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evince
08-16-2006, 01:23 PM
http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/smalko3.

evince
08-16-2006, 01:26 PM
ATHEISTS FILE CIVIL RIGHTS SUIT IN "OKLAHOMA OUTRAGE" - SMALKOWSKI PRAYER BULLYING CASE


Web Posted: August 12, 2006
merican Atheists filed suit in federal court Friday in a case involving charges of "prayer bullying" and conspiracy to violate the civil rights of an Atheist family.

In November, 2004, Nicole Smalkowski -- a student at Hardesty Oklahoma High School and member of the female basketball squad -- was ordered by her coach to participate in a game-time recitation of the "Lord's Prayer." Ms. Smalkowski, an Atheist, refused and was then banished to the locker room. Days later, following a meeting of school officials, she was punished by being removed from the team.

The suit charges that Nicole and the rest of her family were then made the victims of false accusations and "subjected to public humiliation and distress." Her father, Chester Smalkowski, tried to meet with the School Principal who "struck Plaintiff Chester Smalkowski repeatedly without warning or provocation." Incredibly, a warrant was filed against Mr. Smalkowski who was arrested and scheduled for trial. Officials with the District Attorney's Office in Texas County, Oklahoma then offered a deal where charges would be dropped if the Smalkowski family agreed to leave the jurisdiction.

He refused the buckle under to the intimidation.

Represented by attorneys Tom Gungoll and American Atheists National Legal Director Edwin Kagin, Smalkowski endured a five-day trial that included a grilling of the school district superintendent. Mr. Kagin patiently explained to the jurors what Atheism was. Many of the prospective jurors opined that they could not believe the word of an Atheist over that of a god-fearing Christian, and were struck for cause. Some, including the wives of two local ministers, admitted that they were incapable of being fair to an Atheist in such a situation.

Attorney Tim Gungoll told the jury panel that he was a Roman Catholic, but that the facts of the case -- not the religion of any of the parties -- were of primary importance.

evince
08-16-2006, 01:27 PM
Chester Smalkowski was acquitted unanimously.

The federal suit, filed Friday in US District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma names a battery of defendants including school officials, the Texas County Sheriff's Department, County officers and the Town of Hardesty, Oklahoma. It charges that the family's constitutional rights were violated under, but not limited to, the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Eighth, Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments. It also charges that school officials "unlawfully and unconstitutionally met in conspiracy to violate (the) Plaintiff's constitutional rights."

In addition, it is charged that members of the District Attorney's staff "conspired ... to punish Plaintiff Chester Smalkowski for his religious views by prosecuting a criminal case against him" that they knew "to be grounded on false statements and perjury."



The suit notes that a year after the first incident involving Ms. Smalkowski, she once again tried to participate in the girl's basketball team. Again, Coach Ernest Cook "attempted to force Plaintiff N.S. to recite the "Lord's Prayer." Ms Smalkowski instead "chose to recite the Pledge of Allegiance." This time, the suit charges, Nicole Smalkowski was punished by school officials who falsely accused her of "threatening another student." She was suspended "without a Due Process hearing or notice, as is required by Oklahoma Statutes." Eventually, she was suspended and denied her statutory right to a hearing.

A school board member and her husband, a Texas County Deputy Sheriff are identified and charged in the lawsuit as conspirators who "attempted to hire, coerce, or otherwise convince, for payment of money or other consideration on school property, one Jerry Kelly to inflict personal harm on Plaintiff Chester Smalkowski in retaliation for his religious opinions and in further retaliation for Plaintiff Chester Smalkowski's attempt to defend his daughter and family against the false and malicious allegations..."

Another charge focuses on a Deputy Sheriff who ostensibly ordered the submission of falsified policy reports and attempting under false pretext to have Mr. Smalkowski re-arrested. Other allegations listed include:

Immanuel
08-16-2006, 01:50 PM
Good, I'm glad he was acquitted but I thought you didn't believe in Freedom of Religion. I thought you only believed in Freedom from Religion.

Immie

evince
08-16-2006, 02:01 PM
Immy where would you get that impression?

klaatu
08-16-2006, 02:07 PM
Immy where would you get that impression? :cof1:
:eek:

evince
08-16-2006, 02:08 PM
are you this prejudice of anyone with religious beliefs that differ from your own?

OrnotBitwise
08-16-2006, 02:19 PM
Good, I'm glad he was acquitted but I thought you didn't believe in Freedom of Religion. I thought you only believed in Freedom from Religion.

Immie
A large part of any meaningful Freedom of Religion is clearly a freedom from religion. Freedom from participation in anyone else's religion. Freedom from intimidation if you happen to partake of a minority religion.

Granted, such freedom does not extend to freedom from having to hear my idiot neighbor's infantile prayer meetings on weekends. More's the pity. They make me wish for a hand-grenade at times but such is life.

Damocles
08-16-2006, 02:21 PM
Just hold some of your own. In the middle of theirs, just start having over the group of sports fans that is loudest...

:D

klaatu
08-16-2006, 02:33 PM
are you this prejudice of anyone with religious beliefs that differ from your own?

explain ....

OrnotBitwise
08-16-2006, 02:34 PM
Just hold some of your own. In the middle of theirs, just start having over the group of sports fans that is loudest...

:D
My wife wants to have a group of monks out to cleanse the house. Unrelated reasons: the neighbors don't bother her at all. That should be interesting though! I can't wait to see what the reaction to the chanting will be.

:burn:

evince
08-16-2006, 03:14 PM
:eek:



Please give examples of what about my beliefs you find objectionable.

evince
08-16-2006, 03:15 PM
My wife wants to have a group of monks out to cleanse the house. Unrelated reasons: the neighbors don't bother her at all. That should be interesting though! I can't wait to see what the reaction to the chanting will be.

:burn:


Good thing you dont live in OK

Immanuel
08-16-2006, 03:25 PM
are you this prejudice of anyone with religious beliefs that differ from your own?

No, I am not, but you clearly are. Just how many thousands of rants have you posted against people with Christian beliefs?

Immie

evince
08-16-2006, 03:59 PM
None!

evince
08-16-2006, 04:00 PM
BTW thawt ? was for Klat

Immanuel
08-16-2006, 04:00 PM
None!

Really how about this one that we are reading and the duplicate over on fullpolitics.com?

http://www.fullpolitics.com/viewthread.php?tid=20978

Immie

OrnotBitwise
08-16-2006, 04:22 PM
Good thing you dont live in OK
They don't allow me in OK. All of the border inspection stations have my picture and they force me to drive clear around the state.

Immanuel
08-16-2006, 04:24 PM
Ornot,

I agree with you. The Separation of Church and State goes both ways. We should have the right to choose the religion of our choice even if that choice is no religion. However, far too often, I see us trying to force that choice upon others.

I know for a fact that Christians attempt to force their beliefs upon others. This story is only one example of such things. If this story is true (and it appears to me that it is) then it is reprehensible that this family would have been treated in this manner. I won't even go into the attitudes of people like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell.

However, athiest are not exempt from some of the guilt in this argument. They attempt to force others to remain behind closed doors in their religious expression. Michael Neudau is one such example. He believes his rights trump the rights of every other American including his ex-wife and daughter.

The Separation of Church and State protects my right to worship God and your right to ignore him. The Separation of Church and State is a protection FOR me. It prevents (as long as it stands) the government from forcing me to worship a God that I don't chose to worship. Say the Mormon God or the Jehovah's Witness God.

As for my comment to Desh about her only believing in Freedom from Religion, I was just picking on her. I have not done that in a while and felt she needed it. She's welcome to believe that we Christians are the devil's spawn and I will continue to believe that you Athiest are the devil himself. ;)

Immie

evince
08-16-2006, 04:28 PM
No, I am not, but you clearly are. Just how many thousands of rants have you posted against people with Christian beliefs?

Immie



How is this a rant against people swith christain beliefs?

Are you sujesting all christians would do this?

I know for a fact the Vast majority of Christains would be appauled at this story.

Immanuel
08-16-2006, 04:39 PM
How is this a rant against people swith christain beliefs?

Are you sujesting all christians would do this?

I know for a fact the Vast majority of Christains would be appauled at this story.

The following are some of your rants about us evil Christians on FP.com in the thread I highlighted:


Now who is really under attack in this country?

It aint christians!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Im so sick of the lying religious nutballs


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Do you hate all people who dont have the same religion as you?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

how would you christains feel walking around NOT telling people you believe in christ because of howthey would treat you?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I cant tell people what I believe and then have to listen to christains who are the VAST majority say their religion is under attack by Democrats.




Yes, we Christians are just so evil. The vast majority of America hates the woman behind the moniker, Deshrubinator aka Desh, because so many of them are those despised Christians and if they only knew how much the Woman behind Deshrubinator hated them, they would treat her with contempt.

Immie

evince
08-16-2006, 04:47 PM
are you a lying nutball? No I dont think you are.

This was directed at lying religious nutballs NOT christians.

evince
08-16-2006, 04:48 PM
how would you christains feel walking around NOT telling people you believe in christ because of howthey would treat you?
This was a question in attempt to get you to understand WHO is being persicuted in this coutry.

evince
08-16-2006, 04:51 PM
cant tell people what I believe and then have to listen to christains who are the VAST majority say their religion is under attack by Democrats.


This is absolute truth,

Jews are sometimes persicuted, Muslims, Wiccans and others are sometimes too but Almost every example I hear about Christains being persicuted is utter crap.

Immanuel
08-16-2006, 04:56 PM
how would you christains feel walking around NOT telling people you believe in christ because of howthey would treat you?
This was a question in attempt to get you to understand WHO is being persicuted in this coutry.

Sorry, you will never convince me that athiests who do not try to force everyone else to be athiests are persecuted. Michael Neudau is one of those who attempted to force his beliefs upon everyone else. It also seems (I was reading a post from this Chuck Smalkowski fellow on democraticunderground.com (granted this may be an impersonator) and the various articles I saw online, but it appears that this man may also have declared war upon Christians maybe even before this incident began.

You all assume that the story began at the removal of his daughter from the basketball team (which I contend is a reprehensible thing to do), but how do you know that the story does not go back further than this. What if Chuckie boy had tried to get the coach removed from her position because she was seen entering a church on Wednesday night? We do not know the whole story here.

Immie

Immanuel
08-16-2006, 04:58 PM
cant tell people what I believe and then have to listen to christains who are the VAST majority say their religion is under attack by Democrats.


This is absolute truth,

Jews are sometimes persicuted, Muslims, Wiccans and others are sometimes too but Almost every example I hear about Christains being persicuted is utter crap.

Regardless, it is just one example after many others of your disdain of Christians.

Immie

evince
08-16-2006, 07:08 PM
Immy I dont have on ounce of distain of christians.

I do not believe in their fantasys and that is that.

I perfer science to myth.

This is not an insult to christians its just how I believe,

You believe its fact ,I believe its a myth just like all the other gods people have made up throughout history.

Immanuel
08-17-2006, 06:10 AM
Desh said, "Im so sick of the lying religious nutballs"

You know when you accuse all religious people of being lying nutballs that sounds disdainful to me. It also sounds like you are the one that is lying.

Immie

Damocles
08-17-2006, 06:34 AM
I've always been amazed at people who spend time presenting how Christianity isn't persecuted by insulting and trashing the religion. It is very popular right now to trash Christians... They are insulted, presented as rubes who all think that evolution is somehow wrong and therefore they must be "backwards" and "sciencehaters" etc...

It isn't Buddhism anybody spends time trashing here... It isn't popular to make fun of people who think the Dalai Lama is the direct reincarnation of a man who walked with Siddhartha...

Scorn is a form of persecution.

OrnotBitwise
08-17-2006, 09:06 AM
I've always been amazed at people who spend time presenting how Christianity isn't persecuted by insulting and trashing the religion. It is very popular right now to trash Christians... They are insulted, presented as rubes who all think that evolution is somehow wrong and therefore they must be "backwards" and "sciencehaters" etc...

It isn't Buddhism anybody spends time trashing here... It isn't popular to make fun of people who think the Dalai Lama is the direct reincarnation of a man who walked with Siddhartha...

Scorn is a form of persecution.
Or it can be a form of defense. Or it can be a figment of someone's childish, whiney imagination. "Mom, the nasty atheist is p-p-pickin' on us!"

Lest we forget, Christianity is by far the dominant religion in both the United States and the U.K.. Any claim that Christians in general are "persecuted" is ridiculous on its face and can be dismissed out of hand.

Any claim that Christians are persecuted may be absurd, but that doesn't mean that certain minority sects can't make the claim. I flatly refuse to acknowledge any such claim until such time said minority sect stops trying to arrogate the term "Christian" to mean themselves alone.

uscitizen
08-17-2006, 09:13 AM
Yes those darn snake handler churches are always whining about being picked on.

OrnotBitwise
08-17-2006, 09:17 AM
Yes those darn snake handler churches are always whining about being picked on.
They are, as are various other slightly less extreme -- but still demented -- Evangelical and Charismatic sects.

The annoying thing is that they, alone among Christians, may have some legitimate claim.

Damocles
08-17-2006, 09:25 AM
Or it can be a form of defense. Or it can be a figment of someone's childish, whiney imagination. "Mom, the nasty atheist is p-p-pickin' on us!"

Lest we forget, Christianity is by far the dominant religion in both the United States and the U.K.. Any claim that Christians in general are "persecuted" is ridiculous on its face and can be dismissed out of hand.

Any claim that Christians are persecuted may be absurd, but that doesn't mean that certain minority sects can't make the claim. I flatly refuse to acknowledge any such claim until such time said minority sect stops trying to arrogate the term "Christian" to mean themselves alone.
This is like saying, "The minority can never be prejudiced!" it is rubbish. Just because they are a majority religion doesn't mean that persecution cannot happen. If it becomes the norm to make fun of christians and their beliefs it is persecution regardless of whether they are the majority.

If you don't think that a christian attending school being made fun of because he prays before eating doesn't feel persecuted then I think you are just being uncompassionate. Or the man who comes to preach being spit upon (I've personally seen this one)... Or just the general scorn one has toward people who have Faith in general...

It is simply ignorance to say that nobody can be persecuted if they can find more than one or two of them around...

Care4all
08-17-2006, 09:31 AM
This is like saying, "The minority can never be prejudiced!" it is rubbish. Just because they are a majority religion doesn't mean that persecution cannot happen. If it becomes the norm to make fun of christians and their beliefs it is persecution regardless of whether they are the majority.

If you don't think that a christian attending school being made fun of because he prays before eating doesn't feel persecuted then I think you are just being uncompassionate. Or the man who comes to preach being spit upon (I've personally seen this one)... Or just the general scorn one has toward people who have Faith in general...

It is simply ignorance to say that nobody can be persecuted if they can find more than one or two of them around...

Excellent Post!

The key is really treating others as you would want them to treat you if you were in their shoes....

OrnotBitwise
08-17-2006, 09:55 AM
This is like saying, "The minority can never be prejudiced!" it is rubbish. Just because they are a majority religion doesn't mean that persecution cannot happen. If it becomes the norm to make fun of christians and their beliefs it is persecution regardless of whether they are the majority.

If you don't think that a christian attending school being made fun of because he prays before eating doesn't feel persecuted then I think you are just being uncompassionate. Or the man who comes to preach being spit upon (I've personally seen this one)... Or just the general scorn one has toward people who have Faith in general...

It is simply ignorance to say that nobody can be persecuted if they can find more than one or two of them around...
Damo, how can a minority persecute the majority, unless said minority is in a position of power? Individual incidents, sure, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about patterns and trends.

Christians -- in general -- are not persecuted. The very idea is too absurd to even entertain seriously. Individual Christians may feel persecuted when they momentarily find themselves outnumbered, but that's transient. The fact is that atheists and non-Christians are far more often persecuted and harassed in this society. If you've never experienced that yourself then you are most fortunate. Even in the S.F. Bay Area, however, I experience it almost daily.

As I said, this doesn't mean that certain minority sects within Christianity aren't persecuted. I just refuse to use the label "Christians" in such a context. If you mean Evangelicals then say Evangelicals.

Damocles
08-17-2006, 10:03 AM
Damo, how can a minority persecute the majority, unless said minority is in a position of power? Individual incidents, sure, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about patterns and trends.


Are you saying those that make fun of christianity are never in a position of power? I have personally seen it. I know it does take place. I am not generalizing either. This is more like saying "Do beavers exist?" answer, "Yes, I have seen one."

Some christian persecution does exist. Just as, in some places, christians use their power to get their way.



Christians -- in general -- are not persecuted. The very idea is too absurd to even entertain seriously. Individual Christians may feel persecuted when they momentarily find themselves outnumbered, but that's transient. The fact is that atheists and non-Christians are far more often persecuted and harassed in this society. If you've never experienced that yourself then you are most fortunate. Even in the S.F. Bay Area, however, I experience it almost daily.


I agree, in general, they are not persecuted. However stating that means they are never persecuted in the US is a logical fallacy...



As I said, this doesn't mean that certain minority sects within Christianity aren't persecuted. I just refuse to use the label "Christians" in such a context. If you mean Evangelicals then say Evangelicals.

One doesn't have to be a minority sect at all. One just needs to really apply it in life. Christ taught people to give thanks for their food, when one follows the religion and does this at school they are often made fun of... To say that they wouldn't feel persecuted at that time is a bit disingenuous and, as I stated before, uncompassionate....

Or when one, last year it happened this way, goes to the WalMart website and sees a Hannukah section, a Kwanzaa section, but only a "Holiday Section" refers to anything special happening for them... Exclusion can also be persecution. Even if you are the majority. WalMart got smart and changed the website and created a Christmas section as well... That isn't always the case.

All of this, for me, is from the outside looking in. I understand that when I meditate, if I am in public, people will look at me oddly. In a land where the majority are "christians" it should not be the same for somebody praying over food.

OrnotBitwise
08-17-2006, 10:33 AM
In a land where the majority are "christians" it should not be the same for somebody praying over food.
Whyever not? Aberrent behavior is aberrent behavior. As you yourself point out, when you behave outside of the norm you have to expect a certain amount of disapproval and/or ridicule from those who don't. That really is just human nature and it absolutely never will change. It can and probably should be mitigated but it will be with us forever.

To clarify, "Christian" is an exceedingly broad label. It encompases a wide range of behaviors and beliefs. Praying in public is not a "normal" behavior in this society, despite the fact that it is largely made up of Christians.

Damocles
08-17-2006, 10:35 AM
Sigh... It is, however, a very christian action, and they will feel persecuted if you make fun of them.... Saying it isn't so doesn't change that the christian was persecuted regardless of their "majority" status.

uscitizen
08-17-2006, 10:41 AM
Excellent Post!

The key is really treating others as you would want them to treat you if you were in their shoes....

Yes but many apsdects of many religions and sects make this impossible, it would be a sin to treat the infidel unbeliever as you would like to be treated. After they are only godless sinners.

uscitizen
08-17-2006, 10:42 AM
When I was young I got jumped on by the church for being friends with a catholic. Those sinner catholics allowed drinking and dancing, GASP! I can't imagine what they would have done to me if the boy had been an avowed atheist. Basically no one in the south admits to not believeing in God. But the statistics say there are many.

Damocles
08-17-2006, 10:44 AM
When I was young I got jumped on by the church for being friends with a catholic. Those sinner catholics allowed drinking and dancing, GASP!
We danced, but only to god songs... It was the Mormons who were the true evil among us. Followed closely by the Catholics... Those Icon-Worshippers actually thought the way to God was through Priests!

OrnotBitwise
08-17-2006, 10:48 AM
Sigh... It is, however, a very christian action, and they will feel persecuted if you make fun of them.... Saying it isn't so doesn't change that the christian was persecuted regardless of their "majority" status.
But probably 90% of those ridiculing them are also Christians! They're not being ridiculed because they're Christian, they're being ridiculed because of the way they choose to practice their Christianity.

As I say, it's about certain sects, not Christianity in general.

uscitizen
08-17-2006, 10:49 AM
LOL. funny how that works isn't it ?
Then there are those pesky door to door Jehovas witnesses. You can't be nice to them or they will move in with ya.

Damocles
08-17-2006, 10:50 AM
LOL. funny how that works isn't it ?
Then there are those pesky door to door Jehovas witnesses. You can't be nice to them or they will move in with ya.
That and not standing up for the Flag and all, they must be truly evil...

uscitizen
08-17-2006, 10:54 AM
Well they will let their child die before letting him get a blood transfusion. to me that is evil.

Damocles
08-17-2006, 10:56 AM
Well they will let their child die before letting him get a blood transfusion. to me that is evil.
Agree... That and the whole no gifts thing. I had a friend and man did he feel left out. He left that religion as soon as he could walk away!