nothing physical can create itself. The universe is physical. It had a Creator. End of argument. Unless you can show me how something can create itself from nothing, then it requires a Creator.

And no one said it is physical either.

Lots of people have supposed that it is NOT...including many physicists.

But, I understand. You have got to kiss your god's ass...or bad, bad things will happen to you.

So...go on...KISS.

domer76
06-30-2018, 03:58 PM
Nothing physical can create itself. The universe is physical. It had a Creator. End of argument. Unless you can show me how something can create itself from nothing, then it requires a Creator.

The concept of your creator violates the very law you refer to.

Keep flailing.

Grugore
06-30-2018, 04:03 PM
NO ONE SAID IT CREATED ITS SELF YOU LIAR

Actually, that is exactly what Stephen Hawking said. Do try to keep up.

bhaktajan
06-30-2018, 04:24 PM
The concept of your creator violates the very law you refer to.



The equation you presuppose is reversed.

The creation emanates from PERSONA.


PERSONA can create myriads of form.

The Supreme form is the Originating truth of creation: PERSONA.


Before the elements divided and the Sun shined and trillions of souls rise and fall and time marches on etc etc THERE WAS A SINGLE "PERSONA".

"PERSONA" is not a back seat driver in creation.

bhaktajan
06-30-2018, 04:28 PM
Still waiting for someone explain how the universe created itself, in violation of the law of causality.

Because it was a "PERSONA" present.

"PERSONA" predates variegated recipe transmutations aka Periodic Table of Elements, time, space, dharma etal.

domer76
06-30-2018, 06:17 PM
The equation you presuppose is reversed.

The creation emanates for PERSONA.


PERSONA can create myriads of form.

The Supreme form is the Originating truth of creation: PERSONA.


Before the elements divided and the Sun shined and trillions of souls rise and fall and time marches on etc etc THERE WAS A SINGLE "PERSONA".

"PERSONA" is not a back seat driver in creation.

Where do you pick up such goofy shit?

bhaktajan
06-30-2018, 06:38 PM
Where do you pick up such goofy shit?

I got it by listening to the Vaishnava Brahmanas of Bharata varsha

aka

I got it by listening to the theistic Brahmins of India

bhaktajan
06-30-2018, 06:41 PM
Where do you pick up such goofy shit?

You learnt everything you know about goofy stool from Walt Disney cartoons! Am I right?

Gotcha68
06-30-2018, 08:21 PM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

Everything requires a creator except for our imaginary friend. It has always existed. :awesome:

Alter2Ego
06-30-2018, 08:36 PM
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.

Well said, Grugore.

But not only does everything physical require a creator, the same is true for everything that had a beginning--including things that are invisible to the human eye such as the air we breathe.

The precision in our fine-tuned universe is evidence of the Divine Creator, Almighty God Jehovah.


Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Alter2Ego
06-30-2018, 08:51 PM
There was no time before the big bang. The time/space continuum wraps both into it. The universe does not require a god to start it. That just adds another complexity to it. One that is created by religious people. God did not create man. man created god. lots of them. many societies created lots of them.

Nordberg:

Why? Because you say so? I challenge you to present even one example of ANYTHING complex that created itself.


Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Alter2Ego
06-30-2018, 08:55 PM
No one has said the universe created itself.

The UNIVERSE...may always have existed.

But your need to kiss your god's ass won't allow you to even consider that possibility.

Frank Apisa:

There is scientific evidence that the universe had a beginning.


Science Supports that
. . . the Universe had a Beginning
(Discoveries made between the 1920s to 2003)
Section One

In the 1920s, scientists began to obtain data that supports the universe had a beginning or that the universe was created. The supporting evidence for these conclusions comes from web sites at NASA, Harvard, Berkeley and others. This information is simplified into five general subjects on this page as shown a few paragraphs below.
http://www.harvardhouse.com/universe_began.htm


Of course in their arrogance, atheists in academia try to talk their way around Jehovah's creatorship by claiming the universe is the result of the supposed Big Bang Theory.

The Big Bang

Astronomers combine mathematical models with observations to develop workable theories of how the Universe came to be
https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-powered-the-big-bang


When asked to explain how the Big Bang could result in precision, not one single scientist in academia can provide an intelligent answer.

By the way, notice that I quoted from sources that are considered credible scientific sources, including NASA, both of which confirm that the universe had a beginning. So your above speculation, in which you inserted the word "MAY," is proof positive that you have nothing to present here, except your personal philosophy that, to quote you: "The UNIVERSE...may always have existed." Nonsense!


Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

domer76
06-30-2018, 09:49 PM
Well said, Grugore.

But not only does everything physical require a creator, the same is true for everything that had a beginning--including things that are invisible to the human eye such as the air we breathe.

The precision in our fine-tuned universe is evidence of the Divine Creator, Almighty God Jehovah.


Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

So, your god had no beginning?

Who told you that goofy shit?

domer76
06-30-2018, 09:52 PM
Frank Apisa:

There is scientific evidence that the universe had a beginning.


http://www.harvardhouse.com/universe_began.htm


Of course in their arrogance, atheists in academia try to talk their way around Jehovah's creatorship by claiming the universe is the result of the supposed Big Bang Theory.

https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-powered-the-big-bang


When asked to explain how the Big Bang could result in precision, not one single scientist in academia can provide an intelligent answer.

By the way, notice that I quoted from sources that are considered credible scientific sources, including NASA, both of which confirm that the universe had a beginning. So your above speculation, in which you inserted the word "MAY," is proof positive that you have nothing to present here, except your personal philosophy that, to quote you: "The UNIVERSE...may always have existed." Nonsense!


Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Nope, they don't "try to talk their way around Jehovah's creatorship". They ignore it because it has no relevance.

Fentoine Lum
07-01-2018, 12:36 AM
So, your god had no beginning?

Who told you that goofy shit?

Men.

Fentoine Lum
07-01-2018, 12:38 AM
Well said, Grugore.

But not only does everything physical require a creator, the same is true for everything that had a beginning--including things that are invisible to the human eye such as the air we breathe.

The precision in our fine-tuned universe is evidence of the Divine Creator, Almighty God Jehovah.


Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Not a devotee of a male dominator god perceptual reality.

Frank Apisa
07-01-2018, 02:08 AM
Frank Apisa:

There is scientific evidence that the universe had a beginning.


http://www.harvardhouse.com/universe_began.htm


Of course in their arrogance, atheists in academia try to talk their way around Jehovah's creatorship by claiming the universe is the result of the supposed Big Bang Theory.

https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-powered-the-big-bang


When asked to explain how the Big Bang could result in precision, not one single scientist in academia can provide an intelligent answer.

By the way, notice that I quoted from sources that are considered credible scientific sources, including NASA, both of which confirm that the universe had a beginning. So your above speculation, in which you inserted the word "MAY," is proof positive that you have nothing to present here, except your personal philosophy that, to quote you: "The UNIVERSE...may always have existed." Nonsense!


Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

There is scientific evidence that THE THING WE HUMANS CALL THE UNIVERSE...had a beginning. There is absolutely no scientific evidence that what we humans call the universe...IS ACTUALLY ALL THERE IS.

This thing we humans call the universe...may be just a tiny part of the actual UNIVERSE...and the UNIVERSE may ALWAYS HAVE EXISTED.

It is not certain that it has...but there is a possibility that it has.

I appreciate your blind guess that there is a god responsible for "the universe"...just as I appreciate the blind guesses of others who blindly guess that there are no gods.

Now...if you people would all grow up and acknowledge that all you are doing is blindly guessing, the world would probably a nicer place.

Grugore
07-01-2018, 09:35 AM
Not a devotee of a male dominator god perceptual reality.

Nor, it appears, a devotee of common sense. And what's this nonsense about a male dominator God. My God is a loving God. HE LOVED US, WHEN WE DESERVED ONLY DEATH. And he sent His only Son to suffer that death for us. You are under a sentence of death. There is an easy way to avoid that death. But your pride will not allow you to accept it. You fool.

evince
07-01-2018, 09:38 AM
Nor, it appears, a devotee of common sense. And what's this nonsense about a male dominator God. My God is a loving God. HE LOVED US, WHEN WE DESERVED ONLY DEATH. And he sent His only Son to suffer that death for us. You are under a sentence of death. There is an easy way to avoid that death. But your pride will not allow you to accept it. You fool.

we needed to die for what reason?


how did Jesus being killed by his father fix anything?

evince
07-01-2018, 09:39 AM
what is with all this father killing son stuff in the bible

its sounds evil

Grugore
07-01-2018, 09:42 AM
Well said, Grugore.

But not only does everything physical require a creator, the same is true for everything that had a beginning--including things that are invisible to the human eye such as the air we breathe.

The precision in our fine-tuned universe is evidence of the Divine Creator, Almighty God Jehovah.


Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

The human eye can see millions of colors. It can simultaneously process one and a half MILLION bits of data. It also has auto focus and automatically adjusts for brightness and low light conditions. And some people believe that it is the result of blind chance. Some people are blind fools.

Grugore
07-01-2018, 09:45 AM
we needed to die for what reason?


how did Jesus being killed by his father fix anything?

It's in the Bible. Read it. More importantly, ask God for His help in understanding it. Let go of your foolish pride. It will be the death of you.

evince
07-01-2018, 09:47 AM
there is no gods or monsters

evince
07-01-2018, 09:49 AM
The human eye can see millions of colors. It can simultaneously process one and a half MILLION bits of data. It also has auto focus and automatically adjusts for brightness and low light conditions. And some people believe that it is the result of blind chance. Some people are blind fools.

evolution is not blind chance you science void


just because you were lied to as a child doesn't make you correct

Guno צְבִי
07-01-2018, 09:57 AM
And we know through history how the christer god and their predecessor gods were invented, people of that time didn't have any knowledge of science, no excuse now for thinking that crap is real.The primitives also though stars can fall to the earth and claimed the sun revolved around the earth and that spirits controlled events

Grugore
07-01-2018, 10:08 AM
The universe had a Creator, or it created itself. Only a fool would believe that it created itself.

Fentoine Lum
07-01-2018, 10:31 AM
The universe had a Creator, or it created itself. Only a fool would believe that it created itself.

Only a fool believes believing is thinking.

Grugore
07-01-2018, 10:33 AM
Only a fool believes believing is thinking.

Hmmm...do you actually believe what you just said?

Fentoine Lum
07-01-2018, 10:33 AM
Hmmm...do you actually believe what you just said?

That's what I think.

Grugore
07-01-2018, 10:35 AM
That's what I think.

That is what you believe.

Fentoine Lum
07-01-2018, 10:44 AM
That is what you believe.

Not yours to assign. That's the trouble with you people. You envision a universe run by a male dominator god in your own image, then you deem yourselves gods as well.

Frank Apisa
07-01-2018, 11:03 AM
The human eye can see millions of colors. It can simultaneously process one and a half MILLION bits of data. It also has auto focus and automatically adjusts for brightness and low light conditions. And some people believe that it is the result of blind chance. Some people are blind fools.

I certainly agree that "some people are blind fools."

I suspect we disagree on who those people are.

Frank Apisa
07-01-2018, 11:05 AM
Only a fool believes believing is thinking.

So good...it deserves to be repeated.

Which I have done.

Fentoine Lum
07-01-2018, 11:08 AM
So good...it deserves to be repeated.

Which I have done.

I stole it from John Trudell, pass it on .....

Minister of Truth
07-01-2018, 11:08 AM
So good...it deserves to be repeated.

Which I have done.

Ironically, it was stated by a Marxist. :cof1: