PDA

View Full Version : From Freedom To Fascism



Beefy
08-06-2007, 08:14 PM
This is Arron Russo's film about the state of economic affairs and the marriage between big money, the federal reserve, the IRS, and the NWO.

I'm no Asshat, I'm a reasonable man, and this film freaked me out.

Has anyone else here seen it?

I would like to hear from anyone who has seen it. It is truly alarming and disturbing.

You can view it here:

http://www.peter-north. com.

Whoops, actually, here is the real link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&q=freedom+to+fascism&total=1013&start=0&num=100&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 01:29 AM
sounds interesting, but my ISDN is too slowwwww.

Cancel7
08-07-2007, 07:34 AM
This is Arron Russo's film about the state of economic affairs and the marriage between big money, the federal reserve, the IRS, and the NWO.

I'm no Asshat, I'm a reasonable man, and this film freaked me out.

Has anyone else here seen it?

I would like to hear from anyone who has seen it. It is truly alarming and disturbing.

You can view it here:

http://www.peter-north. com.

Whoops, actually, here is the real link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&q=freedom+to+fascism&total=1013&start=0&num=100&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

No, I hadn't even heard of it. I'll try and watch it this week though. Things get really bad when you start thinking that asshat might be right, I know, I've been there.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 07:42 AM
This is Arron Russo's film about the state of economic affairs and the marriage between big money, the federal reserve, the IRS, and the NWO.

I'm no Asshat, I'm a reasonable man, and this film freaked me out.

Has anyone else here seen it?

I would like to hear from anyone who has seen it. It is truly alarming and disturbing.

You can view it here:

http://www.peter-north. com.

Whoops, actually, here is the real link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&q=freedom+to+fascism&total=1013&start=0&num=100&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

I'm reasonable. It's these fucking totalitarian facists that are unreasonable. Did you see that guy sitting there lying and then saying "there is no escape" in yiddish. if you won't believe it right from their own damn mouths then when will you?

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 07:44 AM
Fiat currency systems always lead to totalitarianism, because the only thing keeping up the currency is a military which enforces it as the "currency of the land", the only legal tender.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 07:48 AM
That guy reminded me of usc.

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 08:50 AM
LOL at AHZ. Nothing jooish about me. I don't even believe in the existance of Gawd.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 08:52 AM
LOL at AHZ. Nothing jooish about me. I don't even believe in the existance of Gawd.

but you're a globalist, globalism being a secular disguise over the talmudic concept of Olam Ha Ba.

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 08:57 AM
AHZ I see that some form of globalism is inevitable unless the world goes back to a bunch of isolationalist countries.
You would miss all your electronics and such if we did AHZ.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 09:12 AM
AHZ I see that some form of globalism is inevitable unless the world goes back to a bunch of isolationalist countries.
You would miss all your electronics and such if we did AHZ.

Some form. Im not against trading between nations, I'm against fiat currency, as a form of statist control, the maniuplation of fiat currency value against other fiat currency value as a tool of social engineering, and I'm against trade with nations which are totalitarian and have no western style freedoms of expression and conduct. We shouldn't force americans to compete with slaves, or anyone to compete with slaves. This trend will guarantee the rollback and eventual elimination of freedom on earth.

Considering these fundamental flaws in the sytem. The globalist system as is needs to be completely redone.

Globalism as implement now is really just the concept that people have no right to say no to shitty sell out deals motivated by the self interest of their leadership.

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 09:42 AM
Some form. Im not against trading between nations, I'm against fiat currency, as a form of statist control, the maniuplation of fiat currency value against other fiat currency value as a tool of social engineering, and I'm against trade with nations which are totalitarian and have no western style freedoms of expression and conduct. We shouldn't force americans to compete with slaves, or anyone to compete with slaves. This trend will guarantee the rollback and eventual elimination of freedom on earth.

Considering these fundamental flaws in the sytem. The globalist system as is needs to be completely redone.

Globalism is really just the concept that people have no right to say no to shitty sell out deals motivated by the self interest of their leadership.

That is where the republicans (primarially) have led us .
and many of us were eager to be led to fullfill our greed.

I forget did you vote for Bush AHZ ?
Or were you old enough to vote ?

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 09:51 AM
That is where the republicans (primarially) have led us .
and many of us were eager to be led to fullfill our greed.

I forget did you vote for Bush AHZ ?
Or were you old enough to vote ?


So since the republicans got us here, you want to stay so you can keep blaming them, or would you rather undo all this horsecrap? I mean, if you had your 'druthers.

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 10:00 AM
Keep blaming them ? I place blame where blame is due. they were the ringleaders in this debacle. I also thingk the dems that bowed to the chicken little manipulation suck as well. Just not quite as badly as the ringleaders.

did you vote for Bush ? If so you enabled much of the NWO gloabalization mess you are so hot about.

Beefy
08-07-2007, 11:13 AM
I'm reasonable. It's these fucking totalitarian facists that are unreasonable. Did you see that guy sitting there lying and then saying "there is no escape" in yiddish. if you won't believe it right from their own damn mouths then when will you?

Yes. That was alarming. All this shit is right there on tape. I'm genuinely freaked out.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 11:19 AM
Yes. That was alarming. All this shit is right there on tape. I'm genuinely freaked out.


Dude, don't freak out. Spread the knowledge. They rely on people being ignorant, or calling them names like "populist" or "protectionist" or "socialist", or "antisemitic". All we're calling for are reasonable policy changes. they are the radicals.

Beefy
08-07-2007, 11:21 AM
Dude, don't freak out. Spread the knowledge. They rely on people being ignorant, or calling them names like "populist" or "protectionist" or "socialist", or "antisemitic". All we're calling for are reasonable policy changes. they are the radicals.

Well, I'm not freaking out, I am freaked out. I'm not running around in my underwear screaming the end is near, I am alarmed. This film is truly ground breaking in my opinion. It lays it out clearly.

Everyone in this country should watch this film. There IS serious shit to be very alarmed about, that I was completely unaware of until I saw the film.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 11:44 AM
Well, I'm not freaking out, I am freaked out. I'm not running around in my underwear screaming the end is near, I am alarmed. This film is truly ground breaking in my opinion. It lays it out clearly.

Everyone in this country should watch this film. There IS serious shit to be very alarmed about, that I was completely unaware of until I saw the film.

Yep. We have serious work ahead of us. So pull it together and get on the good foot.

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 12:46 PM
A tape is like paper and does not care what you put on it.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 12:47 PM
A tape is like paper and does not care what you put on it.


Which is like your nose and doesn't mind a little brown.

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 12:54 PM
Which is like your nose and doesn't mind a little brown.
LOL, you are the anally fixated one.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 12:56 PM
LOL, you are the anally fixated one.

When I was little, mommy praised me for pooping.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 01:00 PM
Have you watched the video, usc? It is fascinating.

Beefy
08-07-2007, 01:08 PM
Have you watched the video, usc? It is fascinating.

He hasn't. But it really is a facsinating video. The former IRS agents spoke volumes.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 01:15 PM
I'm thinking of paying the dollar to get it on DVD.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 01:17 PM
He hasn't. But it really is a facsinating video. The former IRS agents spoke volumes.
The Former Commissioner specifically. "You are going to take a decision by the Supreme Court and 'superimpose' it on the laws?"

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 01:20 PM
Have you watched the video, usc? It is fascinating.

Nope too slow on my pokey ISDN.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 01:21 PM
I'm reasonable. It's these fucking totalitarian facists that are unreasonable. Did you see that guy sitting there lying and then saying "there is no escape" in yiddish. if you won't believe it right from their own damn mouths then when will you?
Did you notice he was speaking to a Jew. And what he said was "Nothing will help you."

evince
08-07-2007, 01:23 PM
I want to see it ,is it at the stores?

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 01:24 PM
Did you notice he was speaking to a Jew. And what he said was "Nothing will help you."

Yes. I couldn't remember the exact quote.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 01:26 PM
His analogy of comparing the coercive illegal actions of the irs to stopping at a stop sign was quite hilarious.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 01:32 PM
His analogy of comparing the coercive illegal actions of the irs to stopping at a stop sign was quite hilarious.
And then saying it was "voluntary compliance" to stop at a stop sign when it is clearly written as mandatory.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 01:33 PM
And then saying it was "voluntary compliance" to stop at a stop sign when it is clearly written as mandatory.

Yes.

Aaron Russo owned that fucker.

Beefy
08-07-2007, 01:55 PM
I was impressed by Ron Paul in this film also.

And the current commissioner of the IRS, when asked "where is the law" went into a diatribe about how important taxes are and this and that, while patently avoiding the question.

The Lou Dobbs segment, the national ID, which I will refuse to get, the chips all that shit. What happened to this country? You now need permission from big brother for all kinds of shit. I believe that if the Founding Fathers were alive today, they would be encouraging a revolution.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 01:57 PM
I was impressed by Ron Paul in this film also.

And the current commissioner of the IRS, when asked "where is the law" went into a diatribe about how important taxes are and this and that, while patently avoiding the question.

The Lou Dobbs segment, the national ID, which I will refuse to get, the chips all that shit. What happened to this country? You now need permission from big brother for all kinds of shit. I believe that if the Founding Fathers were alive today, they would be encouraging a revolution.
lol. I was just coming in to say, "I was impressed by Ron Paul in this video."

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 01:59 PM
Keep blaming them ? I place blame where blame is due. they were the ringleaders in this debacle. I also thingk the dems that bowed to the chicken little manipulation suck as well. Just not quite as badly as the ringleaders.

did you vote for Bush ? If so you enabled much of the NWO gloabalization mess you are so hot about.

I didn't actually. I didn't vote.

But you use this blame game to avoid discussing getting out of the situation.

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 02:01 PM
You all do know that if a nuclear attack happens on the USA getting the IRS back on track is a higher priority than taking care of the injured don't you ?

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 02:03 PM
I didn't actually. I didn't vote.

But you use this blame game to avoid discussing getting out of the situation.

My vote is the only way I can help to get us out of this situation. And you did not even use that tool ....
or use our consumer power, and you won't even stop buying chinese imports....

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 02:08 PM
My vote is the only way I can help to get us out of this situation. And you did not even use that tool ....
or use our consumer power, and you won't even stop buying chinese imports....

No. You can quit presenting their fucked up plan as some sort of enlightenment, asshopper.

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 02:10 PM
No. You can quit presenting their fucked up plan as some sort of enlightenment, asshopper.

You are the delusional one with the anal perversion.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 02:12 PM
You are the delusional one with the anal perversion.

Go on guru. Tell us how it's all such a grand, sophisticated, and utopian plan.

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 02:14 PM
Go on guru. Tell us how it's all such a grand, sophisticated, and utopian plan.
I have never said that asshatter.
And you are a liar for implying that I have.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 02:17 PM
I have never said that asshatter.
And you are a liar for implying that I have.

No I'm not. You've implied it over and over again on multiple threads. You get a little truckstop land and you go fascist. Sad.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 02:21 PM
Desh would like the end of the video when they start talking about voting software.

Cypress
08-07-2007, 02:34 PM
This is Arron Russo's film about the state of economic affairs and the marriage between big money, the federal reserve, the IRS, and the NWO.

I'm no Asshat, I'm a reasonable man, and this film freaked me out.

Has anyone else here seen it?

I would like to hear from anyone who has seen it. It is truly alarming and disturbing.

You can view it here:

http://www.peter-north. com.

Whoops, actually, here is the real link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&q=freedom+to+fascism&total=1013&start=0&num=100&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


I haven't seen it, but anyone who makes a video of a conspiracy between the NWO, the Federal Reserve, and the IRS, sounds like a snake oil salesman to me. There a lot of money to be made, catering to conspiracy theories. Its human nature to be attracted to them - and more importantly, its human nature to spend money on products from people who promote them.

The problems we face with regard to globalization, plutocracy, and oligarchy are right in front of our face, and well known. Well known issues regarding labor, wages, public interest, and the flow of capital to slave wage countries. Tin foil hat stuff just distracts us, and well as enriching the pockets of the cottage industry of conspiracy theory hucksters.

Anyway, this isn't meant as a slam. Just MO.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 02:43 PM
I haven't seen it, but anyone who makes a video of a conspiracy between the NWO, the Federal Reserve, and the IRS, sounds like a snake oil salesman to me. There a lot of money to be made, catering to conspiracy theories. Its human nature to be attracted to them - and more importantly, its human nature to spend money on products from people who promote them.

The problems we face with regard to globalization, plutocracy, and oligarchy are right in front of our face, and well known. Well known issues regarding labor, wages, public interest, and the flow of capital to slave wage countries. Tin foil hat stuff just distracts us, and well as enriching the pockets of the cottage industry of conspiracy theory hucksters.

Anyway, this isn't meant as a slam. Just MO.
It is free to watch, the full version and if you want to buy it, it only costs $1 he clearly isn't doing this for profit.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 02:44 PM
I haven't seen it, but anyone who makes a video of a conspiracy between the NWO, the Federal Reserve, and the IRS, sounds like a snake oil salesman to me. There a lot of money to be made, catering to conspiracy theories. Its human nature to be attracted to them - and more importantly, its human nature to spend money on products from people who promote them.

The problems we face with regard to globalization, plutocracy, and oligarchy are right in front of our face, and well known. Well known issues regarding labor, wages, public interest, and the flow of capital to slave wage countries. Tin foil hat stuff just distracts us, and well as enriching the pockets of the cottage industry of conspiracy theory hucksters.

Anyway, this isn't meant as a slam. Just MO.

Don't be a moron. The insitutions mentioned are the backbone of the globalization, plutocrachy, and oligarchy you fear.

The international components these american institutions interface with are the World Bank, THe IMF, The WTO, and G8.

Beefy
08-07-2007, 03:46 PM
I haven't seen it, but anyone who makes a video of a conspiracy between the NWO, the Federal Reserve, and the IRS, sounds like a snake oil salesman to me. There a lot of money to be made, catering to conspiracy theories. Its human nature to be attracted to them - and more importantly, its human nature to spend money on products from people who promote them.

The problems we face with regard to globalization, plutocracy, and oligarchy are right in front of our face, and well known. Well known issues regarding labor, wages, public interest, and the flow of capital to slave wage countries. Tin foil hat stuff just distracts us, and well as enriching the pockets of the cottage industry of conspiracy theory hucksters.

Anyway, this isn't meant as a slam. Just MO.

90% of this film comes straight from the horse's mouth.

If you haven't seen it, don't slam it. You might be surprised. Its free, take a couple of hours and watch it. Then your opinion will have a basis, until then it has none.

Cypress
08-07-2007, 04:00 PM
90% of this film comes straight from the horse's mouth.

If you haven't seen it, don't slam it. You might be surprised. Its free, take a couple of hours and watch it. Then your opinion will have a basis, until then it has none.


Dude, this is on Wiki, so its not a 100% guarantee that its true: but it sounds bad...This Russo dude claims he showed his film at the acclaimed Cannes Film festival - but according to NY Times all he did was set up an inflatable screen on the beach at Cannes, and showed it to a small group of people. The film itself wasn't on the Cannes Festival Billing.


Russo's promotional materials state that the film was shown at "Cannes" in France. As of July 31, 2006, the web site (at www.freedomtofascism.com) states:

America: Freedom to Fascism Opens to Standing Ovations at Cannes!
The international audience at Cannes as well as the European media has been fascinated by Russo’s fiery diatribe against the direction America is heading [ . . . ]

According to a New York Times article by David Cay Johnston on July 31, 2006, however, the film was not "on the program" at the 2006 Cannes Film Festival itself; Russo actually rented an inflatable screen and showed the film on the beach at the town of Cannes during the time of the film festival. The New York Times article states: "Photographs posted at one of Mr. Russo's Web sites depict an audience of fewer than 50 people spread out on a platform on the sand."[10]

Cypress
08-07-2007, 04:07 PM
Don't be a moron. The insitutions mentioned are the backbone of the globalization, plutocrachy, and oligarchy you fear.

The international components these american institutions interface with are the World Bank, THe IMF, The WTO, and G8.


First of all, anyone who uses the acronym NWO is suspect as a crackpot.

Second, calm down. The IRS and the Fed, exist only on paper. They're not "people", and they're not even animate objects. Their only an inanimate beaucratic entity that exists only on paper.

Its not institutions that are the threat. Institutions are only buearacratic tools that can be used for either ill or good. Depending on the interests they represent.

I mean, Sweden is a member of WTO. And Sweden is allegedly on of the most egalitarian and euntrepenuerial countries on the planet. I don't think Swedes are fretting about WTO taking over their country. Likewise, I'm sure Sweden has a revenue collection authority similar to IRS. Its just a tool. Its not, in and of itself, anything evil. Its just an organization that exists on paper.

I DO think some of our instutions have been corrupted by PEOPLE. Policitians that are bought and sold by speical interests, and use these institutions to promote the special interests, and not the public interests.

There's nothing inherently evil about inanimate institutions that simply exist on paper. Its the interests and people who use those institutions, and to what end.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 04:17 PM
First of all, anyone who uses the acronym NWO is suspect as a crackpot.

Second, calm down. The IRS and the Fed, exist only on paper. They're not "people", and they're not even animate objects. Their only an inanimate beaucratic entity that exists only on paper.


Their influence is immense you ignorant jackass. You're just an ignorant sot.



Its not institutions that are the threat. Institutions are only buearacratic tools that can be used for either ill or good. Depending on the interests they represent.

WHen the policies the institutions enforce are bad, they are, in fact, bad institutions. You're basically just a moronic idiot if you the the fed, irs, and all the other orgs have no influence or may in fact be good. Their very existence is premised on their intent to do harm, ultimately.



I mean, Sweden is a member of WTO. And Sweden is allegedly on of the most egalitarian and euntrepenuerial countries on the planet. I don't think Swedes are fretting about WTO taking over their country. Likewise, I'm sure Sweden has a revenue collection authority similar to IRS. Its just a tool. Its not, in and of itself, anything evil. Its just an organization that exists on paper.


WE have been the enforcer of the NWO since wwII. I think many are just realizing that the beast is set to destroy it's own people in time.


I DO think some of our instutions have been corrupted by PEOPLE. Policitians that are bought and sold by speical interests, and use these institutions to promote the special interests, and not the public interests.

There's nothing inherently evil about inanimate institutions that simply exist on paper. Its the interests and people who use those institutions, and to what end.

Everything's on paper. The laws, the constitution. We give things on paper actual force through enacting the written things into law and enforcing those laws.


You have gone completely retarded.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 04:21 PM
Cypress, have you watched the video?

Beefy
08-07-2007, 04:29 PM
Dude, this is on Wiki, so its not a 100% guarantee that its true: but it sounds bad...This Russo dude claims he showed his film at the acclaimed Cannes Film festival - but according to NY Times all he did was set up an inflatable screen on the beach at Cannes, and showed it to a small group of people. The film itself wasn't on the Cannes Festival Billing.

I really don't care if he overblew his publicity on releasing the film. That's completely and utterly meaningless to me. Whar I would like to hear is what in his film is untrue, misleading, or a lie, because frankly, I HOPE its all bullshit. But it doesn't appear so, and I don't see how it could be painted as such. That's why I asked for opinions of people who saw it.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 05:11 PM
I knew cypress was a fascist. Anyone who thinks che gueverra is some sort of hero has to be fucking sick.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 05:19 PM
These people are not opposed to totalitarianism under any name, theocracy, atheist people's republic, Trade Federation syndicalism. Totalitarianism means they have to only bribe a few or even ONE leader to get monopoly contracts for services and products. They actually PREFER this. Competition and choice means they have to actually care what people think. They'd rather not go there.

Cypress
08-07-2007, 06:54 PM
I really don't care if he overblew his publicity on releasing the film. That's completely and utterly meaningless to me. Whar I would like to hear is what in his film is untrue, misleading, or a lie, because frankly, I HOPE its all bullshit. But it doesn't appear so, and I don't see how it could be painted as such. That's why I asked for opinions of people who saw it.


You gotta admit, its totally funny that he promotes this as a film that was shown at the prestigious Cannes Film Festival, when in fact all he did was rent a screen and show it on the beach to a few people at Cannes. HaHa

Cypress
08-07-2007, 06:56 PM
I knew cypress was a fascist. Anyone who thinks che gueverra is some sort of hero has to be fucking sick.


This is a classic cry for attention. Sorry dude, I'm going back to ignoring you. Throwing temper tantrums like this, and stomping your feet on the ground is not an appropriate way to get the adult's attention.

Beefy
08-07-2007, 07:02 PM
You gotta admit, its totally funny that he promotes this as a film that was shown at the prestigious Cannes Film Festival, when in fact all he did was rent a screen and show it on the beach to a few people at Cannes. HaHa

But its also immatterial, if even true.

Cancel7
08-07-2007, 07:04 PM
I haven't seen it, but anyone who makes a video of a conspiracy between the NWO, the Federal Reserve, and the IRS, sounds like a snake oil salesman to me. There a lot of money to be made, catering to conspiracy theories. Its human nature to be attracted to them - and more importantly, its human nature to spend money on products from people who promote them.

The problems we face with regard to globalization, plutocracy, and oligarchy are right in front of our face, and well known. Well known issues regarding labor, wages, public interest, and the flow of capital to slave wage countries. Tin foil hat stuff just distracts us, and well as enriching the pockets of the cottage industry of conspiracy theory hucksters.

Anyway, this isn't meant as a slam. Just MO.


I guess I will have to watch it, but I am so exhausted. I have been going through this same thing, for weeks, culminating in a confrontation tonight, about that film "loose change" in my group. We have this new member Eileen, who is driving me crazy. Just nuts. And she keeps insisting that she wants to bring these guys to our next meeting, they want to talk to us. And I'm like, look, i believe the adminstration had enough info to know something was coming down, and did nothing to stop it, but that's as far as I can go, and no, I don't think that 9/11 was "an inside job". And I dont' want these people at our meeting, because guess what? They are either fbi themselves, or being watched by the fbi. This nut Eileen is not going to be happy until we are all in jail, and she has a real attitude problem to boot.

anyway, even if it was an inside job, it will never be proved. I feel like this movie is going to be a lot like loose change, and I will watch it, but I'm too tired for it right now.

Cypress
08-07-2007, 07:06 PM
But its also immatterial, if even true.

The episode on the Cannes beach, brings images to mind of what I was talking about: The huckster who - for profit - peddles on people's love affair for wild conspiracy theories.

Not saying its true, but is a typical huckster behaviour ;)

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 07:06 PM
This is a classic cry for attention. Sorry dude, I'm going back to ignoring you. Throwing temper tantrums like this, and stomping your feet on the ground is not an appropriate way to get the adult's attention.


Cry for attention? WHere? I'm just saying, anyone who respects Che Gueveraa is ignorant or sick.

all about che

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/24/212049.shtml

Cypress
08-07-2007, 07:08 PM
I guess I will have to watch it, but I am so exhausted. I have been going through this same thing, for weeks, culminating in a confrontation tonight, about that film "loose change" in my group. We have this new member Eileen, who is driving me crazy. Just nuts. And she keeps insisting that she wants to bring these guys to our next meeting, they want to talk to us. And I'm like, look, i believe the adminstration had enough info to know something was coming down, and did nothing to stop it, but that's as far as I can go, and no, I don't think that 9/11 was "an inside job". And I dont' want these people at our meeting, because guess what? They are either fbi themselves, or being watched by the fbi. This nut Eileen is not going to be happy until we are all in jail, and she has a real attitude problem to boot.

anyway, even if it was an inside job, it will never be proved. I feel like this movie is going to be a lot like loose change, and I will watch it, but I'm too tired for it right now.

I'm with you on this. I can see why this is bugging you. I don't like wasting valuable time chasing ghosts, when the crimes that are real and obvious are right in front of our face.

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 07:19 PM
I guess I will have to watch it, but I am so exhausted. I have been going through this same thing, for weeks, culminating in a confrontation tonight, about that film "loose change" in my group. We have this new member Eileen, who is driving me crazy. Just nuts. And she keeps insisting that she wants to bring these guys to our next meeting, they want to talk to us. And I'm like, look, i believe the adminstration had enough info to know something was coming down, and did nothing to stop it, but that's as far as I can go, and no, I don't think that 9/11 was "an inside job". And I dont' want these people at our meeting, because guess what? They are either fbi themselves, or being watched by the fbi. This nut Eileen is not going to be happy until we are all in jail, and she has a real attitude problem to boot.

anyway, even if it was an inside job, it will never be proved. I feel like this movie is going to be a lot like loose change, and I will watch it, but I'm too tired for it right now.

damn, darla, you're so willfully gullable and sheeplike. "Our leaders would never lie to us or do bad stuff, they're good people." What are you, five?

Hermes Thoth
08-07-2007, 07:20 PM
I'm with you on this. I can see why this is bugging you. I don't like wasting valuable time chasing ghosts, when the crimes that are real and obvious are right in front of our face.


Ghosts. Yeah, the federal reserve and IRS are just ghosts. You're fully 100% idiot compliant.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 04:17 AM
damn, darla, you're so willfully gullable and sheeplike. "Our leaders would never lie to us or do bad stuff, they're good people." What are you, five?

So you think that bush and cheney planned, and committed the 9/11 attacks?

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 05:07 AM
So you think that bush and cheney planned, and committed the 9/11 attacks?

Knew about, planned, allowed, not committed. It's entirely possible. Leaders let things happen or even plan them to motivate the people.

Are you a bushbot now?

I'm positive that the IRS and Federals Reserver are real though, real criminal.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 05:15 AM
Knew about, planned, allowed, not committed. It's entirely possible. Leaders let things happen or even plan them to motivate the people.

Are you a bushbot now?

I'm positive that the IRS and Federals Reserver are real though, real criminal.

It's entirely possible they knew something big was going to happen, there is evidence pointing to that. It's entirely possible they actively let it happen. It's also possible they really are that incompetent. Though I lean towards, they actively let it happen.

It is not reasonable to state with certainity that you know for a fact that Bush and Cheney planned and perpetuated the attacks, because you saw the beams in the WTC and concluded they could not have been brought down by merely planes. It is not reasonable to watch a sloppy "documentary" like loose change, which has multiple problems, misrepresentations, assumptions, and leaps, and state "that's fact".

I haven't watched this film yet that is being discussed on this thread, so I can't give a judgement either way on it.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 05:28 AM
It's entirely possible they knew something big was going to happen, there is evidence pointing to that. It's entirely possible they actively let it happen. It's also possible they really are that incompetent. Though I lean towards, they actively let it happen.

It is not reasonable to state with certainity that you know for a fact that Bush and Cheney planned and perpetuated the attacks, because you saw the beams in the WTC and concluded they could not have been brought down by merely planes. It is not reasonable to watch a sloppy "documentary" like loose change, which has multiple problems, misrepresentations, assumptions, and leaps, and state "that's fact".

I haven't watched this film yet that is being discussed on this thread, so I can't give a judgement either way on it.

I didn't state with certainty or said I know for a fact, so get off your long winded bullshit-self and watch the relevant media.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 05:38 AM
I didn't state with certainty or said I know for a fact, so get off your long winded bullshit-self and watch the relevant media.

You called me a bushbot because I was saying that you can't state it with certainty. But, I'm glad to see you've come around to my way of thinking on this.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 06:28 AM
You called me a bushbot because I was saying that you can't state it with certainty. But, I'm glad to see you've come around to my way of thinking on this.

I haven't. You're still afraid of exposing "the group" to unorthodox ideas. Whatever "your group" is. I say watch the video, let them decide. Don't be a nazi about it.

Cypress
08-08-2007, 06:53 AM
The very fact that AHZ is pimping this movie, makes me almost certain I don't need to see it.

Look, Bin Laden brought down the WTC. Even the mere suggestion that Bush planted explosives makes one look like a wild eyed loon. I have no doubt that bush ignored warnings and was massively incompetent. I believe that Bush/Cheney/Rove took a tragedy like 9/11, and used it for political gain. That's as far as evidence and logic can possibly take me at this point.

As for this movie, I checked the reviews on it. Reportedly, about half the movie is an anti-tax rant. That the income tax is unconstitutional, and that the income tax was a massive conspiracy in conjuction with the Federal Reserve and IRS, to rule america. Sorry. I've seen this rant before. And I don't believe for a second, that for the last 80 years, there was some concious and deliberate effort by a cabal of NWO-types, who constructed the income tax, IRS, and Federal reserve for this purpose. And somehow, for 80 years it was kept secret.

Is it possible that business interests, and their bought and paid for politicians exploit the system? Yes. Get money out of politics (public financing) and 90% of the influence of business interests is dissapated.

Now, evidently the guy that made the movie has a lot of good points on the patriot act, and REAL ID. But, there are plenty of other worthwhile sources I can go to about that, rather than having to sit through your standard Libertarian anti-tax rant.

;)

Damocles
08-08-2007, 07:16 AM
The very fact that AHZ is pimping this movie, makes me almost certain I don't need to see it.

Look, Bin Laden brought down the WTC. Even the mere suggestion that Bush planted explosives makes one look like a wild eyed loon. I have no doubt that bush ignored warnings and was massively incompetent. I believe that Bush/Cheney/Rove took a tragedy like 9/11, and used it for political gain. That's as far as evidence and logic can possibly take me at this point.

As for this movie, I checked the reviews on it. Reportedly, about half the movie is an anti-tax rant. That the income tax is unconstitutional, and that the income tax was a massive conspiracy in conjuction with the Federal Reserve and IRS, to rule america. Sorry. I've seen this rant before. And I don't believe for a second, that for the last 80 years, there was some concious and deliberate effort by a cabal of NWO-types, who constructed the income tax, IRS, and Federal reserve for this purpose. And somehow, for 80 years it was kept secret.

Is it possible that business interests, and their bought and paid for politicians exploit the system? Yes. Get money out of politics (public financing) and 90% of the influence of business interests is dissapated.

Now, evidently the guy that made the movie has a lot of good points on the patriot act, and REAL ID. But, there are plenty of other worthwhile sources I can go to about that, rather than having to sit through your standard Libertarian anti-tax rant.

;)
Watch the movie. It is at least interesting. Crap, I watched Farenheit 9/11 and by all the reviews I read it was an anti-Bush rant that was leading...

Russo made a good and very informative flick, IMO.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 07:32 AM
I haven't. You're still afraid of exposing "the group" to unorthodox ideas. Whatever "your group" is. I say watch the video, let them decide. Don't be a nazi about it.

Everyone in my group has watched the video and come to their own conclusion.

Cypress
08-08-2007, 07:32 AM
Watch the movie. It is at least interesting. Crap, I watched Farenheit 9/11 and by all the reviews I read it was an anti-Bush rant that was leading...

Russo made a good and very informative flick, IMO.

I don't think MM ever said anything truly crazy - like bush blew up the WTC.

MM's movies are pretty much fact-based. You can argue whether he ignores certain facts in favor of others.

MM's speculations are within the realm of logic and possibility - not crazy shit: that we might have gone to war for oil. That seems like a logical speculation to me.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 07:37 AM
The very fact that AHZ is pimping this movie, makes me almost certain I don't need to see it.

Look, Bin Laden brought down the WTC. Even the mere suggestion that Bush planted explosives makes one look like a wild eyed loon. I have no doubt that bush ignored warnings and was massively incompetent. I believe that Bush/Cheney/Rove took a tragedy like 9/11, and used it for political gain. That's as far as evidence and logic can possibly take me at this point.

As for this movie, I checked the reviews on it. Reportedly, about half the movie is an anti-tax rant. That the income tax is unconstitutional, and that the income tax was a massive conspiracy in conjuction with the Federal Reserve and IRS, to rule america. Sorry. I've seen this rant before. And I don't believe for a second, that for the last 80 years, there was some concious and deliberate effort by a cabal of NWO-types, who constructed the income tax, IRS, and Federal reserve for this purpose. And somehow, for 80 years it was kept secret.

Is it possible that business interests, and their bought and paid for politicians exploit the system? Yes. Get money out of politics (public financing) and 90% of the influence of business interests is dissapated.

Now, evidently the guy that made the movie has a lot of good points on the patriot act, and REAL ID. But, there are plenty of other worthwhile sources I can go to about that, rather than having to sit through your standard Libertarian anti-tax rant.

;)

I think I have this movie on dvd. Someone gave it to me at a rally. I have to check tonight,but the way you are describing it, this has to be the same film. I have not watched it yet.

Exactly right about looking like wild-eyed nuts. That is what I feel this girl is doing to NY Codepink, and that is what the struggle is about. I will even go a step further than you, and say that I really do strongly lean towards it was a bit more than incompetence, that they let it happen, but they did not know exactly what it was going to be, just that a big hit was coming down here.

I personally doubt they were involved in it or planned it. But, and this is the most important thing, it doesnt' matter. Say they did. No one will ever prove it, it will be argued abotu for generations, like the grassy knoll. And it is irrelevent to Codepink, which is a grass roots organization of women agitating for peace. We do not need to be looked at as nuts by the general population. That is exactly what they would love for all anti-war people to do; start screaming that 9/11 was an inside job, and thus make yourself, and your message, completely irrelevant.

Damocles
08-08-2007, 07:50 AM
I don't think MM ever said anything truly crazy - like bush blew up the WTC.

MM's movies are pretty much fact-based. You can argue whether he ignores certain facts in favor of others.

MM's speculations are within the realm of logic and possibility - not crazy shit: that we might have gone to war for oil. That seems like a logical speculation to me.
The movie may cover "crazy sh*t" but it isn't itself in that vein. It begins by attempting to prove the IRS right then continues.

Much like another who didn't watch Moore's movie really has no idea what it was by reading, oh a blog, you don't know what this one is like by reading a review. I watched it based on Beefy's endorsement, I was surprised by the movie.

Cypress
08-08-2007, 08:30 AM
I think I have this movie on dvd. Someone gave it to me at a rally. I have to check tonight,but the way you are describing it, this has to be the same film. I have not watched it yet.

Exactly right about looking like wild-eyed nuts. That is what I feel this girl is doing to NY Codepink, and that is what the struggle is about. I will even go a step further than you, and say that I really do strongly lean towards it was a bit more than incompetence, that they let it happen, but they did not know exactly what it was going to be, just that a big hit was coming down here.

I personally doubt they were involved in it or planned it. But, and this is the most important thing, it doesnt' matter. Say they did. No one will ever prove it, it will be argued abotu for generations, like the grassy knoll. And it is irrelevent to Codepink, which is a grass roots organization of women agitating for peace. We do not need to be looked at as nuts by the general population. That is exactly what they would love for all anti-war people to do; start screaming that 9/11 was an inside job, and thus make yourself, and your message, completely irrelevant.


Well said.

I think that CP gal you're talking about, actually hurts rather than helps the cause. Credibility is key. We have to focus on real crimes, facts, and evidence.

I don't doubt for a second that Bush ignored the warnings at best, or he sort of vaguely knew an attack was coming and did little to stop it, at worst. And of course, they exploited it when it happened.

As far as him either knowing the specific date, and location (WTC), or even suggesting he planted the bombs - I ain't going there. Until somebody shows me the credible and convincing evidence.


Bin Laden did the actual attack. It looks crazy to suggest otherwise.

DigitalDave
08-08-2007, 08:33 AM
The movie may cover "crazy sh*t" but it isn't itself in that vein. It begins by attempting to prove the IRS right then continues.

Much like another who didn't watch Moore's movie really has no idea what it was by reading, oh a blog, you don't know what this one is like by reading a review. I watched it based on Beefy's endorsement, I was surprised by the movie.

Guys.. Title 26... I am with you guys as a fellow libertarian telling you to just pay your taxes :( Title 26 of the U.S. Code defines taxable income and says we have to pay taxes. I asked the same question before and found my answer, unfortunatly.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 08:33 AM
Well said.

I think that CP gal you're talking about, actually hurts rather than helps the cause. Credibility is key. We have to focus on real crimes, facts, and evidence.

I don't doubt for a second that Bush ignored the warnings at best, or he sort of vaguely knew an attack was coming and did little to stop it, at worst. And of course, they exploited it when it happened.

As far as him either knowing the specific date, and location (WTC), or even suggesting he planted the bombs - I ain't going there. Until somebody shows me the credible and convincing evidence.


Bin Laden did the actual attack. It looks crazy to suggest otherwise.


I know. You would not believe the shit I have had to listen to, about the WTC being packed with bombs, and the fbi coming in and out of there in the weeks before the "bombing". It's crazy stuff, and I feel the same way, show me some proof, or just go away.

Cypress
08-08-2007, 08:34 AM
The movie may cover "crazy sh*t" but it isn't itself in that vein. It begins by attempting to prove the IRS right then continues.

Much like another who didn't watch Moore's movie really has no idea what it was by reading, oh a blog, you don't know what this one is like by reading a review. I watched it based on Beefy's endorsement, I was surprised by the movie.


I might give is a shot Damo. I think the Patriot Act and the REAL ID act are very important.

I just can't sit through too much of your standard Libertarian anti-tax rant. Been there, done that ;)

Cypress
08-08-2007, 08:40 AM
I know. You would not believe the shit I have had to listen to, about the WTC being packed with bombs, and the fbi coming in and out of there in the weeks before the "bombing". It's crazy stuff, and I feel the same way, show me some proof, or just go away.

For real.

:rolleyes:

Damocles
08-08-2007, 09:02 AM
Guys.. Title 26... I am with you guys as a fellow libertarian telling you to just pay your taxes :( Title 26 of the U.S. Code defines taxable income and says we have to pay taxes. I asked the same question before and found my answer, unfortunatly.
I was never planning to stop paying taxes. This movie covers a bit more than that though.

evince
08-08-2007, 09:06 AM
I know. You would not believe the shit I have had to listen to, about the WTC being packed with bombs, and the fbi coming in and out of there in the weeks before the "bombing". It's crazy stuff, and I feel the same way, show me some proof, or just go away.


And three building just fell conviently into their own footprint.

Damocles
08-08-2007, 09:08 AM
And three building just fell conviently into their own footprint.
Buildings in that area are required to be planned to do so if they fail. Otherwise any building failing would take out several others with it. Don't be such a tool of the uneducated, read an article by an engineer instead of Rosie.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 09:10 AM
And three building just fell conviently into their own footprint.

Desh, if bush planned the 9/11 attacks, why did he have to also pack the WTC with explosives? Why would the planes flying into the buildings not have been enough for him to do what he planned to do, in the aftermath?

Cypress
08-08-2007, 09:14 AM
And three building just fell conviently into their own footprint.

Desh, you can go around the country and find somebody with a science degree, who still claims global warming isnt' real.

Now, if a professional and independent commission of highly qualified civil and structural engineers looks at this, and concludes that only explosives planted in the WTC could cause this, I'll be convinced.

Until then, I'll go to my grave believing Bin Laden did this. Heck, Bin ladin has admitted to doing this.

Dalai_Lama
08-08-2007, 10:37 AM
It was the Chinese that did 9/11...

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 11:27 AM
Desh, if bush planned the 9/11 attacks, why did he have to also pack the WTC with explosives? Why would the planes flying into the buildings not have been enough for him to do what he planned to do, in the aftermath?

they're detail oriented and thorough. incredulous questions are not evidence of this administrations innocence.

Beefy
08-08-2007, 11:41 AM
I might give is a shot Damo. I think the Patriot Act and the REAL ID act are very important.

I just can't sit through too much of your standard Libertarian anti-tax rant. Been there, done that ;)

Why bother? You apparently already know all about it and that it is just a bunch of bullshit anyway. Your eye is already jaundiced.

Damocles
08-08-2007, 11:44 AM
Why bother? You apparently already know all about it and that it is just a bunch of bullshit anyway. Your eye is already jaundiced.
The thing is, so was mine before I watched it. I thought it was going to be bull...

Damocles
08-08-2007, 11:45 AM
One of the most disturbing scenes for me was the soldiers taking the guns from those in New Orleans. These are people sworn to uphold the constitution taking legal weapons from citizens.

Beefy
08-08-2007, 11:45 AM
The thing is, so was mine before I watched it. I thought it was going to be bull...

I thought initially it was a documentary bashing corporations, I watched it anyway, and thought, "wow".

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 11:47 AM
they're detail oriented and thorough. incredulous questions are not evidence of this administrations innocence.

Well, how about somebody show me some evidence of their guilt, in this particular matter. I would like to see one piece of evidence indicating that the bush adminstration loaded the WTC up with explosives and blew it up. So far all I have is the word of one nut, whom, by the way, might be a perfect match for you AHZ.

She believes 9/11 was an inside job.
She believes that her "numerous ex boyfriends and fiances" in the military, all of whom are evil, are the cause of her current unemployment.
She calls herself a "WTC survivor" even though she was in midtown at the time, but you have to really dig to get that second half of the story.
She calls her self a "gulf war vet" even though she was stationed in Germany at the time, and i believe that makes the correct term "gulf war era vet".

I'd love for you take this magic off of my hands, interested? In total honesty? She's got the biggest boobs I have ever seen in my entire life, on anybody. What do you say?

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 11:49 AM
I thought initially it was a documentary bashing corporations, I watched it anyway, and thought, "wow".

I will watch it, and then say something about it.

Not that everyone is on the edge of their seats waiting for my opinion, but I do plan to watch it.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 11:53 AM
One of the most disturbing scenes for me was the soldiers taking the guns from those in New Orleans. These are people sworn to uphold the constitution taking legal weapons from citizens.

Oh, a lot of shit went down in NO, that I have read about on Democracy Now, and seen in Spike Lee's incredible documentary of Katrina.

That is when, in fact, I began to back away from my life long aversion to guns. We could have one of those here, if not a hurricane, another terrorist attack, and the rich will kill you, put a bullet right into your head to protect their property and so will the military if they are told to do so. Plus, they hired black water people, and ex-mossad. If you have to eat during a disaster, with these clowns in charge of fema, you may need to be armed, and will have to use guerilla tactics, because you are not going to take on a black water guy face to face. Well, I'm not anyway.

Seriously.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 11:59 AM
Well, how about somebody show me some evidence of their guilt, in this particular matter. I would like to see one piece of evidence indicating that the bush adminstration loaded the WTC up with explosives and blew it up. So far all I have is the word of one nut, whom, by the way, might be a perfect match for you AHZ.

She believes 9/11 was an inside job.
She believes that her "numerous ex boyfriends and fiances" in the military, all of whom are evil, are the cause of her current unemployment.
She calls herself a "WTC survivor" even though she was in midtown at the time, but you have to really dig to get that second half of the story.
She calls her self a "gulf war vet" even though she was stationed in Germany at the time, and i believe that makes the correct term "gulf war era vet".

I'd love for you take this magic off of my hands, interested? In total honesty? She's got the biggest boobs I have ever seen in my entire life, on anybody. What do you say?

I have to say builiding 7 coming straight down like a controlled demolition is highly questionable.

Nothing anyone showed you would convince you. You believe what you want, and edit the world to fit your preconceived notions. For instance, you espouse racial discrimination against white people, but you are in complete denial, because you edit the world to fit your fanciful notions. Soooo like a woman.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 12:01 PM
I have to say builiding 7 coming straight down like a controlled demolition is highly questionable.

Nothing anyone showed you would convince you. You believe what you want, and edit the world to fit your preconceived notions. For instance, you espouse racial discrimination against white people, but you are in complete denial, because you edit the world to fit your fanciful notions. Soooo like a woman.

And all of your singing and dancing can't cover up the fact that nobody, has show me anything.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 12:06 PM
And all of your singing and dancing can't cover up the fact that nobody, has show me anything.

So are you gonna let your group decide for themselves? Or are you going to be a censorship nazi about it?

Cypress
08-08-2007, 12:06 PM
Well, how about somebody show me some evidence of their guilt, in this particular matter. I would like to see one piece of evidence indicating that the bush adminstration loaded the WTC up with explosives and blew it up. So far all I have is the word of one nut, whom, by the way, might be a perfect match for you AHZ.

She believes 9/11 was an inside job.
She believes that her "numerous ex boyfriends and fiances" in the military, all of whom are evil, are the cause of her current unemployment.
She calls herself a "WTC survivor" even though she was in midtown at the time, but you have to really dig to get that second half of the story.
She calls her self a "gulf war vet" even though she was stationed in Germany at the time, and i believe that makes the correct term "gulf war era vet".

I'd love for you take this magic off of my hands, interested? In total honesty? She's got the biggest boobs I have ever seen in my entire life, on anybody. What do you say?


this gal sounds like a nut. My fondness for boobs, does not extend to any association with nuts ;)

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 12:08 PM
So are you gonna let your group decide for themselves? Or are you going to be a censorship nazi about it?

What part of, they have all seen the movie and come to their own conclusion did you not understand?

I haven't censored anyone.

What I am doing is keeping her from associating NY CP with the 9/11 was an inside job, group, because she is not going to wreck us, which might indeed be her entire purpose, got it?

And that, is what I am stopping her from doing, and yes, she is stopped in her tracks.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 12:09 PM
this gal sounds like a nut. My fondness for boobs, does not extend to any association with nuts ;)

Tell me she does not sound like Asshat's future wife?

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 12:13 PM
What part of, they have all seen the movie and come to their own conclusion did you not understand?

I haven't censored anyone.

What I am doing is keeping her from associating NY CP with the 9/11 was an inside job, group, because she is not going to wreck us, which might indeed be her entire purpose, got it?

And that, is what I am stopping her from doing, and yes, she is stopped in her tracks.

I thought you were debating about whether or not your group should be exposed to the truth or not, my bad.

do you think building 7 coming straight down with little apparent damage is at least curious?

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 12:14 PM
I thought you were debating about whether or not your group should be exposed to the truth or not, my bad.

do you think building 7 coming straight down with little apparent damage is at least curious?

I am not an engineer. I have spoken to engineers who do not believe it was curious, and others who believe it was. Not being an engineer myself, I am not qualified to make a conclusion one way or the other.

Damocles
08-08-2007, 12:15 PM
I thought you were debating about whether or not your group should be exposed to the truth or not, my bad.

do you think building 7 coming straight down with little apparent damage is at least curious?
The damage was apparent. What this denies is the actual code that requires the buildings in that area to be designed to drop within their footprint because failure otherwise would cause damage and death to thousands more because the building would damage nearby structure.

That the building fell as it did was a testimony to the designer, not to some odd conspiracy to destroy that building in particular.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 12:17 PM
The damage was apparent. What this denies is the actual code that requires the buildings in that area to be designed to drop within their footprint because failure otherwise would cause damage and death to thousands more because the building would damage nearby structure.

That the building fell as it did was a testimony to the designer, not to some odd conspiracy to destroy that building in particular.

How about orders to fighter pilots to stand down? also lies and manipulation?

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 12:17 PM
The damage was apparent. What this denies is the actual code that requires the buildings in that area to be designed to drop within their footprint because failure otherwise would cause damage and death to thousands more because the building would damage nearby structure.

That the building fell as it did was a testimony to the designer, not to some odd conspiracy to destroy that building in particular.

That is what my fiance said at the time, and he is an engineer. I have since talked to others who are also engineers, and they do not all agree, but enough seem to, and again, how the hell am I supposed to know?

But, if any one of those buildings had toppled, or God forbid one of the towers, the death toll would be unimaginable, so it makes sense they were designed that way.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 12:24 PM
http://patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html

"Research proves the current administration has been dishonest about what happened in New York and Washington, D.C. The World Trade Center was almost certainly brought down by controlled demolitions and that the available relevant evidence casts grave doubt on the government's official story about the attack on the Pentagon."

Damocles
08-08-2007, 12:28 PM
How about orders to fighter pilots to stand down? also lies and manipulation?
The same military that can't keep stacks of naked muslims quiet can, in this case, keep such an order quiet so that the only place it appears is on the blogspots? Rubbish.

If such an order actually came down, it would be far more widely publicized than on conspiracy-related blogspots. The Press would have orgasms as they wrote about it.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 12:30 PM
The same military that can't keep stacks of naked muslims quiet can, in this case, keep such an order quiet so that the only place it appears is on the blogspots? Rubbish.

If such an order actually came down, it would be far more widely publicized than on conspiracy-related blogspots. The Press would have orgasms as they wrote about it.

problem is, people turn their minds off to uncomfortable thoughts, so even when it comes down, they screen out everything that makes them uncomfortable.

SO all those engineers who find problems are just partisan liars? is that it? Or maybe there's a shred of doubt here.

Damocles
08-08-2007, 12:32 PM
http://patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html

"Research proves the current administration has been dishonest about what happened in New York and Washington, D.C. The World Trade Center was almost certainly brought down by controlled demolitions and that the available relevant evidence casts grave doubt on the government's official story about the attack on the Pentagon."
These people are retarded. Especially about the attack on the Pentagon. Can you imagine the amount of people that would have to be "in on" a Conspiracy of this size?

The Air Traffic Controllers would have to "pretend" that they didn't see a different airplane than what was supposed to take off. The "passengers" would all have to be killed, slaughtered really, and actors or the "passengers" themselves, before being slaughtered by the government-controlled conspiracy, would have to make all those phone calls that were clearly made from the "airplanes". Three airplanes, from different airlines, would have to be destroyed somehow when they had never taken off, yet were clearly seen through airport windows as "passengers" boarded.

We can go on and on and on... But by the time you were done thousands of people would have to be in on the "conspiracy" and it somehow would still be quiet?

I am not that gullible.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 12:34 PM
problem is, people turn their minds off to uncomfortable thoughts, so even when it comes down, they screen out everything that makes them uncomfortable.

SO all those engineers who find problems are just partisan liars? is that it? Or maybe there's a shred of doubt here.

I personally never said there wasn't a shred of doubt.

It doesn't matter. It would never be proved. If there is something there, they will still be arguing about it 100 years from now, and it will change nothing. All it does is make you look crazy, and a peace activist cannot afford to look crazy, whereas, looking crazy is obviously not a concern of yours.

And, the people I know who believe this, this woman being a prime example of it, are all crazy. All of them. Bug fuck nuts. About all kinds of things. So, that too tells me something.

I personally do not believe this adminstration to be competent enough to pull this off, but if I am wrong, and decided I was wrong, and ran around screaming "9/11 was an inside job!" what would I change? Nothing. I would not stop one war, end one war, save one life, change one mind.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 12:34 PM
These people are retarded. Especially about the attack on the Pentagon. Can you imagine the amount of people that would have to be "in on" a Conspiracy of this size?

The Air Traffic Controllers would have to "pretend" that they didn't see a different airplane than what was supposed to take off. The "passengers" would all have to be killed, slaughtered really, and actors or the "passengers" themselves, before being slaughtered by the government-controlled conspiracy, would have to make all those phone calls that were clearly made from the "airplanes". Three airplanes, from different airlines, would have to be destroyed somehow when they had never taken off, yet were clearly seen through airport windows as "passengers" boarded.

We can go on and on and on... But by the time you were done thousands of people would have to be in on the "conspiracy" and it somehow would still be quiet?

I am not that gullible.

It's not quiet, you have your ears clogged with stubborness. IT'S OUT, but you're too much of a goody two shoes.

Cypress
08-08-2007, 12:37 PM
http://patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html

"Research proves the current administration has been dishonest about what happened in New York and Washington, D.C. The World Trade Center was almost certainly brought down by controlled demolitions and that the available relevant evidence casts grave doubt on the government's official story about the attack on the Pentagon."


please stop embarrassing yourself.

"patriotsquestion911.com"???

Surly you jest. Just as with the global warming denialists, anyone can make a website no one's ever heard of, and round up a few people with engineering degrees from around the planet to support your case.

That's not science.


Highly reputable, and credible scientific sources have already published studies on the WTC collapse. With the backing of mainstream american engineering associations and trade groups.


I noticed a lot of the people on your website weren't even civil or structual engineers. I mean, a geologic engineer? Don't make me laugh. This is the game the global warming denialists play.

Damocles
08-08-2007, 12:37 PM
It's not quiet, you have your ears clogged with stubborness. IT'S OUT, but you're too much of a goody two shoes.
No, you gullible paranoid, it isn't "out there". Such a conspiracy wouldn't have the "grassy knoll" type of thing, it is simply too large. There would be people out there talking on MSM regularly, it would be all over, impeachment long ago would have happened.

You have to be super gullible to believe that only blogspots would be on this, including foreign media. You have to ignore way too much that is still "questionable" because there is no smoking gun. There wouldn't have just been one, but many, many, many "smoking guns" by now.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 12:40 PM
No, you gullible paranoid, it isn't "out there". Such a conspiracy wouldn't have the "grassy knoll" type of thing, it is simply too large. There would be people out there talking on MSM regularly, it would be all over, impeachment long ago would have happened.

You have to be super gullible to believe that only blogspots would be on this, including foreign media. You have to ignore way too much that is still "questionable" because there is no smoking gun. There wouldn't have just been one, but many, many, many "smoking guns" by now.


It's not too large. That's just an irrational statement. Many people of science find problems. To consider all of them stupid or partisan for bringing up legitimate questions is too far for me. Take off the rose colored glasses. Truth is beter than lies.

Cypress
08-08-2007, 12:42 PM
On one side we have:

The National Institute of Standards and Technology

supported by
Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE)
Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE)
National Fire Protection Association (NFPA)
American Institute of Steel Construction (AISC)
Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH)
Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY)


*ON THE OTHER SIDE WE HAVE:

anonymous poster Asshat

and "Patriotsquestion911.com"



LOL

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 12:43 PM
On one side we have:

The National Institute of Standards and Technology

supported by
Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE)
Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE)
National Fire Protection Association (NFPA)
American Institute of Steel Construction (AISC)
Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH)
Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY)


*ON THE OTHER SIDE WE HAVE:

anonymous poster Asshat

and "Patriotsquestion911.com"



LOL


the engineers at the link i gave are also legitimate. Your brain is utterly switched off. get on.

Damocles
08-08-2007, 12:45 PM
It's not too large. That's just an irrational statement. Many people of science find problems. To consider all of them stupid or partisan for bringing up legitimate questions is too far for me. Take off the rose colored glasses. Truth is beter than lies.
You are a gullible who will believe anything at all so long as it makes any government entity look "evil". It doesn't mean that there aren't real conspiracies, just that you will fall for even the most incredulous ones that are possible and thus make ones with actual evidence look like "wide-eyed nuts" are the only ones that believe them.

Your Geologic Engineer has no idea how to design a building, or of the zoning laws where high-rise buildings exist. It is stupid to take their word over a large group of actual structural engineers who studied this and point out exactly what I say to be true. The buildings there are ALL designed to collapse into themselves to limit damage to nearby buildings int he case of failure.

Cypress
08-08-2007, 12:47 PM
the engineers at the link i gave are also legitimate. Your brain is utterly switched off. get on.


I can find people with "science degrees" that still deny global warming, moron.

And I can find wierdo sites no ones ever heard of, that deny global warming with said "scientists".


That's neither a valid, nor adequate use of the scientific method or engineering analysis.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 12:47 PM
You are a gullible who will believe anything at all so long as it makes any government entity look "evil". It doesn't mean that there aren't real conspiracies, just that you will fall for even the most incredulous ones that are possible and thus make ones with actual evidence look like "wide-eyed nuts" are the only ones that believe them.

Your Geologic Engineer has no idea how to design a building, or of the zoning laws where high-rise buildings exist. It is stupid to take their word over a large group of actual structural engineers who studied this and point out exactly what I say to be true. The buildings there are ALL designed to collapse into themselves to limit damage to nearby buildings int he case of failure.


That was one dude. There are hundreds with questions. this case isn't closed.

btw, that was an adhominem defense. deal with the issues.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 12:52 PM
In my opinion, it is quite rational to believe that when you put together the PNAC listing as the event needed to initiate their mid-east makeover, being "another pearl harbor", the fact that there is documented evidence that this administration was warned, and unlike the previous administration and as documented by Richard Clarke, did not go into a prevent mode, and in fact did nothing, and many other reasons, all of which indicate that this administration knew there was a high-probablity of a terrrorist attack that summer, and allowed it to happen by doing nothing to prevent it.

And that is enough, that more than enough, that is more terrible than most will ever allow themselves to imagine, but I believe that is what happened, and you cannot even go there, because then you are put into the category of someone who believes that the fbi, on direct orders from bush, was stacking the lobby of the wtc with explosives for 3 weeks before 9/11.

Cypress
08-08-2007, 12:53 PM
okay, I went through this weirdo site.

The first four people listed aren't even civil or structural engineers.

They're architects. Architects may have broad familiarity with building materials and metalurgy. But they're not EXPERTS.

A lot the the "engineers" listed, are in fields other than civil and structual. I mean c'mon: they've got geologic engineers and hydrologists. I have no idea what expertise in mining, and irrigation systems has to do with the issue at hand.

In short, this is the same tactic global warming denialists use: Make some wierdo website, and round up a bunch of people who have some science or technical degrees, to impart a veneer of credibility

Cypress
08-08-2007, 12:55 PM
In my opinion, it is quite rational to believe that when you put together the PNAC listing as the event needed to initiate their mid-east makeover, being "another pearl harbor", the fact that there is documented evidence that this administration was warned, and unlike the previous administration and as documented by Richard Clarke, did not go into a prevent mode, and in fact did nothing, and many other reasons, all of which indicate that this administration knew there was a high-probablity of a terrrorist attack that summer, and allowed it to happen by doing nothing to prevent it.

And that is enough, that more than enough, that is more terrible than most will ever allow themselves to imagine, but I believe that is what happened, and you cannot even go there, because then you are put into the category of someone who believes that the fbi, on direct orders from bush, was stacking the lobby of the wtc with explosives for 3 weeks before 9/11.


concur.

Reality is bad enough, without going out and speculating about loony stuff.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 12:57 PM
concur.

Reality is bad enough, without going out and speculating about loony stuff.


Both of you are shielding yourselves from reality because you're too intellectually and emotionally fragile. Or it could be for another reason, but there's no doubt you're doing it.

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 01:03 PM
Both of you are shielding yourselves from reality because you're too intellectually and emotionally fragile. Or it could be for another reason, but there's no doubt you're doing it.

What has knowing the truth done for you? What have you done on account of knowing this truth? I have never even see you say either of the two wars we are in are wrong, yet if what you believe is true, than both are nothing more than murder on a mass scale. What have you done about that?

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 01:03 PM
reality may seem bad enough, but it's actually worse. If you can recognize that, you can make it better by focusing attention where it's needed, instead of on the fake issues they want us to care about.

Cypress
08-08-2007, 01:06 PM
reality may seem bad enough, but it's actually worse. If you can recognize that, you can make it better by focusing attention where it's needed, instead of on the fake issues they want us to care about.


Let me know when you have something better than "Patriotsquestion911.com"

Anybody can round up some people with science and engineering degress to give them an opinion on something.

Proper engineering or scientific analysis requires an iterative process looking at the actual data, and putting your findings and analysis through the peer review of leading experts in the relevant field.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 01:09 PM
Let me know when you have something better than "Patriotsquestion911.com"

Anybody can round up some people with science and engineering degress to give them an opinion on something.

Proper engineering or scientific analysis requires an iterative process looking at the actual data, and putting your findings and analysis through the peer review of leading experts in the relevant field.

There are hundeds of sites, toad.

you're a fascist and you will pull together with your fellow fascist republcans when it comes to maintaining the fascist sytem. Yeah. that was three times.

I thought I was on ignore? I guess that makes you a liar, or an addict.

Cypress
08-08-2007, 01:11 PM
There are hundeds of sites, toad.

you're a fascist and you will pull together with your fellow fascist republcans when it comes to maintaining the fascist sytem. Yeah. that was three times.

There are hundeds of sites, toad

Don't give me the opinions of some people who have technical degrees that may or may not be relevant to the issue.

Give me a peer reviewed study by professional engineers of all the actual data, that's published and sanctioned in a mainstream professional engineering or science journal.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 01:14 PM
There are hundeds of sites, toad

Don't give me the opinions of some people who have technical degrees that may or may not be relevant to the issue.

Give me a peer reviewed study by professional engineers of all the actual data, that's published and sanctioned in a mainstream professional engineering or science journal.

So what were the "legitimate" scientists giving?

Cancel7
08-08-2007, 01:14 PM
There are hundeds of sites, toad.

you're a fascist and you will pull together with your fellow fascist republcans when it comes to maintaining the fascist sytem. Yeah. that was three times.

I thought I was on ignore? I guess that makes you a liar, or an addict.

I guess I have to ask you this again:

What has knowing the truth done for you? What have you done on account of knowing this truth? I have never even see you say either of the two wars we are in are wrong, yet if what you believe is true, than both are nothing more than murder on a mass scale. What have you done about that?

Cypress
08-08-2007, 01:19 PM
So what were the "legitimate" scientists giving?

Opinions mean less than actual peer reviewed analysis.

You can still find people with science degrees who deny global warming. However, all the climate scientists who do the actual peer reviewed research and analysis conclude humans are changing the climate.


You can't give me a mainstream, peer reviewed engineering study that supports your speculation.


Let me guess: It's because the Jews run all the nations professional engineering and science journals.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 01:29 PM
I guess I have to ask you this again:

What has knowing the truth done for you? What have you done on account of knowing this truth? I have never even see you say either of the two wars we are in are wrong, yet if what you believe is true, than both are nothing more than murder on a mass scale. What have you done about that?

Oh simple simple darla. It's more complex than that. The NWO is real, wars are created, populations are manipulated. Yes, The mideast has been manipulated into a state of frenzy according to their design, but the thing is THEY REALLY DO WANT TO KILL AMERICANS. this attitude has been reinforced by empowering dictators in the short term with oil money and allowing them to radicalize their societes.

the truth is, the illuminati is not opposed to islamic theocracy, but it must be in it's place in the chain, under the internationalist fascists. I think they DO want an islamic theocracy throughout europe and america, and the jihadi army is existant and is being imported each and every day. the war on terror is only to dominate the mideast and protect israel, not to actually protect americans.

Iraq now: Regardless of the reasons for going, it would be disastrous to pull out now, and they are counting on this reality to keep them there. Millions would die.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 01:37 PM
So it's like this: Americans fund the war machine, the elites and their arms manufacturer friends profit, they acquire new territory (which americans cannot emigrate to freely, though in the old days, that was the point of war.) and more power, meanwhile, muslims are asserting more and more "rights", "rights" to them meaning special priveliges and the right to suppress speech critical of islam, including cartoons of mohammed.

uscitizen
08-08-2007, 01:40 PM
reality may seem bad enough, but it's actually worse. If you can recognize that, you can make it better by focusing attention where it's needed, instead of on the fake issues they want us to care about.

right by using our consumer power and not buying stuff from countries that have as you say it "slave labor". ie China.
Or are you afraid to walk your talk ?

AnglScarlett
08-08-2007, 01:41 PM
So it's like this: Americans fund the war machine, the elites and their arms manufacturer friends profit, they acquire new territory (which americans cannot emigrate to freely, though in the old days, that was the point of war.) and more power, meanwhile, muslims are asserting more and more "rights", "rights" to them meaning special priveliges and the right to suppress speech critical of islam, including cartoons of mohammed.

Butt, the question is, why are you still here, trying to brainwash the already too left Darla, who is nearly a commie already, and has been marching around here in her combat boots, with Das Kapital under her arm, as if she thought she was on the Ho Chi Min trail? Butt, she is still not lefty enough for you? Now, as my Man Friday and personal servant, I have told you twice, Donny needs diapering? He has had the sheet kicked out of him by the lefty Darla, who went bonkers on him, and then, I had to cyber-skewer him as well, because he would not leave well enough alone, and came looking to redeem himself by taking yours truly on? Snap to it, I do not want to have to give you an order a third time?

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 01:49 PM
Butt, the question is, why are you still here, trying to brainwash the already too left Darla, who is nearly a commie already, and has been marching around here in her combat boots, with Das Kapital under her arm, as if she thought she was on the Ho Chi Min trail? Butt, she is still not lefty enough for you? Now, as my Man Friday and personal servant, I have told you twice, Donny needs diapering? He has had the sheet kicked out of him by the lefty Darla, who went bonkers on him, and then, I had to cyber-skewer him as well, because he would not leave well enough alone, and came looking to redeem himself by taking yours truly on? Snap to it, I do not want to have to give you an order a third time?

I don't believe in the concept of authority (except for damo). So your orders are merely an interesting phenomenon in my world, well, not even that interesting.

uscitizen
08-08-2007, 01:54 PM
I don't believe in the concept of authority (except for damo). So your orders are merely an interesting phenomenon in my world, well, not even that interesting.

That is strange seeing that you are always crying for the government to fix the NWO problems....
Umm AHZ the Govt is authority....
And you are asking for their help....

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 01:59 PM
That is strange seeing that you are always crying for the government to fix the NWO problems....
Umm AHZ the Govt is authority....
And you are asking for their help....

The Authority Song - John Cougar (expletive deleted)

They like to get you in a compromising position
They like to get you there and smille in your face
They think, theyre so cute when they got you in that condition
Well I think, its a total disgrace

Chorus:
I fight authority, authority always wins
I fight authority, authority always wins
I been doing it, since I was a young kid
Ive come out grinnin
I fight authority, authority always wins

So I call up my preacher
I say: gimme strenght for round 5
He said: you dont need no strength, you need to grow up, son
I said: growing up leads to growing old and then to dying,
And dying to me dont sound like all that much fun

Chorus:
I fight authority, authority always wins
I fight authority, authority always wins
I been doing it, since I was a young kid
Ive come out grinnin
I fight authority, authority always wins

I fight authority, authority always wins
I fight authority, authority always wins
I been doing it, since I was a young kid
Ive come out grinnin
I fight authority, authority always wins
Oh no
Oh no
I fight authority, authority always wins

Chorus:
I fight authority, authority always wins
I fight authority, authority always wins
I been doing it, since I was a young kid
Ive come out grinnin
I fight authority, authority always wins
I fight authority, authority always wins
I fight authority, authority always wins
I been doing it, since I was a young kid
Ive come out grinnin
I fight authority, authority always wins

Damocles
08-08-2007, 02:28 PM
That was one dude. There are hundreds with questions. this case isn't closed.

btw, that was an adhominem defense. deal with the issues.
I did, I described why I would believe a group of structural engineers over your group of decidedly not quite as qualified professionals.

Seriously, man, they don't even recognize zoning laws in their "questions" and deny direct answers by previous groups of professionals. You have to be extremely gullible to believe such a conspiracy could survive this long and only be in the blogs. It takes total disregard of the fact that the sheer number of those who would have known about it would ensure positive evidence of a "smoking gun" type long ago.

Annie
08-08-2007, 02:30 PM
I did, I described why I would believe a group of structural engineers over your group of decidedly not quite as qualified professionals.

Seriously, man, they don't even recognize zoning laws in their "questions" and deny direct answers by previous groups of professionals. You have to be extremely gullible to believe such a conspiracy could survive this long and only be in the blogs. It takes total disregard of the fact that the sheer number of those who would have known about it would ensure positive evidence of a "smoking gun" type long ago.

I was tempted to post from Popular Mechanics or Perdue University results, but why bother with tinfoil brigade?

Damocles
08-08-2007, 02:32 PM
I was tempted to post from Popular Mechanics or Perdue University results, but why bother with tinfoil brigade?
Pretty much my sentiment. It takes deliberate ignorance to believe these particular theories, and such insistence often takes away from actual persistent dangers that they also may believe in. It makes them appear to be all made up of "crazies" as those who listen and check in to it, see the evidence, then dismiss any other thing they may bring up as a matter of course.

AnglScarlett
08-08-2007, 02:41 PM
I don't believe in the concept of authority (except for damo). So your orders are merely an interesting phenomenon in my world, well, not even that interesting.

If you believe Damo has authority over you, then you believe in the concept of authority, period, you seem to be getting stupiter by the post, are you on medication? I hate to keep the cyber-skewering up, butt, it as if you leave me no choice, and even try to make it easy for me, with these, amatuer answers? Soon you are going to fall behind usc, on the posting totem poll, and be grouped in with the Diaper Don, Donny, and the lefty fool Superfreak? You need to pick up the pace, if you want to avoid this fate, and who would not want to, sorry? I advise spending less time trying to brainwash the lefty firecracker Darla, who knows, she might go bonkers on you, she is unstable, just ask the Diaper Don? and moore time on practicing your posting skills, capice?

doniston
08-08-2007, 03:16 PM
If you believe Damo has authority over you, then you believe in the concept of authority, period, you seem to be getting stupiter by the post, are you on medication? I hate to keep the cyber-skewering up, butt, it as if you leave me no choice, and even try to make it easy for me, with these, amatuer answers? Soon you are going to fall behind usc, on the posting totem poll, and be grouped in with the Diaper Don, Donny, and the lefty fool Superfreak? You need to pick up the pace, if you want to avoid this fate, and who would not want to, sorry? I advise spending less time trying to brainwash the lefty firecracker Darla, who knows, she might go bonkers on you, she is unstable, just ask the Diaper Don? and moore time on practicing your posting skills, capice? while, more often than not, I totally disagree with ASSHAT, his posting skills are far superior to yours, and considering content. the only one I can think of that is worse than you is Battleborne. You don't even talk a good game.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 04:17 PM
If you believe Damo has authority over you, then you believe in the concept of authority, period, you seem to be getting stupiter by the post, are you on medication? I hate to keep the cyber-skewering up, butt, it as if you leave me no choice, and even try to make it easy for me, with these, amatuer answers? Soon you are going to fall behind usc, on the posting totem poll, and be grouped in with the Diaper Don, Donny, and the lefty fool Superfreak? You need to pick up the pace, if you want to avoid this fate, and who would not want to, sorry? I advise spending less time trying to brainwash the lefty firecracker Darla, who knows, she might go bonkers on you, she is unstable, just ask the Diaper Don? and moore time on practicing your posting skills, capice?


No. :pke:

doniston
08-08-2007, 06:58 PM
I don't believe in the concept of authority (except for damo). So your orders are merely an interesting phenomenon in my world, well, not even that interesting. The person (Note: I did not say MAN) is in an imaginary world of his own.

Hermes Thoth
08-08-2007, 07:01 PM
The person (Note: I did not say MAN) is in an imaginary world of his own.

No shit. And in no way, doniston, do I support his baseless and continual abjurations of you. He's a dumbass with no substance.

doniston
08-08-2007, 07:02 PM
I did, I described why I would believe a group of structural engineers over your group of decidedly not quite as qualified professionals.

Seriously, man, they don't even recognize zoning laws in their "questions" and deny direct answers by previous groups of professionals. You have to be extremely gullible to believe such a conspiracy could survive this long and only be in the blogs. It takes total disregard of the fact that the sheer number of those who would have known about it would ensure positive evidence of a "smoking gun" type long ago.

That would only be true in the cases you examined. there are many other less complicated scenerios which are possible.

tinfoil
08-08-2007, 07:38 PM
Funny, I posted this video a year ago on FP and everyone called me crazy.

Beefy
08-08-2007, 07:42 PM
Funny, I posted this video a year ago on FP and everyone called me crazy.

Not me. But Cypress, who hasn't even seen it, has debunked the whole thing.

tinfoil
08-08-2007, 07:48 PM
Who does Cypress think owns the federal reserve bank? It ain't the federal government.

Beefy
08-08-2007, 07:53 PM
Who does Cypress think owns the federal reserve bank? It ain't the federal government.

Whoever it is, he trusts them completely.

Cypress
08-08-2007, 09:16 PM
I watched about ten or fifteen minutes of the film, and checked and cross referenced most of the claims made in the first ten minutes. Nearly all of them are false or misleading:



The film posts this quote, from a US District Judge:

“If you…examined (the 16th amendment) carefully, you would find that a sufficient number of states never ratified that amendment” -- US District Court Judge James C. Fox 2003

Misleading and out of context

Judge Fox of North Carolina spoke on the basis of a dim recollection of the sorts of arguments we shall deal with below. This is not a court opinion, simply something he uttered during a hearing.

Fox offered this observation while deliberating a rather crankish lawsuit filed in 2003 by two members of the North Carolina National Guard, who felt that the War Powers act was unconstitutional. Fox argued that the Constitution had, in essence, evolved. He then cited the 16th amendment as an example of this sort of evolution. Here’s the full quote, emphasis added:


"If you were to go back and try to find and review the ratification of the 16th Amendment, which was the internal revenue, income tax, I think if you went back and examined that carefully, you would find that a sufficient number of states never ratified that amendment. And nonetheless, I think it is fair to say that it is part of the constitution of the United States, and I don't think any court would ever set it aside. Well, I've seen that. I've seen somewhere a treatise on that, and I think it was --- I think I'm correct in saying that actually the ratification never really properly occurred. Yet nonetheless, I'm sure no court's going to say that the 16th Amendment permitting income tax is void for any reason. I think there may be something analogous there vis a vis the continued practice of the Executive to have incursions and police actions or to commit the country to hostilities without the formal declaration of war."

Fox cannot cite the source of his impression. He hasn’t studied the matter because it was not germane to the case under discussion. He mentioned the amendment only in passing.

In sum: Russo implies that Fox claimed the Amendment to be unconstitutional; in fact, Fox made exactly the opposite point. Russo implies that Fox ruled on a case involving the 16th Amendment; in fact, the case was about a completely different matter. Russo implies that Fox had studied the facts; Fox could not recall where he got his “facts.”

http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2006/12/america-from-freedom-to-fascism.html

-Further,

Some tax protesters, conspiracy investigators, and others opposed to income taxes cite what they contend is evidence that the Sixteenth Amendment was never "properly ratified." One such argument is that because the legislatures of various states passed resolutions of ratification with different capitalization, spelling of words, or punctuation marks (e.g., semi-colons instead of commas) from the text proposed by Congress, those states' ratifications were invalid. A related argument is that various states illegally violated procedural requirements of their constitutions when passing their ratification resolutions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitut ion#Tax_protester_arguments_regarding_ratification

Please.

It was an "invalid" ratification, because of some punctuation variances between the states??? Laughable.


Four minutes into the film, Aaron Russo reads a quote widely attributed to Woodrow Wilson:

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is now controlled by its system of credit. We are no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

False.


This is a well-known conflation of several quotes, only two of which can actually be attributed to Woodrow Wilson. Russo probably got the conflated statement off some anti-tax site on the internet. The source of the first two sentences is unknown, and nowhere on record can be found to be said by Wilson. The third sentence (although slightly altered in this version) is found in the eighth chapter of Wilson's book, The New Freedom,[11] and originally reads

A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men who, even if their action be honest and intended for the public interest, are necessarily concentrated upon the great undertakings in which their own money is involved and who necessarily, by very reason of their own limitations, chill and check and destroy genuine economic freedom.

The final sentence (beginning with "We are no longer..."), although again slightly altered from its original version, can also be found in The New Freedom (ninth chapter), and in its original context, reads

We have restricted credit, we have restricted opportunity, we have controlled development, and we have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world--no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America:_From_Freedom_to_Fascism#_note-11



Then there‘s this statement in the film.

“In 1913 America was a “Free Country”. Then a powerful group of Bankers took over. “

Ridiculous and retarded.

Does anyone think America was free - let alone “more” free - in 1913, than it is NOW??? Women couldn’t VOTE in 1913. Blacks couldn’t vote. There was Jim Crow and Poll taxes. Workers were abused by an unregulated capitalist system that ground them down.



This this is said in the film:

“The american people were forced to lower their standard of living, and pay a graduated income tax to the government”

Absolute poppycock

There’s no sane person here who will claim our standard of living has declined since 1913.



Thirteen minutes in, the film displays a quote:

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans." Bill Clinton, March 11, 1993

Intentionally misleading and truncated

What Clinton actually said (on March 1 1993 [13]) was:

We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans to legitimately own handguns and rifles—it's something I strongly support—we can't be so fixated on that that we are unable to think about the reality of life that millions of Americans face on streets that are unsafe, under conditions that no other nation—no other nations—has permitted to exist.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=46264



Mr. Russo also said that “Congress has no authority to tax people’s labor.”

Baloney

Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution begins with the phrase “The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes.

Only three limitations are placed on that power, none of which bars a tax on wages. One limitation, however, was a requirement that taxes be “apportioned among the several states.”

US Constitution, Article I, Section 8

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8



These false statements were all in the first ten or fifteen minutes. I fast forward to about half way through the film, and he was still blabbing about taxes and the IRS.

This is standard tax conspiracist tripe. Stuff that has been debunked over and over, but is grasped onto by a handful of anti-tax cranks.

This could have been a worthwhile film, if he’d focused on Patriot Act, Enemy combatant statutes, REAL ID act, and warrantless wiretapping, instead of this anti-tax crackpot stuff.


Finally, let’s recall this is the guy who claims to have shown his film at the Cannes Film Festival. A cursory review, shows that it was never shown at the Cannes Festival. He rented a blowup screen, and showed it on the beach at Cannes.

Sorry, beefy. Don’t take offense. This is just my critique of the film. I actually tried to watch it.

uscitizen
08-08-2007, 09:32 PM
sounds like a good job there Cypress.
thanks.

Beefy
08-08-2007, 09:37 PM
I watched about ten or fifteen minutes of the film, and checked and cross referenced most of the claims made in the first ten minutes. Nearly all of them are false or misleading:




Misleading and out of context

Judge Fox of North Carolina spoke on the basis of a dim recollection of the sorts of arguments we shall deal with below. This is not a court opinion, simply something he uttered during a hearing.

Fox offered this observation while deliberating a rather crankish lawsuit filed in 2003 by two members of the North Carolina National Guard, who felt that the War Powers act was unconstitutional. Fox argued that the Constitution had, in essence, evolved. He then cited the 16th amendment as an example of this sort of evolution. Here’s the full quote, emphasis added:



Fox cannot cite the source of his impression. He hasn’t studied the matter because it was not germane to the case under discussion. He mentioned the amendment only in passing.

In sum: Russo implies that Fox claimed the Amendment to be unconstitutional; in fact, Fox made exactly the opposite point. Russo implies that Fox ruled on a case involving the 16th Amendment; in fact, the case was about a completely different matter. Russo implies that Fox had studied the facts; Fox could not recall where he got his “facts.”

http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2006/12/america-from-freedom-to-fascism.html

-Further,

Some tax protesters, conspiracy investigators, and others opposed to income taxes cite what they contend is evidence that the Sixteenth Amendment was never "properly ratified." One such argument is that because the legislatures of various states passed resolutions of ratification with different capitalization, spelling of words, or punctuation marks (e.g., semi-colons instead of commas) from the text proposed by Congress, those states' ratifications were invalid. A related argument is that various states illegally violated procedural requirements of their constitutions when passing their ratification resolutions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitut ion#Tax_protester_arguments_regarding_ratification

Please.

It was an "invalid" ratification, because of some punctuation variances between the states??? Laughable.



False.


This is a well-known conflation of several quotes, only two of which can actually be attributed to Woodrow Wilson. Russo probably got the conflated statement off some anti-tax site on the internet. The source of the first two sentences is unknown, and nowhere on record can be found to be said by Wilson. The third sentence (although slightly altered in this version) is found in the eighth chapter of Wilson's book, The New Freedom,[11] and originally reads

A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men who, even if their action be honest and intended for the public interest, are necessarily concentrated upon the great undertakings in which their own money is involved and who necessarily, by very reason of their own limitations, chill and check and destroy genuine economic freedom.

The final sentence (beginning with "We are no longer..."), although again slightly altered from its original version, can also be found in The New Freedom (ninth chapter), and in its original context, reads

We have restricted credit, we have restricted opportunity, we have controlled development, and we have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world--no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America:_From_Freedom_to_Fascism#_note-11




Ridiculous and retarded.

Does anyone think America was free - let alone “more” free - in 1913, than it is NOW??? Women couldn’t VOTE in 1913. Blacks couldn’t vote. There was Jim Crow and Poll taxes. Workers were abused by an unregulated capitalist system that ground them down.




Absolute poppycock

There’s no sane person here who will claim our standard of living has declined since 1913.




Intentionally misleading and truncated

What Clinton actually said (on March 1 1993 [13]) was:

We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans to legitimately own handguns and rifles—it's something I strongly support—we can't be so fixated on that that we are unable to think about the reality of life that millions of Americans face on streets that are unsafe, under conditions that no other nation—no other nations—has permitted to exist.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=46264




Baloney

Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution begins with the phrase “The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes.

Only three limitations are placed on that power, none of which bars a tax on wages. One limitation, however, was a requirement that taxes be “apportioned among the several states.”

US Constitution, Article I, Section 8

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8



These false statements were all in the first ten or fifteen minutes. I fast forward to about half way through the film, and he was still blabbing about taxes and the IRS.

This is standard tax conspiracist tripe. Stuff that has been debunked over and over, but is grasped onto by a handful of anti-tax cranks.

This could have been a worthwhile film, if he’d focused on Patriot Act, Enemy combatant statutes, REAL ID act, and warrantless wiretapping, instead of this anti-tax crackpot stuff.


Finally, let’s recall this is the guy who claims to have shown his film at the Cannes Film Festival. A cursory review, shows that it was never shown at the Cannes Festival. He rented a blowup screen, and showed it on the beach at Cannes.

Sorry, beefy. Don’t take offense. This is just my critique of the film. I actually tried to watch it.

None taken. In fact I appreciate it. I'll have to take a deeper look at it.

But I didn't really care about the tax thing so much as the Federal reserve aspect of it. I'd really like to hear what you say about that. And the rest of the film.

Damocles
08-09-2007, 07:02 AM
None taken. In fact I appreciate it. I'll have to take a deeper look at it.

But I didn't really care about the tax thing so much as the Federal reserve aspect of it. I'd really like to hear what you say about that. And the rest of the film.
Ditto. There is far more to the film than nutty taxes. Keep your head on and watch the flick. None of us are planning on suddenly not filing taxes, so that must not be the parts of the flick that we thought were so fascinating.

Had I only watched 10 minutes of Farenheit 9/11 would I be able to judge the entire movie?

Cancel7
08-09-2007, 07:02 AM
Ditto. There is far more to the film than nutty taxes. Keep your head on and watch the flick. None of us are planning on suddenly not filing taxes, so that must not be the parts of the flick that we thought were so fascinating.

I do have it on dvd, I'm going to watch it sometime over the weekend, if I have enough time.

uscitizen
08-09-2007, 07:27 AM
I never watched Farenheight, was it good ?
I think I saw supersize me though :)

Cancel7
08-09-2007, 07:32 AM
I never watched Farenheight, was it good ?
I think I saw supersize me though :)

Oh yeah, I can't believe you haven't seen it. I have the dvd. Of that one, and Bowling for Columbine. I'll get Sicko too when it comes out.

That's right, I love Michael Moore, and, I don't care how fat he gets. (though, unlike Al Gore, I do not want to see him nekid)

Hermes Thoth
08-09-2007, 07:54 AM
No cypress, you're a weakminded fool who needs so bad to believe in your "republicans bad, democrats good" paradigm that you will side with the fascist underpinning of our society everytime. The truth is you're too stupid to even understand issues involved. People of all races are enslaved by this privately owned fiat currency system.

Hermes Thoth
08-09-2007, 08:05 AM
Selling the fiat currency concept to evil men:

1. give them all buckets of monopoly money.
2. Tell them that if they go kill and conquer the land and institute a fiat currency system, they will become rich magically, by assigning value to worthlessness through force of will.

It's really this simple.

Hermes Thoth
08-09-2007, 08:16 AM
http://www.freedomdomain.com/nwoquote.htm
New World Order Quotes
"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not
behind the scenes." --Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England, in 1844.

"The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) is the American Branch of a society which originated in England ... (and) ... believes national boundaries should be obliterated and one-world rule
established."-- Professor of History Carroll Quigley, Georgetown University, in his book "Tragedy and Hope".

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." - Woodrow Wilson

"[The New World Order] cannot happen without U.S. participation, as we are the most
significant single component. Yes, there will be a New World Order, and it will force the United
States to change it's perceptions." -- Henry Kissenger, World Affairs Council Press Conference,
Regent Beverly Wilshire Hotel , April 19th 1994

"David Rockefeller is the most conspicuous representative today of the ruling class, a multinational fraternity of men who shape the global economy and manage the flow of its capital. Rockefeller was born to it, and he has made the most of it. But what some critics see as a vast international conspiracy, he considers a circumstance of life and justanother day's work... In the world of David Rockefeller it's hard to tell where business ends and politics begins" . Bill Moyers

"We know in the not too distant future, a half dozen corporations are going to control the media.
We took this step (merger) to ensure we were one of them"--Time Warner spokesperson.

"We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether
World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent." -- Statement made before the
United States Senate on Feb. 7, 1950 by James Paul Warburg ("Angel" to and active in the
United World Federalists), son of Paul Moritz Warburg, nephew of Felix Warburg and of Jacob
Schiff, both of Kuhn, Loeb & Co. which poured millions into the Russian Revolution through
James' brother Max, banker to the German government - See the Siss?on Report

"All of us will ultimately be judged on the effort we have contributed to building a NEW WORLD ORDER."--Robert Kennedy, former U.S. Attorney-General, 1967.

"The real rulers in Washington are invisible and exercise their power from behind the
scenes."-- Justice Felix Frankfurter, U.S. Supreme Court.

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insideous forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

"For some time I have been disturbed by the way the CIA has been diverted from it's original
assignment. It has become an operational and at times a policy making arm of the government." --
President Harry Truman

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson."-- U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt in a letter written Nov. 21, 1933 to Colonel E. Mandell House.

"The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls
its slimy legs over our cities, states and nation."-- Mayor (1918-1925) John F. Hylan of New York.

"Fundamental Bible-believing people do not have the right to indoctrinate their children in their
religious beliefs because we, the state, are preparing them for the year 2000, when America will be
part of a one-world global society and their children will not fit in." --Nebraska State Senator Peter Hoagland, speaking on radio in 1983.

"When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical
Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of freedom to Americans..." "And so alot of people say there's
too much personal freedom. When personal freedom's being abused, you have to move to limit it.
That's what we did in the announcement I made last weekend on the Housing Projects, about how
we're going to have weapon sweeps and more things like that to try to make the people feel safer
in their communities"--President Bill Clinton 3-22-94, MTV's "Enough is Enough"

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.."--
Bill Clinton USA Today--3-11-93, page 2a

"Gun registration is not enough"--Attorney Generral Janet Reno--12-10-93--Associated Press

"Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms
is the goal"--Janet Reno

"If a nation values anything more than freedom, then it will lose it's freedom; and the irony of it is
that if it is comfort and security that it values, it will lose that too.Unknown Americans must decide :
Are we to be governed by Americans or by an International organization ? I, for one, owe no
alliegence to the United Nations nor will I give it any. I obey only the U.S. Constitution. You had
better think about this issue, for if the U.N. can violate the Sovereignty of Haiti, Iraq and other
countries, it can violate ours...The United States may not be the top dog 15 years from now. U.N.
security council resolutions, backed by say chinese soldiers, could be aimed at us."-Charley
Reese-Orlando Sentinel

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time magazine and other great
publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected the promises of discretion
for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if
we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more
sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world-government. The supranational sovereignty
of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the National autodetermination
practiced in past centuries"--David Rockefeller in an address to a Trilateral Commission meeting
in June of 1991

"From the days of Sparticus, Weishaupt, Karl Marx, Trotski, belacoon, Rosa Luxenberg and
Ema Goldman, this world conspiracy has been steadily growing. This conspiracy played a definite
recognizable role in the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement
during the 19th century. And now at last, this band of extraordinary personalities from the under-
world of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their
head and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."--Winston Churchill to
the London press in 1922.

"The Trilateral Commission is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the
commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States.
The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate
the four centers of power--Political, Monetary, Intellectual, and Ecclesiastical."--U.S. Senator
Barry Goldwater from his 1964 book "No Apologies"

"I believe that if the people of this nation fully understood what Congress has done to them over the last 49 years, they would move on Washington; they would not wait for an election....It adds up
to a preconceived plan to destroy the economic and social independence of the United States!"
--George W. Malone, U.S. Senator (Nevada), speaking before Congress in1957.

"The invisible Money Power is working to control and enslave mankind. It financed
Communism, Fascism, Marxism, Zionism, Socialism. All of these are directed to making the United
States a member of a World Government ..." -- AMERICAN MERCURY MAGAZINE, December 1957, pg. 92.

"The Air Force is suffering from pilots who have lost faith in their generals, jet engines that still
don't work after repairs and maintenance depots with 'little quality or quantity of work being
produced', according to an internal Defense Department memorandum. The draft memo paints a
troubling picture of the state of American air power. 'The sad state of air-force readiness can be
blamed on the Clinton Administration, which treats the military as a toy to be deployed for
meals-on-wheels-type missionswithout due consideration for it's impact on readiness", said Robert
Maginnis, a retired Army Lieutenent colonel and an analyst at the conservative Family Research
Council

"The International government of the United Nations, stripped of it's legal trimming, then, is
really the International Government of the United States and the Soviet Union acting in Unison."
From the American Jewish Committee's official magazine "Commentary" of Nov. 1958, Pg. 376

"War to the hilt between communism and capitalism is inevidable. Today of course, we are not
strong enough to attack. Our time will come in 20 or 30 years...The Bourgeoisie will have to be
put to sleep. So we shall begin by launching the most spectacular peace movement on record.
There will be electrifying overtures and unheard of concessions. The capitalist countries, stupid
and decadent, will rejoice to cooperate in their own destruction. They will leap at another chance
to be friends. As soon as their guard is down, we shall smash them with our clentched fist."
Dimitry Z. Manuilsky in a speech made in 1931 before the Lenin School of Political Warfare.
(He became an officer of the U.N. Security Council in 1949)

"We must realize that we cannot co-exist eternally. One of us must go to his grave. We do not
want to go to the grave. They do not want to go to the grave, either. So what can be done? We
must push them to their grave." -- Sewren Bailer, a polish communist leader, who defected to the
west, charged that in April, 1955 Khrushchev said this to a group of Warsaw Communists.

"We operate here under directives which emulate (sic) from the White House ... The substance of
the directives under which we operate is that we shall use our grant making power to alter life in the
United States so that we can comfortably be merged with the Soviet Union." -- Rowan Gaither, President of the Ford Foundation, 1954.

"The old world order changed when this war-storm broke. The old international order passed away as
suddenly, as unexpectedly, and as completely as if it had been wiped out by a gigantic flood, by a great
tempest, or by a volcanic eruption. The old world order died with the setting of that day's sun and a new
world order is being born while I speak, with birth-pangs so terrible that it seems almost incredible that life
could come out of such fearful suffering and such overwhelming sorrow." -- Nicholas Murray Butler, in
an address delivered before the Union League of Philadelphia, Nov. 27, 1915

"The peace conference has assembled. It will make the most momentous decisions in history, and upon
these decisions will rest the stability of the new world order and the future peace of the world." -- M. C.
Alexander, Executive Secretary of the American Association for International Conciliation, in a
subscription letter for the periodical International Conciliation (1919)

"If there are those who think we are to jump immediately into a new world order, actuated by complete
understanding and brotherly love, they are doomed to disappointment. If we are ever to approach that
time, it will be after patient and persistent effort of long duration. The present international situation of
mistrust and fear can only be corrected by a formula of equal status, continuously applied, to every phase
of international contacts, until the cobwebs of the old order are brushed out of the minds of the people of
all lands." -- Dr. Augustus O. Thomas, president of the World Federation of Education Associations
(August 1927), quoted in the book "International Understanding: Agencies Educating for a New World"
(1931)

"... when the struggle seems to be drifting definitely towards a world social democracy, there may still be
very great delays and disappointments before it becomes an efficient and beneficent world system.
Countless people ... will hate the new world order ... and will die protesting against it. When we attempt
to evaluate its promise, we have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of malcontents, many of
them quite gallant and graceful-looking people." -- H. G. Wells, in his book entitled "The New World
Order" (1939)

Hermes Thoth
08-09-2007, 08:16 AM
"The term Internationalism has been popularized in recent years to cover an interlocking financial,
political, and economic world force for the purpose of establishing a World Government. Today
Internationalism is heralded from pulpit and platform as a 'League of Nations' or a 'Federated Union' to
which the United States must surrender a definite part of its National Sovereignty. The World
Government plan is being advocated under such alluring names as the 'New International Order,' 'The
New World Order,' 'World Union Now,' 'World Commonwealth of Nations,' 'World Community,' etc. All
the terms have the same objective; however, the line of approach may be religious or political according
to the taste or training of the individual." -- excerpt from A Memorial to be Addressed to the House of
Bishops and the House of Clerical and Lay Deputies of the Protestant Episcopal Church in General
Convention (October 1940)

"In the first public declaration on the Jewish question since the outbreak of the war, Arthur Greenwood,
member without portfolio in the British War Cabinet, assured the Jews of the United States that when
victory was achieved an effort would be made to found a new world order based on the ideals of 'justice
and peace.'" -- excerpt from article entitled "New World Order Pledged to Jews," in the New York Times
(October 1940)

"If totalitarianism wins this conflict, the world will be ruled by tyrants, and individuals will be slaves. If
democracy wins, the nations of the earth will be united in a commonwealth of free peoples, and
individuals, wherever found, will be the sovereign units of the new world order." -- The Declaration of the
Federation of the World, produced by the Congress on World Federation, adopted by the Legislatures of
North Carolina (1941), New Jersey (1942), Pennsylvania (1943), and possibly other states.

"New World Order Needed for Peace: State Sovereignty Must Go, Declares Notre Dame Professor" --
title of article in The Tablet (Brooklyn) (March 1942)

"Undersecretary of State Sumner Welles tonight called for the early creation of an international
organization of anti-Axis nations to control the world during the period between the armistice at the end of
the present war and the setting up of a new world order on a permanent basis." -- text of article in the
Philadelphia Inquirer (June 1942)

"The statement went on to say that the spiritual teachings of religion must become the foundation for the
new world order and that national sovereignty must be subordinate to the higher moral law of God." --
American Institute of Judaism, excerpt from article in the New York Times (December 1942)

"There are some plain common-sense considerations applicable to all these attempts at world planning.
They can be briefly stated: 1. To talk of blueprints for the future or building a world order is, if properly
understood, suggestive, but it is also dangerous. Societies grow far more truly than they are built. A
constitution for a new world order is never like a blueprint for a skyscraper." -- Norman Thomas, in his
book "What Is Our Destiny" (1944)

"He [John Foster Dulles] stated directly to me that he had every reason to believe that the Governor
[Thomas E. Dewey of New York] accepts his point of view and that he is personally convinced that this
is the policy that he would promote with great vigor if elected. So it is fair to say that on the first round
the Sphinx of Albany has established himself as a prima facie champion of a strong and definite new
world order." -- excerpt from article by Ralph W. Page in the Philadelphia Bulletin (May 1944)

"The United Nations, he told an audience at Harvard University, 'has not been able--nor can it be able--to
shape a new world order which events so compellingly demand.' ... The new world order that will answer
economic, military, and political problems, he said, 'urgently requires, I believe, that the United States
take the leadership among all free peoples to make the underlying concepts and aspirations of national
sovereignty truly meaningful through the federal approach.'" -- Gov. Nelson Rockefeller of New York, in
an article entitled "Rockefeller Bids Free Lands Unite: Calls at Harvard for Drive to Build New World
Order" -- New York Times (February 1962)

"The developing coherence of Asian regional thinking is reflected in a disposition to consider problems
and loyalties in regional terms, and to evolve regional approaches to development needs and to the
evolution of a new world order." -- Richard Nixon, in Foreign Affairs (October 1967)

"He [President Nixon] spoke of the talks as a beginning, saying nothing more about the prospects for
future contacts and merely reiterating the belief he brought to China that both nations share an interest in
peace and building 'a new world order.'" -- excerpt from an article in the New York Times (February
1972)

"If instant world government, Charter review, and a greatly strengthened International Court do not
provide the answers, what hope for progress is there? The answer will not satisfy those who seek simple
solutions to complex problems, but it comes down essentially to this: The hope for the foreseeable lies,
not in building up a few ambitious central institutions of universal membership and general jurisdiction as
was envisaged at the end of the last war, but rather in the much more decentralized, disorderly and
pragmatic process of inventing or adapting institutions of limited jurisdiction and selected membership to
deal with specific problems on a case-by-case basis ... In short, the 'house of world order' will have to be
built from the bottom up rather than from the top down. It will look like a great 'booming, buzzing
confusion,' to use William James' famous description of reality, but an end run around national
sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece, will accomplish much more than the old-fashioned frontal assault."
-- Richard N. Gardner, in Foreign Affairs (April 1974)

"The existing order is breaking down at a very rapid rate, and the main uncertainty is whether mankind
can exert a positive role in shaping a new world order or is doomed to await collapse in a passive posture.
We believe a new order will be born no later than early in the next century and that the death throes of
the old and the birth pangs of the new will be a testing time for the human species." -- Richard A. Falk, in
an article entitled "Toward a New World Order: Modest Methods and Drastic Visions," in the book "On
the Creation of a Just World Order" (1975)

"My country's history, Mr. President, tells us that it is possible to fashion unity while cherishing diversity,
that common action is possible despite the variety of races, interests, and beliefs we see here in this
chamber. Progress and peace and justice are attainable. So we say to all peoples and governments: Let us
fashion together a new world order." -- Henry Kissinger, in address before the General Assembly of the
United Nations, October 1975)

"At the old Inter-American Office in the Commerce Building here in Roosevelt's time, as Assistant
Secretary of State for Latin American Affairs under President Truman, as chief whip with Adlai
Stevenson and Tom Finletter at the founding of the United Nations in San Francisco, Nelson Rockefeller
was in the forefront of the struggle to establish not only an American system of political and economic
security but a new world order." -- part of article in the New York Times (November 1975)

"A New World Order" -- title of article on commencement address at the University of Pennsylvania by
Hubert H. Humphrey, printed in the Pennsylvania Gazette (June 1977)

"Further global progress is now possible only through a quest for universal consensus in the movement
towards a new world order." -- Mikhail Gorbachev, in an address at the United Nations (December 1988)

"We believe we are creating the beginning of a new world order coming out of the collapse of the
U.S.-Soviet antagonisms." -- Brent Scowcroft (August 1990), quoted in the Washington Post (May 1991)

"We can see beyond the present shadows of war in the Middle East to a new world order where the
strong work together to deter and stop aggression. This was precisely Franklin Roosevelt's and Winston
Churchill's vision for peace for the post-war period." -- Richard Gephardt, in the Wall Street Journal
(September 1990)

"If we do not follow the dictates of our inner moral compass and stand up for human life, then his
lawlessness will threaten the peace and democracy of the emerging new world order we now see, this long
dreamed-of vision we've all worked toward for so long." -- President George Bush (January 1991)

"But it became clear as time went on that in Mr. Bush's mind the New World Order was founded on a
convergence of goals and interests between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, so strong and permanent that
they would work as a team through the U.N. Security Council." -- excerpt from A. M. Rosenthal, in the
New York Times (January 1991)

"I would support a Presidential candidate who pledged to take the following steps: ... At the end of the
war in the Persian Gulf, press for a comprehensive Middle East settlement and for a 'new world order'
based not on Pax Americana but on peace through law with a stronger U.N. and World Court." -- George
McGovern, in the New York Times (February 1991)

"... it's Bush's baby, even if he shares its popularization with Gorbachev. Forget the Hitler 'new order'
root; F.D.R. used the phrase earlier." -- William Safire, in the New York Times (February 1991)

"How I Learned to Love the New World Order" -- article by Sen. Joseph R. Biden, Jr. in the Wall Street
Journal (April 1992)

"How to Achieve The New World Order" -- title of book excerpt by Henry Kissinger, in Time magazine
(March 1994)

"The Final Act of the Uruguay Round, marking the conclusion of the most ambitious trade negotiation of
our century, will give birth - in Morocco - to the World Trade Organization, the third pillar of the New
World Order, along with the United Nations and the International Monetary Fund." -- part of full-page
advertisement by the government of Morocco in the New York Times (April 1994)

"New World Order: The Rise of the Region-State" -- title of article by Kenichi Ohmae, political reform
leader in Japan, in the Wall Street Journal (August 1994)

The "new world order that is in the making must focus on the creation of a world of democracy, peace
and prosperity for all." -- Nelson Mandela, in the Philadelphia Inquirer (October 1994)

The renewal of the nonproliferation treaty was described as important "for the welfare of the whole world
and the new world order." -- President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, in the New York Times (April 1995)

"Alchemy for a New World Order" -- article by Stephen John Stedman in Foreign Affairs (May/June
1995)

"We are not going to achieve a new world order without paying for it in blood as well as in words and
money." -- Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., in Foreign Affairs (July/August 1995)

Damocles
08-09-2007, 08:17 AM
Selling the fiat currency concept to evil men:

1. give them all buckets of monopoly money.
2. Tell them that if they go kill and conquer the land and institute a fiat currency system, they will become rich magically, by assigning value to worthlessness through force of will.

It's really this simple.
This is a perfect example of what I was saying, how you present it makes a difference. He spent too much time on the taxation thing, and it would be foolish to follow the advice of the tax freakos in the movie. Cypress didn't watch long enough to get to the Federal Reserve portion, at the very least not the large bulk of it. He believes the entire flick is about the tax thing and would be wrong. However, since the beginning of the movie pretty much is only about that, one could see where he was getting his opinion from. It is weak to watch 15 minutes then comment that the whole of the movie is uninformative.

Hermes Thoth
08-09-2007, 08:24 AM
This is a perfect example of what I was saying, how you present it makes a difference. He spent too much time on the taxation thing, and it would be foolish to follow the advice of the tax freakos in the movie. Cypress didn't watch long enough to get to the Federal Reserve portion, at the very least not the large bulk of it. He believes the entire flick is about the tax thing and would be wrong. However, since the beginning of the movie pretty much is only about that, one could see where he was getting his opinion from. It is weak to watch 15 minutes then comment that the whole of the movie is uninformative.

word.

Cypress
08-09-2007, 08:26 AM
None taken. In fact I appreciate it. I'll have to take a deeper look at it.

But I didn't really care about the tax thing so much as the Federal reserve aspect of it. I'd really like to hear what you say about that. And the rest of the film.

The thing of it is Beefy, when somebody makes that many mistakes (intentional or unintentional) in the first 15 minutes of the movie, I'm less likely to think they are presenting accurate information.

Now, if somebody makes a movie about Patriot act, black prisons, and REAL ID, that could be awesome.

Hermes Thoth
08-09-2007, 08:28 AM
The thing of it is Beefy, when somebody makes that many mistakes (intentional or unintentional) in the first 15 minutes of the movie, I'm less likely to think they are presenting accurate information.

Now, if somebody makes a movie about Patriot act, black prisons, and REAL ID, that could be awesome.

Why don't you watch the whole thing, fool. That thing about the tax laws is true. It's just most judges will nail you anyway because they're also afraid of the illuminati.

Cypress
08-09-2007, 08:30 AM
Why don't you watch the whole thing, fool. That thing about the tax laws is true. It's just most judges will nail you anyway because they're also afraid of the illuminati.



Why don't you watch the whole thing, fool

For the exact same reason you wouldn't continue to use a plumber who made mistake after mistake, after mistake. You wouldn't trust them to do a good job.

Hermes Thoth
08-09-2007, 08:38 AM
Why don't you watch the whole thing, fool

For the exact same reason you wouldn't continue to use a plumber who made mistake after mistake, after mistake. You wouldn't trust them to do a good job.



Corrupt judges afraid of ruling correctly is not convincing. You cite corruption to defend corruption.

Hermes Thoth
08-09-2007, 08:40 AM
.... and then you get into fractional reserve lending WITH a fiat currency and it really gets meaningless and totalitarian.

Damocles
08-09-2007, 08:41 AM
The thing of it is Beefy, when somebody makes that many mistakes (intentional or unintentional) in the first 15 minutes of the movie, I'm less likely to think they are presenting accurate information.

Now, if somebody makes a movie about Patriot act, black prisons, and REAL ID, that could be awesome.
They are in there.

uscitizen
08-09-2007, 08:42 AM
.... and then you get into fractional reserve lending WITH a fiat currency and it really gets meaningless and totalitarian.

I have always considered Fiat's to be junk.

Fiat = Fix It Again Tony.

Damocles
08-09-2007, 08:46 AM
Why don't you watch the whole thing, fool

For the exact same reason you wouldn't continue to use a plumber who made mistake after mistake, after mistake. You wouldn't trust them to do a good job.
Right. And most would have seen those things in Moore's flick and turned it off. Flashing up documents not signed by those he was saying they were signed by, etc.

Now, either get off the thread, or watch the flick, you don't have enough information to give a truly educated discussion on this movie.

Cypress
08-09-2007, 08:47 AM
Corrupt judges afraid of ruling correctly is not convincing. You cite corruption to defend corruption.


The quote in the movie given for that one judge, was taken wildly out of context and misrepresented. I already showed you.

As for your theory that the a vast conspiracy by the Illuminati has prevented tens of thousands of federal judges from making the "correct" ruling on income tax and the 16th amendment...........

Uh-uhhh. Riiiiiiight.

The fact the you're pimping this movie makes me not want to see the rest of it.

Hermes Thoth
08-09-2007, 09:09 AM
The quote in the movie given for that one judge, was taken wildly out of context and misrepresented. I already showed you.

As for your theory that the a vast conspiracy by the Illuminati has prevented tens of thousands of federal judges from making the "correct" ruling on income tax and the 16th amendment...........

Uh-uhhh. Riiiiiiight.

The fact the you're pimping this movie makes me not want to see the rest of it.

this is not about a single quote from anyone. And people with no case always say things are out of context. The tax part is just part of the film. You should really get your head out of your ass.

Beefy
08-09-2007, 03:39 PM
The quote in the movie given for that one judge, was taken wildly out of context and misrepresented. I already showed you.

As for your theory that the a vast conspiracy by the Illuminati has prevented tens of thousands of federal judges from making the "correct" ruling on income tax and the 16th amendment...........

Uh-uhhh. Riiiiiiight.

The fact the you're pimping this movie makes me not want to see the rest of it.:wanna:





Okay then. You're right, it all must be nothing but lies and junk. Obviously it is only about educating the proles on how to opt out of their taxes.

Like Damo said, it is worth watching through to the end. Either do so or reserve comment. You may be surprised. And for once in your life, just once, don't look at it through some sort of partisan filter.

Watch it, or reserve comment. I'm interested in far more than the tax thing, as that truly is only about 10% of the point of the film. That's why I specifically included the link and asked for thoughts from those who have seen it. Not those who already know the whole thing is garbage and thus don't even need to bother watching it.

We're still friends though.

Hermes Thoth
08-09-2007, 04:02 PM
Okay then. You're right, it all must be nothing but lies and junk. Obviously it is only about educating the proles on how to opt out of their taxes.

Like Damo said, it is worth watching through to the end. Either do so or reserve comment. You may be surprised. And for once in your life, just once, don't look at it through some sort of partisan filter.

Watch it, or reserve comment. I'm interested in far more than the tax thing, as that truly is only about 10% of the point of the film. That's why I specifically included the link and asked for thoughts from those who have seen it. Not those who already know the whole thing is garbage and thus don't even need to bother watching it.

We're still friends though.


Yes. How dare the ignorant masses try to get out of the fascist bondage cypress seems to prefer.