Woman, 92, dies in shootout with police

[Damocles]

ATLANTA, Georgia (AP) -- The niece of a 92-year-old woman shot to death by police said her aunt likely had reason to shoot three narcotics investigators as they stormed her house.

Police insisted the officers did everything right before entering the home Tuesday evening, despite suggestions from the woman's neighbors and relatives that it was a case of mistaken identity.

The woman, Kathryn Johnston, was the only resident in the house at the time and had lived there for about 17 years, Assistant Chief Alan Dreher said.

The officers had a legal warrant, "knocked and announced" before they forced open the door and were justified in shooting once fired upon, he said.

Link here... (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/22/woman.shot.ap/index.html)


It seems to me that, if it is as they said and they knocked and announced as well as had a warrant, then the age doesn't make this any more eggregious than any other place where the officers might be shot at.

[Cypress]

someone that trigger-happy probably shouldn't be owning a gun for home defense.

[Damocles]

I have read some more on the subject. It appears that in neighborhoods like hers there are bad guys that pretend to be cops and use some of the same tactics to enter a home. She may have been playing the odds. How likely is it that real cops would be invading HER home?

[Cypress]

I have read some more on the subject. It appears that in neighborhoods like hers there are bad guys that pretend to be cops and use some of the same tactics to enter a home. She may have been playing the odds. How likely is it that real cops would be invading HER home?

She panicked.

A cop could have been killed. Obviously, she'd be alive if she didn't have a gun and panicked.

Guns for home defense is always a crap-shoot; russian roulette.

[Damocles]

She panicked.

A cop could have been killed. Obviously, she'd be alive if she didn't have a gun and panicked.

Guns for home defense is always a crap-shoot; russian roulette.
Or she could have been killed if they were bad guys and the gun could have saved her life handled correctly...

In this case I begin to consider it a comedy of errors more than a fault of either the cops or the lady. The bad guys beginning to use this tactic to enter homes more safely pretty much takes away the effectiveness of knock and announce...

[Care4all]

it is the cops fault...

WHY did they have a warrant to enter this 92 year old woman's house? what was the fricking warrant for....?

jimminee christmas....

it was the fault of whoever got the damn warrant for this woman's house... did they have probable cause to get in to her house and FOR WHAT?

[Gaffer]

I would have to get more info on it but it sounds like it was a mistake on both parts. If my door was kicked in I would have done the same thing she did. Especially knowing I have no drugs or drug dealings.
And if the local thugs use police tactics to break into homes I can see why she would shoot first, and once someone starts shooting the police will automatically shoot back.

The one big question would have to be, why a warrant for this house? Wrong address? Known past drug dealing? There has to be a history that brought this place to the police attention.

[Cypress]

I would have to get more info on it but it sounds like it was a mistake on both parts. If my door was kicked in I would have done the same thing she did. Especially knowing I have no drugs or drug dealings.
And if the local thugs use police tactics to break into homes I can see why she would shoot first, and once someone starts shooting the police will automatically shoot back.

The one big question would have to be, why a warrant for this house? Wrong address? Known past drug dealing? There has to be a history that brought this place to the police attention.


"If my door was kicked in I would have done the same thing she did."

Fascinating.

If you heard a knock on your door, and a voice announcing it was the police, and then some middle-age white men (30 and 40-somethings) wearing caps and jackets clearly labeled "Police Department" burst in, you would have started blindly squeezing off rounds at them?

[Damocles]

"If my door was kicked in I would have done the same thing she did."

Fascinating.

If you heard a knock on your door, and a voice announcing it was the police, and then some middle-age white men (30 and 40-somethings) wearing caps and jackets clearly labeled "Police Department" burst in, you would have started blindly squeezing off rounds at them?
One more time. The bad guys in that area have taken to using this tactic to get into houses to victimize people, even up to wearing clothes that appear to be uniforms.

[Cypress]

One more time. The bad guys in that area have taken to using this tactic to get into houses to victimize people, even up to wearing clothes that appear to be uniforms.

Gaffer said he'd do the exact same thing at HIS house. Not at HER house.

Presumably, he doesn't live in a crime invested area, were home invasion is common.

[Damocles]

Gaffer said he'd do the exact same thing at HIS house. Not at HER house.

Presumably, he doesn't live in a crime invested area, were home invasion is common.
I think that "if all things were the same" was implied in the conversation.

[Care4all]

If one is innocent of any wrong doing in their life, which very probably is the case with this 92 year old woman, and someone in plain clothes approaches your door and starts pounding on it telling you to open up, they are the police yahdeedah, and crooks were known to do such to make an entrance in to victim's homes.....

I too, if I owned a gun, which I do not, would have shot like crazy when someone broke the door down...

because I would have surmised that it WAS NOT THE REAL COPS, but crooks, because as an american citizen, I would have known that there would have been NO REASON for police to have a warrant to enter my house FOR WRONG DOING OF ANY SORT. PERIOD!

[Damocles]

If one is innocent of any wrong doing in their life, which very probably is the case with this 92 year old woman, and someone in plain clothes approaches your door and starts pounding on it telling you to open up, they are the police yahdeedah, and crooks were known to do such to make an entrance in to victim's homes.....

I too, if I owned a gun, which I do not, would have shot like crazy when someone broke the door down...

because I would have surmised that it WAS NOT THE REAL COPS, but crooks, because as an american citizen, I would have known that there would have been NO REASON for police to have a warrant to enter my house FOR WRONG DOING OF ANY SORT. PERIOD!
Which was a point of mine. The lady was probably saying, "Why would the cops come here?" She lives alone, as the story clearly states, and isn't running drugs... Therefore it is far more logical that it isn't the cops, but the bad guys playing her for a "fool".

It's a tragedy, but playing the odds that way she likely would be right more often than not...

[Cypress]

If one is innocent of any wrong doing in their life, which very probably is the case with this 92 year old woman, and someone in plain clothes approaches your door and starts pounding on it telling you to open up, they are the police yahdeedah, and crooks were known to do such to make an entrance in to victim's homes.....

I too, if I owned a gun, which I do not, would have shot like crazy when someone broke the door down...

because I would have surmised that it WAS NOT THE REAL COPS, but crooks, because as an american citizen, I would have known that there would have been NO REASON for police to have a warrant to enter my house FOR WRONG DOING OF ANY SORT. PERIOD!


Obviously, she had some nephew, grandson, or somebody else living with her who was dealing drugs:


The officers had gone to the old woman's house with a search warrant after buying drugs there from a man known only as Sam, police said. Police issued a "John Doe" warrant on Wednesday for the arrest of Sam, believed to be in his early to mid 30s, who allegedly sold the drugs to the undercover agent. Dreher would not say how the dealer knew Johnston.

Investigators also said they found drugs in the home after Johnston was killed. Officer Joe Cobb, a police spokesman, said the type of drug involved would not be disclosed until it was verified by the crime lab."




http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2006/11/23/news/doc456466c5f1e86283034474.txt

[Gaffer]

The real answer comes with the warrant. Was it wrongly issued? was it wrongly addressed?

As I said, in her situation I would have done the same. Fortunately I live in an area where that doesn't happen.

[Care4all]

Obviously, she had some nephew, grandson, or somebody else living with her who was dealing drugs:


The officers had gone to the old woman's house with a search warrant after buying drugs there from a man known only as Sam, police said. Police issued a "John Doe" warrant on Wednesday for the arrest of Sam, believed to be in his early to mid 30s, who allegedly sold the drugs to the undercover agent. Dreher would not say how the dealer knew Johnston.

Investigators also said they found drugs in the home after Johnston was killed. Officer Joe Cobb, a police spokesman, said the type of drug involved would not be disclosed until it was verified by the crime lab."




http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2006/11/23/news/doc456466c5f1e86283034474.txt

I am sorry cypress, I find it hard to believe that they found drugs in the house but could not tell us what the drugs were or how much they recovered without a test on them...bullcrap....

And I find it very hard to believe that we live in a country that would issue a warrant to search this woman's home without PROBABLE CAUSE.... and one man's word against another's is not "cause enough" to break in to this woman's home..... they should have found out more... and if it was this alledged "sam" guy then they SHOULD HAVE MADE SURE that he lived there or had reason to be there when they issued this warrant....or was present when they chose to enter this home....

This article doesn't even say how the undercover cops KNOW this Sam guy...it says he bought drugs from this Sam guy at this woman's house, but HOW DID THIS COP find out about this Sam guy selling drugs from this old broad's house? Who snitched on this Sam guy? Why didn't they know more about this "sam" guy before the warrant was issued to break in to this woman's house?

And why do cops shoot to kill now? I thought they were trained to shoot to "mame" them in a manner preventing them from shooting anymore...in this case I can understand why they did, but still...could they not see that she was NOT THIS SAM GUY?

Someone is DEAD because of it and the stupid silly drug laws that make cops feel they can do anything to even those that are innocent....

if the article said that these undercover cops bought drugs from this Sam guy 5 times at this house ....would be something different then they bought dope from this guy ONCE at this old lady's house.... and that is enough to rid her of her constitutional rights, is bullcrap imo....

guess life has changed since my younger years and cops are now militarily trained to kill....instead of maming?

[Damocles]

Cops have never been taught to "maim" rather than to shoot for the body. That is a myth.

Even a trianed cop only hits their target 40% of the time during high stress situations. This wouldn't be possible to teach them to "maim" rather than to shoot for the largest target, the body.

[Gaffer]

Having been a cop, I can say that cops are never taught to shoot to maim. That's silly. You shoot to eliminate the threat. The largest part of the body is the torso and that is where you aim.

Pistols are not known for their accuracy beyond a few feet. And in the heat of a shoot out you don't worry about legs and arms. Just aim at the subject and hope you get them before they get you.

And most shoot outs are over in seconds. There is not time to weigh things out. It just doesn't happen like you see it on tv or the movies.

[Cypress]

I am sorry cypress, I find it hard to believe that they found drugs in the house but could not tell us what the drugs were or how much they recovered without a test on them...bullcrap....

And I find it very hard to believe that we live in a country that would issue a warrant to search this woman's home without PROBABLE CAUSE.... and one man's word against another's is not "cause enough" to break in to this woman's home..... they should have found out more... and if it was this alledged "sam" guy then they SHOULD HAVE MADE SURE that he lived there or had reason to be there when they issued this warrant....or was present when they chose to enter this home....

This article doesn't even say how the undercover cops KNOW this Sam guy...it says he bought drugs from this Sam guy at this woman's house, but HOW DID THIS COP find out about this Sam guy selling drugs from this old broad's house? Who snitched on this Sam guy? Why didn't they know more about this "sam" guy before the warrant was issued to break in to this woman's house?

And why do cops shoot to kill now? I thought they were trained to shoot to "mame" them in a manner preventing them from shooting anymore...in this case I can understand why they did, but still...could they not see that she was NOT THIS SAM GUY?

Someone is DEAD because of it and the stupid silly drug laws that make cops feel they can do anything to even those that are innocent....

if the article said that these undercover cops bought drugs from this Sam guy 5 times at this house ....would be something different then they bought dope from this guy ONCE at this old lady's house.... and that is enough to rid her of her constitutional rights, is bullcrap imo....

guess life has changed since my younger years and cops are now militarily trained to kill....instead of maming?

Obviously, it was a terrible accident.

The article didn't say the cops didn't know what the drugs were. They probably do. It says they can't comment until the lab verifies it. Sounds like standard police procedure to me. They're not going to speculate to the media. They have procedures to follow.

I'm not going to blame the cops. If the facts as reported are true, they were doing there job. Somebody at that house, sold and undercover agent some drugs. And I would bet you a thousand dollars, that the majority of law-abiding people in impoverished ghettos want drug dealers to be arrested, and removed from their neighborhoods.

Until the drugs law are changed, the cops are only doing their job. I can't blame them.

[OrnotBitwise]

She panicked.

A cop could have been killed. Obviously, she'd be alive if she didn't have a gun and panicked.

Guns for home defense is always a crap-shoot; russian roulette.If she paniced, she retained a remarkably cool head about it. She fired three shots and hit three cops, one of them smack in the center of his chest. If he hadn't been wearing a vest he'd be hamburger.

I agree with you about keeping guns for home defense: statistically, it's a losing proposition. This particular incident, however, wasn't a horrible mistake, it was a tragecy in the truest sense of the word.

[AnyOldIron]

What do you expect when everybody is armed to the teeth.

[Topspin]

Am I the only one that thinks the cops could have planted the drugs to cover up there murder after they discovered their big bust was on Granny?

[Damocles]

Am I the only one that thinks the cops could have planted the drugs to cover up there murder after they discovered their big bust was on Granny?
No. I think that is a possibility...

[OrnotBitwise]

What do you expect when everybody is armed to the teeth.The highest rate of gun-related violence in the civilized world. Which is exactly what we've got. But it's not just the guns. As Michael Moore has so famously pointed out, Canadians have even more guns per capita than we do yet manage to avoid the violence.

[OrnotBitwise]

Am I the only one that thinks the cops could have planted the drugs to cover up there murder after they discovered their big bust was on Granny?
Certianly it's possible. It wouldn't be the first time bad cops had done such a thing. But the warrant was proper: they were at the correct address. That leads me to believe that someone was dealing out of her house at some point. Whether it was she or whether she know about it are open questions.