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davidmabus
03-14-2010, 03:40 AM
nostrausa.awardspace.us



PULLING THE PLUG on atheism
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3332/3228845133_3599f8108f.jpg

______________


firstscience.com/site/articles/coles.asp

davidmabus
03-21-2010, 07:22 PM
Crystal Night, Atheists!


FINALE:



Have I said this before?


http://nostraamerica.atspace.com/


PULLING THE PLUG on atheism


http://www.firstscience.com/site/articles/coles.asp




http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3332/3228845133_3599f8108f.jpg



bye


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20090126/as-indonesia-solar-eclipse/images/c52d9d50-7ca2-4c3a-b13c-c866836298c8.jpg





Einstein puts the final nail in the coffin of atheism...


*************************************


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7vpw4AH8QQ"

*************************************



atheists deny their own life element...

Damocles
03-21-2010, 07:37 PM
How would this possibly derail a faith like atheism?

Socrtease
03-22-2010, 12:05 AM
Did your parents tell you there was a toothfairy? They lied.
Did your parents tell you there was a Santa Claus? They lied again.
Did your parents tell you there was an Easter Bunny? Lies.
But the one invisible being they told you about, god? Well that must be all true. Right?

FUCK THE POLICE
03-23-2010, 12:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P47OC439x88"

Minister of Truth
03-23-2010, 01:28 PM
Did your parents tell you there was a toothfairy? They lied.
Did your parents tell you there was a Santa Claus? They lied again.
Did your parents tell you there was an Easter Bunny? Lies.
But the one invisible being they told you about, god? Well that must be all true. Right?

My parents never taught me to believe in the Toothfairy, Mr. Claus, or Da Wabbit...

AnyOldIron
03-25-2010, 03:17 AM
How would this possibly derail a faith like atheism?

Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

Don Hirschberg

AnyOldIron
03-25-2010, 03:19 AM
The God / No god argument was won a long time ago.

Its strange how such primitive superstitions remain in such a nation as the USA. Religious belief is usually predominant in third world nations where life is desperate and difficult.

PostmodernProphet
03-25-2010, 06:54 AM
The God / No god argument was won a long time ago.


lol......so says the loser.....

Damocles
03-25-2010, 07:22 AM
Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

Don Hirschberg
I didn't call it a religion.

Socrtease
03-25-2010, 08:12 AM
I didn't call it a religion.YOu called it a faith. As an atheist I do not do or not do things because I have faith there is no god. God, or a lack there of does not enter my mind EXCEPT when having discussions like this. I do not think to myself, "I am so glad there is no god so that I can commit this act." or "I can lie because there is no god." The lack of a god does not inhabit my mind like the faith that there is a god is in the minds of the religious. WWJD, He died for my sins, etc. Athiest don't think that way.

Damocles
03-25-2010, 08:29 AM
YOu called it a faith. As an atheist I do not do or not do things because I have faith there is no god. God, or a lack there of does not enter my mind EXCEPT when having discussions like this. I do not think to myself, "I am so glad there is no god so that I can commit this act." or "I can lie because there is no god." The lack of a god does not inhabit my mind like the faith that there is a god is in the minds of the religious. WWJD, He died for my sins, etc. Athiest don't think that way.
LOL. I know it bugs people to think that, but it is much like calling Buddhism a faith. We don't worry about gods, yet it is a "religion" because they meet regularly, speak to morality, and have marriages, etc.

However, there are currently in the US "congregations" of atheists who hold all the trappings of religion. There was a big show about them on the tube just a week or so ago. It was fascinating. Weddings, etc. They even talk about how their morality is soooo much better than the God Believers' morality during their "congregations"...

That is flat a religion now. Just because you, like many Christians, don't show up to the meetings doesn't change that... :D

Socrtease
03-25-2010, 09:51 AM
So my lack of belief in Santa must make that a relgion as well.

AnyOldIron
03-25-2010, 09:54 AM
lol......so says the loser.....

How have I lost?

Socrtease
03-25-2010, 09:56 AM
How have I lost?He thinks Gallileo lost too.

Damocles
03-25-2010, 10:45 AM
So my lack of belief in Santa must make that a relgion as well.
Only if you used it as a basis to get married, gather, and promote a morality with it. It seems that is the criteria to make Theravada Buddhism into a religion.

AnyOldIron
03-25-2010, 11:07 AM
Only if you used it as a basis to get married, gather, and promote a morality with it.

Making a big think of a marriage, or gathering together to discuss a problem (religion) are not defining factors of a religion.

And atheists don't have one single morality.

Damocles
03-25-2010, 11:30 AM
Only if you used it as a basis to get married, gather, and promote a morality with it.

Making a big think of a marriage, or gathering together to discuss a problem (religion) are not defining factors of a religion.

And atheists don't have one single morality.
You'll have to go to one of their services, join the congregation and offer that up during it as an argument as to why they shouldn't do that. Maybe you'll get to see a wedding!

AnyOldIron
03-25-2010, 11:38 AM
You'll have to go to one of their services, join the congregation and offer that up during it as an argument as to why they shouldn't do that. Maybe you'll get to see a wedding!

You are missing my point.

Gathering together for a purpose doesn't make it religious. Even if that purpose is to discuss religion.

Holding a wedding isn't innately religious, nor is holding any ceremony.

The defining part of a religion is the belief in some supernatural entity or force.

Damocles
03-25-2010, 12:25 PM
You are missing my point.

Gathering together for a purpose doesn't make it religious. Even if that purpose is to discuss religion.

Holding a wedding isn't innately religious, nor is holding any ceremony.

The defining part of a religion is the belief in some supernatural entity or force.
You are missing my point, they "congregate" regularly (They are actually called 'Congregations' rather than churches) to preach morality based in Atheism and have ceremonies that relate specifically to their Faith.

That is a religion, it is the same criteria used to say that Theravada Buddhism is a religion even though there is no teaching whatsoever about "gods" or any supernatural being that relates to Theravada Buddhism.

AnyOldIron
03-25-2010, 12:44 PM
All definitions of religion involve some form of supernatural force.

It is just a gathering. By your definition schools are religious; places where people congregate to pass on information. They have ceremonies in schools. From the movie Grease I know you have pep rallies in the US.

DamnYankee
03-25-2010, 12:57 PM
The God / No god argument was won a long time ago.

.... You sound like Al Gore. the High Priest of Warmists.

AnyOldIron
03-25-2010, 01:06 PM
You sound like Al Gore. the High Priest of Warmists.


No, I sound like me.

Want to take the argument for god/s?

DamnYankee
03-25-2010, 01:16 PM
No, I sound like me.

Want to take the argument for god/s?I'm guessing you're a closed-minded atheist. *shrug*

AnyOldIron
03-25-2010, 01:19 PM
I'm guessing you're a closed-minded atheist. *shrug*

I argue the points presented...

Damocles
03-25-2010, 01:22 PM
All definitions of religion involve some form of supernatural force.

It is just a gathering. By your definition schools are religious; places where people congregate to pass on information. They have ceremonies in schools. From the movie Grease I know you have pep rallies in the US.
Untrue, there is no "supernatural" force in Theravada Buddhism. You are mistaken in your understanding of this philosophy and like all Western people tend to mix it up with Tibetan Buddhism and think it's all the same.

AnyOldIron
03-25-2010, 01:24 PM
Untrue, there is no "supernatural" force in Theravada Buddhism. You are mistaken in your understanding of this philosophy and like all Western people tend to mix it up with Tibetan Buddhism and think it's all the same.

Then Theravada Buddhism is not a religion but a philosophical perspective.

DamnYankee
03-25-2010, 01:52 PM
I'm guessing you're a closed-minded atheist. *shrug*

I argue the points presented...

You must have mistaken me for an evangelist. I'm happy that assholes don't go to heaven.

Socrtease
03-25-2010, 02:27 PM
You must have mistaken me for an evangelist. I'm happy that assholes don't go to heaven.If that is true, you should pack your warm weather clothes.

PostmodernProphet
03-25-2010, 02:30 PM
How have I lost?

well, you said the argument was over....and you identify yourself as an atheist missionary......obviously you weren't on the winning side.....

DamnYankee
03-25-2010, 02:48 PM
If that is true, you should pack your warm weather clothes.Sorry for you, I'm living Right. :)

Minister of Truth
03-25-2010, 02:53 PM
All definitions of religion involve some form of supernatural force.

It is just a gathering. By your definition schools are religious; places where people congregate to pass on information. They have ceremonies in schools. From the movie Grease I know you have pep rallies in the US.

We didn't have pep rallies at my high school. Remember, Grease was supposed to depict the 50s. I'm sure they still go on in schools that are really big into sports...

PostmodernProphet
03-25-2010, 06:34 PM
does anyone else find it amusing that the guy denying atheism is a religion calls himself an atheist missionary?......

AnyOldIron
03-27-2010, 02:12 PM
does anyone else find it amusing that the guy denying atheism is a religion calls himself an atheist missionary?......

Missionaries don't have to be religious.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=non+religious+mission+work&revid=288343592&ei=EWauS86RLtS04QaPjPzYDw&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&resnum=0&ct=broad-revision&cd=2&ved=0CDQQ1QIoAQ

A missionary is someone who brings a message to people.

Religious stuff innately has to have some supernatural element...

religion

• noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.



http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/orexxligion?view=uk

PostmodernProphet
03-27-2010, 03:14 PM
A missionary is someone who brings a message to people.


you forgot to capitalize it....let me help "brings a Message to people".....there you go.....

PostmodernProphet
03-27-2010, 03:15 PM
Religious stuff innately has to have some supernatural element...

[B]religion

• noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.


if it innately has to have a supernatural element, why are there two other definitions of "religion" which don't have a supernatural element....two definitions which clearly would apply to atheism, by the way......

AnyOldIron
03-27-2010, 03:24 PM
you forgot to capitalize it....let me help "brings a Message to people".....there you go.....

Not if I were speaking English.

If you meant capitalisation in the Christian manner, it would be the Message.

But I meant 'bring a message to people'.

AnyOldIron
03-27-2010, 03:28 PM
if it innately has to have a supernatural element, why are there two other definitions of "religion" which don't have a supernatural element....two definitions which clearly would apply to atheism, by the way......

There is no worship or devotion in atheism.

There is only faith inasmuch as no knowledge can be absolute.

FUCK THE POLICE
03-27-2010, 07:49 PM
LOL. I know it bugs people to think that, but it is much like calling Buddhism a faith. We don't worry about gods, yet it is a "religion" because they meet regularly, speak to morality, and have marriages, etc.

However, there are currently in the US "congregations" of atheists who hold all the trappings of religion. There was a big show about them on the tube just a week or so ago. It was fascinating. Weddings, etc. They even talk about how their morality is soooo much better than the God Believers' morality during their "congregations"...

That is flat a religion now. Just because you, like many Christians, don't show up to the meetings doesn't change that... :D

Where was that?

FUCK THE POLICE
03-27-2010, 07:51 PM
they "congregate" regularly

No, atheists do not. I have no idea what you are talking about.

If we were to make a church, what would we do? Make fun of religious people all the time? That's only fun to a point.

FUCK THE POLICE
03-27-2010, 07:53 PM
Untrue, there is no "supernatural" force in Theravada Buddhism.

You said you believe in karma as a literal force. It would have to be supernatural.

Wait, are you Theravada?

cancel2 2022
03-27-2010, 08:40 PM
lol......so says the loser.....

PiMP has spoken, all hail the PiMP!! I suppose we ought to be grateful that you didn't say looser.

PostmodernProphet
03-28-2010, 06:21 AM
PiMP has spoken, all hail the PiMP!! I suppose we ought to be grateful that you didn't say looser.

I'm a bit disappointed in your groveling.....if you were sincere I would expect the dirt to be on your nose instead of your mind.......

Damocles
03-28-2010, 08:52 AM
No, atheists do not. I have no idea what you are talking about.

If we were to make a church, what would we do? Make fun of religious people all the time? That's only fun to a point.
Hey, watermark. Some do. You might not like it, but some do, they perform marriages in their "Congregations", they actually have a leader who preaches humanist morality and other things...

The reality is, some people most definitely do treat it as, and participate in it as, a religion. I've made this point before, I'll make it again, and it is very real.

Damocles
03-28-2010, 08:52 AM
You said you believe in karma as a literal force. It would have to be supernatural.

Wait, are you Theravada?
That is me, not all Buddhists. When I said that I made it clear that Theravada Buddhism doesn't cover this at all and that they were my personal beliefs.

What part of that is difficult for you to understand?

Hermes Thoth
04-02-2010, 05:35 AM
That is me, not all Buddhists. When I said that I made it clear that Theravada Buddhism doesn't cover this at all and that they were my personal beliefs.

What part of that is difficult for you to understand?

I guess people assume when you say your part of a religion, that you will believe the teachings of the religion, not some stuff you made up on your own.

Damocles
04-02-2010, 07:26 AM
I guess people assume when you say your part of a religion, that you will believe the teachings of the religion, not some stuff you made up on your own.
Why?

Everybody believes stuff they make up on their own. Some just try to make the stuff they believe fit within the framework of a dogma.

Theravada Buddhism doesn't have a dogma. You get to believe what you figure out for yourself. Even the Buddha says that believing in something because some Priest tells you is foolish, you need to use the brain that you have.

Hermes Thoth
04-02-2010, 07:41 AM
Why?

Everybody believes stuff they make up on their own. Some just try to make the stuff they believe fit within the framework of a dogma.

Theravada Buddhism doesn't have a dogma. You get to believe what you figure out for yourself. Even the Buddha says that believing in something because some Priest tells you is foolish, you need to use the brain that you have.

Fine, religions are not fixed beliefs. They are malleable according to whimsy.

Hermes Thoth
04-02-2010, 07:42 AM
WHy do you need buddhism to think for yourself. Just be an atheist.

Hermes Thoth
04-02-2010, 07:44 AM
Mother may i... think for myself.

Hermes Thoth
04-02-2010, 07:46 AM
does buddhism espouse some kind of interhuman morality, like how you should relate to others, etc?

Damocles
04-02-2010, 08:19 AM
does buddhism espouse some kind of interhuman morality, like how you should relate to others, etc?
Buddhism teaches a path to a state of mind that is the unvoiced goal of most people through introspection and right action. It takes many years to fully understand Buddhism, especially for those in Western society, expecting to be able to get it on a bumpersticker because that is what you want wastes both your time and mine.

Hermes Thoth
04-02-2010, 08:26 AM
Buddhism teaches a path to a state of mind that is the unvoiced goal of most people through introspection and right action. It takes many years to fully understand Buddhism, especially for those in Western society, expecting to be able to get it on a bumpersticker because that is what you want wastes both your time and mine.

Bullshit. don't be such a haughty fuck.

Hermes Thoth
04-02-2010, 08:27 AM
What's right action?

Hermes Thoth
04-02-2010, 08:35 AM
anyway. sorry about my belligerent fucking tone this good friday.

Hermes Thoth
04-02-2010, 08:42 AM
1. Right View

Right view is the beginning and the end of the path, it simply means to see and to understand things as they really are and to realise the Four Noble Truth. As such, right view is the cognitive aspect of wisdom. It means to see things through, to grasp the impermanent and imperfect nature of worldly objects and ideas, and to understand the law of karma and karmic conditioning. Right view is not necessarily an intellectual capacity, just as wisdom is not just a matter of intelligence. Instead, right view is attained, sustained, and enhanced through all capacities of mind. It begins with the intuitive insight that all beings are subject to suffering and it ends with complete understanding of the true nature of all things. Since our view of the world forms our thoughts and our actions, right view yields right thoughts and right actions.


Damo, your refusal to admit the totalitarian power of fiat currency, the stated goals of the central bankers to control the entire world, and the freely observable creeping internationalist fascism, keeps your from achieving step one of the eight fold path. seeing things as they are.

Damocles
04-02-2010, 08:45 AM
anyway. sorry about my belligerent fucking tone this good friday.
I've often wondered what was so good about it, they took a rabbi and nailed him to a cross for performing miracles on the Sabbath. It's almost like celebrating and calling it "Good Friday" because they are killing that Lebanese dude today after convicting him of "Sorcery"...

PostmodernProphet
04-02-2010, 11:22 AM
Buddhist bumper sticker....
"My other car THINKS it's a Porsche"......

Socrtease
04-02-2010, 05:46 PM
I've often wondered what was so good about it, they took a rabbi and nailed him to a cross for performing miracles on the Sabbath. It's almost like celebrating and calling it "Good Friday" because they are killing that Lebanese dude today after convicting him of "Sorcery"...Obviously whoever called it Good Friday had never been nailed to a tree after having been whipped, crowned with a thorn of crowns and then nailed to a tree. If he had I think he would have called it AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Friday.

cancel2 2022
04-02-2010, 07:47 PM
If that is true, you should pack your warm weather clothes.

He ought to pack some asbestos underwear, just in case!

davidmabus
04-03-2010, 08:07 PM
CARPET BOMBING... LAMB POWER!


Crystal Night, Atheists!


FINALE:



Have I said this before?


http://nostra.comoj.com/


PULLING THE PLUG on atheism


http://www.firstscience.com/site/articles/coles.asp




http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3332/3228845133_3599f8108f.jpg



bye


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20090126/as-indonesia-solar-eclipse/images/c52d9d50-7ca2-4c3a-b13c-c866836298c8.jpg



Einstein puts the final nail in the coffin of atheism...


*************************************

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7vpw4AH8QQ

*************************************



atheists deny their own life element...




LIGHT OR DEATH, ATHEISTS?


********************************
***************************LIGHT*********
************************************

___________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC7Sg41Bp-U



E=MC2

____________


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmtK-X_MV0k&feature=fvw


DOWN THE TOILET!!!


________


http://open.salon.com/blog/sandra_no_longer_miller/2009/02/13/files/lamb1234553042.jpg


LAMB POWER!

Hermes Thoth
04-04-2010, 07:02 AM
David mabus. Please take your god lies and vacate.


Scientists are also saying AGW is real, but those are the scientistst that lie on behalf of totalitarians.

The scientists that lie about god are just as corrupt.

Socrtease
04-04-2010, 10:19 AM
and don't forget, Einstein was a jew! Probably did that whole relativity thing to prove that Jews were gods people.

Hermes Thoth
04-04-2010, 11:21 AM
and don't forget, Einstein was a jew! Probably did that whole relativity thing to prove that Jews were gods people.

Einsteins success in science really has nothing to do with his idiot claims about god. In fact, those god idiot remarks makes me think einstein stole most of his ideas from white people when he was working at the patent office.

Damn jew parasites!:)

Socrtease
04-12-2010, 11:40 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo

Thorn
04-12-2010, 11:49 AM
Wow, really interesting! Do you know when this video was made? It seems reminiscent of some '70s music and videos, has a similar aura about it.

Minister of Truth
04-12-2010, 12:34 PM
Look what happens when you no longer have great prophets like Josef running around. You wind up having to settle for second-rate nobodies such as david fucking mabus!!!

Socrtease
04-12-2010, 05:09 PM
Wow, really interesting! Do you know when this video was made? It seems reminiscent of some '70s music and videos, has a similar aura about it.The song is from 1987, the child's voice is the daughter of Todd Lundgren. It was picked up alot by DJ's all over america and was followed up in many forward thinking areas of the US by death and bomb threats from those tolerent christians someone was talking about last week.

Damocles
04-12-2010, 08:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo
Wow, I like that. Oddly enough.

Socrtease
04-12-2010, 09:05 PM
Wow, I like that. Oddly enough.One of my favorite videos from the 80's

signalmankenneth
04-13-2010, 04:19 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/christian-b-hypocrisy.jpg

signalmankenneth
04-13-2010, 04:58 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/christian-b-hypocrisy.jpg

http://www.bartcop.com/jesus-ta-dah.jpg

Good Luck
04-13-2010, 07:46 PM
Good Friday is so named because what happened was a tragic necessity. Without a perfect sacrifice, our sins could not be forgiven us. Jesus was tortured and crucified as the perfect sacrifice, which on the surface seems tragic. But His suffering and death opened the door for our repentance for our sins - thus God turns a tragedy into Good for all mankind..

On Easter morning, Jesus, the Christ, rose from the dead, opening the door to eternal life for us all, if we are willing to accept Him as our Lord.

Good Luck
04-13-2010, 07:54 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/jesus-ta-dah.jpg
First cartoon - yes, there are certainly a fair share of Christian hypocrites. Sad, that. Does not make us all such. Actually, it's a minority. Also, many atheists out there consider the mere mention of religion as some type of attack, therefore have a perception of hypocrisy against any who have the "gall" to stand up for their religious beliefs.

Second cartoon: typical atheist anti-religion bullshit. God did NOT create original sin. He placed Adam and Eve in Paradise with just ONE lousy little rule: do not eat of the fruit of the tree at the center of the Garden. Adam and Eve were unable to follow that one simple rule. It was Man, not God, who created original sin by choosing to not obey God. And God, in His infinite mercy, gave His only Son to be the necessary perfect sacrifice, so that Man has the hope of repentance - and through repentance, forgiveness, for their sins and through that, hope for eternal life in the presence of God.

Socrtease
04-13-2010, 11:38 PM
First cartoon - yes, there are certainly a fair share of Christian hypocrites. Sad, that. Does not make us all such. Actually, it's a minority. Also, many atheists out there consider the mere mention of religion as some type of attack, therefore have a perception of hypocrisy against any who have the "gall" to stand up for their religious beliefs.

Second cartoon: typical atheist anti-religion bullshit. God did NOT create original sin. He placed Adam and Eve in Paradise with just ONE lousy little rule: do not eat of the fruit of the tree at the center of the Garden. Adam and Eve were unable to follow that one simple rule. It was Man, not God, who created original sin by choosing to not obey God. And God, in His infinite mercy, gave His only Son to be the necessary perfect sacrifice, so that Man has the hope of repentance - and through repentance, forgiveness, for their sins and through that, hope for eternal life in the presence of God.Why would he place the tree there in the first place. god is supposedly omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. He KNEW at the time he placed the tree there that Adam and Eve would eat of the tree. If you believe the myth, he knew the EXACT time and day that Eve would offer the apple to Adam. He KNEW that Adam would except. So why go to all that trouble. Why not just punish them outright. You know, I tell my three year old not to do things all the time, but I don't punish them to the extent that your god did Adam and Eve and I don't even KNOW when or if my children will disobey me.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 05:50 AM
Why would he place the tree there in the first place. god is supposedly omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. He KNEW at the time he placed the tree there that Adam and Eve would eat of the tree. If you believe the myth, he knew the EXACT time and day that Eve would offer the apple to Adam. He KNEW that Adam would except. So why go to all that trouble. Why not just punish them outright. You know, I tell my three year old not to do things all the time, but I don't punish them to the extent that your god did Adam and Eve and I don't even KNOW when or if my children will disobey me. Wrong, because He gave them free will.

PostmodernProphet
04-15-2010, 06:04 AM
Why would he place the tree there in the first place. god is supposedly omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. He KNEW at the time he placed the tree there that Adam and Eve would eat of the tree. If you believe the myth, he knew the EXACT time and day that Eve would offer the apple to Adam. He KNEW that Adam would except. So why go to all that trouble. Why not just punish them outright. You know, I tell my three year old not to do things all the time, but I don't punish them to the extent that your god did Adam and Eve and I don't even KNOW when or if my children will disobey me.

do you want your three year old to love you because he chooses to or because he is incapable of doing anything else?.....

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 07:19 AM
do you want your three year old to love you because he chooses to or because he is incapable of doing anything else?.....You don't get it, no matter how bad my three year old disobeyed me I would not condemn them to an equivilent of hell. As for the free will argument, it doesn't matter if Adam or Eve had free will, God, if he is omniscient and omnipresent KNEW that Adam and Eve would use their free will to disobey him, at the very moment he planted the tree. Unless you believers want to tell me that God cannot see into the future.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 08:55 AM
You don't get it, no matter how bad my three year old disobeyed me I would not condemn them to an equivilent of hell. As for the free will argument, it doesn't matter if Adam or Eve had free will, God, if he is omniscient and omnipresent KNEW that Adam and Eve would use their free will to disobey him, at the very moment he planted the tree. Unless you believers want to tell me that God cannot see into the future. Obviously you don't understand what free will is. It means that the person has absolute freedom to decide what he does next, completely independent of his Creator. Human beings aren't robots. There's no way that God can know what His creation will do at any given time and place. And because we have free will, we also get to decide how to behave, then we have to face the consequences of heaven or hell. God doesn't decide where we end up. He just sets up the rules and we choose to follow them or not.

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 10:15 AM
Obviously you don't understand what free will is. It means that the person has absolute freedom to decide what he does next, completely independent of his Creator. Human beings aren't robots. There's no way that God can know what His creation will do at any given time and place. And because we have free will, we also get to decide how to behave, then we have to face the consequences of heaven or hell. God doesn't decide where we end up. He just sets up the rules and we choose to follow them or not.So this part of the bible is wrong?

"Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I haw appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5).

This indicates that god is omniscient, can see into the future. So if you say this is not true, I will drop it. God can't see into the future. But if Jeremiah 1:5 is true, then god CAN see into the future and knows what our actions will be including knowing that Adam and Eve would disobey him BEFORE he told them not to eat of the tree. Which would be stupid because he could have avoided their disobedience by just putting a big ass wall around the tree, or not putting it in the garden. So, can god see into the future? The bible says he can and it says he knew and consecrated Jeremiah BEFORE he was born.

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 10:25 AM
See the problem you believers have is you don't understand that we can have free will and nonetheless, an omniscient god can still see what the outcomes of our use of that free will will be. Adam and Eve didn't know they were going to eat the apple when they did, but god did, god could watch the whole thing play out BEFORE he even created them and would KNOW that Adam and Eve would disobey him. So the question is, knowing what he knew, why give them the choice at all? Either keep the tree away from them, or tell them, you two are going to eat from this tree, thus disobeying me, therefore, I am just throwing everyone out of the pool now.

Jeremiah shows, within the context of the biblical story, that god is omniscient and therefore knows everything that will happen before it happens. Sees what choices we make before we are even born and the outcomes of those choices.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 10:59 AM
So this part of the bible is wrong?

"Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I haw appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5).

This indicates that god is omniscient, can see into the future. So if you say this is not true, I will drop it. God can't see into the future. But if Jeremiah 1:5 is true, then god CAN see into the future and knows what our actions will be including knowing that Adam and Eve would disobey him BEFORE he told them not to eat of the tree. Which would be stupid because he could have avoided their disobedience by just putting a big ass wall around the tree, or not putting it in the garden. So, can god see into the future? The bible says he can and it says he knew and consecrated Jeremiah BEFORE he was born.I think that passage indicates exactly what it says, that God made the individual He's speaking to as a prophet on the day that he was created.

You seem to imply that God has a much more detailed plan, not just for that individual but for everyone, and that plan is detailed down to the fruit that we eat on a particular day. That's obviously not the case.

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 11:07 AM
I think that passage indicates exactly what it says, that God made the individual He's speaking to as a prophet on the day that he was created.

You seem to imply that God has a much more detailed plan, not just for that individual but for everyone, and that plan is detailed down to the fruit that we eat on a particular day. That's obviously not the case.No, BEFORE he was in the womb, as an egg, he knew he would be prophet. This is the problem, you want to be a plain language reader of the constitution but not the bible. The passage speaks of omniscience, not just general hopes for the future. God NEW before Jeremiah was in the womb, that he would be a prophet. Not that he hoped he would be, but that he WOULD be. That is knowledge of the future, unless you are saying god cannot see into the future. Then he's not much of a god is he.

This has nothing to do with god's plan. Whether god wants it or not, he sees it before it happens. He is omniscient. He can see what choices we make before we actually make them.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 11:09 AM
See the problem you believers have is you don't understand that we can have free will and nonetheless, an omniscient god can still see what the outcomes of our use of that free will will be. Again, that's not free will. Free will is such that the Creator the opportunity to make choices and has no control over that.

For the example of a parent and child, your version of free will would be like telling the child that she can have anything that she wants for lunch, then making her eat a baloney sandwich. Actual free will means that if she wants Ben and Jerry's bacon flavored ice cream and if its available, she gets that.

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 11:14 AM
Again, that's not free will. Free will is such that the Creator the opportunity to make choices and has no control over that.

For the example of a parent and child, your version of free will would be like telling the child that she can have anything that she wants for lunch, then making her eat a baloney sandwich. Actual free will means that if she wants Ben and Jerry's bacon flavored ice cream and if its available, she gets that.You really don't understand omniscience do you. It can be your choice, but god is going to know what choice you made before you made it. If he doesn't then he is not omniscient. I am not saying god has ANY hand in it, but he knows the outcome anyway, otherwise he is not omniscient and that makes him a pretty limited god.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 11:16 AM
No, BEFORE he was in the womb, as an egg, he knew he would be prophet. This is the problem, you want to be a plain language reader of the constitution but not the bible. The passage speaks of omniscience, not just general hopes for the future. God NEW before Jeremiah was in the womb, that he would be a prophet. Not that he hoped he would be, but that he WOULD be. That is knowledge of the future, unless you are saying god cannot see into the future. Then he's not much of a god is he. The Bible is not the Constitution so shouldn't be read the same. But that's irrelevant here.

The passage was written after Jeremiah was a prophet, not while he was an egg. That's like me saying to my son, graduating from high school that I knew that he would be a good student before he was born. I knew that then because I had a general plan as well as control over much of his life experiences, not that I planed out ever minute detail, down to the particular fruit that he was to eat on a particular day.

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 11:18 AM
Obviously you don't understand what free will is. It means that the person has absolute freedom to decide what he does next, completely independent of his Creator. Human beings aren't robots. There's no way that God can know what His creation will do at any given time and place. And because we have free will, we also get to decide how to behave, then we have to face the consequences of heaven or hell. God doesn't decide where we end up. He just sets up the rules and we choose to follow them or not.

Ok I missed the highlighted part. So what you are saying is that according to the bible god is limited on his ability to see the future. So he cannot violate laws of time and space?

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 11:28 AM
Ok I missed the highlighted part. So what you are saying is that according to the bible god is limited on his ability to see the future. So he cannot violate laws of time and space?
I think that he can transcend time and space and if He chose to could plan out our lives, but chooses not to because He values free will above all else. Yeah, even more than human pain and suffering.

That's why I think the Constitution is so important, because it acknowledges the fact the God gave man freedom, or free will, and that man in turn set up a basic methodology, through limited government, for making sure that he'd have as much freedom as possible.

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 11:33 AM
Mark 8:31 shows that god has knowledge of the future and that he gave that knowledge to Yeshua.

"He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again."

This was something Jesus knew before it happened, he knew what the priests and the scribes would do, in the exersize of their free will, before they did it. That knowledge was divine and it was knowledge of future acts. That is what I keep trying to say, just because god KNOWS what people are going to do does not mean he is the cause.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 11:45 AM
Mark 8:31 shows that god has knowledge of the future and that he gave that knowledge to Yeshua.

"He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again."

This was something Jesus knew before it happened, he knew what the priests and the scribes would do, in the exersize of their free will, before they did it. That knowledge was divine and it was knowledge of future acts. That is what I keep trying to say, just because god KNOWS what people are going to do does not mean he is the cause. The way I read that is that God has an intimate knowledge of what man will do, not that he controls every aspect of it.

For instance I know generally how my son will react if I say, take his car keys away from him. That doesn't mean that I have control over his subsequent behavior.

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 12:21 PM
Jesus KNEW Judas would betray him. He KNEW Peter would deny him, and how many times and what time of the day.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 02:13 PM
Jesus KNEW Judas would betray him. He KNEW Peter would deny him, and how many times and what time of the day.And they had free will to do what they did. They weren't robots.

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 02:45 PM
And they had free will to do what they did. They weren't robots.absolutely. Now, why, if god knew that Adam and Eve were GOING to eat the apple, did he put the tree where they could be disobedient. That makes no sense. He KNEW they were going to eat the apple just as Jesus knew that before the Rooster crowed Peter would deny him three times. Why not just create them and forget the garden. He KNEW they were going to disobey.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 02:51 PM
absolutely. Now, why, if god knew that Adam and Eve were GOING to eat the apple, did he put the tree where they could be disobedient. That makes no sense. He KNEW they were going to eat the apple just as Jesus knew that before the Rooster crowed Peter would deny him three times. Why not just create them and forget the garden. He KNEW they were going to disobey. And you KNOW this how?

Adam and Eve didn't have to "eat the apple".

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 02:59 PM
And you KNOW this how?

Adam and Eve didn't have to "eat the apple".I know this because the bible has ample evidence that god is omniscient. He can see the future. So he KNEW they were going to disobey them but set them up for it anyway.

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 03:02 PM
God can be omniscient but not interfere. Doesn't make him very benevolent though.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 03:05 PM
I know this because the bible has ample evidence that god is omniscient. He can see the future. So he KNEW they were going to disobey them but set them up for it anyway. You've shown your ability to misinterpret in the two passages that you quoted, so my guess is that you did that for the remainder. Try reading with an open mind next time. Or take a Bible Study class.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 03:06 PM
God can be omniscient but not interfere. Doesn't make him very benevolent though. I believe He can "interfere". Otherwise I'd be a deist.

Minister of Truth
04-15-2010, 03:09 PM
God can be omniscient but not interfere. Doesn't make him very benevolent though.

If you believe He should interfere, and that said interference would be benevolent, you aren't much of a libertarian...

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 03:10 PM
I believe He can "interfere". Otherwise I'd be a deist.I didn't say he COULDN'T interfere, I only said he doesn't have to. There is nothing to interpret in Jesus forseeing his betrayal and his denial, and he is so precise with that it can only be seen as knowledge of the future. And your interpretation of Jeremiah is a far greater reach than is mine.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 03:11 PM
God made beer and breasts, and this alone should be evidence enough that he loves y'all very much. Do you want him to wipe the drool off your chin too?

Minister of Truth
04-15-2010, 03:13 PM
God made beer and breasts, and this alone should be evidence enough that he loves y'all very much. Do you want him to wipe the drool off your chin too?

:yay:

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 03:14 PM
I didn't say he COULDN'T interfere, I only said he doesn't have to. There is nothing to interpret in Jesus forseeing his betrayal and his denial, and he is so precise with that it can only be seen as knowledge of the future. And your interpretation of Jeremiah is a far greater reach than is mine.
Your use of the word "precise" is curious. I can think of other ways for the Scriptures to have been fulfilled then the precise order of events that made up His life on Earth.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 03:14 PM
:yay::clink:

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 03:20 PM
Your use of the word "precise" is curious. I can think of other ways for the Scriptures to have been fulfilled then the precise order of events that made up His life on Earth.I don't care, all I know is that the bible shows that god is omniscient and with that omniscience comes the ability to see into the future.

Minister of Truth
04-15-2010, 03:22 PM
I don't care, all I know is that the bible shows that god is omniscient and with that omniscience comes the ability to see into the future.

Which was a moronic argument in the time of Calvin, and remains a moronic argument today.

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 03:23 PM
I don't care, all I know is that the bible shows that god is omniscient and with that omniscience comes the ability to see into the future. Yet He gives us free will anyway. I guess He likes a surprise once in a while.

Do you thing God planned WW2? Or 9-11?

Socrtease
04-15-2010, 04:05 PM
Yet He gives us free will anyway. I guess He likes a surprise once in a while.

Do you thing God planned WW2? Or 9-11?First off, I don't believe in god. I think the whole thing is a good thought experiment, but to say that your god is limited in his omniscience and cannot see the future is to make him non-godlike. In the realm of our discussion I do not think god planned WWII or 9-11, but I believe a god like that would KNOW about them and leave man to deal with it.

Minister of Truth
04-15-2010, 04:09 PM
First off, I don't believe in god. I think the whole thing is a good thought experiment, but to say that your god is limited in his omniscience and cannot see the future is to make him non-godlike. In the realm of our discussion I do not think god planned WWII or 9-11, but I believe a god like that would KNOW about them and leave man to deal with it.

Thank God.

PostmodernProphet
04-15-2010, 04:26 PM
You don't get it, no matter how bad my three year old disobeyed me I would not condemn them to an equivilent of hell. As for the free will argument, it doesn't matter if Adam or Eve had free will, God, if he is omniscient and omnipresent KNEW that Adam and Eve would use their free will to disobey him, at the very moment he planted the tree. Unless you believers want to tell me that God cannot see into the future.

and you don't get it....the only ones who end up in hell are the ones who choose to do so....

PostmodernProphet
04-15-2010, 04:28 PM
Which would be stupid because he could have avoided their disobedience by just putting a big ass wall around the tree, or not putting it in the garden.

do you really think that would have stopped them from being disobedient in some other manner?.....

PostmodernProphet
04-15-2010, 04:29 PM
So the question is, knowing what he knew, why give them the choice at all?

because of the question you refused to answer before....do you want your three year old to love you because he chooses to or because he is incapable of doing anything else....

PostmodernProphet
04-15-2010, 04:32 PM
I know this because the bible has ample evidence that god is omniscient. He can see the future. So he KNEW they were going to disobey them but set them up for it anyway.

he didn't "set them up"....he didn't force them to disobey....it was still their choice....

PostmodernProphet
04-15-2010, 04:33 PM
God can be omniscient but not interfere. Doesn't make him very benevolent though.

it's his forgiveness of disobedience that makes him benevolent....

PostmodernProphet
04-15-2010, 04:35 PM
I don't care, all I know is that the bible shows that god is omniscient and with that omniscience comes the ability to see into the future.

I agree...

DamnYankee
04-15-2010, 05:33 PM
First off, I don't believe in god. I think the whole thing is a good thought experiment, but to say that your god is limited in his omniscience and cannot see the future is to make him non-godlike. In the realm of our discussion I do not think god planned WWII or 9-11, but I believe a god like that would KNOW about them and leave man to deal with it.
If God is omniscient and didn't plan WW2 and 9-11 then how was He supposed to know about them happening in the future? The only explanation is that He didn't know about them, because man has free will.

Socrtease
04-16-2010, 12:38 AM
do you really think that would have stopped them from being disobedient in some other manner?.....A benevolent god does not set his creation up to fail.

Socrtease
04-16-2010, 12:40 AM
If God is omniscient and didn't plan WW2 and 9-11 then how was He supposed to know about them happening in the future? The only explanation is that He didn't know about them, because man has free will.

Wrong. God can know but not interfere. Again, knowing and not doing anything about it makes him a malevolent god.

PostmodernProphet
04-16-2010, 05:17 AM
A benevolent god does not set his creation up to fail.

agreed....he didn't....

DamnYankee
04-16-2010, 06:16 AM
Wrong. God can know but not interfere. Again, knowing and not doing anything about it makes him a malevolent god.

That's the deists' view, which is incorrect. Think about it logically. How could God know an exact event 1000 years into the future when everything in the universe is connected? One small change at one point can change the course of the future. A butterfly flaps its wings...

Socrtease
04-16-2010, 06:48 AM
That's the deists' view, which is incorrect. Think about it logically. How could God know an exact event 1000 years into the future when everything in the universe is connected? One small change at one point can change the course of the future. A butterfly flaps its wings...So god is chained to the here and now. God is as powerless as you or I to know the future?

DamnYankee
04-16-2010, 06:50 AM
So god is chained to the here and now. God is as powerless as you or I to know the future?No. Obviously he has a general plan, perhaps with a few specifics, but free will can change that. There is no promise of success for mankind. People could really fuck things up if they want to.

Good Luck
04-16-2010, 10:32 AM
Omniscience, including knowledge of the future, does not necessarily indicate planning for events to turn out that way. God created humankind in His image. That does not mean we look like God. (what does a being capable of existing outside the parameters of space-time "look" like?) It means He gave us the ability to freely choose between good and evil.

But what purpose of giving us the ability to choose between good and evil if He then protects us from anything evil? May as well make us automatons pre-programmed for good. That is why he put the tree of knowledge in the center of the Garden even knowing in advance what the outcome would be: because without the opportunity to choose, there is no purpose in creating us with the ability to choose.

Again, knowing the future does not necessarily mean planning the future. Any good parent can anticipate the actions of their children in a particular set of circumstances. Does that mean they PLAN for every thing their child chooses to do, or the natural consequences of those choices? As parents we guide our children according to age and ability to understand cause-effect. Younger children we guide more closely, deliberately limiting the scope of their choices in activity and behavior. As they get older, we loosen the apron strings, giving them more freedom and responsibility. And then we let them go on their own, hoping and praying that they continue to apply successfully the lessons we tried to instill in them.

Yes, God knew WWII and 9-11 were coming while He was still saying "Let there be light!" But that does not mean he PLANNED for it to happen that way. It was the free choice he gave to us that led to those and all other events, whether good, evil or neutral. And like a loving parent, He guided us. He directly interacted with Adam and Eve, even while giving them the choice of the Tree. Later he sent us the Prophets, and at given times directly interfered with events - all the while continuing to allow us to make our own choices. He made consequences for poor choices, and as parents we emulate that by making consequences for our children for breaking the rules we create.

And through it all, He loved us. A parent who punishes their child for making a wrong choice does not love them any less. In fact a parent who takes the time out to make rules, enforce them, AND dish out consequences when rules are broken are the parents most demonstrating their love for their children. And part of His love resulted in Him sending His Son to us, so that through the Christ, we may have perfect repentance for our sins, and through that, a path to everlasting life.

Hermes Thoth
04-17-2010, 03:04 AM
Omniscience, including knowledge of the future, does not necessarily indicate planning for events to turn out that way. God created humankind in His image. That does not mean we look like God. (what does a being capable of existing outside the parameters of space-time "look" like?) It means He gave us the ability to freely choose between good and evil.

But what purpose of giving us the ability to choose between good and evil if He then protects us from anything evil? May as well make us automatons pre-programmed for good. That is why he put the tree of knowledge in the center of the Garden even knowing in advance what the outcome would be: because without the opportunity to choose, there is no purpose in creating us with the ability to choose.

Again, knowing the future does not necessarily mean planning the future. Any good parent can anticipate the actions of their children in a particular set of circumstances. Does that mean they PLAN for every thing their child chooses to do, or the natural consequences of those choices? As parents we guide our children according to age and ability to understand cause-effect. Younger children we guide more closely, deliberately limiting the scope of their choices in activity and behavior. As they get older, we loosen the apron strings, giving them more freedom and responsibility. And then we let them go on their own, hoping and praying that they continue to apply successfully the lessons we tried to instill in them.

Yes, God knew WWII and 9-11 were coming while He was still saying "Let there be light!" But that does not mean he PLANNED for it to happen that way. It was the free choice he gave to us that led to those and all other events, whether good, evil or neutral. And like a loving parent, He guided us. He directly interacted with Adam and Eve, even while giving them the choice of the Tree. Later he sent us the Prophets, and at given times directly interfered with events - all the while continuing to allow us to make our own choices. He made consequences for poor choices, and as parents we emulate that by making consequences for our children for breaking the rules we create.

And through it all, He loved us. A parent who punishes their child for making a wrong choice does not love them any less. In fact a parent who takes the time out to make rules, enforce them, AND dish out consequences when rules are broken are the parents most demonstrating their love for their children. And part of His love resulted in Him sending His Son to us, so that through the Christ, we may have perfect repentance for our sins, and through that, a path to everlasting life.

It's sad to see a decent mind like yours wasted on this trash.

DamnYankee
04-17-2010, 08:01 AM
It's sad to see a decent mind like yours wasted on this trash.
Hey the shit's real man. You should try it.

Minister of Truth
04-17-2010, 05:12 PM
It's sad to see a decent mind like yours wasted on this white trash.

I don't think anyone here wastes their mind on you.

Damocles
04-20-2010, 08:18 PM
Well, I'm thoroughly convinced. I'll now convert to Paganism, because I know that I can't be an Atheist anymore because some dude posted his "last post ever"...

Minister of Truth
04-20-2010, 11:52 PM
Well, I'm thoroughly convinced. I'll now convert to Paganism, because I know that I can't be an Atheist anymore because some dude posted his "last post ever"...

With lots of conviction, too!! :woot:

Hermes Thoth
04-21-2010, 03:59 AM
I don't think anyone here wastes their mind on you.

Yeah. except you've nearly had a mental breakdown trying to refute me with your idiot elitist globalist neocon propaganda. Youre only fooling yourself, idjit.