Fidel Castro: Hero, Villain (or Heroic Villain)?

[OrnotBitwise]

Anyone else have a lingering -- or grudging -- respect for Fidel? I do, I freely admit. This is NOT to say that his government is especially enlightened or that he's really built a worker's paradise in Cuba. It isn't and he hasn't. I do grant him a couple of points though.

One is that his regime is better than the Batista government was, at least for the majority of Cubans. That's on balance, of course, not on every single criterion. Many of the charges levelled at Castro -- especially the valid ones, about freedom of expression and the like -- could be made with just as much justice against the former regime.

Another is that he's one hell of a smart and feisty survivor. He's managed to keep his runty little nation afloat in a sea of much larger and more powerful predators. And he's done it while remaining an irritant.

[Cypress]

He's not Mao, Stalin or Hitler.

He's not the boogie man that he was made out to be.

He certainly severly limited political freedom and was repressive to regime opponents. But, the numbers don't lie: cubans, on balance, are better off than under the Batista regime - at least in terms of social services and education.

One does hope that after Fidel, they will evolve more political freedom, though.

[OrnotBitwise]

He's not Mao, Stalin or Hitler.

He's not the boogie man that he was made out to be.

He certainly severly limited political freedom and was repressive to regime opponents. But, the numbers don't lie: cubans, on balance, are better off than under the Batista regime - at least in terms of social services and education.

One does hope that after Fidel, they will evolve more political freedom, though.
That's what they hope for too. ;)

[Cancel7]

Anyone else have a lingering -- or grudging -- respect for Fidel? I do, I freely admit. This is NOT to say that his government is especially enlightened or that he's really built a worker's paradise in Cuba. It isn't and he hasn't. I do grant him a couple of points though.

One is that his regime is better than the Batista government was, at least for the majority of Cubans. That's on balance, of course, not on every single criterion. Many of the charges levelled at Castro -- especially the valid ones, about freedom of expression and the like -- could be made with just as much justice against the former regime.

Another is that he's one hell of a smart and feisty survivor. He's managed to keep his runty little nation afloat in a sea of much larger and more powerful predators. And he's done it while remaining an irritant.


Ornot, what is this? Some sort of "nuance"? WTF do you think you're doing here? You are either with us, or you are against us, ok?

There is no in between, no gray, none of this.

Now knock it off with these kind of posts before I have the Ministry of Love come to your home and kick your butt good for you.

[OrnotBitwise]

Ornot, what is this? Some sort of "nuance"? WTF do you think you're doing here? You are either with us, or you are against us, ok?

There is no in between, no gray, none of this.

Now knock it off with these kind of posts before I have the Ministry of Love come to your home and kick your butt good for you.
:whip:

[IHateGovernment]

I have no repsect for Castro. He betrayed the ideals he fought for. He certainly is no Che thats for sure.

Yes he is much better than Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. But a dictator who uses repression to control his people and stifle their human rights doesn't get much respect from me.

But then what should I expect from a watermelon? :)

[IHateGovernment]

There are some despots I admire a little bit like Robespierre, Ho Chi Minh, Lenin, and Lee Kuan Yew. Just in case you thought I immediately wrote off a leader just because they were a dictator.

[Topspin]

Ornot maybe you should say greencommunist for party

[IHateGovernment]

What do you think a Watermelon is Top?

[klaatu]

This is such an enlightening thread ..I love it !!! ROFLMAO!!!
The American Lefts ongoing love affair with Castro ...

One of the many pleasures I have had in my 8 years of living in South Florida is the camaraderie I have established with the Cuban People.
There is no tolerance for dictators .. not on any level ... and he is the boogeyman Cypress ...why dont you take your ass down there and try living under such a regime ... what a friggin clown you are!

But I do agree with you ornot... he is one hell of a smart and feisty survivor.
And I also think it has been a mistake on our part cutting off Diplomatic relations ... it never worked and it hasnt amounted to much ....

[Cypress]

This is such an enlightening thread ..I love it !!! ROFLMAO!!!
The American Lefts ongoing love affair with Castro ...

One of the many pleasures I have had in my 8 years of living in South Florida is the camaraderie I have established with the Cuban People.
There is no tolerance for dictators .. not on any level ... and he is the boogeyman Cypress ...why dont you take your ass down there and try living under such a regime ... what a friggin clown you are!

But I do agree with you ornot... he is one hell of a smart and feisty survivor.
And I also think it has been a mistake on our part cutting off Diplomatic relations ... it never worked and it hasnt amounted to much ....

Obviously you didn't read my thread.

I said that cubans are better off under Castro, than under Batista in terms of social welfare and education - but that, nonetheless, Castro presided over a repressive regime.

[OrnotBitwise]

What do you think a Watermelon is Top?
Is joke, comrade. Is green on outside, red on inside -- like moldy corpse of Lenin.

Just thought I'd save the free-market ideologues the effort. :tongout:

[OrnotBitwise]

Not only did cypress mention it in his posts but I did in my initial post to this thread. I have to admit, though, I was kind of hoping to scare up a "zero tolerance for repression" post. So much fun to shoot down, they are.

:D

If we truly have zero tolerance for repressive regimes then we may as well kill the entire human race off right now. Repression is not some absolute value where the gubmint either does it or they don't. That's just Bush-esque cowboy thinking. Repression is a relative thing: some governments are worse than others but it all depends which aspects you think are most important.

I stand by my initial thesis. Most Cubans are today better off, on balance, than most Cubans were under Batista. That balance includes the fact that their freedom of political expression is indeed severely repressed.

Whether they're better off than they would have been had Batista not been overthrown is purely speculative, though the fate of other island nations in the region is not encouraging.

And the South Florida exile community is made up of drug dealers, drunks, criminals and losers. Neener, neener, neener!

:p

[klaatu]

Obviously you didn't read my thread.

I said that cubans are better off under Castro, than under Batista in terms of social welfare and education - but that, nonetheless, Castro presided over a repressive regime.

Im not so sure about that .... at least with the Mob influence Cuba was a thriving Hot Spot under Batista ...sure he was an authoritarian crook ... but the Cubans took a wrong turn in the Revolution ....went from bad to bad.
Both are evil corrupt Dictators responsible for millions of deaths and destruction. Health Care and a second rate education does not replace freedom on any level.

[klaatu]

And the South Florida exile community is made up of drug dealers, drunks, criminals and losers. Neener, neener, neener!

:p


You can do better than this ....

[OrnotBitwise]

You can do better than this ....
Sure, but how much time would it take?

I think that making the generalization that the "Exile" community in Florida is primarily made up of heroic figures is every bit as ridiculous as asserting that they're mostly criminals and lunatics. Which, by the way, some Cubans believe.

Compare Cuba today with the Dominican Republic and Haiti and Trinidad. Cuba's doing pretty well, all things considered.

[Brent]

He certainly is no Che thats for sure.

Uh, yes.... Che was MUCH worse! But both are marxist scumbags, and Castro should have been taken out by the United States a long time ago.

[klaatu]

Sure, but how much time would it take?

I think that making the generalization that the "Exile" community in Florida is primarily made up of heroic figures is every bit as ridiculous as asserting that they're mostly criminals and lunatics. Which, by the way, some Cubans believe.

Compare Cuba today with the Dominican Republic and Haiti and Trinidad. Cuba's doing pretty well, all things considered.


Im not sure I said the Cuban "Exile" community in Florida is primarily made up of heroic figures .. lol
But...as a hole.., they are a hard working productive community .... but like every other community ... they have their dregs ....

To say that Cuba is doing well by comparing them to other oppresed Island Nations would be like saying people on welfare in New York are doing well compared to those on in welfare Texas, so New York must be a better run State than Texas.

[AnyOldIron]

Castro is a heroic villain. He stood up to US sponsored brutal fascism and won, instigated many programmes that result in Cuba having a great education and health system but under a 50 year sick seige by the US became dictatorial.

Che is more of a hero to me... A flawed hero, but all heroes are....

[AnyOldIron]

Im not sure I said the Cuban "Exile" community in Florida is primarily made up of heroic figures

//

Classic example of US sponsored terrorism comes from the Cuban exiles in Florida.....

Not America's finest hour....

[uscitizen]

Uh, yes.... Che was MUCH worse! But both are marxist scumbags, and Castro should have been taken out by the United States a long time ago.

tha sure is a fine Christian attitude. I think I have finally figured out who you really are. Marion Patrick Robertson :)

[Epicurus]

This thread deserves a bump, and a place in the Museum of JPP Idiocy.

Summary of this thread:

"Fidel Castro... great leader?

Or... the Greatest Leader?"

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Anyone else have a lingering -- or grudging -- respect for Fidel? I do, I freely admit. This is NOT to say that his government is especially enlightened or that he's really built a worker's paradise in Cuba. It isn't and he hasn't. I do grant him a couple of points though.

One is that his regime is better than the Batista government was, at least for the majority of Cubans. That's on balance, of course, not on every single criterion. Many of the charges levelled at Castro -- especially the valid ones, about freedom of expression and the like -- could be made with just as much justice against the former regime.

Another is that he's one hell of a smart and feisty survivor. He's managed to keep his runty little nation afloat in a sea of much larger and more powerful predators. And he's done it while remaining an irritant.

Out of communist dictators (not a prestigous field to be included in), Fidel is by far the best, and is the only one who isn't an egomaniacal freak. Maybe if the US wouldn't have treated his country like shit after they rebelled they wouldn't have been forced to side with the USSR. But his actiosn in overthrowing Batista were perfectly appropriate. The modern embargo on his people is wrong on so many levels.

[Damocles]

This thread deserves a bump, and a place in the Museum of JPP Idiocy.

Summary of this thread:

"Fidel Castro... great leader?

Or... the Greatest Leader?"
I guess I better add that :1up: thing soon....

[Cancel 2016.2]

I guess I better add that :1up: thing soon....

just break that out next time two posters get a bit heated. how can you not laugh at that?

[Socrtease]

Literacy in Cuba is just under 100% Much better schools under Castro than Batista. Kids get innoculated against diseases at 100% in Cuba. The Cuban exile community is mad cause they backed the wrong dictatorial horse. Batista was selling out his country for his own personal wealth at a staggering rate. Tourism dollars were coming in the front door in Cuba, got loaded up into bags and out the same door to NYC and Florida to the five families and jewish mobsters

[blackascoal]

Castro is a hero to the Cuban people .. no question about that truth.

[Damocles]

Yeah, I always take off my car door and set off into the open ocean to get away from my heroes!

(For the edification of Onceler and BAC, this is sarcasm.)

[Epicurus]

Castro is a hero to the Cuban people .. no question about that truth.

lololololol.

This kind of trolling does not even warrant a valid response but I am giving one.

I disagree with your statement, and even if it were true then those same Cuban people would be Murderers-by-Proxy and therefore totally undeserving of any respect or decency.

[blackascoal]

lololololol.

This kind of trolling does not even warrant a valid response but I am giving one.

I disagree with your statement, and even if it were true then those same Cuban people would be Murderers-by-Proxy and therefore totally undeserving of any respect or decency.

You've demonstrated a failed understanding of Cuba or its history .. and one that hardly warrants a response .. but I like you, so I'm giving you one.

Catsro is popular among the Cuban people as Chavez is popular among his people. Should you and other Americans decide heros for Cubans or Venezuelans?

What murders are the Cuban people guilty of?

You're an American and we just mass-murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people FOR PROFIT.

Are you a murderer or just a pirate?

I guess Batista was a democrat.

[Cancel 2016.2]

Yeah, the sign of popularity is the number of people willing to chance drowning to escape a tyranical government.

[Socrtease]

Yeah, I always take off my car door and set off into the open ocean to get away from my heroes!

(For the edification of Onceler and BAC, this is sarcasm.)Really Really Really Funny sarcasm. I almost choked on my own spit when i read it you fucker.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I wanna give Fidel a blowjob.

[Socrtease]

I wanna give Fidel a blowjob.Eww. and Eww. That is just a HORRIBLE picture in my head and I don't even know what you look like. But imagining you felate that scrawny bony skin hanging old man requires that I now go outside and kill a pig with my bare hands and wallow in its intrals to get that image out of my head.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Eww. and Eww. That is just a HORRIBLE picture in my head and I don't even know what you look like. But imagining you felate that scrawny bony skin hanging old man requires that I now go outside and kill a pig with my bare hands and wallow in its intrals to get that image out of my head.

I'm sorry, I don't experience disgust, so I have no meter with wich to judge the offensiveness of my posts by.

[Minister of Truth]

I'm sorry, I don't experience disgust, so I have no meter with wich to judge the offensiveness of my posts by.

Why do you hate America?

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Why do you hate America?

Because you touch yourself at night.

[Minister of Truth]

Because you touch yourself at night.

So what if I do? It helps me to have pleasant dreams!

[Mott the Hoople]

Anyone else have a lingering -- or grudging -- respect for Fidel? I do, I freely admit. This is NOT to say that his government is especially enlightened or that he's really built a worker's paradise in Cuba. It isn't and he hasn't. I do grant him a couple of points though.

One is that his regime is better than the Batista government was, at least for the majority of Cubans. That's on balance, of course, not on every single criterion. Many of the charges levelled at Castro -- especially the valid ones, about freedom of expression and the like -- could be made with just as much justice against the former regime.

Another is that he's one hell of a smart and feisty survivor. He's managed to keep his runty little nation afloat in a sea of much larger and more powerful predators. And he's done it while remaining an irritant.


Not to mention that he's been a big thorn in the side to one of our nations worst foreign policies (The Monroe Doctrine) and has been an icon and hero in latin america for the manner in which he has thumbed his nose to the great gringo power to the north.

Castro's government will die for the same reasons Batistas did. It's essentially corrupt and not economically viable over the long run, though I do agree on the balance Castro has been better ten Batista......that aint exactly saying a hell of a lot.

It will be interesting when Fidel dies and the Cuban government begins to reform, how the expats in Miami will react.

I'm reasonably sure that Cuba could reform it's government into a liberal constitutional democracy with a free market economy and the rule of law and the Cuban expat lobby in southern Florida will still keep the US embargo in place.

[SouthernBelle82]

He's not Mao, Stalin or Hitler.

He's not the boogie man that he was made out to be.

He certainly severly limited political freedom and was repressive to regime opponents. But, the numbers don't lie: cubans, on balance, are better off than under the Batista regime - at least in terms of social services and education.

One does hope that after Fidel, they will evolve more political freedom, though.

Yup I tend to agree except for your last point. Just because they do things differently doesn't mean it's wrong. That's the holier than thou "we're number one and we're always right" line of thinking which isn't true. Cuba still has elections but they do things differently than here. Go to the cpusa.org website and listen to what they say about Fidel and one person even spent some time in Cuba.

[SouthernBelle82]

Im not so sure about that .... at least with the Mob influence Cuba was a thriving Hot Spot under Batista ...sure he was an authoritarian crook ... but the Cubans took a wrong turn in the Revolution ....went from bad to bad.
Both are evil corrupt Dictators responsible for millions of deaths and destruction. Health Care and a second rate education does not replace freedom on any level.

Depends on your definition of "bad."

[SouthernBelle82]

Uh, yes.... Che was MUCH worse! But both are marxist scumbags, and Castro should have been taken out by the United States a long time ago.

Yeah because the U.S. is always correct and number one. Why is it that every other country in the world allows trade and tourism with Cuba? Why is it only the United States wants to get rid of Castro? :rolleyes: I find that pretty damn interesting. I also find it pretty freaking hypocritical too to go around and talk about "freedom" and "democracy" and when a country chooses a direction you don't like you pound your chest and say "Do it my way or no way at all" and call that freedom. What a joke! Oh and yeah the United States is doing pretty well off right? Oh wait...

[SouthernBelle82]

Castro is a heroic villain. He stood up to US sponsored brutal fascism and won, instigated many programmes that result in Cuba having a great education and health system but under a 50 year sick seige by the US became dictatorial.

Che is more of a hero to me... A flawed hero, but all heroes are....

If Castro was as bad as everyone says why didn't the Cuban people revolt against him? One thing I've learned from being involved in leftist politics is latino/hispanic people don't take crap and oppression from governments for long.
If Castro was as bad as everyone says the people would've gotten rid of him sooner or later and the fact he's lasted forty-nine years I think says a lot. Of course I could be wrong but that's just from my personal experiences.

[SouthernBelle82]

Im not sure I said the Cuban "Exile" community in Florida is primarily made up of heroic figures

//

Classic example of US sponsored terrorism comes from the Cuban exiles in Florida.....

Not America's finest hour....

Oh and speaking of which Cuba is the only country that I can think of that allows automatic citizenship if you're from Cuba and you touch American soil. What was that from all the rightwingers about amnesty? :rolleyes:

[SouthernBelle82]

Not to mention that he's been a big thorn in the side to one of our nations worst foreign policies (The Monroe Doctrine) and has been an icon and hero in latin america for the manner in which he has thumbed his nose to the great gringo power to the north.

Castro's government will die for the same reasons Batistas did. It's essentially corrupt and not economically viable over the long run, though I do agree on the balance Castro has been better ten Batista......that aint exactly saying a hell of a lot.

It will be interesting when Fidel dies and the Cuban government begins to reform, how the expats in Miami will react.

I'm reasonably sure that Cuba could reform it's government into a liberal constitutional democracy with a free market economy and the rule of law and the Cuban expat lobby in southern Florida will still keep the US embargo in place.

Yeah it's so corrupt it's lasted for forty-nine years and he's out lived nine U.S. president's and countless death threat attempts from the U.S. :rolleyes:

Free market? You're kidding right? Nah. Fair trade perhaps. And sorry but I don't see the Cuban people changing their policy's. There might be one or two changes but not anytime soon. However Obama back in August of 2007 talked about how if he's elected president he will lift the Cuban trade/tourism ban which is a good sign. However he also wants to bring capitalism to Cuba which he's in for a rude awakening for I think. However it's a step in the right direction with having a relationship with the people of Cuba. And hey if they do choose a liberal society then so be it.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Yeah it's so corrupt it's lasted for forty-nine years and he's out lived nine U.S. president's and countless death threat attempts from the U.S. :rolleyes:

Free market? You're kidding right? Nah. Fair trade perhaps. And sorry but I don't see the Cuban people changing their policy's. There might be one or two changes but not anytime soon. However Obama back in August of 2007 talked about how if he's elected president he will lift the Cuban trade/tourism ban which is a good sign. However he also wants to bring capitalism to Cuba which he's in for a rude awakening for I think. However it's a step in the right direction with having a relationship with the people of Cuba. And hey if they do choose a liberal society then so be it.

Hey, if the people of Germany CHOOSE a fascist society, bend over Joos...

[Cancel5]

Anyone else have a lingering -- or grudging -- respect for Fidel? I do, I freely admit. This is NOT to say that his government is especially enlightened or that he's really built a worker's paradise in Cuba. It isn't and he hasn't. I do grant him a couple of points though.

One is that his regime is better than the Batista government was, at least for the majority of Cubans. That's on balance, of course, not on every single criterion. Many of the charges levelled at Castro -- especially the valid ones, about freedom of expression and the like -- could be made with just as much justice against the former regime.

Another is that he's one hell of a smart and feisty survivor. He's managed to keep his runty little nation afloat in a sea of much larger and more powerful predators. And he's done it while remaining an irritant.


I agree and I think the embargo and travel restrictions to Cuba are so foolish.
If you want to turn a nation into a democracy or whatever government you feel best with, all you have to do is allow tourism.

I have always felt that we have picked on that tiny nation for far too long, besides, I would really like to cruise there!

[Cancel5]

:whip:


Oh, baby! I like that one...

[Cancel5]

I have no repsect for Castro. He betrayed the ideals he fought for. He certainly is no Che thats for sure.

Yes he is much better than Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. But a dictator who uses repression to control his people and stifle their human rights doesn't get much respect from me.

But then what should I expect from a watermelon? :)


A watermelon? Oh, if they are ripe, they so juicy and sweet! That is what you can expect from a watermelon!:tongout:

[Cancel5]

Uh, yes.... Che was MUCH worse! But both are marxist scumbags, and Castro should have been taken out by the United States a long time ago.

A SuperPatriot! There is one in every bunch!

[Damocles]

Hey, if the people of Germany CHOOSE a fascist society, bend over Joos...
Or if they do it in America maybe citizens of Japanese descent might have something to think about...

[Damocles]

A SuperPatriot! There is one in every bunch!
Now there's a name I haven't seen in a while.

[SouthernBelle82]

Hey, if the people of Germany CHOOSE a fascist society, bend over Joos...

Please keep the shit to yourself. Don't be an insulting asshole.

[SouthernBelle82]

I agree and I think the embargo and travel restrictions to Cuba are so foolish.
If you want to turn a nation into a democracy or whatever government you feel best with, all you have to do is allow tourism.

I have always felt that we have picked on that tiny nation for far too long, besides, I would really like to cruise there!

Plus it could get their government to ease up on some silly laws like how only foreigners can go to the best beaches. While I understand where they come from I just think it's kinda silly and too much of patriarchy. Plus from people who have been there I've heard it's not a too bad place and the people are very friendly.

[SouthernBelle82]

Or if they do it in America maybe citizens of Japanese descent might have something to think about...

Shh don't bring that up.

[Epicurus]

Please keep the shit to yourself. Don't be an insulting asshole.

Do you see his point?

A tyranny of the majority can lead to epic problems.