PDA

View Full Version : Question for Mainechild



Brent
08-10-2006, 10:37 PM
Since you have chosen to avoid my question in the other thread, I shall post it here to put you on the spot. How do you define 'ALL'? I am referring to this verse: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

Brent
08-10-2006, 10:47 PM
Before Damocles chimes in, let me clarify something.

Not ALL of the inspired books are included in the Bible.
HOWEVER, ALL of the books which are included in the Bible are inspired.

My point? The Bible is always trustworthy. Indeed, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

maineman
08-11-2006, 04:42 AM
like I said... I find it pretty pathetic that you chose a text to justify your avoidance of the teachings of Jesus that does not, of course, come from Jesus. YOu should show me a quote from Jesus that would support or condone your very un-Christ-like views of vengeance and "justice".

And don't call me mainechild...I have children older and infinitely wiser than you.

AnyOldIron
08-11-2006, 05:28 AM
Before Damocles chimes in, let me clarify something.

Not ALL of the inspired books are included in the Bible.
HOWEVER, ALL of the books which are included in the Bible are inspired.

Define 'inspired'. How do you know which book are 'inspired'? Who told you?

klaatu
08-11-2006, 06:14 AM
Before Damocles chimes in, let me clarify something.

Not ALL of the inspired books are included in the Bible.
HOWEVER, ALL of the books which are included in the Bible are inspired.

Define 'inspired'. How do you know which book are 'inspired'? Who told you?


Because his faith teaches him this as translated through the words of the scriptures ...

And maineman .. you are correct .. noware does the Gospel... through the words of Jesus.. does it teach "vengeance"

Care4all
08-11-2006, 06:25 AM
Dear Brent,

The Bible itself also tells us to "test" prophesy, (basically if it takes place then it came from God but if the prophesy does not, then it did not come from God)

and Test Scripture, with Scripture ....meaning, by pulling only One piece of Scripture out of the Bible and trying to make a sermon out of it or discern a meaning out of it, without backing it up with several other scripture quotes regarding the subject, is wrong or could lead to the wrong interpretation

....scripture must be backed up with scripture ...to come to the TRUE meaning of the Scripture.... Basically, "one liners of scripture" can be deceiving, because even Lucifer knows the Scripture quite well and can deceive with those "one liners of Scripture" by making you think it means something it does not through distortion.

God also warned us and TOLD US what the "fate" would be to ANYONE THAT CHANGED a WORD of His Scripture, by adding things to it or by removing it from the Bible.....

think about that.....just for a second....

I personally do not believe He would have had to WARN US about changing the Words of God, unless many of us humans over the milleniums would try to change them, no?

And I would imagine that some of Scripture HAS BEEN CHANGED by the hand of MAN, otherwise GOD would not have given us this warning, nor the advice that the only way to interpret scripture, IS WITH SCRIPTURE, or to test the prophesy that is writen, IF HE DID NOT BELIEVE, IT WOULD BE DONE....by us lowly, and inferior, men.

So I guess what I am trying to say to you Bdw, is that, you can't USE that one verse alone, in debating Maineman on this issue...but its meaning could be distorted without the other Scripture that warns about false prophesy and deceit, and Scripture that speaks of the punishment for changing one word of it etc.....which leads you to believe that IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOME WORDS OF GOD, have been changed enough so that the interpretation may not be the same....and that we must KNOW the whole Bible in order to know if any one scripture stands up to the TEST....the test of its meaning.

Care

AnyOldIron
08-11-2006, 06:26 AM
Because his faith teaches him this as translated through the words of the scriptures ...

And who does the translating? Priests... The articles of his faith is dictated by priests either existent or deceased..

Priests chose which books Brent considers inspired.

And that is dodgy ground to base anything on...

AnyOldIron
08-11-2006, 06:28 AM
the advice that the only way to interpret scripture, IS WITH SCRIPTURE

It's enormously circular to reinforce scripture with scripture.

It is a version of the classic fallacy: 'The bible is the word of god, we know this because it says so in the bible....'

Care4all
08-11-2006, 07:01 AM
the advice that the only way to interpret scripture, IS WITH SCRIPTURE

It's enormously circular to reinforce scripture with scripture.

It is a version of the classic fallacy: 'The bible is the word of god, we know this because it says so in the bible....'

I can thoroughly understand how an Athiest could feel or think this way Anyold.

Seems logical, as far as logic goes.

But some of us, truely know, there is a presense of something bigger than us, out there.....I can't explain it to a man, because to me it is just female intuition...which I am just stocked and filled with in every day life....but it translates to a spiritual life too, for me.

I view the Bible as a history text of human failures and a guide on how to avoid those short comings, and if you read it with an opened mind, especially The Gospel of Jesus Christ, where Jesus Himself continually condemns the Religious Leaders of the time for interpreting and using Scripture wrongly, for their own means, you too could find great insight in its words and parables and stories.....

To me, it is not the words of Scripture themselves that you test with other words of Scripture...

It is what have you learned about God through these words testing what something else says about God in Scripture..... does it fit with who you know as God or what you know as the "spirit of God"?

If one Scripture seems to condradict another Scripture after you read it in full context then you have a PROBLEM....and it needs to be looked at further to discern the meaning....and using other Scripture that is not contradicted, to help one understand the true meaning....

And YES, I know this is all "subjective" to ones own interpretation of the words in the first place and yahdeedah....but all of us, including you, have to make decisions daily that are subjective to how you interpret the situation...

the Bible is stories about those situations, and how it works out when you make one decision over another....it's a book about right and wrong....we each can use it as a tool or guidance...

because I did not even pick up a Bible until my late twenties or early thirties, when I started reading it, for the most part, many lessons in there, I knew already, because I had already gone through some of those real life trials...much of it was just logic, something I felt I knew already...internally, like "Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you"....

Anyway, it really isn't circular to me...

and good morning my favorite Athiest! :)

Care

AnyOldIron
08-11-2006, 07:52 AM
But some of us, truely know, there is a presense of something bigger than us, out there.....

How do you know this Care4? What is the epsitemology that supports this knowledge? Where did the knowledge derive from?

Is it an inkling you have? Do you just feel like there should be something bigger than us? It is comforting to think we have a paternal figure watching over us.


I view the Bible as a history text of human failures and a guide on how to avoid those short comings, and if you read it with an opened mind, especially The Gospel of Jesus Christ, where Jesus Himself continually condemns the Religious Leaders of the time for interpreting and using Scripture wrongly, for their own means, you too could find great insight in its words and parables and stories.....

I consider Jesus to have been a teacher, an itinerant philosopher of the ilk of Socrates. But the bible isn't the word of Jesus, they are the words of followers who lived decades later... It is an extremely dubious source.

Having priests then (with their personal opinions) interpret them is even more dubious a source of knowledge, extremely dubious.

The same can be said for the OT that Jesus might have commented on. Very dubious origins....

but all of us, including you, have to make decisions daily that are subjective to how you interpret the situation...

But in all circumstances we must evaluate the knowledge on which we make the decisions.

That knowledge can be interpreted subjectively doesn't make all knowledge equally valid, see my signature...

because I did not even pick up a Bible until my late twenties or early thirties, when I started reading it, for the most part, many lessons in there, I knew already, because I had already gone through some of those real life trials...much of it was just logic, something I felt I knew already...internally, like "Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you"....

I was brought up with the bible and accepted the stories as fact for a long time. Authoritive figures declared it to be so.

Then as I began to understand logic and reasoning, and the validity of arguments (about age 15) that I recognised the dubious nature of the bible, and particularly the dubious nature of the authority claimed by priests.

Anyway, it really isn't circular to me...

The circular part comes when the veracity of the bible is investigated using evidence from the bible.

As I said like stating, 'The bible is true because it says so in the bible'...

uscitizen
08-11-2006, 08:15 AM
Vengeance is mine sayeth the lord.
I believe Brent is one of those whom a warning label on the bible is required.
"Warning: This book can be hazardous to those whom are mentally unstable.

Everyone should note that the bible was written by the hands of the Jews.

Care4all
08-11-2006, 08:37 AM
But some of us, truely know, there is a presense of something bigger than us, out there.....

How do you know this Care4? What is the epsitemology that supports this knowledge? Where did the knowledge derive from?

Is it an inkling you have? Do you just feel like there should be something bigger than us? It is comforting to think we have a paternal figure watching over us.


I view the Bible as a history text of human failures and a guide on how to avoid those short comings, and if you read it with an opened mind, especially The Gospel of Jesus Christ, where Jesus Himself continually condemns the Religious Leaders of the time for interpreting and using Scripture wrongly, for their own means, you too could find great insight in its words and parables and stories.....

I consider Jesus to have been a teacher, an itinerant philosopher of the ilk of Socrates. But the bible isn't the word of Jesus, they are the words of followers who lived decades later... It is an extremely dubious source.

Having priests then (with their personal opinions) interpret them is even more dubious a source of knowledge, extremely dubious.

The same can be said for the OT that Jesus might have commented on. Very dubious origins....

but all of us, including you, have to make decisions daily that are subjective to how you interpret the situation...

But in all circumstances we must evaluate the knowledge on which we make the decisions.

That knowledge can be interpreted subjectively doesn't make all knowledge equally valid, see my signature...

because I did not even pick up a Bible until my late twenties or early thirties, when I started reading it, for the most part, many lessons in there, I knew already, because I had already gone through some of those real life trials...much of it was just logic, something I felt I knew already...internally, like "Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you"....

I was brought up with the bible and accepted the stories as fact for a long time. Authoritive figures declared it to be so.

Then as I began to understand logic and reasoning, and the validity of arguments (about age 15) that I recognised the dubious nature of the bible, and particularly the dubious nature of the authority claimed by priests.

Anyway, it really isn't circular to me...

The circular part comes when the veracity of the bible is investigated using evidence from the bible.

As I said like stating, 'The bible is true because it says so in the bible'...

I am not going to argue with one of my favorite people ...on this very subject that he is so passionate about....at least not without a "little" info....a "little" background....and probably, not even then, so feel free to hold out answering my questions below, if you wish.... :D

----------------------------------------------

Now tell me, what happened at 15, precisely that changed in you....? What were your "feelings" and what then became your "feelings" on the subject, not necessarily what you were taught, but what you thought and how those thoughts changed and what was it that sparked the evolution of the change or the instantaneous change?

Care

AnyOldIron
08-11-2006, 09:13 AM
Now tell me, what happened at 15, precisely that changed in you....? What were your "feelings" and what then became your "feelings" on the subject, not necessarily what you were taught, but what you thought and how those thoughts changed and what was it that sparked the evolution of the change or the instantaneous change?

I simply stopped accepting that that those in authority told me on face value and began to investigate what I was being told without wanting it to be true. I started to recognise that there was something that didn't fit right about what was being told.

Atheism didn't really come to me through feelings, it was more of a rejection of the use of feelings in my understanding. When I believed, I believed because it felt right, it felt right that there was a paternal figure who looked over us....

I wouldn't say I was atheist at 15, more agnostic, though at that age I had totally rejected the Christian version of religion. Atheism came later, as I investigated further into the notion of religion itself.

I'm not sure what caused this, I have always been inquisitive and probably just reached the age where I wanted to understand the world a little more than accepting that that those in authority (family, vicar etc) told me was true.

uscitizen
08-11-2006, 10:48 AM
I was forcibly raised up in a Christian church. I was finally able to bail out at 16.
The hypocracy I have seen by devout church members turned me off to religion.
The recent nuke em all and let god sort em out rhetoric by devout Christians has done nothing to restore my faith.

I agree with the lifestyle that jesus preached. Kindness, helping the poor and sick, etc
Sadly this attitude is not popular in many/most churches now. Too much politics, hatred and such in there now.

Damocles
08-11-2006, 11:07 AM
I was forcibly raised up in a Christian church. I was finally able to bail out at 16.
The hypocracy I have seen by devout church members turned me off to religion.
The recent nuke em all and let god sort em out rhetoric by devout Christians has done nothing to restore my faith.

I agree with the lifestyle that jesus preached. Kindness, helping the poor and sick, etc
Sadly this attitude is not popular in many/most churches now. Too much politics, hatred and such in there now.
Then you blame the church, not the religion. Either seek out and find one that matches your view, or create one. It is unnecessary to blame all of Christendom for a poor experience as a child. (This is from personal experienc, BTW ;) )

I too spent much of my childhood in a forced environment such as this. It made me angry and put me off all religion regardless of the fact that I was very spiritual. I regret the time that I was not seeking, that I stewed, that I did not progress.

OrnotBitwise
08-11-2006, 12:22 PM
Then you blame the church, not the religion. Either seek out and find one that matches your view, or create one. It is unnecessary to blame all of Christendom for a poor experience as a child. (This is from personal experienc, BTW ;) )

I too spent much of my childhood in a forced environment such as this. It made me angry and put me off all religion regardless of the fact that I was very spiritual. I regret the time that I was not seeking, that I stewed, that I did not progress.
Not everyone who dismisses Christianity as a failed religion does so out of bitterness or anger. Some people reach that conclusion quite dispassionately.

Damocles
08-11-2006, 12:46 PM
Not everyone who dismisses Christianity as a failed religion does so out of bitterness or anger. Some people reach that conclusion quite dispassionately.
However in this particular case he specifically stated that it was not dispassionate...

uscitizen
08-11-2006, 01:47 PM
Then you blame the church, not the religion.
//

Not quite true. My wife has involved me in a couple of local churches. One of the churches pastor connived me into becoming the chairman of their trustees. I like the guy even if I don't agree with his beliefs and he knows I don't believe. :) But he is ever hopefull and not pushy about it.
He does not preach politics from the pulpit and preaches no hatred.
I was amazed that the denomination rules allowed this, and considered that a positive aspect of that sect.
I however have long thought out the spirituallity issue and many years ago decided that I did not believe in GOD or an afterlife. Everyone else is free to believe as they wish as long as their beliefs do not squeeze on me.
I understand and agree with the theory that people have a god sized hole in their psyche. Most people have to believe in something larger it seems. I don't have that hole, no hero worship of humans either.
I am quite abnormal in that one respect I have decided after well over 1/2 century of life.

btw I have been declared dead once and near death on several occasions and still did not see the light :) It does sort of suck to to realize that when you die that it is really over....One big selling point for religion.

AnyOldIron
08-12-2006, 04:46 AM
Not everyone who dismisses Christianity as a failed religion does so out of bitterness or anger. Some people reach that conclusion quite dispassionately.

I dismissed religion itself quite dispassionately.

I see religion not with bitterness or anger, more of an exasperated shaking of the head....