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Hermes Thoth
02-01-2007, 06:10 AM
Mormons are freemasons and thus Noahides. They wish to bring you under jew servitude. I will furnish proof of anything you doubt.



http://www.freemason.org/cfo/may_june_2001/mormon.htm
Mormonism and Freemasonry are so intimately interwoven and interrelated that the two can never be dissociated. Mormonism was born in the throes of the holocaust provoked by the Anti-Masonic Morgan affair of 1826. What I shall attempt to cover is the period from the beginning of Mormonism is the 1820's, with its early Masonic ties, through social and political upheaval in New York State tied into the so-called Morgan Affair, the establishment and marriage of Freemasonry and Mormonism in Nauvoo, Illinois; the assassination of Joseph Smith by members of the Masonic Fraternity, the subsequent exodus to Utah by Brigham Young, the rejection of Mormonism by Utah Freemasonry, and finally the coming of universal Freemasonry to Utah.

uscitizen
02-01-2007, 07:58 AM
Mitt is a Republican, And a politician, why would I trust him anyway ?

Damocles
02-01-2007, 01:17 PM
Mormons are Freemasons? Wha? I do know of one Mormon who is a Freemason, but definitively I can tell you, not all mormons are Freemasons. In fact, at least half of them cannot be.

Augustine
02-02-2007, 03:07 AM
There are elements of Freemasonry in the Mormon Temple ceremonies...

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 05:44 AM
Mormons are Freemasons? Wha? I do know of one Mormon who is a Freemason, but definitively I can tell you, not all mormons are Freemasons. In fact, at least half of them cannot be.

The mormon leadership will mislead their people into the hands of satan when the time comes.

http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time." 4

Damocles
02-02-2007, 09:05 AM
There are elements of Freemasonry in the Mormon Temple ceremonies...
When people meet they shake hands, therefore there are "elements" of Freemasonry. This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever seen. If all it took to make Freemasons was an "element" every single person on the planet could then be considered Freemasons.

The Catholic church considers all Freemasons apostate, yet in their ceremonies you can find similarities to some of the Freemason Ceremonies (you can find similarities in almost any ceremony to another ceremony), they too must be Freemasons...

uscitizen
02-02-2007, 09:09 AM
There are probably a couple of elements of the mormon worship that is the same as satanic worship as well :)
Same for the christian worship, etc...

Damocles
02-02-2007, 09:13 AM
There are probably a couple of elements of the mormon worship that is the same as satanic worship as well :)
Same for the christian worship, etc...
Oh, yeah. The Satanic Church uses wafers in their communion ceremony, much like the christians use wafers. That is an element of Christianity in Satanism, so they must really be Christians!

Dang!

There is a donation box in Buddhist Temples, much like in Catholic Churches. That is an element of similarity. Therefore All Buddhists, though they don't believe in God, don't confess to priests, do not seek forgiveness in that manner, are all Christians... or are all Christians Buddhists, I'm not quite sure how this "element of" thing works. It seems that whatever is more "evil" corrupts the other, and "evil" is comprised of those things not specifically to AHZ's beliefs on Freemasonry. Therefore, since all Buddhists temples give to Charity as do all Christian Churches, they must ALL BE FREEMASONS!!!1111SHIFT+1!!1!

OMGZ!!!1!!11!!!SHIFT+1!!1!

:rolleyes:

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 04:37 PM
Oh, yeah. The Satanic Church uses wafers in their communion ceremony, much like the christians use wafers. That is an element of Christianity in Satanism, so they must really be Christians!

Dang!

There is a donation box in Buddhist Temples, much like in Catholic Churches. That is an element of similarity. Therefore All Buddhists, though they don't believe in God, don't confess to priests, do not seek forgiveness in that manner, are all Christians... or are all Christians Buddhists, I'm not quite sure how this "element of" thing works. It seems that whatever is more "evil" corrupts the other, and "evil" is comprised of those things not specifically to AHZ's beliefs on Freemasonry. Therefore, since all Buddhists temples give to Charity as do all Christian Churches, they must ALL BE FREEMASONS!!!1111SHIFT+1!!1!

OMGZ!!!1!!11!!!SHIFT+1!!1!

:rolleyes:


Your silliness and hyperbole do nothing to obviate the truth of the masonic roots of mormonism. I'll take you to the mat again, dude. Just name a time and place. Your denials are pathetic and only prove my correctness.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 05:48 PM
Your silliness and hyperbole do nothing to obviate the truth of the masonic roots of mormonism. I'll take you to the mat again, dude. Just name a time and place. Your denials are pathetic and only prove my correctness.
Your conspiracy theories are lame. They are based on some of the least powerful people that I know who only give to charity. They are based on suspicion and unreasonable fear of the unknown, even though they aren't unknown... Everybody that I know, knows at least one Freemason. Usually far more of them. Instead of judging on experience and understanding of the people that they actually meet, those who believe in these inane theories welcome any thought that "a small number" of them are somehow controlling the world in some sort of negative fashion.

One is not allowed to speak of politics in a Freemasonry meeting. The control nothing but their own money which they give freely when it is deemed that people are in need.

Why have you such a need to blame others for things that go wrong? We vote for people that refuse to keep our borders, shoot that refuse to even see a need for it. Blame it on the Freemasons and a minority of Jewish people! It must be THEM... A desperate need for THEM to exist is what this is based on. It makes people believe the most inane things rather than what their own experience and knowledge of a person, or many for that matter, may be.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 05:57 PM
It is true that the man who started that religion was a Freemason, but that is about the only connection at all to Freemasonry other than they have ceremonies that have some "elements" of "freemasonry" in them.

That is just plain silly, all ceremonies of a type have elements of other ceremonies of that same type in them. Hence my reference to the communion wafer used in Aleister Crowley's Satanic ritual of Communion (which involves other elements that are clearly not Christian, much like Mormon ceremonies contain other elements that are not Freemasonry but I digress here).

Attempting to make similar elements in a ceremony that the founder of the religion saw and somewhat imitated, like almost all people use elements of what they learned from the past, doesn't make the LDS church into Freemasons, it in fact makes them into Priests, as you would know if you knew anything at all about the religion.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 06:05 PM
It is true that the man who started that religion was a Freemason, but that is about the only connection at all to Freemasonry other than they have ceremonies that have some "elements" of "freemasonry" in them.

That is just plain silly, all ceremonies of a type have elements of other ceremonies of that same type in them. Hence my reference to the communion wafer used in Aleister Crowley's Satanic ritual of Communion (which involves other elements that are clearly not Christian, much like Mormon ceremonies contain other elements that are not Freemasonry but I digress here).

Attempting to make similar elements in a ceremony that the founder of the religion saw and somewhat imitated, like almost all people use elements of what they learned from the past, doesn't make the LDS church into Freemasons, it in fact makes them into Priests, as you would know if you knew anything at all about the religion.


I don't care about the cereomonies. It's the jew worship that freemasonry/noahidism/dispensationalism condones that bothers me. You stupid goy are turning off your brains to become subservient jew pawns.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 06:13 PM
I don't care about the cereomonies. It's the jew worship that freemasonry/noahidism/dispensationalism condones that bothers me. You stupid goy are turning off your brains to become subservient jew pawns.
There is no "Jew worship" that I have ever seen evident in Freemasonry. Do you think Thomas Jefferson was a "Jew worshiper"? How about George Washington? Which of them started "Jew Worship" as the national religion?

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 06:46 PM
There is no "Jew worship" that I have ever seen evident in Freemasonry. Do you think Thomas Jefferson was a "Jew worshiper"? How about George Washington? Which of them started "Jew Worship" as the national religion?


They were all secret society types, Which are all based around the infernal teachings of pharisaic judaism, pure satanic elitism.

First google noahidism. Then remind yourself that the 21'st degree of freemasonry is the patriarch noachite. Then google the articles about the masons wanting to rebuild the temple at jerusalem. If you deny any of these links, i will post the research for you and embarrass the crap out of you. K, pumpkin?

Damocles
02-02-2007, 07:23 PM
They were all secret society types, Which are all based around the infernal teachings of pharisaic judaism, pure satanic elitism.

First google noahidism. Then remind yourself that the 21'st degree of freemasonry is the patriarch noachite. Then google the articles about the masons wanting to rebuild the temple at jerusalem. If you deny any of these links, i will post the research for you and embarrass the crap out of you. K, pumpkin?
I don't need to Google up your conspiracy sites, if you wish to convince others you bring your information to them. I have read your sites and have previously schooled you on this subject. Your ignorance of Freemasonry scares you, you are clearly afraid of that which you don't understand. It simply is inane to call a Fraternal order that concerns itself with charity some sort of "satanism" just because you haven't become a member and refuse to use your actual experience with Freemasons as a guide to who they are and how they act. Instead giving them far more power than they ever will have, and speaking of them as some sort of huge world-running conspiracy.

As I said, go and meet them, talk to them, find out about them from them, you will find that they are men who are strong in their religion, whichever one it is. That they care about others and give to charity through their Fraternal Order. They will tell you of their experience with Freemasonry, but you don't want to hear. Instead you find a site that gives fake information about some inane "conspiracy" to run the world from a tiny nation of a couple million people. Along with this small minority of people that control less than the state of Rhode Island, they run the government of the largest nation of the world from ever-shrinking membership in lodges they somehow take over the minds of the rest of the world, convincing everybody that an even smaller minority of that previous minority, who want some sort of Messiah to come and kill us all, is really the ones to listen to...

Man, you really are in need of a good therapist. Just make sure you go to one that isn't Jewish, you'll be sucked into the world of Mormons and have to believe in Christ... And spend all your time posting how noachides are actually going to take over the world from their extremely small group of believers that have actually done nothing to you or anybody else....

I cannot imagine living with this amount of paranoia. It is truly sad.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 07:33 PM
I don't need to Google up your conspiracy sites,

They're not all "conspiracy sites". Many of them are legitimate noahide sites, spreading noahide doctrine and run by rabbis or "righteous gentiles".




if you wish to convince others you bring your information to them.

I'm bringing my information here. I invite anyone to google noahide and start reading. It's quite bizarre.



I have read your sites and have previously schooled you on this subject.

Yet you're misrpresenting them. They're not all "wacko" sites. All you do is deny hysterically like a little girl. School yourself.



Your ignorance of Freemasonry scares you, you are clearly afraid of that which you don't understand.


You explained many times. All they want is that you worship a single god. They just don't say which one. Turns out it's satan.



It simply is inane to call a Fraternal order that concerns itself with charity some sort of "satanism" just because you haven't become a member and refuse to use your actual experience with Freemasons as a guide to who they are and how they act.

You're one dude. You're just in denial. All they care about is power and our governments are churches are overrun with these satanic vermin.



Instead giving them far more power than they ever will have, and speaking of them as some sort of huge world-running conspiracy.


They are a huge world running conspiracy.



As I said, go and meet them, talk to them, find out about them from them, you will find that they are men who are strong in their religion, whichever one it is.


I do talk to them. I talk to you. If they're all like you, they're in complete denial and act like children when confronted with the truth.



That they care about others and give to charity through their Fraternal Order. They will tell you of their experience with Freemasonry, but you don't want to hear. Instead you find a site that gives fake information about some inane "conspiracy" to run the world from a tiny nation of a couple million people. Along with this small minority of people that control less than the state of Rhode Island, they run the government of the largest nation of the world from ever-shrinking membership in lodges they somehow take over the minds of the rest of the world, convincing everybody that an even smaller minority of that previous minority, who want some sort of Messiah to come and kill us all, is really the ones to listen to...

Ya see, the way hierarchies work is that a small number control many people. Like a pyramid. Like on the dollar bill.



Man, you really are in need of a good therapist. Just make sure you go to one that isn't Jewish, you'll be sucked into the world of Mormons and have to believe in Christ... And spend all your time posting how noachides are actually going to take over the world from their extremely small group of believers that have actually done nothing to you or anybody else....

I cannot imagine living with this amount of paranoia. It is truly sad.

Or you could quit lying. Do you want to read the forum where the rabbi is saying "yes, we must unfortunately behead christians.

Your diarrhea of words is completely ineffective in shutting out the truth.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 07:52 PM
They're not all "conspiracy sites". Many of them are legitimate noahide sites, spreading noahide doctrine and run by rabbis or "righteous gentiles".

I'm bringing my information here. I invite anyone to google noahide and start reading. It's quite bizarre.


But you aren't. You want others to go and do something. Bring it here. Show us those sites that are so engrossing to the paranoid. I invite you to go to your local lodge, meet the people you prejudge, and judge from experience.



Yet you're misrpresenting them. They're not all "wacko" sites. All you do is deny hysterically like a little girl. School yourself.

You explained many times. All they want is that you worship a single god. They just don't say which one. Turns out it's satan.


Rubbish. The only place you find that sentiment is from the conspiracy sites that you say "all of them aren't" which definitively states that most of them are, and the ones that aren't are groups of people who want to desperately believe that they will somehow overcome their powerless status through a Paladin they name the Messiah.



You're one dude. You're just in denial. All they care about is power and our governments are churches are overrun with these satanic vermin.


This only tells me that you never have met one, other than me. It is silly. Just go and watch them go into a lodge during a meeting. You will find that none are the all-powerful men that you want them so desperately to be.



They are a huge world running conspiracy.

I do talk to them. I talk to you. If they're all like you, they're in complete denial and act like children when confronted with the truth.


No, children take a mishmash of conspiracy sites and desperate people who wish for power in their powerlessness and pretend they've found the machine that runs the world.




Ya see, the way hierarchies work is that a small number control many people. Like a pyramid. Like on the dollar bill.


LOL. That small number of people that are Freemasons simply do not even seek the power that you pretend that they have. Only the desperate in denial of reality who want no responsibility for their own actions blame the problems of even something so small as a nation on the powerless minority.



Or you could quit lying. Do you want to read the forum where the rabbi is saying "yes, we must unfortunately behead christians.


And have you noticed that noahides are the smallest portion of Judaism? That almost all Jews preach against such violence, even to the point of naming this small minority among them as evil?



Your diarrhea of words is completely ineffective in shutting out the truth.

Talking to yourself again?

This is inane. While a small portion of the world are given the responsibility to run things, they do not all come from the smallest of minorities of the smallest of minorities. They simply cannot have the proportional power necessary to take over the planet. Especially when over half the nations of the world are against them.

Again a desperate attack on what you refuse to even investigate further than your conspiracy sites and sites that promote the minority belief of an extremely minority religion...

There are far larger and more dangerous fish to fry in this world than a powerless minority that has yet to saw the head off of one Christian man, as opposed to a much larger, not minority religion that has members that actually have sawed off the heads of Christian men.

Look to those who actually have the power and act on it, rather than the minute possibility of the tiny minority of the smallest minority group suddenly gaining all the power you wish that they had so hiding wouldn't look so foolish.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 07:59 PM
It would be like a Buddhist living in fear because they read a neo-nazi site promoting the death of all things not white including those "slanty-lovers" who convert to Buddhism and pretending that all Christians are taking over the entire planet, even in Japan, because of these people saying this.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 08:11 PM
But you aren't. You want others to go and do something. Bring it here. Show us those sites that are so engrossing to the paranoid. I invite you to go to your local lodge, meet the people you prejudge, and judge from experience.

Yes, i want others to go and do something. Go see for yourselves what noahide means. Then read the well publicized teachings of freemasonry, which are noahide and elitist.





Rubbish. The only place you find that sentiment is from the conspiracy sites that you say "all of them aren't" which definitively states that most of them are, and the ones that aren't are groups of people who want to desperately believe that they will somehow overcome their powerless status through a Paladin they name the Messiah.

Rubbish? So you 're british now? what a poseur.

http://noahide.com/ check this one. THere are tons of other noahide sites.

Oh, the poor powerless jews. boo fricking hoo. Do you believe your own lies?





This only tells me that you never have met one, other than me. It is silly. Just go and watch them go into a lodge during a meeting. You will find that none are the all-powerful men that you want them so desperately to be.

Most of you are idiotic dupes who really don't know what going on.





No, children take a mishmash of conspiracy sites and desperate people who wish for power in their powerlessness and pretend they've found the machine that runs the world.


No. Reasonable people believe it's more likely that a powerful elite shapes world events rather than believe that "shit happens".





LOL. That small number of people that are Freemasons simply do not even seek the power that you pretend that they have. Only the desperate in denial of reality who want no responsibility for their own actions blame the problems of even something so small as a nation on the powerless minority.


Oh the powerless minority. Perhaps you don't understand how hierarchies work. Through hierarchies, the small number at the top control the vast majority at the bottom. That's how all modern governments are. WHo's really the idiot here?





And have you noticed that noahides are the smallest portion of Judaism? That almost all Jews preach against such violence, even to the point of naming this small minority among them as evil?


What violence are you speaking of? ANd which jews are preaching against it? can you provide a link? I have.




Talking to yourself again?

I might as well be, once you go into "deflect and defame" mode.



This is inane. While a small portion of the world are given the responsibility to run things, they do not all come from the smallest of minorities of the smallest of minorities. They simply cannot have the proportional power necessary to take over the planet. Especially when over half the nations of the world are against them.

The biggest power is the control of the worlds financial apparatus, and the control of monetray policy. Again, minorities are always in control. These are the same arguments that were stupid before.



Again a desperate attack on what you refuse to even investigate further than your conspiracy sites and sites that promote the minority belief of an extremely minority religion...

Again, you misrepresenting what's out there. There are plenty of legitimate noahide sites. The power of the jews is mulitplied immensely by the power seeking righteous gentiles who just want power or are duped by wrong teachings in christian church.



There are far larger and more dangerous fish to fry in this world than a powerless minority that has yet to saw the head off of one Christian man, as opposed to a much larger, not minority religion that has members that actually have sawed off the heads of Christian men.


Islam is bad too, you have no problem there. True christianity stand against the elitist hierarchies that have invaded all organized religions, including "christianity" itself.

If all this were so silly, your panties wouldn't be in such a wad.



Look to those who actually have the power and act on it, rather than the minute possibility of the tiny minority of the smallest minority group suddenly gaining all the power you wish that they had so hiding wouldn't look so foolish.

I am. Im looking at the coalition of freemasons, noahides, jews, and evangelicals. That's enough to do us all in.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 08:13 PM
If you want them to read the sites then bring them here. That you don't want to post them just shows that you are afraid of your sourcing.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 08:19 PM
It would be like a Buddhist living in fear because they read a neo-nazi site promoting the death of all things not white including those "slanty-lovers" who convert to Buddhism and pretending that all Christians are taking over the entire planet, even in Japan, because of these people saying this.

Except criticizing neonazis is allowed and encouraged. Referring to jews as anything but victims is just not allowed, because of the extent of their mind control. Break free, little goy.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 08:24 PM
If you want them to read the sites then bring them here. That you don't want to post them just shows that you are afraid of your sourcing.


http://www.noahide.com

http://www.moshiach.com

http://www.noahide.org/

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/noahide.html

http://www.noahidenations.com/

http://www.asknoah.org/

http://www.inner.org/noahide/noach1.htm

http://www.schuellerhouse.com/noahres.htm

http://www.allfaith.com/Religions/Noahide/


Your very own google search on noahide (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=noahide&btnG=Search)

Damocles
02-02-2007, 08:30 PM
Yes, i want others to go and do something. Go see for yourselves what noahide means. Then read the well publicized teachings of freemasonry, which are noahide and elitist.

Rubbish? So you 're british now? what a poseur.

http://noahide.com/ check this one. THere are tons of other noahide sites.

Oh, the poor powerless jews. boo fricking hoo. Do you believe your own lies?


I disbelieve yours.




Most of you are idiotic dupes who really don't know what going on.


Again, talking to yourself? Most people who believe those silly sites are gullible dupes predisposed toward that type of paranoia because they desperately want everything that goes wrong to be somebody else's fault.



No. Reasonable people believe it's more likely that a powerful elite shapes world events rather than believe that "shit happens".


How foolish. I didn't say that the powerful don't shape events, I said that only those who are desperate to blame somebody less powerful than them, are the ones that believe such powerless people rule the world.



Oh the powerless minority. Perhaps you don't understand how hierarchies work. Through hierarchies, the small number at the top control the vast majority at the bottom. That's how all modern governments are. WHo's really the idiot here?


Clearly you. I already told you that a small number of people that are among the majority rule the world. I also told you that only a moron believes that a tiny minority (noahides) of a tiny majority (Jews) can control the rest of the world. They don't even have enough support within their tiny minority to even seize power there and so they dream of the day that their messiah will come and save them all. You then read their sites as they dream of the power they will never have, and then you spread it as if it is something to actually fear.



What violence are you speaking of? ANd which jews are preaching against it? can you provide a link? I have.


No you haven't. You have asked me to provide them for you.



I might as well be, once you go into "deflect and defame" mode.


Right, like when you attempt to blame Freemasonry for all that is wrong with the world?



The biggest power is the control of the worlds financial apparatus, and the control of monetray policy. Again, minorities are always in control. These are the same arguments that were stupid before.


Rubbish. Once again, a small number of people run things, but they are of the majority. Smaller number does not mean that the powerless suddenly have all the control. Smaller numbers of the majority control those things.



Again, you misrepresenting what's out there. There are plenty of legitimate noahide sites. The power of the jews is mulitplied immensely by the power seeking righteous gentiles who just want power or are duped by wrong teachings in christian church.


Then post them. And the power of the Jews is simply not really there unless you desperately want to believe that noahides, which are a small minority of the Jews out there, actually are the sole owners of all the banks, etc. This is inane, those sites are run by those who desperately want the power they'll never have.



Islam is bad too, you have no problem there. True christianity stand against the elitist hierarchies that have invaded all organized religions, including "christianity" itself.

If all this were so silly, your panties wouldn't be in such a wad.


The only panty wad here is in your pants. Seriously. "Go and look it up, because I know that the sites I provide are all silly conspiracies and desperate hopeless men who want a messiah to solve all their problems because they know that they cannot." is not an argument. It is a panty wad.



I am. Im looking at the coalition of freemasons, noahides, jews, and evangelicals. That's enough to do us all in.

Right a nonsensical "coalition" of mismatched groups? I'm looking at a silly conspiracy theorist. I should create a Conspiracy Forum on the site and move this to it.

Let's say this, I have read the sites you gave links to long ago on another site. They were sad little men pretending to be strong while knowing they had no power and paranoid conspiracy theories. I have read them before on another site that actually is all about conspiracies... Either way I remain wholly skeptical for the very real reasons I have provided above.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 08:37 PM
Anyway the strongest movement of these "noahides" is the Chabad-Lubavitch movement, it is considered a cult by Jewish people across the world.

They are a racist movement much like the KKK, hence my suggestion of reading the KKK site and then being shocked how Christians promote violence on all things not "white"... It is almost exactly the same, except there are far more Christians in the KKK than Jews in this cult that you are so paranoid of.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 08:40 PM
I disbelieve yours.

What am I lying about? Hysterical denials are not an effective rebuttal.





Again, talking to yourself? Most people who believe those silly sites are gullible dupes predisposed toward that type of paranoia because they desperately want everything that goes wrong to be somebody else's fault.

Your label and dismiss strategy is failing. It's not paranoia to recognize who controls what in the world. It's actually responsible living.





How foolish. I didn't say that the powerful don't shape events, I said that only those who are desperate to blame somebody less powerful than them, are the ones that believe such powerless people rule the world.

Jews, freemasons, evangelicals, and one world order types are all very powerful. Given that, I don't know what you're yammering about.





Clearly you. I already told you that a small number of people that are among the majority rule the world. I also told you that only a moron believes that a tiny minority (noahides) of a tiny majority (Jews) can control the rest of the world. They don't even have enough support within their tiny minority to even seize power there and so they dream of the day that their messiah will come and save them all. You then read their sites as they dream of the power they will never have, and then you spread it as if it is something to actually fear.

A majority of people rule the world? what are you talking about. they have the power, as evidence by your steadfast and idiotic denial in the face of all evidence.





No you haven't. You have asked me to provide them for you.


I have provided links. and evidence. and compelling argumentation, and all you provide in return is diarrhea of the mouth. Go brush your teeth.





Right, like when you attempt to blame Freemasonry for all that is wrong with the world?

I blame the diabolical conspiracy of which freemasonry is an integral part.





Rubbish. Once again, a small number of people run things, but they are of the majority. Smaller number does not mean that the powerless suddenly have all the control. Smaller numbers of the majority control those things.

But they are noahides and freemasons, (same thing) who are jew worshippers. Noahidism is a race cult intended for all, with jews as the master race.





Then post them. And the power of the Jews is simply not really there unless you desperately want to believe that noahides, which are a small minority of the Jews out there, actually are the sole owners of all the banks, etc. This is inane, those sites are run by those who desperately want the power they'll never have.

I have. And noahides are not jews, you ignorant ass.




The only panty wad here is in your pants. Seriously. "Go and look it up, because I know that the sites I provide are all silly conspiracies and desperate hopeless men who want a messiah to solve all their problems because they know that they cannot." is not an argument. It is a panty wad.

You obviously don't know, becasue you're completely wrong.





Right a nonsensical "coalition" of mismatched groups? I'm looking at a silly conspiracy theorist. I should create a Conspiracy Forum on the site and move this to it.

They're not mismatched, they're united by a talmudic/kabbalistic worldview.



Let's say this, I have read the sites you gave links to long ago on another site. They were sad little men pretending to be strong while knowing they had no power and paranoid conspiracy theories. I have read them before on another site that actually is all about conspiracies... Either way I remain wholly skeptical for the very real reasons I have provided above.

You obviously have not.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 08:40 PM
Basically noahidism is like wahabbism, just without the actual power...

Unless you live in Quebec.

http://www.ety.com/HRP/racehate/goyimdead.htm

Notice:

The websites of HRP and of the NATIONAL JOURNAL denounce this kind of race hate. The following examples show what hate can do when it is allowed to operate under the guise of "religion":

Etc. I read your silly sites. I also read other ones, and understand what a small minority and how even Jewish people are against his cult. It's okay, you can breathe deeply and find another minority group to blame the running of the world on...

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 08:41 PM
Anyway the strongest movement of these "noahides" is the Chabad-Lubavitch movement, it is considered a cult by Jewish people across the world.

They are a racist movement much like the KKK, hence my suggestion of reading the KKK site and then being shocked how Christians promote violence on all things not "white"... It is almost exactly the same, except there are far more Christians in the KKK than Jews in this cult that you are so paranoid of.

That's what they say for public consumption. The lubavitchers are just willing to tell the truth about pharisaic/rabbinical judaism.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 08:43 PM
Basically noahidism is like wahabbism, just without the actual power...

Unless you live in Quebec.

http://www.ety.com/HRP/racehate/goyimdead.htm

Notice:

The websites of HRP and of the NATIONAL JOURNAL denounce this kind of race hate. The following examples show what hate can do when it is allowed to operate under the guise of "religion":

Etc. I read your silly sites. I also read other ones, and understand what a small minority and how even Jewish people are against his cult. It's okay, you can breathe deeply and find another minority group to blame the running of the world on...


So someone denounces them. So what. Mass unwillingness to even consider this aspect of judaism is the danger. You denied it until I embarrassed you by truthing you out hard core.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 08:48 PM
What am I lying about? Hysterical denials are not an effective rebuttal.

Your label and dismiss strategy is failing. It's not paranoia to recognize who controls what in the world. It's actually responsible living.

Jews, freemasons, evangelicals, and one world order types are all very powerful. Given that, I don't know what you're yammering about.

A majority of people rule the world? what are you talking about. they have the power, as evidence by your steadfast and idiotic denial in the face of all evidence.

I have provided links. and evidence. and compelling argumentation, and all you provide in return is diarrhea of the mouth. Go brush your teeth.


You have yet to provide even one site. This is getting seriously unsettling. The person who supposedly has given sites has yet to provide even one link to anywhere on the internet? Give me a break. You have provided nothing but speculation and a reference to sites that are totally non-existent here. You have provided nothing but that same "diarrhea of the mouth".

I have actually provided a site talking of the evils of the tiny cult that doesn't control the world, you have provided not even one iota. This is because you know that the sites you provide are exactly as I describe.




I blame the diabolical conspiracy of which freemasonry is an integral part.


Whatever, I give you the opportunity to know about freemasonry. Those on this site know I am not "evil" and not some sort of "diabolical" world leader.



But they are noahides and freemasons, (same thing) who are jew worshippers. Noahidism is a race cult intended for all, with jews as the master race.


No noahides are not the same thing as Freemasons. Even the sites that post the rituals of Freemasonry make no claim. This is truly desperate, RWA, you are usually better than this. What has made you fade so much?



I have. And noahides are not jews, you ignorant ass.


And you cannot understand English. They are the smallest minority of that small minority which are the Jews.

Amazing. I have yet to use curse words at all.... Or to use any other than the very words you use to "describe" me towards you. Why do the desperate always resort to the name-calling?




You obviously don't know, becasue you're completely wrong.

They're not mismatched, they're united by a talmudic/kabbalistic worldview.


They are not. I have given you what Freemasonry is about, that you so desperately want to believe that they run the world doesn't change the truth, it just makes you look silly and desperate.




You obviously have not.

Ah, but I have. And I actually provided a link, unlike the other clearly disingenuous poster in this thread.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 08:50 PM
http://www.noahide.com

http://www.moshiach.com

http://www.noahide.org/

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/noahide.html

http://www.noahidenations.com/

http://www.asknoah.org/

http://www.inner.org/noahide/noach1.htm

http://www.schuellerhouse.com/noahres.htm

http://www.allfaith.com/Religions/Noahide/


Your very own google search on noahide (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=noahide&btnG=Search)

bump. you must have missed this.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 08:52 PM
bump. you must have missed this.
Must have.

However, I posted a story that mentioned their cult, and gave those same links. It puts them in a perspective that you seem to miss. First that they ARE a jewish Cult, just as Koresh was a Christian Cult. They are not even close to followed by most Jews. And, in fact, most Jews are against what they stand for.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 08:55 PM
Must have.

However, I posted a story that mentioned their cult, and gave those same links. It puts them in a perspective that you seem to miss. First that they ARE a jewish Cult, just as Koresh was a Christian Cult. They are not even close to followed by most Jews. And, in fact, most Jews are against what they stand for.

They teach straight out of the talmud, the actual real book of rabbinical judaism. It actually takes precedence over the old testament. Do you want to argue about that?

You're buying into the massive spin job.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 08:57 PM
They teach straight out of the talmud, the actual real book of rabbinical judaism. It actually takes precedence over the old testament. Do you want to argue about that?

You're buying into the massive spin job.
So do the KKK members teach directly from the Bible.

It does not make them the all-powerful leaders of the world and controllers of all Christianity any more than it makes noahides the controllers of all things Jewish. They are a cult, a small one, a tiny minority among a small minority to begin with. Desperate for power they pretend that when their Messiah comes he will follow their beliefs rather than teach them to follow his.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 08:57 PM
Hey Damo, is Patriarch Noachite the 21 st degree of freemasonry?

What is the role of the jew and non jew according to noahide teaching?

Isn't something a race if you're considered one if you're mother is one? That's not religion. That's race.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 08:59 PM
Hey Damo, is Patriarch Noachite the 21 st degree of freemasonry?

What is the role of the jew and non jew according to noahide teaching?

Isn't something a race if you're considered one if you're mother is one? That's not religion. That's race.
Chevalier Prussian (Prussian Knight) is the 21st degree, as far as I know.

What is the role of the non-white according to the "christian" teachings of the KKK.

Ohh. I see. You think Patriarch Noachite is the same as your noahides? LOL. It actually also translates to Prussian Knight.

It teaches Justice. As Knight and Mason it is our bound duty to shield and protect the innocent.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 08:59 PM
So do the KKK members teach directly from the Bible.

It does not make them the all-powerful leaders of the world and controllers of all Christianity any more than it makes noahides the controllers of all things Jewish. They are a cult, a small one, a tiny minority among a small minority to begin with. Desperate for power they pretend that when their Messiah comes he will follow their beliefs rather than teach them to follow his.


Apples and oranges. go make fruit salad.

They're not a tiny cult. Look at you, you're totally in it.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 09:03 PM
Chevalier Prussian (Prussian Knight) is the 21st degree, as far as I know.

What is the role of the non-white according to the "christian" teachings of the KKK.

To be less than and subservient to whites. and I admit it's an abominable teaching. Can you admit noahidism is real and that it teaches the same double standard? And can you admit the obvious disparity in public perception of the two groups?

http://www.100megsfree2.com/jjscherr/scherr/Freemasonrydegrees.htm

it's Patriarch Noachite.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 09:05 PM
Apples and oranges. go make fruit salad.

They're not a tiny cult. Look at you, you're totally in it.
They are about the same size as the KKK among Christians. And they are not apples and oranges. That is just plain foolish. It is clear how they are a very good analogy.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 09:06 PM
To be less than and subservient to whites. and I admit it's an abominable teaching. Can you admit noahidism is real and that it teaches the same double standard? And can you admit the obvious disparity in public perception of the two groups?

http://www.100megsfree2.com/jjscherr/scherr/Freemasonrydegrees.htm

it's Patriarch Noachite.
I admit it is real and that it is abominable, but I realize that they have no power among the Jews that they attempt to convert. No more power than the KKK has over Christians.

And Patriarch Noachite translates to Prussian Knight, just as Chevalier Prussian does. What is wrong with you? Can you seriously not read?

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 09:08 PM
I admit it is real and that it is abominable, but I realize that they have no power among the Jews that they attempt to convert. No more power than the KKK has over Christians.

And Patriarch Noachite translates to Prussian Knight, just as Chevalier Prussian does. What is wrong with you? Can you seriously not read?

SO what word does Noachite translate into? You're so full of shit.


They're not converting jews. They're converting non jews to become jew slaves. Please do some reading. You cannot argue with someone you must educate.

http://torahsearch.com/page.cfm/1469 here's a good set of links

Damocles
02-02-2007, 09:24 PM
SO what word does Noachite translate into? You're so full of shit.


They're not converting jews. They're converting non jews to become jew slaves. Please do some reading. You cannot argue with someone you must educate.

http://torahsearch.com/page.cfm/1469 here's a good set of links
I am not "full of shit" as you so desperately want to believe.

here is a nice link for you:

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/AASR_1884_/21st_degree_noachite_or_prussian_knight.htm

Noachite translates to Knight.

Notice specifically what the degree teaches, it has nothing at all to do with your noahides. I would agree they were the same if they actually were, but they are totally not even close.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 09:24 PM
I admit it is real and that it is abominable,

and yet



http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Noachide
The Seven Laws of Noah have officially been recognised in the American Congress "Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded; Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 09:25 PM
I am not "full of shit" as you so desperately want to believe.

here is a nice link for you:

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/AASR_1884_/21st_degree_noachite_or_prussian_knight.htm

Noachite translates to Knight.

Notice specifically what the degree teaches, it has nothing at all to do with your noahides. I would agree they were the same if they actually were, but they are totally not even close.

Knights are servanst too. Just like noahides.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 09:26 PM
That degree is also called the "Masonic Key" as it teaches Justice... I guess that makes Freemasons that continue into outside bodies into really bad men.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 09:27 PM
and yet
Notice that it is a "t" there and not a "d", that is because it is a different word. It translates differently. Especially when used in historical context rather than as a portion of that cult.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 09:28 PM
That degree is also called the "Masonic Key" as it teaches Justice... I guess that makes Freemasons that continue into outside bodies into really bad men.

Yes. They are obsessed with the law, as the pharisees in jesus's day. Controlling the law is ultimate control. Freemasonry is a satanic sham.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 09:28 PM
Knights are servanst too. Just like noahides.
Knights were simply the police of the past. You are attempting to rewrite history now. Chevaliers were not anything other than those appointed to uphold the law of the land.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 09:29 PM
Yes. They are obsessed with the law, as the pharisees in jesus's day. Controlling the law is ultimate control. Freemasonry is a satanic sham.
Rubbish. Read the link, it has nothing to do with control of the law. You are obsessed and clearly misunderstand actual English.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 09:34 PM
Rubbish. Read the link, it has nothing to do with control of the law. You are obsessed and clearly misunderstand actual English.

You are obviously believing the cover story of a satanic power hungry organization that pulls the string behind all the worlds atrocities.

Ever wonder why there are so many jewish lawyer? "JUSTICE", the noachide laws. or Knight Laws if you will, martial law. Global fascism.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 09:36 PM
You are obviously believing the cover story of a satanic power hungry organization that pulls the string behind all the worlds atrocities.

Ever wonder why there are so many jewish lawyer? "JUSTICE", the noachide laws. or Knight Laws if you will, martial law. Global fascism.
And with that... I'll leave you to your misery.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 09:37 PM
And with that... I'll leave you to your misery.


You mean, you'll slink away, ass in hand.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 09:41 PM
Freemasonry is not a conspiracy theory. They're a real organization, that everyone knows pulls the levers on the back of the machine. Why are you people carrying water for these asshats? You're rather go back to your bickering about R versus D ? Such a waste.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 09:42 PM
Freemasonry is not a conspiracy theory. They're a real organization, that everyone knows pulls the levers on the back of the machine. Why are you people carrying water for these asshats? You're rather go back to your bickering about R versus D ? Such a waste.
LOL. I never said they don't exist. I have stated clearly that they do not control the world. That belief is, in fact, a Conspiracy Theory.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 09:46 PM
LOL. I never said they don't exist. I have stated clearly that they do not control the world. That belief is, in fact, a Conspiracy Theory.

How many powerful people have to be masons before you realize there's something to it? It is a conspiracy fact.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 09:51 PM
How many powerful people have to be masons before you realize there's something to it? It is a conspiracy fact.
No it isn't. It is a theory. I can create the same kind of theory using Christians... There are so many among the government that it must be a Conspiracy.

Hermes Thoth
02-02-2007, 09:58 PM
No it isn't. It is a theory. I can create the same kind of theory using Christians... There are so many among the government that it must be a Conspiracy.


No, it is a fact. Freemasons run this shit.

What you call christianity has also been corrupted by masons. So when you tried to do the same with christians, it will still point to masons.

Damocles
02-02-2007, 10:02 PM
No, it is a fact. Freemasons run this shit.

What you call christianity has also been corrupted by masons. So when you tried to do the same with christians, it will still point to masons.
LOL. Then I'll use Buddhists, there are enough governments run by them...

Or I'll use Atheists, who most definitively are not freemasons. There are enough of them in government to make anybody pause, if you use your "facts".

Or we can use, redheads. They run the world. There are so many in the government, THEY RUN THE WORLD!!!

Secksi and so powerful!

uscitizen
02-03-2007, 08:12 PM
Naah , the Skull and bones control the US ;)

uscitizen
02-12-2007, 11:20 AM
Umm, just watched another show on freemasons, and found out that Agnostics and Atheists are not allowed in there.

Damocles
02-12-2007, 11:46 AM
Umm, just watched another show on freemasons, and found out that Agnostics and Atheists are not allowed in there.
Atheists are not allowed. Very true.

One must believe that there is a Central God.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 06:58 PM
Atheists are not allowed. Very true.

One must believe that there is a Central God.
Yes. And that "central god" is satan or baphomet.

http://www.churchofsatan.com/Graphics/BaphoGal/LH2lg.jpg

uscitizen
02-14-2007, 07:10 PM
Is that a genuine satanic symbol kind of thing ?

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 07:33 PM
Is that a genuine satanic symbol kind of thing ?

Why yes, mr. haney. I believe it gen u wine.
http://www.tvland.com/shows/greenacres/images/pat_pic.jpg

Damocles
02-14-2007, 08:06 PM
Is that a genuine satanic symbol kind of thing ?
It is a pagan symbol stolen by current Satanists. This guy believes that those who become freemasons suddenly have an epiphany at a "higher degree" than you have, whatever that degree happens to be, and that you will suddenly start worshipping this character rather than continue in the religion you believed right up to that point.

Whomever
02-14-2007, 08:25 PM
You mean like worshipping the my Mother Mary ?

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 08:25 PM
It is a pagan symbol stolen by current Satanists. This guy believes that those who become freemasons suddenly have an epiphany at a "higher degree" than you have, whatever that degree happens to be, and that you will suddenly start worshipping this character rather than continue in the religion you believed right up to that point.

Actually I believe it's a slow moral erosion throughout one's lifetime, that starts with lofty goals, but by degrees leads to complete loyalty to one's superiors regardless the moral content of the actions and lives they force you to lead. Denying the truth is definitely along this path.

Whomever
02-14-2007, 08:32 PM
Just as I have taught my followers.
You are a brilliant man AssHatZombie. Is that a first or last name ?

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 08:34 PM
Just as I have taught my followers.
You are a brilliant man AssHatZombie. Is that a first or last name ?

It is a state of being.

Notice the satanic star above is tilted 33 degrees off the axis of the typical five pointed star that is found all over our various national regalia. The 33 degrees is the path to satanism, literally.

Damocles
02-14-2007, 08:39 PM
Actually I believe it's a slow moral erosion throughout one's lifetime, that starts with lofty goals, but by degrees leads to complete loyalty to one's superiors regardless the moral content of the actions and lives they force you to lead. Denying the truth is definitely along this path.
And I believe that you are a nut, desperate to believe any rumor or innuendo that will make it so you can believe that a group with falling numbers and ever-older membership dying off quickly holds the key to the universe and somehow can control the minds of all people...

I don't know why you are so desperate to believe negatively about people for belonging to a benign fraternity of ever decreasing membership, but clearly you are. You spend an inordinate amount of time desperately pressing the issue in order to get others to "see the light". It is quite an Illuminating experience... Hmm... Illumniating... Illuminati! Now I know why! How come I couldn't see it. You must be Bavarian Illuminati, distracting from the power of your overlords!

Have you yet visited a lodge and met the people? What did you find?

Damocles
02-14-2007, 08:41 PM
BTW, there was a member of the OTO on the other night on Coast to Coast AM, did you listen?

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 08:42 PM
And I believe that you are a nut, desperate to believe any rumor or innuendo that will make it so you can believe that a group with falling numbers and ever-older membership dying off quickly holds the key to the universe and somehow can control the minds of all people...

I don't know why you are so desperate to believe negatively about people for belonging to a benign fraternity of ever decreasing membership, but clearly you are. You spend an inordinate amount of time desperately pressing the issue in order to get others to "see the light". It is quite an Illuminating experience... Hmm... Illumniating... Illuminati! Now I know why! How come I couldn't see it. You must be Bavarian Illuminati, distracting from the power of your overlords!

Have you yet visited a lodge and met the people? What did you find?

Those lodge lizards are mostly not involved. Your hysterical denials only reinforce my beliefs, and the beliefs of those reading your pathetic diatribes against well documented truths. COme on, give me even more sputtering, can you give me a page?

Whomever
02-14-2007, 08:43 PM
It is a state of being.

Notice the satanic star above is tilted 33 degrees off the axis of the typical five pointed star that is found all over our various national regalia. The 33 degrees is the path to satanism, literally.

Sorry AssHatZombie, I have checked and can't find your name in the books up here.
Try a different path. Follow me.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 08:45 PM
BTW, there was a member of the OTO on the other night on Coast to Coast AM, did you listen?

What'd he say? They just play croquet every other wednesday?

Damocles
02-14-2007, 08:45 PM
Those lodge lizards are mostly not involved. Your hysterical denials only reinforce my beliefs, and the beliefs of those reading your pathetic diatribes against well documented truths. COme on, give me even more sputtering, can you give me a page?

Hysterical? Well, only in the fact that I find your insistence hysterically funny...

Honestly, I have yet to meet a freemason who was other than a man, who believed in whatever religion he came with, struggling to be a better man.

Yet you come on here and accuse them of all the worst things you can find on whatever conspiracy site out there, then tell everybody, "It's only the few you don't know! They control the mind of the Universe and dance with Baphomet!"

It is just plain silly. I keep stressing, have you met people who are freemasons and interacted with them other than I? Were they evil people attempting to convince you of Baphomet? Ridiculous. Totally preposterous.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 08:46 PM
Sorry AssHatZombie, I have checked and can't find your name in the books up here.
Try a different path. Follow me.


If you're talking about churchy christianity, no thanks. I do follow jesus. He was a rebel against the corrupt hierarchy of men.

Damocles
02-14-2007, 08:47 PM
What'd he say? They just play croquet every other wednesday?
He clearly stated that the O.T.O. are not Freemasons, but study modern magic. They are definitely separate, even stated so directly by one of their members. It was quite an interesting thing as I had never heard one speak of their odd cult before.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 08:48 PM
Hysterical? Well, only in the fact that I find your insistence hysterically funny...

Honestly, I have yet to meet a freemason who was other than a man, who believed in whatever religion he came with, struggling to be a better man.

Yet you come on here and accuse them of all the worst things you can find on whatever conspiracy site out there, then tell everybody, "It's only the few you don't know! They control the mind of the Universe and dance with Baphomet!"

It is just plain silly. I keep stressing, have you met people who are freemasons and interacted with them other than I? Were they evil people attempting to convince you of Baphomet? Ridiculous. Totally preposterous.


So you keep saying. You sound like one of those people refusing to acknowledge the reality of Islam teachings because of some nice muslim shopkeeper they know. It's called anecdotal evidence, and it sucks ass.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 08:49 PM
He clearly stated that the O.T.O. are not Freemasons, but study modern magic. They are definitely separate, even stated so directly by one of their members. It was quite an interesting thing as I had never heard one speak of their odd cult before.

You're experiencing set, superset, subset confusion. Not all satanists are freemasons, but all freemasons are on the path to satanism, unless they reject the new age crappery.

Damocles
02-14-2007, 08:53 PM
In my case it is far more than anecdotal evidence, it is something that I know well. You however, seem to believe whatever negative thing you can find without searching out the other side of the story. It seems to me that you are afraid of losing your silly game of world-control conspiracy theory to actual knowledge.

Have you met and interacted with any Freemasons other than myself? What was your experience with them? Why are you so wont to believe immediately anything at all, whether it be taken out of context or simply made up, so long as it is negative for Freemasons and other groups you have decided were all in some sort of collusion regardless of how far apart they are in real life?

Every bit of evidence that I have, everything that I know of Freemasonry, solidifies the continued belief that they are men, of strong, often different, religious beliefs, who work to make themselves better. Never once have I seen or had suggested in any format whatsoever that I deny my own beliefs to conform to another... Well never except after the meetings when they attempt to convert me to Christianity just as vehemently as you attempt to get people to believe that Freemasons in conjunction with Catholics are working with Jews to control the entire world. At least I understand their passion, they at least think that if I don't convert I'll lose my soul....

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 08:56 PM
In my case it is far more than anecdotal evidence, it is something that I know well. You however, seem to believe whatever negative thing you can find without searching out the other side of the story. It seems to me that you are afraid of losing your silly game of world-control conspiracy theory to actual knowledge.

Have you met and interacted with any Freemasons other than myself? What was your experience with them? Why are you so wont to believe immediately anything at all, whether it be taken out of context or simply made up, so long as it is negative for Freemasons and other groups you have decided were all in some sort of collusion regardless of how far apart they are in real life?


I prefer to go to sources telling the truth about the subject. Former High ranking members etc.

Again, you're like those saying we should learn about islam by talking to a couple of them instead of reading what the koran actually says.

Damocles
02-14-2007, 09:01 PM
I prefer to go to sources telling the truth about the subject. Former High ranking members etc.

Again, you're like those saying we should learn about islam by talking to a couple of them instead of reading what the koran actually says.
The vast majority of the "former high ranking members" have no evidence whatsoever of ever having membership. Believing them without such evidence is simply a simple position easy to take when the goal is to believe the worst of those you have not met.

Every bit of evidence that I have, everything that I know of Freemasonry, solidifies the continued belief that they are men, of strong, often different, religious beliefs, who work to make themselves better. Never once have I seen or had suggested in any format whatsoever that I deny my own beliefs to conform to another... Well never except after the meetings when they attempt to convert me to Christianity just as vehemently as you attempt to get people to believe that Freemasons in conjunction with Catholics are working with Jews to control the entire world. At least I understand their passion, they at least think that if I don't convert I'll lose my soul.... you, however just seem to want to spread sleaze on people you have never met and refuse to, preferring to believe whomever says that they are former mebers....

Damocles
02-14-2007, 09:03 PM
I have all my dues cards from the beginning, also membership is not a secret. Any of my family members can contact the lodge and give more evidence to you of my membership. Every one of those people that I have ever seen and heard have no evidence and almost always have "facts" that I know to be simply made up...

Shoot, we even keep records of those who Demit, as they can return, and those who we kick out. Especially of those as there is a trial, with records, etc. of that trial.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 09:07 PM
The vast majority of the "former high ranking members" have no evidence whatsoever of ever having membership. Believing them without such evidence is simply a simple position easy to take when the goal is to believe the worst of those you have not met.

Every bit of evidence that I have, everything that I know of Freemasonry, solidifies the continued belief that they are men, of strong, often different, religious beliefs, who work to make themselves better. Never once have I seen or had suggested in any format whatsoever that I deny my own beliefs to conform to another... Well never except after the meetings when they attempt to convert me to Christianity just as vehemently as you attempt to get people to believe that Freemasons in conjunction with Catholics are working with Jews to control the entire world. At least I understand their passion, they at least think that if I don't convert I'll lose my soul.... you, however just seem to want to spread sleaze on people you have never met and refuse to, preferring to believe whomever says that they are former mebers....


Your passion doesn't change the truth.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 09:07 PM
I have all my dues cards from the beginning, also membership is not a secret. Any of my family members can contact the lodge and give more evidence to you of my membership. Every one of those people that I have ever seen and heard have no evidence and almost always have "facts" that I know to be simply made up...

Shoot, we even keep records of those who Demit, as they can return, and those who we kick out. Especially of those as there is a trial, with records, etc. of that trial.


yeah.... and... so....

Damocles
02-14-2007, 09:11 PM
You mistake eloquence for passion. Also the fact that it is my friends that you directly insult fuels the eloquence. I feel if I can get one of you Conspiracy Theorists to at least investigate more thoroughly than "former members" maybe I can make you a "former theorist". Honestly, if somebody was talking about your closest friends, calling them all Satanists, spreading serious negativity about them, might you wax eloquent yourself?

Damocles
02-14-2007, 09:11 PM
yeah.... and... so....
Those who are "former members" speaking to you have none of that. There is no evidence they were ever members, because they never were.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 09:13 PM
You mistake eloquence for passion. Also the fact that it is my friends that you directly insult fuels the eloquence. I feel if I can get one of you Conspiracy Theorists to at least investigate more thoroughly than "former members" maybe I can make you a "former theorist". Honestly, if somebody was talking about your closest friends, calling them all Satanists, spreading serious negativity about them, might you wax eloquent yourself?



No. You mistake verbal diarrhea for persuasive argumentation. Islamists hate it when tapes are played of The mullahs spreading hate too. Don't play this "personal offense" card to scare me off the argument. You're better than that. Get new friends.

Damocles
02-14-2007, 09:15 PM
No. You mistake verbal diarrhea for persuasive argumentation. Islamists hate it when tapes are played of The mullahs spreading hate too. Don't play this "personal offense" card to scare me off the argument. You're better than that. Get new friends.
I don't need them, they are good friends with great intentions.

At least you admit to limiting yourself to one side of the story, to only seeking such evidence as fits your already-decided mind.

Damocles
02-14-2007, 09:16 PM
No. You mistake verbal diarrhea for persuasive argumentation. Islamists hate it when tapes are played of The mullahs spreading hate too. Don't play this "personal offense" card to scare me off the argument. You're better than that. Get new friends.
Plus this is simply inane. There is a reason that Bush spent an hour explaining before they voted to go to war, it is because complicated subjects end up with long explanations.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 09:16 PM
I don't need them, they are good friends with great intentions.

At least you admit to limiting yourself to one side of the story, to only seeking such evidence as fits your already-decided mind.

And you deny that which does not fit with your low level propagandized view of the organization.:clink:

Damocles
02-14-2007, 09:18 PM
And you deny that which does not fit with your low level propagandized view of the organization.:clink:
No, when I entered I sought that out... It isn't there.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 09:18 PM
Plus this is simply inane. There is a reason that Bush spent an hour explaining before they voted to go to war, it is because complicated subjects end up with long explanations.

So explain. Your view seems to be that anyone who says anything bad about masonry is simply a liar. It just doesn't work for me. But keep on trucking, good buddy.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 09:20 PM
No, when I entered I sought that out... It isn't there.

It is there.

Damocles
02-14-2007, 09:21 PM
So explain. Your view seems to be that anyone who says anything bad about masonry is simply a liar. It just doesn't work for me. But keep on trucking, good buddy.
Not true. I have even posted history on the subject on a certain site we both know of. There is an actual history of negative action from Freemasons, the entire Fraternity changed taking action and refocusing on what they were originated to become.

I sought out that "evil" when I got in there, looked for evidence of such. Shoot, I even took "how to spot propaganda" classes when I was in Intelligence in the Navy and I sought out evidence of that too.

I really have found none of it. It isn't there.

Damocles
02-14-2007, 09:23 PM
It's always fun when you come on here. I don't get as much chance to go on the ATS site and read up on conspiracy theories anymore, it is fun to chat it up.

Do you have any other ones? I mean, what about the Freemasons are really Reptilians?

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 09:24 PM
Not true. I have even posted history on the subject on a certain site we both know of. There is an actual history of negative action from Freemasons, the entire Fraternity changed taking action and refocusing on what they were originated to become.

I sought out that "evil" when I got in there, looked for evidence of such. Shoot, I even took "how to spot propaganda" classes when I was in Intelligence in the Navy and I sought out evidence of that too.

I really have found none of it. It isn't there.

Is it possible there are aspects you aren't privy too? You're a propagandist, as you really don't know what goes on. You're a low level spin meister, or, not so low, it's beginning to seem, as the truth bothers you greatly.

uscitizen
02-14-2007, 09:26 PM
Reptiles ? Naw, I had an uncle that was a Mason, well make that 2 uncles. anyway they were warmblooded, whatever their other faults might have been.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 09:27 PM
It's always fun when you come on here. I don't get as much chance to go on the ATS site and read up on conspiracy theories anymore, it is fun to chat it up.

Do you have any other ones? I mean, what about the Freemasons are really Reptilians?



basically what it boils down too is that our society is on a path towards totalitarianism by any of various means, and it's all fueled by elitism, satan's morality. We're taught to believe the different factions of elitists are preaching vastly different messages, but they're really not.

You should go read the jesus was a rebel thread at jimmy's in the religion section. See the neocons freakout.

Damocles
02-14-2007, 09:29 PM
Is it possible there are aspects you aren't privy too? You're a propagandist, as you really don't know what goes on. You're a low level spin meister, or, not so low, it's beginning to seem, as the truth bothers you greatly.
No, not really possible. It is always funny to see that others will believe what they will, and they don't even expect evidence from one side. Yet actual collected evidence and experience seems to befuddle them until they are stuck with personal attacks like this one.

This kind of statement is like the old, "Have you stopped jerking off in the closet yet? Yes or No." joke.

Thankfully we are on a site where people "know" my mind, many very well as we've known each other for years, therefore answering it would just plain be ridiculous. This would work better in a place where people didn't know me quite as well.

uscitizen
02-14-2007, 09:30 PM
Jesus was a rebel against the govt/church, and was crucified for it.
He was no conservative Jew.

Hermes Thoth
02-14-2007, 09:31 PM
No, not really possible. It is always funny to see that others will believe what they will, and they don't even expect evidence from one side. Yet actual collected evidence and experience seems to befuddle them until they are stuck with personal attacks like this one.

This kind of statement is like the old, "Have you stopped jerking off in the closet yet? Yes or No." joke.

Thankfully we are on a site where people "know" my mind, many very well as we've known each other for years, therefore answering it would just plain be ridiculous. This would work better in a place where people didn't know me quite as well.

So it's not possible there are things you don't know about the organization?

Damocles
02-14-2007, 09:31 PM
basically what it boils down too is that our society is on a path towards totalitarianism by any of various means, and it's all fueled by elitism, satan's morality. We're taught to believe the different factions of elitists are preaching vastly different messages, but they're really not.

You should go read the jesus was a rebel thread at jimmy's in the religion section. See the neocons freakout.
What it really boils down to, my fraternity is on the path to only being part of history. People today aren't the joiners they were of the past, and membership goes down every year. Soon there will be no Freemasons, and it will be a loss to the world not a gain when the end of that Fraternity finally comes.

uscitizen
02-14-2007, 09:32 PM
basically what it boils down too is that our society is on a path towards totalitarianism by any of various means, and it's all fueled by elitism, satan's morality. We're taught to believe the different factions of elitists are preaching vastly different messages, but they're really not.
//

Well dropping the satan from that I fully agree, but then we have always been on that course. It is the nature of man.

Damocles
02-14-2007, 09:34 PM
So it's not possible there are things you don't know about the organization?
Nothing nefarious, certainly. There is, of course, some history to study or maybe a speech I have yet to memorize and give. There is no hidden treasure, secreted under DC, there is no great conspiracy to take over the world. All of that is made up mostly by people who wish to feel important with the gullible.

uscitizen
02-14-2007, 09:49 PM
Good enough for me Damo.
;) for what that is worth.

Hermes Thoth
02-15-2007, 05:16 AM
Nothing nefarious, certainly. There is, of course, some history to study or maybe a speech I have yet to memorize and give. There is no hidden treasure, secreted under DC, there is no great conspiracy to take over the world. All of that is made up mostly by people who wish to feel important with the gullible.

So there may be things you don't know, it's just impossibe they're bad? Who's gullible? Simpletons running interference with good deeds and funny motorcycles is a nice ruse.

An unconditional loyalty to a group of power mongers is immoral.

It's not good enough for me damo. When it gets to down to it, your strongest argument is impugning my character.

It's foolish to believe nobody's in control and that things just happen randomly.

AnyOldIron
02-15-2007, 06:58 AM
Hang on a minute.

This chap shouldn't be barred from the POTUS for being a moron.

Are you really claiming that the claims of the morons are any more outlandish than that of other Xtian sects? ha ha ha!

Are Morons any more bizarre than the religious monkey you have in charge now...

AnyOldIron
02-15-2007, 06:59 AM
An unconditional loyalty to a group of power mongers is immoral.

Yes, religion is awful...

uscitizen
02-15-2007, 08:09 AM
An unconditional loyalty to a group of power mongers is immoral.

Yes, religion is awful...
My thoughts exactly :D

Damocles
02-15-2007, 10:38 AM
First you have to prove that they are "power-mongers", the word of "former members" that have no evidence of ever being members is only good enough for the very "simpletons" that you attempt to make me into.

I sought for any evidence of your silly conspiracy theory, it really isn't there.

There is no worldwide conspiracy of Freemasons attempting to take over your mind. Just as there is no real threat in Halloween candy. Also the Chupacabra evidence has about as much merit as the Freemasons are taking over the planet.

So far you have attempted to say I can see nothing in Freemasonry that was ever bad.. You were wrong.

You said I never sought out information from the other side of this debate... You were wrong.

You said you never sought out information from the other side of this debate.. I was right.

You said that somehow some secret extra-special group of hidden "Freemasons" exist with no evidence other than the word of "former members" that have no evidence whatsoever.

You have pretty much nothing to show other than your belief. This is just plain silly.

Succinct enough for ya? You believe a conspiracy exists with the evidence presented to the gullible who never ask for proof of their past experience...

AnyOldIron
02-15-2007, 10:43 AM
Do the freemasons actually do any stone carving?

uscitizen
02-15-2007, 10:49 AM
Do the freemasons actually do any stone carving?

I don't think so. That would involve work. All the Masons I have known seemed to be more managemnt types, than laborers.

Damocles
02-15-2007, 11:00 AM
Do the freemasons actually do any stone carving?
No, freemasons are the leftover group that used to be the Masons. They were losing membership because Universities and other schools began to teach their "secrets". They therefore began to accept those outside that trade, those were called Freemasons rather than Masons. They turned from Union or Guild who gave charity to Masons in need to a Fraternity that worked to give charity to whomever they could.

In the past of the US it was extremely popular to be Freemason and almost a requisite to be in the government as so many men were also Freemasons back then. There was a group of Freemasons who ended up in a conspiracy to get one of their members off of a charge. This gave rise to the Antimasons, and the Antimason party. One President even belonged to that Party.

So the Fraternity was blamed for the actions of a few, membership became unpopular and it became the norm to assume that the entire membership are involved in just such conspiracies all over. :/

Anyway, current Freemasons are the Fraternity left over from that Guild.

Hermes Thoth
02-15-2007, 05:05 PM
No, freemasons are the leftover group that used to be the Masons. They were losing membership because Universities and other schools began to teach their "secrets". They therefore began to accept those outside that trade, those were called Freemasons rather than Masons. They turned from Union or Guild who gave charity to Masons in need to a Fraternity that worked to give charity to whomever they could.

In the past of the US it was extremely popular to be Freemason and almost a requisite to be in the government as so many men were also Freemasons back then. There was a group of Freemasons who ended up in a conspiracy to get one of their members off of a charge. This gave rise to the Antimasons, and the Antimason party. One President even belonged to that Party.

So the Fraternity was blamed for the actions of a few, membership became unpopular and it became the norm to assume that the entire membership are involved in just such conspiracies all over. :/

Anyway, current Freemasons are the Fraternity left over from that Guild.

Yes. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" You're funny!

AnyOldIron
02-16-2007, 02:59 AM
So the freemasons are essentially a frat group for grownups?

Is it like the 'stonecutters' in The Simpsons?

Doesn't sound even as sinister as mainstream religions.... At least they seem to promote enlightenment, even if it involves declaration of belief in 'something'.....

Damocles
02-16-2007, 07:44 AM
Not quite. That one was, of course, a parody of the belief that they "run the world".

There aren't too many Frats in colleges that focus on charity, but yes. It is a fraternity.

AnyOldIron
02-16-2007, 08:25 AM
That one was, of course, a parody of the belief that they "run the world".

I thought that was the lizard people?

Damocles
02-16-2007, 08:52 AM
That one was, of course, a parody of the belief that they "run the world".

I thought that was the lizard people?
Well, it depends on who you are talking to... Some people think the Freemasons run the world. I keep wondering when I get my power...

Others think it is the "Reptilians"..

Me I think it is inept humans that are voted into office.

Hermes Thoth
02-16-2007, 05:04 PM
So the freemasons are essentially a frat group for grownups?

Is it like the 'stonecutters' in The Simpsons?

Doesn't sound even as sinister as mainstream religions.... At least they seem to promote enlightenment, even if it involves declaration of belief in 'something'.....


If by enlightenment you mean a new world order and a new age belief system, then yes, you are correct. THIS is what I'm talking about.

Hermes Thoth
02-16-2007, 10:36 PM
Well, it depends on who you are talking to... Some people think the Freemasons run the world. I keep wondering when I get my power...

Others think it is the "Reptilians"..

Me I think it is inept humans that are voted into office.
Oh poor damo, floundering in ignorance. These are the people who create the policies implemented throughout the world. This information has been available for a while. Why are you so uninformed?

The Trilateral Commision (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=The+trilateral+commission&btnG=Search)
The Bilderbergers (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=the+bilderbergers&btnG=Google+Search)
The Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=The+council+on+foreign+relations&btnG=Search)

None of them are elected.

Damocles
02-16-2007, 11:53 PM
Oh poor damo, floundering in ignorance. These are the people who create the policies implemented throughout the world. This information has been available for a while. Why are you so uninformed?

The Trilateral Commision (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=The+trilateral+commission&btnG=Search)
The Bilderbergers (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=the+bilderbergers&btnG=Google+Search)
The Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=The+council+on+foreign+relations&btnG=Search)

None of them are elected.
Often they are. There is a list of trilateral commission members who are elected and appointed to office. I believe you can find Cheney's name on some of those lists. So... You'd be both right, and wrong. This is a major aspect of the neo-con movement, a portion of which expects US style democracy to be forcefully spread. Shoot they even have it on their official website.

Most of them honestly think they'd be doing the world a service by uniting humanity. I just think that the more they do, the more freedom they take.

Damocles
02-16-2007, 11:54 PM
Also there is a list of CFR currently in elected office.

Hermes Thoth
02-17-2007, 08:16 AM
Also there is a list of CFR currently in elected office.

Ok. SOme of them are in elected office, but for the most part they are self selecting.

And actually the massive amounts of money required to run a campaign make the ultra rich the true "deciders" of most things.

Damocles
02-17-2007, 10:41 AM
Ok. SOme of them are in elected office, but for the most part they are self selecting.

And actually the massive amounts of money required to run a campaign make the ultra rich the true "deciders" of most things.
Long ago and far away, I am positive that you have read my threads stressing the facts of coin-operated government.

Hermes Thoth
02-18-2007, 04:37 PM
Long ago and far away, I am positive that you have read my threads stressing the facts of coin-operated government.

Not really. Want to refresh my memory? Is it something relevant or more fluff and bluster?

Damocles
02-18-2007, 05:18 PM
Not really. Want to refresh my memory? Is it something relevant or more fluff and bluster?
If this thread is "something of substance" then I guess it was substantive....

And no, it is not the time. People are still stuck in the circus and think their only choices are between one group that has such membership, or another that has the same. So, we keep on going in rings, round and round we go...

TRGLDTE
02-19-2007, 11:31 AM
It is a state of being.

Notice the satanic star above is tilted 33 degrees off the axis of the typical five pointed star that is found all over our various national regalia. The 33 degrees is the path to satanism, literally. The star appears to be 36 degrees off the normal presentation to me.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 12:28 PM
The star appears to be 36 degrees off the normal presentation to me.


Well it's 33. So get over it.:p

Damocles
02-19-2007, 12:31 PM
Well it's 33. So get over it.:p
It couldn't be. There are 5 stars, a peak and valley. Each valley and each peak would make a point of 10. 10 divided by 360 is 36, each valley and each peak would be a value of 13, therefore, since the star "usually" has a valley at the bottom and there is now a peak at the bottom it is exactly 13 degrees from the "usual" position. At 33 degrees it would have had neither a peak, nor a valley at the bottom of the star.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 12:33 PM
Is this some more of that 1/3 stuff ?

TRGLDTE
02-19-2007, 12:37 PM
It couldn't be. There are 5 stars, a peak and valley. Each valley and each peak would make a point of 10. 10 divided by 360 is 36, each valley and each peak would be a value of 13, therefore, since the star "usually" has a valley at the bottom and there is now a peak at the bottom it is exactly 13 degrees from the "usual" position. At 33 degrees it would have had neither a peak, nor a valley at the bottom of the star. 360 degrees / 5 points = 72 degrees apart. Offset is a "half point" or 36 degrees. Trust me on the geometry.

Now Ass may contend that the star is not truly aligned with the bottom point directly downward, and that there is a three degree offset from 'vertical" that we can't see with the naked eye.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 12:38 PM
360 degrees / 5 points = 72 degrees apart. Offset is a "half point" or 36 degrees. Trust me on the geometry.

Now Ass may contend that the star is not truly aligned with the bottom point directly downward, and that there is a three degree offset from 'vertical" that we can't see with the naked eye.

Yes. I'm suggesting it's not rotated exactly one fifth. Is that too impossible to be true?

TRGLDTE
02-19-2007, 12:38 PM
Is this some more of that 1/3 stuff ? No this is related to Pi because it's a star inscribed in a circle.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 12:41 PM
It couldn't be. There are 5 stars, a peak and valley. Each valley and each peak would make a point of 10. 10 divided by 360 is 36, each valley and each peak would be a value of 13, therefore, since the star "usually" has a valley at the bottom and there is now a peak at the bottom it is exactly 13 degrees from the "usual" position. At 33 degrees it would have had neither a peak, nor a valley at the bottom of the star.



Im sorry, it is possible to rotate any given shape a mere 33 degrees. Just consider it another one of those "pesky" facts you love to hate.

TRGLDTE
02-19-2007, 12:54 PM
Yes. I'm suggesting it's not rotated exactly one fifth. Is that too impossible to be true? yeah, yeah, I showed you the out and you took it. Good for you.

P.S. you meant not exactly one tenth.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 12:57 PM
yeah, yeah, I showed you the out and you took it. Good for you.

P.S. you meant not exactly one tenth.


Im sorry your math based rebuttal didn't zing as much as you'd hoped.
:sexy:

TRGLDTE
02-19-2007, 01:01 PM
Im sorry your math based rebuttal didn't zing as much you'd hoped.
:sexy: Soory you got it wrong in the first place and had to fall back onto the escape position I conveniently gave you so this asinine argument can end.

Three degrees off to the left because, as we know, evil is always toward the left of center.

uscitizen
02-19-2007, 01:06 PM
Evil is all around the compass.

Damocles
02-19-2007, 01:11 PM
Yes. I'm suggesting it's not rotated exactly one fifth. Is that too impossible to be true?
1/5 of a 360 degree circle would be 72 degrees not 33. 5 times 33 is 165.

Anyway, with 5 peaks and 5 valleys each angle would be 1/10th of a circle, to move the star from a valley to a peak you would need to divide the circle by 10, 36 degrees, so Trog is right. It is exactly 36 degrees from where it began, if it was 1/5th it would be exactly the same position with a different valley of the star at the bottom.

Damocles
02-19-2007, 01:14 PM
Im sorry, it is possible to rotate any given shape a mere 33 degrees. Just consider it another one of those "pesky" facts you love to hate.
It is possible, but not with a star with equal peaks and have the point be exactly at bottom center if it started with the valley at exactly bottom center. 3 degrees would be noticable to the eye, it would seem off-kilter, and would be. A star rotated exactly 1/10th of its position would wind up with the point at the bottom if it started with a valley at the bottom. You simply do not have the "degrees" correct.

Hermes Thoth
02-19-2007, 01:23 PM
It is possible, but not with a star with equal peaks and have the point be exactly at bottom center if it started with the valley at exactly bottom center. 3 degrees would be noticable to the eye, it would seem off-kilter, and would be. A star rotated exactly 1/10th of its position would wind up with the point at the bottom if it started with a valley at the bottom. You simply do not have the "degrees" correct.

I understand what you're saying. You're right on the degrees, Im saying it can be three degrees off and still look basically right. I guess you could say we disagree about the perceptive abilities of the eye, but I think it's MORE correct to say that once again, we are at odds because because my model of reality is superset of yours. It's not that your views are "wrong", as they relate to YOUR understanding of things, it 's that you can't see the bigger picture. :cool: