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Beefy
08-06-2007, 12:09 PM
This is one of the great crimes our government has committed. Most people do not know the true story of it, and Janet Reno should have been tried for crimes against humanity in essentially authorizing the murder of over 80 people by means of fire.

This story stinks to high heaven.

If you have time, watch this video.

http://tinyurl.com/2sldjj

doniston
08-06-2007, 12:34 PM
This is one of the great crimes our government has committed. Most people do not know the true story of it, and Janet Reno should have been tried for crimes against humanity in essentially authorizing the murder of over 80 people by means of fire.

This story stinks to high heaven.

If you have time, watch this video.

http://tinyurl.com/2sldjj I don't need to watch it. I was as involved as an outsider could be. I even wrote to Clinton about it. You are correct, it was an horrendus crime. I call it Alamo II

Blackflag
08-06-2007, 12:37 PM
I can't believe we burned the second coming. QQ

uscitizen
08-06-2007, 12:43 PM
You know how those Christians are to the competition. Worse than Illuminati and Joos.

evince
08-06-2007, 12:47 PM
A badly run raid on nutbags who appeared to be abusing kids and hording guns.

Thats about all it was.

uscitizen
08-06-2007, 12:49 PM
A badly run raid on nutbags who appeared to be abusing kids and hording guns.

Thats about all it was.

Damn! you sound just like the ancient Romans....

Beefy
08-06-2007, 12:52 PM
A badly run raid on nutbags who appeared to be abusing kids and hording guns.

Thats about all it was.

Not even close. It was a political manuever that resulted in the burning deaths of over 20 children and 60 adults.

Watch "Rules of Engagement" and "Waco - A New Revelation", it may surprise you to learn the details of how the government committed this atrocity.

uscitizen
08-06-2007, 12:54 PM
I saw a good film on it on LINKTV. Very disturbing and a preview of how our police state will operate.

Cypress
08-06-2007, 12:56 PM
I always felt really bad for the kids, and the innocent adults who died.

I never could muster much pity for the Branch Davidians that gunned down the four ATF agents who showed up with a warrant.

Beefy
08-06-2007, 12:59 PM
I always felt really bad for the kids, and the innocent adults who died.

I never could muster much pity for the Branch Davidians that gunned down the four ATF agents who showed up with a warrant.

The ATF stormed the compound, guns blazing to kill the dogs and ended up killing six Davidians in the raid. And when do you excecute a search warrant with 100 armed and trigger happy federal agents?

If a bunch of armed men came to my house guns firing and all that shit, I would defend myself as well. It didn't have to be that way.

uscitizen
08-06-2007, 12:59 PM
I always felt really bad for the kids, and the innocent adults who died.

I never could muster much pity for the Branch Davidians that gunned down the four ATF agents who showed up with a warrant.
It is generally the outspoken few that screw the pooch for the many....

Cypress
08-06-2007, 01:03 PM
The ATF stormed the compound, guns blazing to kill the dogs and ended up killing six Davidians in the raid. And when do you excecute a search warrant with 100 armed and trigger happy federal agents?

If a bunch of armed men came to my house guns firing and all that shit, I would defend myself as well. It didn't have to be that way.


The ATF agents, under sworn testimony, said the Davidians shot at them first. Maybe they're all lying, I don't know.


Its tragic about the dog getting killed. But that's not a justifiable reason to open fire on law enforcement agents.

uscitizen
08-06-2007, 01:06 PM
Dog getting killed! I had forgotten about that. Death to those FBI guys!

Damocles
08-06-2007, 01:07 PM
Not even close. It was a political manuever that resulted in the burning deaths of over 20 children and 60 adults.

Watch "Rules of Engagement" and "Waco - A New Revelation", it may surprise you to learn the details of how the government committed this atrocity.
No government atrocities could be committed by lefties, the only real atrocities that she'll believe in are what could be done with voting machines and only then if it is perceived to have happened to her detriment.

Cypress
08-06-2007, 01:11 PM
Unless the forensic and arson investigators are all lying, the Branch Davidians started the fire.



Frontline PBS:

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberatley set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)

Beefy
08-06-2007, 01:18 PM
Unless the forensic and arson investigators are all lying, the Branch Davidians started the fire.

It doesn't jive with the videos of the scene, and the facts. They can say what they say, but it is inconsistent with the videotaped history of the actual event.

This is almost Orwell shit. There it is on tape, and the government saying no, its not there, and for the most part, the masses accepting it.

Seriously, do some independent research, not just the documentaries that were made, but the news footage, the negotiation tapes, the use of the military to storm a private church which is patently illegal.

Beefy
08-06-2007, 01:21 PM
Not only that, but there were 4 cameras trained on the front door when the raid happened, and the ATF claims to have lost all 4 tapes, as well as a series of minutes recorded on schede the day of the raid.

Cypress
08-06-2007, 01:22 PM
It doesn't jive with the videos of the scene, and the facts. They can say what they say, but it is inconsistent with the videotaped history of the actual event.

This is almost Orwell shit. There it is on tape, and the government saying no, its not there, and for the most part, the masses accepting it.

Seriously, do some independent research, not just the documentaries that were made, but the news footage, the negotiation tapes, the use of the military to storm a private church which is patently illegal.


Beefy, I didn't buy the wild conspiracies about the Twin Towers. I'm not going to buy conspiracy theories about the Davidian complex either, unless there's professional testimony from arson and fire experts. I can look at all the videos I want, but that doesn't make me an expert.

That's not to say there aren't serious questions about either tragedy that have been glossed over, or missed.

uscitizen
08-06-2007, 01:22 PM
Dems create some horrible autrocities, many of them must have voted for Bush.

Beefy
08-06-2007, 01:26 PM
That's not to say there aren't serious questions about either tragedy that have been glossed over, or missed.

All I'm saying is that if you look deeper into this thing, it was a true travesty and failure of the government that didn't have to end the way it did. The negotiation tapes are on the internets. Listen to them.

uscitizen
08-06-2007, 01:29 PM
It doesn't jive with the videos of the scene, and the facts. They can say what they say, but it is inconsistent with the videotaped history of the actual event.

This is almost Orwell shit. There it is on tape, and the government saying no, its not there, and for the most part, the masses accepting it.

Seriously, do some independent research, not just the documentaries that were made, but the news footage, the negotiation tapes, the use of the military to storm a private church which is patently illegal.

In a police state anything the govt does is legal.

evince
08-06-2007, 01:32 PM
Not even close. It was a political manuever that resulted in the burning deaths of over 20 children and 60 adults.

Watch "Rules of Engagement" and "Waco - A New Revelation", it may surprise you to learn the details of how the government committed this atrocity.

What exactly were they going to gain from this whole situation?

Im not saying there was NO cover up by the agents themselves but what was the gov going to gain from this raid?

uscitizen
08-06-2007, 01:34 PM
What exactly were they going to gain from this whole situation?

Im not saying there was NO cover up by the agents themselves but what was the gov going to gain from this raid?

Umm Pandering to the religious right ?

Cypress
08-06-2007, 01:39 PM
All I'm saying is that if you look deeper into this thing, it was a true travesty and failure of the government that didn't have to end the way it did. The negotiation tapes are on the internets. Listen to them.


I have no doubt it was an all around clusterfuck.

What I am having trouble believing, is that all the ATF agensts, and all the forensic and arson experts lied under oath. That would be one hell of a conspiracy. I'm going with the experts, that the Branch Davidians lite themselves on fire. Not the government.

Now, as to question of overly aggresive government tactics, and abuse of government power, I'm still open to those as legitimate questions.

evince
08-06-2007, 01:57 PM
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten.html#branch

I think this is a pretty fair look at the question in the case.

doniston
08-06-2007, 02:05 PM
I always felt really bad for the kids, and the innocent adults who died.

I never could muster much pity for the Branch Davidians that gunned down the four ATF agents who showed up with a warrant. That is garbage. it never happened.

doniston
08-06-2007, 02:07 PM
The ATF stormed the compound, guns blazing to kill the dogs and ended up killing six Davidians in the raid. And when do you excecute a search warrant with 100 armed and trigger happy federal agents?

If a bunch of armed men came to my house guns firing and all that shit, I would defend myself as well. It didn't have to be that way. Where are you guys getting this stuff. That never happened either.

uscitizen
08-06-2007, 02:10 PM
It all started out with a bunch of Jehovas Withesses knocking on Koresh's door.....

doniston
08-06-2007, 02:14 PM
Unless the forensic and arson investigators are all lying, the Branch Davidians started the fire.



Frontline PBS:

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberatley set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)

This is correct eccept the first sentnce. the ones who said they didn't start the fire, were not present in the building when it went up, which is why they survived, and they couldn't possibly know what happened inside except by guestimation.

DigitalDave
08-06-2007, 02:52 PM
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten.html#branch

I think this is a pretty fair look at the question in the case.

I'm not sure if we should trust a government sponsored media outlet when it was a government agency that should be investigated. I find it incredibly odd that there were so many video records and missing information that was once there but is now gone. Incredibly odd that some of the things they said they didn't do, are videotaped. What was there to gain for the ATF?

Who knows, but they obviously wanted publicity, or else they wouldn't have tipped off so many news reporters beforehand.

evince
08-06-2007, 02:57 PM
These people thought the end of the world was nie.

It was self fullfilling prophecy on their part.

doniston
08-06-2007, 05:07 PM
These people thought the end of the world was nie.

It was self fullfilling prophecy on their part.i You are mistaken---wrong group.

evince
08-06-2007, 08:16 PM
nope read up on them they thought it was coming any minute

uscitizen
08-07-2007, 01:43 AM
yeah they had already missed the comet....

Nutcases abound and seem to clump together.

Kinda like on here ?

DigitalDave
08-07-2007, 09:16 AM
Yeah, and in 1999 the FBI admitted that the testimony they gave to the Danforth Commitee was false, and admitted that they did use Flite-Rite pyrotechnic grenades. It's kind of hard to believe anything the government has to say on this.

They may have been one group of weird people, but that is no reason to apologize for the government's major screw up on this case. We might never know the actual truth because they tryed to cover their asses any way they can, and made it obvious they did something they shouldn't have as well.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 09:21 AM
Yeah, and in 1999 the FBI admitted that the testimony they gave to the Danforth Commitee was false, and admitted that they did use Flite-Rite pyrotechnic grenades. It's kind of hard to believe anything the government has to say on this.

They may have been one group of weird people, but that is no reason to apologize for the government's major screw up on this case. We might never know the actual truth because they tryed to cover their asses any way they can, and made it obvious they did something they shouldn't have as well.
This.

evince
08-07-2007, 09:23 AM
No doubt things were done wrong .

I just dont think it was this big consperiacy to kill loonies.

It was a shittily planned raid that went very badly.

The people in the house could have ended it at any time and sued the shit out of the government.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 09:27 AM
No doubt things were done wrong .

I just dont think it was this big consperiacy to kill loonies.

It was a shittily planned raid that went very badly.

The people in the house could have ended it at any time and sued the shit out of the government.
The conspiracy was in the coverup.

Cypress
08-07-2007, 09:34 AM
Yeah, and in 1999 the FBI admitted that the testimony they gave to the Danforth Commitee was false, and admitted that they did use Flite-Rite pyrotechnic grenades. It's kind of hard to believe anything the government has to say on this.

They may have been one group of weird people, but that is no reason to apologize for the government's major screw up on this case. We might never know the actual truth because they tryed to cover their asses any way they can, and made it obvious they did something they shouldn't have as well.

Like I said, I don't doubt there may have been a lot of CYA and misleading.

But, this still has nothing to do with the original contention.

And Independent Prosector (A Republican by the way) concluded that the Davidians lit themselves on fire. The government didn't start the fire.


I don't buy tin foil hat conspiracies until credible evidence and expert testimony is provided.

doniston
08-07-2007, 09:42 AM
nope read up on them they thought it was coming any minute I did, ----when it happened. You are wrong.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 09:43 AM
I think she has them confused with the Heaven's Gate folk.

Their beautiful website, very informative:

http://www.wave.net/upg/gate/

It seems they had a fixation with the Green Bay Packers, or were psychically linked to Glenn Beck's show.

doniston
08-07-2007, 09:45 AM
yeah they had already missed the comet....

Nutcases abound and seem to clump together.

Kinda like on here ? The comet-keepers (Heavens's Gaters)were a different group who killed themselves under purple blankets in cots, domitory style, with poisen, not fire. (sorry --barbituates)

doniston
08-07-2007, 09:48 AM
No doubt things were done wrong .

I just dont think it was this big consperiacy to kill loonies.

It was a shittily planned raid that went very badly.

The people in the house could have ended it at any time and sued the shit out of the government. Not quite.---The Government was out to get them all, even the little old Grandmas, NOT just David Koresh

Cancel7
08-07-2007, 09:49 AM
I think she has them confused with the Heaven's Gate folk.

Their beautiful website, very informative:

http://www.wave.net/upg/gate/

It seems they had a fixation with the Green Bay Packers, or were psychically linked to Glenn Beck's show.

I remember those guys, they took the barbituates right? And they "packed" black nikes that they would need in the comet? I always wondered, because they took the drugs at different times, not all at once, why after the first couple died, and the others noticed that the bags and nikes they had packed for the trip were still there, they didn't have second thoughts.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 09:51 AM
I remember those guys, they took the barbituates right? And they "packed" black nikes that they would need in the comet? I always wondered, because they took the drugs at different times, not all at once, why after the first couple died, and the others noticed that the bags and nikes they had packed for the trip were still there, they didn't have second thoughts.
I thought they did plastic baggies over their heads... And had like $4.37 in their left pockets along with the black Nikes and the ugly haircuts.

Cancel7
08-07-2007, 09:51 AM
I thought they did plastic baggies over their heads... And had like $4.37 in their left pockets along with the black Nikes and the ugly haircuts.

Hmm, that does sound familar, I could be wrong.

doniston
08-07-2007, 09:55 AM
I remember those guys, they took the barbituates right? And they "packed" black nikes that they would need in the comet? I always wondered, because they took the drugs at different times, not all at once, why after the first couple died, and the others noticed that the bags and nikes they had packed for the trip were still there, they didn't have second thoughts. Actually, I never heard that it was a bit by bit suicide. If I remember correctly it was all done in one night (while the spaceship was safely hidden behind the moon.)

evince
08-07-2007, 10:01 AM
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/bran.html

evince
08-07-2007, 10:01 AM
Emphasizing that truth is gradually revealed over time, Houteff referred to his teachings as the "Present Truth." Houteff focused on establishing a true church of 144,000 believers and unlocking the biblical secrets because he believed the end was near.

doniston
08-07-2007, 10:02 AM
The conspiracy was in the coverup. RIGHT, the actual deeds were well publicized.

doniston
08-07-2007, 10:04 AM
Like I said, I don't doubt there may have been a lot of CYA and misleading.

But, this still has nothing to do with the original contention.

And Independent Prosector (A Republican by the way) concluded that the Davidians lit themselves on fire. The government didn't start the fire.


I don't buy tin foil hat conspiracies until credible evidence and expert testimony is provided. See post 50. regarding the conspiracy.

DigitalDave
08-07-2007, 10:04 AM
Like I said, I don't doubt there may have been a lot of CYA and misleading.

But, this still has nothing to do with the original contention.

And Independent Prosector (A Republican by the way) concluded that the Davidians lit themselves on fire. The government didn't start the fire.


I don't buy tin foil hat conspiracies until credible evidence and expert testimony is provided.

Like Damo said, the conspiracy is in the cover-up. Just exactly WHO is credible? Danforth was a Episcopal priest as well, don't you think that he have took issue with the Davidians as well?

Danforth never went after the ATF agents that assaulted a camerman that had filmed their retreat. It was caught on tape!

One of the children was killed by a ferret round shot by an FBI agent, and they rammed the walls with tanks. Thats a gross disregard for human life, but yet did Danforth do anything in that respect either? Nope....

Just who do you trust exactly?

evince
08-07-2007, 10:05 AM
They were a sect of nutbags who preached that God was coing to get them soon.

It is very had to deal with people who want the world to end now.

The FBI did some stupid stuff but to Label Janet Reno as some monster because of these failings was pretty extreme.

She called for a second investigation as soon as she realised things were ot coming up right.

DigitalDave
08-07-2007, 10:10 AM
They were a sect of nutbags who preached that God was coing to get them soon.

It is very had to deal with people who want the world to end now.

The FBI did some stupid stuff but to Label Janet Reno as some monster because of these failings was pretty extreme.

She called for a second investigation as soon as she realised things were ot coming up right.

I wasn't talking about Reno....hadn't even mentioned her name.

evince
08-07-2007, 10:13 AM
This is one of the great crimes our government has committed. Most people do not know the true story of it, and Janet Reno should have been tried for crimes against humanity in essentially authorizing the murder of over 80 people by means of fire.

This story stinks to high heaven.

If you have time, watch this video.

http://tinyurl.com/2sldjj

it was the subject of the thread

evince
08-07-2007, 10:16 AM
I dont trust anyone automatically but I really dont trust religious nutbags who think they have the right to fuck 13 year old girls and call them their Wifes because God says they are supposed to have mulitiple wifes.

Cancel7
08-07-2007, 10:17 AM
I dont trust anyone automatically but I really dont trust religious nutbags who think they have the right to fuck 13 year old girls and call them their Wifes because God says they are supposed to have mulitiple wifes.

Hmm...there's a good point.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 10:17 AM
I dont trust anyone automatically but I really dont trust religious nutbags who think they have the right to fuck 13 year old girls and call them their Wifes because God says they are supposed to have mulitiple wifes.
And surrounding them did what for those girls? Along with phosphor grenades in a place lit by kerosene as they had cut off the power?

Cancel7
08-07-2007, 10:18 AM
Like Damo said, the conspiracy is in the cover-up. Just exactly WHO is credible? Danforth was a Episcopal priest as well, don't you think that he have took issue with the Davidians as well?

Danforth never went after the ATF agents that assaulted a camerman that had filmed their retreat. It was caught on tape!

One of the children was killed by a ferret round shot by an FBI agent, and they rammed the walls with tanks. Thats a gross disregard for human life, but yet did Danforth do anything in that respect either? Nope....

Just who do you trust exactly?

Well, I don't trust the fbi either. There's not really any particularly credible source involved in the whole thing.

DigitalDave
08-07-2007, 10:29 AM
it was the subject of the thread

Well, in all honesty, she was in charge, and she may have been incredibly decieved herself by who was on this case, but alarms should have went off when some of the suspended Ruby Ridge officials were assigned to this. One was later put in prison for destroying evidence in that case.

As far as his beliefs go, he thought he was going to die in a war with 'Babylonians riding chariots', whcih he interpreted to mean he was going to die by FBI Agents and tanks. Mercy killing was ok to them during this and would be honorable. So Yes, I think they killed themselves, but I can't even be sure of my assumption because of the massive fuck-up that happened.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 10:30 AM
Well, in all honesty, she was in charge, and she may have been incredibly decieved herself by who was on this case, but alarms should have went off when some of the suspended Ruby Ridge officials were assigned to this. One was later put in prison for destroying evidence in that case.

As far as his beliefs go, he thought he was going to die in a war with 'Babylonians riding chariots', whcih he interpreted to mean he was going to die by FBI Agents and tanks. Mercy killing was ok to them during this and would be honorable. So Yes, I think they killed themselves, but I can't even be sure of my assumption because of the massive fuck-up that happened.
No, that was also disputed later in the investigations. She was large and in charge.

doniston
08-07-2007, 12:27 PM
Hmm, that does sound familar, I could be wrong. I have forgotten about the coins. Paper money would have disinigrated.

doniston
08-07-2007, 12:34 PM
Hmm...there's a good point. To each his or her own. some people and tribes beleive it is perfectlu OK. ME??? NOPE. But David was supposedly married to two 12 year olds. not one, TWO.

Cancel7
08-07-2007, 12:40 PM
To each his or her own. some people and tribes beleive it is perfectlu OK. ME??? NOPE. But David was supposedly married to two 12 year olds. not one, TWO.

Oh well, when it comes to 12 year olds, I don't give a crap what "some people" believe, and neither does the law. "Beliefs" like that will get your ass slapped right into jail, where it would belong.

Damocles
08-07-2007, 12:54 PM
Oh well, when it comes to 12 year olds, I don't give a crap what "some people" believe, and neither does the law. "Beliefs" like that will get your ass slapped right into jail, where it would belong.
Which could have been done during one of his morning jogs around the compound.

evince
08-07-2007, 01:42 PM
Oh well, when it comes to 12 year olds, I don't give a crap what "some people" believe, and neither does the law. "Beliefs" like that will get your ass slapped right into jail, where it would belong.

Its called child molestation

doniston
08-07-2007, 02:16 PM
Oh well, when it comes to 12 year olds, I don't give a crap what "some people" believe, and neither does the law. "Beliefs" like that will get your ass slapped right into jail, where it would belong. But it didn't In Koresh's case. if it had. the compound wouldn't have been burned.

doniston
08-07-2007, 02:17 PM
Its called child molestation Of course (or worse) you think we didn't know that???