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LadyT
08-11-2006, 07:05 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/11/terror.plot/index.html

"LONDON, England (CNN) -- A British intelligence official has told CNN that the original information about a plot to down commercial jetliners in mid-Atlantic with explosives came from a tip from the Muslim community in Britain."

See how working with people and fostering good relations with the muslim community can payoff. I've said it time and time again, and I'll say it again:

The war on terror is a war of information. We will not succeed by using excessive and deadly military force. INFORMATION alone will make us victorious.

AnyOldIron
08-11-2006, 07:08 AM
It is only possible to defeat terrorism by undermining it and isolating it from the community it claims to represent. That way it just withers and dies.

Using brutality in return only feeds it.

This is how the PIRA was defeated...

toby
08-11-2006, 07:12 AM
One good muslim out of a billion. LOL Give him a medal!

LadyT
08-11-2006, 07:37 AM
One good muslim out of a billion. LOL Give him a medal!


for potentially saving the lives of thousands? Yes. I'd say that deserves a medal.

LadyT
08-11-2006, 07:39 AM
"Muslims" Not "Muslim's" (grammer mistakes in the title suck)

Damocles
08-11-2006, 07:49 AM
"Muslims" Not "Muslim's" (grammer mistakes in the title suck)
I'll fix that for you...

LadyT
08-11-2006, 07:55 AM
danke!

toby
08-11-2006, 08:22 AM
The Brits kissed Muslim ass, and what do they get? Death and destruction. Time to admit that.

LadyT
08-11-2006, 08:25 AM
The Brits kissed Muslim ass, and what do they get? Death and destruction. Time to admit that.

Actually, they got cooperation and more information on existing terror cells. And its a good thing we're on good terms with Pakistan. They too can help weed out and destroy these cells that exist within their country.

Damocles
08-11-2006, 08:26 AM
From what I hear Pakistan particularly played a key role in catching these bastards..

toby
08-11-2006, 08:29 AM
And in the lastest incident? All home grown Muslims seeking to kill innocent people! And still they say it has nothing to do with religion!

Damocles
08-11-2006, 08:30 AM
And in the lastest incident? All home grown Muslims seeking to kill innocent people! And still they say it has nothing to do with religion!
The latest that I heard is that only two of them were "homegrown" the rest were immigrants. All grew up without ever facing the poverty that is so often blamed though...

LadyT
08-11-2006, 08:37 AM
From what I hear Pakistan particularly played a key role in catching these bastards..

shocker. Good international relations and flow of information can stop terrorists. Who knew?


.......oh wait I do! LIBERALS

Jarod
08-11-2006, 08:39 AM
The point is that you become a racist when you assume all muslams are bad.

Damocles
08-11-2006, 08:39 AM
shocker. Good international relations and flow of information can stop terrorists. Who knew?


.......oh wait I do! LIBERALS
Bush's administration also has good relations with this government there, LadyT. It appears that Bush also seemed to know beforehand.

Damocles
08-11-2006, 08:40 AM
The point is that you become a racist when you assume all muslams are bad.
Muslim is not a race. You become a bigot, but not necessarily racist if you believe all muslims are bad.

toby
08-11-2006, 08:41 AM
Most of these Muslims are 2nd generation.

Jarod
08-11-2006, 08:41 AM
Muslim is not a race. You become a bigot, but not necessarily racist if you believe all muslims are bad.



Thanks for the correction. You are right.

uscitizen
08-11-2006, 08:42 AM
I heard on PBS that Bush had known about this for a while. Could that explain the apparent rapid response ?

LadyT
08-11-2006, 08:42 AM
Bush's administration also has good relations with this government there, LadyT. It appears that Bush also seemed to know beforehand.

I know he does. I'm merely pointing out that it doesn't take an Army (IDF/US) to combat terrorism as a lot of misinformed cons (Dixie) tend to believe. Information is the most powerful tool we have.

Cypress
08-11-2006, 08:42 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/11/terror.plot/index.html

"LONDON, England (CNN) -- A British intelligence official has told CNN that the original information about a plot to down commercial jetliners in mid-Atlantic with explosives came from a tip from the Muslim community in Britain."

See how working with people and fostering good relations with the muslim community can payoff. I've said it time and time again, and I'll say it again:

The war on terror is a war of information. We will not succeed by using excessive and deadly military force. INFORMATION alone will make us victorious.


this is a war of ideology, not of military strenght. We can't possibly win it without the cooperation of sane and moderate muslims.

LadyT
08-11-2006, 08:43 AM
I didn't realize he knew about this a while ago. If that's the case, why did he still allow liquids in carryon's if there was an imminent threat?

Cypress
08-11-2006, 08:44 AM
this is a war of ideology, not of military strenght. We can't possibly win it without the cooperation of sane and moderate muslims.

this is why I find it Disheartening when I turn on rightwing talk radio, and here them talking about this being a "war on Islam". Glenn beck was ranting about it last night.

Jarod
08-11-2006, 08:45 AM
So when you assume because someone is Muslam they are a terrorist you are an ignorant bigot who is failing to use all available resources to fight terrorism. You are also promoting one of the sterotypes about westerners that promotes terrorism.

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-11-2006, 08:46 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/11/terror.plot/index.html

"LONDON, England (CNN) -- A British intelligence official has told CNN that the original information about a plot to down commercial jetliners in mid-Atlantic with explosives came from a tip from the Muslim community in Britain."

See how working with people and fostering good relations with the muslim community can payoff. I've said it time and time again, and I'll say it again:

The war on terror is a war of information. We will not succeed by using excessive and deadly military force. INFORMATION alone will make us victorious.


Actually, much of the intelligence surrounding this bunch, came from Pakistan. See how foolish it would have been to go stomping into Pakistan against their will, just to get Osama? Another 'tool' used to foil this plot, was the Brits "sneak and peek" provisions, similar to our Patriot Act. See how effective this tool was in averting another 9/11?

uscitizen
08-11-2006, 08:46 AM
Yepper Cypress the USA esp the right wing portion is playing the game just the way that the Islamic radicals want to make this a religious/racial war.

LadyT
08-11-2006, 08:47 AM
this is why I find it Disheartening when I turn on rightwing talk radio, and here them talking about this being a "war on Islam". Glenn beck was ranting about it last night.

Exactly, all they are doing is alienating members of hte community that would otherwise be willing to help us. Why do they hate America so much?;)

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-11-2006, 08:49 AM
So when you assume because someone is Muslam they are a terrorist you are an ignorant bigot who is failing to use all available resources to fight terrorism. You are also promoting one of the sterotypes about westerners that promotes terrorism.

No one has done that, idiot! Do you not realize, there are plenty of Muslims who are on our side in the War on Terror? Did you not understand, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan, are not supporting Hezbollah? Apparently, there are more Muslims who are willing to stand up to Islamofascism than democrats!

toby
08-11-2006, 08:53 AM
Despite the fact that all the terrorist are Muslim to many still are running around saying it has nothing at all to do with being a Muslim. Get a grip on reality.

uscitizen
08-11-2006, 08:54 AM
Actually, much of the intelligence surrounding this bunch, came from Pakistan. See how foolish it would have been to go stomping into Pakistan against their will, just to get Osama? Another 'tool' used to foil this plot, was the Brits "sneak and peek" provisions, similar to our Patriot Act. See how effective this tool was in averting another 9/11?

And if we had not invaded Iraq, could we not have benefitted some from their intelligence as well ? Whassa difference ?

Cypress
08-11-2006, 08:54 AM
No one has done that, idiot! Do you not realize, there are plenty of Muslims who are on our side in the War on Terror? Did you not understand, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan, are not supporting Hezbollah? Apparently, there are more Muslims who are willing to stand up to Islamofascism than democrats!

Israel's tactics, and your president's foreign policy has now placed the majority of sunni arab citizens squarely on the side of shia Hezbollah.

Jarod
08-11-2006, 08:56 AM
No one has done that, idiot! Do you not realize, there are plenty of Muslims who are on our side in the War on Terror? Did you not understand, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan, are not supporting Hezbollah? Apparently, there are more Muslims who are willing to stand up to Islamofascism than democrats!

Please note Toby's posts earlier in this thread before you claim "no one has done that"!

Damocles
08-11-2006, 08:56 AM
I heard on PBS that Bush had known about this for a while. Could that explain the apparent rapid response ?
The rapid response happened when they began purchasing tickets for test runs... Before that they gathered as much as they could about these people. Wisely they waited until they could get as many as possible in one swoop...

Jarod
08-11-2006, 08:57 AM
And if we had not invaded Iraq, could we not have benefitted some from their intelligence as well ? Whassa difference ?

I was just going to say, imagine the intelegence we could have gotten from the muslim community in Iraq had we not invaded them!

Cypress
08-11-2006, 08:57 AM
Please note Toby's posts earlier in this thread before you claim "no one has done that"!

Just turn on rightwing talk radio any day of the week.

Callers are constantly saying shit like, nuking the middle east, turning it into a parking lot, and how islam is an "evil" religion.

uscitizen
08-11-2006, 09:00 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/10/AR2006081001654_pf.html

It all began with a tip: In the aftermath of the July 7, 2005, suicide bombings on London's transit system, British authorities received a call from a worried member of the Muslim community, reporting general suspicions about an acquaintance.

From that vague but vital piece of information, according to a senior European intelligence official, British authorities opened the investigation into what they said turned out to be a well-coordinated and long-planned plot to bomb multiple transatlantic flights heading toward the United States -- an assault designed to rival the scope and lethality of the Sept. 11, 2001, hijackings.

By late 2005, the probe had expanded to involve several hundred investigators on three continents. They kept dozens of suspects under close surveillance for months, even as some of the plotters traveled between Britain and Pakistan to raise money, find recruits and refine their scheme, according to interviews with U.S. and European counterterrorism officials.

LadyT
08-11-2006, 09:00 AM
The rapid response happened when they began purchasing tickets for test runs... Before that they gathered as much as they could about these people. Wisely they waited until they could get as many as possible in one swoop...

Which was pretty smart I think. Get as many as you can with as much evidence as you can. However, allowing liquids on planes if you know what they are planning to do isn't smart in my opinion. Am I being unreasonable? Secondly, I think if someone drinks the liquid before getting on, then it should be okay to let them fly. I love having a cup of coffee before lift off.

LadyT
08-11-2006, 09:01 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/10/AR2006081001654_pf.html

By late 2005, the probe had expanded to involve several hundred investigators on three continents. They kept dozens of suspects under close surveillance for months, even as some of the plotters traveled between Britain and Pakistan to raise money, find recruits and refine their scheme, according to interviews with U.S. and European counterterrorism officials.

bravo if its true.

toby
08-11-2006, 09:03 AM
I didn't say all Muslims are terrorist. But most terrorist are Muslim.

Damocles
08-11-2006, 09:06 AM
Which was pretty smart I think. Get as many as you can with as much evidence as you can. However, allowing liquids on planes if you know what they are planning to do isn't smart in my opinion. Am I being unreasonable? Secondly, I think if someone drinks the liquid before getting on, then it should be okay to let them fly. I love having a cup of coffee before lift off.
They had special containers that allowed them to drink from the top, but still had the explosives in the bottom...

They would have tipped them off if they stopped allowing liquids too early. They knew who they were and were able to keep close watch on them.

toby
08-11-2006, 09:06 AM
I just dispute the orginal post. Britian worked with the Muslim community and what did they get? More terrroist.

LadyT
08-11-2006, 09:08 AM
I just dispute the orginal post. Britian worked with the Muslim community and what did they get? More terrroist.

so you think Britain shouldn't have worked with the community?

Damocles
08-11-2006, 09:09 AM
I just dispute the orginal post. Britian worked with the Muslim community and what did they get? More terrroist.
Had they not worked with them they would have had more terrorists and no informers. Planes would be raining from the sky as we type...

toby
08-11-2006, 09:15 AM
I didn't say that. They should work with the community, but they should kick the hate mongers out of the country and not allow them to dictate the agenda. To much worry about how the muslims will feel and not enought concern of the hate they preach.

toby
08-11-2006, 09:16 AM
Work with the 2 or 3 rational Muslims they can find. LOL

toby
08-11-2006, 09:20 AM
The post is headlined that Muslim save the day...........completely ignoring the fact that it was Muslims who were trying to blow up airliners!

LadyT
08-11-2006, 09:23 AM
toby you are hopeless.

AnyOldIron
08-11-2006, 09:25 AM
toby you are hopeless.

I think the word you are looking for is retarded...

LadyT
08-11-2006, 09:27 AM
toby you are hopeless.

I think the word you are looking for is retarded...

:clink:

toby
08-11-2006, 09:27 AM
How so Lady? Were the terrorist Muslim or not?

I will give the intel services the same tip. Chech out any Mosque in the world and you will find some terrorist! LOL

toby
08-11-2006, 09:28 AM
Muslims save the day............my ass!

LadyT
08-11-2006, 09:34 AM
I've never denied that the would-be terrorists were muslim.

AnyOldIron
08-11-2006, 09:34 AM
Chech out any Mosque in the world and you will find some terrorist! LOL

Any Mosque? You are a little bigot aren't you....

You are asserting that all Muslims are terrorists... By natural extension of the (cough) logic you are using, all Christians are brain-dead morons, because Bush is a christian and a brain-dead moron...

(For those interested, this is an example of non-sequiter logic, the conclusion isn't reached from the premises..)

Damocles
08-11-2006, 09:38 AM
Chech out any Mosque in the world and you will find some terrorist! LOL

Any Mosque? You are a little bigot aren't you....

You are asserting that all Muslims are terrorists... By natural extension of the (cough) logic you are using, all Christians are brain-dead morons, because Bush is a christian and a brain-dead moron...

(For those interested, this is an example of non-sequiter logic, the conclusion isn't reached from the premises..)
Hey! All Indians walk in single file because I saw a couple the other day doing that... This means that all Muslims are informers because of the few who told on these terrorists!

;)

toby
08-11-2006, 09:43 AM
No Any, you jump to conclusions not in evidence. Nowhere did I say all Muslims are terrorist. In fact I said nothing like that. But I did say that most terrorist are Muslim. That is not the same thing. Only a fool would confuse the two statements............So what are you?

uscitizen
08-11-2006, 09:43 AM
By the same logic all people from Alabama are assholes because of Dixie's example ? And morons from wherever Toby is from ?

AnyOldIron
08-11-2006, 09:57 AM
Any, you jump to conclusions not in evidence. Nowhere did I say all Muslims are terrorist. In fact I said nothing like that. But I did say that most terrorist are Muslim. That is not the same thing. Only a fool would confuse the two statements............So what are you?

Hey My-Little-Bigot. You stated that terrorists are found in every Mosque.

Your assertion that most terrorists are Muslim is arse. Muslim terrorists are Muslim.

The IRA and ETA are Catholic, Shining Path are atheists.

You are a moron.

AnyOldIron
08-11-2006, 09:59 AM
By the same logic all people from Alabama are assholes because of Dixie's example ? And morons from wherever Toby is from ?

Yes, it is non-sequiter or inductive logic....

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-11-2006, 10:00 AM
And if we had not invaded Iraq, could we not have benefitted some from their intelligence as well ? Whassa difference ?


From Iraqi intelligence? Controlled by Saddam, Uday, and Qusay Hussein? You honestly think they would have assisted us in rounding up Zarqawi and the alQaeda element they denied were even in their country? What the fuck do you smoke, anyway? I want some of it!

OrnotBitwise
08-11-2006, 10:03 AM
It is only possible to defeat terrorism by undermining it and isolating it from the community it claims to represent. That way it just withers and dies.

Using brutality in return only feeds it.

This is how the PIRA was defeated...Has someone accused you of promoting appeasement yet? Don't worry: they will.

toby
08-11-2006, 10:05 AM
I am talking about current terrorist Any, not the past. Yes most international terrorist are Muslim and I said a Mosque is a good place to look for them, not that all mosque have terrorist. Try an be rational for a change. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

OrnotBitwise
08-11-2006, 10:07 AM
Despite the fact that all the terrorist are Muslim to many still are running around saying it has nothing at all to do with being a Muslim. Get a grip on reality.Ladies and gentlemen, we have our first contestant of the day in the Inadvertently Comic Verbal Flatulence division.

toby
08-11-2006, 10:15 AM
That is stupid Ornot. Do you have something rational to say? Do you deny that Muslims are the ones who attacked Us on 9/11, that Muslims are the ones who ploted the attacks on the transit system in London on 7/7, that Muslims are the ones who planned these latest attacks on airlines? I won't even go into all the terrorist attacks world wide. Just what about these?

toby
08-11-2006, 10:16 AM
Being Muslim has nothing to do with all these terrorist attacks? Is that what you believe?

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 10:39 AM
I heard on PBS that Bush had known about this for a while. Could that explain the apparent rapid response ?


I'd be more inclined to go with the fact that on Tuesday his "pro-war" Democrat Senator took a beating in the primaries and he needed to assure America that "we are kicking ass and taking names".

Immie

toby
08-11-2006, 10:41 AM
If that were true Immie the plot would have come out sooner to help Lieberman! LOL

toby
08-11-2006, 10:42 AM
They wouldn't have waited till after the primary! You have to do better than than that lame excuse.

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 11:11 AM
If that were true Immie the plot would have come out sooner to help Lieberman! LOL

I don't think so. I think they expected him to win. Afterall, a well respected incumbent never loses. Well, not before last Tuesday that is. If he had not lost we would not know about this threat today. At least I highly doubt we would.

Immie

toby
08-11-2006, 11:12 AM
No nothing to do with Muslims>>>>

Umir Hussain, 24, London E14
Muhammed Usman Saddique, 24, London E17
Waheed Zaman, 22, London E17
Assan Abdullah Khan, 22, London E17
Waseem Kayani, 28, High Wycombe
Waheed Arafat Khan, 24, London E17
Cossor Ali, 24, London E17
Tayib Rauf, 21, Birmingham
Ibrahim Savant, 26, London E17
Osman Adam Khatib, 20, London E17
Shamin Mohammed Uddin, 36, Stoke Newington
Amin Asmin Tariq, 23, London E17
Shazad Khuram Ali, 27, High Wycombe
Tanvir Hussain, 24, London E10
Umar Islam, 28, (born Brian Young) High Wycombe
Assad Sarwar, 25, High Wycombe
Abdullah Ali, 26, London E17
Abdul Muneem Patel, 17, London E5
Nabeel Hussain, 21, Waltham Forest

toby
08-11-2006, 11:14 AM
That is pretty sad if you believe that Immie. You think the UK is in the hands of someone who wants a Senator of a small state of no importance to have some big support? LOL I though you were smarter than that. Guess I was wrong.

Jarod
08-11-2006, 11:18 AM
I don't think so. I think they expected him to win. Afterall, a well respected incumbent never loses. Well, not before last Tuesday that is. If he had not lost we would not know about this threat today. At least I highly doubt we would.

Immie

I belive we would know about it, but it would not be so hyped. This plot would never have worked anyway. I saw a pilot/bomb expert on the televison last night who said this type of bomb would not have been strong enough to bring a jumbojet down!

toby
08-11-2006, 11:23 AM
The ego of the left. to think the UK would stage such an event to discredit a democratic primary race in a small nothing state. LOL

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 11:24 AM
That is pretty sad if you believe that Immie. You think the UK is in the hands of someone who wants a Senator of a small state of no importance to have some big support? LOL I though you were smarter than that. Guess I was wrong.

As a matter of fact, they are. They are in Bush's back pocket.

Immie

toby
08-11-2006, 11:27 AM
And you think Bush is so worried about the dem primary in Conn that he whips out this fake plot to blow up airlines? Why didn't he use it before the vote?

Damocles
08-11-2006, 11:34 AM
I belive we would know about it, but it would not be so hyped. This plot would never have worked anyway. I saw a pilot/bomb expert on the televison last night who said this type of bomb would not have been strong enough to bring a jumbojet down!
That is why they bought tickets to travel together. The bomb expert made the judgement on counting on there only being one...

toby
08-11-2006, 11:39 AM
So a little bomb on a plane is okay? It won't hurt a bit! LOL

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-11-2006, 11:46 AM
Immie, I have literally watched you transform from a fairly reasonable-minded conservative, to an absolutely insane conspiracy theory wacko lefty, in just a few short years. At first, you would take a modest approach at outrageous reports, you'd reserve judgement with the nuts on the left, and try to maintain a moderate position... then you gradually started inching your way to the left, mostly on the war, and on Bush... Now, you've completely sold your soul to Michael Moore, it appears. Sad... Really sad!

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 11:54 AM
Immie, I have literally watched you transform from a fairly reasonable-minded conservative, to an absolutely insane conspiracy theory wacko lefty, in just a few short years. At first, you would take a modest approach at outrageous reports, you'd reserve judgement with the nuts on the left, and try to maintain a moderate position... then you gradually started inching your way to the left, mostly on the war, and on Bush... Now, you've completely sold your soul to Michael Moore, it appears. Sad... Really sad!

Is that the first post you have ever made in your life without calling someone a name? I will take your assessment of me with a grain of salt. I also appreciate what you have said and in some ways I agree with you.

It is true that I have lost complete confidence in our government. I view them with full and utter suspicion. I feel that they are using us.

If that is the way that Michael Moore looks at government than I would have to say you are correct. I have never watched a Michael Moore movie, read a book written by him (if he can write) or even seen him on tv.

But, I do not believe that the Bush Admin is worthy of a damned bit of respect. I do not believe that they are above manipulating this so-called terrorist threat for their own purposes.

It may be sad to you, but what is even sadder to me is that you continue to follow them without even questioning their integrity. You follow them like sheep follow a sheppard without even a hint of being your own person. Until recently I respected your opinion but now it is evident that you do not think for yourself. You allow the Sean Hannitys of the world to do your thinking for you.

Question Authority.

Immie

toby
08-11-2006, 12:14 PM
Immie do you think that Bush controls the UK goverment?

Jarod
08-11-2006, 01:00 PM
That is why they bought tickets to travel together. The bomb expert made the judgement on counting on there only being one...


No, he was achually talking about the possability of there being two bombs. But from my understanding the two terrorists on the plane planed to bring the componants of one bomb. Once those componants were brought together they would make a single bomb.

Jarod
08-11-2006, 01:00 PM
So a little bomb on a plane is okay? It won't hurt a bit! LOL

Not a single person came close to saying that you idiot!

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 01:04 PM
Immie do you think that Bush controls the UK goverment?

That would depend on what you mean by control. Is he the "Prime Minister" no.

However, I think he has a hell of a lot of influence over what they are doing in regards to this war. It is like this. Let's say you were caught cheating on your wife by your wife's best friend. The best friend goes to your wife and says, "I saw Toby coming out of a hotel room with a fine looking blond. He was still zipping his pants and she was straightening out her blouse. The nerve of him." You get wind of this and go to your best friend and ask him to lie for you because you can't afford the alimony payments and of course you know his dirty little secrets. He lies for you because you have dirt on him and well, everything comes out just fine. Your wife believes you again and you avoid the alimony payments.

Okay, I guess this is a bit far fetched. What woman would marry Toby? For that, what woman would cheat with him? ;) But anyway you get the picture.

Immie

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-11-2006, 05:47 PM
That would depend on what you mean by control. Is he the "Prime Minister" no.

However, I think he has a hell of a lot of influence over what they are doing in regards to this war. It is like this. Let's say you were caught cheating on your wife by your wife's best friend. The best friend goes to your wife and says, "I saw Toby coming out of a hotel room with a fine looking blond. He was still zipping his pants and she was straightening out her blouse. The nerve of him." You get wind of this and go to your best friend and ask him to lie for you because you can't afford the alimony payments and of course you know his dirty little secrets. He lies for you because you have dirt on him and well, everything comes out just fine. Your wife believes you again and you avoid the alimony payments.

Okay, I guess this is a bit far fetched. What woman would marry Toby? For that, what woman would cheat with him? ;) But anyway you get the picture.

Immie

There's no reason for you to bring your personal crisis into this conversation, Immie! Jeesh!

It's like this... We are facing a threat comparable to, or surpassing the threat we faced in Hitler and Nazism. It is more dangerous to us than the threat of the Cold War was, and has already claimed more innocent civilian American life, than any conflict since the Civil War.

Tony Blair and George Bush know and understand the threat, and they understand what leaders have to do in the face of that threat. The British ran Winston Churchill out of office over WWII, and conspiracy theories about FDR knowingly allowing the attacks on Pearl Harbor, exist to this day. Leaders have a tough row to hoe. It's not easy to face the challenge of leading with conviction in the face of adversity, but both men have done so.

Immie, I realize, in you venture off into liberal lala-land, you've become indoctrinated with the beliefs that this War on Terror thing is a myth. At best, you think it's some isolated group of nuts we can't seem to catch, and we are just pissing off the whole world doing a bunch of idiotic stuff that doesn't even make sense to you... I get that, Immie! I understand that you don't comprehend reality anymore, and that is terribly sad to see, as someone who once recognized your good judgement and integrity.

The Enemy is Radical Islamic Fascism! It's not something Bush made up, it's not something that is a figment of Tony Blair's imagination, it's a real and legitimate threat to our way of life. Blair understands, for now, the Islamofascists want the middle east... next it will be Europe and Britain, and eventually the world. The Muslim faith is spread across the globe, and these radicals intend to convert every one of them to their cause. We can't win a war with 7 billion fanatics who want us dead, Immie.

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 05:50 PM
I realize, in you venture off into liberal lala-land, you've become indoctrinated with the beliefs that this War on Terror thing is a myth. At best, you think it's some isolated group of nuts we can't seem to catch,

Have you ever once seen me claim such bullshit?

Immie

BRUTALITOPS
08-11-2006, 05:56 PM
blah blah blah muslim saved us.. blah blah blah



saved us from 24 other psycho muslims.

OrnotBitwise
08-11-2006, 05:58 PM
saved us from 24 other psycho muslims.I do wonder. What proportion, approximately, of the Muslim population do you think are psycho terrorists?

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 05:59 PM
You are way off Dixie.

My problem with the Bush Admin has nothing at all to do with the war. I have my issues with the war. I completely believe that everyone in the Bush Admin had their heads up each other's asses as they were planning this war and that includes Colin Powell a man that I very much respect. Not a one of them could fight there way out of a paper bag with a damned machete let alone a bazooka.

My problem with the Bush Admin is that they have lost every ounce of integrity and credibility. They have torn the U.S. Constitution to fucking shreds. They have destroyed American goodwill throughout the world. The Bush Admin has put their own greed far ahead of the good of the country. But worst of all is what they have done to the foundation of this great country... the U.S. Constitution.

The Bush Administration does not deserve an inkling of respect from the American people.

Immie

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-11-2006, 06:01 PM
[QUOTE=Dixie;6322]I realize, in you venture off into liberal lala-land, you've become indoctrinated with the beliefs that this War on Terror thing is a myth. At best, you think it's some isolated group of nuts we can't seem to catch, [QUOTE]

Have you ever once seen me claim such bullshit?

Immie



No, I just figured you had, since you seem to have lost your mind in other areas lately. I'm glad to hear you don't think like some of the nuts who believe Bush and the government pulled off 9/11. Of course, you are still only in the early stages of the disease...

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-11-2006, 06:05 PM
Have you ever once seen me claim such bullshit?

Immie

I do not believe that they are above manipulating this so-called terrorist threat for their own purposes.
-Immie

===========================

so-called terrorist threat? Was this just a slip of the tongue in a moment of haste? It sounds to me like you might be among the tin foil hat crowd... yes, I think the disease has advanced and you weren't even aware of it. Poor Immie.

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 06:08 PM
It's like this... We are facing a threat comparable to, or surpassing the threat we faced in Hitler and Nazism. It is more dangerous to us than the threat of the Cold War was, and has already claimed more innocent civilian American life, than any conflict since the Civil War.


Really? And your buddy George told you about this threat? Did he use the words Mushroom Cloud? Did he tell you the threat level was Red? Did he tell you that Osama bin Ladin was coming to get you personally? Did he make you wet your pants in fear?

Did he tell you that giving up your constitutional freedoms made you a Patriotic American and that it is people like you who love America? Did he tell you that he AND ONLY HE, can protect you from all those evil muslims?

It is a pretty tall order for OBL to fill to be as big of a threat as Adolf Hitler. There is no doubt that fanatical muslims are a threat to us. We should be fighting them. But not with our soldiers bunched up like sheep in a pen with targets painted on their backs.


Immie

Damocles
08-11-2006, 06:09 PM
No, he was achually talking about the possability of there being two bombs. But from my understanding the two terrorists on the plane planed to bring the componants of one bomb. Once those componants were brought together they would make a single bomb.
From what I heard the test run had three of them together with bottles from each. They would make one bomb from three bottles...

Damocles
08-11-2006, 06:10 PM
And I also heard from another expert who stated that they could easily make a bomb with only one of those that could take down a plane. Competing experts...

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 06:15 PM
I do not believe that they are above manipulating this so-called terrorist threat for their own purposes.
-Immie

===========================

so-called terrorist threat? Was this just a slip of the tongue in a moment of haste? It sounds to me like you might be among the tin foil hat crowd... yes, I think the disease has advanced and you weren't even aware of it. Poor Immie.


I most certainly believe that the Bush Admin would have manipulated the threat for their own purposes. Not planned or instituted the threat as you seem to be inferring here, but simply blowing an issue out of proportion.

Funny how this kind of shit only comes out when the Bush Admin takes a hit or needs a boost. Isn't it?

"Oh my! Those evil muslims are coming to get us. Run for the hills. You need me to protect you. I promise I will do this. Just give me a little bit more of your freedoms say let me put up cameras all around the country and monitor every single step you take. I promise I will only use it for the good of the country. I will never use it against you personally. Just let me do this and I will make you safer still."

How far are you, Dixie, going to trust them?

Immie

BRUTALITOPS
08-11-2006, 06:15 PM
I do wonder. What proportion, approximately, of the Muslim population do you think are psycho terrorists?

A large amount.

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 06:19 PM
"Oh my! Those evil muslims are coming to get us. Run for the hills. You need me to protect you. I promise I will do this. Just give me a little bit more of your freedoms say let me put up cameras all around the country and monitor every single step you take. I promise I will only use it for the good of the country. I will never use it against you personally. Just let me do this and I will make you safer still."

These are the issues that I have against the administration. You say that this is hypothetical bullshit? Really? Is it? Need I remind you of The USA Patriot Act? How about the NSA spying scandal? Have you volunteered to let him tap your phones? After all, you are a red blooded patriotic American that would blow his private parts just to make him happy every hour on the hour.

Immie

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-11-2006, 06:32 PM
How far are you, Dixie, going to trust them?

Immie, let me explain something to you... If we ever reach a point in this country, where people all have the distrusting attitude you have, we can hang it up. It's over for us. It simply doesn't matter who we elect or what they say or do anyway, because we are not going to ever be able to trust them, and anarchy will erupt. Our very system of government is based on people trusting representation, and if you have lost this, you can't make valid determinations and choices.

It's important to be vigilant in watching the representatives, making certain they are held accountable for wrong-doing, and having oversight in the way things are done, that's prudent, that's legitimate. But at some point, it is important that we elect people we trust, because we simply have to trust government to protect and defend us, it's what we have the government for!

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 06:40 PM
How far are you, Dixie, going to trust them?

Immie, let me explain something to you... If we ever reach a point in this country, where people all have the distrusting attitude you have, we can hang it up. It's over for us. It simply doesn't matter who we elect or what they say or do anyway, because we are not going to ever be able to trust them, and anarchy will erupt. Our very system of government is based on people trusting representation, and if you have lost this, you can't make valid determinations and choices.

It's important to be vigilant in watching the representatives, making certain they are held accountable for wrong-doing, and having oversight in the way things are done, that's prudent, that's legitimate. But at some point, it is important that we elect people we trust, because we simply have to trust government to protect and defend us, it's what we have the government for!

I don't disagree with this, but unfortunately President Bush as squandered the trust we put in him.

Well, maybe not the trust you put in him because it is obvious that you worship him and would bow down before him and service him at the subtlist hint of desire.

Immie

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-11-2006, 06:49 PM
Need I remind you of The USA Patriot Act? How about the NSA spying scandal? Have you volunteered to let him tap your phones?

Need I remind you that a plot to bring down 10-20 trans-Atlantic commercial airliners was foiled, largely due to the Patriot Act, NSA, and other provisions put into place by the US, as well as the UK, to enable them to do the same?

It's not a fucking coincidental accident that we haven't been struck again by terrorists, Immie! It's because we now have the essential tools needed to find these people while they hide and plot amongst us, where we didn't have that capacity before. You are so paranoid that Bush is going to find out about the affair you're having with your wife's best friend or whatever, and have such a total lack of trust in the people we elected to govern, that you can't comprehend giving them the leverage to capture terrorists and foil their plots.

I don't like giving up certain freedoms, I don't enjoy being patted down at the airport, I wish I didn't have to allow these incursions on my privacy, but honestly, if that is what our government has to do to protect us from the threat of what we witnessed on 9/11, I can live with it for a while.

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-11-2006, 06:59 PM
unfortunately President Bush as squandered the trust we put in him.

I don't understand what you mean. I know that the left, who are not accustomed to being without power, have done everything they can think of to undermine him with a constant and continuing barrage of criticisms that he is woefully inadequate to answer. One thing you can say for Bush, he tells you what he intends to do, and then he does it, he doesn't back down or flip-flop around on his convictions, he says what he means and means what he says. I don't see where he has "squandered his trust" at all. I see where he has been completely courageous in the face of immense adversity and criticism, and walked through the fire. He could have folded, he could have given up and walked away from Iraq, told the liberals what they wanted to hear... he could've admitted to all he was accused of... would you think more of him for that? Sure, it would have been easy for him to have remained popular, it would have been easy for him to have capitulated to the lefties on every front, with his domestic capitulation to them, he could have been the most popular liberal republican president of all time, but he stood for what he believed was right, and still stands for it, and that takes courage and leadership.

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 07:04 PM
Need I remind you of The USA Patriot Act? How about the NSA spying scandal? Have you volunteered to let him tap your phones?

Need I remind you that a plot to bring down 10-20 trans-Atlantic commercial airliners was foiled, largely due to the Patriot Act, NSA, and other provisions put into place by the US, as well as the UK, to enable them to do the same?

It's not a fucking coincidental accident that we haven't been struck again by terrorists, Immie! It's because we now have the essential tools needed to find these people while they hide and plot amongst us, where we didn't have that capacity before. You are so paranoid that Bush is going to find out about the affair you're having with your wife's best friend or whatever, and have such a total lack of trust in the people we elected to govern, that you can't comprehend giving them the leverage to capture terrorists and foil their plots.

I don't like giving up certain freedoms, I don't enjoy being patted down at the airport, I wish I didn't have to allow these incursions on my privacy, but honestly, if that is what our government has to do to protect us from the threat of what we witnessed on 9/11, I can live with it for a while.

When I have full and undeniable proof of this plot I will be a little less untrusting. So far, it is nothing but accusations. Something I have always told Desh... accusations do not mean guilt. That is something that maybe you should think about.

Immie

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 07:13 PM
It's not a fucking coincidental accident that we haven't been struck again by terrorists, Immie! It's because we now have the essential tools needed to find these people while they hide and plot amongst us, where we didn't have that capacity before.

You know something? You may be right. Then again, how many "attacks" were thwarted before 9/11? How many threats were stopped before Bush took office that we did not know about? The only attacks we ever found out about pre-9/11 were the successsful ones such as World Trade Center bombing #1, the embassies and the U.S.S. Cole. How many others were stopped before they hit?

You are a fool if you believe that we are safer because of the USA Patriot Act. You are a fool if you believe that allowing the government to listen into your private conversations makes us any safer.



You are so paranoid that Bush is going to find out about the affair you're having with your wife's best friend or whatever, and have such a total lack of trust in the people we elected to govern, that you can't comprehend giving them the leverage to capture terrorists and foil their plots.

I see you have sunk to Toby's level. Making wild unsubstantiated claims. You just sunk to the scum of the site, Dixie. Congratulations.




I don't like giving up certain freedoms, I don't enjoy being patted down at the airport, I wish I didn't have to allow these incursions on my privacy, but honestly, if that is what our government has to do to protect us from the threat of what we witnessed on 9/11, I can live with it for a while.

Yes, and what will you say when you are the one they accuse of being a terrorist?

Immie

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-11-2006, 07:14 PM
When I have full and undeniable proof of this plot I will be a little less untrusting. So far, it is nothing but accusations. Something I have always told Desh... accusations do not mean guilt. That is something that maybe you should think about.

Immie, based on some of the stuff you've been espousing lately, you are just one Reuters story away from being as kooky as Desh. I'm telling you dude, it's time for some serious introspection.

This plot has been going on a while, it was infiltrated by Muslims on our side (those good Muslims uscitizen thinks we don't believe in) and the bust finally came down. Details are still being withheld because they have not captured all involved and the investigation continues. This is not just something Bush and Blair cooked up to detract from Lieberman's loss, in this day and age of media coverage, a conspiracy of that sort is virtually impossible to pull off. Use your brain!

alQaeda was clearly behind it, and you can bet that if they had been successful, Iran and the rest of the radical element would have followed it with a flurry of other terrorist actions to coincide... and I don't think that danger is over with yet, something big is going down and this wasn't all of it... that's my gut instinct.

Topspin
08-11-2006, 07:16 PM
And you have your head up your ass if you think the muslim community is doing enough.

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 07:17 PM
When I have full and undeniable proof of this plot I will be a little less untrusting. So far, it is nothing but accusations. Something I have always told Desh... accusations do not mean guilt. That is something that maybe you should think about.

Immie, based on some of the stuff you've been espousing lately, you are just one Reuters story away from being as kooky as Desh. I'm telling you dude, it's time for some serious introspection.

This plot has been going on a while, it was infiltrated by Muslims on our side (those good Muslims uscitizen thinks we don't believe in) and the bust finally came down. Details are still being withheld because they have not captured all involved and the investigation continues. This is not just something Bush and Blair cooked up to detract from Lieberman's loss, in this day and age of media coverage, a conspiracy of that sort is virtually impossible to pull off. Use your brain!

alQaeda was clearly behind it, and you can bet that if they had been successful, Iran and the rest of the radical element would have followed it with a flurry of other terrorist actions to coincide... and I don't think that danger is over with yet, something big is going down and this wasn't all of it... that's my gut instinct.

I trust your gut instinct about as much as I trust George W. Bush with my civil liberties. I will admit that I do trust your instincts more than I trust Dick Cheney with my civil liberties.

Again, you are starting to sound like Desh. "They have been accused. They are therefore guilty."

Welcome Desh.

Immie

NOVA
08-11-2006, 07:27 PM
Just as most of the 'tips' we get in Iraq come from Iraqis....the only difference is in the UK, the Muslim is slightly safer from discovery and retribution....
while in Iraq, the danger to a whistle blower in infinitly greater....
It was a brave and rightous thing to do in either case...

Immanuel
08-11-2006, 07:27 PM
How far are you, Dixie, going to trust them?

Immie, let me explain something to you... If we ever reach a point in this country, where people all have the distrusting attitude you have, we can hang it up. It's over for us. It simply doesn't matter who we elect or what they say or do anyway, because we are not going to ever be able to trust them, and anarchy will erupt. Our very system of government is based on people trusting representation, and if you have lost this, you can't make valid determinations and choices.



I'm going backwards a bit because I don't think I said this when I read this post. We do need to trust our government. It is sad that I don't believe we can do this anymore. I feel that we need to clean house in Washington. Power has corrupted this lot of leaders. We need a change because we do need to trust the people in Washington.

Unfortunately, I don't forsee this happening.

I fear America will collapse in our lifetimes (I think you are about my age) because our leaders in Washington are no longer deserving of our trust.

Immie

BRUTALITOPS
08-11-2006, 09:30 PM
A large amount.

For example:

7/7 bombings 'justified' say a quarter of British Muslims

ALMOST a quarter of British Muslims say the 7/7 bombings can be justified because of the Government's support for the war on terror, according to an opinion poll.

And nearly half of those polled, or 45 per cent, believe the 9/11 attacks on New York were a conspiracy between the United States and Israel.

A third of those questioned said they would rather live under Sharia law in the UK than British law.

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1145782006

Beefy
08-11-2006, 10:06 PM
I'm going backwards a bit because I don't think I said this when I read this post. We do need to trust our government. It is sad that I don't believe we can do this anymore. I feel that we need to clean house in Washington. Power has corrupted this lot of leaders. We need a change because we do need to trust the people in Washington.

Unfortunately, I don't forsee this happening.

I fear America will collapse in our lifetimes (I think you are about my age) because our leaders in Washington are no longer deserving of our trust.

Immie

America will not collapse in your lifetime or mine, or my 8 year ols neice's lifetime. But The last great century for the US was the 20th. By the end of the current century, the US will be akin to France or Germany now, if we aren't war torn.

The fact is, that wars are a part of humanity. We haven't been war torn since the Civil War, and we are getting complacent. We have forgotten what utter destruction does, because the only time we see it is when we turn on the TV and see it in other parts of the world. We can't appreciate it, thus we take it relatively lightly.

The global political climate is changing, we are funding possible future enemies through aid, trade, whatever, we are acting as though Manifest Destiny is still relevant, but through influence rather than aquisition, we are speading ourselves thin in the theatre's that matter most.

The next century will not be as prosperous as the last, and we may end up bearing the brunt of the warring like Europe and East Asia did last century.

But the way we are excecuting our foreign policy, our trade policy and out domestic big brother policy here and now, will come back to haunt us. We won't die, but we'll feel a lot of pain.

There will come a point when american people will not have the sense of complacency that we currently do, and it will come from agony and destruction.

Damocles
08-11-2006, 10:21 PM
Or... We elect a leader who has vision, who sets us on a course for a new future of riches. Creating a national goal that sets us all on the path toward continued domination of foreign markets by producing the next step in energy management.

Beefy
08-11-2006, 10:51 PM
Or... We elect a leader who has vision, who sets us on a course for a new future of riches. Creating a national goal that sets us all on the path toward continued domination of foreign markets by producing the next step in energy management.

Globalism precludes this from happening. Unfortunately, our foresight now isn't nearly as valuable as our foresight 30 and 40 years ago, as it takes about that long for the political and human elements to appreciate the necessity for change.

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-11-2006, 11:11 PM
America will not collapse in your lifetime or mine, or my 8 year ols neice's lifetime. But The last great century for the US was the 20th. By the end of the current century, the US will be akin to France or Germany now, if we aren't war torn.

The fact is, that wars are a part of humanity. We haven't been war torn since the Civil War, and we are getting complacent. We have forgotten what utter destruction does, because the only time we see it is when we turn on the TV and see it in other parts of the world. We can't appreciate it, thus we take it relatively lightly.

The global political climate is changing, we are funding possible future enemies through aid, trade, whatever, we are acting as though Manifest Destiny is still relevant, but through influence rather than aquisition, we are speading ourselves thin in the theatre's that matter most.

The next century will not be as prosperous as the last, and we may end up bearing the brunt of the warring like Europe and East Asia did last century.

But the way we are excecuting our foreign policy, our trade policy and out domestic big brother policy here and now, will come back to haunt us. We won't die, but we'll feel a lot of pain.

There will come a point when american people will not have the sense of complacency that we currently do, and it will come from agony and destruction.


Thank you Beefstradomus!

Beefy
08-11-2006, 11:16 PM
Thank you Beefstradomus!

You're welcome Dix.

Anyhting else?

AnyOldIron
08-12-2006, 03:19 AM
Everybody is getting well ahead of themselves.

It seems that everyone has convicted the 24 already, even though 2 have already been released.

Given the number of times that the British police have arrested / shot people on charges of terrorism in the past, to much hue and cry, only for it to be revealed that it was a mistake and the charges dropped.

It is normal practice not to assume guilt in the UK until it has been demonstrated.

BRUTALITOPS
08-12-2006, 05:08 AM
yeah, but i'm not in the uk. I think their guilty terrorist muslim scumbags.

AnyOldIron
08-12-2006, 05:49 AM
yeah, but i'm not in the uk. I think their guilty terrorist muslim scumbags.

That's because you don't understand justice but you are young and a little slow, so...

An accusation isn't guilt.

If I accuse you of sucking off Robdawg does that make you guilty of it?

BRUTALITOPS
08-12-2006, 06:13 AM
Look, I am not saying they don't deserve a trial. I am not saying that they are legally right now, guilty.

But what do you think the evidence supports?

Immanuel
08-12-2006, 06:34 AM
America will not collapse in your lifetime or mine, or my 8 year ols neice's lifetime. But The last great century for the US was the 20th. By the end of the current century, the US will be akin to France or Germany now, if we aren't war torn.

The fact is, that wars are a part of humanity. We haven't been war torn since the Civil War, and we are getting complacent. We have forgotten what utter destruction does, because the only time we see it is when we turn on the TV and see it in other parts of the world. We can't appreciate it, thus we take it relatively lightly.

The global political climate is changing, we are funding possible future enemies through aid, trade, whatever, we are acting as though Manifest Destiny is still relevant, but through influence rather than aquisition, we are speading ourselves thin in the theatre's that matter most.

The next century will not be as prosperous as the last, and we may end up bearing the brunt of the warring like Europe and East Asia did last century.

But the way we are excecuting our foreign policy, our trade policy and out domestic big brother policy here and now, will come back to haunt us. We won't die, but we'll feel a lot of pain.

There will come a point when american people will not have the sense of complacency that we currently do, and it will come from agony and destruction.

I can see America being divided into several different countries within our lifetimes. Not because of the war but because of what our politicians are doing to us. They are dividing us and conquering us. Or should I say they have conquered us. We have given them the reigns and let them run us off of a cliff.

America as we know is may not survive our lifetimes. We have our politicians to blame for this but when the end finally comes we will have no one to blame but ourselves because we allowed it to happen.

Immie

Immanuel
08-12-2006, 06:38 AM
Everybody is getting well ahead of themselves.

It seems that everyone has convicted the 24 already, even though 2 have already been released.

Given the number of times that the British police have arrested / shot people on charges of terrorism in the past, to much hue and cry, only for it to be revealed that it was a mistake and the charges dropped.

It is normal practice not to assume guilt in the UK until it has been demonstrated.

Everyone?

Do I need to go back and find my posts stating that this is 100% incorrect?

Isn't the scenario you mention about shooting a terrorist suspect exactly what happened to that person in London after the bombings? I don't remember the exact specifics of the case, but didn't your authorities kill an "arabic" man not long after the bombings and then later found out that he was not a terrorist? These are the reasons that we cannot allow the Bush hysteria to take hold of us here in America. They are telling us that eveyone is out to get us and without Bush we are doomed. God help us all!

Help me out Care, I know you remember this case.

Immie

Immanuel
08-12-2006, 06:43 AM
Look, I am not saying they don't deserve a trial. I am not saying that they are legally right now, guilty.

But what do you think the evidence supports?

Evidence has been known to lie before... well, not the evidence, but the interpretation of the evidence... then you also have to rely on the interpretor of the evidence.

So, just because the evidence points at these people as being terrorists, they must be given a fair hearing and they should be presumed innocent until the facts prove them otherwise.

Immie

Care4all
08-12-2006, 06:49 AM
Everyone?

Do I need to go back and find my posts stating that this is 100% incorrect?

Isn't the scenario you mention about shooting a terrorist suspect exactly what happened to that person in London after the bombings? I don't remember the exact specifics of the case, but didn't your authorities kill an "arabic" man not long after the bombings and then later found out that he was not a terrorist? These are the reasons that we cannot allow the Bush hysteria to take hold of us here in America. They are telling us that eveyone is out to get us and without Bush we are doomed. God help us all!

Help me out Care, I know you remember this case.

Immie

it was a man from Brazil, I believe immie...and they slaughtered him...by accident of course... :(

also, a mentally ill man was slaughtered by our air marshalls not long ago too, so the usa is guilty as hell when it comes to over reacting and killing innocent people...

Immanuel
08-12-2006, 06:53 AM
it was a man from Brazil, I believe immie...and they slaughtered him...by accident of course... :(

also, a mentally ill man was slaughtered by our air marshalls not long ago too, so the usa is guilty as hell when it comes to over reacting and killing innocent people...

That is right. There was an incident in Tampa with a mentally ill man that they gunned down because he was acting suspiciously. Who is next? A father chasing his two year old in an airport terminal?

Immie

Dixie - In Memoriam
08-12-2006, 07:06 AM
Arnold, go stick your head back in the sand and keep repeating what Mickey Moore told you to... There is no terrorist threat... there is NO terrorist threat!

The Brits, over the course of several months, and in cooperation with the US and Pakistani intelligence, infiltrated an alQaeda operation, and foiled a planned terror attack. You are free to remain in stunned disbelief, you can even concoct conspiracy theories about it, to keep from accepting the truth, it's entirely up to you. Most of us normal rational people, understand the system of jurisprudence, and realize there has to be charges brought and a trial heard, no one is suggesting we take these people out and shoot them in the head based on what we know now. That said, it seems a bit disingenuous to conclude this is much ado about nothing, or that there wasn't a terrorist plot being investigated. There is tangible evidence of this, regardless of who is released or who else they arrest.

BRUTALITOPS
08-12-2006, 07:07 AM
So, just because the evidence points at these people as being terrorists, they must be given a fair hearing and they should be presumed innocent until the facts prove them otherwise.

Immie

Which is what I said you idiotic prole!

Immanuel
08-13-2006, 10:23 AM
Which is what I said you idiotic prole!

I don't know with your question: "But what do you think the evidence supports?" and the prior post: "yeah, but i'm not in the uk. I think their guilty terrorist muslim scumbags." It sounds very much like you have already convicted them so why even bother giving them a trial.

You gave no indication at all that you believe these guys had a right to a fair trial let alone that you would give them the benefit of being considered innocent until proven guilty.

You said, "Look, I am not saying they don't deserve a trial. I am not saying that they are legally right now, guilty." The way I read this is sure give them a mock trial. We all know they are guilty as sin but give them a trial anyway. What do you think the evidence supports? "Legally right now, guilty". What the hell does that mean? Do you even understand what it means to be presumed innocent? By your own words you at presuming them to be guilty first. Maybe they should be presumed guilty and have to prove their innocence?

Immie

OrnotBitwise
08-13-2006, 12:15 PM
By your own words you at presuming them to be guilty first. Maybe they should be presumed guilty and have to prove their innocence?

ImmieThat would be in France.

We can't really know what conclusions the evidence supports. We don't know all of the evidence. We probably don't even know a tenth part of the full body of evidence.

BRUTALITOPS
08-13-2006, 12:47 PM
You said, "Look, I am not saying they don't deserve a trial. I am not saying that they are legally right now, guilty." The way I read this is sure give them a mock trial.


Well that's the way YOU read it you fucking idiot.

BRUTALITOPS
08-13-2006, 12:50 PM
That would be in France.

We can't really know what conclusions the evidence supports. We don't know all of the evidence. We probably don't even know a tenth part of the full body of evidence.

Did you sound like this with regards to karl rove and plame? Tom Delay?

Immanuel
08-13-2006, 06:08 PM
Well that's the way YOU read it you fucking idiot.

Get up on the wrong side of the bed, Jackass?

Immie

Brent
08-13-2006, 06:11 PM
Get up on the wrong side of the bed, Jackass?

Immie

In the spirit of correcting each other, Immanuel: "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39) ;)

Immanuel
08-13-2006, 06:13 PM
In the spirit of correcting each other, Immanuel: "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39) ;)

Suck a rock, Brent.

I turned my cheek the first attack, I was not turning the next cheek.

Immie

Brent
08-13-2006, 06:18 PM
Suck a rock, Brent.

And you say Grind woke up on the wrong side of the bed?

FUCK THE POLICE
08-13-2006, 08:53 PM
Arnold, go stick your head back in the sand and keep repeating what Mickey Moore told you to... There is no terrorist threat... there is NO terrorist threat!

The Brits, over the course of several months, and in cooperation with the US and Pakistani intelligence, infiltrated an alQaeda operation, and foiled a planned terror attack. You are free to remain in stunned disbelief, you can even concoct conspiracy theories about it, to keep from accepting the truth, it's entirely up to you. Most of us normal rational people, understand the system of jurisprudence, and realize there has to be charges brought and a trial heard, no one is suggesting we take these people out and shoot them in the head based on what we know now. That said, it seems a bit disingenuous to conclude this is much ado about nothing, or that there wasn't a terrorist plot being investigated. There is tangible evidence of this, regardless of who is released or who else they arrest.

Which is why we need to invade north korea, right?

AnyOldIron
08-14-2006, 02:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arnold, go stick your head back in the sand and keep repeating what Mickey Moore told you to... There is no terrorist threat... there is NO terrorist threat!

The Brits, over the course of several months, and in cooperation with the US and Pakistani intelligence, infiltrated an alQaeda operation, and foiled a planned terror attack.

Dixie, what I'm saying is that no-one has been convicted yet.

In Britain, we have jurisprudence that states you are innocent until convicted. We don't convict on accusation alone.

That might not be the case in Dixie's New America but it certainly is here.

Given Britain's recent history of arrests that later turned out to be mistaken identity / arrests on false pretenses it is premature to blow the trumpets...

Immanuel
08-14-2006, 06:14 AM
And you say Grind woke up on the wrong side of the bed?

Good point.

So suck a rock anyway. ;)

Immie

evince
08-14-2006, 06:25 AM
Too bad so many other countries hate us and the UK now.

Care4all
08-14-2006, 06:28 AM
unfortunately President Bush as squandered the trust we put in him.

I don't understand what you mean. I know that the left, who are not accustomed to being without power, have done everything they can think of to undermine him with a constant and continuing barrage of criticisms that he is woefully inadequate to answer. One thing you can say for Bush, he tells you what he intends to do, and then he does it, he doesn't back down or flip-flop around on his convictions, he says what he means and means what he says. I don't see where he has "squandered his trust" at all. I see where he has been completely courageous in the face of immense adversity and criticism, and walked through the fire. He could have folded, he could have given up and walked away from Iraq, told the liberals what they wanted to hear... he could've admitted to all he was accused of... would you think more of him for that? Sure, it would have been easy for him to have remained popular, it would have been easy for him to have capitulated to the lefties on every front, with his domestic capitulation to them, he could have been the most popular liberal republican president of all time, but he stood for what he believed was right, and still stands for it, and that takes courage and leadership.

What a crock of poop Dixie....

He's a Deciever in the biggest of ways...constantly!

Like when he signs a bill from congress with a big hoop dee dah, then immediately afterwords he issues a signing paper saying that he does not have to follow the Bill he just signed, LIKE the speech before Congress and us telling us before the resolution is signed that HE HAS NOT MADE UP HIS MIND YET ABOUT going to war with iraq, while the Downing Street minutes shows his lies and true intent.... yeah, he's a real man of honor and with ethics.... he says he will hold accountable and fire anyone involved in leaking the CIA status of valerie plame....instead he promotes them and keeps them around...like Cheney, who was the original leaker....He signs and says he agrees with the mccain torture bill and then he signs an executive paper saying he doesn't have to follow it...

He's a sneak....a weasle....

he is the biggest FLIP FLOPPER that ever existed in the history of mankind as far as I can see....a Deceiver.....

Hermes Thoth
02-22-2007, 06:27 PM
Actually, they got cooperation and more information on existing terror cells. And its a good thing we're on good terms with Pakistan. They too can help weed out and destroy these cells that exist within their country.

Yes. and don't forget the terror cells they got. doo doo head!

Damocles
02-23-2007, 12:06 AM
Yes. and don't forget the terror cells they got. doo doo head!
Doo doo head? Is that a technical term?

LadyT
02-23-2007, 06:16 AM
Yes. and don't forget the terror cells they got. doo doo head!

Wow. What a great and insightful argument "you got". Shove it out your ass.

Hermes Thoth
03-24-2007, 07:43 AM
The point is that you become a racist when you assume all muslams are bad.

No. The point is you become dead when you trust people who, for the most part, want to take over your society with radical islam. Your political correctness stops you from perceiving and or acting upon the truth.

uscitizen
03-24-2007, 09:03 PM
No. The point is you become dead when you trust people who, for the most part, want to take over your society with radical islam. Your political correctness stops you from perceiving and or acting upon the truth.

Like the Neocons ?

Are we talking about the People or the ideology ?
All americans are not Neos nor do all support them, nor do all Muslims support OBL and his ilk. Do all Christians support all christians and kill abortion docotors and blow up clinics and such ? Do all gun owners kill people with then ? Are all people that live in mobile homes theieing trash ?
Are all Bmw owners pricks ? umm bad example there :)


You are using an overly broad brush there AHZ.

Hermes Thoth
03-25-2007, 11:31 AM
Like the Neocons ?

Are we talking about the People or the ideology ?
All americans are not Neos nor do all support them, nor do all Muslims support OBL and his ilk. Do all Christians support all christians and kill abortion docotors and blow up clinics and such ? Do all gun owners kill people with then ? Are all people that live in mobile homes theieing trash ?
Are all Bmw owners pricks ? umm bad example there :)


You are using an overly broad brush there AHZ.

No. It's not a broad brush. The people believe the ideology. violent jihad is a more core aspect of islam than is abortion bombing in christianity. That's just the truth of the matter. It's not an apt analogy. Jihad is a real threat to all non-muslims. It's not "comparable to the modern christian outlook".

Have you seen the articles where muslims are discussing that the plan is to migrate into the western world, outbreed the native population, then use the democratic process to institute sharia law? A true return to the dark ages is being planned, and your pc idiocy blocks your rational thinking.

I advocate stopping all muslim immigration to combat the plan, as outlined above, to conquer the west.

OrnotBitwise
03-25-2007, 11:36 AM
Like the Neocons ?

Are we talking about the People or the ideology ?
All americans are not Neos nor do all support them, nor do all Muslims support OBL and his ilk. Do all Christians support all christians and kill abortion docotors and blow up clinics and such ? Do all gun owners kill people with then ? Are all people that live in mobile homes theieing trash ?
Are all Bmw owners pricks ? umm bad example there :)


You are using an overly broad brush there AHZ.Well put.

In my little world, there are a lot of people who make the same mistake about Christianity. They look at Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and Fred Phelps and conclude that Christian preachers are either cynical profiteers or clinically insane. They look at the screaming, slobbering, hysterical anti-abortion mob, or the ugly hatred aimed at homosexual people, and conclude that even genuinely devout Christians are sick, twisted and evil. It's not that much of a stretch if you're coming from a non-Christian background to begin with. The worst thing is that once you've made up your mind it's all too easy to find "supporting evidence" almost everywhere.

European history is littered with bizarre characters easily rendered as cartoon villains. Then you can turn to the ugly record of the European powers as colonialists and empire builders to find justification for almost any level of hate and contempt for Christianity.

The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Christians are uncomfortable with the extremist positions of the fundamentalists. The same is true within Islam.

Hermes Thoth
03-25-2007, 11:44 AM
Well put.

In my little world, there are a lot of people who make the same mistake about Christianity. They look at Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and Fred Phelps and conclude that Christian preachers are either cynical profiteers or clinically insane. They look at the screaming, slobbering, hysterical anti-abortion mob, or the ugly hatred aimed at homosexual people, and conclude that even genuinely devout Christians are sick, twisted and evil. It's not that much of a stretch if you're coming from a non-Christian background to begin with. The worst thing is that once you've made up your mind it's all too easy to find "supporting evidence" almost everywhere.

European history is littered with bizarre characters easily rendered as cartoon villains. Then you can turn to the ugly record of the European powers as colonialists and empire builders to find justification for almost any level of hate and contempt for Christianity.

The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Christians are uncomfortable with the extremist positions of the fundamentalists. The same is true within Islam.



No. It's not true in islam. Jihad is a more accepted in islam than any abortion bombing is in christianity. You're misrepresenting.

You were headed towards truth with your observation that The MODERN islamic world is similar to european HISTORY.

MOST muslims are not actual bombers, but most will silently watch attacks on the west occur, and will do little to reign in the actively violent who really are expressing true islam as laid out by the prophet. The faith is violent, totalitarian, theocratic, and is designed to actually thwart attempts at any form of secularization. There is no concept of church/state separation in islam.

Though there are periods of western history where church state were effectively one, it is not an EXPLICIT teaching of the christian faith.
We h

OrnotBitwise
03-25-2007, 12:05 PM
No. It's not true in islam. Jihad is a more accepted in islam than any abortion bombing is in christianity. You're misrepresenting.
No, that's simply not true. Almost all Muslim clerics routinely disavow violence. Our media don't often report it but that's because there's too much profit potential in Muslim-bashing.

You're hung up on that tricky word "Jihad." Many people are, so I don't hold it against you. Most Muslims don't interpret it to mean literal war. Most Muslims interpret it to mean an internal struggle against temptation, and a cultural challenge to maintain their traditions. Much as Christians do.

You were headed towards truth with your observation that The MODERN islamic world is similar to european HISTORY.
Nonsense. I see no particular advancement within Christianity as a whole over the past 1000 years or so. Giordano Bruno wouldn't be burned alive today but that's simply because secular authority would prevent it.

European/American culture has advance despite the Christian influence, not because of it.

MOST muslims are not actual bombers, but most will silently watch attacks on the west occur, and will do little to reign in the actively violent who really are expressing true islam as laid out by the prophet. The faith is violent, totalitarian, theocratic, and is designed to actually thwart attempts at any form of secularization. There is no concept of church/state separation in islam.

Though there are periods of western history where church state were effectively one, it is not an EXPLICIT teaching of the christian faith.
We hMOST Christians are not actual murderers, but most will silently watch attacks on helpless Palestinian Arabs by Christians and Jews.

You're talking about a failing of humanity, not Muslims.

Hermes Thoth
03-25-2007, 12:09 PM
No, that's simply not true. Almost all Muslim clerics routinely disavow violence. Our media don't often report it but that's because there's too much profit potential in Muslim-bashing.

You're hung up on that tricky word "Jihad." Many people are, so I don't hold it against you. Most Muslims don't interpret it to mean literal war. Most Muslims interpret it to mean an internal struggle against temptation, and a cultural challenge to maintain their traditions. Much as Christians do.

Nonsense. I see no particular advancement within Christianity as a whole over the past 1000 years or so. Giordano Bruno wouldn't be burned alive today but that's simply because secular authority would prevent it.

European/American culture has advance despite the Christian influence, not because of it.
MOST Christians are not actual murderers, but most will silently watch attacks on helpless Palestinian Arabs by Christians and Jews.

You're talking about a failing of humanity, not Muslims.

A significant portion of the christian west is dead set against the israeli colonization project. And that project is about zionism, something I also have a problem with. The reality of zionism doesn't negate the reality of islamic jihadism. They're both real and unfortunate.

The actual truth:



http://www.ontruth.com/islamwtc.html
THE TRUTH IS that a significant constituency of Muslims interpret Islam in a way that absolutely demands the kind of brutal violence we witnessed on September 11th in the name of fidelity to Islam and its Holy Places. We'll call this FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM. Fundamentalist Islam is very similar to the kind of Islam practiced from A.D. 622 to c. 1500. America, known to the Islamic world as a Christian nation, supports Israel 's occupation of the third holiest place in Islam (Jerusalem). America stands in the way of recovering other Islamic lands as well. And America is an obstacle to worldwide Islamic expansion. Therefore American people, military and civilians alike, are the enemy of Islam and may be killed as long as they stand in the way of Islam. This kind of Islam is not a fringe movement as it has often been described. The number of Muslims in this camp may be as many as 300 million.* Fundamentalist Muslims may be found in significant numbers in many Islamic countries. The most notorious leaders of Fundamentalist Islam include Ayatollah Khomeini from Iran (deceased) and Osama bin Laden from Saudi Arabia.

THE TRUTH IS that there is also a constituency of the Islamic world that absolutely rejects Fundamentalist Islam in favor of a kind of Islam influenced more by Western sensibilities about religious toleration. We'll call this LIBERAL ISLAM. A majority of American Muslims and European Muslims fall in this camp. They would never consent to the killing of civilians in order to advance Islam, and they would only rarely consent to violence for the indirect defense of Islamic interests. The size of this constituency is probably significantly smaller than Fundamentalist Islam. The number of Muslims that embrace Liberal Islam is probably less than 100 million worldwide.

THE TRUTH IS that the largest constituency of the Islamic world has a very complicated view of the use of violence to defend and advance Islam that permits warlike activity in some cases but not in others. We'll call this MODERATE ISLAM. Moderate Islam is probably split about the justness of the violent action perpetrated on America by Fundamentalist Islam in New York and Washington. Moderate Islam navigates between early Islam practiced by Mohammed and the Caliphs from A.D. 622 to the late middle ages and Liberal Islam influenced heavily by the ideas of Western modernity. There may be as many as 600 million Muslims in the camp of Moderate Islam.

THEREFORE THE SUMMARY TRUTH IS...

1) A very large number of Fundamentalist Muslims in the world supports the kind of terrorism advanced upon America on September 11th.

2) Liberal Islam on the other hand abhors the attack of September 11th in the name of Islam. Liberal Islam is composed mostly of American and European Muslims.

3) Between the above two extreme positions lies Moderate Islam, which represents the vast majority of Islam. Moderate Muslims are conflicted about the attack on America. Some Moderate Islamic teachings can be interpreted to support the attack and some Moderate Islamic teachings can be interpreted to reject the attack. Moderate Islam often finds itself in the position of tacitly approving the violent conduct of Fundamentalist Islam by failing to stand against it because it is Islam.

4) American expressions of Islam are probably composed of an equal number of Liberal Muslims and Moderate Muslims together with a very small number of Fundamentalist Muslims.

5) If only 5% of Muslims in the world are Fundamentalist Muslims which support the kind of terrorist acts of Sepember 11th, then America has 60 million Muslim enemies in the world.

6) If only 5% of Muslims in America are Fundamentalist Muslims which support the kind of terrorist acts of Sepember 11th, then America has 300 thousand Muslim enemies living within its borders.

OrnotBitwise
03-25-2007, 12:17 PM
Obfuscation. Christians in general sat on their fat, complacent butts while the Chinese -- the "godless" communistic Chinese, no less -- invaded Tibet, enslaved the people thereof and murdered most of the clerical caste. Christianity sat on it's hands when Jews were being systematically exterminated in Europe. Christians on the whole turned their eyes away from the genocide in Rwanda, and are doing so again with the genocide in Sudan.

The fact is that human beings in general, not just Muslims, are prone to ignore inconvenient and disturbing facts. Don't single the Muslims out for a failing we all share.

Hermes Thoth
03-25-2007, 12:20 PM
Obfuscation. Christians in general sat on their fat, complacent butts while the Chinese -- the "godless" communistic Chinese, no less -- invaded Tibet, enslaved the people thereof and murdered most of the clerical caste. Christianity sat on it's hands when Jews were being systematically exterminated in Europe. Christians on the whole turned their eyes away from the genocide in Rwanda, and are doing so again with the genocide in Sudan.

The fact is that human beings in general, not just Muslims, are prone to ignore inconvenient and disturbing facts. Don't single the Muslims out for a failing we all share.

Ok. We all have had our bad moments.

Do you want to live in a society ruled by sharia law? Yes or no. Can you even answer a simple question?

OrnotBitwise
03-25-2007, 12:34 PM
Ok. We all have had our bad moments.

Do you want to live in a society ruled by sharia law? Yes or no. Can you even answer a simple question?No, I don't. Neither do most Muslims. Not the strict and Draconian interpretation of Sharia pushed by the Islamists, anyway.

Hermes Thoth
03-25-2007, 01:21 PM
Like the Neocons ?

Are we talking about the People or the ideology ?
All americans are not Neos nor do all support them, nor do all Muslims support OBL and his ilk. Do all Christians support all christians and kill abortion docotors and blow up clinics and such ? Do all gun owners kill people with then ? Are all people that live in mobile homes theieing trash ?
Are all Bmw owners pricks ? umm bad example there :)


You are using an overly broad brush there AHZ.

Just because you can't use the word "all" in a context doesn't mean the numbers aren't relevant. Generalizations are meaningful, and should be used as a factor to determine policy, not dismissed as "racism". Your critical thinking skills are eroded by your political correctness.

uscitizen
03-26-2007, 06:19 AM
No. It's not true in islam. Jihad is a more accepted in islam than any abortion bombing is in christianity. You're misrepresenting.


You were headed towards truth with your observation that The MODERN islamic world is similar to european HISTORY.

MOST muslims are not actual bombers, but most will silently watch attacks on the west occur, and will do little to reign in the actively violent who really are expressing true islam as laid out by the prophet. The faith is violent, totalitarian, theocratic, and is designed to actually thwart attempts at any form of secularization. There is no concept of church/state separation in islam.

Though there are periods of western history where church state were effectively one, it is not an EXPLICIT teaching of the christian faith.
We h

I see very little outrage by Christians about those Islamic peoples killed by our war, which was based on lies. Just another crusade to the middle east for power and riches. That is really all Bush's war is.