What is the driving force of Islamic Jihad

[klaatu]

The Koran of course ...

"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . . [I]f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers"(2:190–93).

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not" (2:216).


"It is the same whether or not you forwarn them [the unbelievers], they will have no faith" (2:6).

"God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (2:15).

A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them (2:24).

They will be "rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection" (2:85).

"God's curse be upon the infidels!" (2:89).

"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits [them]" (2:90).

"God is the enemy of the unbelievers" (2:98).

"The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews], and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2:105).

"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter" (2:114).

"Those to whom We [God] have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost" (2:122).

"[We] shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate" (2:126).

"The East and the West are God's. He guides whom He will to a straight path" (2:142).

"Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, but you are not aware of them" (2:154).

"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2:162).

"They shall sigh with remorse, but shall never come out of the Fire" (2:168).

"The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing" (2:172).

"Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2:175).

"How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism" (2:176).


"They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith—if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2:217–18).

"God does not guide the evil-doers" (2:258).

"God does not guide the unbelievers" (2:264).

"The evil-doers shall have none to help them" (2:270).

"God gives guidance to whom He will" (2:272).

"Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge" (3:5).

"As for the unbelievers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them from God's judgment. They shall become fuel for the Fire" (3:10).

"Say to the unbelievers: ‘You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell—an evil resting place!'" (3:12).

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam. . . . He that denies God's revelations should know that swift is God's reckoning" (3:19).

"Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful—he that does this has nothing to hope for from God—except in self-defense" (3:28).

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (3:118).

"If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy.We alternate these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihilate the infidels" (3:140).

"Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition. . . .We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their home" (3:149-51).

"Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle: ‘Had they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause them to regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass" (3:156).

"Never think that those who were slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, and well provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those they left behind, who have not yet joined them, have nothing to fear or to regret; rejoicing in God's grace and bounty. God will not deny the faithful their reward" (3:169).

"Let not the unbelievers think that We prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them" (3:178).

"Those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain: I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a reward from God; God holds the richest recompense. Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief. Hell shall be their home, a dismal resting place" (3:195–96).

"God has cursed them in their unbelief" (4:46).

"God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of the Scriptures was given. They believe in idols and false gods and say of the infidels: ‘These are better guided than the believers'" (4:50–51).

"Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise" (4:55–56).

"Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a pastime" (5:57).

"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. We have stirred among them enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection" (5:65).

"God does not guide the unbelievers" (5:67).

"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers" (5:69).

"You see many among them making friends with unbelievers. Evil is that to which their souls prompt them. They have incurred the wrath of God and shall endure eternal torment. . . .You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are those who say: ‘We are Christians'" (5:80–82).

"[T]hose that disbelieve and deny Our revelations shall become the inmates of Hell" (5:86).

"[T]hey deny the truth when it is declared to them: but they shall learn the consequences of their scorn" (6:5).

"We had made them more powerful in the land than yourselves [the Meccans], sent down for them abundant water from the sky and gave them rivers that rolled at their feet. Yet because they sinned We destroyed them all and raised up other generations after them. If We sent down to you a Book inscribed on real parchment and they touched it with their own hands, the unbelievers would still assert: ‘This is but plain sorcery.' They ask: ‘Why has no angel been sent down to him [Muhammad]?' If We had sent down an angel, their fate would have been sealed and they would have never been reprieved" (6:5–8).

"Who is more wicked than the man who invents falsehoods about God or denies His revelations?" (6:21).

"Some of them listen to you. But We have cast veils over their hearts and made them hard of hearing lest they understand your words. They will believe in none of Our signs, even if they see them one and all. When they come to argue with you the unbelievers say: ‘This is nothing but old fictitious tales.' They forbid it and depart from it. They ruin none but themselves, though they do not perceive it. If you could see them when they are set before the Fire! They will say: ‘Would that we could return! Then we would not deny the revelations of our Lord and would be true believers' 6:23–27).

[klaatu]

"But if they were sent back, they would return to that which they have been forbidden. They are liars all" (6:29).

"Had God pleased He would have given them guidance, one and all" (6:35).

"Deaf and dumb are those that deny Our revelations: they blunder about in darkness. God confounds whom He will, and guides to a straight path whom He pleases." (6:39)

"[T]heir hearts were hardened, and Satan made their deeds seem fair to them. And when they had clean forgotten Our admonition We granted them all that they desired; but just as they were rejoicing in what they were given, We suddenly smote them and they were plunged into utter despair. Thus were the evil-doers annihilated. Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe!" (6:43–45).

"[T]hose that deny Our revelations shall be punished for their misdeeds" (6:49).

"Such are those that are damned by their own sins. They shall drink scalding water and be sternly punished for their unbelief" (6:70).

"Could you but see the wrongdoers when death overwhelms them! With hands outstretched, the angels will say: ‘Yield up your souls. You shall be rewarded with the scourge of shame this day, for you have said of God what is untrue and scorned His revelations" (6:93).

"Avoid the pagans. Had God pleased, they would not have worshipped idols. . . . We will turn away their hearts and eyes from the Truth since they refused to believe in it at first. We will let them blunder about in their wrongdoing. If We sent the angels down to them, and caused the dead to speak to them, . . . and ranged all things in front of them, they would still not believe, unless God willed otherwise. . . . Thus have We assigned for every prophet an enemy: the devils among men and jinn, who inspire each other with vain and varnished falsehoods. But had your Lord pleased, they would not have done so. Therefore leave them to their own inventions, so that the hearts of those who have no faith in the life to come may be inclined to what they say and, being pleased, persist in their sinful ways" (6:107–12).

"The devils will teach their votaries to argue with you. If you obey them you shall yourselves become idolaters. . . . God will humiliate the transgressors and mete out to them a grievous punishment for their scheming" (6:121–25).

"If God wills to guide a man, He opens his bosom to Islam. But if he pleases to confound him, He makes his bosom small and narrow as though he were climbing up to heaven. Thus shall God lay the scourge on the unbelievers" (6:125).

[klaatu]

Houston ... we have a problem ....

[robdastud]

holyrollers

[Cancel7]

Houston ... we have a problem ....


I'll tell you something Klatu, I think you have a lot of nerve.

How about I go gather a bunch of violent shit from the bible that tells of graphic rape and murder and beatings, all of women?

And then say, we have a problem because obviously the men who are abusing and raping and murdering women in this country every six minutes, are doing it because the bible told them to. Or maybe I should post the story of how two daughters get their father drunk and then do him, I think it's called Lot's of incest, or something like that? And then we can blame all the child abuse that happens in this country on the bible.

I think that you religious people are the biggest hypocrites that ever were put on this earth. Truly. And I think you all would do well to worry about the big-ass planks stuck in your own eyes, before you go pointing your fingers anywhere else. Remember, there's three pointing back at you.
Sorry, but that's the way it is.

[uscitizen]

silly me , I thought the centuries of persecution, killing, invading by the Christians might have had something to do with it.....

[Jarod]

Klaatu, hows that egg, still on your face I see!

[klaatu]

I'll tell you something Klatu, I think you have a lot of nerve.

How about I go gather a bunch of violent shit from the bible that tells of graphic rape and murder and beatings, all of women?

And then say, we have a problem because obviously the men who are abusing and raping and murdering women in this country every six minutes, are doing it because the bible told them to. Or maybe I should post the story of how two daughters get their father drunk and then do him, I think it's called Lot's of incest, or something like that? And then we can blame all the child abuse that happens in this country on the bible.

I think that you religious people are the biggest hypocrites that ever were put on this earth. Truly. And I think you all would do well to worry about the big-ass planks stuck in your own eyes, before you go pointing your fingers anywhere else. Remember, there's three pointing back at you.
Sorry, but that's the way it is.



Great! i knew I would get this response ... you see Darla my dear ... this was taken from an Atheist Site ... not a Christian one ...

http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/200512_an_atheist_manifesto/P1100/

And the reason I posted this was...again to get this response ...

And another .. it does match up with the facts .. there is an extreme faction of the Islamic Community that follows this outline ....

[klaatu]

Klaatu, hows that egg, still on your face I see!

uhmm.. once again .. no ...

[Jarod]

uhmm.. once again .. no ...



Egg Egg Egg...


Mud Mud Mud...

I reissued my challange... care to accept?

[Cancel7]

Great! i knew I would get this response ... you see Darla my dear ... this was taken from an Atheist Site ... not a Christian one ...

http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/200512_an_atheist_manifesto/P1100/

And the reason I posted this was...again to get this response ...

And another .. it does match up with the facts .. there is an extreme faction of the Islamic Community that follows this outline ....

You're acting like you proved something, what might that be? I dont' care where you got it from, the source of origin is the Koran. And I can get shit just as messed up from the Bible. Proving what? That all religious nuts are prone to violence and it's a bad idea to turn your back on them? Well, I already knew that. That's one of the many reasons I don't go to church. They're as liable to decide I'm a heathen and beat me to death in the name of Jesus, as they are to pilfer my wallet. I don't trust those people man, no matter what God they pray to.

So, were you interested in the graphic details of the Lot story? I can still post them. It's some juicy stuff. Then there's this one guy who gives his concubine to a couple of thugs to be raped, and then the next morning after she's brutally raped, he takes her home and cuts her into pieces. Maybe I should post that one. If everyone's done eating I mean. I wouldn't want anyone to puke when I start posting some Christian Love! Give me that old time religion baby.

[uscitizen]

And Lot was the guy worth saving ? Kinda makes you wonder.
But it is all written by hands controlled by god and all truth to live by.....

[robdastud]

i agree darla, the koran bible and whatever else is all a joke and there would be far less wars if ther ewas no religion... people wouldn't hate people and people wouldn't fly planes into buildings, etc etc..

[robdastud]

they would sell liquor on sunday's, and life would be good.

[Cypress]

Don't be a Jerry Falwell.

If you're going to boil this down to some crazy shit written in the Koran, we have, we have truly lost any opportunity to "win" this war on terror. Nutbags from all religions can point to crazy shit in the bible, the koran, or the torah, as inspiration for violent acts. Those are only symptons and excuses, not causes.


Thats' not the fundemental driving force of al qaeda's ideology.

I suggest reading the seminal non-partisan works on al qaedas goals, motivations and ideology - by Michel Scheuer, former head of the Bin Ladin Unit at the CIA.

1) "Through our enemies eyes", 2002 by Michael Scheuer
2) "Imperial Hubris", 2004, by Michael Scheuer.


BTW: Michael Scheuer is a Reagan Republican.

[IHateGovernment]

ou speak of Rastafari,
but how can you justify belief
In a god that's left you behind?
You've simply filled the gap
between the upper and lower class
And your faith merely keeps you in line. In line yeah
An amalgamation of jewish scripture
and christian thought.
What will that get you? Not a fuck of a lot.
Take a look at your promised land.
Your deed is that gun in your hand.
Mt. Zion's a minefield. The West Bank. The Gaza Strip.
Soon to be parking lots f
or American tourists and fascist cops yeah.


Fuck zionism.

Fuck militarism.

Fuck americanism.

Fuck nationalism.

Fuck religion.

Fuck religion.

Fuck religion.

Fuck religion.

[Cancel7]

And Lot was the guy worth saving ? Kinda makes you wonder.
But it is all written by hands controlled by god and all truth to live by.....

Well USC, I don't think you get it ok? This is a biblical story, and Lot is the man. It certainly was not his fault! His daughters got him drunk and then basically raped him. You know how women are known for that! I mean, today they use the date rape drug, and how many of them are in jail for slipping it into some poor, unsuspecting guy's drink, and then having their way with him? Sometimes it's a stranger in a bar, other times, they slip it into their brother's OJ in the morning, and next thing you know he's on his back! Sluts.

[Cancel7]

i agree darla, the koran bible and whatever else is all a joke and there would be far less wars if ther ewas no religion... people wouldn't hate people and people wouldn't fly planes into buildings, etc etc..


I think people would still hate people, because some people are just hatefull. But, I think there would be a lot less of it. So many wars are started because of religious conflict. And all of them are justified one way or the other, by God. According to some people.

[Cancel7]

ou speak of Rastafari,
but how can you justify belief
In a god that's left you behind?
You've simply filled the gap
between the upper and lower class
And your faith merely keeps you in line. In line yeah
An amalgamation of jewish scripture
and christian thought.
What will that get you? Not a fuck of a lot.
Take a look at your promised land.
Your deed is that gun in your hand.
Mt. Zion's a minefield. The West Bank. The Gaza Strip.
Soon to be parking lots f
or American tourists and fascist cops yeah.


Fuck zionism.

Fuck militarism.

Fuck americanism.

Fuck nationalism.

Fuck religion.

Fuck religion.

Fuck religion.

Fuck religion.


I googled this, and a lot of it is pretty funny.

[klaatu]

Don't be a Jerry Falwell.

If you're going to boil this down to some crazy shit written in the Koran, we have, we have truly lost any opportunity to "win" this war on terror. Nutbags from all religions can point to crazy shit in the bible, the koran, or the torah, as inspiration for violent acts. Those are only symptons and excuses, not causes.


Thats' not the fundemental driving force of al qaeda's ideology.

I suggest reading the seminal non-partisan works on al qaedas goals, motivations and ideology - by Michel Scheuer, former head of the Bin Ladin Unit at the CIA.

1) "Through our enemies eyes", 2002 by Michael Scheuer
2) "Imperial Hubris", 2004, by Michael Scheuer.


BTW: Michael Scheuer is a Reagan Republican.


no .. the driving force is Jihad .... it has been stated several times by OBL and most recently Mahmoud Ahmadinejad .... you just choose to ignore the obvous.

[IHateGovernment]

Propagandhi kicks ass. Lefty loonies but still entertaining.

[Cypress]

no .. the driving force is Jihad .... it has been stated several times by OBL and most recently Mahmoud Ahmadinejad .... you just choose to ignore the obvous.

(sigh......)

Jihad is a tool, not a cause.

Read Michael Scheuer if you care to learn. He's the respected former Chief of the CIA's Bin Ladin Unit. He's forgotten more about Al Qaeda, than you and I have ever learned put together.

[IHateGovernment]

Jihad just means struggle. Jihad doesn't need to be violent. One can declare jihad against over eating or smoking.

Obviously there must be something to struggle against. Terrorists jihad against perceived oppression both real and unreal.

[klaatu]

I'll tell you something Klatu, I think you have a lot of nerve.


And then say, we have a problem because obviously the men who are abusing and raping and murdering women in this country every six minutes, are doing it because the bible told them to. Or maybe I should post the story of how two daughters get their father drunk and then do him, I think it's called Lot's of incest, or something like that? And then we can blame all the child abuse that happens in this country on the bible..

You know what Darla .. I needed to read this once again .. because you what.. this very thing takes place on this and the other site at least every other day... i.e. see your little buddy's posts ... robdawg ... and all I see you do is agree with him....

But post something derogatory about Islam...and boy oh boy all you lefty's come ruinning to their defense ....

[Cypress]

(sigh......)

Jihad is a tool, not a cause.

Read Michael Scheuer if you care to learn. He's the respected former Chief of the CIA's Bin Ladin Unit. He's forgotten more about Al Qaeda, than you and I have ever learned put together.


Klattue, frankly I think you would give up believing people who've been wrong about virtually everything pertaining to Iraq and Afghanistan for the last five years. The one's who are promoting this point of view ("The Koran causes muslims to be violent!"), are sean hannity, Glenn beck, Michael Savage, Tom Delay, Newt Gingrich, etc.

Someday, I hope you'll consider learning from people who actually have been right all along: like this Michael Scheuer dude. Everything he predicted about Iraq and Afghanistan has come true.

[Cancel7]

You know what Darla .. I needed to read this once again .. because you what.. this very thing takes place on this and the other site at least every other day... i.e. see your little buddy's posts ... robdawg ... and all I see you do is agree with him....

But post something derogatory about Islam...and boy oh boy all you lefty's come ruinning to their defense ....

Well, Rob first of all, is funny, so he can say anything he wants. Secondly, he's not using quotes from the bible, he's talking about religious folk in general, regardless of what religion they come from. It's two different things.

You are using quotes from a religious text to slander a religion and its followers, while at the same time, you follow a religion whose main text has little but violence, degredation, slavery, sexism, racism, incest and to top it all off, some more violence. So I don't think you have any standing to point a finger, is my point. Whereas Robdawg obviously does.

[Cypress]

You know what Darla .. I needed to read this once again .. because you what.. this very thing takes place on this and the other site at least every other day... i.e. see your little buddy's posts ... robdawg ... and all I see you do is agree with him....

But post something derogatory about Islam...and boy oh boy all you lefty's come ruinning to their defense ....

You might want to spend some time reviewing the threads on this board. Recently, there have been numerous threads about this subject, with dozens of posts from AOI, myself, and Mainman calling al qaeda authoritarian theocrats.

That's what they are. And the left (and our founding fathers) abhored Theocracy.

[klaatu]

(sigh......)

Jihad is a tool, not a cause.

Read Michael Scheuer if you care to learn. He's the respected former Chief of the CIA's Bin Ladin Unit. He's forgotten more about Al Qaeda, than you and I have ever learned put together.


(sigh...)

You know.. you either have to believe that these people are fervent in their faith.. which they are .. and take what they say serious ... which is on record .. no propaganda here.. what they say is on record and their actions back it up.
And look to the source of their teachings ... from an extreme angle ...
Just as you do when critiquing the actions of American Christians who are anti gay .... (right Darla?)

You talk about Bush Apoligists .. what do we have here ...

Over the course of weeks I have posted several articles and statements from mainstream and foriegn sources... outlining that we are up against leaders who believe that they are on a devine mission. Also ...the power struggle for Middle East Land (energy) is of course the trophy ... there is a multi headed monster in place...
But I will agree...we need to get out of it.... asap .... and we need to become self sufficient. We need to remove ourselves from this power struggle and Holy War.

[IHateGovernment]

I guarantee you if you handed these terrorists and fanatics a bible they would be doing the same kind of thing. These people are just looking for an excuse.

[klaatu]

Well, Rob first of all, is funny, so he can say anything he wants. Secondly, he's not using quotes from the bible, he's talking about religious folk in general, regardless of what religion they come from. It's two different things.

You are using quotes from a religious text to slander a religion and its followers, while at the same time, you follow a religion whose main text has little but violence, degredation, slavery, sexism, racism, incest and to top it all off, some more violence. So I don't think you have any standing to point a finger, is my point. Whereas Robdawg obviously does.


I dont see why Rob should be an exception to the rule Darla... and besides ..his posts are always in reference to Christians... so Rob gets a free pass with his prejudicial remarks...? He is allowed to ride free on the hate train? As long as that hate is pointed in what Darla thinks is the right direction?


What religion do I follow Darla? Please tell me...

Oh.. are you talking about the Bible Darla ... yeah there is much in the Bibles Old test that outlines a dark history ... but there is also the brighter side.. and then of course there is the New Testament .... and of course.. genuine Christians see the message of Peace, Love and Brotherhood.. but then.. if you want to dig in the past as USC would .. there is a darker side... but hopefully true Christians have evolved past that.
Since true Christians do not have their children strap bombs around their waste and blow themselves up in shopping malls ... in this regard... I think they may have a case to make.
And of course ..if you realistically look around the world .. seek out the havoc ... there is some commonalities as to who and where the havoc revolves.

[IHateGovernment]

Strapping bombs to oneself isn't a uniquely muslim thing. This was done is south east asia as well. It isn't a tactic purely out of belief but out of desperation due to lack of ability to find better means. If our position was hopeless you would see many among us strapping bombs to ourselves too.

This isn't about religion it is about circumstances.

Its easy to be high and mighty when you live in a society where pretty much everyone has enough, technology is advanced and the military is unassailable.

Change places and we'll see how much love, peace and happiness survives.

From what I have seen human nature persists regardless of religion. Even in a vacuum of religion it persists. Religion is just a justification as an afterthought to what one's natural inclinations are anyway.

[LadyT]

I dont see why Rob should be an exception to the rule Darla... and besides ..his posts are always in reference to Christians... so Rob gets a free pass with his prejudicial remarks...? He is allowed to ride free on the hate train? As long as that hate is pointed in what Darla thinks is the right direction?


Its a function of humor. Funny posts get a free ride.


i can't speak for Lady T, but i can't stand muslims either, lts like shave your *&%$# face... they let it grow and get all nappy... then i mean all the bowing and *&%$ ont he ground your going to hurt your back.

[Cancel7]

I dont see why Rob should be an exception to the rule Darla... and besides ..his posts are always in reference to Christians... so Rob gets a free pass with his prejudicial remarks...? He is allowed to ride free on the hate train? As long as that hate is pointed in what Darla thinks is the right direction? I don't think Rob hates anybody. I enjoy him. Did you want to have me beaten for it Klatuu? Maybe have me whipped? Some good old time religious punishment for the girl? Come on, you can say it, we all know.

What religion do I follow Darla? Please tell me...

Oh.. are you talking about the Bible Darla ... yeah there is much in the Bibles Old test that outlines a dark history ... but there is also the brighter side.. and then of course there is the New Testament .... and of course.. genuine Christians see the message of Peace, Love and Brotherhood.. but then.. if you want to dig in the past as USC would .. there is a darker side... but hopefully true Christians have evolved past that. You don't get out much do you? I don't know about "true Christians" but I know that many Christians have not evolved past that at all.Since true Christians do not have their children strap bombs around their waste and blow themselves up in shopping malls ... in this regard... I think they may have a case to make. Of course you would. But you can bet that if the only recourse they had was to strap a bomb to themselves, they'd do it. But Christians are in the enviable position of being able to excersize their murderous instincts by bombing whole civilizations. Let's face, these days, what does a Christian love more than a good civilian bombing? They support it, they cheer it, they tell you oh sure, it's a shame innocents have to die, but hey, if you want to make an omelet right? You dare to point your finger at someone who straps a bomb on and kills a handful of civilians (very wrong btw, and is murder), while turning your eye, and in fact paying for, and supporting, the mass bombings of civilians?? Get off your high horse Klatu, because you have no saddle to sit on here.
And of course ..if you realistically look around the world .. seek out the havoc ... there is some commonalities as to who and where the havoc revolves. Yes, there is. As Rob points out, they're all holyrollers of one stripe or the other!

[uscitizen]

Well USC, I don't think you get it ok? This is a biblical story, and Lot is the man. It certainly was not his fault! His daughters got him drunk and then basically raped him. You know how women are known for that! I mean, today they use the date rape drug, and how many of them are in jail for slipping it into some poor, unsuspecting guy's drink, and then having their way with him? Sometimes it's a stranger in a bar, other times, they slip it into their brother's OJ in the morning, and next thing you know he's on his back! Sluts.

I really like your twisted sense of humor and logic :)

[Cancel7]

Strapping bombs to oneself isn't a uniquely muslim thing. This was done is south east asia as well. It isn't a tactic purely out of belief but out of desperation due to lack of ability to find better means. If our position was hopeless you would see many among us strapping bombs to ourselves too.

This isn't about religion it is about circumstances.

Its easy to be high and mighty when you live in a society where pretty much everyone has enough, technology is advanced and the military is unassailable.

Change places and we'll see how much love, peace and happiness survives.

From what I have seen human nature persists regardless of religion. Even in a vacuum of religion it persists. Religion is just a justification as an afterthought to what one's natural inclinations are anyway.

Very well said.

[Cancel7]

I really like your twisted sense of humor and logic :)

LOL

Thanks.

[uscitizen]

Its a function of humor. Funny posts get a free ride.

How can I be following the orders of someone I do not believe exists ?
In my thinking "Lucifer" is the animalistic nature that is born into all humans and we have to strive to overcome that animilistic nature and become more "civilized".
People can't seem to think of themselves in this way hence blame it on the devil :)

OOPS i forgot that Brents quote would not forward to this message, sorry,

[uscitizen]

ou speak of Rastafari,
but how can you justify belief
In a god that's left you behind?
You've simply filled the gap
between the upper and lower class
And your faith merely keeps you in line. In line yeah
An amalgamation of jewish scripture
and christian thought.
What will that get you? Not a fuck of a lot.
Take a look at your promised land.
Your deed is that gun in your hand.
Mt. Zion's a minefield. The West Bank. The Gaza Strip.
Soon to be parking lots f
or American tourists and fascist cops yeah.


Fuck zionism.

Fuck militarism.

Fuck americanism.

Fuck nationalism.

Fuck religion.

Fuck religion.

Fuck religion.

Fuck religion.


that should get you some Grind points for sure.

[Damocles]

Strapping bombs to oneself isn't a uniquely muslim thing. This was done is south east asia as well. It isn't a tactic purely out of belief but out of desperation due to lack of ability to find better means. If our position was hopeless you would see many among us strapping bombs to ourselves too.

This isn't about religion it is about circumstances.

Its easy to be high and mighty when you live in a society where pretty much everyone has enough, technology is advanced and the military is unassailable.

Change places and we'll see how much love, peace and happiness survives.

From what I have seen human nature persists regardless of religion. Even in a vacuum of religion it persists. Religion is just a justification as an afterthought to what one's natural inclinations are anyway.
Look at the Japanese in WWII, they also fanatically were willing to die as living ordinance guidance...

[klaatu]

Jihad just means struggle. Jihad doesn't need to be violent. One can declare jihad against over eating or smoking.

Obviously there must be something to struggle against. Terrorists jihad against perceived oppression both real and unreal.


This is a problem of yours .. .. you like to play politics and mess with meaning ....you left out an important part ...


Jihad, sometimes spelled Jahad, Jehad, Jihaad or Djehad, (Arabic: جهاد‎ ǧihād) is an Islamic term, from the Arabic root ǧhd ("to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle"), which connotes a wide range of meanings: anything from an inward spiritual struggle to attain perfect faith to a political or military struggle to further the Islamic cause. Individuals involved in the political or military forms of jihad are often labeled with the neologism "jihadist".


Jihad as pertaining to war :

The commands inculcated in the Quran (in five suras from the period after Muhammad had established his power) on Muslims to put to the sword those who will neither embrace Islam nor pay a poll-tax (jizya) were not interpreted as a general injunction on all Muslims constantly to make war on the infidels (originally only polytheists, not Jews and Christians, who are called "People of the Book", since Jesus is seen as the the last of the precursors of the Prophet Muhammed; the word infidel had different historical uses, notably used by the Crusaders to refer to the Muslims they were fighting against). It was generally supposed that the order for a general war can only be given by the Caliph (an office that was claimed by the Ottoman sultans), but Muslims who did not acknowledge the spiritual authority of the Caliphate (which is vacant), such as non-Sunnis and non-Ottoman Muslim states, always looked to their own rulers for the proclamation of a jihad; there has been in fact no universal warfare by Muslims on unbelievers since the early caliphate. Jihad was generally proclaimed by whoever claimed to be a mahdi, e.g. the Sudanese Mahommed Ahmad in 1882.


Mahdi

Ahmadinejad is on record saying that he has the divine mission of ushering in the 12 Imam ...

http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_10945.shtml

MAHDI IMAM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Mahdi

[Cancel7]

Oh yeah, what happened with that? Wasn't he supposed to get his iman to assault us yesterday or something? Weren't all the hens over at FOX news sqawking for the past month that we were in for one big nasty surprise on the 22nd of August and we all better hide our children, grasp tightly onto our virginity and our apple pies and run for our lives or something?

Jesus, I slept clean through the whole fiasco. Well, I guess I'll read about it in today's papers at lunch. Which reminds me...

[Cypress]

Ahmadinejad is on record saying that he has the divine mission of ushering in the 12 Imam ...

For domestic consumption.

National leaders say all sorts of things, to distract their domestic constituents from day to day problems in their own countries. Saddam did it. He fancied himself some sort of pan-nationalist Arab leader, and said as much.

Iran is at best, a regional power. Thanks to bush, they are probably more influential in the region, than they were five years ago.

But, they don't have the power or influence you think they do.

[Jarod]

uhmm.. once again .. no ...



egg mud....

[uscitizen]

Ahmadinejad is on record saying that he has the divine mission of ushering in the 12 Imam ...

For domestic consumption.

National leaders say all sorts of things, to distract their domestic constituents from day to day problems in their own countries. Saddam did it. He fancied himself some sort of pan-nationalist Arab leader, and said as much.

Iran is at best, a regional power. Thanks to bush, they are probably more influential in the region, than they were five years ago.

But, they don't have the power or influence you think they do.

but we are giving Iran that power thru our actions.

[IHateGovernment]

Klaatu I am aware of the Quranic command of dealing with infidels. I pointed that out just to point out the jihad is a broader term. It can include some nasty things but doesn't have to. This isn't politics its just the truth.

[OrnotBitwise]

that should get you some Grind points for sure.
Or at least get him a lot of fucking.

[Cancel7]

Or at least get him a lot of fucking.

Who? From Grind? What?

What's going on here, I demand to know! Who is f'ing who on this board? How dare this be kept from me?

[OrnotBitwise]

Just for Klaatu -- culled from evilbible.com, I admit, as I claim no biblical scholarship at all. If the Islamic kettle is black, so too is the Christian pot.


You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

[OrnotBitwise]

Who? From Grind? What?

What's going on here, I demand to know! Who is f'ing who on this board? How dare this be kept from me?
Hey, blame IH8. He's the one who failed to invite you. ;)

[Cancel7]

That should be, who is f'ing whom on this board.

I'm so embarrassed.

[Cancel7]

Just for Klaatu -- culled from evilbible.com, I admit, as I claim no biblical scholarship at all. If the Islamic kettle is black, so too is the Christian pot.


You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

Wow. This seems like some violent stuff.

Klattu what do you make of this? It makes me wonder if this isn't what's causing the Christian's habit of bombing civilians.

[LadyT]

Who? From Grind? What?

What's going on here, I demand to know! Who is f'ing who on this board? How dare this be kept from me?


Oh? Didn't you hear? I'm carrying Brents love child. The abortion is scheduled for Thursday at 10.

[Cancel7]

Oh? Didn't you hear? I'm carrying Brents love child. The abortion is scheduled for Thursday at 10.


Oh Lord Tiana...Jesus Christ it's never a good idea to drink that much.

[OrnotBitwise]

Oh? Didn't you hear? I'm carrying Brents love child. The abortion is scheduled for Thursday at 10.
Damo, we really need a coffee-spit-take emoticon. I mean really. Like, right now.

[IHateGovernment]

Ornot did you call up Brent to get that?

[IHateGovernment]

Remember Muhammad was greatly influenced by Christianity and Judaism when he founded Islam. Such violence in a cornerstone of the desert monotheisms.

[uscitizen]

So you are that dirty girl Brent referred to LadyT ? Wow!
I don't think I would wait till thursday.

[uscitizen]

Remember Muhammad was greatly influenced by Christianity and Judaism when he founded Islam. Such violence in a cornerstone of the desert monotheisms.
Well I guess so , wasn't he the illegetimate son or the son of the illegitimate son of Abraham ? Darla, I believe that is another problem caused by women ie the wife of abraham ?

[OrnotBitwise]

Remember Muhammad was greatly influenced by Christianity and Judaism when he founded Islam. Such violence in a cornerstone of the desert monotheisms.
Exactly. And, just as most modern Christian clerics and scholars no longer take these exhortations to violence against unbelievers literally, most modern Islamic clerics and scholars don't advocate violence of any kind.

It's only the extremists and "fundamentalists" of the two religions who want implement these ancient doctrines.

[Cancel7]

So you are that dirty girl Brent referred to LadyT ? Wow!
I don't think I would wait till thursday.


LOL.

Yeah, that's the kind of thing you want to take care of sooner rather than later. You don't know what could be brewing in there, if Brent is the father.

Frankly, the whole thing is making me sick, and I'd rather picture IHG and Grind going at it with each other, and that ain't no pretty picture either...but still.

[OrnotBitwise]

Strapping bombs to oneself isn't a uniquely muslim thing. This was done is south east asia as well. It isn't a tactic purely out of belief but out of desperation due to lack of ability to find better means. If our position was hopeless you would see many among us strapping bombs to ourselves too.

This isn't about religion it is about circumstances.

Its easy to be high and mighty when you live in a society where pretty much everyone has enough, technology is advanced and the military is unassailable.

Change places and we'll see how much love, peace and happiness survives.

From what I have seen human nature persists regardless of religion. Even in a vacuum of religion it persists. Religion is just a justification as an afterthought to what one's natural inclinations are anyway.
Sri Lanka is actually the suicide bombing capital of the world. By a large margin, I believe.

[LadyT]

Oh Lord Tiana...Jesus Christ it's never a good idea to drink that much.

He told me it was Jesus Juice.

[Cancel7]

He told me it was Jesus Juice.

LMAO

Stop...


Well, I guess you sucked that right up! That'll teach you.

[IHateGovernment]

I guess he wanted to play God's chef :)

[LadyT]

LOL.

Yeah, that's the kind of thing you want to take care of sooner rather than later. You don't know what could be brewing in there, if Brent is the father.

Frankly, the whole thing is making me sick.........

I'll leave out what we did with the Rosary Beads then.

[IHateGovernment]

Any of you ever watch Moral Orel

[LadyT]

No IH8 what's that?

[klaatu]

Oh yeah, what happened with that? Wasn't he supposed to get his iman to assault us yesterday or something? Weren't all the hens over at FOX news sqawking for the past month that we were in for one big nasty surprise on the 22nd of August and we all better hide our children, grasp tightly onto our virginity and our apple pies and run for our lives or something?

Jesus, I slept clean through the whole fiasco. Well, I guess I'll read about it in today's papers at lunch. Which reminds me...

Darla.. did he say it or not?

[klaatu]

Klaatu I am aware of the Quranic command of dealing with infidels. I pointed that out just to point out the jihad is a broader term. It can include some nasty things but doesn't have to. This isn't politics its just the truth.

No ..the truth is that you took that little snip to counter the entire point of Jihad and Holy War ... iow .. you didnt include the other part that does pertain to War.

[klaatu]

Wow. This seems like some violent stuff.

Klattu what do you make of this? It makes me wonder if this isn't what's causing the Christian's habit of bombing civilians.

And who are the Christians in this case Darla .. hmmm ..

[Jarod]

Klaatu, do you like em scrambled or fried?

[klaatu]

Just for Klaatu -- culled from evilbible.com, I admit, as I claim no biblical scholarship at all. If the Islamic kettle is black, so too is the Christian pot.


You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

Sure .. and I see alot of Christians out there blowing up malls ..because of it...

What you and the other left field zanies refuse to acknowledge is that Extreme ISlam is using the words ..and following the path .. I dont see "Modern" day Christians following what you have posted here... unless of course you want to use George W Bush's actions in Iraq as an example ...and of course you will .... aside from the fact that you really think he is after the Oil ...

[klaatu]

Klaatu, do you like em scrambled or fried?

Alex .. you got your ass handed to you enough .. now go away little one ....

[uscitizen]

Let us not forget just which group started the tradition of terroristic bombing in the middle east to get what they wanted.

[klaatu]

Let us not forget just which group started the tradition of terroristic bombing in the middle east to get what they wanted.


remind us ...

[Cancel7]

And who are the Christians in this case Darla .. hmmm ..

Ah-ha! I bloody well knew you guys would be throwing the jews off the train (and under it) first chance you got. I warn them all the time, don't get into bed with the right wing Christians man, you are going to wake up dead one of these mornings. They will slit your throat first chance they get, because truth be known, and though many are too delicate to say so...the right wing are the same people who have always hated the Jews, and who still use "New York Elites" as a code word for "The Jews".

To specify, the Christians in this case are the same Christians who cheered shock and awe, carried out by other Christians, and the same Christians who cheered the bombing of Lebanon, carried out by Jews. There's nothing like getting someone expendable to do your dirty work for you.

[Cancel7]

remind us ...

He probably means the Israelis. You should read up on how they got that country, and the bunch of people (brits) they blew up in order to get it.

It's interesting. Did you know that some say Menacham Begin was a terrorist himself?

[uscitizen]

Jews, I am not sure if Israel existed at that time. They bombed the British and made them run like frenchmen.

[uscitizen]

Ah-ha! I bloody well knew you guys would be throwing the jews off the train (and under it) first chance you got. I warn them all the time, don't get into bed with the right wing Christians man, you are going to wake up dead one of these mornings. They will slit your throat first chance they get, because truth be known, and though many are too delicate to say so...the right wing are the same people who have always hated the Jews, and who still use "New York Elites" as a code word for "The Jews".

To specify, the Christians in this case are the same Christians who cheered shock and awe, carried out by other Christians, and the same Christians who cheered the bombing of Lebanon, carried out by Jews. There's nothing like getting someone expendable to do your dirty work for you.

You women ought to know to check the equipment trimming :)

[uscitizen]

He probably means the Israelis. You should read up on how they got that country, and the bunch of people (brits) they blew up in order to get it.

It's interesting. Did you know that some say Menacham Begin was a terrorist himself?

Only those who can run better than solmon rushdie say that Darla.

[Cancel7]

Jews, I am not sure if Israel existed at that time. They bombed the British and made them run like frenchmen.

In fact, Britan had Begin on a list of wanted terrorists at one time. He later became the prime minister of Israel.

didnt' change the fact that he once blew up innocent people in terrorist attacks.

[Cypress]

Let us not forget just which group started the tradition of terroristic bombing in the middle east to get what they wanted.

Zionists.

Loons from all religions can commit acts of terror and genocide.

[uscitizen]

Yeah but they started the middle east tradition of terrorist bombing and now whine about it.

[Care4all]

Dear Ornot and Everyone Else on Board! :)

I read your post with all of your supposed excerpts from the Bible THAT WERE COMPLETELY TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT and also REWORDED, and frankly, OUT RIGHT LIES...so that you or whoever created this list, could distort the truth...

They are able to distort the truth, because most of us just don't know our Bibles well enough to refute what people like "Ornot" have printed and have SAID is in the Bible.

(ORNOT, honey bunches of oats...NOTE, that I am really not accusing you of really being this way intentionally or even anything like that....so just bare with me for a minute of chastizing.... :D )

Well, I just took the first Gospel, (New Testament) passage that he had posted on this list of things that were supposedly said by the Christian God that was just as EVIL as some of the words that Klaatu posted:

ACCORDING TO ORNOT'S LIST, IT SAYS THIS:

Mark 6:11

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

AND THIS IS WHAT IT REALLY SAYS IN THE BIBLE

Mark 6:11 in context:

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve

Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. 7Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil* spirits.

8These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts.

9Wear sandals but not an extra tunic.

10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town.

11And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."

12They went out and preached that people should repent.

13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

---------------------------------------------------

Now, if the very first verse that I chose to look up, in my New International Version Bible and also my New American Bible that I have here, was TOTAL UTTER BULLSHIT, then I would have to believe that the other verses that he posted are ALSO, Total utter bullshit....and when I get the time I will make a post about the truth and what this list "says" is the truth about scripture....

BUT NOT UNTIL I do this for every QUOTE that Klaatu posted that was supposedly in the Koran!!! I am going to research every damn word on Klaatu's list to see if they WERE ALSO TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT OR JUST downright deceiving/lies....And I will let you know!

MY BET? My bet is that that list of scripture from the Koran is no more Scripture from the Koran than that list that Ornot posted is from the old and the new testament....it has been twisted....or corrupted....

But guess what? We are all out there believing the shit that are on lists like this and ignorantly pass it on as though it were true....because we don't know and don't have the time to look it up at the time of the passioanate debate...

well guess what my bet is? that the purpose of these lists are nothing more than a tool of those trying to influence politics by stirring up hatred...on both sides of the aisle!

just think about it?

care

[Cancel7]

Care you don't have to look up anything on my account, I don't pass on anything I say or read here. If I told anyone I know that I even do this, they would probably stop hanging out with me, and might even try and have me committed.

It seems like a lot of work just to prove Klatu wrong, listen, if you wait two minutes, he'll say something else that will be more easily proved wrong. Because, the guy? Pretty much always wrong. Think about it Care ;)

[OrnotBitwise]

LOL! Thank you, Care. You will note that I did say that I claim no bible scholarship at all. :D

My point wasn't to have those quotes taken seriously. My point was simply that many parts of either the koran or the bible, taken out of context, can be construed as inciting violence against nonbelievers. MOST Islamic scholars and clerics today do not advocate violence against anyone. They interpret Jihad in a very different way.

Come to that, I think that neither the koran nor any other religious text is the real driving force behind terrorism. Poverty is, in my view. Religion is just the spark and the excuse.

[Care4all]

Care you don't have to look up anything on my account, I don't pass on anything I say or read here. If I told anyone I know that I even do this, they would probably stop hanging out with me, and might even try and have me committed.

It seems like a lot of work just to prove Klatu wrong, listen, if you wait two minutes, he'll say something else that will be more easily proved wrong. Because, the guy? Pretty much always wrong. Think about it Care ;)

I don't even know for sure that Klaatu is wrong or that Ornot's entire list is wrong...either!

Not yet...

But I have seen these lists several times, and someone took the time to make these lists up to "stir up" things...for sure.

We just need to be made aware that this is the purpose of these kind of things...
for example: Kllatu printing his list beckoned ornot to post the list he had come across and so on and so forth.... the next thing ya know is a kazillion billion :D people around the world think that we are all killers and all are just hateful groups of people...it is a political tactic of those with influence and power, keep us fighting with all the lies and spinning.

And honestly, for the most part, we are not.

Now, those in power...hmmmmm....that's another story all together!

care

[Cypress]

Dear Ornot and Everyone Else on Board!

I read your post with all of your supposed excerpts from the Bible THAT WERE COMPLETELY TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT and also REWORDED, and frankly, OUT RIGHT LIES...so that you or whoever created this list, could distort the truth...

I don't believe 99% of the "snippets" that anyone posts from either the koran or the bible. I'm entirely sure people get these snippets which are taken out of context, and from websites with agendas.

I think that was Ornot's point. The little cuts and paste snippets from the Koran could easily be taken out of context, by somebody with an agenda, just like the bible snippets likely were.

[uscitizen]

Thanks for the time to research them Care.
I have found that very few "christians" really know the bible. The real ones to try to understand it though.

[OrnotBitwise]

I think that was Ornot's point. The little cuts and paste snippets from the Koran could easily be taken out of context, by somebody with an agenda, just like the bible snippets likely were.
Give that man a cigar. Cuban, of course. :cool:

[Care4all]

LOL! Thank you, Care. You will note that I did say that I claim no bible scholarship at all. :D

My point wasn't to have those quotes taken seriously. My point was simply that many parts of either the koran or the bible, taken out of context, can be construed as inciting violence against nonbelievers. MOST Islamic scholars and clerics today do not advocate violence against anyone. They interpret Jihad in a very different way.

Come to that, I think that neither the koran nor any other religious text is the real driving force behind terrorism. Poverty is, in my view. Religion is just the spark and the excuse.

Yes, I knew that, Ornot...I was just "using you"! hahahaha!

how was it? ;) lol

care

[Cancel7]

Give that man a cigar. Cuban, of course. :cool:

Don't give cigars to Cypress, I am telling you right now. He would be up to no good with it faster than you could say "hey didnt Bill Clinton".

[Cancel7]

Yes, I knew that, Ornot...I was just "using you"! hahahaha!

how was it? ;) lol

care

It must have been good, he's already talking about smoking a cigar!

[Care4all]

It must have been good, he's already talking about smoking a cigar!


ahhhhhhhhhhh, lol, so that's what happens after "usery"..... smokin' them big hoagies? ;)

[uscitizen]

So that is why my wife smokes cigars ? hmmm...

[Care4all]

Thanks for the time to research them Care.
I have found that very few "christians" really know the bible. The real ones to try to understand it though.

your welcome US....! and ty for your kind words!

[uscitizen]

You are most Welcome Care.
I don't believe , but I do support the true Christians because they have helped to make our society a better place.

[AnyOldIron]

Religion breeds extremism because it is absolutist.

[AnyOldIron]

It'd be comical that people take mythological stories so seriously if it weren't so deadly.....

[klaatu]

Ah-ha! I bloody well knew you guys would be throwing the jews off the train (and under it) first chance you got. I warn them all the time, don't get into bed with the right wing Christians man, you are going to wake up dead one of these mornings. They will slit your throat first chance they get, because truth be known, and though many are too delicate to say so...the right wing are the same people who have always hated the Jews, and who still use "New York Elites" as a code word for "The Jews".

To specify, the Christians in this case are the same Christians who cheered shock and awe, carried out by other Christians, and the same Christians who cheered the bombing of Lebanon, carried out by Jews. There's nothing like getting someone expendable to do your dirty work for you.


What f are you talking about ... ? So you are saying that America .. your secular Country .. is a Christian country? You are an idiot.

[klaatu]

Care you don't have to look up anything on my account, I don't pass on anything I say or read here. If I told anyone I know that I even do this, they would probably stop hanging out with me, and might even try and have me committed.

It seems like a lot of work just to prove Klatu wrong, listen, if you wait two minutes, he'll say something else that will be more easily proved wrong. Because, the guy? Pretty much always wrong. Think about it Care ;)


DArla .. kiss it where the sun dont shine .. and to make a fool out of you .. Care was disccussing Ornots list not mine. And as I told you already ... my list was C&Ped off of a Atheist website... which roped you in... :321:

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

You're acting like you proved something, what might that be? I dont' care where you got it from, the source of origin is the Koran. And I can get shit just as messed up from the Bible. Proving what? That all religious nuts are prone to violence and it's a bad idea to turn your back on them? Well, I already knew that. That's one of the many reasons I don't go to church. They're as liable to decide I'm a heathen and beat me to death in the name of Jesus, as they are to pilfer my wallet. I don't trust those people man, no matter what God they pray to.

So, were you interested in the graphic details of the Lot story? I can still post them. It's some juicy stuff. Then there's this one guy who gives his concubine to a couple of thugs to be raped, and then the next morning after she's brutally raped, he takes her home and cuts her into pieces. Maybe I should post that one. If everyone's done eating I mean. I wouldn't want anyone to puke when I start posting some Christian Love! Give me that old time religion baby.

Oh darla, dimwitted darla. There's a difference between violent acts in the past and commandments to do violence going forward.

[AnyOldIron]

That's like saying that the bible is the driving force for Xtian extremists who blow up people and institutions that they dislike.

The Sword Verses of the Koran are no more extreme than many other religion's 'holy' books.

But you know my opinion. All religious belief is mental illness and should be treated appropriately.....

[AnyOldIron]

"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations … then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."

(Deuteronomy 7:1-2)

This demonstrates that the bible justifies merciless killing. Let's ban the bible!

[AnyOldIron]

Murder and Slavery



The tribe of Benjamin, however, failed to drive out the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem. So to this day the Jebusites live in Jerusalem among the people of Benjamin. The descendants of Joseph attacked the town of Bethel, and the LORD was with them. They sent spies to Bethel (formerly known as Luz), who confronted a man coming out of the city. They said to him, "Show us a way into the city, and we will have mercy on you." So he showed them a way in, and they killed everyone in the city except for this man and his family. Later the man moved to the land of the Hittites, where he built a city. He named the city Luz, and it is known by that name to this day. The tribe of Manasseh failed to drive out the people living in Beth-shan, Taanach, Dor, Ibleam, Megiddo, and their surrounding villages, because the Canaanites were determined to stay in that region.



When the Israelites grew stronger, they forced the Canaanites to work as slaves, but they never did drive them out of the land. The tribe of Ephraim also failed to drive out the Canaanites living in Gezer, and so the Canaanites continued to live there among them. The tribe of Zebulun also failed to drive out the Canaanites living in Kitron and Nahalol, who continued to live among them. But they forced them to work as slaves. The tribe of Asher also failed to drive out the residents of Acco, Sidon, Ahlab, Aczib, Helbah, Aphik, and Rehob. In fact, because they did not drive them out, the Canaanites dominated the land where the people of Asher lived. The tribe of Naphtali also failed to drive out the residents of Beth-shemesh and Beth-anath. Instead, the Canaanites dominated the land where they lived. Nevertheless, the people of Beth-shemesh and Beth-anath were sometimes forced to work as slaves for the people of Naphtali. As for the tribe of Dan, the Amorites forced them into the hill country and would not let them come down into the plains. The Amorites were determined to stay in Mount Heres, Aijalon, and Shaalbim, but when the descendants of Joseph became stronger, they forced the Amorites to work as slaves. (Judges 1:21-35 NLT)

The Xtian god, and thus by extension all Xtians, support slavery!!!

The bible was the inspiration and driving force behind slavery!!!!1!!!!

ROFLMAO! You religious guys crack me up....

[uscitizen]

Yes many references in the Bible supporting slavery.
Anyone wonder why the south is also known as the Bible Belt ?

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

I'll tell you something Klatu, I think you have a lot of nerve.

How about I go gather a bunch of violent shit from the bible that tells of graphic rape and murder and beatings, all of women?

And then say, we have a problem because obviously the men who are abusing and raping and murdering women in this country every six minutes, are doing it because the bible told them to. Or maybe I should post the story of how two daughters get their father drunk and then do him, I think it's called Lot's of incest, or something like that? And then we can blame all the child abuse that happens in this country on the bible.

I think that you religious people are the biggest hypocrites that ever were put on this earth. Truly. And I think you all would do well to worry about the big-ass planks stuck in your own eyes, before you go pointing your fingers anywhere else. Remember, there's three pointing back at you.
Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Go get your passages, darla. I guarantee very few of them are actual instructions on how all christians are to deal with non christians. Many of them are just reflections of the society as it was at the time.

[uscitizen]

Lets not forget the tales of King David either Darla.
Had a man killed so he gould get her wife......

Nor Abraham and his having a child by a slave, which led to the Jew/Islamic problems of the past thousansds of years up to and including the present.

Then the fact that Christ was a Jew....

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Lets not forget the tales of King David either Darla.
Had a man killed so he gould get her wife......

Nor Abraham and his having a child by a slave, which led to the Jew/Islamic problems of the past thousansds of years up to and including the present.

Then the fact that Christ was a Jew....


Christ was, more actually, the first convert to christianity.

[uscitizen]

Christ was, more actually, the first convert to christianity.

No his followers were, he was a Jew. A radical revoloutionary Jew, but a Jew none the less.

[Damocles]

No his followers were, he was a Jew. A radical revoloutionary Jew, but a Jew none the less.
"No man comes to the father, but by me!"

That is not a jewish sentiment.

Also, "You must be born again!"... Many of the main precepts of the religion are not part of Judaism.

[OrnotBitwise]

Go get your passages, darla. I guarantee very few of them are actual instructions on how all christians are to deal with non christians. Many of them are just reflections of the society as it was at the time.The exact same statement can (and should) be made about the Qu'ran.

Neither creed really sanctions violence against non-believers. The overwhelming majority of both Christians and Muslims understand this. The problem lies in the fact that too many people here in the Western World believe that the Islamist extremists represent mainstream Islam. They do not, any more than Eric Rudolph represents mainstream Christianity.

[OrnotBitwise]

"No man comes to the father, but by me!"

That is not a jewish sentiment.

Also, "You must be born again!"... Many of the main precepts of the religion are not part of Judaism.
A significant number of Jews would disagree with you, I think. Many Reform Jews see these principles inherent in their faith. Jesus simply articulated them differently and drew attention to them.

[uscitizen]

"No man comes to the father, but by me!"

That is not a jewish sentiment.

Also, "You must be born again!"... Many of the main precepts of the religion are not part of Judaism.

Umm how much of that was written by Christ ? As I said he was a radical revoloutionary Jew, his followers formed Christianity over several hundred years.

[Damocles]

A significant number of Jews would disagree with you, I think. Many Reform Jews see these principles inherent in their faith. Jesus simply articulated them differently and drew attention to them.
The born again reference is accepting Christ as the Savior. That is not a precept of Judaism, it is unique to Christianity.

[Damocles]

Umm how much of that was written by Christ ? As I said he was a radical revoloutionary Jew, his followers formed Christianity over several hundred years.
This would make it so one would have to pick and choose what to believe that Christ said based on some interpretation of opinion. If one believes that he was represented correctly in the Bible then those were his words.

[uscitizen]

The born again reference is accepting Christ as the Savior. That is not a precept of Judaism, it is unique to Christianity.

Right and it was told by his disciples. What would you expect his followers to say ?

[Damocles]

Right and it was told by his disciples. What would you expect his followers to say ?
All of his words were. Using some of what they report to say, "He was a Jew." then rejecting the rest requires taking much of what he said out of context.

[uscitizen]

This would make it so one would have to pick and choose what to believe that Christ said based on some interpretation of opinion. If one believes that he was represented correctly in the Bible then those were his words.

Umm Didn't constantine take care of that by standardizing the bible several hundred years later. The early Christain church was very much in turmoil for hundreds of years.

[OrnotBitwise]

The born again reference is accepting Christ as the Savior. That is not a precept of Judaism, it is unique to Christianity.Sure, but how important is it? Many Christians don't emphasize that at all. Many Christians take it to mean that anyone who "comes to the father" -- who lives a righteous life and is therefore "saved" -- has known Jesus, whether consciously or no.

[OrnotBitwise]

Tsk! "Therefor" not "therefore." Sloppy, Ornot, sloppy. Must have your Asshat on this morning.

:eek:

[Damocles]

Sure, but how important is it? Many Christians don't emphasize that at all. Many Christians take it to mean that anyone who "comes to the father" -- who lives a righteous life and is therefore "saved" -- has known Jesus, whether consciously or no.
Then they honestly don't read the verses in context. It is pretty straightforward.

[Damocles]

Umm Didn't constantine take care of that by standardizing the bible several hundred years later. The early Christain church was very much in turmoil for hundreds of years.
Yet you would use only the parts you want to see to "prove" he was solely a Jew rather than take what is presented in context.

[uscitizen]

Umm Damo, Preachers trained in a Christian seminary have told me Christ was a Jew, sorry but I will take their word over yours....
Isn't the definition of a Christian "A follower of Christ"

[Damocles]

Umm Damo, Preachers trained in a Christian seminary have told me Christ was a Jew, sorry but I will take their word over yours....
Isn't the definition of a Christian "A follower of Christ"
He was a Jew, but he was also more. My point was he went beyond and extended those teachings. If he had not there would be no difference between the two religions currently.

[OrnotBitwise]

Then they honestly don't read the verses in context. It is pretty straightforward.Oh, you're jumping into the "who's a real Christian" game? No thanks: I'll pass. So many Christians disagree with you -- Unitarians and many Methodists, right off -- that I prefer to simply dismiss your assertion. It is NOT straightforward. Not if disagreement on such a fundamental point can continue to this day. Prima facie evidence.

:p

[Damocles]

Oh, you're jumping into the "who's a real Christian" game? No thanks: I'll pass. So many Christians disagree with you -- Unitarians and many Methodists, right off -- that I prefer to simply dismiss your assertion. It is NOT straightforward. Not if disagreement on such a fundamental point can continue to this day. Prima facie evidence.

:p
I am not. I am reading it as an outsider. Read the verses. Or shall I provide them? They are pretty straightforward, as I stated.

[OrnotBitwise]

I am not. I am reading it as an outsider. Read the verses. Or shall I provide them? They are pretty straightforward, as I stated.
Sorry, but I have. And I do honestly disagree with you: they can be interpreted either way.

[Damocles]

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]



I will bold the passages that are part of that. For those who want to look them up, go to Bible Gatway and seek John Chapter 3.

That is pretty straightforward and part of the exact same teachings.

Much like anybody saying, "If I'm a good person I'll be saved" are only from a group that hasn't read, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Saying that it isn't necessary to believe this portion is from a group who plays the pick and choose game.

From this I can tell you that if the Bible is correct then I am condemned regardless of how good a person I am because I do not believe that Christ was God.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Sure, but how important is it? Many Christians don't emphasize that at all. Many Christians take it to mean that anyone who "comes to the father" -- who lives a righteous life and is therefore "saved" -- has known Jesus, whether consciously or no.

This is true. Many christians have become noahides, according to plan. They were getting too much flack for getting hung up on this jesus guy.

[OrnotBitwise]

I will bold the passages that are part of that. For those who want to look them up, go to Bible Gatway and seek John Chapter 3.

That is pretty straightforward and part of the exact same teachings.

Much like anybody saying, "If I'm a good person I'll be saved" are only from a group that hasn't read, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Saying that it isn't necessary to believe this portion is from a group who plays the pick and choose game.

From this I can tell you that if the Bible is correct then I am condemned regardless of how good a person I am because I do not believe that Christ was God.If I truly believed that yours was the only possible interpretation of the creed -- not just this passage but the enchilada -- then I would conclude, without hesitation, that Christianity is inherently evil and should be destroyed. No joke. Nuke the Vatican and start firebombing full churches, 'cause these people are vermin.

Fortunately, I happen to believe your taking of these verses, in a particular translation and out of context, is misleading. ;)

[OrnotBitwise]

This is true. Many christians have become noahides, according to plan. They were getting too much flack for getting hung up on this jesus guy.Noachides are the good guys, in case you hadn't noticed.

[uscitizen]

Well if I believed in heaven or hell I would be worried about being damned.

[OrnotBitwise]

Well if I believed in heaven or hell I would be worried about being damned.
That is logically consistent. :)

I really don't believe that Christianity has to be the hateful, ignorant, woman-hating, baby-crushing monolith that so many Americans try to make it. The simple fact that so many decent, liberal churches even exist in the face of such narrow, didactic pronouncements as Damo's makes it clear to me that some Christians really do think. They don't get hung up on individual verses, each of them subject to semantic noise and interference over two milenia of re-transimission and translation. Rather, they look at the whole of Jesus' teaching and try to evaluate what is consistent and what is not.

[uscitizen]

Agreed Ornot. There are many good genuine thinking Christians out there.
Unfortuantely they by nature are not as vocal as the asshole Christians.

[OrnotBitwise]

Agreed Ornot. There are many good genuine thinking Christians out there.
Unfortuantely they by nature are not as vocal as the asshole Christians.
True, that. Same can be said of thinking Muslims vs. asshole Muslims.

[uscitizen]

True, that. Same can be said of thinking Muslims vs. asshole Muslims.

Yepper.


Extremists of all varieties are wrong.

[Damocles]

If I truly believed that yours was the only possible interpretation of the creed -- not just this passage but the enchilada -- then I would conclude, without hesitation, that Christianity is inherently evil and should be destroyed. No joke. Nuke the Vatican and start firebombing full churches, 'cause these people are vermin.

Fortunately, I happen to believe your taking of these verses, in a particular translation and out of context, is misleading. ;)
They are not out of context. I gave the entire fricking chapter practically...

But whatever floats your boat. It's not like I'm trying to convert you or something.

[Damocles]

That is logically consistent. :)

I really don't believe that Christianity has to be the hateful, ignorant, woman-hating, baby-crushing monolith that so many Americans try to make it. The simple fact that so many decent, liberal churches even exist in the face of such narrow, didactic pronouncements as Damo's makes it clear to me that some Christians really do think. They don't get hung up on individual verses, each of them subject to semantic noise and interference over two milenia of re-transimission and translation. Rather, they look at the whole of Jesus' teaching and try to evaluate what is consistent and what is not.
Man, you are really thick. I am not a christian. I am not pronouncing any of this.

[OrnotBitwise]

Man, you are really thick. I am not a christian. I am not pronouncing any of this.
I know you're not a Christian but you are making pronouncements about who else is and is not. You've taken one particular set of verses from John, pronounced them pivotal, and implied that those Christians who disagree with your personal interpretation of said verses are fundamentally in error. You have effectively dismissed all Unitarians and a lot of other Christians as inferior, simply because they don't see Nicodemus as you do.

And yes, you have taken them out of context. Out of the larger context of the entire New Testament, that is.

Many try to assert that Jesus excluded gentiles (non-Jews) from his ministry. From Mark, you can get this impression. Yet most Christian scholars say that Mark is misinterpreted in this regard. Similarly, many Christians cannot believe that the Good Samaritan would have been damned.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Oh, you're jumping into the "who's a real Christian" game? No thanks: I'll pass. So many Christians disagree with you -- Unitarians and many Methodists, right off -- that I prefer to simply dismiss your assertion. It is NOT straightforward. Not if disagreement on such a fundamental point can continue to this day. Prima facie evidence.

:p

No. He's jumping into the "intepreting scripture in a straightforward manner" game.

[AnyOldIron]

No. He's jumping into the "intepreting scripture in a straightforward manner" game.

As opposed to the usual xtian way of interpreting scripture to justify whichever prejudice is flavour of the month?

[Damocles]

No. He's jumping into the "intepreting scripture in a straightforward manner" game.

As opposed to the usual xtian way of interpreting scripture to justify whichever prejudice is flavour of the month?
Well, it seems that particular pendulum swings in both directions. At least according to the thread's participants.

But, as I said, it really doesn't matter to me. Those who believe the way described are closer to my belief system than the other. I just take what I read and apply it accordingly. I would not be a christian for many reasons, this is one of them.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

most modern Islamic clerics and scholars don't advocate violence of any kind.

Yeah, not around outsiders.



It's only the extremists and "fundamentalists" of the two religions who want implement these ancient doctrines.


Except that the christian world has gone through a massive secularization movement and the islamic world hasn't, and doesn't appear to be heading in that direction.

[AnyOldIron]

Well, it seems that particular pendulum swings in both directions. At least according to the thread's participants.

But, as I said, it really doesn't matter to me. Those who believe the way described are closer to my belief system than the other. I just take what I read and apply it accordingly. I would not be a christian for many reasons, this is one of them.

All such texts can be interpreted to suit the reader's perspective, be they Xtian, Muslim or misc.... vagueness and obscurity are essential aspects of religious texts. That is also why it is so easy to find contradictions in them.

[AnyOldIron]

Except that the christian world has gone through a massive secularization movement and the islamic world hasn't, and doesn't appear to be heading in that direction.

Has Christianity gone through secularisation voluntarily?

[OrnotBitwise]

Except that the christian world has gone through a massive secularization movement and the islamic world hasn't, and doesn't appear to be heading in that direction.

Has Christianity gone through secularisation voluntarily? No, it has not.

In fact, the secularization of the "Christian" world is as much the result of economic factors as anything else. You see it happen in predominately Muslim countries too: once the standard of living for the majority rises to near equivalency with the Western nations, religious authority begins to lose its grip.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

No, it has not.

In fact, the secularization of the "Christian" world is as much the result of economic factors as anything else. You see it happen in predominately Muslim countries too: once the standard of living for the majority rises to near equivalency with the Western nations, religious authority begins to lose its grip.



Secularization only occurs when the elites in control want it to.

this is the same argument the globalist use to explain how slavery in china will magically end. It's magical thinking.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Except that the christian world has gone through a massive secularization movement and the islamic world hasn't, and doesn't appear to be heading in that direction.

Has Christianity gone through secularisation voluntarily?

Who forced christianity through the secularization process?

[uscitizen]

Who forced christianity through the secularization process?

Umm it seems that it was eager participation in the process to me.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Umm it seems that it was eager participation in the process to me.

So then you disagree with those who say the christianity was forced through the seculariztion process?

[uscitizen]

Oh I think led willingly is a better phrase. Just as we have been led willingly into globalization of our country.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Oh I think led willingly is a better phrase. Just as we have been led willingly into globalization of our country.


The truth is out there....



http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm

Following are apparently extracts of the letter, showing how Three World Wars have been planned for many generations.

"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions." 2

Students of history will recognize that the political alliances of England on one side and Germany on the other, forged between 1871 and 1898 by Otto von Bismarck, co-conspirator of Albert Pike, were instrumental in bringing about the First World War.

"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm." 3

After this Second World War, Communism was made strong enough to begin taking over weaker governments. In 1945, at the Potsdam Conference between Truman, Churchill, and Stalin, a large portion of Europe was simply handed over to Russia, and on the other side of the world, the aftermath of the war with Japan helped to sweep the tide of Communism into China.

(Readers who argue that the terms Nazism and Zionism were not known in 1871 should remember that the Illuminati invented both these movements. In addition, Communism as an ideology, and as a coined phrase, originates in France during the Revolution. In 1785, Restif coined the phrase four years before revolution broke out. Restif and Babeuf, in turn, were influenced by Rousseau - as was the most famous conspirator of them all, Adam Weishaupt.)

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time." 4

Since the terrorist attacks of Sept 11, 2001, world events, and in particular in the Middle East, show a growing unrest and instability between Modern Zionism and the Arabic World. This is completely in line with the call for a Third World War to be fought between the two, and their allies on both sides. This Third World War is still to come, and recent events show us that it is not far off.

[uscitizen]

:) I think the answer is more obvious, Greed.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

:) I think the answer is more obvious, Greed.


THat's luciferian doctrine.

[uscitizen]

Call it want you will AHZ, it is my observation, not a belief system or doctrine system, just an observation of mine.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Call it want you will AHZ, it is my observation, not a belief system or doctrine system, just an observation of mine.


It is a belief system. It's a belief system that morality is a lie that the old tell the young so they can take advantage of them. It is the belief that ultimately anything that brings might or dominance is permissible. It is a commitment to totalitarianism and inequality, in the abstract.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Don't be a Jerry Falwell.

If you're going to boil this down to some crazy shit written in the Koran, we have, we have truly lost any opportunity to "win" this war on terror. Nutbags from all religions can point to crazy shit in the bible, the koran, or the torah, as inspiration for violent acts. Those are only symptons and excuses, not causes.


Thats' not the fundemental driving force of al qaeda's ideology.

I suggest reading the seminal non-partisan works on al qaedas goals, motivations and ideology - by Michel Scheuer, former head of the Bin Ladin Unit at the CIA.

1) "Through our enemies eyes", 2002 by Michael Scheuer
2) "Imperial Hubris", 2004, by Michael Scheuer.


BTW: Michael Scheuer is a Reagan Republican.






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer

Scheuer describes his thesis: "[T]he crux of my argument is simply that America is in a war with militant Islamists that it cannot avoid; one that it cannot talk or appease its way out of; one in which our irreconcilable Islamist foes will have to be killed, an act which unavoidably will lead to innocent deaths; and one that is motivated in large measure by the impact of U.S. foreign policies in the Islamic world, one of which is unqualified U.S. support for Israel." [5] The book also documents a number of areas in which Scheuer believed Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein cooperated. [6]






He's just an anti-semite. He's just saying the Jews don't deserve the land god gave them. He's anti -god!

[uscitizen]

It is a belief system. It's a belief system that morality is a lie that the old tell the young so they can take advantage of them. It is the belief that ultimately anything that brings might or dominance is permissible. It is a commitment to totalitarianism and inequality, in the abstract.

label it if you must file it that way. I just see the truth of the matter.

Why we do anything could be labeled a belief system if you must do it that way.

I have a belief system that I should not murder or steal, etc...
Morals are belief systems....

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

label it if you must file it that way. I just see the truth of the matter.

Why we do anything could be labeled a belief system if you must do it that way.

I have a belief system that I should not murder or steal, etc...
Morals are belief systems....

Fine. Don't examine the complex web of interrelated moral qualities and how they effect and are effected by the material, spiritual, human, animal, and vaporous.

[uscitizen]

Oh I examine them but hate labels, when things are labeled they are easiier to shrug off or diss away.
Turbo lib, Neocon, tree hugger, Bushite, etc....

[uscitizen]

Also AHZ I pick and chose what I want, I follow no groups or individuals. That would li,it my options too much. And I am comfortable being on my own, and have no need of a support system.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Also AHZ I pick and chose what I want, I follow no groups or individuals. That would li,it my options too much. And I am comfortable being on my own, and have no need of a support system.


No man is an island.


A fully thunked out and consistent model of the world is not some sort of "followership".

Some labels are accurate. It's only inaccurately applied deceptive labels which bother me.

[uscitizen]

No label is completely accurate where humans are concerned.
I have not seen any one label that would fit me.
It is just too easy to label someone as a " " and judge them based on that label. Sort of like What most would do with Beefy's sister in law....

Yes no man is truely an island, but I have no heroes, and walk my own path. Sometimes others are with me sometimes not and being the odd man out does not bother me.
I have friends and value them highly and am well thought of in my community.
But I do not have to have friends or a crowd to run with.

I am just one of those loners that might shoot up the place I suppose :)

See there is another label that is not accurate....

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

No label is completely accurate where humans are concerned.


Does that include the label of "completely innacurate"?


I have not seen any one label that would fit me.

Human being?


It is just too easy to label someone as a " " and judge them based on that label. Sort of like What most would do with Beefy's sister in law....


Sometimes it is easy. like "pedophile porno shouldn't be legal to sell". Now if you want to start with "what do you mean by underage?" then YOU'RE the sick one.



Yes no man is truely an island, but I have no heroes, and walk my own path. Sometimes others are with me sometimes not and being the odd man out does not bother me.

Rock on, billy jack.

http://www.badmovies.org/movies/billyjack/billyjack2.jpg


I have friends and value them highly and am well thought of in my community.
But I do not have to have friends or a crowd to run with.

I am just one of those loners that might shoot up the place I suppose :)

See there is another label that is not accurate....


Of course, labels may be inaccurate or misleading, that doesn't mean they can't be and aren't ever accurate. Sometimes they're perfect.

[uscitizen]

Seldom perhaps never are labels perfect. They limit your vision too much.

Human being is not a label. It is a scientific term.
Completyly inaccurate is not really a label either.

Billie Jack ? Ahh well your perceptions will grow in time.
If you just think and consider.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Seldom perhaps never are labels perfect. They limit your vision too much.

Human being is not a label. It is a scientific term.
Completyly inaccurate is not really a label either.

Billie Jack ? Ahh well your perceptions will grow in time.
If you just think and consider.

Actually, labels are a great tool for accurate and concise communications. Of course, you can question the usage of a label in a given context, to increase communication.

Losing your critical thinking skills is not growth.

[uscitizen]

Losing your critical thinking skills is not growth.
//

Correct and that is what happens when you rely on labels.

for example I do not believe in God, etc. And I believe many Christians are slime. But I do not label all christians together as Rob does. I have some high respect for many Christians. Leaningright for example. But hold others in low regard. Dixie on the other extreme.
And it is the same with me in my local community, it would be far easier and less consideration required just to put them all under one label.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Losing your critical thinking skills is not growth.
//

Correct and that is what happens when you rely on labels.


I advocate the rigorous assessment of labels for accuracy. Rejecting the concept of labels outright is simply a way of opting out of discussion you're losing. It's similar to the nihilist backdoor out of any discussion. "That's just your opinion". "It depends on what the definition of is is" No. it doesn't, clinton, you rapist.

[uscitizen]

Wrong, I have never raped anyone. Another inaccurate label :D

[OrnotBitwise]

Actually, labels are a great tool for accurate and concise communications. Of course, you can question the usage of a label in a given context, to increase communication.

Losing your critical thinking skills is not growth.Anyone with any pretensions to critical thinking must recognize that all "labels" -- as used in this context -- represent generalizations about human behavior. Therefor, any such label is intrinsically inaccurate if applied too strictly.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Anyone with any pretensions to critical thinking must recognize that all "labels" -- as used in this context -- represent generalizations about human behavior. Therefor, any such label is intrinsically inaccurate if applied too strictly.


if applied too strictly. You're not condemning the very concept of labels as is our challenged friend, uscitizen.

[uscitizen]

The concept of and the common useage of labels are two differnet things.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

The concept of and the common useage of labels are two differnet things.

right, and you seem to denigrate the entire concept, instead of striving to improve common usage through clarification. Of course, sometimes people just hate being accurately described; then they start blathering on about labels.

[uscitizen]

I am just indescribeable AHZ :D
So How can I be labelled accurately ?

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

I am just indescribeable AHZ :D
So How can I be labelled accurately ?


"buttsuck"

[doniston]

I advocate the rigorous assessment of labels for accuracy. Rejecting the concept of labels outright is simply a way of opting out of discussion you're losing. It's similar to the nihilist backdoor out of any discussion. "That's just your opinion". "It depends on what the definition of is is" No. it doesn't, clinton, you rapist.Unfortunately labels are approximate. one size definitely does NOT fit all.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Unfortunately labels are approximate. one size definitely does NOT fit all.

Some are exactly precise and appopriate. The thing about descriptions or labels is that they can combine multiple words to refine meaning down to a fairly razor like edge. Sorry. The "failure of lables" is a theory of the incredibly weak minded.

[doniston]

Anyone with any pretensions to critical thinking must recognize that all "labels" -- as used in this context -- represent generalizations about human behavior. Therefor, any such label is intrinsically inaccurate if applied too strictly. I do beleive that the above, and this previous quote of your's aremuch in conflict: (TO WIT:

Actually, labels are a great tool for accurate and concise communications. Of course, you can question the usage of a label in a given context, to increase communication.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

I do beleive that the above, and this previous quote of your's aremuch in conflict: (TO WIT:

Actually, labels are a great tool for accurate and concise communications. Of course, you can question the usage of a label in a given context, to increase communication.



This is the questioning of a specific usage in a specific context, not a blanket condemnation of the whole concept of descriptive language, as you idiots prefer. That's classic anti-intellectualism, a rejection of rationality. AKA, stupid people think it.

[doniston]

Some are exactly precise and appopriate. The thing about descriptions or labels is that they can combine multiple words to refine meaning down to a fairly razor like edge. Sorry. The "failure of lables" is a theory of the incredibly weak minded. yet YOU added this statement: in answer to a doubt of accuracy:

if applied too strictly. that seems to put the lie to exact precision. What???

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

yet YOU added this statement: in answer to a doubt of accuracy:

if applied too strictly. that seems to put the lie to exact precision. What???


"if applied too strictly" is a sentence fragment, douche. Put up a full and complete quote.

The possibility of someone using a label too strictly exists on a case by case basis, and elaborations can be discussed and agreed upon to nail down the exact mean for the purposes of the conversation at hand. And that should be done in a fashion that facilitates communication. But you retards throw up these idiotic smokescreens throwing the whole concept of labels into question, just because you're getting your asses beaten. It's retarded and sad.