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Dixie - In Memoriam
12-07-2006, 04:30 PM
I've been doing a little research on the Muslim faith, and I believe I am starting to understand why so many pinheads seem to almost side with the Muslims against the civilized world. It's because Islam is the Religion of Pinheads! Yes, it's true! When you cut to the chase, and get right down to the meat and potatoes of what Islam is all about, it comports nicely with the mainstream liberal agenda.

First, there is the basic concept. Islam was founded on the principles of Mohammed, who routinely committed adultery on his wife, just as many great liberal leaders. The tenants of the faith are rooted somewhat in Christian belief, in other words, Mohammed 'triangulated' the ideals he wanted to use, and sold it as his own. Then there is the premise that Muslims are mandated to help the needy, poor, and downtrodden... not just help them by giving of themselves and their belongings, but helping them by literally taking and stealing from the rich and wealthy.

Digging deeper, we find that Muslims thrive on dividing people into sub-groups, and promoting discrimination based on those groups. It empowers them, to be able to classify people as "Infidels", just as the leftists will define people based on race or ethnicity, or even geographic locale. So, they have the same exact means of gaining power and influence, through dividing people against each other.

Muslims disavow Christianity, and are intolerant of it completely, just as the liberal scum who want to take prayer out of school and God out of the public square. They also believe they are doing the world a favor by spreading their message and forcing others to believe as they do, and any attempts to contradict this, is met with accusations of bigotry, racism, and prejudice.

Much like the Liberal Left, Muslims will consistently talk out of both sides of their mouth, they will maintain that Islam is a 'religion of peace' and at the same time, call for violence and jihad against those who disagree with them. Any injustice against a Muslim, is met with loud protest from other Muslims around the world, yet when a similar injustice falls upon a Christian or Jew, there is utter silence. We see this same double-standard with Liberals all the time. A conservative can merely be accused of something, and the liberals will find him guilty by default, but a liberal can be proven to have broken the law and committed crimes, and they will deny any wrong-doing ever happened.

It is amazing, when you compare Muslim radicals with Liberal radicals, how much their ideological traits are similar. I believe this is why we have so many pinheads who continue to inexplicably defend the radical Muslims. ....Birds of a Feather!

maineman
12-07-2006, 04:44 PM
so many words.... so little content

::yawn::

Cypress
12-07-2006, 04:51 PM
:blah: :blah:

:blah:

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-07-2006, 05:37 PM
ooooooOOOoooo.... truth hurts, eh?

Beefy
12-07-2006, 05:52 PM
Well, Jesus would shit if he saw what the "Christians" were doing in his name. Most religions are a bunch of hocus pocus that has been grossly perverted from its original intent.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-07-2006, 07:20 PM
Well, Jesus would shit if he saw what the "Christians" were doing in his name. Most religions are a bunch of hocus pocus that has been grossly perverted from its original intent.

So, now you speak for when Christ would shit? What exactly are Christians doing in His name, that you think Jesus would be upset with? This is another one of your typical slaps at something, with no real basis or reason. You do not speak for Christ, and you have no idea of what Jesus would or wouldn't be happy with or upset about, were he here on Earth today.

I can't speak for other religions, but in Christianity, there is no 'hocus pocus'. The doctrine followed by Christians, is 2,000 years old, and consistently brings the same message through history. Being a Christian is as simple as accepting Christ as your personal savior, and the Son of God. There is no hocus pocus to that, if you truly believe it, you are promised everlasting life.

It's always good to hear from a lost soul, on what they think Jesus would say or do, but your responses are incredibly transparent and lacking substance. I doubt many Christians are going to read your post, and suddenly realize you are right about religion, and forsake their faith in God, so I wonder why you go to the trouble? From my perspective, it is merely lashing out in anger at God, for whatever reasons you must have. I will pray for you, and I hope you do find salvation someday.

maineman
12-07-2006, 07:48 PM
ooooooOOOoooo.... truth hurts, eh?

no ...there is not a spec of truth in it. Last Sunday I served Communion...last night was the board of deacon's meeting... tonight was choir practice...this Sunday I read the New Testament reading and my family lights the advent candle. I am a devout Christian and am insulted by your rantings that would suggest otherwise.

I have lived amongst muslims... not on some army base guarded from them, but amongst them. I know that they are peaceful people...from years of experience...experience you do not share. You are wrong about muslims and you are wrong about liberals....

but like all of your gadfly rants, this one is designed to provoke heat and not shed light. It is long on biased and slanted rhetoric and devoid of intellectually honest content. YOu have no desire to debate and learn and evolve in your thinking....you just want to rant. And pronosticate. You rant well.... all heat, no light... you prognosicate for shit.... always have, always will.

Say... given the fact that Zarqawi has been dead for some time now, shouldn't that insurgency be coming to an end any day now as you predicted?

maineman
12-07-2006, 07:57 PM
So, now you speak for when Christ would shit? What exactly are Christians doing in His name, that you think Jesus would be upset with? This is another one of your typical slaps at something, with no real basis or reason. You do not speak for Christ, and you have no idea of what Jesus would or wouldn't be happy with or upset about, were he here on Earth today.

I can't speak for other religions, but in Christianity, there is no 'hocus pocus'. The doctrine followed by Christians, is 2,000 years old, and consistently brings the same message through history. Being a Christian is as simple as accepting Christ as your personal savior, and the Son of God. There is no hocus pocus to that, if you truly believe it, you are promised everlasting life.

It's always good to hear from a lost soul, on what they think Jesus would say or do, but your responses are incredibly transparent and lacking substance. I doubt many Christians are going to read your post, and suddenly realize you are right about religion, and forsake their faith in God, so I wonder why you go to the trouble? From my perspective, it is merely lashing out in anger at God, for whatever reasons you must have. I will pray for you, and I hope you do find salvation someday.

ah..the old works versus grace argument. typical of your type of Christian who don't feel the need to DO anything...and think that all you have to do is profess Jesus as Lord on your deathbed and off you go to heaven.... I happen to believe in grace but also believe that Jesus preached His gospel for a reason - that He wanted us to LIVE our lives a certain way... and to DO His work on earth and not be content to rely of His saving grace alone. My faith is shown in my actions. YOurs is shown in self righteous piety.

Jesus said "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

To Christians who believe that salvation comes from DOING GOd's work, that is pretty strong and clear guidance.... and when we invade countries and kill people with shock and awe and rape them and murder them and torture them, we are NOT following the very clear instructions from Jesus.

YOur kind of Christian turns my stomach...but if you showed up in line at our soup kitchen, I would serve you and not turn you away for ANY reason.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-07-2006, 08:36 PM
no ...there is not a spec of truth in it.

I think I gave legitimate comparisons, and that isn't a matter of 'truth' as much as 'opinion', which you are entitled to a different one.

Last Sunday I served Communion...last night was the board of deacon's meeting... tonight was choir practice...this Sunday I read the New Testament reading and my family lights the advent candle. I am a devout Christian and am insulted by your rantings that would suggest otherwise.

I don't care what rituals you performed last week or any other week. I never said that you weren't a Christian, just that the Muslim faith is custom-built for Pinhead consumption. It's almost as if, pinheads made a religion!

Say... given the fact that Zarqawi has been dead for some time now, shouldn't that insurgency be coming to an end any day now as you predicted?

Yeah, I guess this dispells the liberal myth about going after Osama, huh? After all, if we had gotten Osama, it wouldn't have done a thing to alQaeda, as we can now see clearly with Zarqawi. It's funny how some things that happen, fuck up other things that you claim should happen.

typical of your type of Christian who don't feel the need to DO anything...and think that all you have to do is profess Jesus as Lord on your deathbed and off you go to heaven....

Typical of a judgemental hypocrite destined to burn forever in hell, because you couldn't obey God and not judge the heart of your fellow man. You don't have a clue as to what "kind of Christian" I am, and you shouldn't go around claiming you do, instead, you should worry about your own Christianity, and by the way, that doesn't include boasting about what you've done to appear to be a good Christian, none of that counts for squat.

I never said you need only profess Christ on your deathbed, but Christianity is a religion of acceptance, you do have to accept Jesus as your personal savior, and from my understanding, that is the only required action needed to get into heaven. If you truly profess Jesus as Lord, you will want to do many other things in his honor, but it is not required of you, and will not keep you from getting to heaven if you don't. There is no predetermined percentage of times you have to go to church, you don't have to sing in the choir, you don't have to have communion or read scriptures, the only thing you HAVE to do, is accept Christ as your personal savior.

I happen to believe in grace but also believe that Jesus preached His gospel for a reason - that He wanted us to LIVE our lives a certain way

Right! And if you are truly a born-again Christian, you will be frustrated if you DON'T get to do those things, because you love the Lord, and it's part of following his word. This doesn't mean God expects you to do these things to get to heaven, nor does it mean you have to. By the way, Jesus wanted you to live your life without judgement or prejudice of others, and you're not doing a very good job of that.

To Christians who believe that salvation comes from DOING GOd's work, that is pretty strong and clear guidance.... and when we invade countries and kill people with shock and awe and rape them and murder them and torture them, we are NOT following the very clear instructions from Jesus.

And when we turn our backs to a tyrant dictator who is raping and murdering innocent people, we are forsaking God and his will, as well as forsaking the message of Jesus Christ.

YOur kind of Christian turns my stomach...

I'm sure God is proud of you for judging me yet again in this single post. I think he intended on Maineman being the determiner of who is the right type of Christian and who isn't, and he just forgot to tell the rest of us or put that in the Bible.

but if you showed up in line at our soup kitchen, I would serve you and not turn you away for ANY reason.

Even after I told them what a two-faced hypocritical fraud you are?

Beefy
12-07-2006, 09:04 PM
So, now you speak for when Christ would shit? What exactly are Christians doing in His name, that you think Jesus would be upset with? This is another one of your typical slaps at something, with no real basis or reason. You do not speak for Christ, and you have no idea of what Jesus would or wouldn't be happy with or upset about, were he here on Earth today.

I can't speak for other religions, but in Christianity, there is no 'hocus pocus'. The doctrine followed by Christians, is 2,000 years old, and consistently brings the same message through history. Being a Christian is as simple as accepting Christ as your personal savior, and the Son of God. There is no hocus pocus to that, if you truly believe it, you are promised everlasting life.

It's always good to hear from a lost soul, on what they think Jesus would say or do, but your responses are incredibly transparent and lacking substance. I doubt many Christians are going to read your post, and suddenly realize you are right about religion, and forsake their faith in God, so I wonder why you go to the trouble? From my perspective, it is merely lashing out in anger at God, for whatever reasons you must have. I will pray for you, and I hope you do find salvation someday.

I have quite a good relationship with God Dix. It is mine though, not that of a book or a strict religious indoctrination. I have many associated who are Evangelical Christians, and some of their beliefs are as alarming as that of Al Quaeda. A guy I used to work for told me that if he ran the world, he would give gays 1 chance to repent, and if they didn't he'd have them killed. He'd have every muslim killed. Anyone who didn't support Israel would be killed.

He believes that God will send billions of souls to eternal merciless torture because they don't have the right relationship with him. Read some chick tracts. There's about 45 million Americans who are biblical literalists like Jack Chick who look at gays and muslims ad demons, Jews as the "chosen people" yet somehow still condemned to hell, Catholics as Nazi's, he calls the eucharist the death cookie and calls the Catholic Church the "Great Satan".

Every denomination has become a political organization and I doubt Jesus would be happy with any of them, and yes I have read and studied Jesus' wisdom. I think he is arguably the greatest man, one of the most enlightened men to ever live. I don't think he'd be happy with what many "Christians" believe, say or do.

Onceler
12-07-2006, 09:52 PM
From the 1st time I saw Dixie post, I realized that he truly exemplified the old adage "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing." On this thread, as soon as I read "I've been doing a little research on the Muslim faith," I knew we were in for trouble. Emphasis on the word "little" in that sentence.

And Dixie, you are no more a Christian than I am a Muslim. If Christ were alive today & you didn't recognize him, you'd call him a pinhead & try to convince him that invading Iraq was the right decision...

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-07-2006, 10:00 PM
From the 1st time I saw Dixie post, I realized that he truly exemplified the old adage "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing." On this thread, as soon as I read "I've been doing a little research on the Muslim faith," I knew we were in for trouble. Emphasis on the word "little" in that sentence.

And Dixie, you are no more a Christian than I am a Muslim. If Christ were alive today & you didn't recognize him, you'd call him a pinhead & try to convince him that invading Iraq was the right decision...

Wow, amazing! You are the 4th pinhead who has bothered to interject your opinion on this thread, while refuting my opinion without presenting any sort of substanative argument with what I said. I guess you morons really think that people will just read your blanket refutiations and assume that you've successfully countered my opinions somehow?

And Lummox, congratulations on becoming a Muslim, I knew you'd love it if you gave it a chance!

Onceler
12-07-2006, 10:05 PM
No, I'm a Christian. That is why I can say with both certainty & authority that you are not.

Beefy
12-07-2006, 10:34 PM
Wow, amazing! You are the 4th pinhead who has bothered to interject your opinion on this thread, while refuting my opinion without presenting any sort of substanative argument with what I said. I guess you morons really think that people will just read your blanket refutiations and assume that you've successfully countered my opinions somehow?


Pot meet kettle.

If you're trying to claim that radical religious fanatics are anything by definition other than reactionaries, then so be it. But you sure are quick to judge, not to turn the other cheek, not to love your enemies (which of course means 'have no enemies'). Those are the teachings of Christ. You don't live by them. Yet you are a "Christian".

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-07-2006, 10:38 PM
No, I'm a Christian. That is why I can say with both certainty & authority that you are not.


Well, you see, this is where you are mistaken. Real Christians do not profess to speak for what is in the heart of their fellow man, that is reserved for God alone, and it is considered a sin to pass judgment on others. A true Christian would know and understand this, and you apparently don't. Issue settled, you can't very well be a Christian, unless you are a Christian committing a sin. I'll let God decide.

Beefy
12-07-2006, 11:07 PM
Well, you see, this is where you are mistaken. Real Christians do not profess to speak for what is in the heart of their fellow man, that is reserved for God alone, and it is considered a sin to pass judgment on others. A true Christian would know and understand this, and you apparently don't. Issue settled, you can't very well be a Christian, unless you are a Christian committing a sin. I'll let God decide.

This is a judgement in and of itself.

Again, Pot meet Kettle.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 01:15 AM
This is a judgement in and of itself.

Again, Pot meet Kettle.

No, not really. I was very careful to say, I would leave that up to God. It's not 'passing judgement' when you make an honest evaluation of something. Lummox was passing judgement by determining my Christianity, I am not passing judgement in recognizing he did that. I'm also not passing judgement by saying that it's wrong to pass judgement, God says that, I am just reiterating his word on the subject. I never stated that Lummox wasn't a Christian, just that real Christians know that passing judgement is wrong. If he is a Christian, he is intentionally doing something completely contradictory to Christianity, and he knows is wrong, that isn't passing judgement, that is a valid assessment of the situation, there is a huge difference.

Onceler
12-08-2006, 07:07 AM
Dixie...can you juggle while you're tapdancing, also?

"Passing judgment" is what you do, Dixie. It's pretty much ALL you do.

By your own definition of Christian (which is weird & false), you're not a Christian.

maineman
12-08-2006, 07:16 AM
Dixie....you are a blowhard gadfly...everything you have ever written is designed to elicit heat while shedding no light. You have no desire whatsoever to engage in any discussion about the issues....you only want to flame people with your long winded rants.... and your cop out about not DOING anything that Jesus told you to do is pretty pathetic. Go read the great commandment. Do you honestly think that anyone who followed that commandment would have supported the invasion of Iraq, or the torture of detainees or "shock and awe"? Jesus told you that was the FIRST commandment...it supercedes ANY of the Old Testament babble that you hang you hat on...and it COMMANDS you to be proactive in searching for peace and love in this world.... and NO ONE who claims to love Jesus would EVER so cavelierly ignore his FIRST AND GREATEST COMMANDMENT as you do.

maineman
12-08-2006, 07:17 AM
the mere use of words like "pinhead" is derrogatory and judgmental

Onceler
12-08-2006, 07:30 AM
The entire 1st post is judgmental..."Muslims disavow Christianity, and are intolerant of it completely, just as the liberal scum who want to take prayer out of school and God out of the public square"...

Dixie has no self-awareness whatsoever.

maineman
12-08-2006, 07:32 AM
again....he never attempts to utilize any.... he is all about heat and controvery and emotion....

Cypress
12-08-2006, 07:48 AM
So, now you speak for when Christ would shit? What exactly are Christians doing in His name, that you think Jesus would be upset with? This is another one of your typical slaps at something, with no real basis or reason. You do not speak for Christ, and you have no idea of what Jesus would or wouldn't be happy with or upset about, were he here on Earth today.

I can't speak for other religions, but in Christianity, there is no 'hocus pocus'. The doctrine followed by Christians, is 2,000 years old, and consistently brings the same message through history. Being a Christian is as simple as accepting Christ as your personal savior, and the Son of God. There is no hocus pocus to that, if you truly believe it, you are promised everlasting life.

It's always good to hear from a lost soul, on what they think Jesus would say or do, but your responses are incredibly transparent and lacking substance. I doubt many Christians are going to read your post, and suddenly realize you are right about religion, and forsake their faith in God, so I wonder why you go to the trouble? From my perspective, it is merely lashing out in anger at God, for whatever reasons you must have. I will pray for you, and I hope you do find salvation someday.


"It's always good to hear from a lost soul, on what they think Jesus would say or do, but your responses are incredibly transparent and lacking substance."


Is this something Jesus would SAY or do?



DIXIE, June 2005: “Since the (2004) election, the rhetoric has continued, the conspiracy theories have increased, the hate and vile has been turned up a notch, and the Democratic leadership is literally aiding and abetting the enemy with its blather!…”

I am going to tell you something Liberals, and you need to take heed... this country is getting sick and tired of this shit, and we are not going to just keep taking it. If you want to push it to the very end, you will find yourself looking down the barrel of an AK-47 one day, because Americans will eventually take this matter into their own hands.

When you have pushed it to that point, there will be no turning back, you won't be able to go on TV with a non-appologetic statement and make it all go away anymore. It will be far too late for you to "get along" with us, we will have had our fill of your shit, and you will be defeated just like we defeated alQaeda and the Taliban! Don't read this as a threat, read it as the reality of what is going to happen if you don't stop assisting the enemy and trying to destroy America in your zeal to shame Bush! We had an election, and WE SPOKE! You BETTER LISTEN!…..

(Bush) ought to call out the National Guard and round you fucktards up and send YOU to Gitmo! You are costing us lives, and in your blind ignorance, you refuse to shut your piehole and stop trying to turn this into Vietnam all over again! In my opinion, you are as bad as AlJazerah, or the vermin from France who support the maggots! You don't want us to WIN this war, and you're fucking bound and determined to prevent it if you can! You've made it all about Bush, and virtually ANYTHING INCLUDING TREASON is justified to you, if it means smearing him! What a bunch of pathetic scum!….



http://fullpolitics.com/viewthread.php?tid=2907#pid72437

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 07:58 AM
From the 1st time I saw Dixie post, I realized that he truly exemplified the old adage "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing." On this thread, as soon as I read "I've been doing a little research on the Muslim faith," I knew we were in for trouble. Emphasis on the word "little" in that sentence.

And Dixie, you are no more a Christian than I am a Muslim. If Christ were alive today & you didn't recognize him, you'd call him a pinhead & try to convince him that invading Iraq was the right decision...

Dix learned all his Muslim knowledge from rush and coulter ;)

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 08:01 AM
The entire 1st post is judgmental..."Muslims disavow Christianity, and are intolerant of it completely, just as the liberal scum who want to take prayer out of school and God out of the public square"...

Dixie has no self-awareness whatsoever.

I think Dix has said the same thing before, he just replaced Muslim with Liberal ;)
To the neo's one size fits all for those who disagree with them.

It is about as complex of a resoloution as they can handle.
Dix, I quit cut and paste mentality in first or second grade.

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 08:03 AM
This is a judgement in and of itself.

Again, Pot meet Kettle.

Yeah, I let god decide how much money he wants me to give him. So far he has asked for nothing....

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 08:18 AM
Dixie, you are completely missing the point.

Religion itself is for idiots. Anyone who doesn't have the mental and moral strength to cope with the nihilistic reality of existence acts pretty much like a child.

Islam is just one amongst many options for these scared little children to find soma.

Arabic, however, is a fascinating language.

as salaam alay kum!

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 08:21 AM
A true Christian would know and understand this, and you apparently don't.

Ah, the 'No True Scotsman' defense.

No true Christian would act barbarically.

But Christians in Africa hack off Muslims arms....

Ah, but they're not true Christians...

LOL...

al hamdu lil-laah!

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 08:31 AM
I was wondering why you had not spoken up on this thread yet AnyOld.

I am still waiting on God to ask me for money, and where to send it...
Although I still have trouble figuring out why someone like God would need money, but then he does us substandard paving stones in heaven ;)

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 08:59 AM
Hey USC!

Been a bit busy lately...

God is a very insecure individual, who requires his creations worship him. Annoy him and he'll put you through hell....

He sounds like my ex girlfriend!

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 09:03 AM
Yeah , I never understood why an all powerful God would need the worship of puny humans.

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 09:18 AM
Yeah , I never understood why an all powerful God would need the worship of puny humans.

Insecurity... small penis probably... :)

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 09:43 AM
Actually I think it is like dixie's predictions. You have to look at it in a mirror while hanging upside down to decipher it.
Humans (most of them) need to worship something, God, if such a being exists needs no worship. just my opinion though.

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 09:48 AM
Humans (most of them) need to worship something, God, if such a being exists needs no worship. just my opinion though.

Well, god is a human creation, so its obvious that we would transfer our little faults to our invented superman....

That's why god resembles a MEern local despot, like Saddam.....

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 09:54 AM
Yeah he did resemble Sadam, according to the old testament. The Ark was a WMD :)

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 10:12 AM
Yeah he did resemble Sadam, according to the old testament. The Ark was a WMD

Good job there's no oil in heaven, else we'd be shock and awing the pearly gates..... :)

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 10:17 AM
And he paves his streets with gold. that is far too soft and will not hold up very well.
hmm do I see some human influence here. It seems to me that god would need no gold either....

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 10:24 AM
And he paves his streets with gold. that is far too soft and will not hold up very well.
hmm do I see some human influence here. It seems to me that god would need no gold either....

Everything about god is anthropomorphic....

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 10:26 AM
Darn! where is my dictionary....

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 10:39 AM
Anthropomorphism is the transfering of human characteristics to non-human things, like dressing monkeys in dinner jackets.... :)

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 10:41 AM
You pinheads seem to be making all sorts of things up, and completely missing what I actually posted. God doesn't need your money or worship, and I never claimed he did. To become a Christian, you must accept Christ, that is the only requirement. I went out of my way to explain, you don't have to go to church, there is no threshold for amount of time or money you devote to God, there is no mandate that you sing in the choir or have communion. God doesn't care whether you worship him or obey him, he gives you free will to do as you please, and he isn't going to send you to hell if you don't do enough to please him. If you commit sins against God, and forsake his word, and die before you repent your sins, you will burn for eternity in hell. This is not MY judgement, it's what he says he will do, and I believe him.

Speaking of "judgement" it's important to note, there is a distinct difference between judging and evaluating. In a court, there is a difference between what the jury does, and what the judge does, this illustrates the difference between objective evaluation of the facts, and actual judgement ruled. There is also a distinct difference between judging a persons character, and judging a persons heart and soul. God doesn't prohibit us from judging character, he actually mandates that we do so, he just forbids us from judging a persons soul, that's his job.

I challenge Prissy, or any of the rest of you pinheads, to find where I have ever determined that someone who says they are Christian are not Christian. I can't judge this, no matter how much I might suspect it or think it, I can't judge it, and I don't. I'll let God make that call, it's not up to me.

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 10:43 AM
Anthropomorphism is the transfering of human characteristics to non-human things, like dressing monkeys in dinner jackets.... :)

Ohh so Bush is one of those then ;)

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 10:50 AM
I challenge Prissy, or any of the rest of you pinheads, to find where I have ever determined that someone who says they are Christian are not Christian.


A true Christian would know and understand this, and you apparently don't.

Ahem....

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 10:51 AM
This is not MY judgement, it's what he says he will do, and I believe him.

Yeah, you'd better be a good boy else your Saddam-in-the-sky will be pissed off with you....

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 10:54 AM
And he paves his streets with gold. that is far too soft and will not hold up very well.
hmm do I see some human influence here. It seems to me that god would need no gold either....

Heaven is not a physical place, so why do you assume physical properties exist in a non-physical place? Christians through the years, have found ways to illustrate what heaven might look like, to attempt to convey a worldly picture of the Kingdom of Heaven. 'Streets of gold' is just a way to do this, in a way that mortal humans can comprehend. We simply can't comprehend the perfection of Heaven, it's beyond anything we understand in this physical world, there is nothing that can compare or describe something we simply can't comprehend.

As for your idiocy about the properties of gold being too soft for a road, it is substantially harder than asphalt. Since riches and wealth will mean absolutely nothing in the Kingdom of Heaven, it makes sense that gold would be used for something as trivial as paving the streets.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 11:00 AM
A true Christian would know and understand this, and you apparently don't.

Hmm... trying to see where I said he wasn't a Christian here... doesn't seem to say that... it seems to say that he apparently doesn't understand something a true Christian should understand. That appears to be a valid observation, not a judgement. You'll also find, I conclude the thought with the caveat, I'll let God decide. This seems to indicate, I make no judgement at all, and will leave that up to God. I think you need to find what I asked you to find, and stop trying to twist things around to fit your point.

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 11:03 AM
I thought we were created from giant snail snot ???

Slowness is next to godliness, Salt is satan.

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 11:05 AM
Hmm... trying to see where I said he wasn't a Christian here...

I apologise. You stated that he was a fake christian, rather than a true christian, which, according to your definition, would know such things.....

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 11:08 AM
IMHO, true Christians try their best to live their lives in a christlike style(the definition of Christian). The rest are a muddled mixture of jewish and Christian.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 11:16 AM
This is not MY judgement, it's what he says he will do, and I believe him.

Yeah, you'd better be a good boy else your Saddam-in-the-sky will be pissed off with you....


Arnold, I am sorry for whatever happened in your life to cause such bitter hatred for God, and I hope that you will someday find resolution for what is troubling you. If you actually read what I posted, I clearly said that God doesn't get pissed off at you, that's not why you are sent to eternal damnation. Forsaking God, as you are doing now, and committing sins against God, without ever repenting for these things, will result in your eternal damnation, according to God. I will let him decide if you meet that criteria, I am to only worry about me. God also gives you the free will to ignore this and do as you please, it's entirely up to you, no one can make you accept God.

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 11:23 AM
Arnold, I am sorry for whatever happened in your life to cause such bitter hatred for God, and I hope that you will someday find resolution for what is troubling you.

lol Dixie, why would I have a bitter hatred for something that doesn't exist? I am able to deal with the nihilistic reality of existence, and don't need to invent invisible friends to help me cope...

However, back to the original point, the Abrahamic notion of god does resemble a MEern tinpot dictator, if you agree with him, you live in luxury under his protection, if you disgree, you are damned to torture....

Sounds like Saddam to me.....

And they both have facial hair.....

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 11:24 AM
Hmm... trying to see where I said he wasn't a Christian here...

I apologise. You stated that he was a fake christian, rather than a true christian, which, according to your definition, would know such things.....


No, I never used the word "fake" and didn't indicate he was anything, I don't know what he truly is, and that is something he and God can work out. I made an observation, based on what I know as a Christian myself. You seem to have a problem comprehending my words, and I don't understand, I am not saying things that aren't there, I am not using words that you seem to think I am, and I don't mean what you seem to want to think I mean. I honestly don't know how to converse with someone who reads and sees things that aren't there, and simply refuses to acknowledge what is there.

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 11:25 AM
No, I never used the word "fake" and didn't indicate he was anything,

What is the opposite of true?

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 11:31 AM
Arnold, I am sorry for whatever happened in your life to cause such bitter hatred for God, and I hope that you will someday find resolution for what is troubling you.

lol Dixie, why would I have a bitter hatred for something that doesn't exist? I am able to deal with the nihilistic reality of existence, and don't need to invent invisible friends to help me cope...

However, back to the original point, the Abrahamic notion of god does resemble a MEern tinpot dictator, if you agree with him, you live in luxury under his protection, if you disgree, you are damned to torture....

Sounds like Saddam to me.....

And they both have facial hair.....


I understand you don't want to talk about what drove you away from God. Most people don't want to face that, and it is probably very painful for you. God doesn't promise luxury, just eternal life. He doesn't care if you agree with him or not, he gives you free will to do as you please. If you disavow him, forsake him, and do things against his will, you will burn for eternity in hell, but it's entirely up to you. And he doesn't have facial hair, because he is not a physical entity, he is a spirit, without physical properties.

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 11:37 AM
I understand you don't want to talk about what drove you away from God.

Same thing that 'drove' me away from Santa. I acquired the ability to recognise fiction and the capability to deal with reality.

Nothing more traumatic than that... Was it traumatic when you found out Santa didn't exist?

He doesn't care if you agree with him or not, he gives you free will to do as you please. If you disavow him, forsake him, and do things against his will, you will burn for eternity in hell, but it's entirely up to you.

So, he doesn't care if you agree or not... but if you fuck with him, he'll torture you for eternity....

You're not making him sound any less like Saddam.....

And he doesn't have facial hair, because he is not a physical entity, he is a spirit, without physical properties.

If he's a spirit (a yet-to-be defined term), how do you know that he doesn't have facial hair?

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 11:44 AM
Spirits don't have facial hair ?
Now how would we know that ?

It is sort of strange that the "holy trinity" encompasses several aspects of superstition...

How is religion any different from superstition anyway ?

maineman
12-08-2006, 11:47 AM
I love it how Dixie's view of Christianity allows him to ignore all the teachings of Christ.

No doubt, when Dixie arrives in Hell, he will be utterly surprised.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 11:48 AM
No, I never used the word "fake" and didn't indicate he was anything,

What is the opposite of true?

The opposite of 'true' is 'false'. This doesn't mean I said something I didn't say.

A true Christian would know and understand this, and you apparently don't.

This is an observation, a statement of fact, based on the comment I was responding to. It doesn't make any judgemental determination whatsoever. It leaves open, many possibilities, the person could have been mistaken, the person could not be a true Christian, the person could be a true Christian, but fail to understand Christianity, the person could be a fake Christian, the person could be a true Christian who doesn't know how to articulate his thoughts in a Christian way, or is confused about his responsibility as a Christian, the person could not be a Christian at all, and is just trying to convince us that they are. The person could also be a disciple of God, sent here to tell me I am not a Christian. So, there are many possibilities left open by my observation, and no judgement was made, as to what is the truth, only he and God know this, and it's not for me to judge.

A true Christian, someone who follows the word of God, fully understands and realizes, you can't make determinations on what is or isn't in a persons heart and soul, and doing so is forbidden by God, as it is casting judgement. I merely pointed this out, becasue it was apparent he didn't understand this, and that is not casting judgement on his heart and soul.

AnyOldIron
12-08-2006, 11:52 AM
The opposite of 'true' is 'false'. This doesn't mean I said something I didn't say.

A true Christian would know and understand this, and you apparently don't.

This is an observation, a statement of fact, based on the comment I was responding to.

So, the opposite of true is false, you stated that a true christian would understand, and that (sic) you don't. Ergo, you are not a true christian, ergo you are a false christian....

Sounds like a judgement call to me.....

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 12:01 PM
Same thing that 'drove' me away from Santa. I acquired the ability to recognise fiction and the capability to deal with reality.

Nothing more traumatic than that... Was it traumatic when you found out Santa didn't exist?

You are among about 5% of the world population who doesn't believe in any kind of afterlife or spirituality in any aspect. The other 95% of us disagree with your opinion that it's all fictional. We've debated this in threads before, and I have presented mounds of evidence to support belief in something greater than ourselves. If you want to continue to deny something that 95% of us believe in, you are free to do that, but it doesn't make you right.

He doesn't care if you agree with him or not, he gives you free will to do as you please. If you disavow him, forsake him, and do things against his will, you will burn for eternity in hell, but it's entirely up to you.

So, he doesn't care if you agree or not... but if you fuck with him, he'll torture you for eternity....

You're not making him sound any less like Saddam.....

No, he will not torture you, he doesn't care what you decide to do, it's entirely up to you. He will not let you into the Kingdom of Heaven if you don't believe it, or he exists. If you aren't going to Heaven, you only have one other destination available, that was your choice, not His.

And he doesn't have facial hair, because he is not a physical entity, he is a spirit, without physical properties.

If he's a spirit (a yet-to-be defined term), how do you know that he doesn't have facial hair?

Because hair is a physical attribute, and is not applicable to spiritual entities. That's how I know. And "spirit" is defined, it means non-physical, or not of the physical world.

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 12:06 PM
Dixie, if you think you can win a debate in logic with Anyold... well you might as well just pack up your Barbie dolls and go home :)

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 12:07 PM
The opposite of 'true' is 'false'. This doesn't mean I said something I didn't say.

A true Christian would know and understand this, and you apparently don't.

This is an observation, a statement of fact, based on the comment I was responding to.

So, the opposite of true is false, you stated that a true christian would understand, and that (sic) you don't. Ergo, you are not a true christian, ergo you are a false christian....

Sounds like a judgement call to me.....

I said "apparently" you don't, there is a difference. I don't presume to know what is in his heart and what he really believes, I am simply saying, based on his comment, that he apparently doesn't know something he should know, if what he is saying is true. Yes, it's a judgement of sorts, I'm allowed to judge his words and deeds, but not on what is in his heart and soul, that isn't my business, and I made that very clear.

You can "ERGO" all you like, that's what I meant by twisting my words, you can't be objectively honest about what I actually said, you have to twist and mangle my words to fit your premise.

maineman
12-08-2006, 12:16 PM
Last Sunday I served Communion...last night was the board of deacon's meeting... tonight was choir practice...this Sunday I read the New Testament reading and my family lights the advent candle. I am a devout Christian and am insulted by your rantings that would suggest otherwise.

I don't care what rituals you performed last week or any other week. I never said that you weren't a Christian, just that the Muslim faith is custom-built for Pinhead consumption. It's almost as if, pinheads made a religion!

then please explain...if I am, indeed, a "pinhead" by your definition, why do I not "consume" Islam? I don't believe in the preachings of Muhammed. I am not a muslim. Unlike you, however, I do not view Islam as the "religion of the devil" or a faith practiced only by violent uncivilized people. They simply practice a different religion than I do.

Say... given the fact that Zarqawi has been dead for some time now, shouldn't that insurgency be coming to an end any day now as you predicted?

Yeah, I guess this dispells the liberal myth about going after Osama, huh? After all, if we had gotten Osama, it wouldn't have done a thing to alQaeda, as we can now see clearly with Zarqawi. It's funny how some things that happen, fuck up other things that you claim should happen.


Are you equating the significance of Zarqawi - a man who only became a member of Al Qaeda after our invasion of Iraq - with Osama bin Laden? The things that you seem to "see" with clarity are nothing but the fictional musings of a moronic gadfly
typical of your type of Christian who don't feel the need to DO anything...and think that all you have to do is profess Jesus as Lord on your deathbed and off you go to heaven....


Typical of a judgemental hypocrite destined to burn forever in hell, because you couldn't obey God and not judge the heart of your fellow man. You don't have a clue as to what "kind of Christian" I am, and you shouldn't go around claiming you do, instead, you should worry about your own Christianity, and by the way, that doesn't include boasting about what you've done to appear to be a good Christian, none of that counts for squat.

I am not "boasting" about anything. Merely recounting my actions that back up my assertion that I am a Christian who lives my faith as opposed to one who ignores the teachings of Christ and merely PROFESSES to be a Christian...like you

I never said you need only profess Christ on your deathbed, but Christianity is a religion of acceptance, you do have to accept Jesus as your personal savior, and from my understanding, that is the only required action needed to get into heaven. If you truly profess Jesus as Lord, you will want to do many other things in his honor, but it is not required of you, and will not keep you from getting to heaven if you don't. There is no predetermined percentage of times you have to go to church, you don't have to sing in the choir, you don't have to have communion or read scriptures, the only thing you HAVE to do, is accept Christ as your personal savior.

Unlike you, as a Christian, I feel compelled to follow the teachings of Christ. I cannot imagine the hypocrisy it would take to completely and utterly and willfully ignore the FIRST AND GREATEST COMMANDMENT of Jesus while simultaneously proclaiming that you "love" Him.

I happen to believe in grace but also believe that Jesus preached His gospel for a reason - that He wanted us to LIVE our lives a certain way

Right! And if you are truly a born-again Christian, you will be frustrated if you DON'T get to do those things, because you love the Lord, and it's part of following his word. This doesn't mean God expects you to do these things to get to heaven, nor does it mean you have to. By the way, Jesus wanted you to live your life without judgement or prejudice of others, and you're not doing a very good job of that.

again...the hypocrisy is overwhelming. To proclaim that you love the Lord and continue to willfully ignore His primary commandment to His followers is amazing!

To Christians who believe that salvation comes from DOING God's work, that is pretty strong and clear guidance.... and when we invade countries and kill people with shock and awe and rape them and murder them and torture them, we are NOT following the very clear instructions from Jesus.

And when we turn our backs to a tyrant dictator who is raping and murdering innocent people, we are forsaking God and his will, as well as forsaking the message of Jesus Christ.

I never suggested, nor did any democrat that I know, that we "turn our back" on Saddam. To ignore such tyranny would definitely be to ignore the teachings of Jesus. I would suggest that unleashing shock and awe on the people of Iraq, that torturing innocent Iraqis, that presiding over the death and destruction of the past three years, that simultaneously ignoring the plight of American citizens devastated by hurricaines, that ignoring the tyranny of Kim Jong Il, that ignoring the tyranny in Communist China or in Darfur is most definitely forsaking God's will as well as forsaking the message of Jesus.

YOur kind of Christian turns my stomach...

I'm sure God is proud of you for judging me yet again in this single post. I think he intended on Maineman being the determiner of who is the right type of Christian and who isn't, and he just forgot to tell the rest of us or put that in the Bible.

do you really think that God does not want me to be sickened by hypocrisy and fawning self righteous rectitude? And again... I qouted you a new testament biblical verse... a verse that most true Christians I KNOW consider to be the most important single verse in the entire book.... and it is a verse that you willfully, and blythely ignore. Jesus told his followers what he expected of them what He commanded them to do in His name.... it would seem that you just forgot to read it....

but if you showed up in line at our soup kitchen, I would serve you and not turn you away for ANY reason.

Even after I told them what a two-faced hypocritical fraud you are?

absolutely. If you were hungry, I would feed you. "If you love me, feed my lambs" I would certainly not expect any civility from you, but you could always expect a meal from me

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 12:18 PM
Dixie, if you think you can win a debate in logic with Anyold... well you might as well just pack up your Barbie dolls and go home :)

Uscitizen, I would be a wealthy man if I had a dime for every time a pinhead chimed in with something designed to attack me personally, and didn't pertain to the subject of debate whatsoever. I appreciate your lame attempts to throw stones at me, and attack me personally, I understand how difficult it must be to try and argue a point you can't really argue, but honestly, this childish and petty juvenile behavior is not going to further the debate in any way, and actually does more to discredit you and render your opinions invalid and irrelevant.

Arnold doesn't need any cheerleaders, and I'm confident he can handle an adult discussion with me, as he has done so in the past. He really doesn't need for you to come in and try to bolster his failing argument, with nothing more than 3rd-grade snipes and bluster. If you can think of something intelligent to contribute, I certainly wish you would, or just put me back on ignore and return to your routine posting of death tolls in Iraq and calls for complete withdrawal and impeachment. You are vastly better at finding liberal propaganda to cut and paste, so it's best you stick to that and leave the heavy intellectual debate to those of us who can actually do it.

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 12:23 PM
I am sure glad you appreciate me slammming you. I would hate to think that I was actually causing you distress.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 12:52 PM
I don't believe in the preachings of Muhammed. I am not a muslim. Unlike you, however, I do not view Islam as the "religion of the devil" or a faith practiced only by violent uncivilized people.

See, I don't know what you believe, only you and God know that. I can only go by what you claim to believe, and I don't know from one day to the next, if you are telling me the truth or lying through your teeth, you tend to do both. I merely made some observations about the Muslim religion and its close relationship to Liberalism. I've yet to see any of those observations dispelled or proven inaccurate, although I see a lot of blustering and refutiating rhetoric.

Are you equating the significance of Zarqawi - a man who only became a member of Al Qaeda after our invasion of Iraq - with Osama bin Laden?

I'm equating the significance of ANY alQaeda leader, with regard to the overall threat of Islamofascism. Capturing OBL would be no more significant in defeating alQaeda, than killing Zarqawi. The 'movement' would still carry on, and taking out a single person is never going to end it.

Unlike you, as a Christian, I feel compelled to follow the teachings of Christ.

Me too, and I don't know where you conclude otherwise. I think we might have a difference of opinion with regard to how we are to follow the teachings of Christ, though.

I never suggested, nor did any democrat that I know, that we "turn our back" on Saddam. To ignore such tyranny would definitely be to ignore the teachings of Jesus.

Well I am glad to know you finally understand why we had to do something about Saddam. But you and your fellow Democrats most certainly have advocated "turning your back" on Saddam's atrocities. Do you not recall all the comments about how "Saddam was contained!"? Do you not recall all your protests of us barging into a soverign country, invading, conquering and occupying it? Your alternative to this would have been to ignore what Saddam was doing and allow it to continue on. So, yes, you did advocate turning a blind eye to what Saddam was doing.

do you really think that God does not want me to be sickened by hypocrisy and fawning self righteous rectitude?

No, God doesn't want you to be sickened by anything. He particulary doesn't want you to cast your personal judgement on others or their faith, or do his job for him. In fact, he is very clear about the ramifications of doing this.

Jesus told his followers what he expected of them what He commanded them to do in His....

I know what Jesus told his followers, and I haven't ignored it at all. He also said to not ever be ashamed of God, to stand up for God and your faith and never disavow it, even in your darkest hour. When others are tearing God down, trying to remove his name from the public square, we are to stand up for our faith and belief in God and not forsake him. When some tyrant is murdering God's innocent children, we are to stand with them and have faith in God. When we see injustices, we are to speak out against them in the name of God. When we are challenged on our beliefs, we are supposed to profess our faith even more, and even if it means our own death, we should go to our graves refusing to denounce God.

maineman
12-08-2006, 01:11 PM
I don't believe in the preachings of Muhammed. I am not a muslim. Unlike you, however, I do not view Islam as the "religion of the devil" or a faith practiced only by violent uncivilized people.

See, I don't know what you believe, only you and God know that. I can only go by what you claim to believe, and I don't know from one day to the next, if you are telling me the truth or lying through your teeth, you tend to do both. I merely made some observations about the Muslim religion and its close relationship to Liberalism. I've yet to see any of those observations dispelled or proven inaccurate, although I see a lot of blustering and refutiating rhetoric.

now..THAT is a lie. I do not tell lies. I dare you to show me one lie or have the decency to retract that statement. The muslim religion has absolutely no "relationship" with liberalism. As I stated earlier, your "observations" have a great deal to do with heat and controversy and little to do with illumination or discovery. that is why you are a gadfly

Are you equating the significance of Zarqawi - a man who only became a member of Al Qaeda after our invasion of Iraq - with Osama bin Laden?

I'm equating the significance of ANY alQaeda leader, with regard to the overall threat of Islamofascism. Capturing OBL would be no more significant in defeating alQaeda, than killing Zarqawi. The 'movement' would still carry on, and taking out a single person is never going to end it.

that is your opinion. I happen to believe that capturing Osama would be infinitely more significant than killing zarqawi. The "movement" might very well carry on, but the figurehead would be eliminated and his capture would do immeasurable good for American morale.

Unlike you, as a Christian, I feel compelled to follow the teachings of Christ.

Me too, and I don't know where you conclude otherwise. I think we might have a difference of opinion with regard to how we are to follow the teachings of Christ, though.

you willfully ignore the first and greatest commandment. We obviously have a difference of opinion as to its importance. Unlike you, when Jesus commands me to do something, I try really hard not to willfully ignore Him

I never suggested, nor did any democrat that I know, that we "turn our back" on Saddam. To ignore such tyranny would definitely be to ignore the teachings of Jesus.

Well I am glad to know you finally understand why we had to do something about Saddam. But you and your fellow Democrats most certainly have advocated "turning your back" on Saddam's atrocities. Do you not recall all the comments about how "Saddam was contained!"? Do you not recall all your protests of us barging into a soverign country, invading, conquering and occupying it? Your alternative to this would have been to ignore what Saddam was doing and allow it to continue on. So, yes, you did advocate turning a blind eye to what Saddam was doing.

turning a blind eye is not the only alternative to invasion, conquest, occupation, torture and mass killing. I think there were many alternatives that would have allowed us to remain engaged in and concerned with the region shy of starting a war in it

do you really think that God does not want me to be sickened by hypocrisy and fawning self righteous rectitude?

No, God doesn't want you to be sickened by anything. He particulary doesn't want you to cast your personal judgement on others or their faith, or do his job for him. In fact, he is very clear about the ramifications of doing this.

I am not JUDGING you Dixie....I am merely "observing" you. I make an observation concerning your hypocrisy based upon the things that you say.

Jesus told his followers what he expected of them what He commanded them to do in His....

I know what Jesus told his followers, and I haven't ignored it at all. He also said to not ever be ashamed of God, to stand up for God and your faith and never disavow it, even in your darkest hour. When others are tearing God down, trying to remove his name from the public square, we are to stand up for our faith and belief in God and not forsake him. When some tyrant is murdering God's innocent children, we are to stand with them and have faith in God. When we see injustices, we are to speak out against them in the name of God. When we are challenged on our beliefs, we are supposed to profess our faith even more, and even if it means our own death, we should go to our graves refusing to denounce God.

why are you not forcefully advocating the use of American military might to stop the other tyrants of the world? WHy are you not forcefully advocating the invasion, conquest and occupation of Iran and Syria and North Korea and China and Somalia and all the other places where tyranny reigns? Why do you ignore Jesus when He told you what His most important commandment was?

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 02:50 PM
now..THAT is a lie. I do not tell lies. I dare you to show me one lie or have the decency to retract that statement. The muslim religion has absolutely no "relationship" with liberalism. As I stated earlier, your "observations" have a great deal to do with heat and controversy and little to do with illumination or discovery. that is why you are a gadfly

Yes, you tell lies all the time. You maintain that you always try to speak in a manner in which God would approve, and that isn't the case, as we both know from past experiences. I promised not to bring the past up, so I can't really present you with things you have said that contradict your lie that you always speak in a manner consistent with Jesus' teachings. As for the relation between Islam and Liberalism, I think I made valid points that have yet to be specifically addressed in any way, so until that happens, I don't think you can just proclaim them invalid. That's not how debate works. Your opinion is something you are entitled to, and I will not deny you that, but it doesn't make you right and me wrong.

I happen to believe that capturing Osama would be infinitely more significant than killing zarqawi. The "movement" might very well carry on, but the figurehead would be eliminated and his capture would do immeasurable good for American morale.

And that is fine as well, you are entitled to this opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. We both agree, eliminating one single man is not going to eliminate the radical Islamofascist movement, that is the point that needs to be established and understood here, and the only one I made.

you willfully ignore the first and greatest commandment. We obviously have a difference of opinion as to its importance. Unlike you, when Jesus commands me to do something, I try really hard not to willfully ignore Him

I have never ignored any commandment, let alone the greatest and first. We have a difference of opinion as to what the commandment means, and how to obey it, but that doesn't mean you are abiding by it, and I am ignoring it, it means we have a difference of opinion. Seems to me, if you support abortion, you are being contradictory to what Jesus commands, but you've managed to somehow justify your position. Seems to me, if you oppose eliminating a tyrant who is killing innocent children of God, you are ignoring what Jesus taught as well, but again, you've managed to justify your position. Mostly what you do, is take bits and pieces of what Jesus said, and apply them where you need to, and disregard the rest. It's my understanding, this isn't how it's supposed to work, we are supposed to take it all, not just the parts we want to apply.

turning a blind eye is not the only alternative to invasion, conquest, occupation, torture and mass killing. I think there were many alternatives that would have allowed us to remain engaged in and concerned with the region shy of starting a war in it

Well, the problem is, Jesus didn't say that we were to just be "concerned" with it, we are supposed to take action and do whatever we can. That's exactly what we did, and you opposed it. You've offered no alternative here, you claim we had other alternatives, but nothing you can present is any better than what we did to eliminate Saddam. In any event, we can't go back and change what we did, and you seem to think this is possible now. Would Jesus prefer that we leave Iraq and allow radical nuts to take over, oppress the people, kill innocent children of God, and wipe out the Jews? Or would Jesus prefer we stand for what is right in the eyes of God, and help protect innocent human life? I have my opinion, and you have yours, and I can accept that without casting judgement on your Christianity or soul.


I am not JUDGING you Dixie....I am merely "observing" you. I make an observation concerning your hypocrisy based upon the things that you say.

"typical of your type of Christian who don't feel the need to DO anything..."
"YOur kind of Christian turns my stomach..."
"NO ONE who claims to love Jesus would EVER so cavelierly ignore his FIRST AND GREATEST COMMANDMENT as you do."
"No doubt, when Dixie arrives in Hell, he will be utterly surprised."
"Unlike you, as a Christian, I feel compelled to follow the teachings of Christ."

Maine, this certainly sounds as if you are judging my faith and what kind of Christian I am.

why are you not forcefully advocating the use of American military might to stop the other tyrants of the world?

I'm all for it, but I don't think we can actually take on the entire world in one day. I believe we can advocate freedom and democracy, and if we have the opportunity to defend it, we should.

WHy are you not forcefully advocating the invasion, conquest and occupation of Iran and Syria and North Korea and China and Somalia and all the other places where tyranny reigns?

Because it's not practical to do so, and in some cases, might not even be necessary.

Why do you ignore Jesus when He told you what His most important commandment was?

Jesus didn't say that any one commandment was more important than the others, or that the others can be disregarded as long as you follow the greatest one. The commandment is to love God, and I do. The other commandment is to love thy neighbor, and I do. I have no hatred for anyone, including George W. Bush or you, or even Saddam Hussein. Now, I would certainly describe the vitriol and bitterness expressed by you, towards Bush & company, as "hate" in its purest form. I'm not making a judgement of what is truly in your heart, rather a judgement of what you've articulated on this very board, and how I perceive it as a Christian. I'll let God decide if you followed his greatest commandment with regard to Bush.... maybe he will listen to your spin and you can fool him into believing your lies? If not, I'm sure God will cut you some slack, since you served for a quarter century in the Navy and administered communion at your church.

Jarod
12-08-2006, 02:57 PM
I've been doing a little research on the Muslim faith, and I believe I am starting to understand why so many pinheads seem to almost side with the Muslims against the civilized world. It's because Islam is the Religion of Pinheads! Yes, it's true! When you cut to the chase, and get right down to the meat and potatoes of what Islam is all about, it comports nicely with the mainstream liberal agenda.

First, there is the basic concept. Islam was founded on the principles of Mohammed, who routinely committed adultery on his wife, just as many great liberal leaders. The tenants of the faith are rooted somewhat in Christian belief, in other words, Mohammed 'triangulated' the ideals he wanted to use, and sold it as his own. Then there is the premise that Muslims are mandated to help the needy, poor, and downtrodden... not just help them by giving of themselves and their belongings, but helping them by literally taking and stealing from the rich and wealthy.

Digging deeper, we find that Muslims thrive on dividing people into sub-groups, and promoting discrimination based on those groups. It empowers them, to be able to classify people as "Infidels", just as the leftists will define people based on race or ethnicity, or even geographic locale. So, they have the same exact means of gaining power and influence, through dividing people against each other.

Muslims disavow Christianity, and are intolerant of it completely, just as the liberal scum who want to take prayer out of school and God out of the public square. They also believe they are doing the world a favor by spreading their message and forcing others to believe as they do, and any attempts to contradict this, is met with accusations of bigotry, racism, and prejudice.

Much like the Liberal Left, Muslims will consistently talk out of both sides of their mouth, they will maintain that Islam is a 'religion of peace' and at the same time, call for violence and jihad against those who disagree with them. Any injustice against a Muslim, is met with loud protest from other Muslims around the world, yet when a similar injustice falls upon a Christian or Jew, there is utter silence. We see this same double-standard with Liberals all the time. A conservative can merely be accused of something, and the liberals will find him guilty by default, but a liberal can be proven to have broken the law and committed crimes, and they will deny any wrong-doing ever happened.

It is amazing, when you compare Muslim radicals with Liberal radicals, how much their ideological traits are similar. I believe this is why we have so many pinheads who continue to inexplicably defend the radical Muslims. ....Birds of a Feather!



Funny because its the Christian Fundamentalists who are shooting Doctors and blowing up health care clinics here in the USA. It has always struck me how so called fundamentalists of any religen are so simular.

The Religous right is just a scaled down version of Al Queda!

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 03:06 PM
The Religous right is just a scaled down version of Al Queda!
//

Yep the same goal of world domination and a methodology of the end justifies the means.

Onceler
12-08-2006, 03:15 PM
Vitriol & bitterness....hate in its purest form...

You mean like this?

"If you want to push it to the very end, you will find yourself looking down the barrel of an AK-47 one day, because Americans will eventually take this matter into their own hands.

(Bush) ought to call out the National Guard and round you fucktards up and send YOU to Gitmo! You are costing us lives, and in your blind ignorance, you refuse to shut your piehole and stop trying to turn this into Vietnam all over again! In my opinion, you are as bad as AlJazerah, or the vermin from France who support the maggots! You don't want us to WIN this war, and you're fucking bound and determined to prevent it if you can! You've made it all about Bush, and virtually ANYTHING INCLUDING TREASON is justified to you, if it means smearing him! What a bunch of pathetic scum!…."

Kind of like that, Dix?

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 03:22 PM
LOL, good one Oncelor.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 03:29 PM
Funny because its the Christian Fundamentalists who are shooting Doctors and blowing up health care clinics here in the USA. It has always struck me how so called fundamentalists of any religen are so simular.

The Religous right is just a scaled down version of Al Queda!

Well you are a retarded idiot, so it makes sense that you would think like this!
The RR is not blowing up anything, there are a few wacko nuts who claim to represent Christian belief, who have done these things, and the church has always strongly condemned them. (Funny, I don't recall seeing many Muslims condemning the sawing off of peoples heads in the name of Allah.)

The RR is nothing at all like the radical Islamofascists. You can try to make this argument all you like, it fails the test of truth and light. The RR doesn't preach intolerance of Jews and Infidels, or anyone else. The RR doesn't advocate violence in the name of religion, and never has, as this is contradictory to the very principles and teachings of Christ. The RR doesn't seek to establish a Christian Caliphate from Canada to the tip of South America, and never has. When Jerry Falwell starts televising be-headings of homosexuals, I'll be willing to accept the RR is like the Islamofascists. Until then, you are merely promoting a lie and distortion of reality that doesn't exist, and you have given no basis for.

Gaffer
12-08-2006, 05:06 PM
Funny because its the Christian Fundamentalists who are shooting Doctors and blowing up health care clinics here in the USA. It has always struck me how so called fundamentalists of any religen are so simular.

The Religous right is just a scaled down version of Al Queda!

Could you point to a recent occurance of such things?

Cypress
12-08-2006, 05:17 PM
Could you point to a recent occurance of such things?

American Christians have been responsible for only a handfull of bombings, murder, and terrorist attacks in this nation: mostly to do with abortion clinics and doctors. Oh, and the Atlanta Olympics bombing.

American muslims have been responsible for zero terrorist attacks in this nation, to my knowledge.

Foreign christian and muslim terrorists are much more violent. Lord's Army (christian) in central africa, and of course Al Qaeda (muslim) are prominent examples.

Battleborne
12-08-2006, 05:22 PM
Could you point to a recent occurance of such things?


Because one could count the number of incidents in the last twenty years on one hand...and the number of lost/injured lives on two hands...however I am sure he will now bring up Timothy McVeigh and his Oklahoma bombing incident and tie it to the religious right...albeit Timothy acted alone with the exception of his idiot friend! But alas the left always grasps for straws to compare Islam radicals with the religious right...go figure!

Damocles
12-08-2006, 05:24 PM
To be fair Eric Robert Rudolph was responsible for quite a few of them...

Battleborne
12-08-2006, 05:27 PM
To be fair Eric Robert Rudolph was responsible for quite a few of them...


I believe he was a misfit and attempted several but only accomplished maybe three minor attacks as compared with Islam radical attacks...apples and oranges!

Damocles
12-08-2006, 05:40 PM
I believe he was a misfit and attempted several but only accomplished maybe three minor attacks as compared with Islam radical attacks...apples and oranges!
Well, I was saying to be fair to that list... He listed things that Eric Rudolph did... I think he was pretty much responsible for most of his list.

Gaffer
12-08-2006, 05:46 PM
Yep, comparing a few rightwing so called christian nuts with islam is rediculous.

The libs continue to be appolgists for the islamist and support them in everyway they can. Then try to make comparisons like jarod did above.

islams coming to get you jarod. And it won't be some rightwing christian cutting your head off.

uscitizen
12-08-2006, 06:17 PM
All Ialamic people are not nuts.
Unless you consider all religiopus people nuts ?

Cypress
12-08-2006, 06:46 PM
Yep, comparing a few rightwing so called christian nuts with islam is rediculous.

The libs continue to be appolgists for the islamist and support them in everyway they can. Then try to make comparisons like jarod did above.

islams coming to get you jarod. And it won't be some rightwing christian cutting your head off.

It wasn't just Eric Rudolph and the "Christian Identity" cult:


NBC News: There were 1,700 acts of violence against abortion providers between 1977 and 1994, with four people killed in 1994 and one in 1993, according to statistics from the National Abortion Federation. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has logged 167 attacks against abortion clinics over the past 15 years.

In 1984, there were 18 bombings against abortion clinics. In 1993, there were 78 death threats aimed at clinic employees. And, in 1996, bombings, threats and harassment affected about one-third of U.S. abortion clinics.

http://www.msnbc.com/modules/clinics/


But, like I said, terrorism in this country by american christians has been very limited. Terrorism in this country by american muslims is non-existant, to my knowledge.

Terrorsim by foreign muslim and foreign christian terrorists is much wider spread and violent.

maineman
12-08-2006, 07:33 PM
[now..THAT is a lie. I do not tell lies. I dare you to show me one lie or have the decency to retract that statement. The muslim religion has absolutely no "relationship" with liberalism. As I stated earlier, your "observations" have a great deal to do with heat and controversy and little to do with illumination or discovery. that is why you are a gadfly

Yes, you tell lies all the time. You maintain that you always try to speak in a manner in which God would approve, and that isn't the case, as we both know from past experiences. I promised not to bring the past up, so I can't really present you with things you have said that contradict your lie that you always speak in a manner consistent with Jesus' teachings. As for the relation between Islam and Liberalism, I think I made valid points that have yet to be specifically addressed in any way, so until that happens, I don't think you can just proclaim them invalid. That's not how debate works. Your opinion is something you are entitled to, and I will not deny you that, but it doesn't make you right and me wrong.

I do try to speak in a manner which God would approve. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes you do too...sometimes you accuse me of things that you know are untrue and you know that God would not approve of..... now I suppose that you try to speak in a manner in which God would approve and I would never call you a liar because you were a human sinner. And you have made ridiculous points..... and because I don't care to waste my time in refuting them does not, by default, make them valid. As I said, you only care to generate heat, and not light



I happen to believe that capturing Osama would be infinitely more significant than killing zarqawi. The "movement" might very well carry on, but the figurehead would be eliminated and his capture would do immeasurable good for American morale.

And that is fine as well, you are entitled to this opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. We both agree, eliminating one single man is not going to eliminate the radical Islamofascist movement, that is the point that needs to be established and understood here, and the only one I made.

YOU were the one who made the statement that Zarqawi's death would spell the end of the insurgency. Unlike you, I have NEVER suggested that the death of any one man would have any impact on the insurgency or on the islamic extremist movement. YOu need to own up to yet another in a very long line of totally incorrect prognostications. You need to accept the fact that most folks could get really rich betting against your prognostications....that is, of course, if they bet with someone other than YOU, who reneges on your bets

you willfully ignore the first and greatest commandment. We obviously have a difference of opinion as to its importance. Unlike you, when Jesus commands me to do something, I try really hard not to willfully ignore Him

I have never ignored any commandment, let alone the greatest and first. We have a difference of opinion as to what the commandment means, and how to obey it, but that doesn't mean you are abiding by it, and I am ignoring it, it means we have a difference of opinion. Seems to me, if you support abortion, you are being contradictory to what Jesus commands, but you've managed to somehow justify your position. Seems to me, if you oppose eliminating a tyrant who is killing innocent children of God, you are ignoring what Jesus taught as well, but again, you've managed to justify your position. Mostly what you do, is take bits and pieces of what Jesus said, and apply them where you need to, and disregard the rest. It's my understanding, this isn't how it's supposed to work, we are supposed to take it all, not just the parts we want to apply.

Jesus said to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. The meaning of that is not really open to any interpretation, except by faux-Christians who want to continue killing those neighbors of theirs that they do not like. And if you can find a single sentence uttered by Jesus that states that abortion is not allowed, I'd love to hear it. And I opposed the invasion, conquest and occupation of Iraq. I did not oppose the elimination of Saddam. I happen to know that we have several methods available to eliminate leaders without invading, conquering, occupying and starting a civil war in their country. I would point you to Salvadore Allende as a prime example of a republican administration eliminating the leader of a foreign government with methods less intrusive than invasion. And HE was democratically elected! One would think that if republicans could find a way to assassinate the democratically elected leader of a nation, that we would have been able to find the gumption to assassinate the butcher of Baghdad

turning a blind eye is not the only alternative to invasion, conquest, occupation, torture and mass killing. I think there were many alternatives that would have allowed us to remain engaged in and concerned with the region shy of starting a war in it

Well, the problem is, Jesus didn't say that we were to just be "concerned" with it, we are supposed to take action and do whatever we can. That's exactly what we did, and you opposed it. You've offered no alternative here, you claim we had other alternatives, but nothing you can present is any better than what we did to eliminate Saddam.

I just did

In any event, we can't go back and change what we did, and you seem to think this is possible now. Would Jesus prefer that we leave Iraq and allow radical nuts to take over, oppress the people, kill innocent children of God, and wipe out the Jews? Or would Jesus prefer we stand for what is right in the eyes of God, and help protect innocent human life? I have my opinion, and you have yours, and I can accept that without casting judgement on your Christianity or soul.

Jesus, without question, would prefer that we love the Lord our God with all our hearts and souls and minds AND LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSELVES. Do you really think that "shock and awe" and Abu Ghraib and Haditha are instances in which Jesus would be pleased with our actions?


I am not JUDGING you Dixie....I am merely "observing" you. I make an observation concerning your hypocrisy based upon the things that you say.
"typical of your type of Christian who don't feel the need to DO anything..."
"YOur kind of Christian turns my stomach..."
"NO ONE who claims to love Jesus would EVER so cavelierly ignore his FIRST AND GREATEST COMMANDMENT as you do."
"No doubt, when Dixie arrives in Hell, he will be utterly surprised."
"Unlike you, as a Christian, I feel compelled to follow the teachings of Christ."

Maine, this certainly sounds as if you are judging my faith and what kind of Christian I am.

no "judging" taking place at all....merely "observing" what kind of Christian your own words portray you to be. I have no idea whether you actually feel the way you write or act the way you write....my observations are just that.

why are you not forcefully advocating the use of American military might to stop the other tyrants of the world?

I'm all for it, but I don't think we can actually take on the entire world in one day. I believe we can advocate freedom and democracy, and if we have the opportunity to defend it, we should.

I think we should advocate freedom and democracy as well. I just think that Jesus would not support the application of shock and awe as a means of softening up a country prior to invading it with 150K combat troops and causing tens of thousands of innocent civilian casualties as a valid advocacy technique

Why are you not forcefully advocating the invasion, conquest and occupation of Iran and Syria and North Korea and China and Somalia and all the other places where tyranny reigns?

Because it's not practical to do so, and in some cases, might not even be necessary.

So you think that Jesus only wanted us to do what was right when it was "practical" to do so? How "practical" has this stupid bloody war in Iraq been, by the way?

Why do you ignore Jesus when He told you what His most important commandment was?

Jesus didn't say that any one commandment was more important than the others.

Oh really?

From Mark 12: "One of the scribes, when he came forward and heard them disputing and saw how well he had answered them, asked him, "Which is the first of all the commandments?" Jesus replied, "The first is this: 'Hear O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone! You shall love the Lord your God with al1 your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

You really need to read the Bible before you preach from it. Shame on you.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 08:15 PM
There is no other commandment greater than these."

Doesn't mean that other commandments are less important. It means no commandment is greater. There is no commandment "more important" than the others, and that wasn't what he said.

maineman
12-08-2006, 08:26 PM
spin spin spin.....

you are pathetic

maineman
12-08-2006, 08:28 PM
but you go find the one that says we should unleash shock and awe on Iraqi civilians and show me how that is of equal importance.

I'll wait.

you faux Christian

Gaffer
12-08-2006, 08:35 PM
All Ialamic people are not nuts.
Unless you consider all religiopus people nuts ?

I consider all islamic people as practicing and evil religion. Some are more evil than others. But then I'm just an islamobigot.

And I don't believe in religion.

Beefy
12-08-2006, 09:30 PM
MaineMan says:
And if you can find a single sentence uttered by Jesus that states that abortion is not allowed, I'd love to hear it.

Jesus doesn't talk about what is and isn't allowed. But I'm pretty damned sure that Jesus would not be neutral to abortion. Abortion is inconsistent with Jesus' teachings. That should be extraordinarily, flagrantly, "poke you in the eye" obvious. Seriously.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 10:16 PM
I am not JUDGING you Dixie....I am merely "observing" you. I make an observation concerning your hypocrisy based upon the things that you say.
"typical of your type of Christian who don't feel the need to DO anything..."
"YOur kind of Christian turns my stomach..."
"NO ONE who claims to love Jesus would EVER so cavelierly ignore his FIRST AND GREATEST COMMANDMENT as you do."
"No doubt, when Dixie arrives in Hell, he will be utterly surprised."
"Unlike you, as a Christian, I feel compelled to follow the teachings of Christ."
"you faux Christian"

And the list grows!

Gaffer
12-08-2006, 10:33 PM
Battling like sunni's and shea.

My impression of minnieman is that he's the type that see heaven as sitting on on a cloud looking down and laughing at the souls burning hell.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 11:17 PM
MaineMan says:
And if you can find a single sentence uttered by Jesus that states that abortion is not allowed, I'd love to hear it.

Jesus doesn't talk about what is and isn't allowed. But I'm pretty damned sure that Jesus would not be neutral to abortion. Abortion is inconsistent with Jesus' teachings. That should be extraordinarily, flagrantly, "poke you in the eye" obvious. Seriously.


Someone also need to teach Maine some geography, insurgents in Iraq, are not our neighbor.

The very idea of intentionally killing an unborn child—or even worse, killing them by the hundreds and thousands,—is totally foreign to the lives of God's people in the Bible, and so it is never mentioned. However, the Bible, as well as Jesus, makes it very clear this is forbidden in the eyes of God.

"And Jesus called a little child unto Him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in My name receiveth Me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."—Matthew 18:2-5.

"Whosoever shall receive this child in My name receiveth Me, and whosoever shall receive Me, receiveth Him that sent Me. For he that is least among you all, the same shall be greatest."—Luke 9:48.

Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person."—Deuteronomy 27:24.

"These . . things doth the Lord hate: . . A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood."—Proverbs 6:1617.

The prophet Amos condemns the Ammonites "because they ripped open expectant mothers in Gilead" (Amos 1:13).

"Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward" (Psalm 127:3).

"You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15).

"God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).

"Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17) and Christ reaffirms it (Matthew 19:18 - notice that He mentions this commandment first). The Book of Revelation affirms that (unrepentant) murderers cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (Revelation 22:15).

"They mutilated their sons and daughters by fire…till the Lord, in his great anger against Israel, put them away out of his sight" (2 Kings 17:17-18)

Genesis 9:6 - Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.

In the Bible, our worth as a human being or our "personhood" does not depend on how far along on life’s journey we have come. Instead, we are beings who are made in the image of God (Gen. 1:27). Each person is valuable because God created him or her that way. It doesn’t matter whether a person is still in his mother’s womb, a newborn, a toddler, an adolescent, or a senior citizen. Only quite recently has the concept of "personhood" surfaced. There are some in our society who want to find a developmental stage where they can justify that the fetus is only a collection of organs, not really a person. Carl Sagan put that fetal stage at perhaps 6 months, when the cerebral cortex is in place. Only then, he feels, should we confer "personhood" on a fetus.4 Such ideas are clearly subjective. It would seem that these discussions of personhood only arose from a need to justify the act of abortion. Certainly, they are not expressed in the Bible. Quite to the contrary, the Bible story shows that "personhood", or reaching one’s full potential, comes from knowing God. A person develops and is preserved through his communion with a personal God who reveals Himself to us in love. The Bible consistently links our "personhood" to the time we are formed (conception), or even before in God’s "mind".

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-08-2006, 11:31 PM
no "judging" taking place at all....merely "observing" what kind of Christian your own words portray you to be.

How can you "observe" my relationship with God, or what is inside of my heart? You are casting judgement on me, based on your personal perception of my words. That is a sin in the eyes of God... judge not, lest ye be judged. When you make the statement that I am a "faux Christian" that isn't an observation, it is a judgement, a label you have applied to me. You don't have this right, nor do you have the right to tell me I'm not the right "kind" of Christian. These are judgements that are supposed to be left to God alone, not Maineman! Of course, I'm sure you can schmooze God and show him your Navy medals, and he will appreciate your work with the choir and delivering communion, and just take your word for it, that I am not the "right kind of Christian", thus condemning me to eternal damnation.

Care4all
12-09-2006, 07:29 AM
Christians are obligated to speak out when another Christian has lost their way.....examine the fruit they bear...a good tree will bear only good fruit but a rotten tree will bear rotten fruit....

this is not to condemn them to hell, but to know who you are dealing with and to keep God's word pure and not distorted by those rotten fruit bearers... :D

uscitizen
12-09-2006, 07:38 AM
A lot of those scriptures Dixie posted can also be used against war and killing in general....
Would Jesus support the Iraq war ?

Care4all
12-09-2006, 08:26 AM
A lot of those scriptures Dixie posted can also be used against war and killing in general....
Would Jesus support the Iraq war ?

Of course NOT.

The Iraq war was an UNJUST war, in every manner because it was built on lies, the intentional misleading of the public by the President, by his administration and by senators and congressmen that followed this arrogant and bold, destroyer of all.... :(

over 600,000 people have been killed in just a few years because of US....YES US. Not because of Saddam....but because of our actions and inactions in taking the safety of the iraqi innocense seriously, as the Occupier of the country, we failed too...which also is why the war was an unjust war action on our part...we failed to protect the innocent people of Iraq, which is a REQUIREMENT of a JUST WAR....

and good morning uscit! Is it still cold down there? we have snow everywhere, about 4 inches...and it is cold!!!

uscitizen
12-09-2006, 08:37 AM
Yes Jesus did not turn away the Gentiles, now did he ?

How can any TRUE Christian support the Iraq war ?
jesus believed in converting by example not force.

GM Care no Snow , but warmer this morning was 14, I think it was about 6 yesterday morning.

Just got back in from feeding the kitties and stoking up a fire for them in my workshop.

uscitizen
12-09-2006, 08:59 AM
Someone also need to teach Maine some geography, insurgents in Iraq, are not our neighbor.

The very idea of intentionally killing an unborn child—or even worse, killing them by the hundreds and thousands,—is totally foreign to the lives of God's people in the Bible, and so it is never mentioned. However, the Bible, as well as Jesus, makes it very clear this is forbidden in the eyes of God.

"And Jesus called a little child unto Him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in My name receiveth Me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."—Matthew 18:2-5.

"Whosoever shall receive this child in My name receiveth Me, and whosoever shall receive Me, receiveth Him that sent Me. For he that is least among you all, the same shall be greatest."—Luke 9:48.

Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person."—Deuteronomy 27:24.

"These . . things doth the Lord hate: . . A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood."—Proverbs 6:1617.

The prophet Amos condemns the Ammonites "because they ripped open expectant mothers in Gilead" (Amos 1:13).

"Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward" (Psalm 127:3).

"You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15).

"God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).

"Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17) and Christ reaffirms it (Matthew 19:18 - notice that He mentions this commandment first). The Book of Revelation affirms that (unrepentant) murderers cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (Revelation 22:15).

"They mutilated their sons and daughters by fire…till the Lord, in his great anger against Israel, put them away out of his sight" (2 Kings 17:17-18)

Genesis 9:6 - Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.

In the Bible, our worth as a human being or our "personhood" does not depend on how far along on life’s journey we have come. Instead, we are beings who are made in the image of God (Gen. 1:27). Each person is valuable because God created him or her that way. It doesn’t matter whether a person is still in his mother’s womb, a newborn, a toddler, an adolescent, or a senior citizen. Only quite recently has the concept of "personhood" surfaced. There are some in our society who want to find a developmental stage where they can justify that the fetus is only a collection of organs, not really a person. Carl Sagan put that fetal stage at perhaps 6 months, when the cerebral cortex is in place. Only then, he feels, should we confer "personhood" on a fetus.4 Such ideas are clearly subjective. It would seem that these discussions of personhood only arose from a need to justify the act of abortion. Certainly, they are not expressed in the Bible. Quite to the contrary, the Bible story shows that "personhood", or reaching one’s full potential, comes from knowing God. A person develops and is preserved through his communion with a personal God who reveals Himself to us in love. The Bible consistently links our "personhood" to the time we are formed (conception), or even before in God’s "mind".


Thanks Dixie, much of those scriptures also says TRUE Christians cannot support the Iraq war....

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 09:52 AM
Uscitizen, this is going to shock you, but I agree, you are somewhat right. Most of what I posted was regarding the killing of innocents, but Jesus made it clear, we are supposed to love life, and not destroy it. There are exceptions made for people guilty of killing innocent life, they are condemned to death by stoning, and this is apparently acceptable to God, Jesus never spoke out against it, and it's found throughout the Bible.

If we could convert the entire world to Christianity, and all live the message of Jesus, there would be no more wars or need for wars. Unless you are willing to try and convert the entire world population, I'm afraid wars are an unfortunate fact of the human condition. It would also be great if our government conducted itself like Jesus, I'm sure you and the Atheist crowd would just love that, but if we adopted such policy as a nation, our fate would likely parallel that of Jesus, and we would be crucified as a nation in short order.

So, while I wholeheartedly agree, Jesus would not approve of us killing innocent people in war, there isn't a whole heck of a lot we can do about it. We can stand up and demand our country not fight wars, but then, we are denying that our enemies are committing the sin of killing the innocents, and ignoring our responsibility to stop it, if we can.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 10:03 AM
Christians are obligated to speak out when another Christian has lost their way.....examine the fruit they bear...a good tree will bear only good fruit but a rotten tree will bear rotten fruit....

this is not to condemn them to hell, but to know who you are dealing with and to keep God's word pure and not distorted by those rotten fruit bearers... :D

There is a difference between pointing out unChristian-like behavior, and casting judgement on someone and their faith. Examining the fruit is somewhat a judgement, but it doesn't cast judgement. This illustrates the subtle difference between me telling Lummox he apparently doesn't know how a true Christian should behave, and Maineman telling me I am a fake Christian. Although judgements have to be made in both cases, one is a judgement of fruit, the other is a judgement of soul. We are not supposed to judge a person's soul, that is God's place. I can't tell you that you are "not the right kind" of Christian, I can witness to you and share my own understandings of what the "right kind of Christian" is, and I can observe your actions and make the determination you bear rotten fruit, but I can never speak for what is truly in your heart, or the relationship between you and God.

Jarod
12-09-2006, 11:02 AM
Could you point to a recent occurance of such things?


Sure last year Palm BEach County's only clinic that provided abortions to the indigent was firebombed....

Jarod
12-09-2006, 11:06 AM
Dixie said...

"The RR doesn't preach intolerance of Jews and Infidels, or anyone else."


BUT LOOK AT THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD...

ROTFLMAO!

Cypress
12-09-2006, 11:19 AM
There is a difference between pointing out unChristian-like behavior, and casting judgement on someone and their faith. Examining the fruit is somewhat a judgement, but it doesn't cast judgement. This illustrates the subtle difference between me telling Lummox he apparently doesn't know how a true Christian should behave, and Maineman telling me I am a fake Christian. Although judgements have to be made in both cases, one is a judgement of fruit, the other is a judgement of soul. We are not supposed to judge a person's soul, that is God's place. I can't tell you that you are "not the right kind" of Christian, I can witness to you and share my own understandings of what the "right kind of Christian" is, and I can observe your actions and make the determination you bear rotten fruit, but I can never speak for what is truly in your heart, or the relationship between you and God.


But you spent the whol thread "judging what is in other's hearts":


1) DIXIE: “There is a difference between pointing out unChristian-like behavior, and casting judgement on someone and their faith. Although judgements have to be made in both cases, one is a judgement of fruit, the other is a judgement of soul. We are not supposed to judge a person's soul, that is God's place….I can never speak for what is truly in your heart, or the relationship between you and God.”


2) DIXIE, first post in thread: “I've been doing a little research on the Muslim faith, and I believe I am starting to understand why so many pinheads seem to almost side with the Muslims against the civilized world. It's because Islam is the Religion of Pinheads! Yes, it's true!

Much like the Liberal Left, Muslims will consistently talk out of both sides of their mouth, they will maintain that Islam is a 'religion of peace' and at the same time, call for violence and jihad against those who disagree with them…

It is amazing, when you compare Muslim radicals with Liberal radicals, how much their ideological traits are similar. “

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 11:20 AM
Dixie said...

"The RR doesn't preach intolerance of Jews and Infidels, or anyone else."


BUT LOOK AT THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD...

ROTFLMAO!

Jarhead, there are several things I should point out. First, I am not a member of the Religious Right, I support their right to express their political voice, just as I support the right of homosexuals, blacks, women, Hispanics, etc. to have a political voice as a group. Because I might happen to agree with points these groups might make, doesn't mean I am a part of those groups.

Secondly, my pointing out the parallel between Liberalism and Islam, is not intolerance. To be 'intolerant' is to 'not tolerate' something. I have tolerated pinheads for years, when I get the AK-47 out and start popping you idiots in the head, THEN I will have become "intolerant" to pinheads. You should spend a little time at http://www.dictionary.com and see if you can't learn what these big words mean, before you go shooting off your ignorant mouth.

There has never been an abortion clinic bombing that the RR condoned and didn't condemn. A good comparative example would be the KKK and Christianity, the Church never condoned or approved of what the KKK did in their name, and shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of a few.

uscitizen
12-09-2006, 11:25 AM
Uscitizen, this is going to shock you, but I agree, you are somewhat right. Most of what I posted was regarding the killing of innocents, but Jesus made it clear, we are supposed to love life, and not destroy it. There are exceptions made for people guilty of killing innocent life, they are condemned to death by stoning, and this is apparently acceptable to God, Jesus never spoke out against it, and it's found throughout the Bible.

If we could convert the entire world to Christianity, and all live the message of Jesus, there would be no more wars or need for wars. Unless you are willing to try and convert the entire world population, I'm afraid wars are an unfortunate fact of the human condition. It would also be great if our government conducted itself like Jesus, I'm sure you and the Atheist crowd would just love that, but if we adopted such policy as a nation, our fate would likely parallel that of Jesus, and we would be crucified as a nation in short order.

So, while I wholeheartedly agree, Jesus would not approve of us killing innocent people in war, there isn't a whole heck of a lot we can do about it. We can stand up and demand our country not fight wars, but then, we are denying that our enemies are committing the sin of killing the innocents, and ignoring our responsibility to stop it, if we can.

amazing post dix, But there is someting Christians can do about it, not support it. If you support the war and it is a sin, then you sin too.

uscitizen
12-09-2006, 11:29 AM
Perhaps we need a thread pointing out the paralells between Liberals and Christ.....

Acording to the Jewish church of his time Christ was very liberal. So liberal and radical in fact that the Jews had him crucified....

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 11:31 AM
But you spent the whol thread "judging what is in other's hearts":


1) DIXIE: “There is a difference between pointing out unChristian-like behavior, and casting judgement on someone and their faith. Although judgements have to be made in both cases, one is a judgement of fruit, the other is a judgement of soul. We are not supposed to judge a person's soul, that is God's place….I can never speak for what is truly in your heart, or the relationship between you and God.”


2) DIXIE, first post in thread: “I've been doing a little research on the Muslim faith, and I believe I am starting to understand why so many pinheads seem to almost side with the Muslims against the civilized world. It's because Islam is the Religion of Pinheads! Yes, it's true!

Much like the Liberal Left, Muslims will consistently talk out of both sides of their mouth, they will maintain that Islam is a 'religion of peace' and at the same time, call for violence and jihad against those who disagree with them…

It is amazing, when you compare Muslim radicals with Liberal radicals, how much their ideological traits are similar. “

Prissy, I am sorry, I don't see where I have judged what's in anyone's heart. I made valid observations and have yet to see any counterpoint made. Forming opinions on entire groups of people, might be considered stereotyping, but it's not personal judgement of faith or soul. I honestly believe God has the power to touch the heart of any man, even someone as devoutly anti-God as Arnold, God has the ability to reach. This being the case, it's not for me to judge what is in his heart, or what is in your heart, I simply don't know, that is between you and God, and I make no judgement.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 11:39 AM
amazing post dix, But there is someting Christians can do about it, not support it. If you support the war and it is a sin, then you sin too.

Like I said, it's a double-edge sword, if you don't support removing a tyrant who was murdering innocent people, you are not standing up for the principles of Christ either. You are turning your back on your responsibility as a Christian, to protect innocent life. War isn't a sin, the Bible doesn't say that anywhere, and if you can show me where it does, I'll acknowledge it. In fact, there are several instances, (pointed out in your other thread) where God mandates his followers to wage war and kill everyone, because they are evil.

The sin, is the intentional taking of innocent life, with malice. (like abortion) To my knowledge, that isn't being done in Iraq, and if it has occurred, it is purely an isolated incident and not condoned by the US or myself, and those who are guilty will be punished on earth as well as God, if they do not repent.

uscitizen
12-09-2006, 11:44 AM
but we killed many innocent people in removing this tyrant, so are we any better than he was ?

"The sin, is the intentional taking of innocent life, with malice."

Absolutely, wouldnt you say that a 500 lb bomb falling in your house was a bit malicious, since you had done nothing at all to the person responsible for dropping the bomb.

Jarod
12-09-2006, 11:46 AM
Jarhead, there are several things I should point out. First, I am not a member of the Religious Right, I support their right to express their political voice, just as I support the right of homosexuals, blacks, women, Hispanics, etc. to have a political voice as a group. Because I might happen to agree with points these groups might make, doesn't mean I am a part of those groups.

Secondly, my pointing out the parallel between Liberalism and Islam, is not intolerance. To be 'intolerant' is to 'not tolerate' something. I have tolerated pinheads for years, when I get the AK-47 out and start popping you idiots in the head, THEN I will have become "intolerant" to pinheads. You should spend a little time at http://www.dictionary.com and see if you can't learn what these big words mean, before you go shooting off your ignorant mouth.

There has never been an abortion clinic bombing that the RR condoned and didn't condemn. A good comparative example would be the KKK and Christianity, the Church never condoned or approved of what the KKK did in their name, and shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of a few.


Good point, and Islam never condoned or approved of what Al Queda is doing...EINSTEIN...

You just showed the idiocy of your argument.. Blaiming Islam for what Al Queda does Its the same as blaming Christians for the Behavyor of the KKK.

uscitizen
12-09-2006, 11:47 AM
Blaiming Islam for what Al Queda does Its the same as blaming Christians for the Behavyor of the KKK.
//

Yep that pretty well sums it up.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 11:54 AM
Perhaps we need a thread pointing out the paralells between Liberals and Christ.....

Acording to the Jewish church of his time Christ was very liberal. So liberal and radical in fact that the Jews had him crucified....


You know, I hear this argument made often, and somehow, I just can't picture Jesus condoning abortion on demand, taking 'God' out of the pledge, or marching in the Gay Pride parade. Maybe he would, but I just don't see it. Jesus was tolerant of sinners, he befriended a prostitute, he spent much of his life healing the outcast and accepting the ones society had turned its back on. In that regard, Jesus was liberal, but it was only in regard to his tolerance. Liberals accept these things, not out of tolerance, but out of a willing acceptance of things the Bible speaks out against and sometimes forbids. Jesus never believed it was acceptable to allow people to do as they pleased, and not get involved, just mind his own business and let them do as they wished with no consequence. He was a big proponent of personal responsibility, something totally foreign to most liberals.

One of the great misconceptions liberals have in this argument, is through attempting to apply worldly political attributes to Jesus, the Son of God. This was a perfect man, a human without sin, he wasn't a liberal, conservative, libertarian, or anything other than the Son of God. If anything, Jesus would have condemned labeling each other with preordained ideology, and establishing our beliefs on that basis. He would have most likely said, forsake your political affiliations and follow the word of God always, that is the only true guide in life.

Jarod
12-09-2006, 11:56 AM
EINSTEIN SAID...

"Jesus never spoke out against it (stoneing someone to death)"
Gospel of John 8:7


Hey EINSTEIN,

Ever heard of the phrase "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Who said it????

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 12:01 PM
but we killed many innocent people in removing this tyrant, so are we any better than he was ?

"The sin, is the intentional taking of innocent life, with malice."

Absolutely, wouldnt you say that a 500 lb bomb falling in your house was a bit malicious, since you had done nothing at all to the person responsible for dropping the bomb.


This is why I agreed with you before, and said you were somewhat right. If all that was happening in Iraq, was the intentional bombing of innocent people, I would not condone this war in any respect. That simply isn't the case, and you have to realize this. We are not there to kill innocent Iraqis with malice, in fact, the collateral damage of this war is one of the lowest of any war ever fought. We've gone to great lengths, at the risk of our own soldiers lives, I might add, to avoid the unintentional killing of innocent people in Iraq. Subsequently, the insurgents have no regard for innocent life, and are the ones who continue to kill innocent Iraqis, we are there to prevent that.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 12:04 PM
EINSTEIN SAID...

"Jesus never spoke out against it (stoneing someone to death)"
Gospel of John 8:7


Hey EINSTEIN,

Ever heard of the phrase "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Who said it????

I believe you have misquoted me. Sorry, I don't respond to misquotes. If you would like to edit your post, or repost with the actual content of my original words, then I will be happy to have a discussion with you on the matter. Otherwise, piss off!

Jarod
12-09-2006, 12:08 PM
Nice try at getting out of it EINSTEIN...

"...Jesus never spoke out against it, and it's found throughout the Bible." - your direct quote... you were discussing the biblical practice of stoning people!

Jarod
12-09-2006, 12:12 PM
Einstein you failed to acknoledge the ownership of you when I said...

Blaiming Islam for what Al Queda does Its the same as blaming Christians for the Behavyor of the KKK.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 12:18 PM
Nice try at getting out of it EINSTEIN...

"...Jesus never spoke out against it, and it's found throughout the Bible." - your direct quote... you were discussing the biblical practice of stoning people!


Excuse me, I need to see the actual quote, so I can see what context it was presented. I think you've misconstrued something I said, as usual. Jesus never spoke out against the punishment ordained by God in the Old Testament, to stone people to death, if they were guilty of murder. I'm not trying to "get out of" anything, I just need to see what you're talking about before I can comment fully on it.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 12:19 PM
Einstein you failed to acknoledge the ownership of you when I said...

Blaiming Islam for what Al Queda does Its the same as blaming Christians for the Behavyor of the KKK.

I agree with that statement, you didn't "own" me.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 01:00 PM
Okay, I searched through my posts and found the quote you are talking about:

There are exceptions made for people guilty of killing innocent life, they are condemned to death by stoning, and this is apparently acceptable to God, Jesus never spoke out against it, and it's found throughout the Bible.

Now, to counter my statement, you presented the quote from Jesus in the book of John: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

The "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" incident is one of the most well-known lessons of the Bible. A woman, who had been caught in the act of adultery was brought to Jesus Christ by the scribes (Lawyers) and Pharisees as a test to see if the Messiah was a liberal in matters of the Law of God. In response to their deceitful query, He didn't condemn the woman, not because He was a liberal, not because He condoned her sin, but because the men who brought the woman to Him were Hypocrites. He was the only person there that day who was free of sin, the only one who had the right to "cast the first stone." He didn't stone her (or her accusers), but instead forgave her and told her to "sin no more." Otherwise, the day is coming when she, if she didn't thereafter repent, won't be stoned, but will be burned - along with the hypocrites who brought her to Him that day, if they didn't thereafter repent of their sin:

"Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15 KJV)

The reference you are using is taken out of context, if you are applying it to the punishment of stoning people to death who are guilty of murder.

uscitizen
12-09-2006, 01:20 PM
You know, I hear this argument made often, and somehow, I just can't picture Jesus condoning abortion on demand, taking 'God' out of the pledge, or marching in the Gay Pride parade. Maybe he would, but I just don't see it. Jesus was tolerant of sinners, he befriended a prostitute, he spent much of his life healing the outcast and accepting the ones society had turned its back on. In that regard, Jesus was liberal, but it was only in regard to his tolerance. Liberals accept these things, not out of tolerance, but out of a willing acceptance of things the Bible speaks out against and sometimes forbids. Jesus never believed it was acceptable to allow people to do as they pleased, and not get involved, just mind his own business and let them do as they wished with no consequence. He was a big proponent of personal responsibility, something totally foreign to most liberals.

One of the great misconceptions liberals have in this argument, is through attempting to apply worldly political attributes to Jesus, the Son of God. This was a perfect man, a human without sin, he wasn't a liberal, conservative, libertarian, or anything other than the Son of God. If anything, Jesus would have condemned labeling each other with preordained ideology, and establishing our beliefs on that basis. He would have most likely said, forsake your political affiliations and follow the word of God always, that is the only true guide in life.

yeah and Jesus would not support pedophiles either, so what has that got to do with what I said ?

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 01:35 PM
yeah and Jesus would not support pedophiles either, so what has that got to do with what I said ?

I was responding to your assertion that Jesus was a Liberal. He wasn't.

uscitizen
12-09-2006, 01:38 PM
You are wrong dix. A liberal allows others to do their own thing, a conservative, like the Jewish Church of Jesus's time do not , you have to toe the line.
I got my info from Theologians at the local seminary. I think they are a bit more knowledegable than you.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 01:48 PM
You are wrong dix. A liberal allows others to do their own thing, a conservative, like the Jewish Church of Jesus's time do not , you have to toe the line.
I got my info from Theologians at the local seminary. I think they are a bit more knowledegable than you.


Show me where Jesus ever said that it was okay to "do your own thing" and I'll agree that he was a Liberal. I don't believe he ever suggested anything so ridiculous. I don't care what "theologian" said Jesus was a Liberal, he wasn't. Jesus was the Son of God, a perfect man, without sin. He was not a Liberal, he was not a Conservative, he was not a Libertarian, he was not a member of any political party. If anything, Jesus would have condemned such labels, and told us to forsake our political ideologies and follow the Word of God.

Jesus certainly does instruct us to follow the Word of God, he doesn't say... but if you don't really want to, you don't have to! That's what Liberals say! Jesus never said there were to be no consequences for our behavior, or that we can do whatever we want as long as we love each other. He instructed us to follow God's Word without regard for our personal desires, and to repent for our sins. He didn't condone sin, he did teach forgiveness for it. Liberals condone sin in every way imaginable, and this is not consistent with the teaching of Jesus.

maineman
12-09-2006, 02:17 PM
MaineMan says:
And if you can find a single sentence uttered by Jesus that states that abortion is not allowed, I'd love to hear it.

Jesus doesn't talk about what is and isn't allowed. But I'm pretty damned sure that Jesus would not be neutral to abortion. Abortion is inconsistent with Jesus' teachings. That should be extraordinarily, flagrantly, "poke you in the eye" obvious. Seriously.


I am glad that you are pretty damned sure of what Jesus would think about abortion. Excuse me if I respectfully disagree, especially with your comments about how obvious it is

maineman
12-09-2006, 02:20 PM
I am not JUDGING you Dixie....I am merely "observing" you. I make an observation concerning your hypocrisy based upon the things that you say.
"typical of your type of Christian who don't feel the need to DO anything..."
"YOur kind of Christian turns my stomach..."
"NO ONE who claims to love Jesus would EVER so cavelierly ignore his FIRST AND GREATEST COMMANDMENT as you do."
"No doubt, when Dixie arrives in Hell, he will be utterly surprised."
"Unlike you, as a Christian, I feel compelled to follow the teachings of Christ."
"you faux Christian"

And the list grows!

no judgment there at all DIx... God will judge you. I certainly think that your own words clearly portray your refusal to abide by Jesus's greatest commandment.... I merely make those observations.

maineman
12-09-2006, 02:30 PM
no "judging" taking place at all....merely "observing" what kind of Christian your own words portray you to be.

How can you "observe" my relationship with God, or what is inside of my heart? You are casting judgement on me, based on your personal perception of my words. That is a sin in the eyes of God... judge not, lest ye be judged. When you make the statement that I am a "faux Christian" that isn't an observation, it is a judgement, a label you have applied to me. You don't have this right, nor do you have the right to tell me I'm not the right "kind" of Christian. These are judgements that are supposed to be left to God alone, not Maineman! Of course, I'm sure you can schmooze God and show him your Navy medals, and he will appreciate your work with the choir and delivering communion, and just take your word for it, that I am not the "right kind of Christian", thus condemning me to eternal damnation.

again...it is not up to me to judge you....God will do that soon enough. I comment on my observations.... and again...still no words from Jesus about abortion.... I didn't think so.... and I really don't think you want to get into Old Testament stuff here, do you? My guess is that, if OT laws and edicts were what you felt Christians needed to follow, you would be sadly lacking as much as I would.

And I don't have to show God anything. He knows that I serve communion. He knows I am a deacon. He knows I sing in the choir. He knows I work at the soup kitchen. Just like He knows that the blood of thousands of Americans and Iraqis has dried on your hands. I don't need to schmooze God to get Him to see all of that... he knows that self righteous pretentiously pious men who revel in the death of thousands are not really following Christ's greatest commandment....and He would, I would imagine, be pretty disappointed if folks who claimed to follow Him, were to split hairs as to proximity between them and other children of His and claim that "neighbor" in the sense that Jesus said it really only pertained to the folks in the house next door.

Beefy
12-09-2006, 02:32 PM
He knows that I serve communion. He knows I am a deacon. He knows I sing in the choir. He knows I work at the soup kitchen.

Does he know about your piety? :)

maineman
12-09-2006, 02:38 PM
You know, I hear this argument made often, and somehow, I just can't picture Jesus condoning abortion on demand, taking 'God' out of the pledge, or marching in the Gay Pride parade. Maybe he would, but I just don't see it. Jesus was tolerant of sinners, he befriended a prostitute, he spent much of his life healing the outcast and accepting the ones society had turned its back on. In that regard, Jesus was liberal, but it was only in regard to his tolerance. Liberals accept these things, not out of tolerance, but out of a willing acceptance of things the Bible speaks out against and sometimes forbids. Jesus never believed it was acceptable to allow people to do as they pleased, and not get involved, just mind his own business and let them do as they wished with no consequence. He was a big proponent of personal responsibility, something totally foreign to most liberals.

One of the great misconceptions liberals have in this argument, is through attempting to apply worldly political attributes to Jesus, the Son of God. This was a perfect man, a human without sin, he wasn't a liberal, conservative, libertarian, or anything other than the Son of God. If anything, Jesus would have condemned labeling each other with preordained ideology, and establishing our beliefs on that basis. He would have most likely said, forsake your political affiliations and follow the word of God always, that is the only true guide in life.

The fact that you cannot picture Jesus condoning abortion is not synonymous with proof that Jesus condemned it. Do yo think that abortion is a modern day anomoly? Do you think that women did NOT have abortions in the time of Jesus? I wonder why He never mentioned it? Maybe it wasn't quite as big a deal to HIM as it is to the wacko faux Christians like you who claim to know what he would or would not condone?

maineman
12-09-2006, 02:43 PM
He knows that I serve communion. He knows I am a deacon. He knows I sing in the choir. He knows I work at the soup kitchen.

Does he know about your piety? :)

I am not pious at all.... I do what I think Jesus would want me to do.... there are many times when I selfishly chose to do something other than what I think Jesus would want me to do.... I never said I was perfect....only forgiven.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 03:07 PM
no judgment there at all DIx... God will judge you. I certainly think that your own words clearly portray your refusal to abide by Jesus's greatest commandment.... I merely make those observations.

The things I listed were not mere observations, you can claim that all you like, they were judgements. Determinations, not observations, you made about me and my personal faith in God. This is forbidden by God, and you will be punished if you don't repent for it.

"Your statement is not consistent with the teachings of Christ" is an "observation"... "You are a fake Christian" is a proclaimed definitive statement of judgement. There is a humongous difference there, and you need to learn it before you die and burn in hell for all eternity.

maineman
12-09-2006, 03:13 PM
my guess is that I will have a better chance of avoiding Hell for the sin of scoffing at YOUR "brand" of Christianity that would split hairs about the proximity of people that you need to treat in accordance with great commandment than YOU will for the sin of cheering the application of shock and awe upon Baghdad, or the minimization of the gravity of Abu Ghraib or Haditha or the war in Iraq in general.

I have done a lot of things in life that are further from Christ's teachings than calling you out for being a pious hypocrite.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 03:16 PM
The fact that you cannot picture Jesus condoning abortion is not synonymous with proof that Jesus condemned it. Do yo think that abortion is a modern day anomoly? Do you think that women did NOT have abortions in the time of Jesus? I wonder why He never mentioned it? Maybe it wasn't quite as big a deal to HIM as it is to the wacko faux Christians like you who claim to know what he would or would not condone?


Oh, Jesus most certainly condemned the intentional taking of innocent life, if you want me to repost all the various quotes, I can. There are many things Jesus didn't mention, he didn't say a word about smoking cigarettes, taking LSD, or homosexuals marrying each other, either. This doesn't mean that he condoned it or was "okay" with it, the lessons and principles are there, you just choose to ignore them.

I think it was a "big deal" to him, people who were hypocrites, and cast judgement on others. I think it was a "big deal" to him, anyone who wasn't following the Word of God and obeying his commandments, and I don't think you can show me otherwise. You can think whatever you want to, abortion is the intentional and malicious taking of an innocent life, and that is punishable by death in the Bible, ordained by God and supported by Jesus.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 03:20 PM
my guess is that I will have a better chance of avoiding Hell for the sin of scoffing at YOUR "brand" of Christianity that would split hairs about the proximity of people that you need to treat in accordance with great commandment than YOU will for the sin of cheering the application of shock and awe upon Baghdad, or the minimization of the gravity of Abu Ghraib or Haditha or the war in Iraq in general.

I have done a lot of things in life that are further from Christ's teachings than calling you out for being a pious hypocrite.


Let's be clear, it's not a sin to "scoff" at "my brand" of Christianity, and call me a hypocrite, you can do that all you like, and God doesn't have a problem with it. It's when you cast judgements on me, and proclaim that I am not "the right kind" of Christian, or that I am a "fake Christian", that God has a problem with you. It's not up to you to decide what kind of Christian I am, or if I am indeed a Christian by your standards, that is left solely up to God, and forbidden for you to judge, and if you continue to do it without repent, you will burn in hell, according to the Bible.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 03:21 PM
I am not pious at all.... I do what I think Jesus would want me to do....

BULL SHIT!

maineman
12-09-2006, 03:22 PM
since most folks on the planet believe that life begins at birth, I don't think you can show me where Jesus thought that fetuses - especially those in the first or second trimester - were considered innocent LIFE.


Do you celebrate the day that you were born as your birthday, or do you celebrate the day that that john knocked up your mother?

maineman
12-09-2006, 03:23 PM
I am not pious at all.... I do what I think Jesus would want me to do....

BULL SHIT!

are you judging what sort of Christian I am?

lol

maineman
12-09-2006, 03:26 PM
Let's be clear, it's not a sin to "scoff" at "my brand" of Christianity, and call me a hypocrite, you can do that all you like, and God doesn't have a problem with it. It's when you cast judgements on me, and proclaim that I am not "the right kind" of Christian, or that I am a "fake Christian", that God has a problem with you. It's not up to you to decide what kind of Christian I am, or if I am indeed a Christian by your standards, that is left solely up to God, and forbidden for you to judge, and if you continue to do it without repent, you will burn in hell, according to the Bible.

again...I scoff at you, I don't judge you...and again....I have done a whole lot worse things than scoff at faux Christians..... have YOU done a lot worse than cheer the death of thousands?

and don't say you didn't...because you CERTAINLY cheered the arrival of Shock and Awe......

shame on you.

Beefy
12-09-2006, 03:32 PM
since most folks on the planet believe that life begins at birth, I don't think you can show me where Jesus thought that fetuses - especially those in the first or second trimester - were considered innocent LIFE.


Do you celebrate the day that you were born as your birthday, or do you celebrate the day that that john knocked up your mother?

You'll have a very hard time convincing me that you actually believe Jesus would be neutral on abortion. That's absurd. On this issue, pick an identity, the one that's consistent with Jesus' teachings, or the one that's consistent with the Democrats. You can't have it both ways here. You can't honestly believe that Jesus wouldn't care about abortion. LOL Anything for the democrats eh? Trying to say that Jesus wouldn't care about the unborn whatsoever is totally stupid and you know it. You just can't admit it because after all, you're a deacon, you eat communion, you get ashes put all over your face, and you are a pious man of God right?

And my brother is a recovering drug addict. He celebrates his birthday on the anniversary of the day he got clean 11 years ago. Doesn't mean that he was not alive prior to that.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 03:49 PM
since most folks on the planet believe that life begins at birth, I don't think you can show me where Jesus thought that fetuses - especially those in the first or second trimester - were considered innocent LIFE.


Do you celebrate the day that you were born as your birthday, or do you celebrate the day that that john knocked up your mother?

Go read the Bible, life begins at conception. Reference after reference is found of this. Babies in the womb are referred to as "children" and several instances, the Bible indicates they were given souls by God while in the womb, not after they were born. This modern idea of "personhood" just recently emerged as an excuse to justify abortions.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 03:51 PM
are you judging what sort of Christian I am?

lol

No, I am calling you a liar.

maineman
12-09-2006, 03:55 PM
I do not personally believe that fetuses in the early stages of development are human life. I do not personally believe that Jesus would have thought so either...but that is, admittedly, just my own opinion. Now if you could find me something Jesus said that would prove that opinion false, I would be interested in reading it...if not, you've got an opinion about what Jesus would have thought about something and I have a different opinion. It has nothing to do with my party affiliation and it has little to do with my faith. I do not think that abortions are murder, because I do not think that fetuses are human, so I really have never felt a conflict between my faith and my begrudging acceptance of a woman's right to chose what happens within her own body. I am far from "pro-abortion". I would not recommend my daughter have one...I would prefer that women take pregnancies to term and give babies up for adoption, but I am not a woman and I am not about to tell a woman she MUST take a pregnancy to term if she is adamantly opposed to doing so. and I DO NOT find that position to be at odds with my faith.

maineman
12-09-2006, 03:57 PM
Go read the Bible, life begins at conception. Reference after reference is found of this. Babies in the womb are referred to as "children" and several instances, the Bible indicates they were given souls by God while in the womb, not after they were born. This modern idea of "personhood" just recently emerged as an excuse to justify abortions.

so...in answer to my question, I guess I know what day YOU celebrate. I disagree. and I have not lied on this site or any other...ever.

maineman
12-09-2006, 03:58 PM
No, I am calling you a liar.

something I guarantee you would never do to my face and walk away unscathed.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 04:08 PM
"typical of your type of Christian who don't feel the need to DO anything..."

This statement is not a scoff, it is a direct judgement of my Christian faith.

"YOur kind of Christian turns my stomach..."

This statement is not a scoff, it is a direct judgement of my Christian faith.

"NO ONE who claims to love Jesus would EVER so cavelierly ignore his FIRST AND GREATEST COMMANDMENT as you do."

This statement is not a scoff, it is a direct judgement of my Christian faith.

"No doubt, when Dixie arrives in Hell, he will be utterly surprised."

This statement is not a scoff, it is a direct judgement of my Christian faith.

"Unlike you, as a Christian, I feel compelled to follow the teachings of Christ."

This statement is not a scoff, it is a direct judgement of my Christian faith.

"you faux Christian"

This statement is not a scoff, it is a direct judgement of my Christian faith.

Last Sunday I served Communion...

This is a pious statement.

last night was the board of deacon's meeting...

This is a pious statement.

tonight was choir practice...

This is a pious statement.

this Sunday I read the New Testament reading and my family lights the advent candle.

This is a pious statement.

I am a devout Christian and am insulted by your rantings that would suggest otherwise.

This is a pious statement.

I have lived amongst muslims... not on some army base guarded from them, but amongst them. I know that they are peaceful people...from years of experience...experience you do not share.

This is a pious statement.

My faith is shown in my actions.

This is a pious statement.

Unlike you, as a Christian, I feel compelled to follow the teachings of Christ.

This is a pious statement.

You really need to read the Bible before you preach from it. Shame on you.

This is a pious statement.

==============================


These are things I found in THIS thread alone. So, we've established, you are indeed a liar. You are as pious as the day is long, and a hypocrite who is casting judgement on others, as well. I certainly hope you will have a long talk with God about this, and repent your sins before you die. Eternity is a long time to burn in Hell.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 04:13 PM
I do not personally believe that fetuses in the early stages of development are human life. I do not personally believe that Jesus would have thought so either...but that is, admittedly, just my own opinion. Now if you could find me something Jesus said that would prove that opinion false, I would be interested in reading it...if not, you've got an opinion about what Jesus would have thought about something and I have a different opinion. It has nothing to do with my party affiliation and it has little to do with my faith. I do not think that abortions are murder, because I do not think that fetuses are human, so I really have never felt a conflict between my faith and my begrudging acceptance of a woman's right to chose what happens within her own body. I am far from "pro-abortion". I would not recommend my daughter have one...I would prefer that women take pregnancies to term and give babies up for adoption, but I am not a woman and I am not about to tell a woman she MUST take a pregnancy to term if she is adamantly opposed to doing so. and I DO NOT find that position to be at odds with my faith.


See... the problem is, God didn't say that YOU could decide what is or isn't a human. If a fetus is not human, what form of life is it? Because, it is indeed living, otherwise, it would not have to be killed.

There are a number of passages in the Bible, which relate to the taking of innocent life, and particularly, the life of children. As I said before, the references in the Bible speak of "children" in the womb, not "fetuses". Let's turn the tables... can you show us where God or Jesus condones abortion?

Cypress
12-09-2006, 04:39 PM
Go read the Bible, life begins at conception. Reference after reference is found of this. Babies in the womb are referred to as "children" and several instances, the Bible indicates they were given souls by God while in the womb, not after they were born. This modern idea of "personhood" just recently emerged as an excuse to justify abortions.


Life begins at conception. Reference after reference is found of this. Babies in the womb are referred to as "children" and several instances, the Bible indicates they were given souls by God while in the womb, not after they were born.


You redneck bible-thumper: abortions have been performed for thousands of years in all societies, including christian ones. Attempts to outlaw abortions didn't even happen until the mid 1800s.

You moron: here's the real test to see if you think a fertilized embryo is a "human child":


-All of us might run into a burning building to save a human child.

-We all KNOW you wouldn't run into a burning fertility clinic, risking your life, to save a petri dish of fertilized blastocysts. Ergo, you're full of shit.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 04:45 PM
I do not personally believe that fetuses in the early stages of development are human life. I do not personally believe that Jesus would have thought so either...but that is, admittedly, just my own opinion. Now if you could find me something Jesus said that would prove that opinion false, I would be interested in reading it...

I'll repost this, since you obviously missed it the first time...

The very idea of intentionally killing an unborn child—or even worse, killing them by the hundreds and thousands,—is totally foreign to the lives of God's people in the Bible, and so it is never mentioned. However, the Bible, as well as Jesus, makes it very clear this is forbidden in the eyes of God.

"And Jesus called a little child unto Him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in My name receiveth Me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."—Matthew 18:2-5.

"Whosoever shall receive this child in My name receiveth Me, and whosoever shall receive Me, receiveth Him that sent Me. For he that is least among you all, the same shall be greatest."—Luke 9:48.

Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person."—Deuteronomy 27:24.

"These . . things doth the Lord hate: . . A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood."—Proverbs 6:1617.

The prophet Amos condemns the Ammonites "because they ripped open expectant mothers in Gilead" (Amos 1:13).

"Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward" (Psalm 127:3).

"You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15).

"God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).

"Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17) and Christ reaffirms it (Matthew 19:18 - notice that He mentions this commandment first). The Book of Revelation affirms that (unrepentant) murderers cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (Revelation 22:15).

"They mutilated their sons and daughters by fire…till the Lord, in his great anger against Israel, put them away out of his sight" (2 Kings 17:17-18)

Genesis 9:6 - Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.

In the Bible, our worth as a human being or our "personhood" does not depend on how far along on life’s journey we have come. Instead, we are beings who are made in the image of God (Gen. 1:27). Each person is valuable because God created him or her that way. It doesn’t matter whether a person is still in his mother’s womb, a newborn, a toddler, an adolescent, or a senior citizen. Only quite recently has the concept of "personhood" surfaced. There are some in our society who want to find a developmental stage where they can justify that the fetus is only a collection of organs, not really a person. Carl Sagan put that fetal stage at perhaps 6 months, when the cerebral cortex is in place. Only then, he feels, should we confer "personhood" on a fetus.4 Such ideas are clearly subjective. It would seem that these discussions of personhood only arose from a need to justify the act of abortion. Certainly, they are not expressed in the Bible. Quite to the contrary, the Bible story shows that "personhood", or reaching one’s full potential, comes from knowing God. A person develops and is preserved through his communion with a personal God who reveals Himself to us in love. The Bible consistently links our "personhood" to the time we are formed (conception), or even before in God’s "mind".

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 04:50 PM
Prissy, I posed a question above, and I would like you to answer it... If a fetus is not human life, what sort of life is it? It's not a plant, it's not another form of animal, it's not a bacteria or fungus, it is definitely living, otherwise, it wouldn't need to be killed. So, answer the question, what kind of life is a fetus, in your profound opinion?

Jarod
12-09-2006, 04:54 PM
Excuse me, I need to see the actual quote, so I can see what context it was presented. I think you've misconstrued something I said, as usual. Jesus never spoke out against the punishment ordained by God in the Old Testament, to stone people to death, if they were guilty of murder. I'm not trying to "get out of" anything, I just need to see what you're talking about before I can comment fully on it.



Ohhh, now you are adding "if they are guilty of murder."

I know your game Einstein!

Jarod
12-09-2006, 04:56 PM
I agree with that statement, you didn't "own" me.



Full circle now....

Come on EINSTEIN you can do better than that!

Cypress
12-09-2006, 04:57 PM
Prissy, I posed a question above, and I would like you to answer it... If a fetus is not human life, what sort of life is it? It's not a plant, it's not another form of animal, it's not a bacteria or fungus, it is definitely living, otherwise, it wouldn't need to be killed. So, answer the question, what kind of life is a fetus, in your profound opinion?


It's not a "life". It's a fetus, potentially capable of developing into a human life.


Would you run into a burning fertitility clinic, risking your life, to save a petri dish of embryos?

Jarod
12-09-2006, 04:57 PM
Prissy, I posed a question above, and I would like you to answer it... If a fetus is not human life, what sort of life is it? It's not a plant, it's not another form of animal, it's not a bacteria or fungus, it is definitely living, otherwise, it wouldn't need to be killed. So, answer the question, what kind of life is a fetus, in your profound opinion?



Many people belive Its not a life.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:02 PM
abortions have been performed for thousands of years in all societies, including christian ones.

Oh, I know... "They mutilated their sons and daughters by fire…till the Lord, in his great anger against Israel, put them away out of his sight" (2 Kings 17:17-18)

God has always opposed the intentional and malicious taking of innocent human life, and actually mandates a severe punishment of death by stoning, for doing so. In one instance, he instructed his followers to kill off an entire civilization of people, because they were sacrificing their children.


Abortion clinics, and partial birth abortions, or abortion on demand, was not a part of Biblical life, and I don't imagine they could even fathom such inhumane cruelty and evil. In the few instances of people who harmed children, or killed the innocent, God was swift and severe in his punishment. That is a fact that can't be refuted.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:04 PM
Ohhh, now you are adding "if they are guilty of murder."

I know your game Einstein!

No, I didn't "add" it, you subtracted it when you quoted me, go back and read my original comment, it's in the part of the sentence preceeding what you posted. I'm sure this was just an oversight on your part, right?

Cypress
12-09-2006, 05:04 PM
It's not a "life". It's a fetus, potentially capable of developing into a human life.


Would you run into a burning fertitility clinic, risking your life, to save a petri dish of embryos?

I see you keep avoiding answering this: because the answer is NO. You wouldn't run into a burning fertility clinic, potentially leaving your kids fatherless, to save a petri dish of embryos


Which means, either you've been lying, or you are full of shit when you claim that a soul and a human life is created at the moment of conception. Because you'd let those embryos burn, and you wouldn't lift a finger to run in and save the petri dish.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:05 PM
It's not a "life". It's a fetus, potentially capable of developing into a human life.


Would you run into a burning fertitility clinic, risking your life, to save a petri dish of embryos?

So, a fetus is not a living organism? Is that what you are saying?

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:07 PM
Many people belive Its not a life.

Well, if it's not alive, why does it need to be killed or aborted?

If it IS alive, what form of life is it? There is no such thing as something that is alive, yet not living, that is a contradiction of logic.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:10 PM
I see you keep avoiding answering this: because the answer is NO. You wouldn't run into a burning fertility clinic, potentially leaving your kids fatherless, to save a petri dish of embryos


Which means, either you've been lying, or you are full of shit when you claim that a soul and a human life is created at the moment of conception. Because you'd let those embryos burn, and you wouldn't lift a finger to run in and save the petri dish.

I'm sorry, but science doesn't determine things based on hypothetical scenarios or what people would do in given circumstance. I wouldn't go into a burning building to save you, and I think we can conclude you are a human. So, your little experiment fails the test of logic and scientific accuracy.

Jarod
12-09-2006, 05:10 PM
Well, if it's not alive, why does it need to be killed or aborted?

If it IS alive, what form of life is it? There is no such thing as something that is alive, yet not living, that is a contradiction of logic.

1) Aborted and killed are not the same thing.
2) I never said it needed to be aborted.

IT needs to be aborted if someone who believes its not alive yet wants to prevent it from becoming alive, EINSTEIN.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:16 PM
1) Aborted and killed are not the same thing.
2) I never said it needed to be aborted.

IT needs to be aborted if someone who believes its not alive yet wants to prevent it from becoming alive, EINSTEIN.


Abortion means to terminate something, doesn't it? It's my understanding, abortion is the termination of the life process of a human fetus, am I mistaken on that? If it's not alive, it wouldn't need to be aborted.

You can believe it's not alive just like I can believe you are not alive, that doesn't make it so. There is proof that a fetus is a living organism, just as there is proof you are alive, so I don't know where you get that it isn't, a fetus is most certainly alive. You seem to be denying reality here, and contradicting logic.

Jarod
12-09-2006, 05:19 PM
Abortion means to terminate something, doesn't it? It's my understanding, abortion is the termination of the life process of a human fetus, am I mistaken on that? If it's not alive, it wouldn't need to be aborted.

You can believe it's not alive just like I can believe you are not alive, that doesn't make it so. There is proof that a fetus is a living organism, just as there is proof you are alive, so I don't know where you get that it isn't, a fetus is most certainly alive. You seem to be denying reality here, and contradicting logic.

Abortion is to terminate something, not necessarly life.

You lack an understanding of basic reasoning EINSTEIN.

Cypress
12-09-2006, 05:23 PM
I'm sorry, but science doesn't determine things based on hypothetical scenarios or what people would do in given circumstance. I wouldn't go into a burning building to save you, and I think we can conclude you are a human. So, your little experiment fails the test of logic and scientific accuracy.


Everybody knows you wouldn't run into a burning fertitily clincic, risking your life, to save a petri dish of embryos. Your lying, if you think you would.

And you're the one who made the big deal about a soul, and a human life being created at conception. A human life every bit as worthy as your or my life.

But, you'd let those embryos burn, in the fertitiliy clinic. You know you would. You wouldn't risk your life, running through flames and collapsing building parts, to save the petri dish.

You'd let them burn.

Which means, your either a phony christain who espouses phony "values".

Or, you're a liar.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:23 PM
Abortion is to terminate something, not necessarly life.

Well, yes, abortion means to terminate something... so in regards to aborting a human fetus, what is the abortion terminating?

maineman
12-09-2006, 05:25 PM
See... the problem is, God didn't say that YOU could decide what is or isn't a human. If a fetus is not human, what form of life is it? Because, it is indeed living, otherwise, it would not have to be killed.

There are a number of passages in the Bible, which relate to the taking of innocent life, and particularly, the life of children. As I said before, the references in the Bible speak of "children" in the womb, not "fetuses". Let's turn the tables... can you show us where God or Jesus condones abortion?

I don't KNOW what form of life it is. I know that a fertilized chicken egg is life, but it is not yet a chicken.... I don't find any passage that condones abortion. Do YOU find a passage that condones SHOCK and AWE? that condones dropping hundreds of 500 lb bombs on cities filled with innocent civilians?

And I certainly don't CONDONE abortion either.... as I said, I think it is an onerous process...I would not recommend my daughter ever have such a procedure (except in the case where she had become impregnated by YOU, of course) The only thing more onerous than abortion, from my perspective, is allowing government to become so intimately involved in the inner workings of a woman's anatomy that they could legally ban the procedure.

maineman
12-09-2006, 05:27 PM
Abortion is to terminate something, not necessarly life.

Well, yes, abortion means to terminate something... so in regards to aborting a human fetus, what is the abortion terminating?
a pregnancy

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:30 PM
Everybody knows you wouldn't run into a burning fertitily clincic, risking your life, to save a petri dish of embryos. Your lying, if you think you would.

And you're the one who made the big deal about a soul, and a human life being created at conception. A human life every bit as worthy as your or my life.

But, you'd let those embryos burn, in the fertitiliy clinic. You know you would. You wouldn't risk your life, running through flames and collapsing building parts, to save the petri dish.

You'd let them burn.

Which means, your either a phony christain who espouses phony "values".

Or, you're a liar.

You're entitled to your opinion, I suppose, but I've never known of any valid scientific evaluation to be based on such a hypothetical scenario. It's almost as idiotic as the people who thought it a valid way to prove someone was a witch, by throwing them into the river and seeing if they float or sink.

Maybe you think the moon is made of blue cheese too? I mean, it looks like it could be, and a lot of people used to think that, so maybe they are right?

As I said, I wouldn't run into a burning building to save you, but that doesn't mean you aren't a human being. Your logic is flawed.

Now, answer the damn question... If a fetus is not human life, what sort of living organism is it?

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:31 PM
a pregnancy

And now, explain what a pregnancy is, exactly?

maineman
12-09-2006, 05:33 PM
"typical of your type of Christian who don't feel the need to DO anything..."

This statement is not a scoff, it is a direct judgement of my Christian faith.

"YOur kind of Christian turns my stomach..."

This statement is not a scoff, it is a direct judgement of my Christian faith.

"NO ONE who claims to love Jesus would EVER so cavelierly ignore his FIRST AND GREATEST COMMANDMENT as you do."

This statement is not a scoff, it is a direct judgement of my Christian faith.

"No doubt, when Dixie arrives in Hell, he will be utterly surprised."

This statement is not a scoff, it is a direct judgement of my Christian faith.

"Unlike you, as a Christian, I feel compelled to follow the teachings of Christ."

This statement is not a scoff, it is a direct judgement of my Christian faith.

"you faux Christian"

This statement is not a scoff, it is a direct judgement of my Christian faith.

Last Sunday I served Communion...

This is a pious statement.

last night was the board of deacon's meeting...

This is a pious statement.

tonight was choir practice...

This is a pious statement.

this Sunday I read the New Testament reading and my family lights the advent candle.

This is a pious statement.

I am a devout Christian and am insulted by your rantings that would suggest otherwise.

This is a pious statement.

I have lived amongst muslims... not on some army base guarded from them, but amongst them. I know that they are peaceful people...from years of experience...experience you do not share.

This is a pious statement.

My faith is shown in my actions.

This is a pious statement.

Unlike you, as a Christian, I feel compelled to follow the teachings of Christ.

This is a pious statement.

You really need to read the Bible before you preach from it. Shame on you.

This is a pious statement.

==============================


These are things I found in THIS thread alone. So, we've established, you are indeed a liar. You are as pious as the day is long, and a hypocrite who is casting judgement on others, as well. I certainly hope you will have a long talk with God about this, and repent your sins before you die. Eternity is a long time to burn in Hell.

I have read your opinions as to character of my sentences above. I disagree with them. I am not a liar. I am not a hypocrite. I am certainly not pious.....my minister would piss his pants laughing if someone were to accuse me of piety.

and as I have said, I have done and will no doubt do again things that are more onerous to God than calling you on your faux Christianity. I will work hard to be a better Christian and to be a better person in the years ahead as I have tried to do up til now.

How do you intend to repent for the sins of cheering the death of thousands of innocents as you did on the eve of our ground invasion of Iraq when our bombers dropped hundreds of deadly 500 lb bombs on a densely populated urban area filled with innocent civilians? Do you think that God MIGHT find that a bit more onerous than my suggesting that you talk you faith a lot louder than you walk it? I certainly hope so.

Cypress
12-09-2006, 05:34 PM
You're entitled to your opinion, I suppose, but I've never known of any valid scientific evaluation to be based on such a hypothetical scenario. It's almost as idiotic as the people who thought it a valid way to prove someone was a witch, by throwing them into the river and seeing if they float or sink.

Maybe you think the moon is made of blue cheese too? I mean, it looks like it could be, and a lot of people used to think that, so maybe they are right?

As I said, I wouldn't run into a burning building to save you, but that doesn't mean you aren't a human being. Your logic is flawed.

Now, answer the damn question... If a fetus is not human life, what sort of living organism is it?

I answered your first question, on whether an embryo is a life.

YOUR TURN. Answer my question:

Would you run into a burning fertility clinic, risking grave injury or death, to save a petri dish of embryos? Embryos that you claim are a human life, and have a soul??

maineman
12-09-2006, 05:35 PM
And now, explain what a pregnancy is, exactly?


the prelude to human life

maineman
12-09-2006, 05:36 PM
I answered your first question, on whether an embryo is a life.

YOUR TURN. Answer my question:

Would you run into a burning fertility clinic, risking grave injury or death, to save a petri dish of embryos? Embryos that you claim are a human life, and have a soul??

Dixie is a chickenhawk...he wouldn't go out of his way to save anybody, but he would certainly wave pompoms while YOUR children went and died FOR his stupid ideas.

Jarod
12-09-2006, 05:36 PM
Abortion is to terminate something, not necessarly life.

Well, yes, abortion means to terminate something... so in regards to aborting a human fetus, what is the abortion terminating?

The further development of the fetus.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:38 PM
I don't KNOW what form of life it is.

Well, sure you do! It's a human life! It simply can't be any other form of life. It is a human life at its earliest stage of development, a human being in their most innocent form. As humans go, the unborn are the weakest among us, which means, in God's eyes, they are the greatest.

And I certainly don't CONDONE abortion either....

Well, yes you do! You support it, condone it, and stand up for women to have the right to do it! You oppose those who speak out against it, you chastise those who condemn it, and you will continue to make absurd examples to justify your viewpoints, in defiance of God's will.

Cypress
12-09-2006, 05:39 PM
As I said, I wouldn't run into a burning building to save you, but that doesn't mean you aren't a human being.

Not very christian of you.

If I saw you drowning or burning, I'd try to help.

Ever gonna answer my quesiton? Its a simple yes or no question.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:43 PM
I answered your first question, on whether an embryo is a life.

No, you avoided my question and gave me your invalid opinion. I'll ask you again, what kind of life form is a fetus, if not human?

YOUR TURN. Answer my question:

Would you run into a burning fertility clinic, risking grave injury or death, to save a petri dish of embryos? Embryos that you claim are a human life, and have a soul??

I answered your question. No, and I also wouldn't risk grave injury to save your life. This is not a valid scientific criteria for determining a damn thing. It's nice sophistry, it's interesting rhetoric, but it's not valid scientific evaluation or observation.

maineman
12-09-2006, 05:44 PM
I don't KNOW what form of life it is.

Well, sure you do! It's a human life! It simply can't be any other form of life. It is a human life at its earliest stage of development, a human being in their most innocent form. As humans go, the unborn are the weakest among us, which means, in God's eyes, they are the greatest.

And I certainly don't CONDONE abortion either....

Well, yes you do! You support it, condone it, and stand up for women to have the right to do it! You oppose those who speak out against it, you chastise those who condemn it, and you will continue to make absurd examples to justify your viewpoints, in defiance of God's will.

How pious of you to claim to know God's will on this issue.

I do NOT think that a fetus is a person any more than I think a fertilized egg is a chicken.

and I do not condone abortion. I do NOT condone government telling a woman what she cannot do to her own body.

Cypress
12-09-2006, 05:45 PM
Dixie is a chickenhawk...he wouldn't go out of his way to save anybody, but he would certainly wave pompoms while YOUR children went and died FOR his stupid ideas.


It's becoming apparent that Dixie doesn't think embryos have souls, or are human life. Evidently, he'd let them burn, rather than try to save them from a burning fertility clinic.

This simple real-world test, demonstrates Dixie doesnt' really think life begins at concpeption, and a soul is created at conception.

Cypress
12-09-2006, 05:46 PM
I answered your first question, on whether an embryo is a life.

No, you avoided my question and gave me your invalid opinion. I'll ask you again, what kind of life form is a fetus, if not human?

YOUR TURN. Answer my question:

Would you run into a burning fertility clinic, risking grave injury or death, to save a petri dish of embryos? Embryos that you claim are a human life, and have a soul??

I answered your question. No, and I also wouldn't risk grave injury to save your life. This is not a valid scientific criteria for determining a damn thing. It's nice sophistry, it's interesting rhetoric, but it's not valid scientific evaluation or observation.

So you won't answer the question.

What a chicken.

You know you'd let those poor little embryos - human lives with souls, every last one - burn while you watched.

Jarod
12-09-2006, 05:46 PM
I don't KNOW what form of life it is.

Well, sure you do! It's a human life! It simply can't be any other form of life. It is a human life at its earliest stage of development, a human being in their most innocent form. As humans go, the unborn are the weakest among us, which means, in God's eyes, they are the greatest.

And I certainly don't CONDONE abortion either....

Well, yes you do! You support it, condone it, and stand up for women to have the right to do it! You oppose those who speak out against it, you chastise those who condemn it, and you will continue to make absurd examples to justify your viewpoints, in defiance of God's will.

Beliving something should be legal is not the same as condoning it, Einstein.

I believe Satin worshp should be legal, I surely do not condone it!

Jarod
12-09-2006, 05:48 PM
Abortion is to terminate something, not necessarly life.

Well, yes, abortion means to terminate something... so in regards to aborting a human fetus, what is the abortion terminating?



Further development of the fetus.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:49 PM
As I said, I wouldn't run into a burning building to save you, but that doesn't mean you aren't a human being.

Not very christian of you.

If I saw you drowning or burning, I'd try to help.

Ever gonna answer my quesiton? Its a simple yes or no question.

Well, I don't see in my Bible, where it says that I am supposed to risk my life to save you or anyone else. I'm sorry about that, I wish I could help, but it's not a part of Christianity, so far as I can tell. I would try to stop someone from setting your building on fire, just as I would try to stop someone from setting the building full of living human embryos on fire, that is my duty as a Christian. How many abortions of living human fetuses have you tried to stop? Any?

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:51 PM
Further development of the fetus.

How can a fetus develop if it's not living?

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 05:56 PM
I do NOT think that a fetus is a person any more than I think a fertilized egg is a chicken.

If a fetus is not human, what kind of living organism is it? Simple question!

And YES, a fertilized chicken egg, is indeed an unborn chicken, it can't be anything else. We call it an "egg" just as we call an unborn human a "fetus" but that doesn't change what sort of life form it is.

Jarod
12-09-2006, 06:05 PM
How can a fetus develop if it's not living?

Plenty of things divelop, Einstein....


Western Civilization
A Hart Condition
A tumor
foot odor...

None of thses things are alive...!

Jarod
12-09-2006, 06:06 PM
I do NOT think that a fetus is a person any more than I think a fertilized egg is a chicken.

If a fetus is not human, what kind of living organism is it? Simple question!

And YES, a fertilized chicken egg, is indeed an unborn chicken, it can't be anything else. We call it an "egg" just as we call an unborn human a "fetus" but that doesn't change what sort of life form it is.



So a chicken egg is alive, Einstein?

Cypress
12-09-2006, 06:43 PM
Well, I don't see in my Bible, where it says that I am supposed to risk my life to save you or anyone else. I'm sorry about that, I wish I could help, but it's not a part of Christianity, so far as I can tell. I would try to stop someone from setting your building on fire, just as I would try to stop someone from setting the building full of living human embryos on fire, that is my duty as a Christian. How many abortions of living human fetuses have you tried to stop? Any?


Well, I don't see in my Bible, where it says that I am supposed to risk my life to save you or anyone else.


Well, okay, you're a chickenhawk who would never risk anything to help a human being in mortal danger. Fair enough.


Let's put it this way: We expect firemen to risk their necks to save children from a burning building.

Do you expect firement to risk their lives, to save a petri dish of embryos from a burning fertility clinic?

Jarod
12-09-2006, 06:45 PM
THe plot of a book divelopes.. Einstein, are you claiming books are alive?

maineman
12-09-2006, 07:12 PM
I do NOT think that a fetus is a person any more than I think a fertilized egg is a chicken.

If a fetus is not human, what kind of living organism is it? Simple question!

And YES, a fertilized chicken egg, is indeed an unborn chicken, it can't be anything else. We call it an "egg" just as we call an unborn human a "fetus" but that doesn't change what sort of life form it is.

can you eat a chicken "over easy"? Can you scramble up a chicken and turn it into an omelet?

maineman
12-09-2006, 07:19 PM
can you deep fly an egg and then slather it with Buffalo sauce and blue cheese?

a pregnancy is a prelude to humanity... it is not yet human in nature, anymore than a chicken egg is a chicken

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 07:49 PM
a pregnancy is a prelude to humanity... it is not yet human in nature, anymore than a chicken egg is a chicken

No, a pregnancy of a human is the incubation of a human life before birth. It is human in nature because it simply can't be any other life form, which is why you can't answer the question. The fact that you understand a chicken comes from a fertilized egg and will eventually becomes a chicken if uninterrupted, demonstrates you understand the biology of chickens. You wouldn't very well argue that a chicken egg could produce a human, or a goose, or a dolphin, because that is not the life form inside of a chicken egg. In fact, it can't be any other life form besides a chicken, it is impossible. If it has been fertilized, and it is being incubated, it is alive, a living, growing organism, and it is a chicken which has yet to be hatched.

The same is true with a fertilized human egg, incubating inside the womb. It is a life form, it is growing and developing, it is not anything other than human life, it's impossible for it to be anything else. If left uninterrupted, it will eventually be a human infant, nothing else.

Previously, you stated that "pregnancy" is what is terminated in an abortion, and this is not actually true. A woman doesn't end her ability to become pregnant through abortion... a hysterectomy would be the termination of pregnancy. An abortion is the termination of the life process of a human embryo, the ending of a human life. The fetus is what is aborted or terminated, not pregnancy.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 07:53 PM
Plenty of things divelop, Einstein....


Western Civilization
A Hart Condition
A tumor
foot odor...

None of thses things are alive...!

None of those things are a fetus. I asked you a specific question regarding fetus... what's the matter Einstein, are you too stupid to read?

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 07:56 PM
So a chicken egg is alive, Einstein?

If it is fertilized and incubated, yes, it is a living organism. It will eventually develop into a mature, fully grown chicken, if Maine doesn't fry it up and make an omlet before it has time to develop.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 08:09 PM
can you eat a chicken "over easy"? Can you scramble up a chicken and turn it into an omelet?

Nope... can a 3-year-old toddler drive a car or play golf? Can a 80-year-old man nurse from his mothers breast? You are simply saying the same thing, just applying it to chicken life forms at different stages of development.

maineman
12-09-2006, 08:24 PM
a pregnancy is a prelude to humanity... it is not yet human in nature, anymore than a chicken egg is a chicken

No, a pregnancy of a human is the incubation of a human life before birth. It is human in nature because it simply can't be any other life form, which is why you can't answer the question. The fact that you understand a chicken comes from a fertilized egg and will eventually becomes a chicken if uninterrupted, demonstrates you understand the biology of chickens. You wouldn't very well argue that a chicken egg could produce a human, or a goose, or a dolphin, because that is not the life form inside of a chicken egg. In fact, it can't be any other life form besides a chicken, it is impossible. If it has been fertilized, and it is being incubated, it is alive, a living, growing organism, and it is a chicken which has yet to be hatched.

The same is true with a fertilized human egg, incubating inside the womb. It is a life form, it is growing and developing, it is not anything other than human life, it's impossible for it to be anything else. If left uninterrupted, it will eventually be a human infant, nothing else.

Previously, you stated that "pregnancy" is what is terminated in an abortion, and this is not actually true. A woman doesn't end her ability to become pregnant through abortion... a hysterectomy would be the termination of pregnancy. An abortion is the termination of the life process of a human embryo, the ending of a human life. The fetus is what is aborted or terminated, not pregnancy.

a hysterectomy would be the termination of the ability to become pregnant in the future. An abortion is the termination of a particular pregnancy. A pregnancy that is the prelude to human life..... the egg is not the chicken, just as the fetus is not the man, but the prelude to it.

IF left uninterrupted, it will be a human infant...that is a big and essential "if".An abortion DOES interrupt that process and stop it BEFORE the fetus becomes a human infant.

IF left uninterrupted, the chicken egg will be a chicken.... if not, it will become an omelet.

That is what I believe...and beliveing that - in my opinion - does not make me any less of a Christian. Cheering the delivery of shock and awe does, in MY opinion, make you a Christian in name only. Claiming that slaughtering Iraqis is perfectly acceptable in God's eyes because they are not our next door neighbors might make you feel good today, but my opinion based upon my observation of such an attitude is that it will not play that well with Jesus when YOUR judgment day comes.

maineman
12-09-2006, 08:29 PM
Nope... can a 3-year-old toddler drive a car or play golf? Can a 80-year-old man nurse from his mothers breast? You are simply saying the same thing, just applying it to chicken life forms at different stages of development.

are driving and golfing and nursing requirements of humanity? no. Are feet, a beak, and feathers a requirement of chickenhood? Yes.

My wife and I are planning on building a new home soon. Is the hole in the ground a home? Is it a home when the septic system is installed? Will it be a home when the foundation is poured? no. When will it be a HOME? when we move into it. A fetus becomes a human when it has the capacity of living independent of its mother's life support system. Until then, it is not really a human BEING, it is the prelude to a human being.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 08:47 PM
a hysterectomy would be the termination of the ability to become pregnant in the future.

Correct, the "termination" of pregnancy. That's what I said.

An abortion is the termination of a particular pregnancy.

Correct, the termination of the life process. The intentional and deliberate ending of innocent human life, the most innocent among us.

A pregnancy that is the prelude to human life.....

No prelude, it is life or it wouldn't require termination to cease to exist. It is human life, because it can't physically be any other form of life.

the egg is not the chicken, just as the fetus is not the man, but the prelude to it.

An egg from a chicken is not the same as an egg from a turtle, is it? Of course not, therefore, a chicken egg is chicken life form, a turtle egg is turtle life form, it's not the prelude to anything if it is already growing, developing, and alive. An infertile female egg is the prelude to a human life form, once it has been fertilized and starts to grow, it is no longer the prelude to anything, other than a more advanced form of what it already is, a human life.

IF left uninterrupted, it will be a human infant...

Correct, which is why it requires termination to not reach that stage of development. Once it is an infant, if left uninterrupted, it will become a small child, then an adolescent, then an adult, and it will be human life until it is terminated, or expires. At no point is it ever anything other than human life, once conception has begun this process. You can make all the arguments to the contrary you like, this is just simple biology.

An abortion DOES interrupt that process and stop it BEFORE the fetus becomes a human infant.

Correct, and if you put a gun to a teenager's head and pull the trigger, you effectively interrupt the process of that teenager becoming an adult.

IF left uninterrupted, the chicken egg will be a chicken.... if not, it will become an omelet.

Correct, and it can't be any other life form, except that of a chicken. Even as an egg in an omelet, it is still the matter defined as that of a chicken. Chicken eggs don't come from any other source, and there is no way to produce a chicken egg by any other means than a chicken.

That is what I believe...and beliveing that - in my opinion - does not make me any less of a Christian.

I've never stated that you were less of a Christian for your ignorance.

Cheering the delivery of shock and awe does, in MY opinion, make you a Christian in name only.

And I pray that you seek forgiveness for casting judgement on my faith.

Claiming that slaughtering Iraqis is perfectly acceptable in God's eyes because they are not our next door neighbors might make you feel good today, but my opinion based upon my observation of such an attitude is that it will not play that well with Jesus when YOUR judgment day comes.

I didn't make that decision, so I doubt I will be held personally accountable for it, if in fact, Jesus sees things your way.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 08:58 PM
are driving and golfing and nursing requirements of humanity? no. Are feet, a beak, and feathers a requirement of chickenhood? Yes.


Chickenhood? ...that's a good one!

Nope. The fact that you understand an egg will hatch into a chicken proves this. The fertilized and incubating egg, can't be defined as any other life form, besides that of a chicken, nor would anyone attempt to so foolishly define it as such. Do infants have beards or breasts? What about an infant born with no legs or arms, are they less of a human life form?

The fetus is a living thing, you can't dispute this, it has its own nervous system, heartbeat, DNA, and brain function. It simply can't be defined as anything other than living, and anything other than human life. Because it has not fully matured, or reached independent capacity, doesn't mean it's something different than human life, any more than a chicken egg is an apple.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 09:21 PM
A fetus becomes a human when it has the capacity of living independent of its mother's life support system. Until then, it is not really a human BEING, it is the prelude to a human being.

This is not true, a fetus is a living human life form, with its own DNA, nervous system, brain function and heartbeat. It will develop into an infant human being, at which time it will still be dependent on the mother, or someone, to nourish it, support its life, and allow it to reach its next stage of development. It can be no other form of living being, other than human, we've established this through simple biology already.

You can keep arguing that a growing and living human fetus is something other than human life, all you like... you've given me NO supporting evidence for this opinion, and without any supporting evidence, your argument fails. Sorry.

Here... let me make it easier for you... Once conception has occurred, other than time, what other elements or ingredients are needed to make it a human life? You keep saying it's not human life or a human being, but you need to indicate, what is needed or required after conception to transform it into human life. How can it change what it is, if there is no change in properties?

As for your house building analogy, it really doesn't apply to what we're discussing with regard to physical biology of living things, but I thought of this and wanted to throw it in the mix... IF I came along and filled your hole full of water, making it impossible for you to build your house, would you consider that I had destroyed your future home, or merely built you a swimming pool? Would you sue me or thank me? I think we know the answer!

maineman
12-09-2006, 09:31 PM
dixie...we have a difference of opinion... which mirrors the difference of oipinion society has about abortion.

I for one think that the lives of LIVING BREATHING WALKING TALKING humans for which there is no such difference of opinion...like the lives of the thousands of innocent iraqis slaughtered by our display of shock and awe which you enthusiastically cheered, are way more valuable and meaningful than a handful of cells which may or may not make it all the way through the gestation process to become a human life.....you want to make a huge deal about what a great person you are championing the "life" of zygotes, yet you think absolutely nothing about enthusiastically cheering the death of real human lives..... your hypocrisy is infinite and profound.

maineman
12-09-2006, 09:34 PM
A fetus becomes a human when it has the capacity of living independent of its mother's life support system. Until then, it is not really a human BEING, it is the prelude to a human being.

This is not true, a fetus is a living human life form, with its own DNA, nervous system, brain function and heartbeat. It will develop into an infant human being, at which time it will still be dependent on the mother, or someone, to nourish it, support its life, and allow it to reach its next stage of development. It can be no other form of living being, other than human, we've established this through simple biology already.

You can keep arguing that a growing and living human fetus is something other than human life, all you like... you've given me NO supporting evidence for this opinion, and without any supporting evidence, your argument fails. Sorry.

Here... let me make it easier for you... Once conception has occurred, other than time, what other elements or ingredients are needed to make it a human life? You keep saying it's not human life or a human being, but you need to indicate, what is needed or required after conception to transform it into human life. How can it change what it is, if there is no change in properties?

As for your house building analogy, it really doesn't apply to what we're discussing with regard to physical biology of living things, but I thought of this and wanted to throw it in the mix... IF I came along and filled your hole full of water, making it impossible for you to build your house, would you consider that I had destroyed your future home, or merely built you a swimming pool? Would you sue me or thank me? I think we know the answer!


and if you came along and ripped the fetus from the belly of my daughter against her will, I would find you and kill you...what a ridiculous analogy..... swimming pool...HA.... now if I chose to fill in the hole with water and make it a swimming pool....it would be MY hole and MY water and MY pool and none of your concern.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 09:46 PM
are way more valuable and meaningful than a handful of cells which may or may not make it all the way through the gestation process to become a human life.....

Sorry, but biology suggests this is not so. A living growing fetus is not a mere clump of cells that will one day be human life, it is human life already, unless you can define what other element is needed to make it human life.

According to the Word of God, this innocent human life, the weakest among us, are the greatest in his eye. What you consider more or less important is of no consequence to God, I hope you realize this, he doesn't really care what you think about life he creates as a blessing and gift, as the Bible so describes the fetus in the womb.

dixie...we have a difference of opinion...

Yes we do, and your opinion is not based in any relevant facts, or at least, you have yet to present them for consideration here. My opinion is supported by biology and science, which makes it far more valid than yours.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-09-2006, 09:58 PM
swimming pool...HA.... now if I chose to fill in the hole with water and make it a swimming pool....it would be MY hole and MY water and MY pool and none of your concern.

Right, so the nature of the hole can change or be altered, unlike a life form. If you decide you want a swimming pool, that is what the hole becomes, if a mother decides she wants a baby moose, she can't change the human fetus inside her. If you wanted chicken for dinner, you wouldn't go out and buy fertilized and incubated eggs, although these eggs are a living chicken life form, and eventually you could raise them into edible chickens, but if you changed your mind and wanted beef for dinner, you couldn't make the eggs hatch cows.

You are trying to apply an analogy about a building project, to the biology of life, and the two things just don't apply to one another.

uscitizen
12-10-2006, 05:14 AM
And this thread too turns to abortion ......hmmm

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-10-2006, 10:57 AM
And this thread too turns to abortion ......hmmm

Yeah, and what's freakin hilarious to me is this...

dixie...we have a difference of opinion...

Duh! No shit, Sherlock! I think that has been established already!

It's amazing how Maineman can play the chess game to the final move, then just before his opponent yells 'checkmate' he looks at his watch and says... My goodness, look at the time, I didn't realize it was so late, we'll just have to call this a draw!

In summary, I have presented hard scientific and biological evidence that a fetus is a living human life, I have presented evidence that God and Jesus oppose the taking of innocent human life, and I have proven that no other argument can be made on these things from an ethical, religious or scientific standpoint, with any validity whatsoever. Maine has presented his beliefs, his opinions, and his irrelevant analogies with chicken eggs and building projects.

Yes, we DO have a difference of opinion, that's why one of us is absolutely right and one of us is dead wrong. Of course, in Maine's eyes, I am a lesser Christian than he, because he has deemed me a fake, and he has participated in the choir and served communion, so it must be me who is wrong here. What a JOKE!

Pft! :rant:

uscitizen
12-10-2006, 11:36 AM
Dix, What would be suprising is if he did not have a difference of opinion with you ;)

maineman
12-10-2006, 11:45 AM
Yeah, and what's freakin hilarious to me is this...

dixie...we have a difference of opinion...

Duh! No shit, Sherlock! I think that has been established already!

It's amazing how Maineman can play the chess game to the final move, then just before his opponent yells 'checkmate' he looks at his watch and says... My goodness, look at the time, I didn't realize it was so late, we'll just have to call this a draw!

In summary, I have presented hard scientific and biological evidence that a fetus is a living human life, I have presented evidence that God and Jesus oppose the taking of innocent human life, and I have proven that no other argument can be made on these things from an ethical, religious or scientific standpoint, with any validity whatsoever. Maine has presented his beliefs, his opinions, and his irrelevant analogies with chicken eggs and building projects.

Yes, we DO have a difference of opinion, that's why one of us is absolutely right and one of us is dead wrong. Of course, in Maine's eyes, I am a lesser Christian than he, because he has deemed me a fake, and he has participated in the choir and served communion, so it must be me who is wrong here. What a JOKE!

Pft! :rant:

Sorry...I just got home from church.... my son, the choir director, and I sang an alto-tenor duet by Handel.... lot's of fun.

Dixie.... we have already established that you are a coward.... and therefore, you would not rush into a burning fertility clinic to save the embryos in petri dishes... I have two simple questions:

1. Would you risk your life and run into a burning building to save your daughter who was trapped inside?

and....


2. Would you risk your life and run into a burning building to save an embryo in a petri dish that was the result of YOUR sperm and your wife's (if you had one, of course) egg?

We are not talking about just any embryo here...we are talking about an embryo that, by your definition, would be your own child...no different in any way from your daughter.

My guess is that you quickly said yes - almost automatically - to the first question... and that you paused a bit before answering the second.

maineman
12-10-2006, 11:47 AM
and I won't be able to check back to read your inspirational response because my son is the artistic director of the Freeport Community Chorus and we are going to attend their Christmas concert this afternoon.

Merry Christmas Dixie.

uscitizen
12-10-2006, 12:04 PM
According to the bible invitro/test tube babies is a sin.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-10-2006, 12:27 PM
Maine, I will tell you, just as I told the other pinhead, this is not a valid scientific way to determine anything at all. It is similar to the Salem judges who threw women into the river, to see if they were witches. It has no basis in fact, and proves nothing.

If the scenario you described were to happen, I would do everything in my power to save the living, growing, human fetus that was my child, and if I couldn't save them, I would mourn the loss no less than if it had been an infant or toddler in the building. I would rest assured that God had preserved their soul in heaven, just the same as if it had been birthed, because I do believe the human life would have a soul from the point it became a human life, conception.

I hope this puts an end to this stupid question, because it's absolutely ridiculous, as well as insulting, and irrelevant to the discussion we are having here. Life begins at conception, there is no way to argue against that, and you have presented nothing to refute this, and you simply can't. This is why you have to go to such outrageous extremes to try and make a point. If your car was rolling off a cliff, would you grab the bumper and try to keep it from careening over the edge? If not, does that mean it wasn't a car? Does that mean you didn't love your car? Does that mean it wasn't as important to you as the car in your garage? You can see where this is just a stupid and ridiculous argument, with no basis and no relevance in establishing the facts of the matter. It's a red herring, a deliberate attempt to bail on the fundamental argument and take the easy way out.

You know, in your heart of hearts, that abortion is wrong. That it's the intentional and malicious taking of innocent human life. You know that God does not condone it and is not okay with it. You know that a living, growing human fetus is indeed a human life, and does indeed have a soul. Yet you will continue to throw out your lame and unfounded arguments and opinions, and pretend you believe something to the contrary. Not only will you take this position, you'll do it with all the pompous and arrogant piety you can muster, because you somehow believe that makes it alright in the eyes of God.

May he have mercy on your soul, is all I have to say.

maineman
12-10-2006, 08:22 PM
and I won't be able to check back to read your inspirational response because my son is the artistic director of the Freeport Community Chorus and we are going to attend their Christmas concert this afternoon.

Merry Christmas Dixie.

Beefy
12-10-2006, 08:28 PM
and I won't be able to check back to read your inspirational response because my son is the artistic director of the Freeport Community Chorus and we are going to attend their Christmas concert this afternoon.

Merry Christmas Dixie.

No piety at all.

Cypress
12-10-2006, 08:57 PM
Dixie.... we have already established that you are a coward.... and therefore, you would not rush into a burning fertility clinic to save the embryos in petri dishes... I have two simple questions:

1. Would you risk your life and run into a burning building to save your daughter who was trapped inside?

and....


2. Would you risk your life and run into a burning building to save an embryo in a petri dish that was the result of YOUR sperm and your wife's (if you had one, of course) egg?


Of course he wouldn't run through flames and collapsing walls to save his embryo in the petri dish.

Which means of course, that Dixie doesn't really think that a soul and a life is created at conception - a life every bit as worthy as yours, mine, or his.

maineman
12-10-2006, 09:12 PM
Maine, I will tell you, just as I told the other pinhead, this is not a valid scientific way to determine anything at all. It is similar to the Salem judges who threw women into the river, to see if they were witches. It has no basis in fact, and proves nothing.

If the scenario you described were to happen, I would do everything in my power to save the living, growing, human fetus that was my child, and if I couldn't save them, I would mourn the loss no less than if it had been an infant or toddler in the building. I would rest assured that God had preserved their soul in heaven, just the same as if it had been birthed, because I do believe the human life would have a soul from the point it became a human life, conception.

I hope this puts an end to this stupid question, because it's absolutely ridiculous, as well as insulting, and irrelevant to the discussion we are having here. Life begins at conception, there is no way to argue against that, and you have presented nothing to refute this, and you simply can't. This is why you have to go to such outrageous extremes to try and make a point. If your car was rolling off a cliff, would you grab the bumper and try to keep it from careening over the edge? If not, does that mean it wasn't a car? Does that mean you didn't love your car? Does that mean it wasn't as important to you as the car in your garage? You can see where this is just a stupid and ridiculous argument, with no basis and no relevance in establishing the facts of the matter. It's a red herring, a deliberate attempt to bail on the fundamental argument and take the easy way out.

You know, in your heart of hearts, that abortion is wrong. That it's the intentional and malicious taking of innocent human life. You know that God does not condone it and is not okay with it. You know that a living, growing human fetus is indeed a human life, and does indeed have a soul. Yet you will continue to throw out your lame and unfounded arguments and opinions, and pretend you believe something to the contrary. Not only will you take this position, you'll do it with all the pompous and arrogant piety you can muster, because you somehow believe that makes it alright in the eyes of God.

May he have mercy on your soul, is all I have to say.

you would have mourned the loss of an embryo in a petri dish as much as you would your daughter? That's bullshit and you know it.

And I do know in my heart of hearts that abortion is wrong.... absolutely.... just like I know that smoking cigarettes is wrong, and sleeping with someone else's wife is wrong.. or... or...or .... there are a lot of things that are "wrong" in this world that I would still not be comfortable with government prohibitions upon....

As I have said countless times, I find abortion to be an onerous and terrible option.... but I find the idea of government directing what happens in a woman's reproductive system to be even more onerous. As a conservative who claims to want government out of our lives, it would seem to me that you would find such intrusion on the part of the government onerous as well.

But then... I remember how you could have cared less that Texas policemen mistakenly broke into an apartment of two gay men who had not broken any laws whatsoever and charged them with sodomy while in the privacy of their own bedrooms, so I guess your claims of conservatism are pretty much bullshit.....

maineman
12-10-2006, 09:14 PM
No piety at all.

none...it was a great concert, by the way...the Portland TV stations were covering it and my son was interviewed about what a turn around he had caused in the chorus since his arrival this fall.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-10-2006, 10:11 PM
you would have mourned the loss of an embryo in a petri dish as much as you would your daughter?

We both know that there would be no living growing human embryo in a petri dish, in an empty burning building. A living growing and viable human embryo can not survive for very long outside of the mother's womb, and the only period of time it would have ever been in a petri dish, was to conduct the invetro-fertilization process. The technician would not have the egg introduced to the sperm in the petri dish and then just leave it in the lab overnight, that isn't how it works, and you are smart enough to know that.

Let's stop being ridiculous here, you know abortion is the intentional taking of human life, and you know that God is not okay with it. Otherwise, you wouldn't have a problem with it, you wouldn't give a shit if your daughter had it done, or anyone else. The fact that you will act like you are all concerned about abortions, is all the proof we need of this.

As I said, may God have mercy on your soul.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-10-2006, 10:14 PM
Which means of course, that Dixie doesn't really think that a soul and a life is created at conception

NO, it is YOU who doesn't believe this. I certainly DO believe this, and that is why I think it is WRONG!


When the heck do you think God gets around to giving the human life a soul? ...Oh, that's right, you don't believe in God or souls, right?

Cypress
12-10-2006, 10:37 PM
you would have mourned the loss of an embryo in a petri dish as much as you would your daughter?

We both know that there would be no living growing human embryo in a petri dish, in an empty burning building. A living growing and viable human embryo can not survive for very long outside of the mother's womb, and the only period of time it would have ever been in a petri dish, was to conduct the invetro-fertilization process. The technician would not have the egg introduced to the sperm in the petri dish and then just leave it in the lab overnight, that isn't how it works, and you are smart enough to know that.

Let's stop being ridiculous here, you know abortion is the intentional taking of human life, and you know that God is not okay with it. Otherwise, you wouldn't have a problem with it, you wouldn't give a shit if your daughter had it done, or anyone else. The fact that you will act like you are all concerned about abortions, is all the proof we need of this.

As I said, may God have mercy on your soul.


LOL - You've tap danced yourself into quite the conundrum here:

Dixie: "We both know that there would be no living growing human embryo in a petri dish"

You said a soul and a human life are created at the MOMENT of conception

And previously you said that embryonic stem cell research was "the taking of an innocent life". Which time were you lying? When an embryo was an innocent life with a soul? Or when an embryo in a petri dish "is not a living, growing human?"


Dixie: "A living growing and viable human embryo can not survive for very long outside of the mother's womb, and the only period of time it would have ever been in a petri dish, was to conduct the invetro-fertilization process. The technician would not have the egg introduced to the sperm in the petri dish and then just leave it in the lab overnight, that isn't how it works, and you are smart enough to know that."


This isn't the 1950s Dixie. They've been freezing embryos for decades now. The very same embryos, that you alternatively claim aren't "a living, growing human", and then spin around and say that they are "innocent life", with a soul, created at the moment of conception

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-10-2006, 10:44 PM
Just for you idiots who want to insist a fetus is not a life...

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/fig16baby8.jpg

http://www.isd518.net/ALC/news/v.3-i.28_files/image031.jpg

This is a human fetus at 56 days... less than 2 months after conception. You reckon God has gotten around to giving it a soul yet? Wow, it really doesn't look like a random clump of cells to me! It also doesn't look like a chicken egg or unfinished building project, or something in a petri dish.

By the way, at 56 days, many women are just finding out they are pregnant, and haven't even thought about an abortion procedure. Can you imagine what this "clump of cells" looks like, at say... 8 months, when partial-birth is performed?

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-10-2006, 11:57 PM
And Prissy... save your keystrokes, you are back on ignore again. When you can objectively have a conversation like a rational adult, I might give you another chance, but I have no need to play your little juvenile word-parsing games.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-11-2006, 12:16 AM
none...it was a great concert, by the way...the Portland TV stations were covering it and my son was interviewed about what a turn around he had caused in the chorus since his arrival this fall.

While you were doing this, approximately 200 unborn human lives were destroyed by abortion. During the time you spend posting your response again, of how you don't really like abortion, but are unwilling to speak out against it, another 30 abortions will occur. Since the last time you voted for the man who vetoed a ban on partial-birth abortion twice, approximately 12 million more souls were sucked down a tube. But then, your God only requires your "concern" and not your action, and he is okay with it because you are such a good Christian who participates in church functions, and all.

Take a look at the pictures, Maine. Answer my questions... does this look like a clump of cells with no life or soul to you? Does this not look like a human being to you? If this is not a human life, what kind of life form is it? When does it become a human life form? And what additional ingredients are required after conception, to make it human life?

Yeah, we have a huge difference of opinion here, you apparently think it's okay to intentionally and maliciously take the innocent life from what is in the picture above, and I don't think God condones it, or wants it to happen, and mandates that we do everything in our power to prevent it from happening. That's the difference, you are too wrapped up in Liberalism to stand for what God wants, and you think your piety and church work is going to get you into heaven. God makes it very clear, what your duty as a Christian is, and you intentionally ignore it because being a good Liberal is more important to you.

AnyOldIron
12-11-2006, 03:03 AM
You are among about 5% of the world population who doesn't believe in any kind of afterlife or spirituality in any aspect.

Truth isn't a democracy. A few hundred years ago, the vast majority of people would have believed the Earth flat and stationary.

Humans are weak, scared little monkeys, who are only just coming to terms with existence.

We've debated this in threads before, and I have presented mounds of evidence to support belief in something greater than ourselves.

Mounds of evidence? You've presented mounds of logical fallacies, like Paley's watchmaker analogy, and Behe's fallacy of irreducible complexity. You have tried to equate ritual entirely with religion. You attempted to assert that because the majority of people believe something it must be true.

But no evidence whatsoever....


No, he will not torture you, he doesn't care what you decide to do, it's entirely up to you. He will not let you into the Kingdom of Heaven if you don't believe it, or he exists. If you aren't going to Heaven, you only have one other destination available, that was your choice, not His.

Ok, so if you creep around him, worship him like a despot, he will allow you the riches of his kingdom...

You're still not making him sound any less like Saddam....

Because hair is a physical attribute, and is not applicable to spiritual entities. That's how I know. And "spirit" is defined, it means non-physical, or not of the physical world.

That isn't explanation, it is obscurum per obscurius...

And if 'spirits' or 'soul' is not of this physical world, how do you know moustaches aren't involved? What makes you so sure?

The truth is, your definition is deliberately obscurum per obscurius, because its definition negates definition. It is an attribution. We don't fully understand the death process (or rather we do, but are too weak to accept it) and so create notions that negate our mortality, by creating falsehoods such as the notion of 'soul'.

'Soul' is very much a symptom of the human inability to deal with existence.

maineman
12-11-2006, 07:16 AM
you would have mourned the loss of an embryo in a petri dish as much as you would your daughter?

We both know that there would be no living growing human embryo in a petri dish, in an empty burning building. A living growing and viable human embryo can not survive for very long outside of the mother's womb, and the only period of time it would have ever been in a petri dish, was to conduct the invetro-fertilization process. The technician would not have the egg introduced to the sperm in the petri dish and then just leave it in the lab overnight, that isn't how it works, and you are smart enough to know that.

Let's stop being ridiculous here, you know abortion is the intentional taking of human life, and you know that God is not okay with it. Otherwise, you wouldn't have a problem with it, you wouldn't give a shit if your daughter had it done, or anyone else. The fact that you will act like you are all concerned about abortions, is all the proof we need of this.

As I said, may God have mercy on your soul.

there are thousands of EMBRYOS - not female eggs, but EMBRYOS - in freezers at fertility clinics all over America. It is YOU who don't know what you are talking about. If you believe that the moment the egg is fertilized by the sperm that the resulting life form is a HUMAN BEING, I ask you again, if a fertility clinic holding the frozen EMBRYOS created by YOUR sperm and your wife's ovum were on fire, would you risk your life to save those EMBRYOS? There would be, according to you, absolutely no different than your daughter..... they would be, according to you, little human beings who you would mourn with all the grief that you would feel if your darling poetry writing daughter were to be burned alive in a building fire. I really don't see why you are so afraid to answer this question.

Let me ask it again: If a fertility clinic where you knew embryos produced from your sperm and your wife's ovum were housed was on fire, would you risk your life to go save them?

If the house that your daughter was in was on fire, would you risk your life to go save her?

maineman
12-11-2006, 07:23 AM
While you were doing this, approximately 200 unborn human lives were destroyed by abortion. During the time you spend posting your response again, of how you don't really like abortion, but are unwilling to speak out against it, another 30 abortions will occur. Since the last time you voted for the man who vetoed a ban on partial-birth abortion twice, approximately 12 million more souls were sucked down a tube. But then, your God only requires your "concern" and not your action, and he is okay with it because you are such a good Christian who participates in church functions, and all.

Take a look at the pictures, Maine. Answer my questions... does this look like a clump of cells with no life or soul to you? Does this not look like a human being to you? If this is not a human life, what kind of life form is it? When does it become a human life form? And what additional ingredients are required after conception, to make it human life?

Yeah, we have a huge difference of opinion here, you apparently think it's okay to intentionally and maliciously take the innocent life from what is in the picture above, and I don't think God condones it, or wants it to happen, and mandates that we do everything in our power to prevent it from happening. That's the difference, you are too wrapped up in Liberalism to stand for what God wants, and you think your piety and church work is going to get you into heaven. God makes it very clear, what your duty as a Christian is, and you intentionally ignore it because being a good Liberal is more important to you.

Does it LOOK like a human? of course. Does it have "life" or a "soul"? I have no fucking idea and neither do you. You paraphrase what you claim I "apparently think" and you are, oddly enough, dead wrong. As I have said time and time again, I do not think abortions are right...I think they are wrong. I just do not think that laws ought to be made to outlaw everything that is wrong in this world. I don't think there should be laws outlawing smoking or drinking or even recreational drug use... or transfat, for that matter... all wrong - all ought to be choices that free men and women have the right to make for themselves.

As much as I hate abortions, as much as I would take strong decisive steps to make sure that no female in my family ever felt that abortion was the preferred solution or that there were not a host of more viable alternatives available, I hate the thought of government telling women what can and cannot go on inside their uteruses.

maineman
12-11-2006, 07:26 AM
And Prissy... save your keystrokes, you are back on ignore again. When you can objectively have a conversation like a rational adult, I might give you another chance, but I have no need to play your little juvenile word-parsing games.


that's funny and oh so typical.... Cypress throws your own words back in your face and rather than own up to your own blatant inconsistencies, you make it about HIM and put him on Ignore.

pathetic.

Care4all
12-11-2006, 07:38 AM
There is a difference between pointing out unChristian-like behavior, and casting judgement on someone and their faith. Examining the fruit is somewhat a judgement, but it doesn't cast judgement. This illustrates the subtle difference between me telling Lummox he apparently doesn't know how a true Christian should behave, and Maineman telling me I am a fake Christian. Although judgements have to be made in both cases, one is a judgement of fruit, the other is a judgement of soul. We are not supposed to judge a person's soul, that is God's place. I can't tell you that you are "not the right kind" of Christian, I can witness to you and share my own understandings of what the "right kind of Christian" is, and I can observe your actions and make the determination you bear rotten fruit, but I can never speak for what is truly in your heart, or the relationship between you and God.

I pretty much agree with that.... but there does reach a point where the fruit is soooooooooooo rotten that you must speak up and question what the heck is this supposed Christian thinking or doing? And setting them straight by questioning their rotten fruit actions is a necessity to being a good Christian who loves their fellow brothers in Christ....

God repremanded out of love, if He did not care about us, then why would he bother?

But as far as a judgement of salvation, it can be done or permitted, but KNOW that your own salvation will be judged in the same manner by the almighty, if you do it....it will be done to you, with the same measure you dish out, by God himself.

care

Cypress
12-11-2006, 07:50 AM
And Prissy... save your keystrokes, you are back on ignore again. When you can objectively have a conversation like a rational adult, I might give you another chance, but I have no need to play your little juvenile word-parsing games.


I merely made two points, and all you needed to do was clarify:

1) You just wrote that embryos "aren't a living, growing human being". But, you've previously wrote that embryonic stem cell research kills "an innocent life", and that a soul and a human life are created at the MOMENT of conception. These are inconsistent statements, and its perfectly reasonable to ask if you would run through fire and flame to save YOUR embryo in a fertility clinic that was on fire - that is, if you really think an embryo in a petri dish is a human life, with a soul.


2) You said embryos aren't viable in a petri dish for long; that they must be implanted in short order. I pointed out that your knowledge is way out of date. Many couples who use fertitiliy clinics have they're embryos frozen.

Care4all
12-11-2006, 07:51 AM
you idiot, there IS NO MALICE towards the "child" in abortion...ask those YOU KNOW and are close to you.... that have had one.....see what they say...do you think that she maliciously killed her baby....? Well, I don't, and I don't even know your "friends"....

care

Care4all
12-11-2006, 07:52 AM
oops maineman....that WAS FOR DIXIE

maineman
12-11-2006, 07:58 AM
exactly care, we should know that God will judge us as we have judged... and He will forgive us as we have forgiven.

Dixie's suggestions that my commenting on his faulty and self-serving brand of "Christianity" earns me a one way trip to Hell is flawed theology..... but I consider the source.

AnyOldIron
12-11-2006, 08:08 AM
There is a difference between pointing out unChristian-like behavior, and casting judgement on someone and their faith. Examining the fruit is somewhat a judgement, but it doesn't cast judgement

Oh, jeez. Logic for beginners....

If you point out what you percieve to be unchristian behaviour, you are making a judgement.

You are observing the acts of others, comparing them against your ideal of what behaviour should be and then casting judgement.

You can't judge someone, whilst at the same time be not judging them. Law of the excluded middle.....

DigitalDave
12-11-2006, 09:06 AM
No, I'm sorry. If Jesus were alive he wouldn't own a gun and vote Republican.

uscitizen
12-11-2006, 09:12 AM
Not aggording to a clip I saw of Benny Hinn (televangelist) . He was wishing Jesus would come back and use a machine gun on we sinners :D

Damocles
12-11-2006, 09:21 AM
No, I'm sorry. If Jesus were alive he wouldn't own a gun and vote Republican.
He told some of his followers to carry swords, the assumption there he likely would have had a couple of guys with guns...

I don't think he would vote at all though. He was more concerned with the eternal and not the physical aspects of life.

uscitizen
12-11-2006, 09:24 AM
Yeah, Peter cut off a guys ear with his sword in Gethsemanie. But he was not Jesus, The only timeI know of when Jesus used anykind of weapon was when he ran the moneychangers from the temple, and that was an impromptu whip.

Damocles
12-11-2006, 09:27 AM
Yeah, Peter cut off a guys ear with his sword in Gethsemanie. But he was not Jesus, The only timeI know of when Jesus used anykind of weapon was when he ran the moneychangers from the temple, and that was an impromptu whip.
Yeah, but he specifically told people to carry swords. That is why I said he likely would have had a couple of guys with weapons. He didn't say that living by the sword was evil, just that you would die that way too....

uscitizen
12-11-2006, 09:31 AM
I always considered the living by the sword to mean more than just having a weapon for self defense. Remember those were rough times, no cellphones to call a cop if trouble arose ;)

Damocles
12-11-2006, 09:38 AM
I always considered the living by the sword to mean more than just having a weapon for self defense. Remember those were rough times, no cellphones to call a cop if trouble arose ;)
I have always thought of it as being a soldier. It is a difficult calling, but it isn't necessarily an evil one.

uscitizen
12-11-2006, 09:44 AM
Yes, me too as a soldier or possibly an outlaw type.

AnyOldIron
12-11-2006, 09:49 AM
No, I'm sorry. If Jesus were alive he wouldn't own a gun and vote Republican.

Who knows.... We are all a product of our environment.

If JC had been brought up in a traditionally conservative part of America, there is a good chance he would be a gun-toting bullethead....

Jarod
12-11-2006, 10:07 AM
I think Jesus would vote independent if he got involved in politics at all. He might just lead a new world order.

uscitizen
12-11-2006, 10:09 AM
Naaah The religious right would just crucify Jesus again in some fashion.

AnyOldIron
12-11-2006, 10:14 AM
I think Jesus would vote independent if he got involved in politics at all. He might just lead a new world order.

Or he might just get a job at your local news stand.....

It was a complex set of circumstances that arose for him to become a philosopher... If circumstances had been different, he might have just been the carpenter of the cross they used on Brian.....

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-11-2006, 10:30 AM
Does it have "life" or a "soul"? I have no fucking idea and neither do you.

The Bible says they have a soul, so I do indeed know.

you idiot, there IS NO MALICE towards the "child" in abortion...

Here's how Webster describes "malice":

mal·ice
1 a : the intention or desire to cause harm (as death, bodily injury, or property damage) to another through an unlawful or wrongful act without justification or excuse b : wanton disregard for the rights of others or for the value of human life c : an improper or evil motive or purpose.

Are you saying the woman has no intention to cause harm to the fetus when she willingly has the procedure performed? Or are you saying the fetus has given her a justification to kill it? Are you saying she isn't disregarding the fetus' right to live, or that the fetus has no right to be living? In order for it to be anything other than 'malice', you have to show where the fetus did something to warrant being justifiably killed by the woman.

Yes, an abortion is the willing, intentional, and deliberate taking of innocent human life, with malice. If this sin is not repented, it will not be forgiven by God. You can make all the excuses you want, that is what God says, not me.

Dixie - In Memoriam
12-11-2006, 10:34 AM
we should know that God will judge us as we have judged

Then you better make sure they bury you in that nice shiny Navy uniform, so you can impress him with your bullshit, because you certainly have been a judgemental prick here on earth.

AnyOldIron
12-11-2006, 10:41 AM
The Bible says they have a soul, so I do indeed know.

Does it explain without relying on obscurum per obscurius nonsense what the buggery a 'soul' is?

AnyOldIron
12-11-2006, 10:42 AM
Yes, an abortion is the willing, intentional, and deliberate taking of innocent human life, with malice. If this sin is not repented, it will not be forgiven by God.

How do you know? Is god giving you advice in the shower again?

Who are you to judge?

AnyOldIron
12-11-2006, 10:45 AM
Then you better make sure they bury you in that nice shiny Navy uniform, so you can impress him with your bullshit, because you certainly have been a judgemental prick here on earth.

Ha! Ha! This from Dixie, who is going round condemning people to hell! (but not judging them..)

Jarod
12-11-2006, 10:49 AM
Does it have "life" or a "soul"? I have no fucking idea and neither do you.

The Bible says they have a soul, so I do indeed know.

you idiot, there IS NO MALICE towards the "child" in abortion...

Here's how Webster describes "malice":

mal·ice
1 a : the intention or desire to cause harm (as death, bodily injury, or property damage) to another through an unlawful or wrongful act without justification or excuse b : wanton disregard for the rights of others or for the value of human life c : an improper or evil motive or purpose.

Are you saying the woman has no intention to cause harm to the fetus when she willingly has the procedure performed? Or are you saying the fetus has given her a justification to kill it? Are you saying she isn't disregarding the fetus' right to live, or that the fetus has no right to be living? In order for it to be anything other than 'malice', you have to show where the fetus did something to warrant being justifiably killed by the woman.

Yes, an abortion is the willing, intentional, and deliberate taking of innocent human life, with malice. If this sin is not repented, it will not be forgiven by God. You can make all the excuses you want, that is what God says, not me.



The bible says a fetus has a soul? Where?

AnyOldIron
12-11-2006, 10:53 AM
The bible says a fetus has a soul? Where?

Don't mess with the bible. You can justify anything with it.....

And if you can interpret something from the bible, it must be true, cos it says so in the bible.....

Jarod
12-11-2006, 11:02 AM
The bible says a fetus has a soul? Where?

Don't mess with the bible. You can justify anything with it.....

And if you can interpret something from the bible, it must be true, cos it says so in the bible.....


Thats why I want to see the place where he claims the bible says a fetus has a soul.

Dixie makes all kind of outlandish claims and unless someone calls him on it he just keeps going. He has some basis for this silly claim... but I am sure its a part of the bible he is "interperting" very liberally....