Cuba

[Beefy]

For the better part of the last 5 decades, Cuba has been under the rule of Fidel Castro. It was a very different political climate when Batista was overthrown, specifically with regard to the cold war. Batista was a bastard, but he was OUR bastard. Castro threw him out, assumed power and then was shortly thereafter faces with the dilemma of standing on his own or allying himself with the USSR, which meant going Communist. (This thread is a gross oversimplification, so spare me the details)

Next thing we knew, Castro was a Communist, the Cold War was raging, polarity was as high as its ever been between World Powers, and Washington knew it had to do something, thus the Bay of Pigs.

A huge embarrassment, a miserable failure and a predictable result for underestimating the power demand in order to overthrow something we did not have enough intelligence on nor understand. The Bay of Pigs leads to the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy comes out smelling like a rose, and the embargo is given momentum.

43 years later, 5 or 6 assasination attempts later, Castro is dying. The people of Cuba are bearing the consequence of a decades old embargo, Americans are being deprived of good cigars (not joking), fine sugar, a grand culture, and all else that Cuba can offer.

Bush recently has changed the rules as well making it more difficult for families that live in Cuba to see their loved ones. He has made it more difficult on account of a 40+ year old failed policy that has not harmed the Cuban Government, but surely harmed the Cuban people.

Isn't it time we addressed the issue without a jaundiced eye?

[OrnotBitwise]

Not going to happen, sadly. I call it the "unindicted criminal vote" in Florida. That's unfairly harsh on my part but it's honest. ;)

[Beefy]

Not going to happen, sadly. I call it the "unindicted criminal vote" in Florida. That's unfairly harsh on my part but it's honest. ;)


Expand.

[OrnotBitwise]

Expand.

Can't. Not much anyway. We already did this earlier today and I'm a bit too well lubricated at the moment.

FWIW, what keeps the embargo in place and the anti-Castro rhetoric flowing now is, more than anything else, pandering to the quote exile unquote vote in Florida and the Gulf Coast. And that crowd is never going to let go. Not ever. It's become their whole reason for existence, in my experience. They will hold onto their hate until the sun burns out and the last Squalnathrint -- a distant descendent of the common whelk that will emerge to dominate the planet in about 4 billion years -- has perished.

[Beefy]

Well, it seems to me that most people here seem to have the old black and white look at things. While guys like Hannity and Limbaugh want to talk about "liberating 50 million people", they at the same time want to keep the populations of a country like Cuba in desperation to achieve a political goal. It seems as though we need to re-evaluate out policy towads Cuba as a step in the right direction.

[OrnotBitwise]

Well, it seems to me that most people here seem to have the old black and white look at things. While guys like Hannity and Limbaugh want to talk about "liberating 50 million people", they at the same time want to keep the populations of a country like Cuba in desperation to achieve a political goal. It seems as though we need to re-evaluate out policy towads Cuba as a step in the right direction.I agree. A bit of cost/benefit analysis is in order, even if not some soul searching.

The weird thing about our system -- one of 'em, anyway -- is that a comparatively small block of votes can, if they really stick together, wield power far out of proportion to their numbers. In some instances. Sadly, this is one of them.

[Beefy]

I agree. A bit of cost/benefit analysis is in order, even if not some soul searching.

The weird thing about our system -- one of 'em, anyway -- is that a comparatively small block of votes can, if they really stick together, wield power far out of proportion to their numbers. In some instances. Sadly, this is one of them.

I'm still query as to who. Are you speaking of the cubans who got here, and their generations?

[OrnotBitwise]

:chesh:
I'm still query as to who. Are you speaking of the cubans who got here, and their generations?

Da, tovarishch. Dem. Dose? Whadevah.

The Cuban "exile" community. That lot. I don't care for 'em much, though that's not really fair. Klaatu likes 'em bunches and that's equally silly.

G'Night, Beefy. Ze bed, her siren song has become irrezistable.

:chesh:

[Beefy]

:chesh:

Da, tovarishch. Dem. Dose? Whadevah.

The Cuban "exile" community. That lot. I don't care for 'em much, though that's not really fair. Klaatu likes 'em bunches and that's equally silly.

G'Night, Beefy. Ze bed, her siren song has become irrezistable.

:chesh:

Later. But tomorrow, I will bombard you once again with my experiences in Havana in '03 :)

[maineman]

Well, it seems to me that most people here seem to have the old black and white look at things. While guys like Hannity and Limbaugh want to talk about "liberating 50 million people", they at the same time want to keep the populations of a country like Cuba in desperation to achieve a political goal. It seems as though we need to re-evaluate out policy towads Cuba as a step in the right direction.

black and white are the only colors that the neoconservatives can see....

[toby]

Castro started off well enought he just took a wrong turn. And why are you blaming American policy? Castro has some imput into what he did, didn't he? He could have reached out to the US, but he chose differently.

[OrnotBitwise]

Castro started off well enought he just took a wrong turn. And why are you blaming American policy? Castro has some imput into what he did, didn't he? He could have reached out to the US, but he chose differently.
Sure, and Israel could have reached out to Hezbollah. It's tough to "reach out" to someone who hates your guts and is actively working to kill you.

Castro is Castro. He is ultimately responsible for the shape of the Cuban government today. And that's not a pretty shape, for the most part. On the other hand, he's also responsible for a lot of the good things that the Cuban people enjoy. And there are some very good ones. The United States can claim no share at all in either the prosperity or the hardships of the Cuban people, because our government is so damned stupid.

[Damocles]

Sure, and Israel could have reached out to Hezbollah. It's tough to "reach out" to someone who hates your guts and is actively working to kill you.

Castro is Castro. He is ultimately responsible for the shape of the Cuban government today. And that's not a pretty shape, for the most part. On the other hand, he's also responsible for a lot of the good things that the Cuban people enjoy. And there are some very good ones. The United States can claim no share at all in either the prosperity or the hardships of the Cuban people, because our government is so damned stupid.
We were not actively against Castro at the beginning, he could have reached out then. This Hezbollah/Castro comparison is totally fallacious.

[Brent]

The Monroe Doctrine would justify taking out the marxist government and replacing it with one favorable to the United States.

[Damocles]

Which is what they attempted with Castro... Foolislh people took out a pro-American bad guy to put in a Marxist Dictator.

[Brent]

Batista was a marxist swine. But, he was still a lot better than Castro.

[Beefy]

Batista was our bitch. He was out guy and when he was thrown out, we didn't like the revolutionaries so much, Castro was weak and needed to ally with someone strong, his natural tendencies allied him with the USSR and the rest is history. The embargo is outdated and should be lifted. Nobody benefits from it save for Castro himself.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Can't. Not much anyway. We already did this earlier today and I'm a bit too well lubricated at the moment.

FWIW, what keeps the embargo in place and the anti-Castro rhetoric flowing now is, more than anything else, pandering to the quote exile unquote vote in Florida and the Gulf Coast. And that crowd is never going to let go. Not ever. It's become their whole reason for existence, in my experience. They will hold onto their hate until the sun burns out and the last Squalnathrint -- a distant descendent of the common whelk that will emerge to dominate the planet in about 4 billion years -- has perished.

And of course, the electoral college system makes Florida the only state in the US that really votes. All the rest of us are throwing our ballots into a fire. So losing those votes would mean you'd never win the presidency.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

The Monroe Doctrine would justify taking out the marxist government and replacing it with one favorable to the United States.

The monroe doctirine?

Are you joking?

[FUCK THE POLICE]

And I believe you're talking about the Roosevelte Corallory.