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Hermes Thoth
03-03-2007, 10:55 AM
All the revealing information about the global elites and their plans to rule the world is now basically out in the open. Just googlee it; YOu can read all about it. I believe part of the plan, which truly is spiritual in nature (meaning it transcends energy states; it's a quantum thing), is to have people knowingly opt in or out of the plan, to identify who will serve, and who would rebel. They have plans for the rebels. They always do.

Who will lie for us?
Who is loyal?
Who will kiss the ring of satan?

Just remember, you have free will. We can opt out.

Care4all
03-04-2007, 06:57 AM
my husband and i have opted out!

AnyOldIron
03-08-2007, 08:01 AM
Just remember, you have free will.

No we don't.

We have will, but to call it free is an absolute misnomer.

We make choices based on our accumulated conditioning. We have no control over how we are conditioned, ergo will isn't free....

Damocles
03-08-2007, 08:15 AM
Just remember, you have free will.

No we don't.

We have will, but to call it free is an absolute misnomer.

We make choices based on our accumulated conditioning. We have no control over how we are conditioned, ergo will isn't free....
We do. You can "recondition" yourself in many different ways. To say we have no control over such things is defeatist and an extremist position, to say the least.

You sound like your apologizing for any wrong done by another, "They couldn't help it, it was part of their conditioning!"

It is simply rubbish.

uscitizen
03-08-2007, 11:01 PM
We are trained in the ways of our culture as children. If we stray too far we are labeled as insane, or something of that nature and are likely to be incarcerated.
Shunned and outcast at the least.

Dixie - In Memoriam
03-08-2007, 11:43 PM
You can "recondition" yourself in many different ways. To say we have no control over such things is defeatist and an extremist position, to say the least.

You are talking to someone who thinks Einstein advocated never using common sense, so he has completely abandoned the notion. :D

Dixie - In Memoriam
03-08-2007, 11:45 PM
We are trained in the ways of our culture as children. If we stray too far we are labeled as insane, or something of that nature and are likely to be incarcerated.
Shunned and outcast at the least.


I thought you were leaving? Don't you know it's rude to leave an adios thread and then not go? What's the matter, couldn't break the habit cold turkey? Hmmm? ...It's a tough monkey to shake! :p

AnyOldIron
03-09-2007, 05:46 AM
We do. You can "recondition" yourself in many different ways. To say we have no control over such things is defeatist and an extremist position, to say the least.

You sound like your apologizing for any wrong done by another, "They couldn't help it, it was part of their conditioning!"

It is simply rubbish.

Every perception you have, of any situation or item, is conditioned. If we had control of this conditioning process, then we could control every aspects of our lives, including the actions of others.

Are you claiming that we have that ability?

This is not defeatist or extremist, just because you like to think of yourself as some independent island. Things that you don't like can still be true.

AnyOldIron
03-09-2007, 05:52 AM
You are talking to someone who thinks Einstein advocated never using common sense, so he has completely abandoned the notion.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein

You are arguing against Einstein, Dixie, not me. Unless of course you wish to rewrite what he wrote again, so it makes your point...

'Common sense' is a non-entity, it is nothing more than prejudices and assumptions shared in common by a society. It has nothing to do with reason or reality.

AnyOldIron
03-09-2007, 05:53 AM
I thought you were leaving? Don't you know it's rude to leave an adios thread and then not go? What's the matter, couldn't break the habit cold turkey? Hmmm? ...It's a tough monkey to shake!

Says a poster who has stomped off on many occasions, only to come sulking back... ha ha ha!

Hermes Thoth
03-09-2007, 06:01 AM
We do. You can "recondition" yourself in many different ways. To say we have no control over such things is defeatist and an extremist position, to say the least.

You sound like your apologizing for any wrong done by another, "They couldn't help it, it was part of their conditioning!"

It is simply rubbish.

Every perception you have, of any situation or item, is conditioned. If we had control of this conditioning process, then we could control every aspects of our lives, including the actions of others.

Are you claiming that we have that ability?

This is not defeatist or extremist, just because you like to think of yourself as some independent island. Things that you don't like can still be true.

We can control this conditioning process, we can free ourselves, or we can enslave others. The illuminati uses abuse and torture to split personalities into different facets with different programming, inside the same person.



http://www.raven1.net/ckln-cst.htm
A lecture by Dr. Colin Ross entitled "The CIA and Military Mind Control Research: Building the Manchurian Candidate" given April 18, 1996 in Orange County, California. Dr. Ross gives a thorough overview of the documented history of US CIA and military mind control experimentation, particularly creating mind controlled agents using hypnosis and trauma-based dissociation (or multiple personalities). He talks about extensive bizarre experimental projects and the many CIA mind control contracts with top psychiatrists, psychologists and institutions. He discusses Canadian doctor George Estabrooks and his role in developing Manchurian Candidate agents for military, intelligence, and police agencies using hypnosis, drugs, brain implants, and trauma-based dissociation.

AnyOldIron
03-09-2007, 07:29 AM
We can control this conditioning process, we can free ourselves, or we can enslave others. The illuminati uses abuse and torture to split personalities into different facets with different programming, inside the same person.

If an organisation such as the Illuminati (if they exist) is producing the conditioning effect then it isn't the individual that is controlling the conditioning process.

For example, an individual's perception of dogs. The perception is built up by contact with dogs. If the first contact with a dog is negative to the individual, then that person's perception of dogs will be negative. With each contact with dogs, the individual's perception will change.

But the individual has no real control over the actions of the dogs that alter that perception. Ergo, the individual cannot control the manner in which they are conditioned. There are too many variables, as I said, an individual has no control over the actions of others or general circumstances.

Humans possess will, but to describe that will as free is a total misnomer. :thup:

uscitizen
03-09-2007, 07:30 AM
I thought you were leaving? Don't you know it's rude to leave an adios thread and then not go? What's the matter, couldn't break the habit cold turkey? Hmmm? ...It's a tough monkey to shake!

Says a poster who has stomped off on many occasions, only to come sulking back... ha ha ha!

I said I would be back from time to time. But I guess I should Have said for MR picky ass, that I would not be here as often as my professional and personal work is eating up more of my time.
I was waiting for some batches to finish in the middle of the night....
Kiss my wrinkly old butt dixie :)

uscitizen
03-09-2007, 07:32 AM
On the topic of free will. Can a person just pick and choose to be Gay or straight ? Have acrophobia or not ? Be gregarious or shy ?

AnyOldIron
03-09-2007, 07:34 AM
On the topic of free will. Can a person just pick and choose to be Gay or straight ? Have acrophobia or not ? Be gregarious or shy ?

I'm not sure if gayness is conditioned, I think the latest research suggests it is genetic.

The others are more likely to be conditioned.

uscitizen
03-09-2007, 07:57 AM
I think some gayness is conditioned, but agree that most is genetic.

Damocles
03-09-2007, 08:01 AM
We do. You can "recondition" yourself in many different ways. To say we have no control over such things is defeatist and an extremist position, to say the least.

You sound like your apologizing for any wrong done by another, "They couldn't help it, it was part of their conditioning!"

It is simply rubbish.

Every perception you have, of any situation or item, is conditioned. If we had control of this conditioning process, then we could control every aspects of our lives, including the actions of others.

Are you claiming that we have that ability?

This is not defeatist or extremist, just because you like to think of yourself as some independent island. Things that you don't like can still be true.
We can consciously choose to recondition ourselves. One of the largest examples of considerable change is choosing to convert. One takes their environment and makes themselves from it, the environment doesn't make them.

If the environment made the person, each child in a torn and abusive home would have the same reaction to it. This doesn't happen. Some choose to be fighters for the right, some choose to simply live well, some choose to perpetuate the abuse. All of these were choices that they made.

While a human can't choose their eye color, or probably their sexuality in most cases... They can choose how they interact with the world regardless of their surroundings.

You are what you think, not what happens around you.

Each tiny choice effectively limits the choices you get in the larger picture, but they are still connected. So many choices happen so quickly most people think it is "chance" that brings them to the places in which they end, but in reality it isn't they made a string of choices based on how they choose to interact with their environment. It is there that people can make large changes in their lives all without actually changing the environment. The attempt to assume no responsibility for your life is all the rage lately, you are a product of your environment....

No, you are a product of the choices you made in how to interact with your environment.

uscitizen
03-09-2007, 08:03 AM
Damo, no one rule / action effects all humans the same. We have to deal in generalities for the most part.

Damocles
03-09-2007, 08:08 AM
Damo, no one rule / action effects all humans the same. We have to deal in generalities for the most part.
Generalities are a way of ignoring all those tiny choices that brought you to where you are. Another way of attempting to say, "See! It isn't my fault at all! It's the world and how I was raised!"

uscitizen
03-09-2007, 08:54 AM
Now we are drifting into another area, that of personal responsibility and accepting consequences for ones own actions.
Personal responsibility must be taught and is onr of the conditioning aspects of humans.

then too some people are just not smart enough to make the connection between their actions and the consequences. Neos seem to fall into that category. A generalization I realize but I feel a good generalization.

AnyOldIron
03-09-2007, 10:04 AM
We can consciously choose to recondition ourselves. One of the largest examples of considerable change is choosing to convert. One takes their environment and makes themselves from it, the environment doesn't make them.

If the environment made the person, each child in a torn and abusive home would have the same reaction to it. This doesn't happen. Some choose to be fighters for the right, some choose to simply live well, some choose to perpetuate the abuse. All of these were choices that they made.

That is ignoring the many different conditionings that affect the individual. A child from a broken home wouldn't have the same experience as another from a broken home. The contributory factors are innumerable.

An example of how the environment conditions responses would be feral children. If a human has the ability to recondition themselves, why are humans found in the feral state resemblent of the dogs/wolves/animals that have taken care of them? Why have the humans not risen above their feral state?

AnyOldIron
03-09-2007, 10:06 AM
"See! It isn't my fault at all! It's the world and how I was raised!"

Again, because something is unattractive doesn't make it any less true.

Our perception of the world is dictated by our interactions in the world. That doesn't mean that we have no will, just that the freedom often attributed to that will doesn't exist, because we cannot condition ourselves anymore than we can control the actions of others and the world around us..

Damocles
03-09-2007, 10:20 AM
We can consciously choose to recondition ourselves. One of the largest examples of considerable change is choosing to convert. One takes their environment and makes themselves from it, the environment doesn't make them.

If the environment made the person, each child in a torn and abusive home would have the same reaction to it. This doesn't happen. Some choose to be fighters for the right, some choose to simply live well, some choose to perpetuate the abuse. All of these were choices that they made.

That is ignoring the many different conditionings that affect the individual. A child from a broken home wouldn't have the same experience as another from a broken home. The contributory factors are innumerable.

An example of how the environment conditions responses would be feral children. If a human has the ability to recondition themselves, why are humans found in the feral state resemblent of the dogs/wolves/animals that have taken care of them? Why have the humans not risen above their feral state?
You once again, instead of relating these circumstances to choices, wish to say that all this is "beyond our control". The only thing you have control over is how you react to or interact with that environment. Each tiny choice leads to a greater choice down the road, each of those tiny choices take more variables away from that large choice. What you have done, what you have thought, how you reacted, that is what makes you, not some inescapable destiny based on your environment. That's revisionist, it is extreme and reflects a hope that somehow you could not shape your future, that you didn't come to this end because of how you acted/reacted. It is not however reflective of actual life.

Two different people with exactly the same circumstances would come out with different lives because they would choose to react to and interact with their environment differently.

As to the feral children, if a child doesn't learn a language that portion of their brain shuts down and cannot be brought back, however what led them there? The Russian child that had gone feral actually chose the circumstances. While there was humankind around and he could have approached them he chose to leave that and lived outside of that. His choice led him there. A child left in the woods makes choices that can return them to their home, or can lead them astray. That choice may lead to them becoming feral, but it was choices nevertheless that led them on that path.

uscitizen
03-09-2007, 10:26 AM
Our society greatly slows down the progress of our society, I guess that is true social conservatism.

AnyOldIron
03-09-2007, 10:35 AM
The only thing you have control over is how you react to or interact with that environment.

And in that you have little control. Your reactions are dictated by the accumulation of experiences that you have.

For example, an individual walking down the street who comes across a stray dog will have a reaction that is conditioned by the individual's experience with dogs in the past. An individual who's experience of dogs has on the whole been positive, will react in a much less anxious manner than an individual who's experience of dogs has been largely negative.

They both have a choice, but how they percieve the choices available to them is conditioned.

That's revisionist, it is extreme and reflects a hope that somehow you could not shape your future, that you didn't come to this end because of how you acted/reacted.

It's actually called determinism, and as I said, because we find something ugly doesn't make it any less true.

It is not however reflective of actual life.

So you state that an individual's perception of the choices available to him isn't a result of experience? That an individual choses how they percieve things?

AnyOldIron
03-09-2007, 10:37 AM
Two different people with exactly the same circumstances would come out with different lives because they would choose to react to and interact with their environment differently.

Two different people would never have had the same circumstances??? If they were, they'd be the same people.

uscitizen
03-09-2007, 10:40 AM
Two different people with exactly the same circumstances would come out with different lives because they would choose to react to and interact with their environment differently.

Two different people would never have had the same circumstances??? If they were, they'd be the same people.

Umm I don't fully agree with that. Identical twins for example are not always the same. People are just born with different agression levels and such.

Damocles
03-09-2007, 10:46 AM
The only thing you have control over is how you react to or interact with that environment.

And in that you have little control. Your reactions are dictated by the accumulation of experiences that you have.


That accumulation are each the small choices of which I speak. Experience comes from the choices you make. What you have thought, how you reacted create who you are.



For example, an individual walking down the street who comes across a stray dog will have a reaction that is conditioned by the individual's experience with dogs in the past. An individual who's experience of dogs has on the whole been positive, will react in a much less anxious manner than an individual who's experience of dogs has been largely negative.


An individual who realizes this can change that "reality" by conscious action. They can choose to "retrain" that "visceral" reaction that was built upon the choices of the past. The reaction was not based in a vacuum of inescapable environment, but on past choices that led to the experience that they had. It may have been as simple as taking a turn down a street where there was a dog...



They both have a choice, but how they percieve the choices available to them is conditioned.


Habitual, but not conditioned. There is a difference. Condidtion leads one to believe that there is nothing to be done to change the reaction, but much can be done to change the reaction that they have.



That's revisionist, it is extreme and reflects a hope that somehow you could not shape your future, that you didn't come to this end because of how you acted/reacted.

It's actually called determinism, and as I said, because we find something ugly doesn't make it any less true.


Except it isn't "true" it is just another way to look at the world. Another choice one makes. In this one would choose to negate the importance of even the small choices of the past and call them "conditioning" rather than to peer into themselves to find the reason for the reaction and change/accept it as needed.



It is not however reflective of actual life.

So you state that an individual's perception of the choices available to him isn't a result of experience? That an individual choses how they percieve things?

Yes, as described above. One chooses to either accept those choices of the past which lead them to their current state or one chooses to say that they are "conditioned" and therefore unchangeable reality. The actual reality is with a bit of introspection they can understand the choices of the past, and change the way that they relate to their environment. It may take work, but it certainly isn't some inescapable destiny that cannot be changed.

AnyOldIron
03-09-2007, 10:48 AM
Umm I don't fully agree with that. Identical twins for example are not always the same. People are just born with different agression levels and such.

Identical twins don't have the same experiences. No two individuals have had the same experiences, the same conditioning.

Damocles
03-09-2007, 10:50 AM
Two different people with exactly the same circumstances would come out with different lives because they would choose to react to and interact with their environment differently.

Two different people would never have had the same circumstances??? If they were, they'd be the same people.
They would not. It is an exercise in thought though as there would be no way to test such a theory. Two different people would be different because they would choose to react differently to circumstances. One child, for instance, would choose to turn right rather than left thus leading him back to his parents... Those little choices lead us to the greater choice later, that of whether to accept what we have become and understand what brought us there, or to just live with what we have become and believe that it was inevitable based on circumstances beyond our control.

uscitizen
03-09-2007, 10:54 AM
Umm I don't fully agree with that. Identical twins for example are not always the same. People are just born with different agression levels and such.

Identical twins don't have the same experiences. No two individuals have had the same experiences, the same conditioning.

Up thru the infant stage they pretty much do, and often turn out very different.
I have a brother that is pretty much an exact opposite from me, and this started as infants per our parents.

I believe we are born with certain charistics. The old nature vs nurture thing.

AnyOldIron
03-09-2007, 10:55 AM
Well, I've got three battles on the go, but here in Blighty it's nearly 5pm and I'm going home to get nicely toasted and to molest the missus... :)

Will continue these discussions on Monday...

Have yourselves a good weekend chaps, and drink a beer for me!

Tally Ho!

uscitizen
03-09-2007, 10:56 AM
yeah I am cutting out early today too, in 5 minutes actually. Have to work on DST stuff this weekend.

Hermes Thoth
03-09-2007, 04:51 PM
If an organisation such as the Illuminati (if they exist) is producing the conditioning effect then it isn't the individual that is controlling the conditioning process.

For example, an individual's perception of dogs. The perception is built up by contact with dogs. If the first contact with a dog is negative to the individual, then that person's perception of dogs will be negative. With each contact with dogs, the individual's perception will change.

But the individual has no real control over the actions of the dogs that alter that perception. Ergo, the individual cannot control the manner in which they are conditioned. There are too many variables, as I said, an individual has no control over the actions of others or general circumstances.

Humans possess will, but to describe that will as free is a total misnomer. :thup:

It's free will all right, you just have your head up your rear.

Individuals can program themselves. they can reduce the effects the programming society lays on us. they can realize their fear of dogs is irrational and change their conditioning. We are free. It's just not always easy to exercise free will, and sometimes great powers don't want us to, like the illuminati, for instance.

You can't control a dog or your surroundings? You're just lame.

OrnotBitwise
03-10-2007, 11:26 PM
They would not. It is an exercise in thought though as there would be no way to test such a theory. Two different people would be different because they would choose to react differently to circumstances. One child, for instance, would choose to turn right rather than left thus leading him back to his parents... Those little choices lead us to the greater choice later, that of whether to accept what we have become and understand what brought us there, or to just live with what we have become and believe that it was inevitable based on circumstances beyond our control.You are defining "circumstances" as something -- or a collection of somethings -- entirely external to the individual. This is an unrealistic scenario. Each thought and impulse of an individual results from external stimuli: the duality between internal and external worlds is intrinsically false.

No two different individuals can ever experience exactly the same set of circumstances. It's physically impossible.

Damocles
03-11-2007, 12:47 AM
You are defining "circumstances" as something -- or a collection of somethings -- entirely external to the individual. This is an unrealistic scenario. Each thought and impulse of an individual results from external stimuli: the duality between internal and external worlds is intrinsically false.

No two different individuals can ever experience exactly the same set of circumstances. It's physically impossible.
Hence my assertion that it could never be tested. But you ignore that and trudge on... oblivious to the fact that you simply repeated the first part of my statement in your eloquent, yet disjointed, reposte.

It doesn't change my argument at all. Each decision you make lead up to those larger decisions later. They take away some options, add others. Each thing we do, what we think, how we react makes our environment it isn't a random group of circumstances made from nothing, it is made from the very choices that each of us make.

The attempt to take responsibility for your actions away is a fault of humans that has been around probably since the first person. "It's not my fault!" has been heard throughout the ages, but there is never a less true statement uttered.

What you do changes and limits future choices, each decision leading further onto a path where you reach one of those life-changing choices finding yourself limited in outcomes. We can most definitely change our habitual responses with solid introspection and a solid sense of responsibility.

We can ask ourselves:

What did I do to get myself here?

Or we can ask:

What happened that got me here?

I prefer to ask what I did myself that ended in such a situation, to look back, to seek out those small choices. Not only for the bad, but also for the good. Sometimes you may want to return to such a path rather than avoid them.