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FUCK THE POLICE
02-10-2010, 05:52 PM
Let's just sprinkle some free market fairy dust on this and it'll all go away!

http://w3.newsmax.com/a/feb10/scientific/

What's Happened to America's Scientific Greatness?

A leading futurist says the country's security is at risk because we are training — and keeping — fewer scientists.
The Chinese, on the other hand, are rich in high-level talent.

By Marvin J. Cetron with David A. Patten
It was the computer programmer's equivalent of the World Series, the Olympics, and the Super Bowl all packed into one event.
The final score at the conclusion of the TopCoder Open in Las Vegas: “crazybOy” one, United States of America zero.

“CrazybOy” — the “handle” of programmer Bin Jin, a remarkable 18-year-old high school student from Shanghai — bested 4,200 other competitors (many of them code-writing pros with masters degrees and Ph.D.s) to win TopCoder's annual algorithm contest. He and others delivered a
Sputnik-style beat-down to the United States in the process.

Of the 70 finalists, 20 were Chinese. Ten were Russian. Six were Indonesian. Six more came from Ukraine. Four of the finalists were Canadian. Poland (population 38 million), the Philippines (92 million), and Argentina (40 million) placed three programmers apiece in the finals. The number of U.S. finalists: two. The number of U.S. champions in the nine events: none.

Experts say it's further proof that science and math illiteracy are endangering U.S. global competitiveness, and could even threaten U.S. national security. After all, it's no accident the
contest was sponsored by the super-secret National Security Agency (NSA) — the cryptographic “puzzle palace” in Fort Meade, Md.

Marvin J. Cetron is founder of Forecasting International and one of the world's leading forecaster-futurists. He served as White House adviser and consulted for more than 400 of the Fortune 500 firms, 150 professional and academic organizations, and 100 government agencies, including the CIA
and NSA.

Increasingly, science and national security are one. Officers in trailers at U.S. air bases pilot unmanned drones to seek and destroy terrorists in Afghanistan. (In fact, Creech Air Force Base,
only 35 miles northwest of the Las Vegas resort where the TopCoder Open was held, conducts such missions daily.)

The bottom line: Lamentations about the state of U.S. science are more than fodder for PTA meetings.

“The scientific and technical building blocks of our economic leadership are eroding at a time when many other nations are gathering strength,” the National Academy of Sciences recently reported. “Although many people assume that the United States will always be a world leader in science and technology, this may not continue to be the case inasmuch as great minds and ideas exist throughout the world. We fear the abruptness with which a lead in science and technology can be lost — and the difficulty of recovering a lead once lost, if indeed it can be regained at all.”
As the global scramble for the technological high ground heats up, those lads vying for a trophy
in Las Vegas may soon find themselves locked in a far more serious competition — a binary battle of ones and zeros as geeks gaze at computer screens and determine who wins future battles.

It is a competition the United States appears increasingly ill-equipped to win.
In 2008, hackers launched more than 70,000 cyberattacks on American computer networks. Many were launched by foreign governments using sophisticated code written by top-flight programmers. America's own army of techno-geeks is all that protects the nation's most sensitive secrets.

In that light, concern that America has failed to keep pace with the burgeoning scientific infrastructures of other nations seems appropriate. “Without workers equipped with the science, technology, engineering, and math skills to succeed in the 21st century,” Chamber of Commerce President Thomas Donahue has warned, “the United States will lose the global race for talent and its position as the economic leader of the world.”

So What's Wrong With the U.S.?

America's technology infrastructure has both a quantity problem and a quality problem.
The quantity problem is simply a matter of numbers. The numbers don't lie . . . and they don't look pretty, either. There are about 488,000 scientists and 1.5 million engineers in the United States, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Add 267,000 technicians, and about 2.7 million computer scientists, programmers, engineers, teachers, and related professionals, and the U.S. technology infrastructure numbers about 5 million people.

About half of these critical professionals, however, are nearing retirement age. Each day, the Sputnik-era science surge and the glory days of NASA fade further into the past.
The tale of the tape does not augur well for America: The Department of Labor estimates that the nation requires 114,000 new engineering graduates each year. However, it graduates only about 70,000 according to most reports.
A Superpower in Decline?
In Europe, 12 percent of all graduates major in engineering. In China, a nation of 1.35 billion people, that same number is 40 percent.

In the United States, just 6 percent of undergraduates are engineering majors. So when it comes
to scientific brainpower, America is increasingly outgunned.

Indeed, the brightest 20 percent of Chinese students outnumber all of the young people currently living in the United States. In India, it's a similar picture. And as these nations develop, much more
of their school-age population will receive an education.

That is why, according to former Purdue University President Martin Jischke, fully 90 percent
of all scientists and engineers will soon reside in Asia.

On a purely numerical basis, therefore, the United States would have to provide a very high level of science and mathematics education in order to offset the numerical advantage of larger countries.

Studies indicate the performance of American students in science and math, however, is clearly inferior. In 2006, for example, the Programme for International Student Assessment tested 15-year-olds around the world in science, math, and reading.

Students from 57 countries participated in the testing. U.S. students placed 29th in science proficiency, behind Latvia, Croatia, Slovenia, Liechtenstein, and Estonia, to name a few. Even in reading literacy, American youngsters didn't fare so well, ranking 18th. Increasingly, studies on the global competitiveness of America's up-and-coming scientists are report cards you don't want to open.

A decade ago, the United States was able to augment its scientific cadre with immigrant-scientists drawn to the United States.

They studied at top U.S. colleges, took jobs with U.S. firms, and would often go on to become naturalized citizens. Indeed, more than one-third of Nobels awarded for research performed in the United States have gone to immigrants.

It was common just a few decades ago to hear European intellectuals bemoaning the “brain drain” to the United States. Today, the global intellectual tide appears to be reversing. Increasingly, the world's greatest scientific minds are casting an envious eye at opportunities beyond U.S. shores.

There are several reasons for this decline:

• In 1987, Congress and President Clinton killed the Superconducting Super Collider project. The Super Collider was expected to be the world's largest atom smasher, and the decision to end the project signaled a reluctance to pay for major science projects.

The collider would have attracted thousands of scientists from abroad. Now, they're lining up to work at the Large Hadron Collider near Geneva, Switzerland instead.

• Military research is consuming an increasing portion of the R&D pie. DARPA, the storied research agency that developed the Saturn V moon rocket, UAV drones, and the Internet, now focuses increasingly on mundane, albeit vital, war-fighting tasks such as making Bradley
Fighting Vehicles resistant to roadside IED bombs.

• Funding is harder to come by. U.S. spending on research and development, when measured as a percentage of GDP, has been shrinking for the past 15 years. President Barack Obama has promised to renew America's commitment to scientific innovation, and the $787 billion stimulus included substantial funds toward that end.

• Post 9/11, student visas are much more difficult to obtain. Once students arrive,
they encounter greater scrutiny and regulation.

• This year, only a little more than half of such students say they want to remain
in America. In past decades, more than 90 percent of Chinese nationals who earned Ph.D.s at U.S. schools planned to remain in the United States for at least five years.

AnnaLee Saxenian, dean of the University of California, Berkeley School of Information, blames the economy. “Foreign students have a sense that the United States is closing down as a land of opportunity,” she says.

That's important considering that nearly a third of U.S. science degrees, and 60 percent of U.S. engineering degrees, are awarded to foreign nationals. One ominous indicator, Saxenian says: A majority of foreign s
tudents now believe innovation over the next 25 years will occur faster in China and India than in the United States.

Dr. Vivek Wadhwa, a Duke University professor and Harvard Law School researcher, who along with Saxenian has carefully studied the American “science gap,” says the recession is postponing recognition of a serious shortage.

“We're in a recession, and there is enough good talent now,” Wadhwa says, adding, “But long term, it will hurt like you won't believe.”
Failure Is Not Tolerable

The good news: Experts say it's not too late to reverse the decline of America's intellectual infrastructure. After all, of the nine 2009 Nobel laureates in medicine, chemistry, and physics, three were scientists born and educated in the United States. Two other laureates were born overseas, and came to the United States.

Maintaining America's technological edge in a hostile world requires a willingness to invest the resources needed to nurture new fields of scientific endeavor.

This much is certain: Failure is not an option. Ignoring the need to rebuild America's scientific infrastructure, experts warn, could carry an enormous price tag.

“Losing critical talent means arming the U.S.' competition,” says Wadhwa. “The next Google, Microsoft, or Apple could be launched in Shanghai or Bangalore.”
The Way Forward:
Let's Get Serious About Science

America stands unrivaled for scientific achievement, but its advantage is evaporating fast. If we
hope to bolster our economy and security, fixing the problem won't come cheaply. A few suggestions:
• First and foremost, we must get serious about overhauling our educational system. Schools have to graduate students who are fully able to succeed in an increasingly competitive, high-tech world.

• Studies show today's students learn better online than in the classroom. So let them attend lectures over the Net and gather only for lab work, social interaction, and other such functions. This would cut school costs and improve learning.

• Train teachers to effectively use computers and other high-tech aids. Kyle Peck, associate dean for outreach, technology, and international programs at Penn State, often uses a favorite quotation: “Technologies will not replace teachers, but teachers who use technologies well will replace those who don't.”

• Provide advanced K-12 programs. Such programs should include science and math for gifted students who can make the most use of them.

• Make sure teachers understand their own subjects. It is not enough to have passed teacher's school classes in pedagogy. No one can effectively teach math or science unless they can at least pass their course's final exam.

• Mandate merit pay to reward teachers whose students show the greatest progress. Toledo and a few other districts have proved that it can be done fairly and successfully.

• Help teachers improve. Assign the best to mentor those whose performance is not quite so stellar, and pay them for the extra duty.

• Emulate North Carolina's Project Bright IDEA, chaired by veteran educator Margaret Gayle.
Test scores, the identification of gifted students, and student and teacher motivation all have soared
since the program began nine years ago.

• Retrain teachers to build extremely rigorous curricula from scratch. Retraining should include using business life skills, collaborative problem-solving exercises, and conceptual analysis.

• Revise immigration policies. Students seeking to matriculate in America — especially those pursuing careers in math and science — deserve a warm welcome. — M.C., D.P.

Cancel 2018. 3
02-10-2010, 08:26 PM
honestly, this thread makes no sense :(

PostmodernProphet
02-10-2010, 08:37 PM
American's falling behind in science. I blame conservatives

maybe you ought to be blaming Hollywood....according to statistics there were only 61k bachelor degrees in biological science, but there were 77k in the visual and performing arts......there were only 11k in philosophical and religious studies......

it appears that the young are distracted from the sciences by film-making, not religion.....

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/786785.html

Minister of Truth
02-10-2010, 08:59 PM
I blame Watermark.

FYI, Waterdork, Clinton was not president in 1987...

Canceled1
02-10-2010, 10:14 PM
Let's just sprinkle some free market fairy dust on this and it'll all go away!

http://w3.newsmax.com/a/feb10/scientific/

What's Happened to America's Scientific Greatness?

A leading futurist says the country's security is at risk because we are training — and keeping — fewer scientists.
The Chinese, on the other hand, are rich in high-level talent.

By Marvin J. Cetron with David A. Patten
It was the computer programmer's equivalent of the World Series, the Olympics, and the Super Bowl all packed into one event.
The final score at the conclusion of the TopCoder Open in Las Vegas: “crazybOy” one, United States of America zero.

“CrazybOy” — the “handle” of programmer Bin Jin, a remarkable 18-year-old high school student from Shanghai — bested 4,200 other competitors (many of them code-writing pros with masters degrees and Ph.D.s) to win TopCoder's annual algorithm contest. He and others delivered a
Sputnik-style beat-down to the United States in the process.

Of the 70 finalists, 20 were Chinese. Ten were Russian. Six were Indonesian. Six more came from Ukraine. Four of the finalists were Canadian. Poland (population 38 million), the Philippines (92 million), and Argentina (40 million) placed three programmers apiece in the finals. The number of U.S. finalists: two. The number of U.S. champions in the nine events: none.

Experts say it's further proof that science and math illiteracy are endangering U.S. global competitiveness, and could even threaten U.S. national security. After all, it's no accident the
contest was sponsored by the super-secret National Security Agency (NSA) — the cryptographic “puzzle palace” in Fort Meade, Md.

Marvin J. Cetron is founder of Forecasting International and one of the world's leading forecaster-futurists. He served as White House adviser and consulted for more than 400 of the Fortune 500 firms, 150 professional and academic organizations, and 100 government agencies, including the CIA
and NSA.

Increasingly, science and national security are one. Officers in trailers at U.S. air bases pilot unmanned drones to seek and destroy terrorists in Afghanistan. (In fact, Creech Air Force Base,
only 35 miles northwest of the Las Vegas resort where the TopCoder Open was held, conducts such missions daily.)

The bottom line: Lamentations about the state of U.S. science are more than fodder for PTA meetings.

“The scientific and technical building blocks of our economic leadership are eroding at a time when many other nations are gathering strength,” the National Academy of Sciences recently reported. “Although many people assume that the United States will always be a world leader in science and technology, this may not continue to be the case inasmuch as great minds and ideas exist throughout the world. We fear the abruptness with which a lead in science and technology can be lost — and the difficulty of recovering a lead once lost, if indeed it can be regained at all.”
As the global scramble for the technological high ground heats up, those lads vying for a trophy
in Las Vegas may soon find themselves locked in a far more serious competition — a binary battle of ones and zeros as geeks gaze at computer screens and determine who wins future battles.

It is a competition the United States appears increasingly ill-equipped to win.
In 2008, hackers launched more than 70,000 cyberattacks on American computer networks. Many were launched by foreign governments using sophisticated code written by top-flight programmers. America's own army of techno-geeks is all that protects the nation's most sensitive secrets.

In that light, concern that America has failed to keep pace with the burgeoning scientific infrastructures of other nations seems appropriate. “Without workers equipped with the science, technology, engineering, and math skills to succeed in the 21st century,” Chamber of Commerce President Thomas Donahue has warned, “the United States will lose the global race for talent and its position as the economic leader of the world.”

So What's Wrong With the U.S.?

America's technology infrastructure has both a quantity problem and a quality problem.
The quantity problem is simply a matter of numbers. The numbers don't lie . . . and they don't look pretty, either. There are about 488,000 scientists and 1.5 million engineers in the United States, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Add 267,000 technicians, and about 2.7 million computer scientists, programmers, engineers, teachers, and related professionals, and the U.S. technology infrastructure numbers about 5 million people.

About half of these critical professionals, however, are nearing retirement age. Each day, the Sputnik-era science surge and the glory days of NASA fade further into the past.
The tale of the tape does not augur well for America: The Department of Labor estimates that the nation requires 114,000 new engineering graduates each year. However, it graduates only about 70,000 according to most reports.
A Superpower in Decline?
In Europe, 12 percent of all graduates major in engineering. In China, a nation of 1.35 billion people, that same number is 40 percent.

In the United States, just 6 percent of undergraduates are engineering majors. So when it comes
to scientific brainpower, America is increasingly outgunned.

Indeed, the brightest 20 percent of Chinese students outnumber all of the young people currently living in the United States. In India, it's a similar picture. And as these nations develop, much more
of their school-age population will receive an education.

That is why, according to former Purdue University President Martin Jischke, fully 90 percent
of all scientists and engineers will soon reside in Asia.

On a purely numerical basis, therefore, the United States would have to provide a very high level of science and mathematics education in order to offset the numerical advantage of larger countries.

Studies indicate the performance of American students in science and math, however, is clearly inferior. In 2006, for example, the Programme for International Student Assessment tested 15-year-olds around the world in science, math, and reading.

Students from 57 countries participated in the testing. U.S. students placed 29th in science proficiency, behind Latvia, Croatia, Slovenia, Liechtenstein, and Estonia, to name a few. Even in reading literacy, American youngsters didn't fare so well, ranking 18th. Increasingly, studies on the global competitiveness of America's up-and-coming scientists are report cards you don't want to open.

A decade ago, the United States was able to augment its scientific cadre with immigrant-scientists drawn to the United States.

They studied at top U.S. colleges, took jobs with U.S. firms, and would often go on to become naturalized citizens. Indeed, more than one-third of Nobels awarded for research performed in the United States have gone to immigrants.

It was common just a few decades ago to hear European intellectuals bemoaning the “brain drain” to the United States. Today, the global intellectual tide appears to be reversing. Increasingly, the world's greatest scientific minds are casting an envious eye at opportunities beyond U.S. shores.

There are several reasons for this decline:

• In 1987, Congress and President Clinton killed the Superconducting Super Collider project. The Super Collider was expected to be the world's largest atom smasher, and the decision to end the project signaled a reluctance to pay for major science projects.

The collider would have attracted thousands of scientists from abroad. Now, they're lining up to work at the Large Hadron Collider near Geneva, Switzerland instead.

• Military research is consuming an increasing portion of the R&D pie. DARPA, the storied research agency that developed the Saturn V moon rocket, UAV drones, and the Internet, now focuses increasingly on mundane, albeit vital, war-fighting tasks such as making Bradley
Fighting Vehicles resistant to roadside IED bombs.

• Funding is harder to come by. U.S. spending on research and development, when measured as a percentage of GDP, has been shrinking for the past 15 years. President Barack Obama has promised to renew America's commitment to scientific innovation, and the $787 billion stimulus included substantial funds toward that end.

• Post 9/11, student visas are much more difficult to obtain. Once students arrive,
they encounter greater scrutiny and regulation.

• This year, only a little more than half of such students say they want to remain
in America. In past decades, more than 90 percent of Chinese nationals who earned Ph.D.s at U.S. schools planned to remain in the United States for at least five years.

AnnaLee Saxenian, dean of the University of California, Berkeley School of Information, blames the economy. “Foreign students have a sense that the United States is closing down as a land of opportunity,” she says.

That's important considering that nearly a third of U.S. science degrees, and 60 percent of U.S. engineering degrees, are awarded to foreign nationals. One ominous indicator, Saxenian says: A majority of foreign s
tudents now believe innovation over the next 25 years will occur faster in China and India than in the United States.

Dr. Vivek Wadhwa, a Duke University professor and Harvard Law School researcher, who along with Saxenian has carefully studied the American “science gap,” says the recession is postponing recognition of a serious shortage.

“We're in a recession, and there is enough good talent now,” Wadhwa says, adding, “But long term, it will hurt like you won't believe.”
Failure Is Not Tolerable

The good news: Experts say it's not too late to reverse the decline of America's intellectual infrastructure. After all, of the nine 2009 Nobel laureates in medicine, chemistry, and physics, three were scientists born and educated in the United States. Two other laureates were born overseas, and came to the United States.

Maintaining America's technological edge in a hostile world requires a willingness to invest the resources needed to nurture new fields of scientific endeavor.

This much is certain: Failure is not an option. Ignoring the need to rebuild America's scientific infrastructure, experts warn, could carry an enormous price tag.

“Losing critical talent means arming the U.S.' competition,” says Wadhwa. “The next Google, Microsoft, or Apple could be launched in Shanghai or Bangalore.”
The Way Forward:
Let's Get Serious About Science

America stands unrivaled for scientific achievement, but its advantage is evaporating fast. If we
hope to bolster our economy and security, fixing the problem won't come cheaply. A few suggestions:
• First and foremost, we must get serious about overhauling our educational system. Schools have to graduate students who are fully able to succeed in an increasingly competitive, high-tech world.

• Studies show today's students learn better online than in the classroom. So let them attend lectures over the Net and gather only for lab work, social interaction, and other such functions. This would cut school costs and improve learning.

• Train teachers to effectively use computers and other high-tech aids. Kyle Peck, associate dean for outreach, technology, and international programs at Penn State, often uses a favorite quotation: “Technologies will not replace teachers, but teachers who use technologies well will replace those who don't.”

• Provide advanced K-12 programs. Such programs should include science and math for gifted students who can make the most use of them.

• Make sure teachers understand their own subjects. It is not enough to have passed teacher's school classes in pedagogy. No one can effectively teach math or science unless they can at least pass their course's final exam.

• Mandate merit pay to reward teachers whose students show the greatest progress. Toledo and a few other districts have proved that it can be done fairly and successfully.

• Help teachers improve. Assign the best to mentor those whose performance is not quite so stellar, and pay them for the extra duty.

• Emulate North Carolina's Project Bright IDEA, chaired by veteran educator Margaret Gayle.
Test scores, the identification of gifted students, and student and teacher motivation all have soared
since the program began nine years ago.

• Retrain teachers to build extremely rigorous curricula from scratch. Retraining should include using business life skills, collaborative problem-solving exercises, and conceptual analysis.

• Revise immigration policies. Students seeking to matriculate in America — especially those pursuing careers in math and science — deserve a warm welcome. — M.C., D.P.







By all means. Move to China!

Hermes Thoth
02-11-2010, 09:41 AM
This is what happens when you let corporations put all people in your country out of work, based on globalization idiocy.

Why would someone become a programmer only to be let go at the age of thirty for daring to have self respect?

Damocles
02-11-2010, 10:27 AM
American's falling behind in science. I blame conservatives

I blame liberals. For decades we have given "more money" consistently to the schools for negative return. Many states (like Colorado) have passed, at the urging of the teachers' union, constitutional amendments that force a certain rate of increase regardless of financial situation or any return on the investment. We spend more per capita and get less for our investment than ever before.

Hermes Thoth
02-11-2010, 10:29 AM
I blame liberals. For decades we have given "more money" consistently to the schools for negative return.

Blame the neocons like yourself too for removing all incentive to go into the field by blatantly preferring foreigners.

Damocles
02-11-2010, 10:33 AM
Blame the neocons like yourself too for removing all incentive to go into the field by blatantly preferring foreigners.
Were I a "neo-con" I'd blame myself. I am not. Neo-cons are liberals in republican clothing.

Hermes Thoth
02-11-2010, 10:36 AM
Were I a "neo-con" I'd blame myself. I am not. Neo-cons are liberals in republican clothing.

You are a neocon.

Damocles
02-11-2010, 11:14 AM
You are a neocon.
Dream on. This is like the political version of saying, "You're ugly"... in answer to somebody proving you wrong. It's just another version of saying people who you disagree with are "racists"...

ZappasGuitar
02-11-2010, 12:14 PM
maybe you ought to be blaming Hollywood....according to statistics there were only 61k bachelor degrees in biological science, but there were 77k in the visual and performing arts......there were only 11k in philosophical and religious studies......

it appears that the young are distracted from the sciences by film-making, not religion.....

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/786785.html


You forgot this little bit of info:

Business degrees are far and away the most popular
major, accounting for 307,149 of the almost 1.4 million bachelor's
degrees awarded -- 22% of the total.

It appears the young are distracted from the sciences by being raised in a society that prizes love of monetary wealth above all else.

Topspin
02-11-2010, 12:25 PM
If waterstain had a freaking clue he be blaming liberals.

who's going into science and business vs who's going into LIBERAL arts?

Cypress
02-11-2010, 12:35 PM
I blame liberals. For decades we have given "more money" consistently to the schools for negative return. ...... We spend more per capita and get less for our investment than ever before.


What are you talking about? Our publicly-funded, taxpayer-funded universities are the best in the world, and these chinese and european goons flock to our public universities by the hundreds of thousands to get engineering and science degrees.

Our well-funded high schools, located in affluent and mostly white communities are on a par with anything in england or china.

The very internet your typing your get-government-out-of-the-way screeds on came out of taxpayer funded research and project in government labs, public universities, and public researchers.


Getting rid of unions, getting rid of public education, and privitizing the education system is just something you read about on the CATO and Drudge websites. There's not a scintilla or shred of evidence in the real world that public education doesn't work. Can you name one single solitary country on the planet that privitized its schools, got rid of unions, and has a first rate educational system?

No?

Damocles
02-11-2010, 12:38 PM
What are you talking about? Our publicly-funded, taxpayer-funded universities are the best in the world, and these chinese and european goons flock to our public universities by the hundreds of thousands to get engineering and science degrees.

Our well-funded high schools, located in affluent and mostly white communities are on a par with anything in england or china.

The very internet your typing your get-government-out-of-the-way screeds on came out of taxpayer funded research and project in government labs, public universities, and public researchers.


Getting rid of unions, getting rid of public education, and privitizing the education system is just something you read about on the CATO and Drudge websites. There's not a scintilla or shred of evidence in the real world that public education doesn't work. Can you name one single solitary country on the planet that privitized its schools, got rid of unions, and has a first rate educational system?

No?
What are you talking about? Where did I say we should get rid of public education? An obvious poorly disguised strawman argument, or a total and immediate collapse of reading comprehension.

I simply stated that we need to expect a return on our investment, one in real terms based on what our children learn.

We've done what they asked of us, and they have failed to deliver, instead of looking to find a solution they simply start into how they don't have enough money and people are still buying it. We need to fix the education system, not add more money and think it will be "fixed". What we are currently doing isn't working.

Hermes Thoth
02-11-2010, 01:14 PM
Dream on. This is like the political version of saying, "You're ugly"... in answer to somebody proving you wrong. It's just another version of saying people who you disagree with are "racists"...

I pinched myself. Your eyes are wide shut.

Neocons are a perversion of free market conservatism as it's used as a tool of destruction to bifurcate society into the haves and have nots through abusing the abstractions of nationhood. And you argued with me for days about how there is simply no way to stop trading with china, until you realized my every post made me look better and you look worse.

Oh yes, mason, you're a neocon too.

Damocles
02-11-2010, 01:21 PM
I pinched myself. Your eyes are wide shut.

Neocons are a perversion of free market conservatism as it's used as a tool of destruction to bifurcate society into the haves and have nots through abusing the abstractions of nationhood. And you argued with me for days about how there is simply no way to stop trading with china, until you realized my every post made me look better and you look worse.

Oh yes, mason, you're a neocon too.
:rolleyes:

You live in a form of fantasy that has little bearing on reality. I argued that you weren't going to convince enough people that it would be good, not that I didn't agree with you.

I simply point out that even though you and I may think it isn't good to continue trading with them that the reality is that there isn't enough support for that position among any political group to get that done. At this point you have to work within that reality towards a goal a step at a time rather than thinking that posting about it here is going to change it at all. I argued that you spend energy fruitlessly attempting to convince people of something that you will be unsuccessful at.

You consistently fixate on the unimportant aspects to the detriment of what has actual import. If there are a group of Freemasons that control things and want you to worship Jews who think poisoning ourselves with crappy slave-created cheap things is great I am not part of them.

Hermes Thoth
02-11-2010, 01:39 PM
:rolleyes:

You live in a form of fantasy that has little bearing on reality. I argued that you weren't going to convince enough people that it would be good, not that I didn't agree with you.

I simply point out that even though you and I may think it isn't good to continue trading with them that the reality is that there isn't enough support for that position among any political group to get that done. At this point you have to work within that reality towards a goal a step at a time rather than thinking that posting about it here is going to change it at all. I argued that you spend energy fruitlessly attempting to convince people of something that you will be unsuccessful at.

You consistently fixate on the unimportant aspects to the detriment of what has actual import. If there are a group of Freemasons that control things and want you to worship Jews who think poisoning ourselves with crappy slave-created cheap things is great I am not part of them.

No. basically the difference is you have a defeated attitude which is all they need to instill in you to defeat you. In no way is not talking about it a good strategy.

What i mostly focus on in is the insanity and totalitarianism of fiat currency, the fascist nature of globalization, and the ongoing and obvious identity politics and abstraction abuse.

it's usually you trying to mischaracterize me. And you always do this too, you pretend to agree, while merely having a tactic and strategy disagreement. And that's just disingenuous. And bs too.

Hermes Thoth
02-11-2010, 01:52 PM
And then there was that time we we argued affimative action and you saying it was simply impossible to put white men on the protected list, but then you cracked and admitted you didn't really care because you had two daughters.

I see you.


<o> <0>

Damocles
02-11-2010, 01:55 PM
No. basically the difference is you have a defeated attitude which is all they need to instill in you to defeat you. In no way is not talking about it a good strategy.

What i mostly focus on in is the insanity and totalitarianism of fiat currency, the fascist nature of globalization, and the ongoing and obvious identity politics and abstraction abuse.

it's usually you trying to mischaracterize me. And you always do this too, you pretend to agree, while merely having a tactic and strategy disagreement. And that's just disingenuous. And bs too.
So far, how has it worked? Anybody in power suggesting we should do what you want? Work to elect people who agree with you, it's the only way to get what you want.

You continuously focus on the unimportant aspects (freemasonry for instance), to the detriment of any good ideas you may have.

Damocles
02-11-2010, 01:59 PM
And then there was that time we we argued affimative action and you saying it was simply impossible to put white men on the protected list, but then you cracked and admitted you didn't really care because you had two daughters.

I see you.


<o> <0>
No, I said that adding to the list is stupid, and that there are people in power who think that getting rid of it is a good idea. Work with them to get the right thing done rather than desperately trying to include yourself in the wrong thing.

What you "see" is only what you want to see, not what people actually say.

midcan5
02-11-2010, 02:13 PM
Why do people blame political ideologies for what is clearly a cultural issue - if it is an issue at all. The assumption here is technological knowledge is the cure for something, but what. What if we just graduated really nice, reasonable people who worked together, paid their fair share of taxes, considered the environment, and lived a greener lifestyle. In America money is the primary church, followed by sports, religion is way down there. So how do you make money and can you succeed at sports. From that follows our culture our values our lives. As far as the blame game, that is wasted time and beside the point.

Check this video out sometime.
http://www.ted.com/talks/clifford_stoll_on_everything.html


http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/commentary/morons/stupid.html
Amazon.com: Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling (9780865714489): John Taylor Gatto, Thomas Moore: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51er8xFcs8L.@@AMEPARAM@@51er8xFcs8L
http://www.dumbestgeneration.com/home.html
Amazon.com: High-Tech Heretic: Reflections of a Computer Contrarian (9780385489768): Clifford Stoll: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JMV859CTL.@@AMEPARAM@@41JMV859CTL
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10817
Amazon.com: The Dumbest Generation: How the Digital Age Stupefies Young Americans and Jeopardizes Our Future (Or, Don&#39;t Trust Anyone Under 30) (9781585426393): Mark Bauerlein: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411JegI9VyL.@@AMEPARAM@@411JegI9VyL

Hermes Thoth
02-11-2010, 02:14 PM
No, I said that adding to the list is stupid, and that there are people in power who think that getting rid of it is a good idea. Work with them to get the right thing done rather than desperately trying to include yourself in the wrong thing.

What you "see" is only what you want to see, not what people actually say.


You're mentally mangled.

Inclusion of all known races and genders in the quickest route to actual justice.

Your pseudorightous argument is just a house of cards of words.

FUCK THE POLICE
02-11-2010, 09:23 PM
*yawn*

PostmodernProphet
02-11-2010, 10:52 PM
You forgot this little bit of info:

Business degrees are far and away the most popular
major, accounting for 307,149 of the almost 1.4 million bachelor's
degrees awarded -- 22% of the total.

It appears the young are distracted from the sciences by being raised in a society that prizes love of monetary wealth above all else.

I know, life sucks....conservatives get business degrees while liberals become social workers and community organizers.....nobody wants to be a mere scientist any more.....

Minister of Truth
02-12-2010, 03:19 AM
*yawn*

I blame lazy-ass liberals for being lazy asses...

Hermes Thoth
02-12-2010, 09:09 AM
No, I said that adding to the list is stupid, and that there are people in power who think that getting rid of it is a good idea. Work with them to get the right thing done rather than desperately trying to include yourself in the wrong thing.

What you "see" is only what you want to see, not what people actually say.

Why is immediate effectiveness stupid? SOmetimes it's easier to just work within the framwork given. Putting all races/genders on the list eliminates any actual discrimination. Effectiveness is never stupid.

Cancel 2016.2
02-15-2010, 11:47 AM
I blame the Department of Education and the Teachers unions. Not to mention the philosophy of teaching to the lowest common denominator. The whole 'I don't want johnny to FEEL bad because he is in a remedial class whereas Jane is in the advanced class' line of bullshit is why we fall behind. We don't challenge the brightest students to reach their full potential.

Cancel 2016.2
02-15-2010, 11:48 AM
What are you talking about? Where did I say we should get rid of public education? An obvious poorly disguised strawman argument, or a total and immediate collapse of reading comprehension.

I simply stated that we need to expect a return on our investment, one in real terms based on what our children learn.

We've done what they asked of us, and they have failed to deliver, instead of looking to find a solution they simply start into how they don't have enough money and people are still buying it. We need to fix the education system, not add more money and think it will be "fixed". What we are currently doing isn't working.

The funny thing about the leg humpers post is that within the last week he posted how it was 'poor board etiquette' to create strawmen.

Damocles
02-15-2010, 12:08 PM
Why is immediate effectiveness stupid? SOmetimes it's easier to just work within the framwork given. Putting all races/genders on the list eliminates any actual discrimination. Effectiveness is never stupid.
Translation: Sometimes it is easier to give up and join in what you know to be wrong, because the end justifies the means. It's okay to be a fascistic if it works to my benefit. Hypocrisy is good for me. Next I'll support centralized banking systems and Keynesian economics because somebody will suggest a law that makes me one of the elite rich.

/translation

midcan5
02-15-2010, 02:07 PM
All I gotta ask is Malthus where are you......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL9Wu2kWwSY"

Minister of Truth
02-15-2010, 08:25 PM
Anyone who considers Malthus worth referencing is a moron.

FUCK THE POLICE
02-15-2010, 10:05 PM
I blame the Department of Education and the Teachers unions. Not to mention the philosophy of teaching to the lowest common denominator. The whole 'I don't want johnny to FEEL bad because he is in a remedial class whereas Jane is in the advanced class' line of bullshit is why we fall behind. We don't challenge the brightest students to reach their full potential.

Yes, and europe doesn't have teachers unions or nationalized education either.

You fail the test.

Try again later.

PostmodernProphet
02-15-2010, 10:30 PM
why do liberals always want us to be like Europe.....have you looked at Europe lately?.....

Minister of Truth
02-16-2010, 04:06 AM
American liberals hate the European system, though.

The reason for this is simple. American liberals (at least those who invest their time into educational policy) believe that education should become more egalitarian. This means, offering everyone a chance in public education. In the past, we simply set a bar, and you either met it or not. This does not always mean lowering the bar, which happens, but spending money to facilitate more support for those who are struggling/fucking around. Spending money on support for everyone is why education is so damned expensive.

Europe does not do this. European liberals will pay for universal education, but if you do not meat standards, you will not wind up on a college-bound track. In Europe, you are allowed to fail, or to at least wind up on a lesser track (general education or vocational education).

Minister of Truth
02-16-2010, 04:15 AM
There is another thing that liberals obsess over in this country. That is the style of education which teachers employ. In Europe, teachers study pedogogy, but here, the study of pedogogy is really bizarre. Teaching to everyone means making sure we hit everyone's learning style (visual, auditory, kinestetic), and as such, it places an emphasis on various techniques to make the classroom more student-centered and democratic.

This is one of the problems. Differing the strategies helps prevent boring lectures, which are problematic, but taken very far, they lead to teachers struggling to manage the classroom and maintain order. Elements of a democratic classroom are great for teaching civics, but move very far from a limited and highly structured format, and it fails miserably.

I got screwed over because students at the level I was working with this past fall tend not to want to work with each other. Its based upon the student-centered concept, and the belief in cooperative learning as being essential. Well, now I'm left without the ability to get certified, because my student teaching was a trainwreck. There were other issues, but they weren't immediately problematic, whereas demonstrating competency in those areas was do or die.

Mott the Hoople
02-16-2010, 12:57 PM
I have a novel idea on how to attract kids into science and technology. Pay scientist and technologist more!

I think it would be unwise to politicise this issue. The fact is, the major discouraging factor for kids going into science is that these fields and the profesionals in them are simply not respected in our culture.

I have a graduate education in science and technology. The general attitude about people like me is that were geeks, nerds, misfits, etc. The stereotype is that of the scrawny wimp with horned rim glasses taped together at the nose bridge.

Until the people of this nation learn to value and reward those of us with science and technology backgrounds you'll continue to see a decline.

Mott the Hoople
02-16-2010, 01:00 PM
why do liberals always want us to be like Europe.....have you looked at Europe lately?.....How comes you can always tell someone from the far right by the smell of burning straw? That's a total strawman. There's nothing wrong with looking to other nations, cultures and societies about how to do things better. What you're advocating is isolationism and intellectual inbreeding/conformity. Yea...that's a great strategy. Be competative with the rest of the world by ignoring it. Yea....that'll work.

Mott the Hoople
02-16-2010, 01:11 PM
I know, life sucks....conservatives get business degrees while liberals become social workers and community organizers.....nobody wants to be a mere scientist any more.....I do! :-)

And who say's it's mutually exclusive? Why can't I be a scientist engaged in busines who loves the liberal arts(which is what I am)? What's up with this all or nothing narrow minded shit?

Mott the Hoople
02-16-2010, 01:13 PM
Why do people blame political ideologies for what is clearly a cultural issue - if it is an issue at all. The assumption here is technological knowledge is the cure for something, but what. What if we just graduated really nice, reasonable people who worked together, paid their fair share of taxes, considered the environment, and lived a greener lifestyle. In America money is the primary church, followed by sports, religion is way down there. So how do you make money and can you succeed at sports. From that follows our culture our values our lives. As far as the blame game, that is wasted time and beside the point.


I agree, this is a cultural issue more than a political one.

Mott the Hoople
02-16-2010, 01:14 PM
I blame the Department of Education and the Teachers unions. Not to mention the philosophy of teaching to the lowest common denominator. The whole 'I don't want johnny to FEEL bad because he is in a remedial class whereas Jane is in the advanced class' line of bullshit is why we fall behind. We don't challenge the brightest students to reach their full potential.Really and what school did you get your degree in science from?

ZappasGuitar
02-16-2010, 02:32 PM
I blame liberals. For decades we have given "more money" consistently to the schools for negative return....we spend more per capita and get less for our investment than ever before.


What are you talking about? Where did I say we should get rid of public education?

We've done what they asked of us, and they have failed to deliver, instead of looking to find a solution they simply start into how they don't have enough money and people are still buying it. We need to fix the education system, not add more money and think it will be "fixed". What we are currently doing isn't working.


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that first comment from you was a ringing endorsement of our educational system...I don't know if you are aware, but it sure didn't come off sounding that way.

Well, you've obviously got all the answers. How do we "fix it"? You spend hour after hour telling others how wrong their ideas are. Obviously you think you know what will and will not work...so how do we fix it?

Minister of Truth
02-16-2010, 04:46 PM
Thanks for the deflection, Zappas.

PostmodernProphet
02-16-2010, 05:51 PM
There's nothing wrong with looking to other nations, cultures and societies about how to do things better.

????....now why would I argue with that.....the difference comes, when I see something done worse, I don't try to emulate it......

PostmodernProphet
02-16-2010, 05:52 PM
Why can't I be a scientist engaged in busines who loves the liberal arts
because you're a lab technician who fills petri dishes with gunk and waits for them to grow something?.....

Cypress
02-16-2010, 06:35 PM
I have a novel idea on how to attract kids into science and technology. Pay scientist and technologist more!

I think it would be unwise to politicise this issue. The fact is, the major discouraging factor for kids going into science is that these fields and the profesionals in them are simply not respected in our culture.

I blame conservatards. C'mon, they hate evolution, they're flat earth climate deniers, and they hate stem cell research. C'mon, Sarah Palin, Ronald Reagan, and George Dumbya? What the f is that about? They celebrate ignorance, and they consider university educated people and professors to be pin headed geeks. Just read a Dixie post - he's fairly representative of the Con base. There's something about universities that drive them nuts. Republicans never valued higher education, they're the party of business. They want a workforce who can read, write, do arithmetic, and doesn't join a union. Period. Have republicans ever supported higher education, in any sustained way? No. Liberals were the genius's behind the GI bill, the Student loan program, Pell Grants, and public land grant universities. The answer is more socialism.



I have a graduate education in science and technology. The general attitude about people like me is that we're geeks, nerds, misfits, etc. The stereotype is that of the scrawny wimp with horned rim glasses taped together at the nose bridge.


Interesting....wow, must be an Ohio thing! I work with gals who have engineering and science degrees who are not only hella hot, but freaking genius's as well!




ps, Ha, just teasing about ohio

TuTu Monroe
02-16-2010, 07:43 PM
I blame the Department of Education and the Teachers unions. Not to mention the philosophy of teaching to the lowest common denominator. The whole 'I don't want johnny to FEEL bad because he is in a remedial class whereas Jane is in the advanced class' line of bullshit is why we fall behind. We don't challenge the brightest students to reach their full potential.

We have failed our children in a big way and we should be ashamed. I cringe when I see children coming out of our school system and they don't even know the basics.

tinfoil
02-17-2010, 12:42 AM
I blame conservatards. C'mon, they hate evolution, they're flat earth climate deniers, and they hate stem cell research. C'mon, Sarah Palin, Ronald Reagan, and George Dumbya? What the f is that about? They celebrate ignorance, and they consider university educated people and professors to be pin headed geeks. Just read a Dixie post - he's fairly representative of the Con base. There's something about universities that drive them nuts. Republicans never valued higher education, they're the party of business. They want a workforce who can read, write, do arithmetic, and doesn't join a union. Period. Have republicans ever supported higher education, in any sustained way? No. Liberals were the genius's behind the GI bill, the Student loan program, Pell Grants, and public land grant universities. The answer is more socialism.




Interesting....wow, must be an Ohio thing! I work with gals who have engineering and science degrees who are not only hella hot, but freaking genius's as well!




ps, Ha, just teasing about ohio

hey mr. warmer, where have you been lately? Your religion is falling apart. So badly, you can't even defend it any more yet you still call names like flat-earther. LOL you are a total douchebag AND an ignoramus. What's it feel like to have your scientific beliefs totally in doubt? Do you even follow current science?

Minister of Truth
02-17-2010, 03:15 AM
hey mr. warmer, where have you been lately? Your religion is falling apart. So badly, you can't even defend it any more yet you still call names like flat-earther. LOL you are a total douchebag AND an ignoramus. What's it feel like to have your scientific beliefs totally in doubt? Do you even follow current science?

Notice how you threw the "flat-earther" term out the other day, and suddenly a liberal comes running out trying to usurp the insult from you for his own hurling? :cof1:

PostmodernProphet
02-17-2010, 07:04 AM
Interesting....wow, must be an Ohio thing! I work with gals who have engineering and science degrees who are not only hella hot, but freaking genius's as well!




ps, Ha, just teasing about ohio

invalid assumption.....it may just be a Mott thing.....

Topspin
02-17-2010, 08:29 AM
sit back and learn dumbass teabaggers, The US leads in tech
Apple
Microsoft
intel
cisco
IBM
Google
It's not too late for you middle aged teabaggers to go to college. Really

Minister of Truth
02-17-2010, 08:34 AM
sit back and learn dumbass teabaggers, The US leads in tech
Apple
Microsoft
intel
cisco
IBM
Google
It's not too late for you middle aged teabaggers to go to college. Really

People are complaining about how few students are coming out of schools with the skills to contribute to science and technology. They are not saying our tech sector is shitty.

Cancel 2016.2
02-17-2010, 08:37 AM
Really and what school did you get your degree in science from?

What does the above have to do with my comment?

Hermes Thoth
02-17-2010, 08:37 AM
People are complaining about how few students are coming out of schools with the skills to contribute to science and technology. They are not saying our tech sector is shitty.

Who's complaining? The trade lobby? SO they let in foreigners on h1-b's so they can avoid giving americans real careers?

Topspin
02-17-2010, 08:53 AM
People are complaining about how few students are coming out of schools with the skills to contribute to science and technology. They are not saying our tech sector is shitty.

They say it as it we don't have enough students coming out of colleges with good degrees which is hillarious.

ZappasGuitar
02-17-2010, 02:15 PM
Thanks for the deflection, Zappas.

I honestly want to know what his ideas are! He's told me too many times to count how wrong I am, on subjects ranging from politics to the NFL, so I eagerly await his well thought out response.

Canceled1
02-17-2010, 04:50 PM
I honestly want to know what his ideas are! He's told me too many times to count how wrong I am, on subjects ranging from politics to the NFL, so I eagerly await his well thought out response.

I call BULLSHIT! You want to force Damo into seeing it your way and unless and until he does you will be so far up his ass he'll have to hire a proctologist just to extricate you.

In other words? Same old candy-assed Zappa! If you don't listen, I will whine and shriek til you do.

Topspin
02-17-2010, 05:02 PM
A leading futurist has all your panties in a wad. Lol really!!!

Mott the Hoople
02-17-2010, 06:32 PM
I blame conservatards. C'mon, they hate evolution, they're flat earth climate deniers, and they hate stem cell research. C'mon, Sarah Palin, Ronald Reagan, and George Dumbya? What the f is that about? They celebrate ignorance, and they consider university educated people and professors to be pin headed geeks. Just read a Dixie post - he's fairly representative of the Con base. There's something about universities that drive them nuts. Republicans never valued higher education, they're the party of business. They want a workforce who can read, write, do arithmetic, and doesn't join a union. Period. Have republicans ever supported higher education, in any sustained way? No. Liberals were the genius's behind the GI bill, the Student loan program, Pell Grants, and public land grant universities. The answer is more socialism.




Interesting....wow, must be an Ohio thing! I work with gals who have engineering and science degrees who are not only hella hot, but freaking genius's as well!




ps, Ha, just teasing about ohioThen how you would you explain people like Southern Man who has one of the best science educations of any of the posters on here? He defies your stereotype on conservatives. Oh sure there's a strong anti-intellectual streak in conservatives but I know quite a few people with science and technology back grounds who are intensely conservative, in fact most engineers I know are conservatives. Most the physicians and medical technology people I know are conservative. No that stereotype is just a convenient excuse.

The hard cold fact is that those with science and technology backgrounds are not respected as highly in our culture as they are in others.

For example. How many of the liberal posters on here have at least an undergraduate education in the natural sciences?

Can we see a show of hands?

FUCK THE POLICE
02-17-2010, 06:33 PM
I'm getting an undergraduate degree in physics.

Mott the Hoople
02-17-2010, 06:34 PM
hey mr. warmer, where have you been lately? Your religion is falling apart. So badly, you can't even defend it any more yet you still call names like flat-earther. LOL you are a total douchebag AND an ignoramus. What's it feel like to have your scientific beliefs totally in doubt? Do you even follow current science?Well Cyprus after reading Tinheads post here you might just be right. :(

FUCK THE POLICE
02-17-2010, 06:35 PM
How does the blithering fool SM know anything about science? Ridiculous. If he got a "science" degree he's lying or he has some soon to be outsourced job in some kind of money making scheme that doesn't really have anything to do with science.

Mott the Hoople
02-17-2010, 06:37 PM
What does the above have to do with my comment?
Have you taken the time and effort to obtain a science education? My point is your comment lacks credibility if your not walking the talk.

ZappasGuitar
02-17-2010, 06:40 PM
I call BULLSHIT! You want to force Damo into seeing it your way and unless and until he does you will be so far up his ass he'll have to hire a proctologist just to extricate you.

In other words? Same old candy-assed Zappa! If you don't listen, I will whine and shriek til you do.

Funny you should mention Damo's ass. As I maneuvered to get all up in there, I found I couldn't get by, because you had your big ol lips already pressed firmly in place dead center on his bum!

btw...you still got a little poopie on the tip of yer nose from yer constant poopersmoochin...LOL

Damocles
02-17-2010, 06:47 PM
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that first comment from you was a ringing endorsement of our educational system...I don't know if you are aware, but it sure didn't come off sounding that way.

Well, you've obviously got all the answers. How do we "fix it"? You spend hour after hour telling others how wrong their ideas are. Obviously you think you know what will and will not work...so how do we fix it?

What inanity is this? Which part of failure means I endorse continuing to increase funding for the current system? There is also no part of my previous posts that suggests there should be no public education system. Saying that one thing is bad doesn't mean I think we should destroy all things like it. Currently we spend BMW prices to get a Yugo education, I suggest we start expecting BMW results for our BMW spending. Get rid of the Yugo, not all cars.

1. We must stop just throwing money at this problem without expectations, all efforts to do this in the past have met with failure, I gave examples.
2. We need to attach the money to the child (like they do in the best European schooling systems and Japan once they hit HS), let the parents decide which school is best to teach their child based on the results the schools have had and the education goals of the parents and child. (The first step in a solution). We need the schools to compete for the students by becoming effective in education.
3. We cannot continue to expect the Teachers Union (which 70% of members are not teachers) to have the best interest of students in mind, their direct and only interest is in negotiating for the members of the union, not the students, otherwise it would be called the 'Students Union'...

Canceled1
02-17-2010, 07:15 PM
Funny you should mention Damo's ass. As I maneuvered to get all up in there, I found I couldn't get by, because you had your big ol lips already pressed firmly in place dead center on his bum!

btw...you still got a little poopie on the tip of yer nose from yer constant poopersmoochin...LOL

Then if I were you I'd keep your trap shut at all times because you're in your own feces up to your bulging eyes. Beside blimpo, every time you open your mouth you swallow your fat head and then proceed to step in your own shit.

'Course no one demonstrates being a fool better than you Zapless.

You may not be much, but you're definitely all you ever think of. Fact is when you're around, it's hard to think about anything else, much less see.

FUCK THE POLICE
02-17-2010, 11:16 PM
Have you taken the time and effort to obtain a science education? My point is your comment lacks credibility if your not walking the talk.

Biology isn't a real science.

Minister of Truth
02-18-2010, 12:15 AM
Biology isn't a real science.

I know you are only trolling Mott, here, but the only thing that separates biology from most other natural sciences is that it isn't as math heavy as they are (chemistry, engineering, physics, etc.).

Hermes Thoth
02-18-2010, 03:24 AM
I know you are only trolling Mott, here, but the only thing that separates biology from most other natural sciences is that it isn't as math heavy as they are (chemistry, engineering, physics, etc.).

wrong. It's higher level. It involves chemistry, physics and engineering.

Minister of Truth
02-18-2010, 03:57 AM
wrong. It's higher level. It involves chemistry, physics and engineering.

Right, there's biochemistry for the biologists, but there's also organic chemistry for the chemists. That doesn't change the fact biology is not generally as math heavy. That said, if you can excel in biology, you are all set for med school, and way more money than the other scientists will likely see except for the engineers who make it big as contractors.

Mott the Hoople
02-18-2010, 05:52 AM
How does the blithering fool SM know anything about science? Ridiculous. If he got a "science" degree he's lying or he has some soon to be outsourced job in some kind of money making scheme that doesn't really have anything to do with science.He knows more then you do. Which probably isn't saying much for SM. :pke:

Mott the Hoople
02-18-2010, 06:00 AM
I know you are only trolling Mott, here, but the only thing that separates biology from most other natural sciences is that it isn't as math heavy as they are (chemistry, engineering, physics, etc.).
That's only true at the entry level. Biology isn't that demanding a science to study at the entry level because there's limits in what you can teach in the subject until you've advanced your education in basic sciences, such as, math, physics and chemistry, particularly organic chemistry. Try studying a biological subject like how blood circulates through a body or the electro-chemical process of how nerve impulses are generated and propagated. You'll see plenty of physics, chemistry and math.

Don't pay no attention to Watermark. He's just trying to get under my skin by making a nonsense statement.

Mott the Hoople
02-18-2010, 06:01 AM
wrong. It's higher level. It involves chemistry, physics and engineering.That is correct! :good4u:

Mott the Hoople
02-18-2010, 06:05 AM
Right, there's biochemistry for the biologists, but there's also organic chemistry for the chemists. That doesn't change the fact biology is not generally as math heavy. That said, if you can excel in biology, you are all set for med school, and way more money than the other scientists will likely see except for the engineers who make it big as contractors.
That depends on the biological field you working in. For example, most certified industrial hygenist (the life science version of a PE) I know have biology undergraduate degrees and masters in public health and they spend most of their time doing mathematical models in calculus and statistics. There job is large part based on mathematical skills.

If your a physiologist, you'd better have some pretty high level math skills too or your not going to progress very far.

If you an anatomist, ehhh not to much math needed there.

Topspin
02-18-2010, 06:39 AM
A LEADING FUTURIST is telling you China is so much better. LOL

Their per capita income is about $3,000 a person being generous.

Also read more from this guy, he probably has a flying car in your future.

ZappasGuitar
02-18-2010, 01:59 PM
What inanity is this? Which part of failure means I endorse continuing to increase funding for the current system? There is also no part of my previous posts that suggests there should be no public education system. Saying that one thing is bad doesn't mean I think we should destroy all things like it. Currently we spend BMW prices to get a Yugo education, I suggest we start expecting BMW results for our BMW spending. Get rid of the Yugo, not all cars.

1. We must stop just throwing money at this problem without expectations, all efforts to do this in the past have met with failure, I gave examples.
2. We need to attach the money to the child (like they do in the best European schooling systems and Japan once they hit HS), let the parents decide which school is best to teach their child based on the results the schools have had and the education goals of the parents and child. (The first step in a solution). We need the schools to compete for the students by becoming effective in education.
3. We cannot continue to expect the Teachers Union (which 70% of members are not teachers) to have the best interest of students in mind, their direct and only interest is in negotiating for the members of the union, not the students, otherwise it would be called the 'Students Union'...

But haven't I read on here that the USA spends roughly $11,000 per child per year for public education?

If that's true, then that ain't no BMW...maybe a set of TIRES for a BMW...nothing more. You want our kids to get the BMW education, then we gotta pay the BMW price, which is much more than $11,000 per year.

As I have said before, I am all for vouchers as long as families from the poorest performing schools get to place their children in the school of their choice BEFORE the wealthy simply buy their way into all the top performing schools.

Damocles
02-18-2010, 03:14 PM
But haven't I read on here that the USA spends roughly $11,000 per child per year for public education?

If that's true, then that ain't no BMW...maybe a set of TIRES for a BMW...nothing more. You want our kids to get the BMW education, then we gotta pay the BMW price, which is much more than $11,000 per year.

As I have said before, I am all for vouchers as long as families from the poorest performing schools get to place their children in the school of their choice BEFORE the wealthy simply buy their way into all the top performing schools.
Where did you read that? In 2005 we spent $11,000 per student, tied for 1st with Switzerland, yet we were outperformed by many nations with a much smaller budget. And I speak of differences in per capita spending with equitable programs in more successful nations. We spend more than we ever have, and get less for it consistently with no end in sight. Throwing our good money after bad is just stupid, there's nothing like our nation to prove that a fool and his money are soon parted.

And I don't personally care if you are "for" vouchers, there is only one thing we all should know by now, continuing on the same failed path we are on now only leads to more failure.

Tell me why do you assume the "top performing" schools are even private schools that can choose which students they get to accept based on how much money they spend? We need the public schools to compete against the "top performing" schools so they can become "top performing"...

We can't, for instance, continue paying the crappiest teachers to sit and do nothing or passing them on to school after school in the "lemon dance" like they do in NYC. There is absolutely no way we should continue what we are doing solely to fulfill your sense of wealth redistribution "fairness".

Currently the "rich" pay their way into those schools you don't want them to be able to pay their way into, the only thing that "vouchers" could do would be force them to compete with some more children for their spots, however continuing what we are doing only ensure what you want to avoid will continue.

In short, the way to make sure the students you want to have a chance to go to those top performing schools actually get a chance to do it is NOT by attempting to stop any chance at giving them a choice.

PostmodernProphet
02-18-2010, 05:22 PM
But haven't I read on here that the USA spends roughly $11,000 per child per year for public education?

If that's true, then that ain't no BMW...maybe a set of TIRES for a BMW...nothing more. You want our kids to get the BMW education, then we gotta pay the BMW price, which is much more than $11,000 per year.

As I have said before, I am all for vouchers as long as families from the poorest performing schools get to place their children in the school of their choice BEFORE the wealthy simply buy their way into all the top performing schools.

the two most expensive public school systems in the country are Detroit and Washington DC.....which also provide the worst education....

Crashk
02-18-2010, 06:33 PM
the two most expensive public school systems in the country are Detroit and Washington DC.....which also provide the worst education....

Link?

PostmodernProphet
02-18-2010, 08:12 PM
Link?

http://www.examiner.com/a-1427596~Study_predicts_D_C__graduation_rate_will_r emain_low.html
http://www.grpundit.com/2007/06/12/detroit-schools-75-dropout-rate/
Detroit Education Spending per Student $ 11,100.00 the highest in the country resulting in a 25% graduation rate.
http://www.zimbio.com/Barack+Obama/articles/5pX95WwvFxR/Detroit+Poster+Boy+Leftists+Policies
New York was the biggest spender on education, at $14,119 per student, with New Jersey second at $13,800 and Washington, D.C., third at $12,979, the Census Bureau said
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2438214220070524

here's an interesting one...
To calculate total spending, we have to add up all sources of funding for education from kindergarten through 12th grade, excluding spending on charter schools and higher education. For the current school year, the local operating budget is $831 million, including relevant expenses such as the teacher retirement fund. The capital budget is $218 million. The District receives about $85.5 million in federal funding. And the D.C. Council contributes an extra $81 million. Divide all that by the 49,422 students enrolled (for the 2007-08 year) and you end up with about $24,600 per child.


For comparison, total per pupil spending at D.C. area private schools -- among the most upscale in the nation -- averages about $10,000 less. For most private schools, the difference is even greater. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/04/AR2008040402921.html

Mott the Hoople
02-20-2010, 08:57 AM
the two most expensive public school systems in the country are Detroit and Washington DC.....which also provide the worst education....So what? People around here are spending twice that much sending their kids to a local Nazarene school where their lucky if the empty headed little buggers actually learn to tie their own shoes (Thank god for velcro!) but they can say the Lords Prayer!

Though maybe I'm being a little harsh in holding it against them that they consistently test in the bottom quarter in the nation in math and science.

PostmodernProphet
02-20-2010, 03:48 PM
I know nothing about your local school....though it wouldn't take much to find a 5th grader as intelligent as you from any school.....and I would be seriously surprised if the parents are spending twice what it costs to educate a student in Washington DC.....I will leave it up to your discretion whether you devote the time to documenting your claims.....I expect the effort would be counterproductive.....

asaratis
02-20-2010, 06:49 PM
The blame for the decline of American schools belongs jointly to the teachers union for putting performance low on their list of teacher qualifications and the liberal mentality that has taught our children that they do not have to work.