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View Full Version : Israel says they will go it alone against Iran



uscitizen
08-24-2006, 11:24 AM
Headline on Drudgereport.

It seems to be working out as I predicted. Israel will open the can of worms and Bush/we will bail them out.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 11:37 AM
Headline on Drudgereport.

It seems to be working out as I predicted. Israel will open the can of worms and Bush/we will bail them out.

Yeah, them no good jews are going to start something now! Oh, but I guess iran poses no threat, right?

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 11:44 AM
Story link:

ISRAEL MAY 'GO IT ALONE' AGAINST IRAN (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525933028&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 11:45 AM
Nothings gonna happen.

toby
08-24-2006, 11:47 AM
If you are going to discuss an article you should include a link.

toby
08-24-2006, 11:49 AM
Thank you Sir!

Israel is not starting something. Iran says it will destroy Israel. Why do the libs seem to miss that? They say it time and time again. But per the article

>>Israel is carefully watching the world's reaction to Iran's continued refusal to suspend uranium enrichment, with some high-level officials arguing it is now clear that when it comes to stopping Iran, Israel "may have to go it alone," The Jerusalem Post has learned

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 11:54 AM
Thank you Sir!
But per the article

>>Israel is carefully watching the world's reaction to Iran's continued refusal to suspend uranium enrichment, with some high-level officials arguing it is now clear that when it comes to stopping Iran, Israel "may have to go it alone," The Jerusalem Post has learned

Iran has been chanting the death of Israel and USA for a quarter century now, The presdient of iran recently said that the solution to peace in the middle east was easy "destroy israel". With the tension mounting over the nuclear issue who stands to get struck first should they produce a weapon of such? Even more unclear, who those are who buys the fact that iran has peaceful intentions.

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 12:00 PM
Well destroying the opposition seems to be the goal of both sides.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 12:02 PM
Well destroying the opposition seems to be the goal of both sides.

Yes it's true, destroy or be destroyed is what it will come down to!

toby
08-24-2006, 12:03 PM
Israel is just saying it will defend itself. Not nearly how you put it UScit

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 12:05 PM
Yes it's true, destroy or be destroyed is what it will come down to!
Hmm, does that include us ? Or would it perhaps be the best to let them go at it and diminsh the threats to us ? After all someone said it is better for the innocents of the enemy to die than our innocents ? wonder who that was ?

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 12:08 PM
Israel will do what the rest of the world won't do for their own protection. They will be condemned in the un and lots of resolutions will be passed and hand wringing will go on and the un will say shame on you Israel. But they will be safe for a while longer from the madmen in the east.

If they do this it will be with full knowledge of the US as they will need flightover permission in iraq.

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 12:09 PM
Its a lot of bluster frankly. I think Kim Jong Il is more unstable than than Ahmadinejad and he hasn't started nuking people.

BTW I feel inclined to frequently remind people that the President of Iran is not the leader of Iran. Ayatollah Khameini has the title of Supreme leader of Iran. He is the true leader.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 12:11 PM
Hmm, does that include us ? Or would it perhaps be the best to let them go at it and diminsh the threats to us ? After all someone said it is better for the innocents of the enemy to die than our innocents ? wonder who that was ?

Well the jews will be jews to some but I guess that would turn to heroes to some if they do it alone. I don't know exactly who you are accusing in your last piece of the thread but that is were the wonderful feature of the quote button comes in handy! Was not I who made that statement!

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 12:12 PM
I believe Iran is building Nuclear weapons and their intentions are not peaceful. However I also do not believe that they are building them to lob over to Tel Aviv.

The most likely reason for their development is seeing that Iraq got invaded instead of North Korea. They know that nuclear powers are immune from foreign intervention. It is a weapon of deterrence. A man who buys a gun doesn't necessarily intend to shoot someone. I think this is a similar situation.

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 12:13 PM
Hmm, does that include us ? Or would it perhaps be the best to let them go at it and diminsh the threats to us ? After all someone said it is better for the innocents of the enemy to die than our innocents ? wonder who that was ?

It was me. And I stand by it. Enemy civilians are still the enemy. And better them than us. Of course I won't include you in us.

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 12:16 PM
Isn't Gaffer a synonym for Hooker? :)

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 12:16 PM
Its a lot of bluster frankly. I think Kim Jong Il is more unstable than than Ahmadinejad and he hasn't started nuking people.

BTW I feel inclined to frequently remind people that the President of Iran is not the leader of Iran. Ayatollah Khameini has the title of Supreme leader of Iran. He is the true leader.

Kim Jong also claims that we are about to attack every other week! I don't see NK being near as a voatile situation as iran, I see them as the one that are all bluster. They are seeking more political issues such as aid like they constantly do to the south. However I don't say they are not of a serious danger as well, just not as much so as iran.

And as far as who has the final say in iran, do you really think the Ayatollah is any more stable minded than the president? The Ayatollah is the one who started the nation chanting the death stuff to the US & Israel!

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 12:18 PM
A man who buys a gun doesn't necessarily intend to shoot someone. I think this is a similar situation.

Your speaking of a civilization that are keen on suicide bombers, having their children watch cartoon on suicide bombing but yet you think if they have a gun they will use it as a deterence?:eek:

toby
08-24-2006, 12:22 PM
So the best thing that could happen is for the UN to get it's act together and put sanctions on Iran to stop the bomb. But that is just wishfull thinking, it won't happen. the UN is useless.

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 12:22 PM
Kim Jong also claims that we are about to attack every other week! I don't see NK being near as a voatile situation as iran, I see them as the one that are all bluster. They are seeking more political issues such as aid like they constantly do to the south. However I don't say they are not of a serious danger as well, just not as much so as iran.

Why do you think Iran is more of a threat than North Korea? Especially since NK is much more capable of firing missles at the US than Iran. Iran possesses no missles that are remotely capable of hitting the US. North Korea does.

As for Death to Israel and such Iran has been saying that a long time since the revolution. Politics of the region seem to show that this death to Israel chanting is more out of obligation than willingness. During the 1980s Iran and Israel were clandestine partners who had common enemies. Both nations felt threatened by the Arabs and the Soviet Union. The palestinians resented the Iranians for their hollow rhetoric because they knew they would only talk about death to Israel but would never do anything against them.

The common enemy bond ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the defeat of Saddam Hussein. However there remains little reason to believe the Iranians now as they have been insincere for decades. This is the boy crying wolf I don't think we should come running now.

Bluffing is a common political tactic in the region. Saddam bluffed for 10 years about his WMD and it got him invaded. Iran does the same we should not be goaded so easily.

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 12:25 PM
Your speaking of a civilization that are keen on suicide bombers, having their children watch cartoon on suicide bombing but yet you think if they have a gun they will use it as a deterence?

You're talking about the wrong civilization. Iran has not had a documented case of suicide bombers in decades. Not all cultures in the ME are monolithic you know.

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 12:26 PM
Well the jews will be jews to some but I guess that would turn to heroes to some if they do it alone. I don't know exactly who you are accusing in your last piece of the thread but that is were the wonderful feature of the quote button comes in handy! Was not I who made that statement!
Not you was gaffer.

toby
08-24-2006, 12:29 PM
If a man tell you he is going to kill you and then goes out and buys a gun, you should be a bit concerned! LOL

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 12:29 PM
So the best thing that could happen is for the UN to get it's act together and put sanctions on Iran to stop the bomb. But that is just wishfull thinking, it won't happen. the UN is useless.

The warmonging right wants to push for sanctions before action but Russia & China will stand in the way for their politcal gains and put and to that. You are 100% right, the UN is useless, and the iaranian president alright basically mocked any type of resolutions set by the UN.

Damocles
08-24-2006, 12:31 PM
Let's work this out from Iran's perspective.

Were I the Pres. of Iran, nothing you could say or do short of conquering me would stop me from working on the bomb.

toby
08-24-2006, 12:32 PM
Ihate no one is saying North Korea is not a threat but the post was about the threat is Israel and well, NK is not all that concerned about the jews.

toby
08-24-2006, 12:34 PM
Dam, what if you were the president of Israel?

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 12:35 PM
I know that Toby but I was bringing up North Korea to compare levels of threat in relation to the US not just Israel. Obviously Israel has more reason to attack Iran than NK.

Damocles
08-24-2006, 12:35 PM
Dam, what if you were the president of Israel?
I would do whatever it took to make sure they didn't get it.

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 12:36 PM
If I were the Prime Minister of Israel I would send in the Mossad to assess the situation. Mossad is a very efficient organization and would get me the info I needed to make a good decision.

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 12:41 PM
It was me. And I stand by it. Enemy civilians are still the enemy. And better them than us. Of course I won't include you in us.

Does us to you include Israel ?

toby
08-24-2006, 12:49 PM
The USA policy is to oppose ANY new nuke weapons being developed by goverments. especially ones who are hostile to other countries. That should be our policy.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 12:49 PM
Why do you think Iran is more of a threat than North Korea? Especially since NK is much more capable of firing missles at the US than Iran. Iran possesses no missles that are remotely capable of hitting the US. North Korea does.

Well thats was why I stated that I see NK as bluster, but as of now we know NK has "claimed" to have these missiles, but we alos know that they claim we are on the verge of invading any day now. I believe they have them, I don't believe they are prepared to using them by any means. Iran on the other hand has'nt claimed anything, we know nothing for sure their either, but they are indeed stalling the situation. So it's of my opinion that Iran would not hesitate to put this kind of weaponry into hands of terrorists as soon as possible, and therefore why I see them as the bigger threat.



As for Death to Israel and such Iran has been saying that a long time since the revolution. Politics of the region seem to show that this death to Israel chanting is more out of obligation than willingness. During the 1980s Iran and Israel were clandestine partners who had common enemies. Both nations felt threatened by the Arabs and the Soviet Union. The palestinians resented the Iranians for their hollow rhetoric because they knew they would only talk about death to Israel but would never do anything against them.

The common enemy bond ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the defeat of Saddam Hussein. However there remains little reason to believe the Iranians now as they have been insincere for decades. This is the boy crying wolf I don't think we should come running now.

I think the iranians insincerity is pretty evident , it's shows in lebanon, it show in syria, other arabic nations are also noticing.



Bluffing is a common political tactic in the region. Saddam bluffed for 10 years about his WMD and it got him invaded. Iran does the same we should not be goaded so easily.

Saddam bluffed longer then ten years, Saddam had a whole lot more than bluffs that got him invaded though.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 12:53 PM
You're talking about the wrong civilization. Iran has not had a documented case of suicide bombers in decades. Not all cultures in the ME are monolithic you know.
:eek:

Holy toledo, who the hell is funding hizbollah, were are the suicide bombers in iraq coming from, why do they teach their children that suicide bombing will make you a martyr, what are the purpose of these entertaining cartoons. Do you really believe iran has no hand in suicide bombers?

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 12:54 PM
Iran better be careful who they would give nukes to, they might wind up getting them used on themselves.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 12:55 PM
Does us to you include Israel ?

As an ally it should! if iran were to carry out their wishes against israel who do you think they will go after next?

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 01:02 PM
Well thats was why I stated that I see NK as bluster, but as of now we know NK has "claimed" to have these missiles, but we alos know that they claim we are on the verge of invading any day now. I believe they have them, I don't believe they are prepared to using them by any means. Iran on the other hand has'nt claimed anything, we know nothing for sure their either, but they are indeed stalling the situation. So it's of my opinion that Iran would not hesitate to put this kind of weaponry into hands of terrorists as soon as possible, and therefore why I see them as the bigger threat.


Iran hasn't claimed anything because they want to operate from the idea right now that it is for peaceful purposes. Once the bombs are built they will declare them and use them as a bargaining chip in foreign relations.

As for putting them in the hands of terrorists I doubt it. Mainly because Iran may try to hide its links with terror but they are well known. If we have even a remote reason to believe that they were involved with terrorists using a nuclear weapon they would be wiped off the face of the map. The mullahs know this they will not destroy themselves in this way.

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 01:04 PM
Does us to you include Israel ?

Israel is a close ally so I include them.


As for the NK threat. They don't have any missles that can reach the US. The can reach Japan and a few islands to the south which they don't have the guidance systems to really hit. They are a backward stupid people still in the 50's frame of mind that they are somehow a powerful country and without the support of china they would collapse. They are regionally dangerous but they strut a lot to extort things from their neighbors. They are a complete welfare system relying completely on outside support. SK doesn't want them as they are so far behind that the infrastuture would have to be complete rebuiilt, its even worse than e. germany was. They could do a lot of immediate damage to the area, but they would go down in a week if push came to shove. Especially if china doesn't support them.



Japan is already making changes to their constitution to allow them to take offense action against nk. If they do test a nuke japan will take action. They will get the fallout.

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 01:06 PM
oly toledo, who the hell is funding hizbollah, were are the suicide bombers in iraq coming from, why do they teach their children that suicide bombing will make you a martyr, what are the purpose of these entertaining cartoons. Do you really believe iran has no hand in suicide bombers?
Reply With Quote

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization but they don't use suicide bombers. You are thinking of groups like Hamas or Al Aqsa Martyr's brigade.

The suicide bombers in Iraq are Sunnis and are not supported by Iran. Iran is most likely helping Shiite militias in Iraq. These militias do not do suicide bombings.

I don't know about the cartoons but are you sure they are Iranian. Most of those kind of things I have read about come from Palestine.

The thing is with suicide bombings is that it is a tactic of the desperate who have no hope of prevailing. Iran is a relatively powerful nation with a fairly good quality of life. Few Iranians would so willingly give their life away. It is not like the Palestinians who feel this is the only way they can prevail or kamikazes who think Americans will slaughter their countrymen if they manage to hit the beaches.

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 01:09 PM
As for the NK threat. They don't have any missles that can reach the US. The can reach Japan and a few islands to the south which they don't have the guidance systems to really hit. They are a backward stupid people still in the 50's frame of mind that they are somehow a powerful country and without the support of china they would collapse. They are regionally dangerous but they strut a lot to extort things from their neighbors. They are a complete welfare system relying completely on outside support. SK doesn't want them as they are so far behind that the infrastuture would have to be complete rebuiilt, its even worse than e. germany was. They could do a lot of immediate damage to the area, but they would go down in a week if push came to shove. Especially if china doesn't support them.

I understand that NKs technology isn't good. In fact I even talked with a guy in the Air Force who said that the Soviet Union's guidance systems were so bad that an ICBM targeted for DC would have hit Baltimore instead.

That said why should be be afraid of Iran then if it is North Korea helping them develop their technology.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 01:11 PM
If we have even a remote reason to believe that they were involved with terrorists using a nuclear weapon they would be wiped off the face of the map. The mullahs know this they will not destroy themselves in this way.

Exactly, hence the idea of them not getting nuclear abilities. However with them already at work with nuclear properties, and talking of wiping out israel one must wonder how they are claiming they seek nuclear energy for peaceful purposes.
Now, the UN body of corruption will hold talks once again on irans decision to want to keep their capabilites but to talk further( another stall tactic), and Russia, and China will grant them this option, heck Russia supplied them, as they have something to gain as well. Just like the iraq issue that took forever to act upon, should we wait say 12 years and see what happens? Yes, I see iran as a much bigger issue than NK at the present moment.

toby
08-24-2006, 01:13 PM
Israel just bought two subs that can launch nuke missiles, wonder where they will be parked? LOL

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 01:15 PM
Exactly, hence the idea of them not getting nuclear abilities. However with them already at work with nuclear properties, and talking of wiping out israel one must wonder how they are claiming they seek nuclear energy for peaceful purposes.

I don't believe them but I think they are building them for defense and not offense. Its insane to nuke Israel from Iran anyway it is only a few hundred miles away. The nuclear fallout would kill many Iranians. Not to mention that a nuclear strike against any nation is generally considered justification for nuking the initiating country.

Now, the UN body of corruption will hold talks once again on irans decision to want to keep their capabilites but to talk further( another stall tactic), and Russia, and China will grant them this option, heck Russia supplied them, as they have something to gain as well. Just like the iraq issue that took forever to act upon, should we wait say 12 years and see what happens? Yes, I see iran as a much bigger issue than NK at the present moment.

Yes the UN will not help. I also don't think the US will suffer if Iran develops he bomb anymore than we did when North Korea built it.

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 01:21 PM
"Iran hasn't claimed anything because they want to operate from the idea right now that it is for peaceful purposes. Once the bombs are built they will declare them and use them as a bargaining chip in foreign relations.

As for putting them in the hands of terrorists I doubt it. Mainly because Iran may try to hide its links with terror but they are well known. If we have even a remote reason to believe that they were involved with terrorists using a nuclear weapon they would be wiped off the face of the map. The mullahs know this they will not destroy themselves in this way."

You are one naive silly man. Once iran has nukes they will attack Israel with them. They have stated as much. They only talk to buy time to build up. That is the islamic way. Talk, lie, do anything you have too until you are in a positon to act. They don't hide their connections with terror, they openly support hezbollah and many other such organizations. They even suppiled troops to assist hezbollah. They have suicide brigades, ever heard of the martyrs brigade. The IED's in iraq come from iran. These guys and their thought processes are so far removed from yours that you might as well sit down and talk to a rabid dog about why it shouldn't bite you.

You can bet if iran can get a nuke they can load on a ship they will turn it over to one of the terrorist groups to sail it into one of our harbors. The crazy mullahs over there want to start an apocolyptic war to bring back the 12th imam. This is their stated goal. And their own deaths in the process don't matter.

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 01:28 PM
Israel just bought two subs that can launch nuke missiles, wonder where they will be parked? LOL

I'm sure we already have some parked there.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 01:32 PM
The thing is with suicide bombings is that it is a tactic of the desperate who have no hope of prevailing. Iran is a relatively powerful nation with a fairly good quality of life. Few Iranians would so willingly give their life away. It is not like the Palestinians who feel this is the only way they can prevail or kamikazes who think Americans will slaughter their countrymen if they manage to hit the beaches.

The whole iranian cartoon episode has been pretty well documented, I have no instant link for you at the moment but you will find it in a quick serch on the net.
I saw one of the clips as well, and it sure does show a child dropping himself onto a vehicle well strapped with bombs.

Iraq was at one time considered the power of the region as far as military might, we marched through them instantly before entering a guerilla war, I would feel pretty desperate in the iranians place as well, especially with the card they are trying to stack now. You are right though in their quality of life, and it shows as many of their own is very much against what they are currently doing. I saw on the news a political figure, can't remember who but it could of been a democrat as I remember thinking to myself "finally someone that is making sense on the situation" anyway this person suggested having communication open with them as it would help find a way to create an uprise by those who oppose the government there.

toby
08-24-2006, 01:33 PM
We are not Israel.

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 01:36 PM
You are one naive silly man. Once iran has nukes they will attack Israel with them. They have stated as much. They only talk to buy time to build up. That is the islamic way. Talk, lie, do anything you have too until you are in a positon to act.

I am not naive. You fail to look at history or the nature of war and politics. If Muslims are so trigger happy with the nukes why hasn't Pakistan the second largest muslim country in the world nuked India or at least given the nukes to a terrorist organization to do it for them. Because they know they will be nuked in return or they simply view it as not worth it.

They don't hide their connections with terror, they openly support hezbollah and many other such organizations.

Supporting Terror doesn't equal being suicidal. Just because Iran gives money to Hezbollah to fire rockets full of nails at Israel doesn't mean they will launch a nuclear strike which will automatically be retaliated against culminating in the extinction of the Republic of Iran.

They even suppiled troops to assist hezbollah.

Thats actually not true. Iran interestingly enough stopped Iranian people from crossing the border to link up with Hezbollah. Obviously its not because they are good it is political but this bears mentioning.

They have suicide brigades, ever heard of the martyrs brigade.

You're thinking of palestinians not Iranians. I reiterate that no Iranian national has been involved with suicide bombings since the revolution.

The IED's in iraq come from iran.

Why would Iran give IED to sunnis so that they can kill fellow shiites. This makes no sense.

These guys and their thought processes are so far removed from yours that you might as well sit down and talk to a rabid dog about why it shouldn't bite you.

What guys the leaders of Iran? They aren't as crazy as you think their devotees are but they can be controlled and are.


You can bet if iran can get a nuke they can load on a ship they will turn it over to one of the terrorist groups to sail it into one of our harbors. The crazy mullahs over there want to start an apocolyptic war to bring back the 12th imam. This is their stated goal. And their own deaths in the process don't matter.

The grunts and the guys on the bottom always want to do this stuff not the guys on top. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Ayatollah Khameini like living I can assure you and won't sacrifice their own lives for the cause. Using a nuclear weapon against the US is a guaranteed way for them to end their lives.

It is almost always the case that the leader of a movement of terrorism doesn't live up to the standard they preach. Osame bin laden broke many Quranic rules in his own home life. Mullah Omar the leader of the Taliban lived in plush homes while the people starved.

These guys wouldn't surrender their life and neither will the mullahs. They are talking shit not unlike Nikita Khruschev with his shoe talking about burying us.

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 01:43 PM
Iraq was at one time considered the power of the region as far as military might, we marched through them instantly before entering a guerilla war, I would feel pretty desperate in the iranians place as well, especially with the card they are trying to stack now.

Maybe but we aren't going to do the same in Iran. But yes you are probably right if we invaded Iran and occupied them they would use suicide tactics maybe even their nuclear arsenal. That is why they are building one to make sure we don't invade. Thats what they want to do not nuke Israel.

We are not able to invade Iran now anyway nor should we.

The Iranians are pretty moderate as a whole. Do you remember the former President of Iran. His name was Mohammad Khatami and he was a reformer a lot of people had hope with him but the mullahs wouldn't listen to him and he resigned in frustration. This event showed me that the office of president in Iran is meaningless. As far as what Iran is going to do I worry more about Khameini than Ahmadinejad. And although the mullahs are repressive they aren't especially beligerent either.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 01:51 PM
The Iranians are pretty moderate as a whole. Do you remember the former President of Iran. His name was Mohammad Khatami and he was a reformer a lot of people had hope with him but the mullahs wouldn't listen to him and he resigned in frustration. This event showed me that the office of president in Iran is meaningless. As far as what Iran is going to do I worry more about Khameini than Ahmadinejad. And although the mullahs are repressive they aren't especially beligerent either.

Agreed! that is why I thought the point I made about whoever it was that said leaving the communication channel open to help had the right idea. many of their own are against the current ideology of their government. I would prefer seeing an uprising of their own as opposed to us going in there for sure, but still think it's best to leave all option open at this point.

IHateGovernment
08-24-2006, 01:53 PM
I support neutrality in world affairs but if we had to do something I'd recommend arming the dissidents in Iran clandestinely to topple the government. This has gotten us in trouble before but still beats invasion.

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 01:55 PM
The kamakazi's of Japan commited suicide attacks because they believed to die for the emperor was a sure ticket to heaven. Sound familiar.

The mullahs and president imalittlehitler of iran are not worried about living. They want an apocolyptic war. You can bet they live well and they have lots of fanatics to send off to blow themselves up. But they have a goal to either subjigate the world or destroy it, whichever comes first.

They don't want nukes for defensive purposes.

As for pakistan. The dictator there (that's what he is) while muslum is not a religious fanatic and wants to live and stay in power. His state and livelyhood come before his religion. If he ever loses power and one of those crazies gets in all hell will break loose.

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 02:02 PM
I would bet we already have clandestine operations going on in iran. But the government there has an iron fist on the populus and I don't think they will be able to do anything unless we provide direct military support.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 02:04 PM
The mullahs and president imalittlehitler

The president ima ima ima, ahh what the hell is his name? I cant' even say it let alone spell it!:cig:

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 02:04 PM
As an ally it should! if iran were to carry out their wishes against israel who do you think they will go after next?

So if one ant stomps another ant the next target is an elephant ?

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 02:08 PM
So if one ant stomps another ant the next target is an elephant ?

Ya know pops, you go and start this thread and then leave me to all the answering and now you come back with this question?:shock:

If an ant stomps another ant, the elephant stomps the said ant! hows that one work? :cof1:

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 02:12 PM
Evil,
2 weak powers compared to the USA. If One stomps the other one how thaes that equate to the surving weak power stomping us especially considering it will be weakened ?
Ie Iran kicks Israels butt, which I doubt. so therefore it will come after the USA ?

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 02:20 PM
Ie Iran kicks Israels butt, which I doubt. so therefore it will come after the USA ?

Only if they were to succed in this ambition, its what they want! The whole thing of them attemting to gain nuclear powers is over this very issue.

So I understand correctly though, you would not oppose iran having nukes? or you oppose the idea that they would use them?

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 02:24 PM
I oppose the idea of Iran having nukes, but I don't think we should go to war over it. We did not invade Pakistan or other countries as they got the bomb. We survived the cold war, etc.
I would someday like to see Israel admit to having nukes and bio/chem WMD's as well and be included in all nuke control talks.

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 02:30 PM
Evil,
2 weak powers compared to the USA. If One stomps the other one how thaes that equate to the surving weak power stomping us especially considering it will be weakened ?
Ie Iran kicks Israels butt, which I doubt. so therefore it will come after the USA ?

Yes they will. They want to re-establish the old islamic empire and then expand it. That's their goal. Israel is just a stepping stone for them. They have stated this. If you study islamic history they use the same tactics over and over strategically speaking.

Attack your enemy.
If he's too strong talk to him. Lie to him and get him to let his guard down.
Once you have sufficent force attack and wipe him out.
Move on to the next objective or enemy.
Repeat above.

Its the same tactic used in the 7th century and they are still using it. They want nukes and the means to launch those nukes. They will take as long as they need to aquire them, when they feel they have enough they will launch them. Regardless of counter strikes.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 02:38 PM
I oppose the idea of Iran having nukes, but I don't think we should go to war over it. We did not invade Pakistan or other countries as they got the bomb. We survived the cold war, etc.
I would someday like to see Israel admit to having nukes and bio/chem WMD's as well and be included in all nuke control talks.

Well thats a fair statement! I don't think many of us want to go to war over this and this is why we attempt the UN route, although I don't hold any hope in that working as the UN has proven over and over that they can't put the muscle behind the hustle. Pakistan/Isreal are allies, they are not marching to the same beat as iran, they are not threatening us, all cannot' be fair unfortunately in politics, it's like suggesting giving a gun to manson because dirty harry had one!

Pakistan could very well be an issue one day as well, yes they do have nukes, and should some of the extremists they have living there get a hold of them there will be some problems for sure. I think the pakistanian leader has already had a few failed attempt at his life, any clue on who would wanna do such a thing?

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 02:38 PM
Are we still using the same tactica as in the crusades and such too gaffer ? Perhaps that is why things have never settled down in the ME.

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 02:39 PM
Well thats a fair statement! I don't think many of us want to go to war over this and this is why we attempt the UN route, although I don't hold any hope in that working as the UN has proven over and over that they can't put the muscle behind the hustle. Pakistan/Isreal are allies, they are not marching to the same beat as iran, they are not threatening us, all cannot' be fair unfortunately in politics, it's like suggesting giving a gun to manson because dirty harry had one!

Pakistan could very well be an issue one day as well, yes they do have nukes, and should some of the extremists they have living there get a hold of them there will be some problems for sure. I think the pakistanian leader has already had a few failed attempt at his life, any clue on who would wanna do such a thing?

the UN has no clout, the clout that the UN can generate comes from the combined determination and goals of it's member nations. the UN is not a power unto itself.
the USA's (biggest member) dissing and fussing with the other members has greatly diminshed the UN. It is mostly our fault that is has become weaker.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 02:44 PM
the UN has no clout, the clout that the UN can generate comes from the combined determination and goals of it's member nations. the UN is not a power unto itself.

The goals of the UN are not what they were set out to be, The UN is about as corrupt as one orginization can become. There is a reason russia & china would stand in the way of any meaningful resolution, and iran knows that all to well.
Look at the tough sanctions put upon iran, that did'nt stop russia from sending in the weapons, and they are supposedly a friend?

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 02:47 PM
Not just the UN on the corruption our own gummit sucks too.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 02:52 PM
Not just the UN on the corruption our own gummit sucks too.

Corruption runs high everywhere, nobody is immune to it, it also resides in all forms of most governments one way or another. Like it or not, you are part of it if you wanna play in the political dome!

Care4all
08-24-2006, 02:56 PM
Gaffer????????????????

Attack your enemy? Love your enemy so that your love shown would be like burning coals on their head. j.christ...

Where the heck do you ge tattack your enemy from....? that is sooooooo messed up, so messed up...you are chosing to kill innocent people, because you KNOW THIS WILL HAPPEN, you are chosing to kill our military soldiers because you know, you know for certain it will happen!

For Christ sake...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We went 20 years in the cold war with a REAL ENEMY of us and did NOT go to war with them and still conquered them...and that was a great feat that many repubs attribute to Reagan...

NOW, NOW it is this crew of conservatives, SUPPOSEDLY, like yourself with your pom poms rattling to KILL, KILL, KILL...?

Jimminee Christmas, what the hell happened with trying to solve our problems peacefully no matter how long it takes...preventing war? like with the USSR...its a damn CHESS game for goodness sakes and you are trying to make it in to a game of War, WITH KILLING AND MORE KILLING?

If this administration can not hire good diplomats that know how to achieve what is best through peaceful means then they are hiring the wrong people.

PREEMPTIVE WAR, attacking the enemy as you put it...

IS THE BIGGEST FRICKING MISTAKE OF BUSH'S PRESIDENCY

Changing us from attacking when being attacked to opening it being Preemptive war being okay is a disgrace and not what we stand for as Americans...we don't send our boys off to their deaths in the thousands or their new state of limblessness, UNLESS THERE IS AN IMMINENT THREAT UPON US...

Bush's preemptive war is a mistake...it needs to go back to the congress declaring war with 2/3's of congress's approval as the constitution states and it needs to go back to ONLY GOING TO WAR ...when we have an imminent threat. PERIOD....

man oh man!!!

care

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 02:57 PM
Corruption runs high everywhere, nobody is immune to it, it also resides in all forms of most governments one way or another. Like it or not, you are part of it if you wanna play in the political dome!

Yep, money+power = corruption * time

some wanterd me to run for Constable in my county. I controlled myself and did not cuss them out. Why would I want to jump in the mud and wallow with the hogs I instead asked. they replied that I could be a good influence and lclean it up. I said one ant cannot move a mountian and will just get squashed if it tries.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 03:06 PM
Yep, money+power = corruption * time

some wanterd me to run for Constable in my county. I controlled myself and did not cuss them out. Why would I want to jump in the mud and wallow with the hogs I instead asked. they replied that I could be a good influence and lclean it up. I said one ant cannot move a mountian and will just get squashed if it tries.

That's a picture perfect anology! very true but as mere voices of our own choices is not enough, who moves the mountains that are now in place? we must trust in our own wehter it be corrupt or not, but we are one of the better ones as we have the choices we do have, you can have the opportunity to move that mountain if you so choose to do, otherwise you wind up right back here voicing your opinion, and it's choice and nobody elses to decide if it be right or wrong!

uscitizen
08-24-2006, 03:18 PM
Just have to voice my opinion with my vote I guess and hope the rest of the people wake up.
Yep the UN is corrupt but so is the USA and many other countries. The UN has no choice to be corrupt since it is made up of corrupt nations. It is but the sum of it's parts.

Cancel7
08-24-2006, 04:21 PM
You are one naive silly man. Once iran has nukes they will attack Israel with them. They have stated as much. They only talk to buy time to build up. That is the islamic way. Talk, lie, do anything you have too until you are in a positon to act.

I am not naive. You fail to look at history or the nature of war and politics. If Muslims are so trigger happy with the nukes why hasn't Pakistan the second largest muslim country in the world nuked India or at least given the nukes to a terrorist organization to do it for them. Because they know they will be nuked in return or they simply view it as not worth it.

They don't hide their connections with terror, they openly support hezbollah and many other such organizations.

Supporting Terror doesn't equal being suicidal. Just because Iran gives money to Hezbollah to fire rockets full of nails at Israel doesn't mean they will launch a nuclear strike which will automatically be retaliated against culminating in the extinction of the Republic of Iran.

They even suppiled troops to assist hezbollah.

Thats actually not true. Iran interestingly enough stopped Iranian people from crossing the border to link up with Hezbollah. Obviously its not because they are good it is political but this bears mentioning.

They have suicide brigades, ever heard of the martyrs brigade.

You're thinking of palestinians not Iranians. I reiterate that no Iranian national has been involved with suicide bombings since the revolution.

The IED's in iraq come from iran.

Why would Iran give IED to sunnis so that they can kill fellow shiites. This makes no sense.

These guys and their thought processes are so far removed from yours that you might as well sit down and talk to a rabid dog about why it shouldn't bite you.

What guys the leaders of Iran? They aren't as crazy as you think their devotees are but they can be controlled and are.


You can bet if iran can get a nuke they can load on a ship they will turn it over to one of the terrorist groups to sail it into one of our harbors. The crazy mullahs over there want to start an apocolyptic war to bring back the 12th imam. This is their stated goal. And their own deaths in the process don't matter.

The grunts and the guys on the bottom always want to do this stuff not the guys on top. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Ayatollah Khameini like living I can assure you and won't sacrifice their own lives for the cause. Using a nuclear weapon against the US is a guaranteed way for them to end their lives.

It is almost always the case that the leader of a movement of terrorism doesn't live up to the standard they preach. Osame bin laden broke many Quranic rules in his own home life. Mullah Omar the leader of the Taliban lived in plush homes while the people starved.

These guys wouldn't surrender their life and neither will the mullahs. They are talking shit not unlike Nikita Khruschev with his shoe talking about burying us.

Excellent posts on this subject.

But don't let it go to your head, I'm still on the fence about you. ;)

Naive! Naivity is swallowing every poopaganda story coming out of this adminstration (and other warmongers) about the dire consequences of not fighting an eternal war.

Cancel7
08-24-2006, 04:25 PM
Iraq was at one time considered the power of the region as far as military might, we marched through them instantly before entering a guerilla war, I would feel pretty desperate in the iranians place as well, especially with the card they are trying to stack now.

Maybe but we aren't going to do the same in Iran. But yes you are probably right if we invaded Iran and occupied them they would use suicide tactics maybe even their nuclear arsenal. That is why they are building one to make sure we don't invade. Thats what they want to do not nuke Israel.

We are not able to invade Iran now anyway nor should we.

The Iranians are pretty moderate as a whole. Do you remember the former President of Iran. His name was Mohammad Khatami and he was a reformer a lot of people had hope with him but the mullahs wouldn't listen to him and he resigned in frustration. This event showed me that the office of president in Iran is meaningless. As far as what Iran is going to do I worry more about Khameini than Ahmadinejad. And although the mullahs are repressive they aren't especially beligerent either.

That's true about so many of them being moderates, and the terrible thing is that the leaders, for their own opportunistic reasons, just like here, use the threat of an outside foe to unite the people behind them. So all we do, is strengthen the repressive forces in that country. It's just such a sick cycle.

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 05:31 PM
Are we still using the same tactica as in the crusades and such too gaffer ? Perhaps that is why things have never settled down in the ME.

The strtegic tactics I was referring to are from the koran. I simplified it for the likes of you. Civilizations that have been around a while have moved on from the 7th century, only islam remains stuck in the same mind frame.

Of course liberals are stuck in the sixties.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 05:47 PM
Of course liberals are stuck in the sixties.

:lolup:

I figured something like that was coming, what took ya so long?

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 05:49 PM
That's true about so many of them being moderates, and the terrible thing is that the leaders, for their own opportunistic reasons, just like here, use the threat of an outside foe to unite the people behind them. So all we do, is strengthen the repressive forces in that country. It's just such a sick cycle.

Hmmm, equating iran and the US....... Yep, I can see the similarities! :shock:

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 05:57 PM
Gaffer????????????????

Attack your enemy? Love your enemy so that your love shown would be like burning coals on their head. j.christ...

Where the heck do you ge tattack your enemy from....? that is sooooooo messed up, so messed up...you are chosing to kill innocent people, because you KNOW THIS WILL HAPPEN, you are chosing to kill our military soldiers because you know, you know for certain it will happen!

For Christ sake...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We went 20 years in the cold war with a REAL ENEMY of us and did NOT go to war with them and still conquered them...and that was a great feat that many repubs attribute to Reagan...

NOW, NOW it is this crew of conservatives, SUPPOSEDLY, like yourself with your pom poms rattling to KILL, KILL, KILL...?

Jimminee Christmas, what the hell happened with trying to solve our problems peacefully no matter how long it takes...preventing war? like with the USSR...its a damn CHESS game for goodness sakes and you are trying to make it in to a game of War, WITH KILLING AND MORE KILLING?

If this administration can not hire good diplomats that know how to achieve what is best through peaceful means then they are hiring the wrong people.

PREEMPTIVE WAR, attacking the enemy as you put it...

IS THE BIGGEST FRICKING MISTAKE OF BUSH'S PRESIDENCY

Changing us from attacking when being attacked to opening it being Preemptive war being okay is a disgrace and not what we stand for as Americans...we don't send our boys off to their deaths in the thousands or their new state of limblessness, UNLESS THERE IS AN IMMINENT THREAT UPON US...

Bush's preemptive war is a mistake...it needs to go back to the congress declaring war with 2/3's of congress's approval as the constitution states and it needs to go back to ONLY GOING TO WAR ...when we have an imminent threat. PERIOD....

man oh man!!!

care

Wow, what a rant, i think I really pulled your chain on that one.

I mean what I say. The only things I have to go on are the reports that come from the area. Most of those are not good.

Talking with those fanatics just gives them more time to build up against us. That's the only reason they are talking now. This isn't the coldwar. MAD doesn't work with these guys. They use a 7th century tactic to come after us and you want to use a 20th century tactic to deal with them.

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in forgiveness and turning the other cheek. even rightwing christians don't come close to what these evil bastards will do. They are fundmentalist to the worst posible extreme. You really need to read up on islam a little more. And not the CAIR bullshit.

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 06:04 PM
I'm an atheist. I don't believe in forgiveness and turning the other cheek.

That's because you are the anti-christ! :p

Cancel7
08-24-2006, 06:04 PM
Great.

Send your kids first. If you have no kids, go yourself, no matter how old you are. But I prefer you send your kids. Front lines.

Send them first. When you bullshitters and macho assholes who still haven't gotten over not having the biggest dick in the locker room and have been posturing ever since, start sending your own kids FIRST, then I'll have some respect. Until then you're just a piece of shit who likes to talk big and compensate for his shortcomings with the blood of other people's children.

Pack your kids up, and send them to the front lines of Iran.

Today. Don't wait. Send them. If this is a war that must be fought so badly, that it is worth the life of MY child, then it is worth the life of yours.

Send them today.

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 06:08 PM
That's because you are the anti-christ! :p

awww now you went and gave me away. You shall pay for that.

MOOHAAAAAAAAAAAA

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 06:09 PM
Great.

Send your kids first. If you have no kids, go yourself, no matter how old you are. But I prefer you send your kids. Front lines.

Send them first. When you bullshitters and macho assholes who still haven't gotten over not having the biggest dick in the locker room and have been posturing ever since, start sending your own kids FIRST, then I'll have some respect. Until then you're just a piece of shit who likes to talk big and compensate for his shortcomings with the blood of other people's children.

Pack your kids up, and send them to the front lines of Iran.

Today. Don't wait. Send them. If this is a war that must be fought so badly, that it is worth the life of MY child, then it is worth the life of yours.

Send them today.

Holy shit, it's Cindy Sheehan!

The guy is a war veteran, he served is time! I'm the draft dodger, remember?

It amazes me how an opposing view automatically makes ya worthless around here....:rolleyes:

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 06:11 PM
awww now you went and gave me away. You shall pay for that.

MOOHAAAAAAAAAAAA


:clink:

It's ok though, I'm already paying the price by assosciation!;)

Care4all
08-24-2006, 06:41 PM
Wow, what a rant, i think I really pulled your chain on that one.

I mean what I say. The only things I have to go on are the reports that come from the area. Most of those are not good.

Talking with those fanatics just gives them more time to build up against us. That's the only reason they are talking now. This isn't the coldwar. MAD doesn't work with these guys. They use a 7th century tactic to come after us and you want to use a 20th century tactic to deal with them.

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in forgiveness and turning the other cheek. even rightwing christians don't come close to what these evil bastards will do. They are fundmentalist to the worst posible extreme. You really need to read up on islam a little more. And not the CAIR bullshit.

well you did pull my chain...first off, are you saying that Iran is a threat to us as in the usa? are you saying that if iran gets nukes that they would use them against us?

because if you are, your'e just plain nuts ;)......there would be... not a sand spec unturned in iran by us... iran would be blown in to smitherines by us...AND THEY KNOW IT.....!!! there is 5 to 7 years before their first nuke... is what i have read? if that is the case, alot of peaceful measures can be taken....

so, what's the rush to kill women and children via ''collateral'' damage?

and what's the rush to kill more of our soldiers?

ALL MEASURES POSSIBLE should always be taken before ever doing that...

why? because that is what is right and just, and that is what the PEOPLE of this country STANDS for....afterall, we are Americans.

and i am sick of people that are just arrogant war mongerers, sending our kin to die, for NO LEGITIMATE THREAT AGAINST US, THE USA, AT ALL....

so what is this really all about?

Just a bunch of scardy cats....afraid of the boogey man, just got 15,000 american soldiers dead or mamed....

and now you are chearleading for more war, more attacks, when NO ONE is any kind of military threat to us ALL OVER AGAIN.....korea after iran, then who? when will your gosh darn thirst for blood be over?

and as far as you being a conservative yet an athiest...i am beginning to think that the WHOLE LOT OF THEM MORAL Religious Right REPUBLICANS are really athiests! boym was i fooled initially! now, it is so obvious... they are certainly not christianlike! :(

have a nice evening.


care

Cancel7
08-24-2006, 06:45 PM
well you did pull my chain...first off, are you saying that Iran is a threat to us as in the usa? are you saying that if iran gets nukes that they would use them against us?

because if you are, your'e just plain nuts ;)......there would be... not a sand spec unturned in iran by us... iran would be blown in to smitherines by us...AND THEY KNOW IT.....!!! there is 5 to 7 years before their first nuke... is what i have read? if that is the case, alot of peaceful measures can be taken....

so, what's the rush to kill women and children via ''collateral'' damage?

and what's the rush to kill more of our soldiers?

ALL MEASURES POSSIBLE should always be taken before ever doing that...

why? because that is what is right and just, and that is what the PEOPLE of this country STANDS for....afterall, we are Americans.

and i am sick of people that are just arrogant war mongerers, sending our kin to die, for NO LEGITIMATE THREAT AGAINST US, THE USA, AT ALL....

so what is this really all about?

Just a bunch of scardy cats....afraid of the boogey man, just got 15,000 american soldiers dead or mamed....

and now you are chearleading for more war, more attacks, when NO ONE is any kind of military threat to us ALL OVER AGAIN.....korea after iran, then who? when will your gosh darn thirst for blood be over?

and as far as you being a conservative yet an athiest...i am beginning to think that the WHOLE LOT OF THEM MORAL Religious Right REPUBLICANS are really athiests! boym was i fooled initially! now, it is so obvious... they are certainly not christianlike! :(

have a nice evening.


care

Listen, the next time, really let loose ok?

;)

I couldn't agree more, btw!

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 06:54 PM
Great.

Send your kids first. If you have no kids, go yourself, no matter how old you are. But I prefer you send your kids. Front lines.

Send them first. When you bullshitters and macho assholes who still haven't gotten over not having the biggest dick in the locker room and have been posturing ever since, start sending your own kids FIRST, then I'll have some respect. Until then you're just a piece of shit who likes to talk big and compensate for his shortcomings with the blood of other people's children.

Pack your kids up, and send them to the front lines of Iran.

Today. Don't wait. Send them. If this is a war that must be fought so badly, that it is worth the life of MY child, then it is worth the life of yours.

Send them today.

My son isn't acceptable for the military, but my nephew is already over there. On his third tour. If I could go you can believe I would be going. And I have been on the frontline. A little coldwar conflict called vietnam. That was part of the cold war.

I know and sympathize with the troops over there and with any that end up in iran. As I said in the draft post. I was a combat vet before I was old enough to vote or drink. i know about firefights and being mortared and being so scared you can't even move. I know about boobytraps and your friends getting blown up. A lot of what I learned over there the hard way have been passed on to the guys in the frontlines now. So they are better prepared.

You liberals want another coldwar, and to use the same strategies that didn't work in that. The soviets collapsed simply cause we out spent them. This islamic war is going to be a lot different and take a different strategy. The secret to beating them is not to stop and talk after a confrontation but to keep going. Don't give them the chance to rebuild and pretend friendship. That's what Bush is doing wrong now he's not following through and keeping the pressure on. A war should only be fought to the finish of your enemy, not till he just says oh I see your point I'll quit.

I'll go into the use of civilians as cannonfodder and PR in another post.

Care4all
08-24-2006, 07:01 PM
Listen, the next time, really let loose ok?

;)

I couldn't agree more, btw!

what the heck is going on in this world?

black is now white?

injustice is now justice?

killing is saving?

evil is now good...

wtf????

yeah, I am getting really pissed, pissed at everyone that is ready to go through this shit that we have gone through with iraq all over again in Iran only much worse of a situation with Iran being stronger...and for WHAT? For what?

this was my first post to the newbie gaffer....(and I am suppose to be "care4all"...)I'm certain my handle and name came off really well... :( Oh well...

I am just soooooooo sick of war...especially if the country is not an imminent threat, ready to attack us....so many useless deaths occur....

Damocles
08-24-2006, 07:04 PM
My Nephew is joining the Army and going to the Language school, I took Russian there... Can you guess what language he is getting? (Remember this was the little guy I adopted long ago...) Man I'm proud of that kid.

Care4all
08-24-2006, 07:06 PM
My Nephew is joining the Army and going to the Language school, I took Russian there... Can you guess what language he is getting? (Remember this was the little guy I adopted long ago...) Man I'm proud of that kid.

Arabic?

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 07:06 PM
and as far as you being a conservative yet an athiest...i am beginning to think that the WHOLE LOT OF THEM MORAL Religious Right REPUBLICANS are really athiests! boym was i fooled initially! now, it is so obvious... they are certainly not christianlike! :(

have a nice evening.


care

Hi Care, I'm a so called coservative, and a good little christian boy so we are not all atheists!

A little about Gaffer since he does not appear to be on at the moment. He is indeed a war veteran, so I don't really think he fits the bill of a war cheerleader, leave that one go for me since I am not a vet! He has a great deal of knowledge on a lot of these things he has studied pretty intensively.
There are some who see that war is a neccessary evil sometimes, I don't think he see's it as the only answer. He has family I believe in Iraq at the moment, put it all together and ya get a pretty pissed of American who know the tragedies of war!

Oh, and don't be too quick to discount iran! I don't think you are seeing it the same as some. For instance, I don't see them firing of a missile the moment they should get one, but handing over something to the terrorists is a whole different story, this is being played out right now in lebanon but only on a smaller scale. they will find the proxy to strike given the tools to do so!

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 07:08 PM
what the heck is going on in this world?


evil is now good...

wtf????


Aww, was that directed at me? :cof1:

Care4all
08-24-2006, 07:12 PM
Aww, was that directed at me? :cof1:

hahahahahaha! ty....needed a laugh and a smile.... lol!


Peace!

care

Damocles
08-24-2006, 07:20 PM
Arabic?
First try! Yes, pretty much they are putting everybody with the ability to learn through Arabic right now. I wish I could afford to go back in, DLI is one awesome place of learning, I just can't be that poor and still pay the bills yet.

Care4all
08-24-2006, 07:44 PM
Hi Care, I'm a so called coservative, and a good little christian boy so we are not all atheists!

A little about Gaffer since he does not appear to be on at the moment. He is indeed a war veteran, so I don't really think he fits the bill of a war cheerleader, leave that one go for me since I am not a vet! He has a great deal of knowledge on a lot of these things he has studied pretty intensively.
There are some who see that war is a neccessary evil sometimes, I don't think he see's it as the only answer. He has family I believe in Iraq at the moment, put it all together and ya get a pretty pissed of American who know the tragedies of war!

Oh, and don't be too quick to discount iran! I don't think you are seeing it the same as some. For instance, I don't see them firing of a missile the moment they should get one, but handing over something to the terrorists is a whole different story, this is being played out right now in lebanon but only on a smaller scale. they will find the proxy to strike given the tools to do so!

Sir evil/ Gaffer

They don't need to get the nuclear material from Iran, and you should KNOW that....they can get it from all the Russian lefover nuke programs that were never protected...

and in addition to this... the iranians are primarily Shiia---persians, Alqaeda is primarily Sunni/Pashtun sp?, I believe.... they are not compatible....

so that is just a bunch of hog wash and nothing a good imigration and border policy couldn't take care of, if we spent the time and damn money and smart thinking that we should be doing...to protect ourselves...

shoot we have timothy mcveighs right here in our own country under foot that can do damage...

so why in heavens tarnation would Iran give nuke material to the terrorist to smuggle in to our country to blow us up...huh? Why? So we can trace the material back to Iran and blow them in to smitherines for doing it...OH, I AM SO CERTAIN that is what IRAN WANTS...not!

Nuclear material is readily available on the black market Gaffer...

the BIG OL BAD GUYS can get it already and do not need to wait 5 years for Iran to develop something... Shoot, it is more than like the terrorists will get their nuclear material from the pakistanis LONG before they would get it from the iranians...

and again...this fear mongering crap is the same thing you pulled the last time with saddam and his wmd's...that the terrorists would be given them by him and would attack us with them and that is why he had to be removed crap that you all were touting...

well, SORRYYYYYYYYYYYY, NO MORE for me...listening to you fear mongering scaredy cats....

and please ...get a grip on reality and stop giving up what America stands for just because someone has told you to be afraid....
------------------------------------------------------------

And I know exactly what it is like to send a dad off to war, because my father served in vietnam...he was an Air force lifer and volunteered for the tour...and I clearly remember saying goodbye to him at kennedy International Airport...balling my eyes out thinking that I would never see my dad again as he was walking down the Tarmac.... because i just knew he was going to be killed in the war he was going to..... I remember how sick I was the whole time he was away....I remember being afraid, afraid that I would lose my dad...I cried all the time and lived in fear, fear of losing him...till the day he got home..... no 7 year old should have to go through that.....unless it is absolutely, the last resort imho...

Care4all
08-24-2006, 07:50 PM
sir evil....I was primarily still ranting at gaffer in that post...but at you too since you are also ..."one of them" war supporters... hahahahaha!


grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrr

I am a Dove, not a hawk...and always will be.

I understand that the world needs a little bit of both...some hawks and some doves.... but as with nature...the hawks are winning when put against a Dove...

and quite frankly, that sucs...

care

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 07:52 PM
well you did pull my chain...first off, are you saying that Iran is a threat to us as in the usa? are you saying that if iran gets nukes that they would use them against us?


Yes I am say they are a threat to us in the USA. If they get nukes they will use there suicide troops to deliver as many as they can to our harbors. They don't have missiles capable of reaching us here, but they can reach europe and Israel.


because if you are, your'e just plain nuts ;)......there would be... not a sand spec unturned in iran by us... iran would be blown in to smitherines by us...AND THEY KNOW IT.....!!! there is 5 to 7 years before their first nuke... is what i have read? if that is the case, alot of peaceful measures can be taken....


They are a lot closer than 7 years from having a bomb or they wouldn't be spouting so much. You need to step out of your I'm safe at home mentality and realize these guys want you dead. The want a apocolytic war and they don't who dies in it. Their fanatisism drives them and they are not worried about dying. Study up on the 12th imam. google it and see what you find out about his return.


so, what's the rush to kill women and children via ''collateral'' damage?


Collateral damage, don't yeah love that phrase. Its killing people and destroying homes. It happens in a war, especially when the enmy sets ups is combat positions in villages and next to homes and in schoold and hospitals.


and what's the rush to kill more of our soldiers?
I would just as soon none of our soldiers got killed. But that's also a fact of war. The important thing is that we lose a lot less than they do.


ALL MEASURES POSSIBLE should always be taken before ever doing that...


That's true, but you only talk for so long and appeasement gets you nothing. And talking is a part of these guys strategy.


why? because that is what is right and just, and that is what the PEOPLE of this country STANDS for....afterall, we are Americans.

Just because we are right and just doesn't mean we should talk forever or until our enemy decides the time is right to strike.



and i am sick of people that are just arrogant war mongerers, sending our kin to die, for NO LEGITIMATE THREAT AGAINST US, THE USA, AT ALL....

iran is the head of the snake that is islamofacism. They have many arms under many names al queda, hezbollah, hamas, so many I can't list them all here. They all have the same goal and even though they might not like each other they will work together against the west. They have been sneaking cells into this country for years. They even have language training in spanish so they can slip people across the border disguised as mexicans.



so what is this really all about?

Just a bunch of scardy cats....afraid of the boogey man, just got 15,000 american soldiers dead or mamed....


The boogey man is coming to get you darla, he's called islam and he wants you dead or converted to his religion.


and now you are chearleading for more war, more attacks, when NO ONE is any kind of military threat to us ALL OVER AGAIN.....korea after iran, then who? when will your gosh darn thirst for blood be over?

nk may collapse under their own poverty. Tho japan may help them along a little its just a left over from the cold war. Some of what all that peace talk gained us for the past fifty years. We won't even go into the millions that starve to death every year in nk just so lil kim can have his nukes. I would really like to see iran taken down from within, but I don't foresee that happening at least until we start it rolling.



and as far as you being a conservative yet an athiest...i am beginning to think that the WHOLE LOT OF THEM MORAL Religious Right REPUBLICANS are really athiests! boym was i fooled initially! now, it is so obvious... they are certainly not christianlike! :(

I am not a religious rightie. I have no religion. Religion is exactly why we are in this present situation. islamic fundimentalism. And the christian's allow it to go on because they want to love their enemies, and turn the other cheek. religion is a system of control for the masses. And islam uses it to its fullest capacity. I tell it like I see it. Some don't like to hear it.

have a nice evening.

I will


care

The hard hearted warhawk

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 08:09 PM
sir evil....I was primarily still ranting at gaffer in that post...but at you too since you are also ..."one of them" war supporters... hahahahaha!


grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrr

I am a Dove, not a hawk...and always will be.

I understand that the world needs a little bit of both...some hawks and some doves.... but as with nature...the hawks are winning when put against a Dove...

and quite frankly, that sucs...

care

LOL, unload all ya need care, it will do ya good! Us mere voices of concern have these boards for that very option. Have ya any idea how political discussion boards dramatically increased since 911? We are all frustrated in one way or another! Now don't go taking too much of what I said in my post against Gaffer, I am only putting myself in his mindset and giving a reply with that, he may have an entirely different version than me!

My post though is not about fear at all, and certainly not trying to say anyone need fear for a reason to attack. We all have different feelings on how it would play out with the "if's" ours are just a little different. You suggest terrorist can simply buy these weapons from Russia, but you also suggest that if we traced them back to iran we would just blow them out of the water.
What would happen if we traced them back to Russia? Russia will supply the little stuff with little to no worries of backlash, they have been doing this, but Russia doe's not want to get into a nuclear standoff with us, they are smarter than that as we are. I would not put nothing past iran even though I also believe the majority of the mouth is political posturing. I don't buy too much into all the tribal factions stuff either, I think more would you unite for their cause than given credit for. Just a bunch of my own babble though, simply an opinion...

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 08:10 PM
sir evil....I was primarily still ranting at gaffer in that post...but at you too since you are also ..."one of them" war supporters... hahahahaha!


grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrr

I am a Dove, not a hawk...and always will be.

I understand that the world needs a little bit of both...some hawks and some doves.... but as with nature...the hawks are winning when put against a Dove...

and quite frankly, that sucs...

care

If it weren't for the hawks the doves would cease to exist. I am not hateful I just look deeper into things and I don't like what i see there. I really could care less about politics other than how it immediately effects me but I do follow world events and I do see what the politicians are doing wrong or right. Some of them worry me.

if we have to fight we should do it at a time and place of our chosing.

Care4all
08-24-2006, 08:22 PM
gaffer...it is you, that needs to stop....stop being afraid...and i thank you for Nam, but you are being lead as a coward would be lead right now....imho.

you may think i have just a cushy little life....all you like! :)

now why don't you get out of your cushy but 'yellow' little corner that the administration has carefully put you in through fear, and do your own research on the situation...as i have done....
fool me once...shame on you, fool me twice shame on me!

i, for one, am going to take a deep breath, read as much as i can from ALL SIDES, and not let these cronies fool America again...thru their fear mongering...hopefully, america will not follow in their and your footsteps again, and get another 15k killed and mamed....for no justifiable reason.

this below is just one of the MANY articles out there on the subject...do SOME reading.....please....please don't let them do this to our children again!

IRAN is not an imminent threat to us... iran is not the war on terror....as far as a bomb on a boat,,, sure, that is in the works already, from what i've read, they expect it.... so why not protect our ports? why waste the resources and money in iraq or iran? money doesn't grow on trees, contrary to what the republicans the past 6 years have believed....

we need to be SMART, not trigger happy or blood thirsty....imo!

--------------------------------------------------
Iran Is Judged 10 Years From Nuclear Bomb
U.S. Intelligence Review Contrasts With Administration Statements

By Dafna Linzer
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 2, 2005; Page A01

A major U.S. intelligence review has projected that Iran is about a decade away from manufacturing the key ingredient for a nuclear weapon, roughly doubling the previous estimate of five years, according to government sources with firsthand knowledge of the new analysis.

The carefully hedged assessments, which represent consensus among U.S. intelligence agencies, contrast with forceful public statements by the White House. Administration officials have asserted, but have not offered proof, that Tehran is moving determinedly toward a nuclear arsenal. The new estimate could provide more time for diplomacy with Iran over its nuclear ambitions. President Bush has said that he wants the crisis resolved diplomatically but that "all options are on the table."


The new National Intelligence Estimate includes what the intelligence community views as credible indicators that Iran's military is conducting clandestine work. But the sources said there is no information linking those projects directly to a nuclear weapons program. What is clear is that Iran, mostly through its energy program, is acquiring and mastering technologies that could be diverted to bombmaking.

The estimate expresses uncertainty about whether Iran's ruling clerics have made a decision to build a nuclear arsenal, three U.S. sources said. Still, a senior intelligence official familiar with the findings said that "it is the judgment of the intelligence community that, left to its own devices, Iran is determined to build nuclear weapons."

continued: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/01/AR2005080101453.html

Sir Evil
08-24-2006, 08:30 PM
Ummm Care, was'nt it US intelligence what lead us to iraq? Is this not the same US intelligence in this article?

Just an observation....

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 08:53 PM
Sir evil/ Gaffer

They don't need to get the nuclear material from Iran, and you should KNOW that....they can get it from all the Russian lefover nuke programs that were never protected...
They can get some materials, which is what iran did, but it takes technology to put it all together. A little dirty bomb is not what they are looking for. The russians are making a lot of money providing iran with technology and materials and probablem chem and bio weapons as well.


and in addition to this... the iranians are primarily Shiia---persians, Alqaeda is primarily Sunni/Pashtun sp?, I believe.... they are not compatible....


The shea and sunni's hate each other, how ever, there is an old saying, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Its a old arabic saying. They will join together to fight against us. When not fighting us or Israel they will fight each other. But they will combine to fight us. Kind of like us and the soviets allied against germany.


so that is just a bunch of hog wash and nothing a good imigration and border policy couldn't take care of, if we spent the time and damn money and smart thinking that we should be doing...to protect ourselves...


Yes I would love to see a good strong border protection system put in effect. One of the things I think Bush let us down on the most.


shoot we have timothy mcveighs right here in our own country under foot that can do damage...


Yep we have enough home grown nut cases here to deal with, we don't need em coming in from outside as well.


so why in heavens tarnation would Iran give nuke material to the terrorist to smuggle in to our country to blow us up...huh? Why? So we can trace the material back to Iran and blow them in to smitherines for doing it...OH, I AM SO CERTAIN that is what IRAN WANTS...not!

iran would give a full fledged nuke to terrorists, not just materials. They would try to smuggle them in to blow up our cities. That would be the purpose. They want to kill as many people as posible to scare the rest into giving in to their demands. That's why its called terror. They don't have the missiles to strike us directly but they are working on that. nk is cranking out everything they can to deliver the systems to them. Did you know there were iranian reps in nk when they fired off all those missiles a few months back? you can't get it into your head that the iranians don't think like us. They know they will be blown up and that is part of the plan.

Nuclear material is readily available on the black market Gaffer...


yes they are, but processing them is a totally different matter.


the BIG OL BAD GUYS can get it already and do not need to wait 5 years for Iran to develop something... Shoot, it is more than like the terrorists will get their nuclear material from the pakistanis LONG before they would get it from the iranians...

You better hope they don't. pakistan is still a wild card. irran got most its materials from them and the russians. the BIG OLE BAD GUYS is an example of how serious you take it. These folks want to kill you. They don't care about your hopes and plans and your family and all the things you want to do with your life. They want you dead or converted through fear. You will have to wear your burka and walk behind your husband and you can't speak unless spoken too. You can't express your opinion in places like this. That is their goal. They state it in writing and speeches all the time. They are not cartoon characters or fictional movie people they are real and they are evil beyond anything you can imagine.

and again...this fear mongering crap is the same thing you pulled the last time with saddam and his wmd's...that the terrorists would be given them by him and would attack us with them and that is why he had to be removed crap that you all were touting...


I didn't pull anything with saddam and his wmd's. They were there and the russians removed them before the war started. They were either shipped back to russia or they are in syria. That comes from an iraqi general and captured documents.


well, SORRYYYYYYYYYYYY, NO MORE for me...listening to you fear mongering scaredy cats....

and please ...get a grip on reality and stop giving up what America stands for just because someone has told you to be afraid....

I don't fear monger, I pass on what I have learned which is more than the media does. I have a very firm grip on reality which is more than i can say for most of the people on here. I learned what fear is in vietnam. Its all in the mind. Letting your imagination go under a pressure situation is what creates fear.
------------------------------------------------------------

And I know exactly what it is like to send a dad off to war, because my father served in vietnam...he was an Air force lifer and volunteered for the tour...and I clearly remember saying goodbye to him at kennedy International Airport...balling my eyes out thinking that I would never see my dad again as he was walking down the Tarmac.... because i just knew he was going to be killed in the war he was going to..... I remember how sick I was the whole time he was away....I remember being afraid, afraid that I would lose my dad...I cried all the time and lived in fear, fear of losing him...till the day he got home..... no 7 year old should have to go through that.....unless it is absolutely, the last resort imho...

I can tell you a similar story about myself, but don't see as it would do any good to compare sad stories at this point. That would be something for another thread.

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 09:16 PM
well Care at least your not a left wing I hate Bush nut case. You do make some points and an effort. You actually try to come up with ideas.

Want some interesting reading. Try jihadwatch.org for info on what islam is about. The muslims hate that site. jihadwatchwatch.org (not sure about the org on this one) is the anti-jihadwatch site.

http://truthlaidbear.com/mideastcrisis.php is an Israeli site with lots of info of what's going on in the area. Has a lot of posters from both sides on it.

Michelle Malkin has a great site too. Completely right wing. There are a ton of linked site at these I mentioned that you can research too.

little green footballs is good.

and read up on the history of islam

islam has never experienced a Reformation, a Magna Carta or a Renosance. They have been stuck in the 7th century and not moved on. This is the mentality we deal with here. And the problem we face is that most of our politicians and most westerners don't realize this.

Gaffer
08-24-2006, 09:20 PM
Ummm Care, was'nt it US intelligence what lead us to iraq? Is this not the same US intelligence in this article?

Just an observation....

US intelligence is down playing things now after having stepped in it concerning the war. Of course they weren't expecting the part the russians played, which is another failure of intelligence.

That will teach our intelligence officials not to listen to the other countries intelligence officials. They need to get their own info. It means leaving the party town of Washington but what they hey, they have work to do now.

AnyOldIron
08-25-2006, 03:35 AM
Headline on Drudgereport.

It seems to be working out as I predicted. Israel will open the can of worms and Bush/we will bail them out.

Or rather Israel is desperate to drag the world into the shite, and we will find ourselves in the middle of yet another debacle.

First they use terrorism to combat terrorism and now they are threatening to create a whirlwind in the ME by attacking their neighbours...

If the west weren't such racists this nation would be deemed a rogue state by now....

AnyOldIron
08-25-2006, 04:04 AM
islam has never experienced a Reformation, a Magna Carta or a Renosance. They have been stuck in the 7th century and not moved on. This is the mentality we deal with here. And the problem we face is that most of our politicians and most westerners don't realize this.

Here's a chap who doesn't know many Muslims...

Fundamentalist Islam is certainly stuck in the C7th, just as fundamentalistist Christianity is. There is little difference between them.

Mainstream Islam is also in a similar position to mainstream Christianity. They have rules (moral codes they call it... lol) but aren't excessively repressive.

The problem is that many Islamic nations are poverty-stricken and authoritarian, and this feeds the Islamic fundamentalists. The west is partly to blame for this, it has been our actions that have maintained these repressive regimes.

An example is Saudi Arabia. During FDR's reign the US signed a deal with the regressive House of Saud stating that the US would maintain the House in exchange for continuing access to Arabia's oil supplies. Thus GW1.

Painting the Islamic world as primitive and barbaric, whilst the west is a shining beacon of greatness is also a myth. The west is quite adapt to turning a blind eye to its own barbaric and primitive actions whilst highlighting others.

At the moment, the world is stuck in a catch22 position, stuck between barbaric extremists in the west, barbaric extremists in the Muslim world and barbaric extremists in Israel.

The problem we face is that most of the west doesn't realise this. They have become adapt at ignoring it....

Gaffer
08-25-2006, 07:48 AM
islam has never experienced a Reformation, a Magna Carta or a Renosance. They have been stuck in the 7th century and not moved on. This is the mentality we deal with here. And the problem we face is that most of our politicians and most westerners don't realize this.

Here's a chap who doesn't know many Muslims...

Fundamentalist Islam is certainly stuck in the C7th, just as fundamentalistist Christianity is. There is little difference between them.

Mainstream Islam is also in a similar position to mainstream Christianity. They have rules (moral codes they call it... lol) but aren't excessively repressive.

The problem is that many Islamic nations are poverty-stricken and authoritarian, and this feeds the Islamic fundamentalists. The west is partly to blame for this, it has been our actions that have maintained these repressive regimes.

An example is Saudi Arabia. During FDR's reign the US signed a deal with the regressive House of Saud stating that the US would maintain the House in exchange for continuing access to Arabia's oil supplies. Thus GW1.

Painting the Islamic world as primitive and barbaric, whilst the west is a shining beacon of greatness is also a myth. The west is quite adapt to turning a blind eye to its own barbaric and primitive actions whilst highlighting others.

At the moment, the world is stuck in a catch22 position, stuck between barbaric extremists in the west, barbaric extremists in the Muslim world and barbaric extremists in Israel.

The problem we face is that most of the west doesn't realise this. They have become adapt at ignoring it....

Yes I don't know any muslims, I don't want to know them.

As for their being barbaric, name a muslim contribution to technology, science, medicine or anything else for that matter.

Fundimental islam and fundimental christianity are apples and oranges.

You sympathize with the arabs but you hate the jews? is there a reason for this? Are you a british arab?

There will not be democracy in the ME until islam has been taken down. That's the controling factor of the ruling classes there.

AnyOldIron
08-25-2006, 07:58 AM
Yes I don't know any muslims, I don't want to know them.

This says it all....

As for their being barbaric, name a muslim contribution to technology, science, medicine or anything else for that matter.

The telescope, the pendulum, the watch, the mariner's compass, soap, the windmill, the astrolobe, many innovations in mathematics (including creating the number 0), etc etc etc

Fundimental islam and fundimental christianity are apples and oranges.

No, they are exactly the same.

You sympathize with the arabs but you hate the jews? is there a reason for this? Are you a british arab?

?? I don't hate Jews, though it seems you hate Muslims?

No, I'm white British, I'm just not prejudiced and ill-informed.

There will not be democracy in the ME until islam has been taken down. That's the controling factor of the ruling classes there.

Empty rhetoric from an empty head...

Damocles
08-25-2006, 08:21 AM
The telescope, the pendulum, the watch, the mariner's compass, soap, the windmill, the astrolobe, many innovations in mathematics (including creating the number 0), etc etc etc


Okay, the astrolabe was invented by either Hipparchus or Hypatia, not a Muslim.

Hans Lippershey was the man who invented the telescope, also not a Muslim.

The pendulum itself has no attributable inventor, but the many uses for it such as clocks etc are almost invariably attributed to europeans.. I saw not even one muslim name associated with the pendulum.

The watch well, here read it yourself:

http://www.paralumun.com/watchhistory.htm


I can keep going. Can you produce a page that shows that these things were actually attributable to Muslim inventors?

AnyOldIron
08-25-2006, 08:28 AM
http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/history/muslim_inventors.html

Gaffer
08-25-2006, 08:31 AM
Thank you damocles, saves me a lot of trouble.

As I said islam has not contributed anything to world civilization except war and murder. It was developed and used as a means of controlling the population. Its still used for that.

muslims will take and use what is developed in the west, but they don't invent or create anything on their own. You can't be a scientist and be a fundimentalist.

AnyOldIron
08-25-2006, 08:34 AM
http://www.1001inventions.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=main.viewSection&intSectionID=309

AnyOldIron
08-25-2006, 08:36 AM
As I said islam has not contributed anything to world civilization except war and murder. It was developed and used as a means of controlling the population. Its still used for that.

Ignorant fuck, follow this link....

http://www.1001inventions.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=main.viewSection&intSectionID=309

Cypress
08-25-2006, 08:37 AM
Thank you damocles, saves me a lot of trouble.

As I said islam has not contributed anything to world civilization except war and murder. It was developed and used as a means of controlling the population. Its still used for that.

muslims will take and use what is developed in the west, but they don't invent or create anything on their own. You can't be a scientist and be a fundimentalist.

As I said islam has not contributed anything to world civilization except war and murder

You might want to re-enroll in remedial world history.

While europe was living in the theocracy of the dark ages, muslim Arabs were living in an arab goldent-age of mathematics and astronmy. Our numberic system and much of our mathematics were derived from the arabs.

Our european ancestors were pulled out of the dark ages due, in part, to arab science and mathmatics.

uscitizen
08-25-2006, 08:42 AM
The islamic people hled on th the ancient knowledge when the europeans had descended into the dark ages. Europeans rediscovered the knowledge that the Islamic people had held onto. As to who discovered what, I dunno. But things would be very different if the Islamic people had not held onto that knowledge for the Europeans to rediscover.

AnyOldIron
08-25-2006, 08:42 AM
1. Legend tells of an Arab goat herder who noticed their change in mood when his goats ate a certain berry. He boiled the berries and came up with the first coffee.

2. The ancient Greeks thought light emitted from the eye (like a laser) causing us to see. It was a Muslim mathematician in the 10th Century that instead realized light entered into the eye. Astronomer and physicist Ibn al-Haitham invented the first pin-hole camera after observing light entering a hole in the shutters. The smaller the hole was, the clearer the image.


3. The game of chess we know today evolved from the players of Persia earlier than the 10th century. The rook comes from the Persian word rukh, meaning chariot.

4. The "first in flight" may not have been Wright. A thousand years before Kitty Hawk, Muslim poet, astronomer, musician and engineer Abbas ibn Firnas, made several attempts to construct a machine that would fly. First in 852, he used cloth stretched by wooden struts inventing what is thought to be the first parachute. At the age of 70, a machine of silk and eagle feathers held him aloft for 10 minutes after he leaped from a cliff. Baghdad airport is named after him.

5. It was Islamic ritual to bath and wash during times in Europe when bathing was considered bad for your health. Arabs originated the general recipe for soap we still use today: vegetable oils with sodium hydroxide and aromatic oils such as orange or thyme. England saw its first shampoo thanks to a Muslim.

6. Around the year 800, alchemy was converted into chemistry by Islam's foremost scientist, Jabir ibn Hayyan. He invented many of the basic procedures and equipment still in use today - distillation, evaporation, crystallisation, purification, filtration and oxidisation. He discovered sulphuric and nitric acid. He invented the alembic still, for the creation of perfumes and alcoholic spirits. Ibn Hayyan was the founder of modern chemistry and a forerunner of the scientific method.

7. The crank-shaft, one of the most critical mechanical inventions of all time, central to the automobile engine, was created by an ingenious Muslim engineer called al-Jazari. His device could elevate water for irrigation around the year 1200. His Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices documents his inventive uses for valves and pistons, mechanical clocks and the first-ever combination lock. He is called the father of robotics.

8. The process of quilting was introduced to Europe after Crusaders saw Muslim warriors wearing dual-layer shirts with layers of straw in between. The quilted shirts were an effective form of protection in battle as well as a form of insulation. It helped the Crusaders avoid the chafing resulting from their metal armour. Quilting became a cottage industry in the colder climates such as Britain and Holland.

9. The pointed arch of European Gothic cathedral fame was borrowed from Islamic architecture. It was superior to the rounded arch used by the Romans and Normans, and allowed for much grander buildings. Other inventions by Muslims included ribbed vaulting, dome-building techniques and rose windows. Muslim genius was also behind the building of Europe's castles with their "arrow slits, battlements, a barbican and parapets". The square towers and keeps of Europe proved to be inferior to the more easily defended round ones. "Henry V's castle architect was a Muslim."

10. The 10th century Muslim surgeon called al-Zahrawi designed many of our modern surgical instruments still in use today: scalpels, bone saws, forceps, and fine scissors for eye surgery. He established by accident that catgut used for internal stitches dissolves away naturally (his monkey ate his lute strings!) and determined it can also be used to encase capsules of medicine. In the 13th century, 300 years before William Harvey's assertions, another Muslim doctor named Ibn Nafis charted the circulation of the blood. We have Muslim doctors also to thank for inventing anaesthetics of opium and alcohol mixes and hollow needles to extract from the eye cataracts, which is a technique still in use today.

11. Each year, when the Arabian desert dried up, the only way for the people to survive was to perform the backbreaking tasks of drawing water and grinding grain by hand. In 634, a clever Muslim inventor built the first windmill, which tapped on the only source of energy the desert could offer - a wind which blew steadily for months at a time. The first windmills had six or twelve sails covered in fabric or palm leaves. They provided power to draw water for irrigation, and turn mill stones for grinding corn. Europe wouldn't see its first windmill for another 500 years.

12. The technique of inoculation, the introduction of a pathogen into a living organism to stimulate the production of antibodies, "was not invented by Pasteur" but originated in the Muslim world and was introduced to the European world by an English ambassador's wife by way of Istanbul in 1724. "Children in Turkey were vaccinated with cowpox to fight the deadly smallpox at least 50 years before the West discovered it".

13. In 953, the Sultan of Egypt asked for a pen that would not leak all over his clothes and hands. The fountain pen was invented in which the ink would be held in a reservoir and be delivered to the paper (or papyrus) by gravity.

14. The style of our numerals (in the west) is Arabic and first appeared in print in the work of Muslim mathematicians around 825. From the Muslim world came algorithms and much of the theory of trigonometry, the word algebra and some of its principles. Modern cryptology owes its basis and discovery of frequency analysis to Al-Kindi. The achievements of Muslim math scholars were imported into Europe 300 years later by the Italian mathematician Fibonacci.

15. The concept of the three-course meal - "soup, followed by fish or meat, then fruit and nuts" was brought to Cordoba in the 9th century from Iraq, Ali ibn Nafi (also known as Ziryab - Blackbird). He also introduced crystal glasses, invented by a Muslim after experiments with rock crystal.

16. Thanks to the advanced medieval weaving techniques in the Muslim world, new dyes from Islamic chemistry and a developed sense of pattern born of the necessity to design without using images of Mohammad in Islamic art. Europe's floors were unclean and unadorned until Arabian and Persian carpets were introduced.

17. The idea for our modern checking accounts came from the Arab world. To avoid having to transport money across dangerous terrain, a written vow was honored to pay for goods upon delivery. "In the 9th century, a Muslim businessman could cash a check in China drawn on his bank in Baghdad."

18. Ahead in Astronomy: 500 years before Galileo, Muslim scholars accepted that the Earth was a sphere. The astronomer Ibn Hazm in the 9th century said "The Sun is always vertical to a particular spot on Earth", and therein found his proof. He and his colleagues were so accurate in predicting the Earth's circumference that their calculations turned out to be less than 200km off. Al-Idrisi brought a globe to the court of King Roger of Sicily in 1139 spreading the ideas westward.

19. The Chinese invented gunpowder and fireworks, but Arabs first formulated the chemical process that led to its fitness for military battle. Muslim bombs terrified the Crusaders in the 15th century -- both their rockets, and their torpedos that could blow up ships.

20. Medieval Europe only had gardens for food and herbs until the the Arabs spread the notion that gardens could be places for "beauty and meditation" -- the first influence coming to Muslim Spain in the 11th century. Flowers that originated in Muslim gardens include the carnation and the tulip.

http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/content/view/127/34/

uscitizen
08-25-2006, 08:43 AM
BTW , Gaffer I apologize for thinking you were a Dixie clone. But no apology for the other stuff I said ;)

Gaffer
08-25-2006, 08:43 AM
http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/history/muslim_inventors.html

That's really funny. did you get that from some islamic groups site like CAIR or something.

When I got down to the arabs invented gunpowder I really lost it.

Too funny.

we have history revisionists here too. They are called liberals.

Cypress
08-25-2006, 08:46 AM
That's really funny. did you get that from some islamic groups site like CAIR or something.

When I got down to the arabs invented gunpowder I really lost it.

Too funny.

we have history revisionists here too. They are called liberals.

Didn't go to college, did you? This is common knowledge.

The arabs invented algebra, our numeric system, the decimal system, and other forms of mathematics and science that ultimately aided the europeans to emerge from the theocratic dark ages beginning around the 13th century.

AnyOldIron
08-25-2006, 08:47 AM
That's really funny. did you get that from some islamic groups site like CAIR or something.

When I got down to the arabs invented gunpowder I really lost it.

Too funny.

we have history revisionists here too. They are called liberals.

Ignorant fucker.....

19. The Chinese invented gunpowder and fireworks, but Arabs first formulated the chemical process that led to its fitness for military battle. Muslim bombs terrified the Crusaders in the 15th century -- both their rockets, and their torpedos that could blow up ships.

Gaffer
08-25-2006, 08:48 AM
BTW , Gaffer I apologize for thinking you were a Dixie clone. But no apology for the other stuff I said ;)

No problem there.

Cypress
08-25-2006, 08:52 AM
Gaffer, you should either enroll in some college level history classes, or google for yourself.

I suggest the search words: arabs, mathematics, astronomy, and algebra.

Then, to see how Arab mathematical and scientific knowledge spread to europe, and woke it up from the Dark ages, I suggest combining those words, with the word Moors.

You do know who the Moors were, don't you?

AnyOldIron
08-25-2006, 08:53 AM
Commander of Rhetoric?

More like Captain Ignorant....

uscitizen
08-25-2006, 08:56 AM
No problem there.

Thanks Gaffer , that proves you are not a Dixie clone :)

Damocles
08-25-2006, 08:57 AM
The islamic people hled on th the ancient knowledge when the europeans had descended into the dark ages. Europeans rediscovered the knowledge that the Islamic people had held onto. As to who discovered what, I dunno. But things would be very different if the Islamic people had not held onto that knowledge for the Europeans to rediscover.
From everything I read they held the knowledge but didn't advance it. Basically Mathematics and science were on hold during that period of time.

Cypress
08-25-2006, 08:59 AM
Commander of Rhetoric?

More like Captain Ignorant....

Don't take gafffer's woefully inadequate knowledge of world history, to represent americans at large .

We have the best universities, and some of the best higher education in the world. The contributions of the arabs is well known in the United States among the educated.

Gaffer
08-25-2006, 08:59 AM
Most of what you posted is either pre-islam science or just as islam was taking hold among the arabs. What did islam, not arabs, create and invent beyond the 10th century? They take what is discovered by someone else and turn it into a destructive force.

Damocles
08-25-2006, 09:01 AM
Many of those "inventions" are simply legends. The whole idea that Arabs invented gun powder is total garbage. We can prove without any doubt that Chinese people were the first to use that substance.

Cypress
08-25-2006, 09:01 AM
From everything I read they held the knowledge but didn't advance it. Basically Mathematics and science were on hold during that period of time.

Arabs inheritied some the the greek sciences and mathematics. And ultimately passed it on to europe.

But, the Arab, and Indian hindus were responble from many mathematical and scientific advances beyond the greeks. This knowledge was ultimately passed onto europe, through the Moors.

Gaffer
08-25-2006, 09:05 AM
From everything I read they held the knowledge but didn't advance it. Basically Mathematics and science were on hold during that period of time.

They didn't advance it because islam would not allow it. It was a critical point in history. Europe finally threw off the choke hold of the catholic church and the arabs fell under the hold of islam, which holds them to this day.

Any fundimentalist religion is detremental to society.

Cypress
08-25-2006, 09:07 AM
They didn't advance it because islam would not allow it. It was a critical point in history. Europe finally threw off the choke hold of the catholic church and the arabs fell under the hold of islam, which holds them to this day.

Any fundimentalist religion is detremental to society.


Please stop embarrassing america, with you lack of knowledge.

Cypress
08-25-2006, 09:13 AM
Most of what you posted is either pre-islam science or just as islam was taking hold among the arabs. What did islam, not arabs, create and invent beyond the 10th century? They take what is discovered by someone else and turn it into a destructive force.

Most of what you posted is either pre-islam science or just as islam was taking hold among the arabs.

And the backpedaling begins.....

Please stick to your original assertion that muslims "never" invented ANYTHING but war and violence.

Trying to quietly tip-toe away from your original assertion, is quite obvious.

Algebra was inveted by muslim scholars two centuries after Mohamed.

I agree, that in modern arab history, knowledge and science has been hampered by colonialism, despotic rulers, and theocrats.

Damocles
08-25-2006, 09:18 AM
Arabs inheritied some the the greek sciences and mathematics. And ultimately passed it on to europe.

But, the Arab, and Indian hindus were responble from many mathematical and scientific advances beyond the greeks. This knowledge was ultimately passed onto europe, through the Moors.
I do know that "zero" was given to us by Asian Arabs... You know the ones further east... Persia gave us Chess... At least from everything that I learned they did.

Telescopes though? We literally know the name of the guy who created the first one and "Hans" is not a Muslim name. Nope. Gunpowder? Nope again, that's Chinese. Coffee? Maybe.

Alexandria gave us many of those mathematical advances and it was hugely multicultural, a true center of learning that we should try to emulate constantly...

Cypress
08-25-2006, 09:24 AM
I do know that "zero" was given to us by Asian Arabs... You know the ones further east... Persia gave us Chess... At least from everything that I learned they did.

Telescopes though? We literally know the name of the guy who created the first one and "Hans" is not a Muslim name. Nope. Gunpowder? Nope again, that's Chinese. Coffee? Maybe.

Alexandria gave us many of those mathematical advances and it was hugely multicultural, a true center of learning that we should try to emulate constantly...

I'm no expert. But, I agree that in the dark ages, scientific knowledge and advancement came from the middle east and asia. In particular, the arabs kep the science of the greeks, and advanced it. While europe was stuck in the ignorance of the dark ages.

Without the knoweldge of the greeks retained in the muslim world, and passed onto us, we would have had to re-invent and re-discover everthing from scratch. and the world would probably still be in a pre-industrial age.

Gaffer
08-25-2006, 09:25 AM
Ancient contributions are fine and can be debated as to who did what and created what. My point was that islam has contributed nothing in the past 1000 years.

uscitizen
08-25-2006, 09:28 AM
Oil ?

Damocles
08-25-2006, 09:29 AM
Oil ?
LOL.

Cypress
08-25-2006, 09:31 AM
Ancient contributions are fine and can be debated as to who did what and created what. My point was that islam has contributed nothing in the past 1000 years.

Again, woefully incorrect.

Not only was the moorish occupation of spain within the last thousand years (it was the Moors who taught europeans about mathematice, and science of the greek and muslim worlds), but the Arabs were superb navigators with their knowledge of astromy. Trans-oceanic european navigation in the 15th and 16th century, was based in part on knowledge inheritied from the muslim arabs.

I would say since the european rennassaince, and partucularly since the colonial era, the muslim world has been mired in stagnation.

Gaffer
08-25-2006, 09:34 AM
Oil ?

They were sitting on it. Not discovered by them or put to use.

uscitizen
08-25-2006, 09:52 AM
True but that is very relevent to the origional concept of this thread Gaffer.

Hermes Thoth
03-10-2007, 09:00 AM
Yes it's true, destroy or be destroyed is what it will come down to!


Or not. Maybe there's not supposed to be a new world order. Or maybe it will come on its own, when people actually change, not when a group of confused elites believe they can make the world better through forced integration combined with favoritism towards certain peoples, and discrimination against others.

Israel is fighting for statehood at the same time they tell everyone else that the world should be integrated and borders dissolved.

uscitizen
03-11-2007, 03:30 AM
I think Israel may be more of an instigator of violence and conflict than a contributor to peace in the middle east problems.

Hermes Thoth
04-27-2007, 11:21 AM
Yes it's true, destroy or be destroyed is what it will come down to!

Nihilists are too intelligent to value their own suvival. they're too "smart".

OrnotBitwise
04-27-2007, 11:24 AM
Nihilists are too intelligent to value their own suvival. they're too "smart".Begone, foul necromancer! This thread had died yet you could not let it rest in peace.

Hermes Thoth
04-28-2007, 04:50 AM
Begone, foul necromancer! This thread had died yet you could not let it rest in peace.

I'm illustrating where nihilism makes it's ugly appearance in common discourse.

Nihilism = self hate