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View Full Version : The Plan, not a "theory"



Hermes Thoth
02-16-2007, 05:55 PM
So why won't you guys accept the truth about the new world order? Denying the plan just isn't going to work anymore. You're going to have to start with the name calling "Nationalist!", "Protectionist", "racist". Bring it on, Noahide cretins.





http://atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GE10Aa02.html
"It would have been quite impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries ..."
- David Rockefeller, Bilderberg club permanent member, 1991

Care4all
02-16-2007, 07:01 PM
i believe it can happen, because the bible tells me so! ;)

Hermes Thoth
02-16-2007, 10:22 PM
i believe it can happen, because the bible tells me so! ;)

If you're insinuating my beliefs are some kind of bible-thumping delusion, you might be interested to know that most christian churches, and especially the evangelicals, are actually agenteurs of the new world order, being brainwashed to believe they are "helping" to fulfill prophecy by unconditionally supporting israel and the jews. basically, they're just stupid.

Care4all
02-16-2007, 10:51 PM
If you're insinuating my beliefs are some kind of bible-thumping delusion, you might be interested to know that most christian churches, and especially the evangelicals, are actually agenteurs of the new world order, being brainwashed to believe they are "helping" to fulfill prophecy by unconditionally supporting israel and the jews. basically, they're just stupid.


nooooo, i am not!

i honestly believe it because Bible prophesy has spoken about it, as evil! and i also can see it happening and know what to look for....and can read! :)

Care4all
02-16-2007, 10:54 PM
i just don't think we can do anything about it, we have no power to change it no matter how much we want to! :(

Hermes Thoth
02-16-2007, 11:01 PM
i just don't think we can do anything about it, we have no power to change it no matter how much we want to! :(

I reject your defeatism. There are always options. If you started having a spine, that would be a great start!:)

Care4all
02-16-2007, 11:04 PM
I reject your defeatism. There are always options. If you started having a spine, that would be a great start!:)

how can anyone with the name ''Care4all'', possibly have a spine? lol

Care4all
02-16-2007, 11:13 PM
Honestly though, there are not many options asshat...we can vote for those against a one world order....which are near impossible to find.

we can continue to read about the rockafellers and melons and rothchilds etc and try to keep up with the trilateral commisions and bilderberger group, council on foreign relations etc....but WHAT can really be done? I used to make myself sick over it all...spending hours a day reading as much as I could....

not as much anymore because it became too frustrating and unhealthy to stress over it and to try to talk to others about it was like talking to a brick wall...

Damocles
02-16-2007, 11:51 PM
Immanentizing the Eschaton, eh?

Care4all
02-17-2007, 07:09 AM
Immanentizing the Eschaton, eh?

No Damo, not at all....

I have no urge whatsoever to be a part of those false prophets that want to "bring this on"....

Like I have said many times, I believe those supposed Christians that want to bring on ww3 are the ones that are evil and support evil and support "the beast" in the book of Revelation in the Bible! :o

uscitizen
02-17-2007, 07:18 AM
So we are just supposed to belly up and take it Care ?
Just because it is foretold in the bible ?

Hermes Thoth
02-17-2007, 08:11 AM
Honestly though, there are not many options asshat...we can vote for those against a one world order....which are near impossible to find.

we can continue to read about the rockafellers and melons and rothchilds etc and try to keep up with the trilateral commisions and bilderberger group, council on foreign relations etc....but WHAT can really be done? I used to make myself sick over it all...spending hours a day reading as much as I could....

not as much anymore because it became too frustrating and unhealthy to stress over it and to try to talk to others about it was like talking to a brick wall...


I reject your "if you can't beat it, join it" appoach to global evil. It's not easy to talk about considering the various ways so many people are invested in it and defend it, but nothing worth doing is easy. Trying to convince others to give up definitely isn't helpful.:)

Care4all
02-17-2007, 08:25 AM
So we are just supposed to belly up and take it Care ?
Just because it is foretold in the bible ?

No uscit, we are not suppose to sit back and take it!!!! We are to oppose it at every turn....(Remember, I believe according to Revelation, that those that work for a New world order, are those that follow the antichrist movement)

I was just a little concerned with asshat's health....I remember how I was obsessed with it at one point a few years back, and like I had mentioned, it sickened me....because there isn't much a person can do....people will always have more money than me, which gives them more control and gives them the power to follow an agenda, even if it is silent and unobservable to most.

We can't reach these people, but we can reach the people that seem to be their pawns.....the ones we vote for....

Care

Hermes Thoth
02-17-2007, 08:27 AM
No uscit, we are not suppose to sit back and take it!!!! We are to oppose it at every turn....(Remember, I believe according to Revelation, that those that work for a New world order, are those that follow the antichrist movement)

I was just a little concerned with asshat's health....I remember how I was obsessed with it at one point a few years back, and like I had mentioned, it sickened me....because there isn't much a person can do....people will always have more money than me, which gives them more control and gives them the power to follow an agenda, even if it is silent and unobservable to most.

We can't reach these people, but we can reach the people that seem to be their pawns.....the ones we vote for....

Care


Don't threaten me.

More important than voting at this point is just educating the public, because as you said, there are none to few anti-globalist candidates.

Care4all
02-17-2007, 08:54 AM
Don't threaten me.

More important than voting at this point is just educating the public, because as you said, there are none to few anti-globalist candidates.

Don't threaten me?????? huh????

Hermes Thoth
02-17-2007, 08:59 AM
Don't threaten me?????? huh????

Huh? what?

Don't reference my health please.

Wouldn't you agree an information campaign is what is needed at this point?

I think explaining the power of money creation and the dangers of fiat currency is a good starting point for most.

I wouldn't be so anti the order if it's goals weren't so diabolical. They are pro genocide and pointedly anti-white. Promising to destroy white solidarity and ascendancy is the way they got all the other races to sign onto their plan.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-17-2007, 09:28 AM
Man.... I need to invest in tin foil!

Hermes Thoth
02-17-2007, 09:31 AM
Man.... I need to invest in tin foil!

Wow . That's really funny, and original. You're a king of comedy. Seriously. Take this stuff on the road!

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-17-2007, 10:10 AM
Wow . That's really funny, and original. You're a king of comedy. Seriously. Take this stuff on the road!

I'm already on AlGore's Information Superhighway! I'm finding lots of people are wearing the tin foil hats out there, it's like Pinhead Vogue or something... I figure, a smart and well-timed investment in the tin foil market, should set me up for life. Keep talking up this shit, Asshat! If you can come up with some story angle involving alien abduction of Dick Cheney, I bet that would fly too! Give it a shot!

PNAC was comprised of intellectuals and their pontifications over how we can move forward in the coming century. It wasn't a "plan" it is a "project" and there is a difference. NWO is a concept designed around commerce and economy, and objectively looks at the global market in a different dynamic. If the EU and China continue current growth rates, the isolated US market will eventually collapse, and so will our economy. If the US can form a coalition with Canada, Mexico, and Central and South America, the combined economic power can compete in a future global market economy. Furthermore, if we can continue to foster trade relations with the EU and China, we can all benefit from the strength of consolidation, and our economy will grow over time.

PNAC and NWO are IDEAS, not PLANS. It is a concept, an idea, a suggestion of how we can continue to compete in a growing global market. Keep in mind, countries like China, who benefit from cheap labor and production cost, and the reality that we simply can't compete head to head with them in any market. Keep in mind, other countries are always going to buy goods from the cheapest source, with little or no regard for human rights or wage levels. So, taking this into consideration, even the most retarded moron pinhead can understand, something has to change the dynamic of the market, or we will be left with no one to trade with in the future.

Of course, it sounds so much more exciting and romantic, to imagine some secret cartel of powerful men, pulling the strings behind the curtain, instigating some evil plot to take over the world.... bwahahahahaha! That plays better to the tin-foil hat wearing pinhead crowd, like yourself.

Damocles
02-17-2007, 10:43 AM
She cares about your health of mind and you say it's a threat? Come on Asshat, you know she made no threats...

uscitizen
02-17-2007, 11:17 AM
No uscit, we are not suppose to sit back and take it!!!! We are to oppose it at every turn....(Remember, I believe according to Revelation, that those that work for a New world order, are those that follow the antichrist movement)

I was just a little concerned with asshat's health....I remember how I was obsessed with it at one point a few years back, and like I had mentioned, it sickened me....because there isn't much a person can do....people will always have more money than me, which gives them more control and gives them the power to follow an agenda, even if it is silent and unobservable to most.

We can't reach these people, but we can reach the people that seem to be their pawns.....the ones we vote for....

Care

I know picking a few nits here Care, but isn't the intent of Christianity or many religions to have a new world order in their image ?

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-17-2007, 11:27 AM
but isn't the intent of Christianity or many religions to have a new world order in their image ?

No.

Care4all
02-17-2007, 11:37 AM
I know picking a few nits here Care, but isn't the intent of Christianity or many religions to have a new world order in their image ? No, we are only commissioned to Spread the Good News, not to force it upon people, just to make them aware of it...only they can accept it, free will still reigns..... :)

uscitizen
02-17-2007, 11:52 AM
No, we are only commissioned to Spread the Good News, not to force it upon people, just to make them aware of it...only they can accept it, free will still reigns..... :)

No onward Christian Soldiers than ?
It does not seem like you belong to a pentecostal church Care.

Church was hell for me as a child....Teaching me christian values is one thing, but forcing "salvation" doen my throat is quite another. I was in intervention until I was 16, and told my partents I was leaving if they did not back off on the church stuff. Of course dad dies a few months later and mom blamed me for that...

My mom was a travel agent, but I did not realize it for many years. She sure booked me rides on lots of guilt trips :rolleyes:

Care4all
02-17-2007, 12:40 PM
No onward Christian Soldiers than ?
It does not seem like you belong to a pentecostal church Care.

Church was hell for me as a child....Teaching me christian values is one thing, but forcing "salvation" doen my throat is quite another. I was in intervention until I was 16, and told my partents I was leaving if they did not back off on the church stuff. Of course dad dies a few months later and mom blamed me for that...

My mom was a travel agent, but I did not realize it for many years. She sure booked me rides on lots of guilt trips :rolleyes:


i am soooo sorry uscit!


i don't belong to any church now, i came from a ''mixed'' family, father protestant born and raised, mother catholic born and raised....she raised my sister and i catholic....got married very young to another catholic, who was an asshole and abusive....quite a bit older than me....in 2.5 years we got a divorce... i knew i was never to marry again according to the catholic church....stayed single for about a decade, but then, well then i met matt, my soul mate.

i was excommunicated from the catholic church when i married matthew....:(, but had already stopped going....

so, matt and i got married in his church, a non-denominational Bible Study church in tampa....we participated in sunday services for a while, but then we moved....we tried other churches, any denomination was fine with me....but we never found a church that felt like home....so i then dragged matt to some catholic churches which did feel like home to me and matt went along with it....but i was NOT permitted to receive communion....i wore a scarlett letter for marrying matt, (excommunicated)....which is odd, because marrying matt was about the holiest thing i had ever done in my life....matt did not like them branding me....

so we eventually just started to read and discuss the bible at home....we are both believers, we just don't have a church building to enter.... :(

i bet ya 100 bucks my mother could give more guilt trips than your mother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

only my mother's guilt trips were always about ''right and wrong'', never about religion per say.....but morals, and God was never part of the subject....it wasn't god i had to worry about, it was my mother's upper hand!!!lol (but she was real tiny and all i had to do from 13 onwards was stick my arm out and she could not reach! :D )

care

uscitizen
02-17-2007, 04:54 PM
That is what it is really about Care, You relationship with your religion/God.
The rest is mostly a social club/support group.
Religion is not for me, But I am a bit envious of those that can draw comfort from their religion.
As long as they don't mess with others rights I fully support any religion.

uscitizen
02-17-2007, 04:56 PM
Care, but back to my origional question.
You do not believe that Christians would like to rule the world and will do what they can (within their limits) to make it happen ?

Hermes Thoth
02-17-2007, 04:59 PM
She cares about your health of mind and you say it's a threat? Come on Asshat, you know she made no threats...

You don't know what I know.

Care4all
02-17-2007, 05:04 PM
Care, but back to my origional question.
You do not believe that Christians would like to rule the world and will do what they can (within their limits) to make it happen ?No, I do not believe so uscit....there is no goal to rule the world....unless of course you are talking about a very few nutzoid ones imo...but at leat in the largest church in the world, they want no part of it....that was their WORST PERIOD, been there, done that.... nothing like that is preached in Church, or it never was back when I went...

There are some church folk that have gotten involved in politics and have made a deal with the devil, but those are just non Christians to me...they follow nothing that Christ taught, they are mean people, I've never seen anything like it...but like I said, these people sold their souls to the Devil and do not practice Christianity....even if it appears that they do on the surface.... and they are the ones that have given TRUE CHRISTIANS a bad name...imo.

Hermes Thoth
02-17-2007, 05:11 PM
I'm already on AlGore's Information Superhighway! I'm finding lots of people are wearing the tin foil hats out there, it's like Pinhead Vogue or something... I figure, a smart and well-timed investment in the tin foil market, should set me up for life. Keep talking up this shit, Asshat! If you can come up with some story angle involving alien abduction of Dick Cheney, I bet that would fly too! Give it a shot!

PNAC was comprised of intellectuals and their pontifications over how we can move forward in the coming century. It wasn't a "plan" it is a "project" and there is a difference. NWO is a concept designed around commerce and economy, and objectively looks at the global market in a different dynamic. If the EU and China continue current growth rates, the isolated US market will eventually collapse, and so will our economy. If the US can form a coalition with Canada, Mexico, and Central and South America, the combined economic power can compete in a future global market economy. Furthermore, if we can continue to foster trade relations with the EU and China, we can all benefit from the strength of consolidation, and our economy will grow over time.

PNAC and NWO are IDEAS, not PLANS. It is a concept, an idea, a suggestion of how we can continue to compete in a growing global market. Keep in mind, countries like China, who benefit from cheap labor and production cost, and the reality that we simply can't compete head to head with them in any market. Keep in mind, other countries are always going to buy goods from the cheapest source, with little or no regard for human rights or wage levels. So, taking this into consideration, even the most retarded moron pinhead can understand, something has to change the dynamic of the market, or we will be left with no one to trade with in the future.

Of course, it sounds so much more exciting and romantic, to imagine some secret cartel of powerful men, pulling the strings behind the curtain, instigating some evil plot to take over the world.... bwahahahahaha! That plays better to the tin-foil hat wearing pinhead crowd, like yourself.

So you fully defend the new world order. It is a plan and it's bad.

Corporate interests are portraying the conclusions you present as the "the only option", but they're not. If you're concerned about competing with china, maybe you should advocate NOT giving them billions of dollars in orders. We don't HAVE to condone slave labor by accepting it's products in the world market. We would not accept an apartheid south africa, so we punished them with trade sanctions, and it worked. Business, like all else in life, should also be conducted within a moral framework.

The borders of nations have always functioned to protect the resources of a nation for the people controlling that land; jobs are a resource too. You're advocating flooding our nations with millions of mexican workers, driving wages to rock bottom levels, simply because that's what CORPORATIONS want. The people have the right to the traditional protections of a functioning border. You do not have the right manipulate the human population because it benefits the bottom line.

We don't have to trade with china. They are fascist and totalitarian; our trade support of them is an abomination. Attempting to compete with china will drive the whole world into slavery, but that's the plan, isn't it?

So you can take your one sided view, and your personal insults, and shove them straight up your noahide ass.

OrnotBitwise
02-18-2007, 12:17 AM
So you fully defend the new world order. It is a plan and it's bad.

Corporate interests are portraying the conclusions you present as the "the only option", but they're not. If you're concerned about competing with china, maybe you should advocate NOT giving them billions of dollars in orders. We don't HAVE to condone slave labor by accepting it's products in the world market. We would not accept an apartheid south africa, so we punished them with trade sanctions, and it worked. Business, like all else in life, should also be conducted within a moral framework.

The borders of nations have always functioned to protect the resources of a nation for the people controlling that land; jobs are a resource too. You're advocating flooding our nations with millions of mexican workers, driving wages to rock bottom levels, simply because that's what CORPORATIONS want. The people have the right to the traditional protections of a functioning border. You do not have the right manipulate the human population because it benefits the bottom line.

We don't have to trade with china. They are fascist and totalitarian; our trade support of them is an abomination. Attempting to compete with china will drive the whole world into slavery, but that's the plan, isn't it?

So you can take your one sided view, and your personal insults, and shove them straight up your noahide ass.
The New World Order actually sounds better than the alternative you present.

Hermes Thoth
02-18-2007, 07:41 AM
The New World Order actually sounds better than the alternative you present.

The alternative of countries pursuing their interests in shifting alliances for mutual self betterment, on various issues, as independant sovereign nations? Like now and all of history?


Free enterprise, specialization, comparative advantage, all those concepts have value in the context of business, but these economic ideas shouldn't be implemented to the extent that our interests are harmed in other dimensions. For instance, allowing jobs to follow cheap labor to a degree is fine, but to the extent that it rewards slave labor and prices non slave nations out of the market it should be avoided. It is a decision we make as a society to make crime not pay. Otherwise, crime does pay. Justifying crime on the basis that it pays is typically the act of a no-good-nik, a criminal. Is it true that if you erode the morality of everyone, it makes everything ok, by comparison? Is this ultimate endpoint of satanic moral relativism? Should we step off the path to Satanic Enslave or HOE (Hell On Earth)?

Hermes Thoth
02-18-2007, 07:48 AM
The New World Order actually sounds better than the alternative you present.

What do you dislike most about what I've indicated? Functioning borders? Maintaining some production capacity on principle, just because depending on military enemies for goods could be a conflict of interest?

uscitizen
02-18-2007, 08:03 AM
No, I do not believe so uscit....there is no goal to rule the world....unless of course you are talking about a very few nutzoid ones imo...but at leat in the largest church in the world, they want no part of it....that was their WORST PERIOD, been there, done that.... nothing like that is preached in Church, or it never was back when I went...

There are some church folk that have gotten involved in politics and have made a deal with the devil, but those are just non Christians to me...they follow nothing that Christ taught, they are mean people, I've never seen anything like it...but like I said, these people sold their souls to the Devil and do not practice Christianity....even if it appears that they do on the surface.... and they are the ones that have given TRUE CHRISTIANS a bad name...imo.

Here in KY there is a "Republican Christian Church".
hmmm


anyway, when I was imprisioned in church, they taught that we would conqueor the world, with conversions not cannons. This is what I am talking about. those people genuine believed that. This was/is the denomination of Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggert :)

Hermes Thoth
02-18-2007, 08:28 AM
Here in KY there is a "Republican Christian Church".
hmmm


anyway, when I was imprisioned in church, they taught that we would conqueor the world, with conversions not cannons. This is what I am talking about. those people genuine believed that. This was/is the denomination of Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggert :)
But their dollars proudly go to the military industrial complex which uses violence to open markets and control resources. That's not christian.


Their overt message of spreading their faith by merely spreading exposure to it, is just an optimism in their message. Nothing sinister there. The sinister is those who seek to suppress religious speech.

Said1
02-18-2007, 10:07 AM
The new world order is going to be great! Seriously, has anyone seen the brochure? You get a free time-share in Florida and it's not like the 'other' time-shares either, you can count on that.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-18-2007, 12:13 PM
So you fully defend the new world order. It is a plan and it's bad.

Corporate interests are portraying the conclusions you present as the "the only option", but they're not. If you're concerned about competing with china, maybe you should advocate NOT giving them billions of dollars in orders. We don't HAVE to condone slave labor by accepting it's products in the world market. We would not accept an apartheid south africa, so we punished them with trade sanctions, and it worked. Business, like all else in life, should also be conducted within a moral framework.

The borders of nations have always functioned to protect the resources of a nation for the people controlling that land; jobs are a resource too. You're advocating flooding our nations with millions of mexican workers, driving wages to rock bottom levels, simply because that's what CORPORATIONS want. The people have the right to the traditional protections of a functioning border. You do not have the right manipulate the human population because it benefits the bottom line.

We don't have to trade with china. They are fascist and totalitarian; our trade support of them is an abomination. Attempting to compete with china will drive the whole world into slavery, but that's the plan, isn't it?

So you can take your one sided view, and your personal insults, and shove them straight up your noahide ass.

First of all, this is not about us being able to trade with China. Until Richard Nixon normalized relations, we didn't trade with China, and the world didn't end. And it's not about just competing with China, there are a number of competitors in a global market. I understand your liberal knee-jerk concerns for the poor people enslaved in China, but honestly, many of the deplorable human rights issues have been resolved, since becoming trade partners with the US. No, it's not completely gone, China is not the model country, and people are still not being treated fairly in China, but really, unless you want to go to war with China and stop it, there isn't a lot we can do.

You suggest not trading with them, but we didn't trade with them before Nixon, and it didn't fix the problem. It's like the Cuban Embargo, we aren't helping the Cubans by refusing to trade with Castro. Through a strong trade alliance, we have actually been able to lobby the Chinese government to moderate its position on human rights, and this is more than we've ever been able to achieve there before.

Still, the NWO isn't just about China, or trade with China, or slave labor. It's about market competitiveness in a global economy. It's about alliances of strong economies, and the power of such alliances in a global market. If we isolate ourselves from this, we will naturally slide down the slippery slope to economic disaster, because we can't compete with China, or the EU. In many areas, our trade with China actually helps to drive the price of goods up on the market, because of our buying power alone, it's supply and demand.

I'll explain what I mean with an example. Let's say China makes bluejeans and sells them for $2 a pair, netting a nice 100% profit over their cost of $1. The US agrees to buy their jeans at $4 a pair, if they observe international laws concerning the treatment of the people working in the jean factory. China agrees, and sells us their $1 jeans for $4 a pair... we put fancy tags on the pocket and sell them to the French for $200 a pair... everyone is happy! But the most important thing is, the flood of $2 jeans on the market from China, never happens, we bought their stock. Now, Levis and Wrangler can sell jeans on the market at $4 a pair, and compete with the Chinese in the global market.

This is a rather crude and simple example, but it demonstrates the concept of establishing trade alliances, and the NWO you so fear. It's not some diabolic plot to control the world, it's not some cartel of the wealthy trying to gain more power, it is the vision and idea for keeping America competitive in the global market place for years to come.

We simply can't stand in the world market with our hands on our hips, demanding these countries conform to our mandates, they don't have to, and we can't make them, unless we are willing to go to war.... which we're not. So, our objective becomes, how do we handle this so our economy doesn't collapse and our trade deficit doesn't continue to grow?

Hermes Thoth
02-18-2007, 02:05 PM
First of all, this is not about us being able to trade with China. Until Richard Nixon normalized relations, we didn't trade with China, and the world didn't end. And it's not about just competing with China, there are a number of competitors in a global market. I understand your liberal knee-jerk concerns for the poor people enslaved in China, but honestly, many of the deplorable human rights issues have been resolved, since becoming trade partners with the US. No, it's not completely gone, China is not the model country, and people are still not being treated fairly in China, but really, unless you want to go to war with China and stop it, there isn't a lot we can do.

You suggest not trading with them, but we didn't trade with them before Nixon, and it didn't fix the problem. It's like the Cuban Embargo, we aren't helping the Cubans by refusing to trade with Castro. Through a strong trade alliance, we have actually been able to lobby the Chinese government to moderate its position on human rights, and this is more than we've ever been able to achieve there before.

Still, the NWO isn't just about China, or trade with China, or slave labor. It's about market competitiveness in a global economy. It's about alliances of strong economies, and the power of such alliances in a global market. If we isolate ourselves from this, we will naturally slide down the slippery slope to economic disaster, because we can't compete with China, or the EU. In many areas, our trade with China actually helps to drive the price of goods up on the market, because of our buying power alone, it's supply and demand.

I'll explain what I mean with an example. Let's say China makes bluejeans and sells them for $2 a pair, netting a nice 100% profit over their cost of $1. The US agrees to buy their jeans at $4 a pair, if they observe international laws concerning the treatment of the people working in the jean factory. China agrees, and sells us their $1 jeans for $4 a pair... we put fancy tags on the pocket and sell them to the French for $200 a pair... everyone is happy! But the most important thing is, the flood of $2 jeans on the market from China, never happens, we bought their stock. Now, Levis and Wrangler can sell jeans on the market at $4 a pair, and compete with the Chinese in the global market.

This is a rather crude and simple example, but it demonstrates the concept of establishing trade alliances, and the NWO you so fear. It's not some diabolic plot to control the world, it's not some cartel of the wealthy trying to gain more power, it is the vision and idea for keeping America competitive in the global market place for years to come.

We simply can't stand in the world market with our hands on our hips, demanding these countries conform to our mandates, they don't have to, and we can't make them, unless we are willing to go to war.... which we're not. So, our objective becomes, how do we handle this so our economy doesn't collapse and our trade deficit doesn't continue to grow?

Not willing to go to war? That's funny.


We shouldn't be empowering people who have no intention of improving their human rights abuses. They have no intention of becoming free. They like totalitariansism and we're just enablers. Im no socialist, but you're ignoring all other concerns based on an abstract notion of ever expanding markets combined with the moral bankruptcy of never taking a moral stand. We can simply make different choices. Your conclusion is errant because it ignores the intrinsic value of freedom and morality, which may not easily translate into a value in the asset column of your balance sheet.

Hermes Thoth
02-18-2007, 02:22 PM
These new world order people have given up fighting totalitarianism. they will accept totalitarianism, as long as they get a cut. And this is the party of the christians? The moral christians. Funny.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-18-2007, 03:27 PM
you're ignoring all other concerns based on an abstract notion of ever expanding markets combined with the moral bankruptcy of never taking a moral stand.

How are we taking a moral stand by ignoring and not dealing with the Chinese? We can do that, we were doing that, but what was happening was, the Chinese were beating our brains out in the global market. Not only us, but the countries in Europe as well, that is why they formed the EU, to consolidate market buying power, and be competitive in the global market with China. Now, we can afford to keep ignoring China, letting them continue to beat our brains out in the market, and continue to run a trade deficit, we are strong enough at this time to do that, but this will not last indefinitely. Eventually, our trade deficit will catch up with us, and our economy will likely collapse.

The reason you see the movement toward Ameri-Mexi-Canada, is because, from a global market standpoint, that is precisely how we solve the problem here. We must consolidate as the EU has, in order to compete in the years to come. If we fail to lay the ground work for this now, we can't do it later, we will miss the opportunity and the error in judgement will cause our economy to collapse, and pinheads to scream and moan. Likewise, we also have to work toward a global alliance of powers, the EU, China, NAFTA partners, all have to work together in trade, and through this, markets are stabilized.

The issue regarding conditions in China, and other similar nations, can be addressed through an idea promoted by a great Democrat President! A rising tide lifts all boats-- JFK. By bringing China into the fold of the world economy and global market, we can exert diplomatic pressure to change and reform, we have some leverage then, whereas, if there is no trade, what is their incentive to change? They have none. We stand a much better chance of fixing the human rights problems in China, by being invested in the Chinese economy, by purchasing and selling goods and services to China, and having that financial interest together, as opposed to having nothing to negotiate with.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-18-2007, 03:52 PM
These new world order people have given up fighting totalitarianism. they will accept totalitarianism...

You are the one misusing the term "totalitarianism" not the NWO people.

Implementing and promoting a concept of unified global trade superpowers, is not totalitarianism, it is a legitimate means to long-term stability in global markets, which will result in better economies for all, and perhaps an end to some 'totalitarianism' in other places.

It's amazing how you are transforming into a pinhead before our very eyes! You use the classic tactic of over-exaggeration and blowing things out of proportion, to make a more dramatic statement and add a sense of urgency to your stupidity. Stop yourself from reacting emotionally, and think about what is being discussed. This isn't about some devious sinister plot of capitalist pigs, to control the world! Please try to get that idea out of your head, and objectively evaluate what they are saying. I didn't originally agree with NAFTA or GATT, but after researching the message, and analyzing the details, I formed a different opinion on the whole thing. It requires looking at this from the perspective of global economics, and the trends developing in the world markets. I am not the best one to explain it, and you can find all kinds of opinions and viewpoints on this, but to refuse to educate yourself is just ignorance, and we can't really afford to not proceed down this road due to ignorance.

It's easy to create a 'boogyman' and get everyone worked up. It is easy to take something productive and legitimate, like PNAC, and turn it into some sinister evil conspiracy plot. People will buy it because they lack confidence and trust in their government, so it's easy to believe. When you factor in partisanship, and our natural inclination to follow the pack, these myths can quickly snowball, and there is no turning back. People convince themselves things must be this way, they've thought it for so long now, it must be true!

Free-thinking, requires you to separate yourself from partisanship, and evaluate things objectively. When I hear someone ranting about the New World Order, PNAC, etc... I see someone who has not objectively looked into these things, they have accepted some partisan opinion and made their minds up already.

Hermes Thoth
02-18-2007, 04:29 PM
These new world order people have given up fighting totalitarianism. they will accept totalitarianism...

You are the one misusing the term "totalitarianism" not the NWO people.

Implementing and promoting a concept of unified global trade superpowers, is not totalitarianism, it is a legitimate means to long-term stability in global markets, which will result in better economies for all, and perhaps an end to some 'totalitarianism' in other places.



Better economies? Who is an economy better for when slave labor is employed? Perhaps an end to totalitarianism? Perhaps? Freedom and individual rights used to be the moral underpinning of the west. Now it's economic growth by any means necessary, even at the expense of freedom? I envision something different, and reject your priorities and vision.



It's amazing how you are transforming into a pinhead before our very eyes! You use the classic tactic of over-exaggeration and blowing things out of proportion, to make a more dramatic statement and add a sense of urgency to your stupidity.

No. I'm making total sense. You're just glossing over the realities of what you promote with nice sounding words and misprioritize morality and economic growth. You present things as "the only way" when there are other choices we could make.




Stop yourself from reacting emotionally, and think about what is being discussed. This isn't about some devious sinister plot of capitalist pigs, to control the world! Please try to get that idea out of your head, and objectively evaluate what they are saying. I didn't originally agree with NAFTA or GATT, but after researching the message, and analyzing the details, I formed a different opinion on the whole thing. It requires looking at this from the perspective of global economics, and the trends developing in the world markets. I am not the best one to explain it, and you can find all kinds of opinions and viewpoints on this, but to refuse to educate yourself is just ignorance, and we can't really afford to not proceed down this road due to ignorance.

You are not thinking critically. THere ARE options on the table. We can choose to place business within a moral framework. And we should look at our economic policies in the wider context of national security and self-determination.

I used to be a neocon like you and I used to say all the same things and make all the same arguments. I was wrong then, as you are wrong now. There is no "only way" and your insults will not deter me from countering your lies with the truth. we could simply stop empowering our enemies with billions of trade dollars. We can close our border to protect our opportunities for our children instead of giving their future to the masses of south american poor. We can stop immigration of muslim terrorists into our nation. We can say no to the New world order.




It's easy to create a 'boogyman' and get everyone worked up. It is easy to take something productive and legitimate, like PNAC, and turn it into some sinister evil conspiracy plot. People will buy it because they lack confidence and trust in their government, so it's easy to believe.

Trust in government? Like big brother? should we love big brother?




When you factor in partisanship, and our natural inclination to follow the pack, these myths can quickly snowball, and there is no turning back. People convince themselves things must be this way, they've thought it for so long now, it must be true!


Your describing yourself and your nazi party of global fascism which is made up of both republicans and democrats.



Free-thinking, requires you to separate yourself from partisanship, and evaluate things objectively. When I hear someone ranting about the New World Order, PNAC, etc... I see someone who has not objectively looked into these things, they have accepted some partisan opinion and made their minds up already.

You've given up thinking for yourself; you just accept these memes presented to you by fascists as gospel and proceed to batter those who tell the truth, or present other options.

When you can see no alternative to giving billions in trade to a totalitarian nation, building it's military to destroy you, you are mentally gone, completely stark raving mad.

Care4all
02-18-2007, 05:10 PM
Better economies? Who is an economy better for when slave labor is employed? Perhaps an end to totalitarianism? Perhaps? Freedom and individual rights used to be the moral underpinning of the west. Now it's economic growth by any means necessary, even at the expense of freedom? I envision something different, and reject your priorities and vision.


I agree with you on this!

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-19-2007, 01:52 AM
Better economies? Who is an economy better for when slave labor is employed? Perhaps an end to totalitarianism? Perhaps? Freedom and individual rights used to be the moral underpinning of the west. Now it's economic growth by any means necessary, even at the expense of freedom? I envision something different, and reject your priorities and vision.

It still is the moral underpinning of the west, at least until Hillary gets elected. We can't tell China not to use 'slave labor' they just look at us as if we are fools, and laugh. We are not going to fight a war to make them do it, so what is your option? Refuse to trade and break diplomatic ties? How is that going to resolve the human rights issues in China? Please explain it to me, because I don't see an end to the means here.

No. I'm making total sense. You're just glossing over the realities of what you promote with nice sounding words and misprioritize morality and economic growth. You present things as "the only way" when there are other choices we could make.


No, you are not making sense, because you haven't explained how disengaging with China, and refusing to trade with them, is going to solve the human rights problem in China. Until you can show me how that happens, I don't believe you, mostly because that was the scenario prior to 1972, and the human rights conditions only worsened in China.


You are not thinking critically. THere ARE options on the table. We can choose to place business within a moral framework. And we should look at our economic policies in the wider context of national security and self-determination.

Oh, I am thinking critically, it is you who isn't. There are no other options on the table, placing business within a moral framework didn't work, we tried it for decades, the problem only worsened. Our policies are centered around national security and self-determination, it is far better to have trade relations with China, than to impose some moral trade ban on them. As I said, and you have not countered, if we don't have trade and commerce with China, we essentially have nothing to bargain with, and the Chinese can tell us to kiss their little yellow asses. If we have billions of dollars tied up in trade interests, it's a little easier to negotiate with them, to lobby the government to change its policies, to push for better conditions.


we could simply stop empowering our enemies with billions of trade dollars.

And as I have repeatedly said, that is precisely what we did up until 1972, when Nixon normalized trade relations with China. The problem with your idea is, we have tried it and it failed. China ignored our calls for moderation, and sold all they could produce to Russia, and our lack of trade dollars didn't effect them one little bit. We had ZERO leverage with the Chinese, nothing to bargain for or with, because we had polarized relations completely with China, and until Nixon, we had no means to negotiate with them about the human rights issues. Now, we are developing a strong trade relationship with them, and that is the key to fostering change in China, it's the only real option we have, unless we want to go to war.

We can close our border to protect our opportunities for our children instead of giving their future to the masses of south american poor. We can stop immigration of muslim terrorists into our nation. We can say no to the New world order.

Yes, and we can all put on our tin foil hats and pretend that Dick Cheney was abducted by aliens, and they seek to control the country. We can bluster up a bunch of drummed up and hyped up hooey about secret cartels and sinister plots, and work the pinheads up into a frenzy over it! THAT is going to solve the human rights problems in China, right???


Trust in government? Like big brother? should we love big brother?

As I said... because you distrust government!

Your describing yourself and your nazi party of global fascism which is made up of both republicans and democrats.

Speaking candidly and objectively, I do not believe there are "nazis" on either side of the political aisle in America. Again, you are going to the well of misused words, and trying to apply dramatic context to make your point... typical pinhead behavior.... classic!

You've given up thinking for yourself; you just accept these memes presented to you by fascists as gospel and proceed to batter those who tell the truth, or present other options.

Well, no... it would appear YOU are the one who has given up thinking, I have been trying to get you to think, but you seem almost incapable because of your partisanship, pinheadedness, or general distrust of government. I haven't "accepted" anything, I just posted how I didn't agree with NAFTA and GATT until I researched them, so how do you figure I "just accepted" this? And as for "other opinions" I have asked you to share your opinions, and you you can't seem to tell me what your plan is for China, or the global economic future, or any other issue we've discussed. You just want to rail on Bush and the Administration, the "neocons" and the NWO. Which would be alright, if you brought substance, but you don't. It's typical liberal knee-jerk reactionary emotive reasoning.

When you can see no alternative to giving billions in trade to a totalitarian nation, building it's military to destroy you, you are mentally gone, completely stark raving mad.

We don't GIVE billions in trade, we TRADE in billions with. You make it sound as if we are gifting something to the Chinese, and we aren't. Again, I ask you, what is your alternative? Tell me something we haven't tried, and I will listen! The way I see it, we have two choices, foster healthy trade relations with China, and try to be diplomatic, or isolate and alienate them completely. The later has been tried, and didn't work. We can stand here with our hands on our hips acting incredulous about the human rights conditions in China, but without some means to leverage and motivate China to change, it isn't going to happen, there is no reason for it to happen, China has no interest in doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, and we aren't going to militarily force them to, and they know that. So... what's your solution? You have none!

The solution, or at least the beginning of a possible solution, comes through diplomacy, and fostering good strong trade alliances with China, becoming economically connected mutually, so that we have a bargaining chip. Without this leverage, China is not going to change, and we can't change them.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 06:39 AM
Better economies? Who is an economy better for when slave labor is employed? Perhaps an end to totalitarianism? Perhaps? Freedom and individual rights used to be the moral underpinning of the west. Now it's economic growth by any means necessary, even at the expense of freedom? I envision something different, and reject your priorities and vision.

It still is the moral underpinning of the west, at least until Hillary gets elected. We can't tell China not to use 'slave labor' they just look at us as if we are fools, and laugh. We are not going to fight a war to make them do it, so what is your option? Refuse to trade and break diplomatic ties? How is that going to resolve the human rights issues in China? Please explain it to me, because I don't see an end to the means here.

No. I'm making total sense. You're just glossing over the realities of what you promote with nice sounding words and misprioritize morality and economic growth. You present things as "the only way" when there are other choices we could make.


No, you are not making sense, because you haven't explained how disengaging with China, and refusing to trade with them, is going to solve the human rights problem in China. Until you can show me how that happens, I don't believe you, mostly because that was the scenario prior to 1972, and the human rights conditions only worsened in China.


You are not thinking critically. THere ARE options on the table. We can choose to place business within a moral framework. And we should look at our economic policies in the wider context of national security and self-determination.

Oh, I am thinking critically, it is you who isn't. There are no other options on the table, placing business within a moral framework didn't work, we tried it for decades, the problem only worsened. Our policies are centered around national security and self-determination, it is far better to have trade relations with China, than to impose some moral trade ban on them. As I said, and you have not countered, if we don't have trade and commerce with China, we essentially have nothing to bargain with, and the Chinese can tell us to kiss their little yellow asses. If we have billions of dollars tied up in trade interests, it's a little easier to negotiate with them, to lobby the government to change its policies, to push for better conditions.


we could simply stop empowering our enemies with billions of trade dollars.

And as I have repeatedly said, that is precisely what we did up until 1972, when Nixon normalized trade relations with China. The problem with your idea is, we have tried it and it failed. China ignored our calls for moderation, and sold all they could produce to Russia, and our lack of trade dollars didn't effect them one little bit. We had ZERO leverage with the Chinese, nothing to bargain for or with, because we had polarized relations completely with China, and until Nixon, we had no means to negotiate with them about the human rights issues. Now, we are developing a strong trade relationship with them, and that is the key to fostering change in China, it's the only real option we have, unless we want to go to war.

We can close our border to protect our opportunities for our children instead of giving their future to the masses of south american poor. We can stop immigration of muslim terrorists into our nation. We can say no to the New world order.

Yes, and we can all put on our tin foil hats and pretend that Dick Cheney was abducted by aliens, and they seek to control the country. We can bluster up a bunch of drummed up and hyped up hooey about secret cartels and sinister plots, and work the pinheads up into a frenzy over it! THAT is going to solve the human rights problems in China, right???


Trust in government? Like big brother? should we love big brother?

As I said... because you distrust government!

Your describing yourself and your nazi party of global fascism which is made up of both republicans and democrats.

Speaking candidly and objectively, I do not believe there are "nazis" on either side of the political aisle in America. Again, you are going to the well of misused words, and trying to apply dramatic context to make your point... typical pinhead behavior.... classic!

You've given up thinking for yourself; you just accept these memes presented to you by fascists as gospel and proceed to batter those who tell the truth, or present other options.

Well, no... it would appear YOU are the one who has given up thinking, I have been trying to get you to think, but you seem almost incapable because of your partisanship, pinheadedness, or general distrust of government. I haven't "accepted" anything, I just posted how I didn't agree with NAFTA and GATT until I researched them, so how do you figure I "just accepted" this? And as for "other opinions" I have asked you to share your opinions, and you you can't seem to tell me what your plan is for China, or the global economic future, or any other issue we've discussed. You just want to rail on Bush and the Administration, the "neocons" and the NWO. Which would be alright, if you brought substance, but you don't. It's typical liberal knee-jerk reactionary emotive reasoning.

When you can see no alternative to giving billions in trade to a totalitarian nation, building it's military to destroy you, you are mentally gone, completely stark raving mad.

We don't GIVE billions in trade, we TRADE in billions with. You make it sound as if we are gifting something to the Chinese, and we aren't. Again, I ask you, what is your alternative? Tell me something we haven't tried, and I will listen! The way I see it, we have two choices, foster healthy trade relations with China, and try to be diplomatic, or isolate and alienate them completely. The later has been tried, and didn't work. We can stand here with our hands on our hips acting incredulous about the human rights conditions in China, but without some means to leverage and motivate China to change, it isn't going to happen, there is no reason for it to happen, China has no interest in doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, and we aren't going to militarily force them to, and they know that. So... what's your solution? You have none!

The solution, or at least the beginning of a possible solution, comes through diplomacy, and fostering good strong trade alliances with China, becoming economically connected mutually, so that we have a bargaining chip. Without this leverage, China is not going to change, and we can't change them.


Everything I want to do is just a list of things we're just "not going to do" from your point of view. That's not a rationale for what we are doing. you dismiss any alternative because you're a closed minded fascist cretin.

We can put trade sanction on our enemies, and we should. We can change them. You've basically given up fighting evil, unless it threatens your precious masters, the jews. WHy will you fight in iraq, but doing something about china is simply "undoable"? What accounts for this disparity in resolve?

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 07:04 AM
see everyone, To dixie, making a moral choice simply because it's moral is an outdated mode of thinking. And empowering enemies with billions of trade is the right thing to do. He's a traitor to america, and god, and is on his path to hell, having proclaimed goodness as something the world can't afford.

All esoteric faiths, including ziono-kabbalo-masonism, generally have the acceptance of evil as the highest teaching. This isn't enlightenment, it's en-criminal-ment. It's basically the child's argument "everyone else is doing it". Children know this doesn't cut it. Why are grown men advocating such evil and traitorousness to their own nation?

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 07:13 AM
Did Jesus say to kick evils butt, or ignore it and live the correct life without evil ?

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 07:37 AM
Did Jesus say to kick evils butt, or ignore it and live the correct life without evil ?

I do not believe christianity is a pact to accept enslavement, if that's what you mean.

I'm fairly certain jesus wouldn't espouse the "go along to get along" approach to evil dixie is offering.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 07:53 AM
Nope something else Asshat. Live your owm life and let others live theirs.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 08:07 AM
Nope something else Asshat. Live your owm life and let others live theirs.

Tell that the NWO fascists who want to control everyone and everything. Ok, stymie? I reject the interpretation of christianity that says christians must never defend themselves.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 08:26 AM
Tell that the NWO fascists who want to control everyone and everything. Ok, stymie? I reject the interpretation of christianity that says christians must never defend themselves.

Oh I reject that as well, just don't feel that Christianianity should rule others.
We have had those world order control nuts since man has walked upright. Regardless of the size of their world. Remember bullies in school ?
Hmm we have made it this far. I wonder what we did right in the past ?

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 08:28 AM
Oh I reject that as well, just don't feel that Christianianity should rule others.


Im not claiming it should. Im saying amoral corporate fascists with an anti-freedom agenda shouldn't rule others either.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 08:33 AM
Im not claiming it should. Im saying amoral corporate fascists with an anti-freedom agenda shouldn't rule others either.

Oh I agree. We have been waging this battle since the beginning of time. For man at least. Most of the problem is caused by those sheeple willing and eager to follow and be led.


then of late the sheeple have been sold the idea that they are actually participating in the corporate game, while they are being fleeced :)

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 08:38 AM
Oh I agree. We have been waging this battle since the beginning of time. For man at least. Most of the problem is caused by those sheeple willing and eager to follow and be led.


then of late the sheeple have been sold the idea that they are actually participating in the corporate game, while they are being fleeced :)


So why are you aguing with me? You know the truth but are too cowardly to talk about it, so when people do talk about it you are reminded of your cowardice, so you try to shut them up too? ANd are thus also a tool of the system you think is wrong?

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 08:45 AM
So why are you aguing with me? You know the truth but are too cowardly to talk about it, so when people do talk about it you are reminded of your cowardice, so you try to shut them up too? ANd are thus also a tool of the system you think is wrong?

I just talked about it. People are basically greedy and selfish and this battle between the haves and have nots will continue.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 08:46 AM
I just talked about it. People are basically greedy and selfish and this battle between the haves and have nots will continue.


So how does this factor into your position on the new world order?

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 08:48 AM
The latest new world order will rise and fall. It is getting closer to it's peak.
My position on "new world orders" is that they suck, but I cannot override the stupidity of the majority of humans.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 08:53 AM
The latest new world order will rise and fall. It is getting closer to it's peak.
My position on "new world orders" is that they suck, but I cannot override the stupidity of the majority of humans.

So the stupidity of people lets you off the hook for doing something about the NWO? You can talk about it and spread the truth, instead of denying it. That's one thing you can do.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 09:00 AM
I don't deny it. Nor can I really do anything about it, since it is based on basic human behaviours. It will cycle up and down as it always has.
I see no use to complain about the weather, or difficulties understanding women either ;)

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 09:02 AM
I don't deny it. Nor can I really do anything about it, since it is based on basic human behaviours. It will cycle up and down as it always has.
I see no use to complain about the weather, or difficulties understanding women either ;)


You're assuming revolution will always be possible. These guys are plotting to create a revolution proof world, where they have all guns, all means of production, and controll all markets. It's not really just business as usual, though you downplay it as such.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 09:07 AM
All empires have fallen.
True change happens one person at a time.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 09:16 AM
All empires have fallen.

Things can change. This empire trancends nations and is founded upon the concept of elitism itself.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 09:25 AM
Things can change. This empire trancends nations and is founded upon the concept of elitism itself.
So did the Greek and Roman empires.
So you are saying this is like the Templar based banking /trading empire. umm it is gone as well.

Damocles
02-19-2007, 09:38 AM
As long as these people have existed there have been detractors they have "fought" this battle and in what way have won? Come on dude, the more insane you sound the less likely people will be to believe you. Just "spreading the truth" is not a plan to end this thing. That is such total crapola. You've been "spreading the truth" all this time, centuries, and still they exist and continue to promote their agenda.

So, attempting to give some blame to others who are not joining you on this crusade of spreading the truth on them and make them some sort of sinner in this is flatly laughable.

Spreading the truth is the same as doing nothing in this case because it has exactly the same effect.

The attempt by those who are "spreading the truth" to include as many groups as possible makes it even less likely that others will believe you, especially when they know people of each of those groups and simply reject that their friend would be part of this.

Also, each time you inject race into it people are automatically going to reject much of what you say. Therefore "noahide" and "jew" should remain outside of your rhetoric when attempting to "spread the truth" so that people will actually listen rather than reject. Even if noahides and jews are in it, just give names and let people research rather than sounding like a nutjob nazi promoting anti-jewish rhetoric to "save the world" status.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 09:40 AM
As long as these people have existed there have been detractors they have "fought" this battle and in what way have won? Come on dude, the more insane you sound the less likely people will be to believe you. Just "spreading the truth" is not a plan to end this thing. That is such total crapola. You've been "spreading the truth" all this time, centuries, and still they exist and continue to promote their agenda.

So, attempting to give some blame to others who are not joining you on this crusade of spreading the truth on them and make them some sort of sinner in this is flatly laughable.

Spreading the truth is the same as doing nothing in this case because it has exactly the same effect.

The attempt by those who are "spreading the truth" to include as many groups as possible makes it even less likely that others will believe you, especially when they know people of each of those groups and simply reject that their friend would be part of this.

Also, each time you inject race into it people are automatically going to reject much of what you say. Therefore "noahide" and "jew" should remain outside of your rhetoric when attempting to "spread the truth" so that people will actually listen rather than reject. Even if noahides and jews are in it, just give names and let people research rather than sounding like a nutjob nazi promoting anti-jewish rhetoric to "save the world" status.

First you're in hysterical denial, now you're criticizing my approach. You're flatly laughable.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 09:51 AM
So did the Greek and Roman empires.
So you are saying this is like the Templar based banking /trading empire. umm it is gone as well.

umm.. no it's not.

Damocles
02-19-2007, 09:53 AM
First you're in hysterical denial, now you're criticizing my approach. You're flatly laughable.
There is no hysterical denial in the fact that I stated that I believe that some of what you say is correct. Your attempt at making it so just makes you appear desperate.

I criticize the approach because it is the very approach that has not worked for centuries. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is one of the definitions of insanity.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-19-2007, 11:06 AM
Everything I want to do is just a list of things we're just "not going to do" from your point of view. That's not a rationale for what we are doing. you dismiss any alternative because you're a closed minded fascist cretin.

Well, this is just not true. Everything you want to do is just things we've already tried, and it didn't fix the problem of human rights in China, because the problem obviously still exists. I haven't dismissed any alternative we haven't tried, go ahead, present one! I'm not being closed minded, I am willing to discuss anything within reason.

We can put trade sanction on our enemies, and we should. We can change them. You've basically given up fighting evil, unless it threatens your precious masters, the jews. WHy will you fight in iraq, but doing something about china is simply "undoable"? What accounts for this disparity in resolve?

We had trade sanctions on China, for many years, we simply refused to trade with them, because they were our enemy. We didn't change them, that is the point. What you seem to be failing to understand is this... unlike other third-world countries, China doesnt depend on trade with the US to survive. There are countries we could cut off trade with, and make them dance like little monkeys for us, because they have no other economic choice, China isn't one of those. They will simply snub their noses at us and trade with Russia.

I also want to point out, the Jews are not my masters, I am a Christian, and only have ONE Master. China is not Iraq, and we can't handle China like Iraq, or any other third-world country. Sure, we could invade China, and we could probably defeat them in battle, is that what you suggest we should do? There will be a lot of American soldiers coming home in flag-draped coffins, are you sure that's the road you want to go down? Should this happen, it would make the daily death toll postings on Iraq, look like a Sunday School Picnic.

see everyone, To dixie, making a moral choice simply because it's moral is an outdated mode of thinking. And empowering enemies with billions of trade is the right thing to do. He's a traitor to america, and god, and is on his path to hell, having proclaimed goodness as something the world can't afford.

Now this is getting ridiculous. You can't make a rational argument for my points, so you resort to attacking me morally? And to "empower", is to give power that wasn't previously there, this is not the case with China, they are already 'empowered'. Our stubborn refusal to trade with them, wouldn't effect anything, they have plenty of other nations who will buy cheap goods and services from them, and they really don't need American dollars, never have, and never will. Trade is simply a means to political opportunity and change. With it, we have some leverage on China, we have mutual economic interests, without it, we have nothing and can effect no change. You can't present a logical counter to this point, because you understand it is valid, and so you resort to the low-blow tactic of attacking my morality and trying to guilt me into accepting your idiocy. Ask anyone here, that don't work with me, sorry.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 12:33 PM
Everything I want to do is just a list of things we're just "not going to do" from your point of view. That's not a rationale for what we are doing. you dismiss any alternative because you're a closed minded fascist cretin.

Well, this is just not true. Everything you want to do is just things we've already tried, and it didn't fix the problem of human rights in China, because the problem obviously still exists. I haven't dismissed any alternative we haven't tried, go ahead, present one! I'm not being closed minded, I am willing to discuss anything within reason.

We can put trade sanction on our enemies, and we should. We can change them. You've basically given up fighting evil, unless it threatens your precious masters, the jews. WHy will you fight in iraq, but doing something about china is simply "undoable"? What accounts for this disparity in resolve?

We had trade sanctions on China, for many years, we simply refused to trade with them, because they were our enemy. We didn't change them, that is the point. What you seem to be failing to understand is this... unlike other third-world countries, China doesnt depend on trade with the US to survive. There are countries we could cut off trade with, and make them dance like little monkeys for us, because they have no other economic choice, China isn't one of those. They will simply snub their noses at us and trade with Russia.

I also want to point out, the Jews are not my masters, I am a Christian, and only have ONE Master. China is not Iraq, and we can't handle China like Iraq, or any other third-world country. Sure, we could invade China, and we could probably defeat them in battle, is that what you suggest we should do? There will be a lot of American soldiers coming home in flag-draped coffins, are you sure that's the road you want to go down? Should this happen, it would make the daily death toll postings on Iraq, look like a Sunday School Picnic.

see everyone, To dixie, making a moral choice simply because it's moral is an outdated mode of thinking. And empowering enemies with billions of trade is the right thing to do. He's a traitor to america, and god, and is on his path to hell, having proclaimed goodness as something the world can't afford.

Now this is getting ridiculous. You can't make a rational argument for my points, so you resort to attacking me morally? And to "empower", is to give power that wasn't previously there, this is not the case with China, they are already 'empowered'. Our stubborn refusal to trade with them, wouldn't effect anything, they have plenty of other nations who will buy cheap goods and services from them, and they really don't need American dollars, never have, and never will. Trade is simply a means to political opportunity and change. With it, we have some leverage on China, we have mutual economic interests, without it, we have nothing and can effect no change. You can't present a logical counter to this point, because you understand it is valid, and so you resort to the low-blow tactic of attacking my morality and trying to guilt me into accepting your idiocy. Ask anyone here, that don't work with me, sorry.


No. You're not willing to discuss things openly. Sanctions do work to control behavior. We didn't sustain russia with huge production contracts, we let them crumble from the inside. THe real question is "why did we abandon a successful strategy when it came to china"

The bottom line is we're empowering our enemies with trade dollars. YOu can call it other words, but that doesn't change the inherent stupidity of this current policy.

You're basically suggesting america act powerless, act like we've been defeated, act like we have no choice but to accept totalitarianism as something to be partnered with and profitted from instead of something to be excluded from the brotherhood of man. You've lost your way and are hurting the nation with your brainwashed neocon pseudologic.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 12:43 PM
Well said Asshat .

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 12:46 PM
Well said Asshat .

Thanks, brother man.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 12:50 PM
What were people saying at that time when kissinger et all were doing there "open up china" routine? Im too young. DIdn't anyone have concerns about that? Was it the same fuckers doing it then that are doing it now? Implementing shit ideas and calling it wise? And arguing with anyone who saw them as the naked emperors they were?

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 12:58 PM
Yes pretty much the same thing from the same group. Those standing to profit from the deal were happy, the rest mostly did not understand the future implications. Not even the press, who were actually liberal then.

TRGLDTE
02-19-2007, 01:02 PM
The New World Order actually sounds better than the alternative you present. I always preferred the Wolf Pack.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 01:07 PM
Skull and Bones ?

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 01:16 PM
Ohh. and global illiuminati fascist controllers, if you're reading this, my silence can be purchased. Taking me the hard way would mean too much publicity for you. I have several media kits poised to go out automatically if I do not call everyday and give the passcode.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 01:26 PM
Illuminati, that is the anem I could not remember earlier. Yep and they have a treasure under DC.
Or is it Pookeepsie ?

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 01:31 PM
Illuminati, that is the anem I could not remember earlier. Yep and they have a treasure under DC.
Or is it Pookeepsie ?

Their real treasure is their occult knowledge, the knowledge of how to pervert whole societies at a time, with totalitarian hierarchies. ( a priestly class?)

But we should switch to the same topology as the internet, equally powerful interconnected and redundant nodes.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 01:45 PM
Occult knowledge ? I don't believe in that hocus pocus stuff.
From what I have learned of the illuminati, they were the first international bankers. ie capitalists.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 02:11 PM
Occult knowledge ? I don't believe in that hocus pocus stuff.
From what I have learned of the illuminati, they were the first international bankers. ie capitalists.
Do tell...

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 02:16 PM
asshat, I don;t think this is an occult group trying to rule the world, but a collection of capitalists trying to control business all over the world. Not exactly the same thing.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 02:24 PM
asshat, I don;t think this is an occult group trying to rule the world, but a collection of capitalists trying to control business all over the world. Not exactly the same thing.


They are one and the same. Capitalism is fine. I'm a capitalist. Capitalism unhinged from all previous moral constraints and all other considerations is not good. It may seem to be a good idea to allow china to make everything, but one should also FACTOR IN the inherent and obvious risks to self suffiency and the subsequent national security position one is placed in when their resources supply chains can be cut at will.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 02:43 PM
Well the result is the same, but the reasons are different.
From what you have said, I am assuming that you view neocons and illumati in the same way ?

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 03:01 PM
Well the result is the same, but the reasons are different.
From what you have said, I am assuming that you view neocons and illumati in the same way ?


The neocon faction of the right is definitely illuminati. They channel the basically positive energy of patriotism into a lethal expression of zionism. The are doing the grunt work necessary to build their new world order, and using patriotism to expand the power of their world banking organization. The left primarily exists to propagate the social and psychological agenda of the new world order, eroding "nationalism", the new dirty word, eroding white solidarity, dumbing down the school system, propagating every sort of known behavioral pathology as merely "another choice, to be respected".

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 03:05 PM
I remember the "oh gee, isn't the UN great" filmstrips at school. Now that's indoctri-tainment!

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 03:09 PM
I view the greed and power of capitialism differently from the illuminati theory.
Greed vs occultism.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 03:11 PM
I view the greed and power of capitialism differently from the illuminati theory.
Greed vs occultism.

You think money and hierarchy (the lesson of occultism)are different things. They're not. The purpose of abstract value (fiat currency) is control.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 03:19 PM
I remember the "oh gee, isn't the UN great" filmstrips at school. Now that's indoctri-tainment!
He who controls the media controls the world. Why do you think the neos have been working so hard to take control of the media and supress what they can't control (PBS).
Remember the duck and cover drills ? Aka Bend over and kiss your *&^ goodbye.

School books are full of sickeningly sweet Yankee Doodle Dandy propaganda.
Bush and Dixie actually believed it all :D

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-19-2007, 03:49 PM
No. You're not willing to discuss things openly. Sanctions do work to control behavior. We didn't sustain russia with huge production contracts, we let them crumble from the inside. THe real question is "why did we abandon a successful strategy when it came to china"

Sanctions didn't work, we tried it prior to 1972. From at least WWI until 1972, the US did not trade with Red China. Did the human rights abuses stop or decline? No! Why? Because China is a huge country, and is able to sustain itself internally for the most part, and they can always rely on Russia for trade dollars.

Also, with regard to the former Soviet Union, we did indeed engage in trade and diplomacy with them, do you not remember the grain deals? This is not what caused the Soviet economy to collapse, it was the inability of Communism to thrive in a global market place, and their inability to compete with ever-advancing US technologies.


The bottom line is we're empowering our enemies with trade dollars. YOu can call it other words, but that doesn't change the inherent stupidity of this current policy.

Again, we aren't "empowering" anyone, China is already "empowered" and self-sustaining as a world superpower. We can't affect that, really. Whether we trade with China or not, is irrelevant to their empowerment and ability to abuse humans.

You're basically suggesting america act powerless, act like we've been defeated, act like we have no choice but to accept totalitarianism as something to be partnered with and profitted from instead of something to be excluded from the brotherhood of man. You've lost your way and are hurting the nation with your brainwashed neocon pseudologic.

No, again... "powerless" would be enacting of policies that isolate us from China, and remove any and all leverage we have with them, like trade. This is what YOU advocate, not ME! I favor a policy in which we are tied economically to China, and can effect some political leverage through mutual economic interests. See... with your plan, we are powerless, with my plan, we have some means of leverage and a bargaining chip to utilize our power... we are thus, more powerful.

Brainwashing and pseudo-logic is also what you are doing. You continue to repeat the same baseless argument and points, you continue to ignore the facts of the matter and historic proof that your ideas have failed, and you keep resorting to the classic liberal tactic of over-dramatizing and characterizing your points, in an attempt to appeal to the emotive ones. AKA: Bleeding Heart Syndrome!

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 04:12 PM
No. You're not willing to discuss things openly. Sanctions do work to control behavior. We didn't sustain russia with huge production contracts, we let them crumble from the inside. THe real question is "why did we abandon a successful strategy when it came to china"

Sanctions didn't work, we tried it prior to 1972. From at least WWI until 1972, the US did not trade with Red China. Did the human rights abuses stop or decline? No! Why? Because China is a huge country, and is able to sustain itself internally for the most part, and they can always rely on Russia for trade dollars.

Also, with regard to the former Soviet Union, we did indeed engage in trade and diplomacy with them, do you not remember the grain deals? This is not what caused the Soviet economy to collapse, it was the inability of Communism to thrive in a global market place, and their inability to compete with ever-advancing US technologies.


The bottom line is we're empowering our enemies with trade dollars. YOu can call it other words, but that doesn't change the inherent stupidity of this current policy.

Again, we aren't "empowering" anyone, China is already "empowered" and self-sustaining as a world superpower. We can't affect that, really. Whether we trade with China or not, is irrelevant to their empowerment and ability to abuse humans.

You're basically suggesting america act powerless, act like we've been defeated, act like we have no choice but to accept totalitarianism as something to be partnered with and profitted from instead of something to be excluded from the brotherhood of man. You've lost your way and are hurting the nation with your brainwashed neocon pseudologic.

No, again... "powerless" would be enacting of policies that isolate us from China, and remove any and all leverage we have with them, like trade. This is what YOU advocate, not ME! I favor a policy in which we are tied economically to China, and can effect some political leverage through mutual economic interests. See... with your plan, we are powerless, with my plan, we have some means of leverage and a bargaining chip to utilize our power... we are thus, more powerful.

Brainwashing and pseudo-logic is also what you are doing. You continue to repeat the same baseless argument and points, you continue to ignore the facts of the matter and historic proof that your ideas have failed, and you keep resorting to the classic liberal tactic of over-dramatizing and characterizing your points, in an attempt to appeal to the emotive ones. AKA: Bleeding Heart Syndrome!



These are all false conclusions. In your scenario we look the other way while the whole world is enslaved by a mad race to the bottom, as we pit freemen against slaves.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-19-2007, 05:36 PM
These are all false conclusions.

What is a false conclusion? That we didn't trade with China until 1972? That our lack of trading with China for decades, didn't end or curtail human rights abuses? That having a mutual interest aids in negotiation of any kind? That China can thrive and prosper just fine without US trade? What IS my false conclusion here?

In your scenario we look the other way while the whole world is enslaved by a mad race to the bottom, as we pit freemen against slaves.

Perhaps you missed the articulated point about having a bargaining chip, a mutual economic interest, something to leverage and negotiate with? This is hardly "looking the other way" ...which would be to ignore China, refuse to trade with them, and allow them to continue another 100 years of the status quo.

Your suggestion does not address the problem you are claiming exists, that is just the fact of the matter here, and you need to accept it. If you are genuinely concerned with the human rights conditions in China, it would seem you'd support America having some means of leverage and some way of influencing the Chinese to change their ways, rather than promoting continued isolationist practices that haven't worked.

Care4all
02-19-2007, 07:18 PM
yeah dixie, I guess that is why we trade with cuba or with north korea, huh?

Care4all
02-19-2007, 07:22 PM
we are looking the other way at very bad human rights conditions in China...we are not USING THIS TRADE LEVERAGE to help the actual workers of china get to a humane condition sooner for the Chinese people....if we did that, God forbid, our prices in the usa would be higher....just say it like it really is instead of dancing around the two faceness of our country when it comes to trade.

maineman
02-19-2007, 07:55 PM
dixie is willing to send thousands of americans to their death because of human rights abuses in Iraq (oil oil oil) but could give a fuck about human rights abuses in China.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-19-2007, 08:22 PM
yeah dixie, I guess that is why we trade with cuba or with north korea, huh?

Cuba and North Korea are nowhere near the size of China, and are completely unable to self-sustain their countries without outside trade partners. Cuba has survived without US trade, because of Russia, so this is a great example of why refusing to trade with China will never work to effect a change.

Here's how it works... If we are providing vital trade with a country, we can effect some economic strain on them by withdrawing trade, and we have done so before. This doesn't work with China, they have no vital interest regarding our trade, it makes no difference to them if we trade with them or not. Now, if we foster strong trade alliances with them, and in 20-30 years, they become economically dependent on those trade agreements, perhaps we can threaten to embargo, or withdraw trade with them, and perhaps it would have enough economic impact to effect a change. As it stands now, it's like you threatening to not ever call Tom Cruise! I don't think he is going to be devastated by that news.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-19-2007, 08:30 PM
we are looking the other way at very bad human rights conditions in China...
....but could give a fuck about human rights abuses in China.

As I have articulated, and no one has offered a counter to... we aren't 'looking the other way' or 'not giving a fuck' by fostering trade relations which can be used as an economic bargaining chip to effect political change. The concept of isolation and trade embargoes against China, are paramount to turning our back and not giving a fuck, because they do not offer any opportunity to gain any leverage or means to effect any change in China. At least with the Neocon's idea, there is that opportunity.


Now, you pinheads can keep yammering the same stupid shit over and over, I really don't care, but you have not addressed my points or the issue at hand, and I am getting tired of going around in circles here. If you have something to show for your idiotic ideas and viewpoints, now would be the time to divulge it. Otherwise, I am going to have to assume my points stand, and you couldn't refute them with substance. In other words, I have completely owned your asses!

Damocles
02-19-2007, 09:28 PM
yeah dixie, I guess that is why we trade with cuba or with north korea, huh?
Worked real well there didn't it, Care?

Worked so well that the same leaders are still in office or their son, and the abuses continue. Even on such a level that people sail across the ocean gap on car doors, desperate to get away from one of the wonderful places our trade sanctions created, and I firmly believe that they don't do it from the other place because that ocean gap is just too wide.

Sanctions very rarely have the actual result we wish, they unnecessarily punish the populace and actually end up keeping the strong in power as the weak have no access to what can make them strong....

Damocles
02-19-2007, 09:31 PM
we are looking the other way at very bad human rights conditions in China...
....but could give a fuck about human rights abuses in China.

As I have articulated, and no one has offered a counter to... we aren't 'looking the other way' or 'not giving a fuck' by fostering trade relations which can be used as an economic bargaining chip to effect political change. The concept of isolation and trade embargoes against China, are paramount to turning our back and not giving a fuck, because they do not offer any opportunity to gain any leverage or means to effect any change in China. At least with the Neocon's idea, there is that opportunity.


Now, you pinheads can keep yammering the same stupid shit over and over, I really don't care, but you have not addressed my points or the issue at hand, and I am getting tired of going around in circles here. If you have something to show for your idiotic ideas and viewpoints, now would be the time to divulge it. Otherwise, I am going to have to assume my points stand, and you couldn't refute them with substance. In other words, I have completely owned your asses!
There has been more positive change in China since we began working with them. The idea that it "punishes" the governments for doing bad things to put sanctions on another nation is simply frivolous when there are so many examples of where they simply have not worked, but actual trade actually got the changes we want to see started. It may take a while, but it is getting better, not worse in China because of our trade agreements.

Sometimes Greed isn't the only need for trade to become relevant to people's lives.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 09:35 PM
yes, I always said we could defeat Castro, by sending refirgerators, walkmans and blue jeans to Cuba.

Hermes Thoth
02-20-2007, 04:58 PM
There has been more positive change in China since we began working with them. The idea that it "punishes" the governments for doing bad things to put sanctions on another nation is simply frivolous when there are so many examples of where they simply have not worked, but actual trade actually got the changes we want to see started. It may take a while, but it is getting better, not worse in China because of our trade agreements.

Sometimes Greed isn't the only need for trade to become relevant to people's lives.


There has been no substantive increase in human rights in china. That is just a rosy hue you like to paint on things. It's not happening.
You too are refusing to consider the long term relevant security and sovereignty issues.

read about the laogai (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=laogai&btnG=Google+Search), the slave labor camps in china.

Hermes Thoth
02-20-2007, 05:00 PM
Worked real well there didn't it, Care?

Worked so well that the same leaders are still in office or their son, and the abuses continue. Even on such a level that people sail across the ocean gap on car doors, desperate to get away from one of the wonderful places our trade sanctions created, and I firmly believe that they don't do it from the other place because that ocean gap is just too wide.

Sanctions very rarely have the actual result we wish, they unnecessarily punish the populace and actually end up keeping the strong in power as the weak have no access to what can make them strong....

They worked in changing apartheid south africa.

We didn't exactly make russia the most favored nation, like we are with china. We let it crumble, with some minor grain trades; we didn't put them on steroids with massive trade contracts.

Hermes Thoth
02-20-2007, 05:01 PM
dixie is willing to send thousands of americans to their death because of human rights abuses in Iraq (oil oil oil) but could give a fuck about human rights abuses in China.
Basically all neocons are irrational. Their reason for doing things is "because jews said".

Hermes Thoth
02-20-2007, 05:08 PM
Some one find me anything where chinese leaders have agreed to give their people western style freedoms. Or find even a statement that they respect those values one iota.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-20-2007, 05:40 PM
Some one find me anything where chinese leaders have agreed to give their people western style freedoms. Or find even a statement that they respect those values one iota.

Okay, let's look at this from your perspective. What effect will it have on the Chinese, for the US to refuse any sort of trade or commerce with them? Is this going to make them agree to give their people anything? And if so, explain how that is going to work, because I don't see it happening.

Is your problem, the human rights abuses in China? If so, how is your approach going to solve that problem? (I've explained mine.) Please explain your plan, because it doesn't make sense to me. I can't see how isolationism is supposed to effect a country quite accoustomed and comfortable with isolationism, but maybe you have an explanation.

This quote was interesting to me, because you seem to be demanding that someone show you the Chinese have accepted western values, and respect them, and I think we can all agree this isn't the case. Should we isolate ourselves from China, and snub them in trade, are they magically going to start respecting and promoting western values? If that is your theory, please indicate how it works, because again, I don't see it happening.

Hermes Thoth
02-20-2007, 05:52 PM
Okay, let's look at this from your perspective. What effect will it have on the Chinese, for the US to refuse any sort of trade or commerce with them? Is this going to make them agree to give their people anything? And if so, explain how that is going to work, because I don't see it happening.


I believe it is the job of american leaders to consider the consequences for Americans, moreso than for the chinese, the people engaged in a global arms race with us.

ANy sort of trade? How about we just NOT make them Favored Nation and purposefully try to out source all the worlds' production to them. How about that? Is NOT doing that "no trade of any sort"? Your hyperbole belies your basic irrationality on the matter.



Is your problem, the human rights abuses in China? If so, how is your approach going to solve that problem? (I've explained mine.) Please explain your plan, because it doesn't make sense to me. I can't see how isolationism is supposed to effect a country quite accoustomed and comfortable with isolationism, but maybe you have an explanation.


My problem is more with expecting the rest of the world to compete slave/prison/work camp/child labor. That is a futile effort which will only enslave everyone else to the same level, Based on "neocon certified" tm, "Free market principles". How does driving everyone else down to the level of slaves, help the chinese laborers?



This quote was interesting to me, because you seem to be demanding that someone show you the Chinese have accepted western values, and respect them, and I think we can all agree this isn't the case. Should we isolate ourselves from China, and snub them in trade, are they magically going to start respecting and promoting western values? If that is your theory, please indicate how it works, because again, I don't see it happening.

and abandoning western values is bringing them around in what capacity?

Two can play the snide question game.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-20-2007, 06:20 PM
Basically all neocons are irrational. Their reason for doing things is "because jews said".

This is more knee-jerk liberal emotionalism, designed to attack those you disagree with. It is void of substance, and irrelevant to the topic at hand. Why do you persist in acting like a pinhead? I know you are smart enough to realize you are doing it, and you seem to be trying hard to not be a pinhead, but when you say things like this, you demonstrate the classic traits, and it's very difficult to give you any credibility at all.

We didn't exactly make russia the most favored nation, like we are with china. We let it crumble, with some minor grain trades; we didn't put them on steroids with massive trade contracts.

Russia was offered MFN status by Harry Truman in 1947, they declined. Through the 70's, Nixon lobbied for, and eventually got MFN status for the Soviets, and made essentially the same deal with China, and was on the way to granting them MFN status as well, when the Tiananmen Square massacre happened, and China would not become a MFN until Clinton.

We didn't cause the soviets to crumble from lack of US trade dollars. China is not going to change human rights policies because we refuse to trade with them. MFN status doesn't mean we are giving China billions of dollars, it means we allow import/export between countries, without tariffs. Whether US and Chinese companies have to pay tariffs to trade, has no effect on the human rights policies of the Chinese government.

Hermes Thoth
02-20-2007, 06:25 PM
Basically all neocons are irrational. Their reason for doing things is "because jews said".

This is more knee-jerk liberal emotionalism, designed to attack those you disagree with. It is void of substance, and irrelevant to the topic at hand. Why do you persist in acting like a pinhead? I know you are smart enough to realize you are doing it, and you seem to be trying hard to not be a pinhead, but when you say things like this, you demonstrate the classic traits, and it's very difficult to give you any credibility at all.

We didn't exactly make russia the most favored nation, like we are with china. We let it crumble, with some minor grain trades; we didn't put them on steroids with massive trade contracts.

Russia was offered MFN status by Harry Truman in 1947, they declined. Through the 70's, Nixon lobbied for, and eventually got MFN status for the Soviets, and made essentially the same deal with China, and was on the way to granting them MFN status as well, when the Tiananmen Square massacre happened, and China would not become a MFN until Clinton.

We didn't cause the soviets to crumble from lack of US trade dollars. China is not going to change human rights policies because we refuse to trade with them. MFN status doesn't mean we are giving China billions of dollars, it means we allow import/export between countries, without tariffs. Whether US and Chinese companies have to pay tariffs to trade, has no effect on the human rights policies of the Chinese government.


I thought we beat the USSR through the superior growth capacity inherent in capitalism. That's the narrative at least. But now that we have given all forseeable growth opportunities to our totalitarian enemies, now that's not how we beat russia? How did we cause russia to crumble?

uscitizen
02-20-2007, 06:29 PM
Isn't bush giving MFT to Vietnam ?

Hermes Thoth
02-20-2007, 06:29 PM
It's so funny he called me a liberal. If liberals are the ones who "want america to lose", what does that make neocons like dixie, who believe in accepting our inability to prevail against the chinese as a presupposition of all possible arguments, a national hero?

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-20-2007, 06:40 PM
My problem is more with expecting the rest of the world to compete slave/prison/work camp/child labor. That is a futile effort which will only enslave everyone else to the same level, Based on "neocon certified" tm, "Free market principles". How does driving everyone else down to the level of slaves, help the chinese laborers?

So, you aren't really concerned with the human rights in China, you just don't want to compete with them? Is that your position? Here's a little economic secret, the country who produces the cheapest goods and services, always sells the most. So, while you are ignoring the Chinese, they will be taking the jobs of your 'slave labor' and out-producing you in the market, and instead of competing with 'slave labor' you will be unemployed, wishing you could compete with someone on some level. Where you plan fails, is in not considering we are discussing a global market, and not merely a US market. We can't control what the Russians do, or the Germans, or the Japanese, or any one else who wants to buy China's cheap goods. Therefore, we can include China into the fold and implement a WTO structured to bring overall market stability, which insures we all have a job, or we can ignorantly and stubbornly keep gulping liberal emotionalist koolaid, and thinking with our hearts.

As I said, if you sincerely want to solve the human rights problems in China, if you legitimately want to change the practices of the Chinese, it begins with normalized relations and trade. When our economies have a mutual interest, we can effect political pressure and thus, change, because we have some means of leverage.

If I tell you I want you to go wash my car, what are the odds it will be done? I would say, essentially, zero... right? Now... IF I were your boss, and your next paycheck depended on my happiness, and I told you I want you to go wash my car, I predict the odds would be much higher it would be done.... am I correct? Reason being, I have more leverage as your boss, than as Dixie from the message board, and you have a motivation and incentive to do what I want, if I control your money. The same is true with China, they have no reason or motive to change, and refusing to trade with them is not going to ever change that. If we foster strong trade alliances, we then have an economic connection, a mutual interest, something to motivate and leverage them with... otherwise, we are just mouthing off on a message board, and China will never change, just like you will never come wash my car.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-20-2007, 06:54 PM
I thought we beat the USSR through the superior growth capacity inherent in capitalism.

I believe this is true, in part. If it's the case, the same might also happen with China, who knows? My only point was, the Soviet Union did not crumble from lack of US trade, and we did indeed trade with them, well before they ever crumbled. Cuba is the best model for your viewpoint, we have been under embargo with Cuba since 1959, and I'm afraid it has done little to effect a change, they still have the same dictatorial regime. Like Damo says, to keep repeating what hasn't worked, is the definition of insanity.

You are seeking to 'punish' China by withholding US trade dollars, and the thing is... China doesn't care, they have very little US trade dollars anyway, and can make boat loads off the Europeans and Russia! They had just as soon sell to them, and not have to deal with the human rights issues. So, what happens is, the EU and Russia benefit from the cheap Chinese goods, and we suffer. This is your 'solution' to the problem, and it is just idiotic. It doesn't 'help' us, it doesn't 'hurt' them! ...and it never actually addresses the problem of human rights in China, does it???? Funny how you keep avoiding that point, isn't it?

Hermes Thoth
02-20-2007, 06:56 PM
My problem is more with expecting the rest of the world to compete slave/prison/work camp/child labor. That is a futile effort which will only enslave everyone else to the same level, Based on "neocon certified" tm, "Free market principles". How does driving everyone else down to the level of slaves, help the chinese laborers?

So, you aren't really concerned with the human rights in China, you just don't want to compete with them? Is that your position?

Profitting from their slave labor only makes their servitude profitable for their captors. You don't help them.




Here's a little economic secret, the country who produces the cheapest goods and services, always sells the most.

But i believe it should be a moral sticking point in any integrated world economy that slave labor or prisoner labor is not legitimate and not available. It's a moral choice. Like when we outlawed slavery here, or wouldn't import ivory.





So, while you are ignoring the Chinese, they will be taking the jobs of your 'slave labor' and out-producing you in the market, and instead of competing with 'slave labor' you will be unemployed, wishing you could compete with someone on some level.

I believe america could do just fine picking up any production slack in the market. We are hard workers, just not slaves. We might maintain some sort of tangible skill too! Bonus. Specialization isnt the end all be all. DId you ever think anyone could ever be "that crazy"?





Where you plan fails, is in not considering we are discussing a global market, and not merely a US market. We can't control what the Russians do, or the Germans, or the Japanese, or any one else who wants to buy China's cheap goods.

We can do much more to influence behavior in this arena, we just choose not to. OUr leaders have chosen to validate slave labor, regardless of the long term effect on the world of such an atrocious action.



Therefore, we can include China into the fold and implement a WTO structured to bring overall market stability, which insures we all have a job, or we can ignorantly and stubbornly keep gulping liberal emotionalist koolaid, and thinking with our hearts.


Or we can make some key changes a precondition of entry into the world economic system. You know, it's actually a BAD idea for the sheep to lay down with the wolves.



As I said, if you sincerely want to solve the human rights problems in China, if you legitimately want to change the practices of the Chinese, it begins with normalized relations and trade. When our economies have a mutual interest, we can effect political pressure and thus, change, because we have some means of leverage.


No. The gazillions of dollars the communists skim off the top is somehow not "dissuading them" from their totalitarianism. Sorry. I know that's the spiel, but it's just NOT OCCURING.



If I tell you I want you to go wash my car, what are the odds it will be done? I would say, essentially, zero... right? Now... IF I were your boss, and your next paycheck depended on my happiness, and I told you I want you to go wash my car, I predict the odds would be much higher it would be done.... am I correct? Reason being, I have more leverage as your boss, than as Dixie from the message board, and you have a motivation and incentive to do what I want, if I control your money. The same is true with China, they have no reason or motive to change, and refusing to trade with them is not going to ever change that. If we foster strong trade alliances, we then have an economic connection, a mutual interest, something to motivate and leverage them with... otherwise, we are just mouthing off on a message board, and China will never change, just like you will never come wash my car.

I think you're a brainwashed fool.

I think they might change if they were more desperate, less rich, less fattened on trade agreements, if their people were rioting and resisting and plotting against them, and if we were ACTUALLY on the side of freedom. Dixie, you make me physically ill with the fetid blackness of your soul.

Hermes Thoth
02-20-2007, 07:04 PM
Extension of neocon logic: If you don't pimp out your mom, other people WILL pimp out their mom, and they will have that much more revenue every week, and in a couple years, they will be able to buy more interest bearing assets than you, and have more money, and have more power, and the ability to use undue influence to rub you out, so you better go pimp out your mom.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-20-2007, 07:45 PM
We can do much more to influence behavior in this arena, we just choose not to.

Such as??? We've already been through this! We can continue to ignore them and refuse to trade with them for another 100 years, but how is that going to solve the problem? It hasn't worked so far, and there is no indication it would ever work, because there is no motivation for China to do anything differently. We could drop about 20 500 megaton nuclear bombs on China... that would effect a change.... is that what you think we should do to influence behavior? The way I see it, those are the options... become friendly in trade and commerce, and try to diplomatically pressure them by dangling the carrot of trade dollars, or blow them to hell and back. The only other option, is to isolate ourselves, and ignore them, which has not worked, and has only served to strengthen the totalitarian regime, as well as providing the European markets with cheap goods, at our expense.

No. The gazillions of dollars the communists skim off the top is somehow not "dissuading them" from their totalitarianism. Sorry. I know that's the spiel, but it's just NOT OCCURING.

I hate to inform you of this, but the communists are not exactly the best purveyors of quality human rights. Unless you wish to declare all-out military war on Communism, you will never really change this. Perhaps that is your plan? Who knows? You don't seem to have a plan, you just don't want to trade with China, for whatever pinhead reason, for whatever pinhead logic, you think this will improve the situation for the people of China.

I think you're a brainwashed fool.

I think they might change if they were more desperate, less rich, less fattened on trade agreements, if their people were rioting and resisting and plotting against them, and if we were ACTUALLY on the side of freedom. Dixie, you make me physically ill with the fetid blackness of your soul.

Actually, I am not brainwashed a bit, I have been asking you for information like crazy, giving you every opportunity to explain your position, and you keep mindlessly repeating the same platitudes about our moral responsibility to not support slave practices. Instead of trying to see the points I have objectively presented, you had rather throw insults and pejoratives at me, and muddy the water with typical liberalist rhetoric and debate tactics. No, I am not the brainwashed one here, that seems to be you.

Again, prior to 1972, we did not trade with the Communist China regime at all. Through all the years we didn't trade with China, it never caused a change in conditions, and even the most retarded could figure out why it didn't, there was no motivation to change. In the meantime, Eastern markets benefit from Western isolationism, and China quadruples its population and production capacity. So, what you are proposing, is precisely what we were doing, and it didn't work! Not only did it not work, it resulted in China becoming the #2 world superpower.

The argumental point remains intact, we can not effect any political change in China without some means of diplomatic leverage, or something to bargain with. Trade dollars could eventually be that bargaining chip, that needed leverage to effect a change. It will not happen tomorrow, there is no magic feather to tickle the China's ass with, and make them start treating people with dignity and respect, you know this as well as I do, so you can't expect that to ever be the case. This problem must be viewed in context of what we can and can't reasonably do and expect. In that context, our best hope for any change in the future of human rights in China, has to lie in diplomatic and trade agreements, not isolation and ignorance.

Care4all
02-20-2007, 07:55 PM
our trade with China is emboldening its gvt's military and arms build up...isn't it? you have to admit this, no?

Hermes Thoth
02-20-2007, 08:01 PM
We can do much more to influence behavior in this arena, we just choose not to.

Such as??? We've already been through this! We can continue to ignore them and refuse to trade with them for another 100 years, but how is that going to solve the problem? It hasn't worked so far,

But we've been executing your plan of trading with them. So what's not working? Your plan? We're doing YOUR plan. Are you learning disabled?




and there is no indication it would ever work, because there is no motivation for China to do anything differently.

Right, because under YOUR plan, which we are executing now :rolleyes: , they are rich and happy, so why do you think they're suddenly gonna give people rights. No rights for anybody is working for them. Ya see.




We could drop about 20 500 megaton nuclear bombs on China... that would effect a change.... is that what you think we should do to influence behavior? The way I see it, those are the options... become friendly in trade and commerce, and try to diplomatically pressure them by dangling the carrot of trade dollars, or blow them to hell and back. The only other option, is to isolate ourselves, and ignore them, which has not worked, and has only served to strengthen the totalitarian regime, as well as providing the European markets with cheap goods, at our expense.


We can integrate with them slowly as they have legal changes and individual rights improvements, instead of this herky jerky "all at once before anyone complains" method of doing it.

The sad truth is that making us more totalitarian and slavery-tolerant is the real goal.

your bleak vision presumes failure.



No. The gazillions of dollars the communists skim off the top is somehow not "dissuading them" from their totalitarianism. Sorry. I know that's the spiel, but it's just NOT OCCURING.

I hate to inform you of this, but the communists are not exactly the best purveyors of quality human rights. Unless you wish to declare all-out military war on Communism, you will never really change this. Perhaps that is your plan? Who knows? You don't seem to have a plan, you just don't want to trade with China, for whatever pinhead reason, for whatever pinhead logic, you think this will improve the situation for the people of China.

I think you're a brainwashed fool.

I think they might change if they were more desperate, less rich, less fattened on trade agreements, if their people were rioting and resisting and plotting against them, and if we were ACTUALLY on the side of freedom. Dixie, you make me physically ill with the fetid blackness of your soul.

Actually, I am not brainwashed a bit, I have been asking you for information like crazy, giving you every opportunity to explain your position, and you keep mindlessly repeating the same platitudes about our moral responsibility to not support slave practices. Instead of trying to see the points I have objectively presented, you had rather throw insults and pejoratives at me, and muddy the water with typical liberalist rhetoric and debate tactics. No, I am not the brainwashed one here, that seems to be you.

Again, prior to 1972, we did not trade with the Communist China regime at all. Through all the years we didn't trade with China, it never caused a change in conditions, and even the most retarded could figure out why it didn't, there was no motivation to change. In the meantime, Eastern markets benefit from Western isolationism, and China quadruples its population and production capacity. So, what you are proposing, is precisely what we were doing, and it didn't work! Not only did it not work, it resulted in China becoming the #2 world superpower.

The argumental point remains intact, we can not effect any political change in China without some means of diplomatic leverage, or something to bargain with. Trade dollars could eventually be that bargaining chip, that needed leverage to effect a change. It will not happen tomorrow, there is no magic feather to tickle the China's ass with, and make them start treating people with dignity and respect, you know this as well as I do, so you can't expect that to ever be the case. This problem must be viewed in context of what we can and can't reasonably do and expect. In that context, our best hope for any change in the future of human rights in China, has to lie in diplomatic and trade agreements, not isolation and ignorance.


Making them rich as hell isn't leverage.

Hermes Thoth
02-20-2007, 08:05 PM
And there it is. Ignorant Isolationist. Putting sanctions on slave labor is "isolationism" now. See how mentally bankrupt he is? Total retard level.

Damocles
02-20-2007, 09:44 PM
No "substantive" increase in human rights, yet they haven't cracked down on Hong Kong, they have opened areas to capitalism, a new Middle Class has grown over the years and people move more freely with more automobiles and highways than ever.

Yes there are restrictive laws, yes there is Tibet, yes China needs to make more strides, but not trading with them didn't make any of the above changes happen. Opening areas to capatilistic trade would have been unheard of, and as more of the population reaches the undreamed of "riches" included more and more of them will spread this to the rest of China. The idea that there have been "no" changes because of the trade is simply denial, and that you get so hysterical over it only undermines your argument.

Denying trade kept people in the dark as to what others have and allowed the government an ultimate power they no longer have. They did not crack down heavily on huge demonstrations in 2002, previous to 1972, shoot even in the 90s they simply would have run over them with tanks.

To say that nothing has changed there, and that there is not slow progression toward something new, maybe too slow for some, but far better than pre-trade.

We make better strides being over-friendly than we ever did attempting to be strict.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-20-2007, 11:10 PM
And there it is. Ignorant Isolationist. Putting sanctions on slave labor is "isolationism" now. See how mentally bankrupt he is? Total retard level.

When I said "isolation and ignorance", I did not mean to simply insult, I was speaking literally. To 'ignore' something, is to have 'ignorance' of it. You advocate a policy in which we ignore China and isolate our markets from trade with them. I'm sorry you have that view, I have tried to convey some sense of reasoning here, and hopefully change your mind, but it is your view, I am only speaking truthfully about it. You endorse an isolationist ignorance of China, and claim you are doing so in the name of human rights. The problem is, your idea doesn't provide any solution to the problem, it simply chooses to be ignorant of it. Oh well... we can claim a 'moral' victory, I guess?

Hermes Thoth
02-21-2007, 03:56 AM
And there it is. Ignorant Isolationist. Putting sanctions on slave labor is "isolationism" now. See how mentally bankrupt he is? Total retard level.

When I said "isolation and ignorance", I did not mean to simply insult, I was speaking literally. To 'ignore' something, is to have 'ignorance' of it.

I fully understand your justifications. I think they're shortsighted and dangerous. Business arguments only go so far in justifying national security and sovereignty risks.



You advocate a policy in which we ignore China and isolate our markets from trade with them.

I suggest we make their huge orders contingent on human rights reforms.




I'm sorry you have that view, I have tried to convey some sense of reasoning here, and hopefully change your mind, but it is your view, I am only speaking truthfully about it.

You are using business arguments and ignoring facets of the issue which relate to long term survival of our nation, but you're an internationalist, so that's what I would expect. You see america's role as being to create a new world order. That's sad for you.




You endorse an isolationist ignorance of China, and claim you are doing so in the name of human rights. The problem is, your idea doesn't provide any solution to the problem, it simply chooses to be ignorant of it. Oh well... we can claim a 'moral' victory, I guess?

And your solution is to coprofit from totalitarian atrocity, which also fails your "litmus test", and to give up fighting for human rights at all, unless jews say to.

Hermes Thoth
02-21-2007, 03:59 AM
No "substantive" increase in human rights, yet they haven't cracked down on Hong Kong, they have opened areas to capitalism, a new Middle Class has grown over the years and people move more freely with more automobiles and highways than ever.

Yes there are restrictive laws, yes there is Tibet, yes China needs to make more strides, but not trading with them didn't make any of the above changes happen. Opening areas to capatilistic trade would have been unheard of, and as more of the population reaches the undreamed of "riches" included more and more of them will spread this to the rest of China. The idea that there have been "no" changes because of the trade is simply denial, and that you get so hysterical over it only undermines your argument.

Denying trade kept people in the dark as to what others have and allowed the government an ultimate power they no longer have. They did not crack down heavily on huge demonstrations in 2002, previous to 1972, shoot even in the 90s they simply would have run over them with tanks.

To say that nothing has changed there, and that there is not slow progression toward something new, maybe too slow for some, but far better than pre-trade.

We make better strides being over-friendly than we ever did attempting to be strict.

But you must prove trading with them HAS improved something. Plus, you neocon monkey grunters actively seeking to make the world dependant on china.


Freedom isn't about having stuff. Nor is it about gdp. DO you really condone the use of prison labor? It's amazing how many new laws pop up when prison labor is allowed. It's really sick you cannot be honest.

There have been no moves toward greater freedom for anyone.

Damocles
02-21-2007, 07:40 AM
But you must prove trading with them HAS improved something. Plus, you neocon monkey grunters actively seeking to make the world dependant on china.


Freedom isn't about having stuff. Nor is it about gdp. DO you really condone the use of prison labor? It's amazing how many new laws pop up when prison labor is allowed. It's really sick you cannot be honest.

There have been no moves toward greater freedom for anyone.
There have been moves towards greater freedom, I even listed them. You choose to dismiss them and point to the areas where nothing has been done. That I fully understand, it is however unprovable that nothing at all has been done as shown by examples given to you. Choosing to pretend that they do not exist and that magically those changes will exist by refusing to trade is going backwards in this case. Those new open markets would not exist without the trade we have with them.

I have not advocated prison labor and would suggest that we not trade with companies using such labor rather than cutting off all trade and remaking the total inability to effect any change that we had prior to 1972.

uscitizen
02-21-2007, 07:42 AM
That is right Ban prison labor, don't put a registration plate on your car.

Damocles
02-21-2007, 07:43 AM
That is right Ban prison labor, don't put a registration plate on your car.
I don't know of any place that still uses prisoners to make plates.

uscitizen
02-21-2007, 07:48 AM
Even if no one does Damo, how long has it been since we did use prison labor for plate making ?

I guess we are a bit ahead of China ?

Damocles
02-21-2007, 07:55 AM
Even if no one does Damo, how long has it been since we did use prison labor for plate making ?

I guess we are a bit ahead of China ?
If you were in prison would you prefer to actually do something worthwhile or would you rather sit and mark time?

The difference between "prison labor" here in the US and those in China is choice and condition as well as the reason they are imprisoned. How often have we imprisoned solely political prisoners and forced them to labor?

Here we can go down to the prison where they train mustangs, buy a good horse at a very reasonable price as they cannot profit from their work while there. The prisoners learn a skill most would never have thought to learn. This lowers the recidivism rate and benefits society. Prisoners can choose to enter the program, or work in more traditional prison roles, mopping, cooking, laundry, etc. I am unsure if they can actually choose to sit and rot, but it is very close to such a choice...

Many people in prison receive a bachelor's degree, how often does that happen in a Chinese prison? The labor there is the whole of their existence, it does not teach a skill and is not aimed at lowering recidivism.

uscitizen
02-21-2007, 08:02 AM
Colorado inmates: Making license plates since 1926
Gazette, The (Colorado Springs), Mar 5, 2006 by ANDREA BROWN THE GAZETTE

Rodney Serna's dad used to warn him that if he didn't behave, he'd wind up making license plates in prison.

He should've listened.

Serna, 33, serving life for murder, works at the "tag plant" inside Colorado Territorial Correctional Facility in Caon City.

"I never thought it was for real," he said, casting a slight smile at his fate as he bagged plates rolling off the assembly line.

The adage about inmates making license plates is a reality in most states.

In Colorado, they've been pounded out since 1926 at the state's oldest prison, which produces about 2 million plates a year for cars, trucks, motorcycles and trailers. Serna says it beats the other prison jobs he's had over 15 years.

"Mostly cellhouse porter jobs -- cleaning the pots, showers," he said. "This is pretty good."

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=license+plate+manufacturing+by +prisoners&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D5 f4510c3f1045060%26clickedItemRank%3D2%26userQuery% 3Dlicense%2Bplate%2Bmanufacturing%2Bby%2Bprisoners %26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.findart icles.com%252Fp%252Farticles%252Fmi_qn4191%252Fis_ 20060305%252Fai_n16146578%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResultsT%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.findarticles.com%2Fp%2 Farticles%2Fmi_qn4191%2Fis_20060305%2Fai_n16146578

uscitizen
02-21-2007, 08:09 AM
Vermont license plates returned to the Department by the public are recycled. DMV personnel collect and store the license plates after voiding any validation stickers. The plates are then transported to Vermont Correctional Industries where they are cut up to make them unusable. The scrap material is sold to a recycling company in New Hampshire who ships the scrap to a facility in the Mid-West where the aluminum is smelted for reuse.

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=license+plate+manufacturing+by +prisoners&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D9 a2b04737507ecf4%26clickedItemRank%3D3%26userQuery% 3Dlicense%2Bplate%2Bmanufacturing%2Bby%2Bprisoners %26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.aot.sta te.vt.us%252FDMV%252FABOUTUS%252FHISTORY%252FPlate History.htm%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResultsT%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aot.state.vt.us%2FDMV% 2FABOUTUS%2FHISTORY%2FPlateHistory.htm

uscitizen
02-21-2007, 08:14 AM
Prison Industry Authority of California

Environmental and Health Issues and Recommendations
Responsible Manufacturers:

* The Prison Industry Authority (PIA) strives to operate all of its manufacturing, service, and agricultural enterprises in a responsible, green manner. PIA's efforts help to conserve resources, reduce waste, control global warming, and prevent pollution. PIA products and services can be purchased by governmental entities.

* By providing inmates with real world work experience, PIA helps to prepare them for successful re-entry into society. In this sense, PIA is the ultimate recycler. PIA provides inmates with the training and experience necessary to recycle these inmates from their prior lives into productive citizens.

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=license+plate+manufacturing+by +prisoners&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Df beb6db533107218%26clickedItemRank%3D14%26userQuery %3Dlicense%2Bplate%2Bmanufacturing%2Bby%2Bprisoner s%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.green. ca.gov%252FEPP%252Fsources%252FPIA.htm%26invocatio nType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResultsT%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.green.ca.gov%2FEPP%2Fs ources%2FPIA.htm

uscitizen
02-21-2007, 08:15 AM
shall I continue the search ?

uscitizen
02-21-2007, 08:24 AM
Most license plates are still made in correctional institutions, although some states contract out plate manufacture to private companies.

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=license+plate+manufacturing+by +prisoners&page=2&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D7 bc7e65b8f02a8a5%26clickedItemRank%3D17%26userQuery %3Dlicense%2Bplate%2Bmanufacturing%2Bby%2Bprisoner s%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fscience.en otes.com%252Fhow-products-encyclopedia%252Flicense-plate%26invocationType%3Dnext%26fromPage%3DNSCPNex tPrevB%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fscience.enotes.com%2Fhow-products-encyclopedia%2Flicense-plate

uscitizen
02-21-2007, 08:36 AM
Damo you might want to check out a book.
Prisons: Today and tomorrow by Joycelyn Pollock

btw, you are owned.

Damocles
02-21-2007, 08:44 AM
shall I continue the search ?
Nah, I did say that I did not know of them not that they didn't exist. I know we get cheap horses at Canon City because of the program I outlined. Notice how the guy talks it up as better than swabbing and cooking?

Once again I ask you, what would you prefer if you were in prison. Sitting and counting dust specks or doing something? What are their hours comparitively? What is the reason they ended up in prison comparitively? Is it to keep them from being idle and thus rioting or to enforce a political teaching? All of these things will make a difference in how it is viewed. Shoot, prison workers in the US actually earn a minimal wage.

Damocles
02-21-2007, 08:47 AM
Damo you might want to check out a book.
Prisons: Today and tomorrow by Joycelyn Pollock

btw, you are owned.
Not really... What I am speaking to is the whole "prison labor" thing, to the reality of the differences between the two systems. What you are doing is showing that they make plates. Answer my questions and prove that prisoners in the US are subject to the same conditions as the prison labor in China and then we'll talk about "owned" or not. So far you haven't shown that conditions in US prisons are equitable to Chinese prisons, or given a reason that we should trade with companies who use such forced labor in Chinese prisons because it is supposedly the same.

Clearly they are not even close in condition, or in causation, or even in why they were sent to prison.

uscitizen
02-21-2007, 08:48 AM
Just pointing out that we use prison labor so it is false outrage to pick on another country for doing it. FL does not even pay it's prisoners for their labor.

Damocles
02-21-2007, 08:55 AM
Just pointing out that we use prison labor so it is false outrage to pick on another country for doing it. FL does not even pay it's prisoners for their labor.
Shoot, in the US, some of our call centers are in prisons.

uscitizen
02-21-2007, 09:02 AM
Also the fact that we have pretty much the highest percentage of our citizens in prison compared to the world does not speak well for our country.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-21-2007, 09:06 AM
But you must prove trading with them HAS improved something.

And you must prove that not trading with them WILL improve something!

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-21-2007, 09:09 AM
Also the fact that we have pretty much the highest percentage of our citizens in prison compared to the world does not speak well for our country.

I think it speaks very well for law enforcement. How did your pinhead ass get off on a discussion about prisoners and prison labor? Do you equate prisoners to slaves? It figures!

Damocles
02-21-2007, 09:36 AM
Also the fact that we have pretty much the highest percentage of our citizens in prison compared to the world does not speak well for our country.
It speaks strongly to the effectiveness of the "War on Drugs". Most in prison are there for non-violent crimes where they simply owned the wrong thing.

uscitizen
02-21-2007, 09:45 AM
But is our country really a democracy and doing the best for all of it's people when it locks up a high percentage of them ?
Of course those locked up no longer have a voice in our government either....

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-21-2007, 10:14 AM
But is our country really a democracy and doing the best for all of it's people when it locks up a high percentage of them ?
Of course those locked up no longer have a voice in our government either....

Boy oh boy, what a classic example of liberal pinheadedness! I suppose you think our government just willy-nilly goes out and rounds up heathens and throws them in jail, no trial, no charges, just on general fucking principle?

Maybe we should adopt a liberal policy with law enforcement... no arrests of any kind, if our percentage of imprisoned rises above a certain percent! We must keep that percentage down, so the real people have a voice in government! Murderers, rapists, it doesn't matter... let 'em go... we are over quota this month! Can't have too high a percentage of people locked up, it damages our constitutional rights!

What a fucking idiot!

Hermes Thoth
02-22-2007, 06:01 AM
But is our country really a democracy and doing the best for all of it's people when it locks up a high percentage of them ?
Of course those locked up no longer have a voice in our government either....

Boy oh boy, what a classic example of liberal pinheadedness! I suppose you think our government just willy-nilly goes out and rounds up heathens and throws them in jail, no trial, no charges, just on general fucking principle?

Maybe we should adopt a liberal policy with law enforcement... no arrests of any kind, if our percentage of imprisoned rises above a certain percent! We must keep that percentage down, so the real people have a voice in government! Murderers, rapists, it doesn't matter... let 'em go... we are over quota this month! Can't have too high a percentage of people locked up, it damages our constitutional rights!

What a fucking idiot!


I got a plan dixie, let's make them all manufacture goods for export and treat them like slaves, and then arrest more when we need to meet quota for the month. Those no good liberal layabouts have nothing better to do than be slaves for upright citizens like you.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-22-2007, 01:19 PM
I got a plan dixie, let's make them all manufacture goods for export and treat them like slaves, and then arrest more when we need to meet quota for the month. Those no good liberal layabouts have nothing better to do than be slaves for upright citizens like you.

You know what, that isn't a half bad idea. We could actually make people who were convicted of a crime by a jury of their peirs, do some hard labor while they are doing their time! I think it would be a lot more productive use of their time, than working out in the weight rooms, watching TV, or planning their appeal in the legal library of the prison. And you know, I bet some of these hoodlums we're locking up, would be a hell of a lot more detered from their lives of crime, if they knew and understood the punishment would be having to work like a Chinese slave. I bet CapYoAss Dadddy would be a little less likely to do the crime, knowing this was how he was going to do the time, don't you?

........Of course, being the LIBERAL you are, it is your belief that most of the people in prison did nothing wrong, and are merely victims of society and our uptight right-wing moral judgements.

Hermes Thoth
02-22-2007, 04:59 PM
I got a plan dixie, let's make them all manufacture goods for export and treat them like slaves, and then arrest more when we need to meet quota for the month. Those no good liberal layabouts have nothing better to do than be slaves for upright citizens like you.

You know what, that isn't a half bad idea. We could actually make people who were convicted of a crime by a jury of their peirs, do some hard labor while they are doing their time! I think it would be a lot more productive use of their time, than working out in the weight rooms, watching TV, or planning their appeal in the legal library of the prison. And you know, I bet some of these hoodlums we're locking up, would be a hell of a lot more detered from their lives of crime, if they knew and understood the punishment would be having to work like a Chinese slave. I bet CapYoAss Dadddy would be a little less likely to do the crime, knowing this was how he was going to do the time, don't you?

........Of course, being the LIBERAL you are, it is your belief that most of the people in prison did nothing wrong, and are merely victims of society and our uptight right-wing moral judgements.

No. I believe the use of prison labor will only lead to abuse of the legal system.

Thanks for exposing the reality of the New World Order. You have been a useful fool.

Hermes Thoth
02-22-2007, 06:51 PM
There's no better argument against the NWO than a neocon on hand to talk about it.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-22-2007, 11:28 PM
As I said, you look stunning in your tin foil hat! Enjoy it, pinhead!

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-22-2007, 11:40 PM
No. I believe the use of prison labor will only lead to abuse of the legal system.

Sorry you missed the sarcasm, another typical pinhead mistake.

Thanks for exposing the reality of the New World Order. You have been a useful fool.

Wow, I wasn't aware the New World Order had infiltrated our prison system, when did that happen? And how was I of use to them as a fool? You failed to explain that part. In fact, you've pretty much failed to explain anything in any of these threads, you merely resort to the typical pinhead responses and over-blown rhetoric.

I tell ya, AssHat, I would've saved myself the trouble of registering a new screen name, if this was the best I could do at fooling people. You are never going to convince me you aren't a flaming bleeding heart liberal, I can smell them a mile away, I tell you! Every post you make, you reveal another nuance, another indication you are a liberal at heart, and a contradiction of the persona you are trying to portray. I can't quite pin down who you are, but you are not a conservative, and you are not very open-minded, so I don't believe you are independent. My guess, you are either a pinhead libertarian, (maybe Beefy), or you are Lummox or rcfrom2d2 or dlescock, I can't decide. In any event, you have a nice time playing your little charade game here, you haven't fooled me one bit, though.

Hermes Thoth
02-23-2007, 04:52 PM
No. I believe the use of prison labor will only lead to abuse of the legal system.

Sorry you missed the sarcasm, another typical pinhead mistake.

Thanks for exposing the reality of the New World Order. You have been a useful fool.

Wow, I wasn't aware the New World Order had infiltrated our prison system, when did that happen? And how was I of use to them as a fool? You failed to explain that part. In fact, you've pretty much failed to explain anything in any of these threads, you merely resort to the typical pinhead responses and over-blown rhetoric.

I tell ya, AssHat, I would've saved myself the trouble of registering a new screen name, if this was the best I could do at fooling people. You are never going to convince me you aren't a flaming bleeding heart liberal, I can smell them a mile away, I tell you! Every post you make, you reveal another nuance, another indication you are a liberal at heart, and a contradiction of the persona you are trying to portray. I can't quite pin down who you are, but you are not a conservative, and you are not very open-minded, so I don't believe you are independent. My guess, you are either a pinhead libertarian, (maybe Beefy), or you are Lummox or rcfrom2d2 or dlescock, I can't decide. In any event, you have a nice time playing your little charade game here, you haven't fooled me one bit, though.

You apply your basically sound economic principles in an oversweeping ignorant manner. Economic growth isn't the be-all, end all of human pursuits. It is right and civilized to constrain business inside a moral context. You have given up on morality and adopted a "if you can't beat it join it" mentality towards evil. We could beat china, and you're a coward traitor and sellout for agreeing with the neocon appeasement package. Your mentality guarantees the prevalance of totalitarianism in our world.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-23-2007, 05:16 PM
You apply your basically sound economic principles in an oversweeping ignorant manner. Economic growth isn't the be-all, end all of human pursuits. It is right and civilized to constrain business inside a moral context. You have given up on morality and adopted a "if you can't beat it join it" mentality towards evil. We could beat china, and you're a coward traitor and sellout for agreeing with the neocon appeasement package. Your mentality guarantees the prevalance of totalitarianism in our world.

This just isn't true in any aspect. I have not given up on morality, or fighting for it, and I have explained how free trade with China is more conducive to effecting change in this area, than isolating ourselves and ignoring the problem. You can say 'we could beat China' but the fact is, China has become the #2 world superpower, while we practiced your strategy, so this is not actually true, we haven't beat China, and there is no reasonable cause to believe we ever will, unless we can establish some foothold or leverage with the Chinese government.

You continue to rant like a kook lunatic about the "neocon appeasement package" but Bill Clinton wasn't a neocon, as far as I am aware. He signed the MFN treaty with China, so how do you chalk this up to neocons? I don't understand that, and especially when I start delving into the issue of trade with China, and find it dates back to Truman and beyond. This is not some evil Halliburton conspiracy, with Dick Cheney at the helm, trying to control the world with some maniacal plot of a new world order, that is what you want to make it out to be, that is what you are suggesting over and over again, but that is just plain ignorance and stupidity, and anyone with the ability to research it, can find out the truth.

Of course, some people aren't really interested in truth, they just want to have things their way, and fuck the consequences. They just bully their way through the debates and insist they have some profound moral wisdom that trumps common sense and logic. They can't make their point, they can't back up their idiocy, and they simply resort to lobbing shit bombs at people, and attacking them personally, rather than being intellectually honest.

Hermes Thoth
02-23-2007, 05:21 PM
You apply your basically sound economic principles in an oversweeping ignorant manner. Economic growth isn't the be-all, end all of human pursuits. It is right and civilized to constrain business inside a moral context. You have given up on morality and adopted a "if you can't beat it join it" mentality towards evil. We could beat china, and you're a coward traitor and sellout for agreeing with the neocon appeasement package. Your mentality guarantees the prevalance of totalitarianism in our world.

This just isn't true in any aspect.

It's true in every aspect.



I have not given up on morality, or fighting for it,

Yes you have. You conceded that we cannot beat china, ever, and that all we can do is appease and hope for the best.




and I have explained how free trade with China is more conducive to effecting change in this area, than isolating ourselves and ignoring the problem.

No. You just keep claiming it's true. ALl I see is the continued profitablity of human slavery.



You can say 'we could beat China' but the fact is, China has become the #2 world superpower, while we practiced your strategy, so this is not actually true, we haven't beat China, and there is no reasonable cause to believe we ever will, unless we can establish some foothold or leverage with the Chinese government.

Exactly. You've conceded defeat and see cozying up to the dictators as the only strategy. You're a coward, and an appeaser. Why do you keep arguing with me when I describe you accurately?




You continue to rant like a kook lunatic about the "neocon appeasement package" but Bill Clinton wasn't a neocon, as far as I am aware. He signed the MFN treaty with China, so how do you chalk this up to neocons? I don't understand that, and especially when I start delving into the issue of trade with China, and find it dates back to Truman and beyond. This is not some evil Halliburton conspiracy, with Dick Cheney at the helm, trying to control the world with some maniacal plot of a new world order, that is what you want to make it out to be, that is what you are suggesting over and over again, but that is just plain ignorance and stupidity, and anyone with the ability to research it, can find out the truth.


It goes slightly deeper than the neocons, but they're the main advocates of the NWO at this point. Libs are too, in different ways.



Of course, some people aren't really interested in truth, they just want to have things their way, and fuck the consequences. They just bully their way through the debates and insist they have some profound moral wisdom that trumps common sense and logic. They can't make their point, they can't back up their idiocy, and they simply resort to lobbing shit bombs at people, and attacking them personally, rather than being intellectually honest.

Yeah, that's you.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-23-2007, 09:31 PM
It's true in every aspect.

Empty repudiation # 10034

Yes you have. You conceded that we cannot beat china, ever, and that all we can do is appease and hope for the best.

No, that is what you concede, that we can't beat China, and we must take the moral high ground, and oppose them. We must return to ignoring the problems in China and washing our moral hands of it completely. That is your position, mine is a position of effecting eventual political change in China, through free trade. With my position, there is no appeasement, we are not trading with China to give the Chinese anything, or capitulate to something they demand from us or even want. There can't be any appeasement, when there is nothing to appease. You want to view it as such, but here again, you can't support your argument with relevant fact.

No. You just keep claiming it's true. ALl I see is the continued profitablity of human slavery.

I've not claimed anything to be true, I have presented a logical premise to you, and asked you to refute it, or find the flaw in it, and you can't. It makes logical sense that we can effect more of a political change in China, with some means to leverage the Chinese government, than isolating ourselves and alienating the Chinese further. It makes more logical sense to absorb the Chinese goods into the world market, so that we have stability in the global market, as opposed to getting our brains kicked in trying to compete with them for the European trade. Whether we look at this from human rights, or economics, it makes better sense for us to engage the Chinese in diplomacy, foster a strong and mutual trade alliance, and eventually use that mutual interest to pressure for political reforms.

Exactly. You've conceded defeat and see cozying up to the dictators as the only strategy. You're a coward, and an appeaser. Why do you keep arguing with me when I describe you accurately?

No, I have repeatedly asked for you to articulate your alternative options, and you really don't have any. No one has conceded any defeat, the game has just begun from my perspective, you are still in the locker room, hoping to have the game cancelled so you can go home and lock your doors. Don't call me a coward!

It goes slightly deeper than the neocons, but they're the main advocates of the NWO at this point. Libs are too, in different ways.

Yes, and then there are the Illuminati... invisible little men from outer space... men in black, with little devices that wipe out your memory... they meet in a secret underground location at area 51... where they keep the alien bodies... and dick cheney goes when they say he is in an undisclosed location.... yes... they are all out to get us man... we can't trust anyone... they are listening to us at this very moment... shhh...

*whispers* i think we should stop talking about them now, or we might be putting our safety in jeopardy... we wouldn't want to end up like ron brown or vince foster, would we?

maineman
02-23-2007, 09:59 PM
hey dixie...you lying sack of shit...how is that redneck alabama version of google spellcheck working?

does it tell you that ASSHOLE is a word?

uscitizen
02-23-2007, 10:18 PM
hey dixie...you lying sack of shit...how is that redneck alabama version of google spellcheck working?

does it tell you that ASSHOLE is a word?

Yep in the AL version it is a synonym for liberal.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-23-2007, 10:23 PM
Yep in the AL version it is a synonym for liberal.

Yep, and not only that, but there is this picture of some guy holding a flag on top of a pyramid.... :P

maineman
02-23-2007, 10:29 PM
funny thing about liars....they never want to admit it, even when they are caught red handed.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-23-2007, 10:35 PM
I didn't lie about anything, you want me to make a screen shot?

maineman
02-23-2007, 10:39 PM
you lied about google spellchecker.

maineman
02-23-2007, 10:42 PM
all I can tell you is that when I type the following words in the quick reply box and hit google spellcheck here is what it looks like:

refudiate repudiate stupid stoopid

maineman
02-23-2007, 10:46 PM
now maybe Dixie does have some racist redneck version of google spellcheck that is only sold to idiots in alabama trailer parks...


or maybe he is too fucking "stoopid" to know how to use google spellcheck correctly...

or maybe he is a fucking slanderous shithead liar who tries to pawn off his own mistakes onto computer software rather than show the grace to admit he fucked up.


my money is on the last option...but then, putting my "money" on any bet with Dixie is like pissing up a fucking rope

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-24-2007, 12:11 AM
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/brooksshows/jpp/screenshot1.jpg

Now that I have shown you to be an absolute slanderous lying judgemental ass, and you have, yet again, reeled off another one of your insulting rants about me, I will put you on ignore, and never speak to you again. It's been fun, Goodbye.

Hermes Thoth
02-24-2007, 08:37 AM
It's true in every aspect.

Empty repudiation # 10034

Yes you have. You conceded that we cannot beat china, ever, and that all we can do is appease and hope for the best.

No, that is what you concede, that we can't beat China, and we must take the moral high ground, and oppose them. We must return to ignoring the problems in China and washing our moral hands of it completely. That is your position, mine is a position of effecting eventual political change in China, through free trade.

So when will we start demanding they stop slavery? After how many billions?




With my position, there is no appeasement, we are not trading with China to give the Chinese anything, or capitulate to something they demand from us or even want. There can't be any appeasement, when there is nothing to appease. You want to view it as such, but here again, you can't support your argument with relevant fact.


You're an appeaser because you feel we could not beat them in a real geopolitical face off, so you seek to placate them and hope they will change. This is appeasement AND idiocy too.



No. You just keep claiming it's true. ALl I see is the continued profitablity of human slavery.

I've not claimed anything to be true, I have presented a logical premise to you, and asked you to refute it, or find the flaw in it, and you can't. It makes logical sense that we can effect more of a political change in China, with some means to leverage the Chinese government, than isolating ourselves and alienating the Chinese further.

No, it doesn't make sense. when they can prosper in their their current behavior patterns , there is zero pressure to change.




It makes more logical sense to absorb the Chinese goods into the world market, so that we have stability in the global market, as opposed to getting our brains kicked in trying to compete with them for the European trade. Whether we look at this from human rights, or economics, it makes better sense for us to engage the Chinese in diplomacy, foster a strong and mutual trade alliance, and eventually use that mutual interest to pressure for political reforms.


But actually, you're only looking at it from an economic point of view. You give lip service to "effecting change" but you have no actual plan to do that. It's a lie.



Exactly. You've conceded defeat and see cozying up to the dictators as the only strategy. You're a coward, and an appeaser. Why do you keep arguing with me when I describe you accurately?

No, I have repeatedly asked for you to articulate your alternative options, and you really don't have any. No one has conceded any defeat, the game has just begun from my perspective, you are still in the locker room, hoping to have the game cancelled so you can go home and lock your doors. Don't call me a coward!

You are a coward. "we can't beat them" is the premise of your world view. That's cowardly.



It goes slightly deeper than the neocons, but they're the main advocates of the NWO at this point. Libs are too, in different ways.

Yes, and then there are the Illuminati... invisible little men from outer space... men in black, with little devices that wipe out your memory... they meet in a secret underground location at area 51... where they keep the alien bodies... and dick cheney goes when they say he is in an undisclosed location.... yes... they are all out to get us man... we can't trust anyone... they are listening to us at this very moment... shhh...

*whispers* i think we should stop talking about them now, or we might be putting our safety in jeopardy... we wouldn't want to end up like ron brown or vince foster, would we?

Hyperbolic mockery doesn't help you.

Cancel7
02-24-2007, 08:47 AM
The new world order is going to be great! Seriously, has anyone seen the brochure? You get a free time-share in Florida and it's not like the 'other' time-shares either, you can count on that.

This is the best comment on this thread. I love it.

The rest of the thread is making my head spin. I can't follow a debate between Dixie and someone who is actually rational, there is no way I can follow this one.

Hermes Thoth
02-24-2007, 08:52 AM
This is the best comment on this thread. I love it.

The rest of the thread is making my head spin. I can't follow a debate between Dixie and someone who is actually rational, there is no way I can follow this one.

Yeah. I liked that too! lol. Said is a real firecracker!

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-24-2007, 12:04 PM
I can't follow a debate between Dixie and someone who is actually rational, there is no way I can follow this one.

Yeah, I know, it's hard enough for a dingbat liberal to follow my debates with rational people, it must be damn near impossible to follow my debate with a lunatic. Good point!

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-24-2007, 12:22 PM
You are a coward. "we can't beat them" is the premise of your world view. That's cowardly.

Actually, that would be YOUR view. You can't see, for the life of you, how free trade with China can eventually effect a change through diplomatic pressure. You don't think it possible. In fact, you really offer no solution to the human rights problem in China, you just want to ignore it and wash your hands of it, and pretend it isn't happening. This is precisely because you don't believe we can beat them, short of going to war. I happen to believe we can beat them, and without firing a shot. Through political pressure, with billions of dollars in trade at stake, and a mutual interest to leverage the Chinese with, a reform of the conditions in China is possible. Your solution is to take away something they never had, and hope it persuades them. The problem is, that hasn't worked for the past 100 years with China, and it won't ever work, there is no logical reason for it to work.

Now, you want to reel off another insulting hate-filled rant against me, that's fine, I can deal with it, but you are not making any points in the debate, you are not articulating any sort of credible viewpoint, and you have not refuted any point I have made so far.

Hermes Thoth
02-24-2007, 01:54 PM
You are a coward. "we can't beat them" is the premise of your world view. That's cowardly.

Actually, that would be YOUR view. You can't see, for the life of you, how free trade with China can eventually effect a change through diplomatic pressure. You don't think it possible. In fact, you really offer no solution to the human rights problem in China, you just want to ignore it and wash your hands of it, and pretend it isn't happening. This is precisely because you don't believe we can beat them, short of going to war. I happen to believe we can beat them, and without firing a shot. Through political pressure, with billions of dollars in trade at stake, and a mutual interest to leverage the Chinese with, a reform of the conditions in China is possible. Your solution is to take away something they never had, and hope it persuades them. The problem is, that hasn't worked for the past 100 years with China, and it won't ever work, there is no logical reason for it to work.


Now, you want to reel off another insulting hate-filled rant against me, that's fine, I can deal with it, but you are not making any points in the debate, you are not articulating any sort of credible viewpoint, and you have not refuted any point I have made so far.
I've won this debate. You just can't see that. I don't see how profitting from slave labor will end it, nobody does but you brainwashed neocon automatons. I don't think your "diplomacy" will be effective. It never is.

Hermes Thoth
02-24-2007, 01:59 PM
"Who are you, AssHatZombie?!"

I'm like noone you're met before, ma'am. You need a lift?

Damocles
02-24-2007, 02:24 PM
I've won this debate. You just can't see that. I don't see how profitting from slave labor will end it, nobody does but you brainwashed neocon automatons. I don't think your "diplomacy" will be effective. It never is.
Which is why I suggested trading only with the companies in the new free trade zones, their experiment in actual capitalism where the citizens own the factories and the employees are paid. Enforcing right action with positive result is always better than punitive. Negative reinforcement tends to work best if the recipient is under 5, it didn't work well in the past, it won't in the future.

Hermes Thoth
02-24-2007, 02:38 PM
Which is why I suggested trading only with the companies in the new free trade zones, their experiment in actual capitalism where the citizens own the factories and the employees are paid. Enforcing right action with positive result is always better than punitive.


No, it's not. Punitive often works.



Negative reinforcement tends to work best if the recipient is under 5, it didn't work well in the past, it won't in the future.

This is just unsubstianted speculations and negativism. It's just your way of warping minds into thinking there are no other options. Yours is not the only way. And in fact, your way is bad and shitty.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-24-2007, 03:00 PM
I've won this debate. You just can't see that.

Oh, I can see where you believe you've won the debate, I am just having difficulty finding the evidence to support that notion here. You have done a swell job of repudiating me personally, and calling me a bunch of names because you disagree with me. The pinheads are proud of you, no doubt!

I'm really trying hard to see your points, but you really haven't made any. You keep insisting that we can't trade with China because of the human rights issue, but you fail to explain how our isolationist policy is going to effect a change. If I tell you I have a better plan for something, it requires that I show you how my plan is better, I can't simply repudiate your plan and proclaim mine better, it doesn't work that way in the real world.

I'm starting to think you are Agnosticus Caesar, he is the only other hard head I've ever known, who establishes himself as the victor of an argument based on a complete lack of substance and armed with only his profound pinhead wisdom... and continues to argue from that perspective! It's as if we are all to genuflect toward you and accept your word as holy or something! No proof, no evidence to support your outrageous claims... Because you said it, makes it so! We are not to question your profound wisdom, we are just supposed to take your word for it, that you are smarter than the rest of us, and what you say has relevance, just because it came out of your profound and wise mouth!

Hermes Thoth
02-24-2007, 03:38 PM
I've won this debate. You just can't see that.

Oh, I can see where you believe you've won the debate, I am just having difficulty finding the evidence to support that notion here.

Start at the beginning. THere's no better place.



You have done a swell job of repudiating me personally, and calling me a bunch of names because you disagree with me. The pinheads are proud of you, no doubt!

And don't forget the incisive pinpointing of the distortions in your thinking.



I'm really trying hard to see your points, but you really haven't made any. You keep insisting that we can't trade with China because of the human rights issue, but you fail to explain how our isolationist policy is going to effect a change.

My main concern is not allowing the totalitarian ethos to spread to the west through collusion with it, and world financial instutitutions putting us out of business and into a state of dependance by purposefully manipulating currency and market conditions to achieve that end.


If I tell you I have a better plan for something, it requires that I show you how my plan is better, I can't simply repudiate your plan and proclaim mine better, it doesn't work that way in the real world.


I believe your plan can do nothing other than actively make the situation worse. In that condition, I choose other policies. I believe they are superior. Your belief in chinese strength over and above american strength is warping your ability to see other options. You are a traitorous appeaser, don't forget.



I'm starting to think you are Agnosticus Caesar, he is the only other hard head I've ever known, who establishes himself as the victor of an argument based on a complete lack of substance and armed with only his profound pinhead wisdom... and continues to argue from that perspective! It's as if we are all to genuflect toward you and accept your word as holy or something! No proof, no evidence to support your outrageous claims... Because you said it, makes it so! We are not to question your profound wisdom, we are just supposed to take your word for it, that you are smarter than the rest of us, and what you say has relevance, just because it came out of your profound and wise mouth!


That doesn't sound like me, because my victory was real.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-24-2007, 04:50 PM
in you mind alone, it was real.

For the record... you have made no valid point.

You can't explain how isolationism will effect any change in China policy.
You can't explain how returning to this policy will produce different results.
You can't offer any solution to the problem with your strategy.
You can't refute common sense and logic I've presented.
You can't even articulate your points without using sleaze and slime on me.

You've not won anything, you've not made a single point, you haven't refuted a single point, and all you essentially have, is insults, put-downs, and over-blown conspiratorial theories you've obtained from some liberal kook blog site. You expect everyone to just accept your word for things, you haven't backed up a thing you've said with facts or evidence to support it, and you simply repudiate anything that disagrees with your wrongheadedness. You are stubborn, arrogant, and rude, and I have spent enough time on this with you, so I will let it stand at that, and you can go on thinking you won the debate if you like, but the record speaks for itself here.

Hermes Thoth
02-24-2007, 04:57 PM
in you mind alone, it was real.

For the record... you have made no valid point.

You can't explain how isolationism will effect any change in China policy.
You can't explain how returning to this policy will produce different results.
You can't offer any solution to the problem with your strategy.
You can't refute common sense and logic I've presented.
You can't even articulate your points without using sleaze and slime on me.

You've not won anything, you've not made a single point, you haven't refuted a single point, and all you essentially have, is insults, put-downs, and over-blown conspiratorial theories you've obtained from some liberal kook blog site. You expect everyone to just accept your word for things, you haven't backed up a thing you've said with facts or evidence to support it, and you simply repudiate anything that disagrees with your wrongheadedness. You are stubborn, arrogant, and rude, and I have spent enough time on this with you, so I will let it stand at that, and you can go on thinking you won the debate if you like, but the record speaks for itself here.

Im not an isolationist. Being against trade with ONE nation is not isolationism. You oafish manchild.

I have won the debate. your neocon gobledy gook either fades away into abstract intimations of future diplomacy and alleged bargaining power or negativistic defeatist soliloquies of appeasement. One moment you say we will change them with method x, then you say we can't change them, but we can just profit. Hee hee. Evil isn't cool. You can't even decide which facet of the person to appeal to, thus your message is mixed. You're a shitty propagandist. The truth is flawless.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-24-2007, 05:41 PM
...and yet another AssHat post with empty rhetoric, liberal insults and put-downs, over-blown exaggeration, and irrelevant platitudes, while not addressing the issues or points directly or otherwise.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-24-2007, 05:51 PM
And you've not 'won' a damn thing, you just keep repeating the same mindless shit over and over, and repudiating any one who doesn't agree. You haven't given us one single solitary idea or suggestion, other than... we shouldn't trade with China because it's bad! I'm sorry, but that doesn't suffice as reasonable justification for any damn thing I know of. You can't refute any of the points I have made about leverage, diplomacy, markets, or effecting a political change, you simply repudiate it on face value and move on. I'm sorry, but that is not how any debate I've ever known of, has been won.

What you are attempting to do now, is proclaim yourself victorious and close the book on this debate, because you realize you have lost badly. I have handed you your ass every way possible, and you continue to deny it's your ass, and insist you have the upper hand. You are incredibly stubborn, I will grant you that, and you sure have a lot of balls to be proclaiming victory here, when everyone can see you've not made a case for your viewpoint. Of course, that is typical of a liberal pinhead... just remain stubborn and arrogant, keep hurling the personal insults, and keep repeating the same mindless blather without addressing the points!

Hermes Thoth
02-24-2007, 06:22 PM
And you've not 'won' a damn thing, you just keep repeating the same mindless shit over and over, and repudiating any one who doesn't agree. You haven't given us one single solitary idea or suggestion, other than... we shouldn't trade with China because it's bad! I'm sorry, but that doesn't suffice as reasonable justification for any damn thing I know of. You can't refute any of the points I have made about leverage, diplomacy, markets, or effecting a political change, you simply repudiate it on face value and move on. I'm sorry, but that is not how any debate I've ever known of, has been won.

What you are attempting to do now, is proclaim yourself victorious and close the book on this debate, because you realize you have lost badly. I have handed you your ass every way possible, and you continue to deny it's your ass, and insist you have the upper hand. You are incredibly stubborn, I will grant you that, and you sure have a lot of balls to be proclaiming victory here, when everyone can see you've not made a case for your viewpoint. Of course, that is typical of a liberal pinhead... just remain stubborn and arrogant, keep hurling the personal insults, and keep repeating the same mindless blather without addressing the points!


I have won. I have explained myself over and over. It's wrong morally and from a national security perspective, and for the long term existence of the american standard of living. I reject your idea of increasing our interactions with them to both a) profit from the slavery or b) exert some influence you allege will be gained through doing so. In the first case I believe it to be morally wrong. and in the second case i don't believe the influence will be there.
My other related complaint is allowing american production capacity to go extinct, and for america to become dependant on hostile powers. YOu never address any of this.

you just go back to calling me an isolationist, which I'm not, and being unreasonable, which you are.

Damocles
02-24-2007, 11:37 PM
No, it's not. Punitive often works.


This is just unsubstianted speculations and negativism. It's just your way of warping minds into thinking there are no other options. Yours is not the only way. And in fact, your way is bad and shitty.
Unsubstantiated? What are you talking about? Pick up a history book. In what way was China even close to allowing open trade where citizens owned the proceeds before we began trade?

The mustard seed grows an awful mighty tree, the beginnings may be small but the end result will be a far more free society in the long-run. However, ending all trade with China just to make a point will end up with a return to the past policy which China tends to lean towards anyway.

Just as our sanctions worked so well with Cuba, so would it go with China. There would be no recourse for the citizen, only abuses.

We are supposed to learn something from history, and personally I am result oriented. I can refuse to trade with companies who use prison or slave labor, while working with the newly allowed open trade areas with companies who pay their workers. You can pretend that we can return to the policy that enforced their power and gave no incentive to change to a more free capatalistic system, but I can see the results, that these small changes are just a beginning and once the ball really gets rolling even the Chinese government will not be able to stop it.

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-24-2007, 11:48 PM
It's no use Damo, we've been repudiated here by the all-knowing AssHat! Don't you understand? Logic and reason mean nothing, it's all dependant upon what the smartest man on Earth thinks, and if we disagree, we are just a bunch of neocon fascist retards, and that's all there is to it! Don't bother trying to make a point, you have no points worthy of making, and any point you can try to make, can easily be repudiated by the great one! He's proven his ability to do this over and over, haven't you understood that yet???

Hermes Thoth
02-25-2007, 06:38 AM
It's no use Damo, we've been repudiated here by the all-knowing AssHat! Don't you understand? Logic and reason mean nothing, it's all dependant upon what the smartest man on Earth thinks, and if we disagree, we are just a bunch of neocon fascist retards, and that's all there is to it! Don't bother trying to make a point, you have no points worthy of making, and any point you can try to make, can easily be repudiated by the great one! He's proven his ability to do this over and over, haven't you understood that yet???

You tell me how our business, which they don't need now, allegedly, will be a bargaining chip in the future, but isn't now. This is the double secret neocon switcheroo, it's classified, right?


oh, and if you could go over how production is a fixed quantity again. That would probably be entertaining.

uscitizen
02-25-2007, 10:04 AM
I can refuse to trade with companies who use prison or slave labor
//

No ya can't Damo, your registration plate on your vehicle is prison made :)

But is that a company or a corporation or both ?

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-25-2007, 12:16 PM
You tell me how our business, which they don't need now, allegedly, will be a bargaining chip in the future, but isn't now. This is the double secret neocon switcheroo, it's classified, right?


oh, and if you could go over how production is a fixed quantity again. That would probably be entertaining.

Sure, I can go over it again... in a totalitarian system, people don't have the right to work or not work, everyone works. They don't have unemployment in China, they don't have welfare or food stamps, people have to work to live. If they aren't working, they are dead and thus, can't produce. The only way for them to increase production is to reproduce.

Now, to the bargaining chip for the future... If you bought a house last week, and you've only made one payment on it, with very little down, and you go to the bank to get an equity loan, the bank has no motivation to give you any money, as you have no equity built up in the house. You can threaten the bank, tell them you will take your business elsewhere, and they will simply say... Buh-Bye! Now, in 20 years, you can go to the very same bank, and get a substantial equity loan on the house, the bank is then motivated to give you money, because you have built up equity. The same thing is true with trade and business, it takes time to develop 'equity' and establish some level of trust with China, as well as an ever-increasing mutual financial investment and tie. In 20 years, those entanglements will act as a motivating factor for China, whereas now, there isn't enough 'equity' built up, and it simply doesn't matter to them, they are not motivated by the potential loss of US trade, just as the bank would not be motivated by the loss of your business in the previous example.

Now, explain for us, how sticking our heads in the sand and pretending China doesn't exist, is ever going to change the human condition in China? Explain to us how we are supposed to leverage the Chinese to change, when we have nothing to motivate them with? Explain how US workers will have more jobs in the future making $4 widgets for export, when the Chinese are flooding the European markets with their $2 widgets? And explain why your pea-brain idea is better than the current US trade policy, in all the areas we've discusses, human rights, national security, and economics?

I want you to EXPLAIN these things in specific detail, not simply throw out some liberal platitudes and prance around on your moral high horse. Anyone can do that! I could sit here and bitch about the conditions in China too! I could make the argument that we should simply refuse to trade with any nation that trades with China! I could say, the US would be better off only trading with CHRISTIAN nations, and no one else! People can SAY a lot of shit... it's providing a reasonable argument for what you are saying, that really matters! So, let's hear it... give us your profound explanation, O' Wise One!

Hermes Thoth
02-25-2007, 12:30 PM
Sure, I can go over it again... in a totalitarian system, people don't have the right to work or not work, everyone works. They don't have unemployment in China, they don't have welfare or food stamps, people have to work to live. If they aren't working, they are dead and thus, can't produce. The only way for them to increase production is to reproduce.

Now, to the bargaining chip for the future... If you bought a house last week, and you've only made one payment on it, with very little down, and you go to the bank to get an equity loan, the bank has no motivation to give you any money, as you have no equity built up in the house. You can threaten the bank, tell them you will take your business elsewhere, and they will simply say... Buh-Bye! Now, in 20 years, you can go to the very same bank, and get a substantial equity loan on the house, the bank is then motivated to give you money, because you have built up equity. The same thing is true with trade and business, it takes time to develop 'equity' and establish some level of trust with China, as well as an ever-increasing mutual financial investment and tie. In 20 years, those entanglements will act as a motivating factor for China, whereas now, there isn't enough 'equity' built up, and it simply doesn't matter to them, they are not motivated by the potential loss of US trade, just as the bank would not be motivated by the loss of your business in the previous example.

Now, explain for us, how sticking our heads in the sand and pretending China doesn't exist, is ever going to change the human condition in China? Explain to us how we are supposed to leverage the Chinese to change, when we have nothing to motivate them with? Explain how US workers will have more jobs in the future making $4 widgets for export, when the Chinese are flooding the European markets with their $2 widgets? And explain why your pea-brain idea is better than the current US trade policy, in all the areas we've discusses, human rights, national security, and economics?

I want you to EXPLAIN these things in specific detail, not simply throw out some liberal platitudes and prance around on your moral high horse. Anyone can do that! I could sit here and bitch about the conditions in China too! I could make the argument that we should simply refuse to trade with any nation that trades with China! I could say, the US would be better off only trading with CHRISTIAN nations, and no one else! People can SAY a lot of shit... it's providing a reasonable argument for what you are saying, that really matters! So, let's hear it... give us your profound explanation, O' Wise One!


Not everyone in china is a slave, but with increased demands the creation of new slaves by whatever means is incentivized. if it was true that everyone in china was a slave you would be correct, but that 's not true. It could still be worse. They've haven't maxed out on inhumanity quite yet, but they're driven to increase it with the increase demand our orders creates.

It is not fixed; EVERYONE is not a slave, yet. IS that your actual goal?

Damocles
02-25-2007, 05:41 PM
I can refuse to trade with companies who use prison or slave labor
//

No ya can't Damo, your registration plate on your vehicle is prison made :)

But is that a company or a corporation or both ?
Once again a difference. Prison labor in the US is voluntary on many levels. Those who work with the plates do so because they don't want to stare at walls all day, not because they are forced to.

Now, were they sent to prison because of political issues then were forced to make Nikes or something I'd agree with this particular similarity, but since they are quite different in actual effect it becomes a silly comparison on its face. A nation could refuse to allow trade with companies that use slave labor and/or forced prison labor. Saying that it is an all or nothing approach, that using the carrot rather than the stick never worked simply laughs in the face of history....

Dixie - In Memoriam
02-25-2007, 07:42 PM
if it was true that everyone in china was a slave you would be correct, but that 's not true.

Really? Gee wiz, I must have a totally different concept of totalitarianism, because I wasn't aware that some people in Communist Red China had freedoms! Well... if THIS is the case, we need not worry, if some people have tasted freedom, it will spread like wildfire! In just a short time, China will be a legitimate democracy!

Again, from the history books to the encyclopedia, China is a totalitarian Communist country, the people have no freedom, they do not decide when and where to work, the government tells them. No one in China, aside from the political class, sits on their ass waiting for the government to take care of them, they are ALL workers for the COMMUNist government!!!!

Your liberal vision requires you to believe the Chinese people are just like you and I, only they have a mean old government interrupting their personal lives! You are about as full of shit as a Christmas turkey, and you've demonstrated it well in this thread. None of your arguments meet the test of logic or common sense, when it comes to addressing the problems of human rights in China, national security, foreign relations, global economics, or any damn thing else! It's another pathetic attempt to tug at the heartstrings of liberals, and drum up faux concerns about problems you simply wish to ignore.


Speaking of 'ignore'... I notice.... no EXPLANATION on your part... yet again!

Hermes Thoth
02-26-2007, 06:00 AM
if it was true that everyone in china was a slave you would be correct, but that 's not true.

Really? Gee wiz, I must have a totally different concept of totalitarianism, because I wasn't aware that some people in Communist Red China had freedoms! Well... if THIS is the case, we need not worry, if some people have tasted freedom, it will spread like wildfire! In just a short time, China will be a legitimate democracy!

Again, from the history books to the encyclopedia, China is a totalitarian Communist country, the people have no freedom, they do not decide when and where to work, the government tells them. No one in China, aside from the political class, sits on their ass waiting for the government to take care of them, they are ALL workers for the COMMUNist government!!!!

Your liberal vision requires you to believe the Chinese people are just like you and I, only they have a mean old government interrupting their personal lives! You are about as full of shit as a Christmas turkey, and you've demonstrated it well in this thread. None of your arguments meet the test of logic or common sense, when it comes to addressing the problems of human rights in China, national security, foreign relations, global economics, or any damn thing else! It's another pathetic attempt to tug at the heartstrings of liberals, and drum up faux concerns about problems you simply wish to ignore.


Speaking of 'ignore'... I notice.... no EXPLANATION on your part... yet again!


Nobody has constitutional rights, but NOT EVERYONE is a prisoner slave maxed out on capacity. Can you understand the difference? Anyone could be made a slave at any moment, at the government's whim basically, to accomodate increased production demands, but not everyone is a slave yet. Can you get it, Corky?
You're also ignoring the dimension of time. even if everyone were a slave, which they aren't, more and continued orders would profitize the expansion of the slavery going forward in time.


Let's retrace your logical stack of dysfunction. You're saying everyone's a slave, so you can say their production is maxed, so you can say our orders don't increase their business. You're screwed in the head.

uscitizen
02-26-2007, 09:26 AM
Once again a difference. Prison labor in the US is voluntary on many levels. Those who work with the plates do so because they don't want to stare at walls all day, not because they are forced to.

Now, were they sent to prison because of political issues then were forced to make Nikes or something I'd agree with this particular similarity, but since they are quite different in actual effect it becomes a silly comparison on its face. A nation could refuse to allow trade with companies that use slave labor and/or forced prison labor. Saying that it is an all or nothing approach, that using the carrot rather than the stick never worked simply laughs in the face of history....
Is the war on drugs a political issue Damo ?

Umm I think cunningham goes to prison on a political issue.

Where is the dividing line ?

uscitizen
02-26-2007, 09:30 AM
The USA has probably the highest percentage of it's population in prison or on parole, compared to the rest of the countries in the world. Is it because we are that much more evil than the rest of the world ?

Damocles
02-26-2007, 09:53 AM
Is the war on drugs a political issue Damo ?

Umm I think cunningham goes to prison on a political issue.

Where is the dividing line ?
It can be. Which still does not address the issue of the fact that they are not forced into such labor. And there would be the dividing line.

uscitizen
02-26-2007, 10:07 AM
But some are forced into prison on political grounds....
And some states do not even pay the inmates for their work. some do, which is good it allows them to build a stake to help when they are released.
Throw a broke criminal out on the street and chances are they will be back.
As to whether they are forced or not, well that is likely to be a matter of interpretation.

Damocles
02-26-2007, 10:20 AM
But some are forced into prison on political grounds....
And some states do not even pay the inmates for their work. some do, which is good it allows them to build a stake to help when they are released.
Throw a broke criminal out on the street and chances are they will be back.
As to whether they are forced or not, well that is likely to be a matter of interpretation.
Once again, it depends entirely on what you call a political reason. Writing a book endorsing a free society is clearly a political issue. Muling drugs, not quite so clear.

Who in the US has been imprisoned for writing a book endorsing a free society?

Attempting to equate these two and then saying that it is slave labor when it isn't is simply political exaggeration for effect. It is clearly not the same thing if they have the choice whether or not to work in that area, which they do or it becomes "cruel and unusual" punishment.

uscitizen
02-26-2007, 10:26 AM
Damo, why do we have such a higher percentage of our population in prison if it is not politically motivated ?
Are we that much more evil than the rest of the world ?

Damocles
02-26-2007, 10:47 AM
Damo, why do we have such a higher percentage of our population in prison if it is not politically motivated ?
Are we that much more evil than the rest of the world ?
Because we choose to convict for drug crimes. As I said, those are clearly not so easily determined to be only political. There are many arguments that they make for it. Those who use rob people for money, etc.

Pretending that this makes the difference and therefore one cannot buy license plates is flatly laughable. They choose to work in that section, it isn't slave labor.

uscitizen
02-26-2007, 11:03 AM
Laughable ? Ever been in prison ? hmmm....

Damocles
02-26-2007, 11:35 AM
Laughable ? Ever been in prison ? hmmm....
Nope. When was the last time you were in a Chinese prison for writing a book and forced to make t-shirts to sell to Americans for the profit of the government?

uscitizen
02-26-2007, 11:48 AM
Never been in one, spent some stickade time though ;)
So how are either one of us knowledgeable enough to decide what is truth and what is fiction about china and her psion system ?
One thing is certain it will not be up to our specs as the rest of China is not either.
Israel locks up several political prisoners....Is there any racial bias involved here ?

Damocles
02-26-2007, 12:03 PM
Never been in one, spent some stickade time though ;)
So how are either one of us knowledgeable enough to decide what is truth and what is fiction about china and her psion system ?
One thing is certain it will not be up to our specs as the rest of China is not either.
Israel locks up several political prisoners....Is there any racial bias involved here ?
Nope. I disagree with it there too and think that we shouldn't trade with companies that would use them as slave labor at the time that they are political prisoners.

I would also state unequivocally that they don't get our aid without changes in human rights issues. Therefore I would never be elected President as that issue seems to be one that the populace disagrees with me.

Oh, and we can read those books and hear tales of those who actually were prisoners there to get a good idea of what happens in Chinese prisons.

uscitizen
02-26-2007, 12:21 PM
I wish that Republican bill of several years ago had passed. It was going to cut off aid to countries with human rights problems. Repubs puched it hard till it was discovered that it would cut off aid to Israel, the bill died really fast after that.
Religion before human rights.

Hermes Thoth
03-02-2007, 04:46 PM
I wish that Republican bill of several years ago had passed. It was going to cut off aid to countries with human rights problems. Repubs puched it hard till it was discovered that it would cut off aid to Israel, the bill died really fast after that.
Religion before human rights.
What are you, some kind of jew hating nazi?:cool:
You should know better than to point out the jew beaten mindset of these self hating white neocons. Baby boomers are the worst. Completely brainwashed.

Dixie - In Memoriam
03-02-2007, 10:25 PM
Anyone could be made a slave at any moment, at the government's whim basically, to accomodate increased production demands...

Oh sure, they just go down to the town square and round up a few of the unemployed deadbeats with nothing to do, right? Or maybe they pull people away from realizing their Chinese Dream of running their own Chinese Laundry? Yeah, I am sure there are tons of people just sitting around China with nothing else to do except be made slaves by the Government! And if it weren't for Evil Ol' Uncle Sam, these poor people would be completely left alone by the Government, because they don't really need the extra production now, and had rather let these poor people live their lives in peace and do as they please. That makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you explained it to me!

Hermes Thoth
03-03-2007, 06:09 AM
Anyone could be made a slave at any moment, at the government's whim basically, to accomodate increased production demands...

Oh sure, they just go down to the town square and round up a few of the unemployed deadbeats with nothing to do, right? Or maybe they pull people away from realizing their Chinese Dream of running their own Chinese Laundry? Yeah, I am sure there are tons of people just sitting around China with nothing else to do except be made slaves by the Government! And if it weren't for Evil Ol' Uncle Sam, these poor people would be completely left alone by the Government, because they don't really need the extra production now, and had rather let these poor people live their lives in peace and do as they please. That makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you explained it to me!


There could be more people made into slaves. They're not ALL SLAVES already, as you idiotically assert to maintain your idiotic theories.