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Beefy
08-13-2007, 11:34 PM
Since I've become highly interested in quantum mechanics and particle physics, I've realized how much value the little things we take for granted in our lives, matter.

Every time you leave the light on, trillions of photons and electrons are being wasted per second. Every drip on your faucet is sending quintillions of atoms and energy fields to waste.

Every napkin, every piece of tissue, each can, bottle or paper plate is unnecessary to waste. The energy, the usefulness, the potential for all this shit is huge. We humans are wasteful bitches, lets try not to be.

FUCK THE POLICE
08-14-2007, 12:54 AM
Beefy, are you high again?

uscitizen
08-14-2007, 05:42 AM
yeah I think I will waste a few trillion couloumbs of electrons sending this post.

Cancel7
08-14-2007, 07:04 AM
yeah I think I will waste a few trillion couloumbs of electrons sending this post.

Ha! LOL

uscitizen
08-14-2007, 07:10 AM
actually I might be a bit high on my electron estimate. I forgot how many electrons are in a couloumb.

Damocles
08-14-2007, 07:11 AM
It isn't like those electrons disappear. Saying that they are "wasted" is a misnomer.

uscitizen
08-14-2007, 07:21 AM
It isn't like those electrons disappear. Saying that they are "wasted" is a misnomer.

Yeah but when the become reattached they are a pain to jar loose again. And like most they do no work when comfortable at home.

Beefy
08-14-2007, 01:14 PM
Beefy, are you high again?

Got some vicodin from my dentist.

uscitizen
08-14-2007, 01:29 PM
I get plenty of those for my back, up to 90 per month.
usually only take about 30 though.

Cancel7
08-14-2007, 01:58 PM
Got some vicodin from my dentist.

I'm totally jealous.

Damocles
08-14-2007, 01:59 PM
I'm totally jealous.
I have three old prescriptions still at home. I never use it all, I fear addiction.

Cancel7
08-14-2007, 02:01 PM
I have three old prescriptions still at home. I never use it all, I fear addiction.

I do too. But I have been able to fill a prescription, enjoy the heck out of it, and know that when it runs out, that's it. I did once consider buying them on the net, but I read about the effects on your liver, and I just decided I'm not going there. If I started doing that, I'd be hooked, and you know, you can't really pick up a new liver just anywhere.

evince
08-14-2007, 02:03 PM
I have never had a prescription drug I enjoyed the effect of.

uscitizen
08-14-2007, 02:06 PM
I have three old prescriptions still at home. I never use it all, I fear addiction.

Addiction beats pain.

Thorn
08-14-2007, 02:09 PM
I do too. But I have been able to fill a prescription, enjoy the heck out of it, and know that when it runs out, that's it. I did once consider buying them on the net, but I read about the effects on your liver, and I just decided I'm not going there. If I started doing that, I'd be hooked, and you know, you can't really pick up a new liver just anywhere.

You have to be really careful about liver damage with a lot of drugs; they all are processed first by the liver, after all, if they're taken orally. One of the bad ones is Advil and the other ibuprofens. It's a nuisance to read the package warnings, but nevertheless is a really good idea!

uscitizen
08-14-2007, 02:10 PM
You have to be really careful about liver damage with a lot of drugs; they all are processed first by the liver, after all, if they're taken orally. One of the bad ones is Advil and the others in its class. It's a nuisance to read the package warnings, but nevertheless is a really good idea!

Yep I have a full blood workup every 6 months. so far so good.
the 8 yrs I have been on pain pills would have been hell without them.

Cancel7
08-14-2007, 02:43 PM
You have to be really careful about liver damage with a lot of drugs; they all are processed first by the liver, after all, if they're taken orally. One of the bad ones is Advil and the other ibuprofens. It's a nuisance to read the package warnings, but nevertheless is a really good idea!

I know this now, but didn't for a long time, and I cringe when I think of all of the advils and motrins I've popped over the years without a second thought. Now I only take them if it's really bad. Really, only when I get a migraine these days. Thanks Thorn.

Beefy
08-14-2007, 04:52 PM
I do too. But I have been able to fill a prescription, enjoy the heck out of it, and know that when it runs out, that's it. I did once consider buying them on the net, but I read about the effects on your liver, and I just decided I'm not going there. If I started doing that, I'd be hooked, and you know, you can't really pick up a new liver just anywhere.

Unless you're David Crosby.

Anyhow, I'm the same way. Get the pills, have a party, and when they dry up, that's that. I've never really gotten them for illegitimate purposes, and if I do, its time to hit AA.

FUCK THE POLICE
08-14-2007, 10:12 PM
Addiction beats pain.

Addiction kicks ass.

FUCK THE POLICE
08-14-2007, 10:16 PM
You have to be really careful about liver damage with a lot of drugs; they all are processed first by the liver, after all, if they're taken orally. One of the bad ones is Advil and the other ibuprofens. It's a nuisance to read the package warnings, but nevertheless is a really good idea!

No, not Advil, Tylenol (Acetiminophen) is the one that's bad for your liver.

But you honestly have to take about 1000 MG's a day for it to have any effect on the liver, unless you drink like 3 shots a day.

Advil is chemically simialar to Aspirin. I've known people who've taken 50 Advil's and survived. If you tried that with Tylenol you'd be dead for sure of liver poisoning.

FUCK THE POLICE
08-14-2007, 10:18 PM
I know this now, but didn't for a long time, and I cringe when I think of all of the advils and motrins I've popped over the years without a second thought. Now I only take them if it's really bad. Really, only when I get a migraine these days. Thanks Thorn.

No, not really...

Advil is bad for your stomach (that's about it), but I think you could honestly take Tylenol everday for your entire life, and it wouldn't hurt much unless you started drinking heavily.

FUCK THE POLICE
08-14-2007, 10:20 PM
I do too. But I have been able to fill a prescription, enjoy the heck out of it, and know that when it runs out, that's it. I did once consider buying them on the net, but I read about the effects on your liver, and I just decided I'm not going there. If I started doing that, I'd be hooked, and you know, you can't really pick up a new liver just anywhere.

Vikoden is like a very weak version of morphine, Darla. It will, of course, make you feel good. And there's never been anything discovered that's as good for pain as these opiates. But, I honestly wouldn't recommend using them for fun. It's addictive as hell. Even if you ever got off the addiction, you'd probably lapse back into it after a year.

I really wouldn't worry about your liver, that's not the main side effect.

Beefy
08-14-2007, 10:23 PM
Vikoden is like a very weak version of morphine, Darla. It will, of course, make you feel good. And there's never been anything discovered that's as good for pain as these opiates. But, I honestly wouldn't recommend using them for fun. It's addictive as hell. Even if you ever got off the addiction, you'd probably lapse back into it after a year.

I really wouldn't worry about your liver, that's not the main side effect.

Thanks. a lot of help here. :rolleyes:

FUCK THE POLICE
08-14-2007, 10:36 PM
Actually, now that I think about it, Vikodin isn't even very bad for your liver.

cawacko
08-14-2007, 10:39 PM
You have to be really careful about liver damage with a lot of drugs; they all are processed first by the liver, after all, if they're taken orally. One of the bad ones is Advil and the other ibuprofens. It's a nuisance to read the package warnings, but nevertheless is a really good idea!

Serious question. When I go out drinking I have to take two or three advil or ibpurofen before bed or I have no chance of functioning the next day. I can't imagine combining the two is good for the body.

Can it do long term damage to your knowledge?

FUCK THE POLICE
08-14-2007, 10:40 PM
Serious question. When I go out drinking I have to take two or three advil or ibpurofen before bed or I have no chance of functioning the next day. I can't imagine combining the two is good for the body.

Can it do long term damage to your knowledge?

Advil is bad for your kidney, Caw. Not your liver. You'll be fine.

Someone who drinks as bad as you, however, should never touch Tylenol.

uscitizen
08-15-2007, 06:00 AM
Umm are you trained in medicine and such WM ? Thorn is...

Thorn
08-15-2007, 11:29 AM
No, not Advil, Tylenol (Acetiminophen) is the one that's bad for your liver.

But you honestly have to take about 1000 MG's a day for it to have any effect on the liver, unless you drink like 3 shots a day.

Advil is chemically simialar to Aspirin. I've known people who've taken 50 Advil's and survived. If you tried that with Tylenol you'd be dead for sure of liver poisoning.

Read the label, WM. It's not a problem with the one-time use, necessarily, but the effects of an accumulation over time. I'm not sure which enzyme is affected; the most abundant is P-450 but it may not be that one.

Both acetysalycylic acid (aspirin) and ibuprofen (Advil, Nuprin, Motrin, etc.) are antiinflammatory, whereas acetaminophen (Tylenol) is not. Aspirin also is a blood-thinner; ibuprofen is not.

You're right; you definitely should be extremely careful with Tylenol, but not necessarily because of its effects on the liver, at least not acutely. A representative anecdote:

A few years ago, a college athlete here (probably a football player) went to the Emergency facility at UMC with severe flu symptoms. I don't know why the first question they asked wasn't "what are you taking?", though they might have asked what he was taking for the flu and not anything else. On the other hand, perhaps he was so miserable that he didn't think of the huge doses of prescription-strength Tylenol he'd been taking (probably to excess) for a knee injury he'd suffered during a game. In any event, the staff at UMC gave him meds for his flu -- guess what? -- Tylenol! He hadn't had the flu at all; those symptoms are also typical of acute acetaminophen poisoning. He was 18 years old, in good shape, and he died. From Tylenol. It wasn't liver poisoning, but it was enough to shut down kidneys, etc., and to kill him.

I'll look up acetaminophen poisoning and get back to you for its exact effects if you like.

Thorn
08-15-2007, 12:47 PM
I stand corrected on the hepatotoxicity of acetaminophen (Tylenol). Apparently overdose of Tylenol is the greatest cause of acute liver failure both here and in the UK (and perhaps elsewhere). It has similar effects on the kidneys, through suppression of the same chemical, glutathione.

Acute overdose of ibuprofen, on the other hand, typically has few consequences, but it has been known (single overdose) to produce severe hypotension, cardiovascular shutdown, renal failure, and GI bleeding. Longer term of supra-pharmacologic doses (i.e. taking more than recommended over time) can affect liver, kidney, and the GI tract.

Neither Tylenol nor any of the NSAIDS (ibuprofen, e.g.) should be combined with alcohol because of their combined effect on the liver. This is especially dangerous with ibuprofen because immediate effects do not signal the damage caused over time.

Cancel7
08-15-2007, 12:48 PM
I stand corrected on the hepatotoxicity of acetaminophen (Tylenol). Apparently overdose of Tylenol is the greatest cause of acute liver failure both here and in the UK (and perhaps elsewhere). It has similar effects on the kidneys, through suppression of the same chemical, glutathione.

Acute overdose of ibuprofen, on the other hand, typically has few consequences, but it has been known (single overdose) to produce severe hypotension, cardiovascular shutdown, renal failure, and GI bleeding. Longer term of supra-pharmacologic doses (i.e. taking more than recommended over time) can affect liver, kidney, and the GI tract.

Neither Tylenol nor any of the NSAIDS (ibuprofen, e.g.) should be combined with alcohol because of their combined effect on the liver. This is especially dangerous with ibuprofen because immediate effects do not signal the damage caused over time.


Thanks for all the info thorn, it is very confusing to figure it out from news reports.

Beefy
08-15-2007, 12:49 PM
Which side is my liver on?

Battleborne
08-15-2007, 12:50 PM
Addiction beats pain.



Short term...yes...long term early death...your call!

Battleborne
08-15-2007, 12:52 PM
Which side is my liver on?



In your case probably hanging really low...aside the scrotum!...Ya love highs and fantasy..me thinks God helped ya out!

Cancel7
08-15-2007, 12:55 PM
Which side is my liver on?

It's on the right side of your abdomen beefy.

uscitizen
08-15-2007, 01:57 PM
I lost a good friend to liver failure. A drinker that took lots of tylenol for hangovers.

Thorn,
How is Naproxin ? I take 500 mg daily, along with lortab 7.5/500 or two. I have blood workups every 6 mos. And after 8 years still ok it seems.

FUCK THE POLICE
08-15-2007, 02:31 PM
I lost a good friend to liver failure. A drinker that took lots of tylenol for hangovers.

Thorn,
How is Naproxin ? I take 500 mg daily, along with lortab 7.5/500 or two. I have blood workups every 6 mos. And after 8 years still ok it seems.

Naproxin is like Ibuprofen and Aspirin, US. They're all part of the NSAID group.

Tylenol is a completely different drug and takes a different route.

That's about all I can tell you about it. I'm not sure if it has any additional effects.

FUCK THE POLICE
08-15-2007, 02:34 PM
Ibuprofen may cause drowsiness, dizziness, or blurred vision. Alcohol may intensify these effects and increase the risk of accidental injury. Use of alcohol during ibuprofen therapy increases the risk of stomach irritation and bleeding. People taking ibuprofen should avoid alcohol.

The main reason you shouldn't take advil with alcohol is that both are bad for your stomach. I've never heard of anyone dying of liver poisoning because of Advil. All drugs, obviously, have some kind of effect on the liver, it's just that tylenol is especially hard on it compared to most other drugs.

FUCK THE POLICE
08-15-2007, 02:35 PM
Umm are you trained in medicine and such WM ? Thorn is...

US, even Thorn admitted that she made a mistake there. I'm not making any of this up, I have a mind that reads something and absorbs it up and never lets it go.

Damocles
08-15-2007, 03:00 PM
Which side is my liver on?
Yes.

Damocles
08-15-2007, 03:01 PM
It's on the right side of your abdomen beefy.
It is on all of it. The liver is huge.

Thorn
08-15-2007, 03:14 PM
I lost a good friend to liver failure. A drinker that took lots of tylenol for hangovers.

Thorn,
How is Naproxin ? I take 500 mg daily, along with lortab 7.5/500 or two. I have blood workups every 6 mos. And after 8 years still ok it seems.

Sorry about your friend, usc. It's all too common for people to discount the dangers of OTC remedies just because they aren't regulated by prescription.

Your intake seems to be well regulated and you're being monitored as well. You should be fine.

Both ibuprofen and acetaminophen act on glutathione, but acetaminophen does to a far greater extent, to the point where a single overdose can be life-threatening. WM, I didn't say that ibuprofen was safe, just that a single overdose probably won't be life-threatening. Its dangers seem to lie in longterm overuse, and like anything else taken orally, this affects the liver and kidneys. This drug also carries dangers of intestinal bleeding and cardiovascular shutdown, in extreme cases.

It seems that ibuprofen and aspirin may work directly on pain receptors, but acetaminophen is a dissociative. So is morphine, but tylenol has no addictive potential. Now I don't want anyone trying this as it might be unique to me, but coupling tylenol with sudafed (I think that's the other active ingredient in Dayquil) had some consequences for me that were funny to everyone else -- but not really to me at the time. I almost never take anything, but one day I was coming down with quite a cold and was in the runny nose stage. We had a lab meeting I didn't want to miss, so decided to control the symptoms with Dayquil. I took it to work just in case it affected me so that my driving might suffer. Just before the lab meeting I measured out a dose and swallowed it. A few minutes later I stood up to walk to the conference room and couldn't feel my feet! No kidding, there's a disorder (the name I forget) where your feet just kind of flop when you pick them up; I was like that all the way into the meeting. Never, never again! It didn't affect me otherwise, and did stop the sniffing, but so does Contac-D without the extras.

uscitizen
08-15-2007, 03:16 PM
Which side is my liver on?

The inside.

Beefy
08-15-2007, 05:44 PM
I lost a good friend to liver failure. A drinker that took lots of tylenol for hangovers.

Thorn,
How is Naproxin ? I take 500 mg daily, along with lortab 7.5/500 or two. I have blood workups every 6 mos. And after 8 years still ok it seems.

Jesus, I do that alot. But I'm only 31. I'll stop at 40, and that'll be that.

FUCK THE POLICE
08-15-2007, 06:32 PM
Sudafed has acetiminaphen in it.

Tylenol has acetiminaphen in it. You took too much, but I don't see that making you unable to feel your feet.

FUCK THE POLICE
08-15-2007, 06:34 PM
"Both ibuprofen and acetaminophen act on glutathione, but acetaminophen does to a far greater extent, to the point where a single overdose can be life-threatening. WM, I didn't say that ibuprofen was safe, just that a single overdose probably won't be life-threatening. Its dangers seem to lie in longterm overuse, and like anything else taken orally, this affects the liver and kidneys. This drug also carries dangers of intestinal bleeding and cardiovascular shutdown, in extreme cases."

Ibuprofen is safe, just like everything else taken rightly. Taking it with alcohol won't hurt your liver, it affects the stomach.

FUCK THE POLICE
08-15-2007, 06:36 PM
Most liver failure is from alcohol. It's difficult to take enough acetiminphen to cause liver failure all on its lonesome without trying to commit suicide. If it were we'd be seeing a hell of a lot more deaths than we are seeing now - check your lables, acetiminaphen is in just about everything. People very often take much more than the recommend dosage of 1000 MG.

uscitizen
08-15-2007, 07:23 PM
Jesus, I do that alot. But I'm only 31. I'll stop at 40, and that'll be that.
Umm he was about 40 when he died Beefy....better hurry.

Beefy
08-15-2007, 07:25 PM
Umm he was about 40 when he died Beefy....better hurry.

Sweet mother of Mercy, I'll have to stop at 35. How bad of an alcoholic was he? I drink daily, but I only pop pills about thrice monthly.

uscitizen
08-15-2007, 07:27 PM
he drank beer daily and sometime bourbon or gin. They thlenol was pretty much daily as well. don't think he took many prescription pills.

Thorn
08-16-2007, 01:00 PM
Most liver failure is from alcohol.
Not any more! The data I described above came from studies published in peer-reviewed medical/scientific journals this year. Here's just one example:

1: Expert Opin Drug Saf. 2007 Jul;6(4):341-55. Links
Acetaminophen safety and hepatotoxicity - where do we go from here?Amar PJ, Schiff ER.
University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, Division of Hepatology, 1500 NW 12 Avenue, Suite 1101 East Tower, Miami, Florida 33136, USA.

Acetaminophen has been widely used for > 50 years in the treatment of pain and fever and provides for the safe and effective relief of these symptoms. In a small minority of patients, however, acetaminophen is responsible for life-threatening liver injury and accounts for up to 50% of all adult cases of acute liver failure in the US. Although approximately two-thirds of adult overdoses are associated with suicide attempts, many are inadvertent, often due to the use of multiple acetaminophen formulations over many days. Additionally, some individuals appear to experience acetaminophen toxicity at 'therapeutic' doses of < 4 g/day, for reasons unknown. In pediatric populations, the overwhelming majority of acetaminophen overdoses are due to unintentional overdoses, except for the predominance of suicidal ingestions in the teenage population. This article seeks to review the mechanism and metabolism of acetaminophen and the features of toxicity in adults, pediatric and special populations. Additionally, expert opinion is presented herein to aid in reducing the frequency and severity of liver injury from acetaminophen.


It's difficult to take enough acetiminphen to cause liver failure all on its lonesome without trying to commit suicide. If it were we'd be seeing a hell of a lot more deaths than we are seeing now - check your lables, acetiminaphen is in just about everything. People very often take much more than the recommend dosage of 1000 MG.

See above.

I'll PM you the link to the NIH/NLM site, along with the terms and limits I used to conduct the search. I limited it to pubs in just the past five years because the number of pubs was just overwhelming.

As we discussed at an earlier time, everything you take orally is processed by your liver. As some of the studies involving ibuprofen have shown, acute (one-time) ingestion of even a large quantity of ibuprofen does not appear to produce lasting liver damage; however, overuse over time will do so. If this is combined with alcohol the damage can be devastating. On the other hand, ibuprofen can cause intestinal bleeding independent of any effects on the liver. It's not an either/or situation; pharmacologic effects rarely, if ever, are.

Your liver functions to deal with everything that enters your digestive tract, but even its abundant enzymes are finite. When these are used to their limit, or when demand exceeds availability, especially repeatedly, then damage can and will occur, both at the level of the liver and in other organs that otherwise would have been protected by normal liver metabolism.

TRGLDTE
08-16-2007, 02:42 PM
Serious question. When I go out drinking I have to take two or three advil or ibpurofen before bed or I have no chance of functioning the next day. I can't imagine combining the two is good for the body.

Can it do long term damage to your knowledge?Alcohol and any medication is probably a bad idea. Do NOT mix Advil and Tylenol. Drink lots of water before bed - nothing ridiculous like a gallon, but a liter would probably do it.

TRGLDTE
08-16-2007, 02:45 PM
The main reason you shouldn't take advil with alcohol is that both are bad for your stomach. I've never heard of anyone dying of liver poisoning because of Advil. All drugs, obviously, have some kind of effect on the liver, it's just that tylenol is especially hard on it compared to most other drugs.
I have to take Advil with milk, otherwise it KILLS my stomach.

uscitizen
08-16-2007, 02:46 PM
I have to take Advil with milk, otherwise it KILLS my stomach.

Yeah same with my Naproxin, but it is not as bad on my stomach as advil.

Thorn
08-16-2007, 03:24 PM
Yeah same with my Naproxin, but it is not as bad on my stomach as advil.

Well, usc, I learned today, during that search, that the newer approach to treatment is just what you're taking; that the lortab gives pain relief that supplements those of your other meds. Because they're drugs of different classes and act differently, the combination protects you from the really nasty side effects of larger doses of either alone.

The semiannual blood tests will include readings of your liver enzymes, especially bilirubin, and of urea, which is an indication of effects on your intestines. This is a way of protecting you and making sure that your meds aren't causing you harm.