The American Dollar

[Brent]

Our currency is not an honest form of money, because there is nothing of true value to back it. What we need is a return to the silver standard, or some form of precious alloy, for the sake of restoring stability to and confidence in our money system.

[BRUTALITOPS]

i'll take yours off your hands :)

[Brent]

i'll take yours off your hands :)

No thanks. My point here wasn't to suggest that the dollar is useless. Rather, I am suggesting it is dishonest, and prone to instability. It only has value because we agree it does, not because it is actually valuable. It is just paper.

[dlescook]

Brent; you are a moron. There is no reason to return to a "gold standard" or a "silver standard" or a "precious alloy". Gold and silver are not intrinsically valuable per se......they are worthless in and of themselves just like paper dollars. The *only* reason gold and silver have value (same as the dollar) is because *other* people think it is valuable. You said this yourself about dollars, but the same is true for metals.

Any exhange system ultimately cares about the goods and services a money form can buy them, not the money itself. And this is just as true for gold or dollars.

The gold standard is ridiculous and there is no way in hell America would go back to such medieval times. Who lacks confidence in our monetary system?

[Brent]

Cook,

Is paper a limited commodity? No. Gold and silver, however, ARE limited commodities. There is a limited supply of gold and silver, and there is a demand for them. Therefore, these commodities have a real value.

Paper is in demand, but the supply is hardly limited. We have billions of trees and other plants we can use to make paper. By contrast there is no way we can "make" gold and silver.

[dlescook]

LOL dickweed. Most money in our economic system isn't "paper", it's digital. I get paid via direct deposit, and use online bill pay, use my credit card for purchases, checks for rent, etc.....I use less than $60 cash per month. The only reason I need cash is for black market transactions (i.e. drugs).

So no, the fact that a "dollar" is paper money is largely irrelevant as the paper is hardly the largest part of money in circulation......it is part of the M1 category but hardly not the largest.

....you have a complete lack of understanding of monetary economics.

[Brent]

LOL dickweed. Most money in our economic system isn't "paper", it's digital. I get paid via direct deposit, and use online bill pay, use my credit card for purchases, checks for rent, etc.....I use less than $60 cash per month. The only reason I need cash is for black market transactions (i.e. drugs).

So no, the fact that a "dollar" is paper money is largely irrelevant as the paper is hardly the largest part of money in circulation......it is part of the M1 category but hardly not the largest.

....you have a complete lack of understanding of monetary economics.

My reference to paper is a figure of speech, Cook. Electronic money is the same thing. It says it has value, but it really doesn't.

[dlescook]

LOL,

Moron you can artificially expand the supply of gold just like money.

No one is going to keep gold with them at all the time. What do they do? They deposit it in a bank, and they think they still "have" the gold. The bank turns around and lends out that gold to other people. Now two sets of people "have" the gold. Funny, how it doesn't matter whether it's gold or dollars.

It's just like shorting a stock brent. It artificially increases the supply of that stock. Through my broker I own shares of lots of stocks lets say. Someone wants to sell a stock they don't own, the broker allows this and its called "shorting". Just like a bank, the broker takes my shares (w/ out my knowledge) and lends them to another investor that sells the shares immediately on the market. The supply of that stock has just now increased, as I still think I own the stock and so does the guy that just bought the shares that were shorted out of my account.

Economics isn't about a particular underlying or unique commodity. There is nothing that makes gold or silver special.

[Brent]

Cook,

The solution is to ban fractional reserve banking.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Our currency is not an honest form of money, because there is nothing of true value to back it. What we need is a return to the silver standard, or some form of precious alloy, for the sake of restoring stability to and confidence in our money system.

The only thing that makes something worth something is the fact that you think it is. It's pointless to "back up" a monetary system, since the only thing that makes gold and silver "worth" anything anyway is the same thing that makes moeny worth something. It has no real utility, but is valued only for it's ability to be traded.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

You're an idiot, Brent. I barely could read through your posts without laughing. You know nothing about economics.

[dlescook]

Cook,

The solution is to ban fractional reserve banking.

The solution to what dickhead? You haven't even described a problem.

You want to limit/expand the money supply? That is what the FOMC does, through reserve requirements, funds rate, and buying/selling bonds on the open market.

I highly doubt that you of all people would understand how the money supply should be targeted.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

No thanks. My point here wasn't to suggest that the dollar is useless. Rather, I am suggesting it is dishonest, and prone to instability. It only has value because we agree it does, not because it is actually valuable. It is just paper.

That's a misconception.

EVERYTHING has value only because we think it does! What other reason would something have value? God you're an idiot. What's so much more valuable about gold than a controlled fiat money supply? You can hang it around your neck?

[Brent]

The solution to what dickhead? You haven't even described a problem.

You want to limit/expand the money supply? That is what the FOMC does, through reserve requirements, funds rate, and buying/selling bonds on the open market.

I highly doubt that you of all people would understand how the money supply should be targeted.

Banks giving out money they don't have is a problem.

[Brent]

That's a misconception.

EVERYTHING has value only because we think it does! What other reason would something have value? God you're an idiot. What's so much more valuable about gold than a controlled fiat money supply? You can hang it around your neck?

So much for Milton Friedman, eh?

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Do you have any idea how much it would hurt the economy to have an inflexible money system and no banks?

This reminds me of the guy in Iran who has basically nuked the nations economy because he's about to ban taking in interest because it's against muslim doctirine. The stock market of Iran has fallen by almost half since he's taken power.

[Beefy]

Brent, who's telling you all this stuff? Really? Like dles said, nothing is inherently valuable. Basing currency on the scarcity of any particular commodity would inherently lead to a celing on wealth. What are you smokin?

[Brent]

Do you have any idea how much it would hurt the economy to have an inflexible money system and no banks?

Silver is inflexible?

Where did I say no to banks? I said no fractional reserving.

The founders would support what I've said.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Silver is inflexible?

Where did I say no to banks? I said no fractional reserving.

The founders would support what I've said.

The founders would probably shoot you.

[Brent]

The founders would probably shoot you.

Not Alexander Hamilton, Patrick Henry, and many others with whom I see eye-to-eye. Not all founders were "libertarians." In fact, I would say less than a third of them could be described as libertarian. Many were Monarchists -- to them, liberty meant independence, not the "freedom" to do whatever we want to do.

What would you rather have, Watermark? A dollar you can trade for silver at the US Treasury, or a dollar which is backed by nothing and can be easily manipulated? Sure, you can trade dollars for silver by purchasing silver, but the value of the dollar is not directly connected to the value of silver as it should be.

[Brent]

Brent, who's telling you all this stuff? Really? Like dles said, nothing is inherently valuable. Basing currency on the scarcity of any particular commodity would inherently lead to a celing on wealth. What are you smokin?

So much for Harry Browne and the thousands of other libertarians who recognize the benefit of returning to a hard money system.

[Beefy]

So much for Harry Browne and the thousands of other libertarians who recognize the benefit of returning to a hard money system.


I don't agree with the Libertarians on everything, and if they all believe that we should return to a gold or silver standard, then I surely disagree with them on that issue. I think its a natural observation to see that wealth is subjective, as is the value of any scarce commodity. Its perception.

[Damocles]

I don't agree with the Libertarians on everything, and if they all believe that we should return to a gold or silver standard, then I surely disagree with them on that issue. I think its a natural observation to see that wealth is subjective, as is the value of any scarce commodity. Its perception.
Plus there is nothing like a discovery of a huge amount of a "rare" commodity that you happen to base your money on to devalue that currency...

:rolleyes:

[Beefy]

Plus there is nothing like a discovery of a huge amount of a "rare" commodity that you happen to base your money on to devalue that currency...

:rolleyes:

Herein lies the point. Perception is everyhting, and there is a clear example to be understood in 1920's Germany. (I salivate at the concept of erroneous responses)

[Care4all]

Plus there is nothing like a discovery of a huge amount of a "rare" commodity that you happen to base your money on to devalue that currency...

:rolleyes:

but could ''a huge find of a precious metal'' really devalue our dollar as much as it has been devalued over the years on the ''system'' that we are on....?

[Damocles]

but could ''a huge find of a precious metal'' really devalue our dollar as much as it has been devalued over the years on the ''system'' that we are on....?
Yes.

[Care4all]

but could ''a huge find of a precious metal'' really devalue our dollar as much as it has been devalued over the years on the ''system'' that we are on....?
damo....what i mean is, every time we ''print'' more money with the system we are using....it devalues the dollar, doesn't it?

[Damocles]

but could ''a huge find of a precious metal'' really devalue our dollar as much as it has been devalued over the years on the ''system'' that we are on....?
It could even be worse than it is now... If you suddenly found out that the money you currently hold in your bank, in the stock market, in your wallet became less than 1/20th the current value because of one simple "find" you would know what I am talking of. Imagine somebody stealing 80% of your money and that still wouldn't be as bad as it devaluing so quickly. If you base money on the rarity of a substance it depends entirely on that rarity continuing. If money were based on dirt it would be worthless entirely.

[Damocles]

damo....what i mean is, every time we ''print'' more money with the system we are using....it devalues the dollar, doesn't it?
Yes, that's called inflation. It can have the same effect if it is done too quickly. Ask Mexico what 100% inflation rates feel like...

[Beefy]

Yes, that's called inflation. It can have the same effect if it is done too quickly. Ask Mexico what 100% inflation rates feel like...
Better yet, ask argentina in the mid 80's.

[harolds]

LOL,

This is silly. There is no reason to revert to a gold standard. Who cares if a dollar is backed by silver? Can I eat silver? Use it? Build shit with it?

No of course not. There is no reason to have more faith in silver than the dollar.

[Beefy]

LOL,

This is silly. There is no reason to revert to a gold standard. Who cares if a dollar is backed by silver? Can I eat silver? Use it? Build shit with it?

No of course not. There is no reason to have more faith in silver than the dollar.


Thus the value of perception. Good post.

[Brent]

Damo and Beefy want the government to decide what our money is worth. That is in complete contradiction with what our Founders believed; they believed in a money system controlled by the People.

[Damocles]

Rubbish, the founders coined the first American coins and created a value system for the money.

[Brent]

Rubbish, the founders coined the first American coins and created a value system for the money.

But the People decided what the gold and silver was worth based on the supply and demand for those commodities. Back then the People didn't have to worry about politicians setting interest rates and so forth, all of which impact the "value" of our fiat money supply today.

We need to return to the Mint Act of 1792.

[mookie]

Brent, can you name one country that still uses the gold standard, or a silver standard versus fiat money?

Honestly, if it's such a great idea, you should be able to come up with an example.

[gonzojournals]

The Gold standard is a stupid concept to begin with--- the logic is that money is only worth what it represents....the fallacy is that Gold is only worth what we say it is to begin with....so why not cut out the middle man and just use fiat?

Exactly. See, if you put down Mein Kampf long enough to understand, it really makes sense.

[Brent]

Brent, can you name one country that still uses the gold standard, or a silver standard versus fiat money?

Honestly, if it's such a great idea, you should be able to come up with an example.

Switzerland was on the Gold Standard until 1999. Just because no countries are using it does not mean it is wrong. In fact, if anything that means it is right! Our world is run by interests other than the People.

[gonzojournals]

Switzerland was on the Gold Standard until 1999. Just because no countries are using it does not mean it is wrong. In fact, if anything that means it is right! Our world is run by interests other than the People.

Are you saying that the world is better off being run by rocks with fake value than paper with fake value?

[OrnotBitwise]

Are you saying that the world is better off being run by rocks with fake value than paper with fake value?
Logically, you're right. The one and only advantage of the gold standard is that it limits the supply of money.

[gonzojournals]

Logically I'm right, therefore I'm right. I thought you said you weren't going to change your signature?

You went from vaguely National Socialist to full-blown Nazi.

[gonzojournals]

Oops, I thought you were Brent. I'm still right, however.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Not Alexander Hamilton, Patrick Henry, and many others with whom I see eye-to-eye. Not all founders were "libertarians." In fact, I would say less than a third of them could be described as libertarian. Many were Monarchists -- to them, liberty meant independence, not the "freedom" to do whatever we want to do.

What would you rather have, Watermark? A dollar you can trade for silver at the US Treasury, or a dollar which is backed by nothing and can be easily manipulated? Sure, you can trade dollars for silver by purchasing silver, but the value of the dollar is not directly connected to the value of silver as it should be.


Thankyou for picking two of the least respected founding fathers, responsible for much of the legislation and thought they caused us to be able to completely disregard the constitution. I bet you'd like to get rid of the bill of rights. Well, maybe not, but you'd like to replace it with "rights" like these:

You have the right to not be anything but white
You have the right to not be anything but Christian
You have the right to not do anything I, Brent, don't want you to

You're an idiot.

[Beefy]

Thankyou for picking two of the least respected founding fathers, responsible for much of the legislation and thought they caused us to be able to completely disregard the constitution. I bet you'd like to get rid of the bill of rights. Well, maybe not, but you'd like to replace it with "rights" like these:

You have the right to not be anything but white
You have the right to not be anything but Christian
You have the right to not do anything I, Brent, don't want you to

You're an idiot.
Hamilton, for all his faults, understood that a fledgling economy had to pay its bills, and currency, monetary policy and faith in the dollar were paramount. Hamilton was a genius in terms of economics. I'll give him props for that. He made something out of nothing, and did it magnificently.

[uscitizen]

I don't know the figures, but expect that we don't have nnearly enough gold to back our dollars in circulation, let alone our debt, so this is a moot point.

[evince]

US glad to see you dude .

I really missed you!

[uscitizen]

US glad to see you dude .

I really missed you!


Thanks Desh. I missed some of ya on here too. But then some I missed about like a jab in my eye with a sharp stick. I will be around some, but not too much. Very busy here lately. Neighbor gave me a several thousand board feet worth of nice oak / cherry / beech trees if I will just clear them off his property.
Got a deal worked out with the sawmill to saw them on shares for me.

[klaatu]

nice to c' ya USC .. how ya been?

[uscitizen]

Pretty good, considering life sucks :)
Was forced into a promotion in my job, I have mixed feelings on that.
I have been very busy this summer. Starting my paying job a 6-7 AM and then working on other stuff afterwards till 11 or so at night. And I seem to be losing ground :(
Scanned the old board and it appeared a bit slow and said something about having a dup ID AKA troll ID, so I came over here. I guess I got bit by the toebee and Dicksie aliases :) Oh well they were worth it.

[gonzojournals]

I don't know the figures, but expect that we don't have nnearly enough gold to back our dollars in circulation, let alone our debt, so this is a moot point.

No shit. That's why they stopped it in the first place.

[uscitizen]

I recall reading that we do not even have enough gold to pay off the US govt debt bonds.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

You're an idiot, Brent. I barely could read through your posts without laughing. You know nothing about economics.

No. You're an idiot, watermark. Fiat currency is the bane of the modern world, A statist totalitarian's wet dream. Gold and silver are actually scarce. Fiat currency can be created from thin air by the FED (a private corporation), and the people are on the hook to pay it back, but they CAN'T make it out of thin air. The value of fiat currency is the strength of the state apparatus which proclaims it's value. Hence, the value of the dollar is reinforced by the american government's willingness to use force to defend it's value.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

So why is china working so hard for US dollars? The dollars themselves are worthless, as pointed out. The value of the money is America's pledge to enslave american people to pay off the trade debt, if necessary. Money is control. And if money isn't control, then it's not even money, according to NWO thinkng. Fiat currency is worthless, the slaves created from it's abuse are valuable.

[Damocles]

So why is china working so hard for US dollars? The dollars themselves are worthless, as pointed out. The value of the money is America's pledge to enslave american people to pay off the trade debt, if necessary. Money is control. And if money isn't control, then it's not even money, according to NWO thinkng. Fiat currency is worthless, the slaves created from it's abuse are valuable.
So use your "fiat currency" to buy gold as an investment. Buy many American Eagles. You'll need it.

[uscitizen]

Buy thinkg that cannot be replicated. Like gold, Land, silver, platnium, etc. We are not making any more of those things.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

So use your "fiat currency" to buy gold as an investment. Buy many American Eagles. You'll need it.

That may be a personal escape plan, on an individual level; I'm suggesting freeing society in general from the constant inflationary effect of fiat currency.

[Damocles]

That may be a personal escape plan, on an individual level; I'm suggesting freeing society in general from the constant inflationary effect of fiat currency.
You will find that you cannot force people to save themselves. Work on yourself.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

You will find that you cannot force people to save themselves. Work on yourself.



Who's forcing? Im merely providing an accurate account of our situation. You work on yourself. I'm going go to try to get these fucks who control this shit to stop their carnage.


All this new age crap really IS ultimately about selfishness, isn't it?

[uscitizen]

It is all about getting mine and perception now-a-days.
Greed is good and next to godliness.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

It is all about getting mine and perception now-a-days.
Greed is good and next to godliness.

http://x.gadgetmaniac.com/wordpress/upimages/motoroladynatacwallstreet2.jpg

Nice phone, douchebag.

[uscitizen]

that post makes no sense whatsoever. Did one have to see a particular movie or something ?

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

that post makes no sense whatsoever. Did one have to see a particular movie or something ?

It was hilarious. And yes, one had to see a particular movie or something.

[uscitizen]

Ok, things that make no sense are often hillarious.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Ok, things that make no sense are often hillarious.


It does make sense, you case study in senility. Like I said, it's a movie you had to see or something.

[uscitizen]

Senility is grand! The more senile you get the less our suckass government bothers you.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

It totally does matter if currency is real or not. Just because we're used to a public agreement about what token shall be used for legal tender doesn't mean fiat money is somehow justified. We agreed to trust money initially because it was backed by SOMETHING OF ACTUAL VALUE, we're just in that habit, but that doesn't justify the absurdity, totalitarianism, and slow theft through inflation which are the inevitable results of a fiat currency system.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

My reference to paper is a figure of speech, Cook. Electronic money is the same thing. It says it has value, but it really doesn't.

Then why do people use it? Who decides what is valuable? The market, or Brent?

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Then why do people use it? Who decides what is valuable? The market, or Brent?

In a fiat system it's value is enforced by state decree. It's an awesome power which corrupts our entire world.

[uscitizen]

Ohh well after all this US triggered investment debacle dies down some, the world will not be using the dollar nearly as much.

[Obfuscate]

So much for Milton Friedman, eh?


Friedman didn't support the gold standard and thought it as inpracticale. He supported a fixed monetary growth of about 4% a year.

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

Friedman didn't support the gold standard and thought it as inpracticale. He supported a fixed monetary growth of about 4% a year.

Nobody supports the gold standard on the record. Their careers are funded by the university system of the military industrial complex. On the record they advocate the massive statist power of being able to create wealth.

[Good Luck]

People have seemed to long forgotten that money - even if backed by precious metals - is still nothing more than an invented symbol to ease trade. The factor that allows fiat money the corrupting influence it has is we treat money itself as having real value. Money does not have real value. Gold, silver, platinum, diamonds, etc. are pretty to look at, but their value is also artificially induced as traditional means of backing currency.

When a society gets back to the real meaning of money instead of treating money as real value, then they will achieve a long standing and stable economy. That society will also then be able to achieve much more in the way of advancements because the measure of worth will be based on real resources and not an arbitrary number of monetary units (or ounces of semi-rare metals.).