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wolfspinne
04-19-2011, 02:56 PM
The word holocaust conjures images of a starving and emaciated humanity stumbling around in prison garb. These pictures have been seen frequently in the media and are well documented.

But there are other images that this word produces in the mind of man that rely simply on one's imagination and lack authentication.

These pictures are a result of certain opinions that have gained credence in the public arena but lack any substantial historical evidence .

In fact these opinions are so well entrenched in the culture that they continue unchallenged and are readily accepted by the average american.

In the minds of most people the word holocaust also takes the form of mass killing of Jews in gas chambers .

While no fair minded person will deny that jews were subjected to persecution and treated brutally during the 2nd w.w. ;the idea that 6 million were systematically murdered ,the majority of which as a result of death in various gas chambers located in various concentration camps ,is a statement that cannot be ,has never been proved, or even investigated ,by any legitimate historian in the world.

The motive for this theory has been shown to be politically based ,designed to gain leverage in the american congress and to enhance the moral justification for the existence and future support of the nation of israel.

This theory is so widely accepted that no one feels able to investigate or verify

the six million number and the gas chamber theory.

It simply has gained public acceptance on nothing more than the clever and crafty
storytelling by certain jewish public relations experts ,for the express purpose of forever gaining the moral high ground in future discussions on the middle east and financial support for the israeli government.

Its time to tell the truth!

Damocles
04-19-2011, 02:58 PM
Ugh... Now a holocaust denier.

My grandfather was one of the people who translated (he spoke fluent German and Russian as well as English) when we came upon the death camps. He had photos he took personally and had some stories even he wouldn't tell. You can flat go and visit the places, see them, visit them. They are very real.

wolfspinne
04-19-2011, 03:18 PM
Ugh... Now a holocaust denier.

My grandfather was one of the people who translated (he spoke fluent German and Russian as well as English) when we came upon the death camps. He had photos he took personally and had some stories even he wouldn't tell. You can flat go and visit the places, see them, visit them. They are very real.

I understand what you are saying,do you understand me?

All I'm challenging is the socially acceptable beliefs that six million perished, and that GAS CHAMBERS were used to do it.

Can you prove that six million died ,what happened to the gas chambers? Did your grandfather tell you about them,did he see them. ? WAKE UP!

Damocles
04-19-2011, 03:25 PM
I understand what you are saying,do you understand me?

All I'm challenging is the socially acceptable beliefs that six million perished, and that GAS CHAMBERS were used to do it.

Can you prove that six million died ,what happened to the gas chambers? Did your grandfather tell you about them,did he see them. ? WAKE UP!

Gas chambers weren't the only tool used to kill people in the death camps, nor do I know anybody who claims that other than you. Do you have a link to somebody claiming that they were all killed in gas chambers?

While gas chambers were definitely used, many millions were killed by other means than the gas chamber. Now the six million number is an estimate, however it shouldn't be ignored it is also estimated the German death camps are also estimated to have killed 6 Million of other "undesirable" (undermenschen) groups like homosexuals, gypsies, etc. The total deaths of such groups when you include the Jews and other "undesirable" groups was more like 12,000,000.



http://www.deathcamps.info/

KZ Dachau was the first concentration camp established in Nazi Germany - the camp was opened on March 22, 1933. The camp's first inmates were primarily political prisoners, Social Democrats, Communists, trade unionists, habitual criminals, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, beggars, vagrants, hawkers.

In the late 1930's the Nazis killed thousands of handicapped Germans by lethal injection and poisonous gas. After the German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, mobile killing units following in the wake of the German Army began shooting massive numbers of Jews and Gypsies in open fields and ravines on the outskirts of conquered cities and towns.

Eventually the Nazis created a more secluded and organized method of killing. Extermination centers were established in occupied Poland with special apparatus especially designed for mass murder. Giant death machines.

Victims were deported to these centers from Western Europe and from the ghettos in Eastern Europe which the Nazis had established. In addition, millions died in the ghettos and concentration camps as a result of forced labor, starvation, exposure, brutality, disease, and execution.

wolfspinne
04-19-2011, 03:49 PM
I'm not saying that. I'm only referring to the GAS CHAMBER STORY only! and the six million dead story ONLY!

Can you help me prove it?

christiefan915
04-19-2011, 05:20 PM
I understand what you are saying,do you understand me?

All I'm challenging is the socially acceptable beliefs that six million perished, and that GAS CHAMBERS were used to do it.

Can you prove that six million died ,what happened to the gas chambers? Did your grandfather tell you about them,did he see them. ? WAKE UP!

What are you questioning, the number of dead or the method of death?

Six million Jews is the accepted number rounded (5,860,00). Also five million non-Jews, also rounded.

wolfspinne
04-19-2011, 05:27 PM
What are you questioning, the number of dead or the method of death?

Six million Jews is the accepted number rounded (5,860,00). Also five million non-Jews, also rounded.

JUST BECAUSE you say so,then it must be true.. Are you being funny?

christiefan915
04-19-2011, 07:26 PM
JUST BECAUSE you say so,then it must be true.. Are you being funny?

No, I'm quoting from history. What numbers do you have and where did you get them?

Rationalist
04-19-2011, 09:28 PM
I've always thought the six million figure sounded a bit too high. That's not to imply that anyone has deliberately distorted the facts; I merely question what method was used to reach that estimate. On the other hand, since that is the historically accepted figure, it is up to Wolfspinne to disprove it. So, Wolfspinne, what do you believe to be a more accurate number, and by what means do you determine it?

Minister of Truth
04-19-2011, 09:32 PM
If people wanted to lie about it they would have rounded it off at 10 million.

Lowaicue
04-20-2011, 02:18 AM
I'm not saying that. I'm only referring to the GAS CHAMBER STORY only! and the six million dead story ONLY!

Can you help me prove it?

I am surprised you are disputing anything to do with the holocaust. I pictured you rather, rubbing your hands in glee and shouting 'Yee-Hah' at the fact that people like you were so 'successful'!!

wolfspinne
04-20-2011, 05:20 PM
I've always thought the six million figure sounded a bit too high. That's not to imply that anyone has deliberately distorted the facts; I merely question what method was used to reach that estimate. On the other hand, since that is the historically accepted figure, it is up to Wolfspinne to disprove it. So, Wolfspinne, what do you believe to be a more accurate number, and by what means do you determine it?

The number is important. Ten million would have aroused suspicion from the start. Six million seems credible but unsubstantiated by any historical review of the facts. They needed a number that would elicit sympathy and so give them the moral highground in the middle east and in the congress . But also, many forget, to put a strangle hold around the necks of Germany and thereby be able to extort billions in Deutchmarks out of them.

christiefan915
04-21-2011, 07:13 AM
The number is important. Ten million would have aroused suspicion from the start. Six million seems credible but unsubstantiated by any historical review of the facts. They needed a number that would elicit sympathy and so give them the moral highground in the middle east and in the congress . But also, many forget, to put a strangle hold around the necks of Germany and thereby be able to extort billions in Deutchmarks out of them.

You can now investigate records of the atrocity. Do you deny that they're real?

"For the first time, secrets of the Nazi Holocaust that have been hidden away for more than 60 years are finally being made available to the public. We're not talking about a missing filing cabinet - we're talking about thousands of filing cabinets, holding 50 million pages. It's Hitler's secret archive.

The Nazis were famous for record keeping but what 60 Minutes found ran from the bizarre to the horrifying. This Holocaust history was discovered by the Allies in dozens of concentration camps, as Germany fell in the spring of 1945.

The storerooms are immense: 16 miles of shelves holding the stories of 17 million victims � not only Jews, but slave laborers, political prisoners and homosexuals. To open the files is to see the Holocaust staring back like it was yesterday: strange pink Gestapo arrest warrants as lethal as a death sentence, jewelry lost as freedom ended at the gates of an extermination camp. Time stopped here in 1945.

Pelley walked through the evidence with chief archivist Udo Jost. He showed 60 Minutes a list of 1,000 prisoners saved by a factory owner who told the Nazis he needed the prisoners labor. This was the list of Oskar Schindler, made famous by the Steven Spielberg movie.

"Here are the 700 men and the 300 women whose names were on Schindler's list," Jost explains.

The 60 Minutes team also found the file of "Frank, Annaliese Marie," better known as Anne Frank. It's her paper trail from Amsterdam to Bergen-Belsen, where she died at the age of 15.

The storerooms are immense: 16 miles of shelves holding the stories of 17 million victims, not only Jews, but slave laborers, political prisoners and homosexuals. To open the files is to see the Holocaust staring back like it was yesterday: strange pink Gestapo arrest warrants as lethal as a death sentence, jewelry lost as freedom ended at the gates of an extermination camp. Time stopped here in 1945.

Pelley walked through the evidence with chief archivist Udo Jost. He showed 60 Minutes a list of 1,000 prisoners saved by a factory owner who told the Nazis he needed the prisoners labor. This was the list of Oskar Schindler, made famous by the Steven Spielberg movie.

"Here are the 700 men and the 300 women whose names were on Schindler's list," Jost explains.

The 60 Minutes team also found the file of "Frank, Annaliese Marie," better known as Anne Frank. It's her paper trail from Amsterdam to Bergen-Belsen, where she died at the age of 15.

But most of the names here are of unknown people. While the Nazis did not write down the names of those executed in the gas chambers at places like Auschwitz, they did keep detailed records of millions of others who died in the camps. Their names are listed in notebooks labeled "Totenbuch," which means "death book." The names are written here, single-spaced, in meticulous handwriting.

(Continued)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/14/60minutes/main2267927.shtml

NOVA
04-22-2011, 02:30 PM
Nice post Christiefan, but deep down, I would like see this bigoted, boneheaded, racist just ignored until he goes away and annoys some other board....
Know what I mean ?

wolfspinne
04-22-2011, 03:07 PM
Nice post Christiefan, but deep down, I would like see this bigoted, boneheaded, racist just ignored until he goes away and annoys some other board....
Know what I mean ?

Wherever I go ,I never surrender ; in fact one word I've never known the meaning of ,is the word surrender. The word has never been part of my vocabulary.

Lowaicue
04-23-2011, 04:55 AM
Wherever I go ,I never surrender ; in fact one word I've never known the meaning of ,is the word surrender. The word has never been part of my vocabulary.

Of course you never surrender. You are sitting in your badly decorated bedroom behind a computer. You surf the web looking for justification of your ridiculous and totally unfounded views and then use them for a fight you can never win. You are either a sad, sad case or a silly little schoolboy.
Tell me, if you dont mind, have you ever been out of America? and who do you most admire?

wolfspinne
04-23-2011, 03:07 PM
Of course you never surrender. You are sitting in your badly decorated bedroom behind a computer. You surf the web looking for justification of your ridiculous and totally unfounded views and then use them for a fight you can never win. You are either a sad, sad case or a silly little schoolboy.
Tell me, if you dont mind, have you ever been out of America? and who do you most admire?

But you never get around to refuting my positions. I'm dealing with SURPLUS POPULATION!

Lowaicue
04-23-2011, 08:15 PM
But you never get around to refuting my positions. I'm dealing with SURPLUS POPULATION!

Before refuting or agreeing we need to know the reasons for your stance. Have you never been taught how to PEE?
Point, Evidence, Explain.
You supply no evidence that can possibly stand scrutiny and therefore your points cannot stand either.
Learn to PEE and we'll have a go.
Meanwhile, have you ever been out of America?