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Lowaicue
09-20-2009, 07:15 AM
Will one of the more erudite members of the right wing please explain to me, a simple Brit, why you are against your president's health care plan.
In your answer please refrain from using the words:
Socialist/ism, fascist/ism, Kenya(n).
Try to make your answers sensible and without bad language and insult. D'you think you could do that?
For the moment I am not interested in the centre or left of centre view.

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 07:20 AM
Will one of the more erudite members of the right wing please explain to me, a simple Brit, why you are against your president's health care plan.
In your answer please refrain from using the words:
Socialist/ism, fascist/ism, Kenya(n).
Try to make your answers sensible and without bad language and insult. D'you think you could do that?
For the moment I am not interested in the centre or left of centre view.

Big government afficionados either don't understand that price fixing, wage fixing etc. WILL CAUSE RATIONING, or they know and are cynically implementing the population control/ eugenics directives of UNESCO.

The worst charactered people rise to the top of modern statist bureaucracies. Giving them power over life and death merely extends their power over our lives, which is a bad idea considering the nihilism of their ruling ideology.

Why should we trust people who believe humans are evil and should be eliminated from earth, to save the Earth Mother Spirit?

Lowaicue
09-20-2009, 07:31 AM
Big government afficionados either don't understand that price fixing, wage fixing etc. WILL CAUSE RATIONING, or they know and are cynically implementing the population control/ eugenics directives of UNESCO.

The worst charactered people rise to the top of modern statist bureaucracies. Giving them power over life and death merely extends their power over our lives, which is a bad idea considering the nihilism of their ruling ideology.

Why should we trust people who believe humans are evil and should be eliminated from earth, to save the Earth Mother Spirit?

Thank you.
Can you supply evidence to support your contentions?

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 07:45 AM
Thank you.
Can you supply evidence to support your contentions?

Do you deny unesco directives advocate population control and eugenics measures?

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 07:47 AM
Google "John Holdren population control"

or "green movement eugenics"

The green movement is openly anti-human.

Lowaicue
09-20-2009, 07:51 AM
Do you deny unesco directives advocate population control and eugenics measures?

I am not denying nor confirming anything at this time. Just trying to understand.

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 07:53 AM
I am not denying nor confirming anything at this time. Just trying to understand.

Then I shan't waste my time spoonfeeding you. Go educate yourself.

apple0154
09-20-2009, 07:55 AM
Google "John Holdren population control"

or "green movement eugenics"

The green movement is openly anti-human.

That being the case I suggest people get out there and do some serious lovin' before that's outlawed.

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 08:10 AM
That being the case I suggest people get out there and do some serious lovin' before that's outlawed.

Yes. make love, not Green Restrictions on land usage.

tinfoil
09-20-2009, 08:41 AM
Yes. make love, not Green Restrictions on land usage.

LOL awesome!

/MSG/
09-20-2009, 08:54 AM
My problem is wasteful spending of tax dollars in our medical system already. Another program would only create more. Plus the mandatory healthcare is unconstitutional and goes against everything our government and country once stood for.

Lowaicue
09-20-2009, 09:01 AM
Then I shan't waste my time spoonfeeding you. Go educate yourself.

Since I seek opinions of others your suggestion hold little sense.
After approximately one and a half hours no right winger here has bothered to respond. I thought for a moment that you had but your comment is a little childish, dont you think?

Let me extend my question.

Is the right's stand against the health care plan based upon

a) a dislike if your presidents race or colour? or
b) the fear or dislike of big government? or
c) the dislike or fear of socialism?
d) the fear of losing the freedoms for which your nation has struggled since its inception?
e) something else.
f) all of the above.

Please be prepared to support you contentions. This is a genuine desire to understand a question that bothers many people.

Lowaicue
09-20-2009, 09:06 AM
My problem is wasteful spending of tax dollars in our medical system already. Another program would only create more. Plus the mandatory healthcare is unconstitutional and goes against everything our government and country once stood for.

OK. I thank you for that response. Can you tell me more about the wasteful spending of tax dollars as it applies to the proposed health care reform? Does the constitution of the US positively state that to which you allude? When you say - quote - "everything our government and country once stood for" can you give examples of how those factors are being or will be destroyed by the healthcare reform?

No trick questions here. A dumb foreigner is trying to get his head round this.

Lowaicue
09-20-2009, 09:09 AM
LOL awesome!

Thank you.
Can you tell me how the health care reforms are likely to affect land usage? Thanks

/MSG/
09-20-2009, 09:16 AM
OK. I thank you for that response. Can you tell me more about the wasteful spending of tax dollars as it applies to the proposed health care reform? Does the constitution of the US positively state that to which you allude? When you say - quote - "everything our government and country once stood for" can you give examples of how those factors are being or will be destroyed by the healthcare reform?

No trick questions here. A dumb foreigner is trying to get his head round this.

Waste occurs at all levels of government. This has become accepted to the point where it is unremarkable. While I cannot give any specific examples, I can point to my own dealings with government run helathcare: The military.

Those without firsthand experience would say we give our armed forces the best care imaginable. But this is hardly the case. In my own BAS (Battalion Aid Station, the equivelent of your local doctors office) I have had to wait for weeks to be seen for significant problems, only to be pushed aside with Aleve and the advice to "drink more water". I cannot say for certain this is the way a government run healthcare system would turn out. But even the possibility is enough to make me against it.

As for the constitutional angle, mandating that all citizens have health insurance violates the 9th and 10th amendments of our constitution and one of founding ideals of personal freedom. Our founding fathers were all very skeptical of big government and rightly so. They naturally wanted to have as little government involvment in their personal lives as possible.

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 09:18 AM
Since I seek opinions of others your suggestion hold little sense.
After approximately one and a half hours no right winger here has bothered to respond. I thought for a moment that you had but your comment is a little childish, dont you think?

Let me extend my question.

Is the right's stand against the health care plan based upon

a) a dislike if your presidents race or colour? or
b) the fear or dislike of big government? or
c) the dislike or fear of socialism?
d) the fear of losing the freedoms for which your nation has struggled since its inception?
e) something else.
f) all of the above.

Please be prepared to support you contentions. This is a genuine desire to understand a question that bothers many people.

Educating yourself holds little sense? That's odd. can you elaborate?

uscitizen
09-20-2009, 10:47 AM
Yes. make love, not Green Restrictions on land usage.

Sure our grandchildren don't need clean drinking water.

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 10:51 AM
Sure our grandchildren don't need clean drinking water.

There are no grandchildren when food production is foregone in favor of some breed of rare caterpillar, or something equally stupid.

uscitizen
09-20-2009, 11:51 AM
There are no grandchildren when food production is foregone in favor of some breed of rare caterpillar, or something equally stupid.

Well that statement is about as stupid as stupid gets.

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 11:53 AM
Well that statement is about as stupid as stupid gets.

How so?

uscitizen
09-20-2009, 11:56 AM
How so?

To think that mankind will allow itself to starve because of one endangered caterpillar or that one endgangered caterpillar could stop food production.
Either way, about as stupid as stupid can get.

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 12:00 PM
To think that mankind will allow itself to starve because of one endangered caterpillar or that one endgangered caterpillar could stop food production.
Either way, about as stupid as stupid can get.

yet this administration supports shit like that.

Reducing the human population is the POINT of the GREEN MOVEMENT. It always has been.

apple0154
09-20-2009, 01:15 PM
There are no grandchildren when food production is foregone in favor of some breed of rare caterpillar, or something equally stupid.

"Palin requested millions of federal dollars for everything from improving recreational halibut fishing to studying the mating habits of crabs and the DNA of harbor seals." http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=4E2E5BFD-18FE-70B2-A815903CFF648F68


Now, to you and me, the mating habits of crabs may not be important but I can tell you right now I bet the crabs have a different view!

egordon0315
09-20-2009, 01:30 PM
Hi, Low. Good to see you.

(/sarcasm)You know that we right-wingers are against the health-care plan because our president it black and we don't accept anything black.(/sarcasm)

Mr. Obama is trying to fix 100% of something that is only 5% broken. We all agree that parts of our healthcare reimbursement system is broken.

What bothers me is that this is all told to be healthcare. It's not.

It is how insurance pays for it. Adding in the uninsured to the mix will not change how insurance pays for it. It won't change the fact that physicians prescribe treatments based on what insurance will pay them.

The reform should come in the form of un-deifying physicians. They're only technicians, anyway, and don't know shit about how health works.

Except for maybe a few.


Will one of the more erudite members of the right wing please explain to me, a simple Brit, why you are against your president's health care plan.
In your answer please refrain from using the words:
Socialist/ism, fascist/ism, Kenya(n).
Try to make your answers sensible and without bad language and insult. D'you think you could do that?
For the moment I am not interested in the centre or left of centre view.

FUCK THE POLICE
09-20-2009, 02:51 PM
price fixing, wage fixing etc.

There's no wage and price fixinng in this bill.

FUCK THE POLICE
09-20-2009, 02:52 PM
Hi, Low. Good to see you.

(/sarcasm)You know that we right-wingers are against the health-care plan because our president it black and we don't accept anything black.(/sarcasm)

Mr. Obama is trying to fix 100% of something that is only 5% broken. We all agree that parts of our healthcare reimbursement system is broken.

What bothers me is that this is all told to be healthcare. It's not.

It is how insurance pays for it. Adding in the uninsured to the mix will not change how insurance pays for it. It won't change the fact that physicians prescribe treatments based on what insurance will pay them.

The reform should come in the form of un-deifying physicians. They're only technicians, anyway, and don't know shit about how health works.

Except for maybe a few.

100% of it? The healthcare bill changes hardly anything. It makes insurance mandatory, puts a few common sense regulations on them, and gives poor and middle class people subsidies. It insures universal coverage but doesn't make any huge changes that would lead to cost reductions.

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 04:48 PM
There's no wage and price fixinng in this bill.

Of course there is. that's how government does business.

Cancel 2018. 3
09-20-2009, 05:14 PM
Big government afficionados either don't understand that price fixing, wage fixing etc. WILL CAUSE RATIONING, or they know and are cynically implementing the population control/ eugenics directives of UNESCO.

The worst charactered people rise to the top of modern statist bureaucracies. Giving them power over life and death merely extends their power over our lives, which is a bad idea considering the nihilism of their ruling ideology.

Why should we trust people who believe humans are evil and should be eliminated from earth, to save the Earth Mother Spirit?

so what is your answer to this problem? complete free market?

Cancel 2018. 3
09-20-2009, 05:16 PM
There's no wage and price fixinng in this bill.

are you serious....you talk like DNC....

you're telling me that obama doesn't want to end the high cost of h/c? this bill is nothing if there is not price controls. wtf do you think this bill is doing?

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 05:19 PM
so what is your answer to this problem? complete free market?

basics toxic emissions standards. But classifying c02 as a POLLUTANT is insane. It's is the gas of life for all plants. Taxing people to breathe? This will be happening. A CO2 emissions tax on all american business will be an insane drag on our economy. Just saying NO to cap and trade. and undo the villainization of co2. We could just plant more plants to scrub the atmospher for co2 if it every REALLY becomes a problem. WHich it isn't now, because anthropogenic global warming is a lie. The data is doctored and fraudlent. Reasearch the fastidious postings of Tinfoil if you doubt it.

Cancel 2018. 3
09-20-2009, 05:22 PM
basics toxic emissions standards. But classifying c02 as a POLLUTANT is insane. It's is the gas of life for all plants. Taxing people to breathe? This will be happening. A CO2 emissions tax on all american business will be an insane drag on our economy. Just saying NO to cap and trade. and undo the villainization of co2. We could just plant more plants to scrub the atmospher for co2 if it every REALLY becomes a problem. WHich it isn't now, because anthropogenic global warming is a lie. The data is doctored and fraudlent. Reasearch the fastidious postings of Tinfoil if you doubt it.

this thread is about the h/c plan....

as to the global warming nonsense, tinfoil is right on the science etc....its a scam

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 05:34 PM
this thread is about the h/c plan....

as to the global warming nonsense, tinfoil is right on the science etc....its a scam

lol. Yeah. For some reason I went onto a totally different topic. Just a high ass I guess.

But yeah. Healthcare

1. some tort reform.
2. bust up state by state cartels
3.have individuals shop directly for insurance instead of collective bargaining through their employer.
HIghly customizable plans in terms of deductibles, Covered procedures, discounts for being drug/ alcohol free etc.

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 05:36 PM
Healthcare like fast food. At the mall. Like it's tennis shoes. It could be done. but the sad truth is they don't want people to be that well.

Cancel 2018. 3
09-20-2009, 05:43 PM
Healthcare like fast food. At the mall. Like it's tennis shoes. It could be done. but the sad truth is they don't want people to be that well.

again....what is your solution?

and h/c is not like fast food, the vast majority of h/c is not a choice, you can't get a brain tumor fixed in a mcdonald's minute and you can't get the happy meal with it....

Cancel 2018. 3
09-20-2009, 05:47 PM
lol. Yeah. For some reason I went onto a totally different topic. Just a high ass I guess.

But yeah. Healthcare

1. some tort reform.
2. bust up state by state cartels
3.have individuals shop directly for insurance instead of collective bargaining through their employer.
HIghly customizable plans in terms of deductibles, Covered procedures, discounts for being drug/ alcohol free etc.

1. tort reform - i'm on the fence on this, and yes, partly because of my profession. the other part is, the studies or so called studies, have shown that in states with tort reform, insurance rates have still gone up and nothing has changed except....the personal injury awards

2. i assume you mean insurance, if so, yes

3. why? you get far better rates and also coverage with group bargaining....individual ins rates are crazy, group rates are somewhat rational and you can sometimes get in preexisting conditions.....not so with individual rates

Hermes Thoth
09-20-2009, 06:43 PM
1. tort reform - i'm on the fence on this, and yes, partly because of my profession. the other part is, the studies or so called studies, have shown that in states with tort reform, insurance rates have still gone up and nothing has changed except....the personal injury awards

2. i assume you mean insurance, if so, yes

3. why? you get far better rates and also coverage with group bargaining....individual ins rates are crazy, group rates are somewhat rational and you can sometimes get in preexisting conditions.....not so with individual rates

Everything would change from a combination of breaking up state cartels and allowing individual negotiations instead of negotiations on a company by company basis. an individuals choices are limited by the deals his employer strikes to be the vendor for the company. They have some choices, but it 's a preselected shortlist which most likely has some kickback involved with getting on it.

Plus, the employer based system makes it too much of a hassle to quit. WHy should have to think about healthcare when we just want to quit? The fascists want it that way.

Scrapping the employer based system is key for me.

Cancel 2018. 3
09-20-2009, 06:53 PM
TE=AssHatZombie;523019]Everything would change from a combination of breaking up state cartels and allowing individual negotiations instead of negotiations on a company by company basis. an individuals choices are limited by the deals his employer strikes to be the vendor for the company. They have some choices, but it 's a preselected shortlist which most likely has some kickback involved with getting on it.

you're wrong, at least as far as CA is concerned.....individual's get crap for ins plans here, group is much better....and this is second hand info, a good friend is in the ins industry, not working for the ins co's, but selling policies to business's or individuals.....



Plus, the employer based system makes it too much of a hassle to quit. WHy should have to think about healthcare when we just want to quit? The fascists want it that way.

huh?


Scrapping the employer based system is key for me.

so your solution is to quit this "employer based" system? as if that is the only system....and as if that is national.....

dude, you haven't offered a single solution to the current problem....nothing but criticism

FUCK THE POLICE
09-20-2009, 07:30 PM
are you serious....you talk like DNC....

you're telling me that obama doesn't want to end the high cost of h/c? this bill is nothing if there is not price controls. wtf do you think this bill is doing?

I dunno I haven't seen any price controls. The public option would be the price control if they put it in there.

FUCK THE POLICE
09-20-2009, 07:31 PM
lol. Yeah. For some reason I went onto a totally different topic. Just a high ass I guess.

But yeah. Healthcare

1. some tort reform.
2. bust up state by state cartels
3.have individuals shop directly for insurance instead of collective bargaining through their employer.
HIghly customizable plans in terms of deductibles, Covered procedures, discounts for being drug/ alcohol free etc.

Healthcare prices would skyrocket.

FUCK THE POLICE
09-20-2009, 07:37 PM
basics toxic emissions standards. But classifying c02 as a POLLUTANT is insane. It's is the gas of life for all plants.

You are being willfully ignorant here. A base amount of CO2 is necessary for plant life, and for hundreds of millions of years that base amount has been circulating. Now we're digging up old sequestered CO2 and pumping it back into the atmosphere. This has the effect of raising global temperatures. If it were at natural levels, it wouldn't be a pollutant. If mercury were at natural levels, it wouldn't be a pollutant either.


Taxing people to breathe? This will be happening.

Absolutely hysterical rubbish. Breathing is part of the natural CO2 cycle and does not contribute any net CO2. Taxing it would be useless and would do nothing at all to reduce CO2 levels. It would basically equate to a head tax since there's nothing you can do to stop it. Other unnatural sources of CO2 can, however, be stopped.



A CO2 emissions tax on all american business will be an insane drag on our economy.

Really? Europe is doing just fine. They are actually doing better in this recession than us.


Just saying NO to cap and trade. and undo the villainization of co2. We could just plant more plants to scrub the atmospher for co2 if it every REALLY becomes a problem.

Which would cost an insane amount, far far more than simply never producing the CO2, and would take centuries to reduce CO2 to natural levels.


WHich it isn't now, because anthropogenic global warming is a lie. The data is doctored and fraudlent. Reasearch the fastidious postings of Tinfoil if you doubt it.

The hoaxer conspiracy theory is a lie that shouldn't be listened to. Their research is not doctored because it's non-existant.

FUCK THE POLICE
09-20-2009, 07:39 PM
Everything would change from a combination of breaking up state cartels and allowing individual negotiations instead of negotiations on a company by company basis. an individuals choices are limited by the deals his employer strikes to be the vendor for the company. They have some choices, but it 's a preselected shortlist which most likely has some kickback involved with getting on it.

Plus, the employer based system makes it too much of a hassle to quit. WHy should have to think about healthcare when we just want to quit? The fascists want it that way.

Scrapping the employer based system is key for me.

LOL. Yeah. Coporations pay less, individuals far far far far far far far far more. Just the way Asshat the "populist" likes it.

Cancel 2018. 3
09-20-2009, 07:45 PM
I dunno I haven't seen any price controls. The public option would be the price control if they put it in there.

so preexisting options....are what..... :pke:

tinfoil
09-20-2009, 09:20 PM
Of course there is. that's how government does business.

why bother with these morons? They are clueless.

Cancel 2018. 3
09-20-2009, 09:24 PM
why bother with these morons? They are clueless.

and yet you bother to post....

give it up and post or stfu

uscitizen
09-20-2009, 10:42 PM
Profit regulation on insurance and health care industry. Corporate wise not individual DR and nurse wage controls.

The public utilities worked fine that way for many years and were desired stocks to have in your portfolios.

Lowaicue
09-20-2009, 11:27 PM
Hi, Low. Good to see you.

(/sarcasm)You know that we right-wingers are against the health-care plan because our president it black and we don't accept anything black.(/sarcasm)

Mr. Obama is trying to fix 100% of something that is only 5% broken. We all agree that parts of our healthcare reimbursement system is broken.

What bothers me is that this is all told to be healthcare. It's not.

It is how insurance pays for it. Adding in the uninsured to the mix will not change how insurance pays for it. It won't change the fact that physicians prescribe treatments based on what insurance will pay them.

The reform should come in the form of un-deifying physicians. They're only technicians, anyway, and don't know shit about how health works.

Except for maybe a few.

Hi Liz. Thanks for a sensible response. Question: Can you tell me of the 95% that is not broken? I read reports of people being turned away for not having insurance or for having 'incomplete' insurance. I assume that is your 5%?
Are you saying that the president is bundling other problems or other matters and labelling them 'healthcare'? If that is the commonly held belief, do people believe there is a hidden agenda?

Lowaicue
09-20-2009, 11:28 PM
yet this administration supports shit like that.

Reducing the human population is the POINT of the GREEN MOVEMENT. It always has been.

What is the connection between the 'Green' movement and the healthcare package?

Lowaicue
09-20-2009, 11:31 PM
lol. Yeah. For some reason I went onto a totally different topic. Just a high ass I guess.

But yeah. Healthcare

1. some tort reform.
2. bust up state by state cartels
3.have individuals shop directly for insurance instead of collective bargaining through their employer.
HIghly customizable plans in terms of deductibles, Covered procedures, discounts for being drug/ alcohol free etc.


Are you against those things?

Lowaicue
09-21-2009, 12:40 AM
We have collected a few of the right's objections to the healthcare plan.
In no particular order they are a danger of
Price fixing.
Rationing
Population control
Wasteful spending of tax dollars
Unconstitutional (Amm 9 & 10)
No or minimal change necessary
'healthcare' being used to encompass other matters which may or may not be unpopular

OK. Next question. Please no interference from the left or centre left.

Why haven't all these fears been put into a single document and presented to the president as he has requested?

It's very easy to shout 'No' and carry placards, not quite so easy to express the reasons for that. But if you feel strongly, as many most certainly do, why not spend a bit of time and energy?
But once the representations have been made and discussed both sides must sit together and thrash out a system that works.
Here, for the first time in many American lives, the individual must take second place to the well-being of the majority.
If, at the end of discussions the right cannot or will not accept then the president has a choice. Back down or do it anyway and lets face it, a majority of your countrymen elected him so the latter would be the obvious.
Further discontent will then only come from those who have another agenda and I would suggest that that agenda is more concerned with the colour of his skin than the colour of his politics.
As white presidents go, Obama seems OK to me, but then I am not American. (Yes, I said WHITE. He is 50% WHITE so why do you call him BLACK?)

Hermes Thoth
09-21-2009, 05:00 AM
What is the connection between the 'Green' movement and the healthcare package?

They're both designed to kill people.

Hermes Thoth
09-21-2009, 05:02 AM
We have collected a few of the right's objections to the healthcare plan.
In no particular order they are a danger of
Price fixing.
Rationing
Population control
Wasteful spending of tax dollars
Unconstitutional (Amm 9 & 10)
No or minimal change necessary
'healthcare' being used to encompass other matters which may or may not be unpopular

OK. Next question. Please no interference from the left or centre left.

Why haven't all these fears been put into a single document and presented to the president as he has requested?

It's very easy to shout 'No' and carry placards, not quite so easy to express the reasons for that. But if you feel strongly, as many most certainly do, why not spend a bit of time and energy?
But once the representations have been made and discussed both sides must sit together and thrash out a system that works.
Here, for the first time in many American lives, the individual must take second place to the well-being of the majority.
If, at the end of discussions the right cannot or will not accept then the president has a choice. Back down or do it anyway and lets face it, a majority of your countrymen elected him so the latter would be the obvious.
Further discontent will then only come from those who have another agenda and I would suggest that that agenda is more concerned with the colour of his skin than the colour of his politics.
As white presidents go, Obama seems OK to me, but then I am not American. (Yes, I said WHITE. He is 50% WHITE so why do you call him BLACK?)

Many republicans are probably also fascist dicks who like the state by state cartel, and who like companies controlling their employees healthcare.

Control is a big issue.

Hermes Thoth
09-21-2009, 05:05 AM
Nobody here is just shouting NO for no reason.

Why isn't it all in one handy dandy bill? The legislative process is ugly, and quite possibly the republicans don't want the reforms the people want.

Hermes Thoth
09-21-2009, 05:10 AM
Further discontent will then only come from those who have another agenda and I would suggest that that agenda is more concerned with the colour of his skin than the colour of his politics.
As white presidents go, Obama seems OK to me, but then I am not American. (Yes, I said WHITE. He is 50% WHITE so why do you call him BLACK?)

Wrong. Many will continue to have non race based reasons for opposing a government option. But thanks for trying to inject race where it isn't the issue.

LOL. You suck at thinking.

Hermes Thoth
09-21-2009, 05:12 AM
Population control is not a hidden agenda. It's explicitly stated by John Holdren science czar. He believe the state should decide who lives and dies, according to the criterias of social fitness.

Hermes Thoth
09-21-2009, 05:18 AM
you're wrong, at least as far as CA is concerned.....individual's get crap for ins plans here, group is much better....and this is second hand info, a good friend is in the ins industry, not working for the ins co's, but selling policies to business's or individuals.....




huh?



so your solution is to quit this "employer based" system? as if that is the only system....and as if that is national.....

dude, you haven't offered a single solution to the current problem....nothing but criticism
Individuals plans suck now because that's how they're set up, to be expensive so people go through their employer. The group of all individuals in the U.S. is a larger group than any set of employees of a given corporation.

There is no reason that company groups are cheaper. And again, this gives employers too much power over their employees, and STILL limits choices to both the state cartel, and who within that cartel the employer made a deal with.

Break the state by state cartel. Break employer control.

We don't need to get fast food through our employer and it's cheap. Why? REal competition. Not competition on preselected short list of fascist cronified companies.

This is a real suggestion and a real solution.

I know you're bought off fascist corporate lawyer, but consider america first.

And we need caps on punitive damages.

Hermes Thoth
09-21-2009, 05:23 AM
Medical care has evolved in a fascistic pattern. We need to undo a lot of damage and restructure a lot.

We need to get as few parties between patients and doctors as possible.

Government option is not an answer. GROUP BARGAINING is just an idiot concept to maintain corporate control, because, as I said, the group of "all individuals" is larger than any given companies group of employees.

Lowaicue
09-21-2009, 06:48 AM
Medical care has evolved in a fascistic pattern. We need to undo a lot of damage and restructure a lot.

We need to get as few parties between patients and doctors as possible.

Government option is not an answer. GROUP BARGAINING is just an idiot concept to maintain corporate control, because, as I said, the group of "all individuals" is larger than any given companies group of employees.

The government option is, as far as I can see (and I'm sure you will correct me) the only one that has been spelled out. Do you honestly prefer to have your health and well being controlled by the greed of profit driven insurance companies?
Why do you think that America is the only first world nation not to have universal healthcare? Is it because you know more than the rest of the world? Isit because you have a worse system of government from the rest of the world? Or what is it?

BTW. You accuse me of introducing racism. I think you will find that it was, most recently, a certain Jimmy Carter. The subject of healthcare in America is difficult to discuss without the racist question. You must look to your own countrymen for that. Not to me. My aim is simply to find out why Americans have this enormous hang up against a president who has the potential to save your country from the disaster that was bush.
I have recently been in hospital for surgery. Let me tell you what happened.
Doctor carried out examination with a follow up ultra-sound check. A number of dates were offered to me. That day, the following week or sometime in the future decided by me. I opted for the latter and a few weeks later, on a Monday, presented myself at reception was taken to a ward and was cut open in time for lunch. One hour later I was trundled to a recovery ward and then to a general ward with six beds. I was home, in pain, certainly, for Wednesday tea. One week later I had the wound checked and dressed and two weeks after that a final check.
Total cost? Guess.
Oh, not once, not one single time, was I ever asked about insurance. Not once was I ever asked to justify my financial position. Not once was I questioned as to my rights or otherwise to receive healthcare. The fact that the nursing staff had poor English was a frustration but apart from that, no complaints.

Lowaicue
09-21-2009, 06:51 AM
Population control is not a hidden agenda. It's explicitly stated by John Holdren science czar. He believe the state should decide who lives and dies, according to the criterias of social fitness.

Can you tell me the date of this gentleman's pronouncement?

Lowaicue
09-21-2009, 06:53 AM
Wrong. Many will continue to have non race based reasons for opposing a government option. But thanks for trying to inject race where it isn't the issue.

LOL. You suck at thinking.


and clearly you suck at nothing. You dont like being questioned, do you?

Hermes Thoth
09-21-2009, 10:34 AM
The government option is, as far as I can see (and I'm sure you will correct me) the only one that has been spelled out. Do you honestly prefer to have your health and well being controlled by the greed of profit driven insurance companies?
Why do you think that America is the only first world nation not to have universal healthcare? Is it because you know more than the rest of the world? Isit because you have a worse system of government from the rest of the world? Or what is it?

BTW. You accuse me of introducing racism. I think you will find that it was, most recently, a certain Jimmy Carter. The subject of healthcare in America is difficult to discuss without the racist question. You must look to your own countrymen for that. Not to me. My aim is simply to find out why Americans have this enormous hang up against a president who has the potential to save your country from the disaster that was bush.
I have recently been in hospital for surgery. Let me tell you what happened.
Doctor carried out examination with a follow up ultra-sound check. A number of dates were offered to me. That day, the following week or sometime in the future decided by me. I opted for the latter and a few weeks later, on a Monday, presented myself at reception was taken to a ward and was cut open in time for lunch. One hour later I was trundled to a recovery ward and then to a general ward with six beds. I was home, in pain, certainly, for Wednesday tea. One week later I had the wound checked and dressed and two weeks after that a final check.
Total cost? Guess.
Oh, not once, not one single time, was I ever asked about insurance. Not once was I ever asked to justify my financial position. Not once was I questioned as to my rights or otherwise to receive healthcare. The fact that the nursing staff had poor English was a frustration but apart from that, no complaints.

See. a small set of insurance companies are in bed with state governments and local big businesses. This corrupt accretion of power conspires against consumers to keep a) interests consolidated and b) healthy profits in place, with a kickback mechanism to companies. We need something akin to trust busting. We need to allow interstate and perhaps even foreign health insurance competition and break the state cartels. Period. Giving the genocidal nazi feds contol is the last thing we should do. Bilderberger population reduction nwo noahide new world order masonic nihilism satanic Olam ha ba.

SmarterthanYou
09-21-2009, 10:50 AM
Is the right's stand against the health care plan based upon

a) a dislike if your presidents race or colour? No
b) the fear or dislike of big government? Partially
c) the dislike or fear of socialism? Partially
d) the fear of losing the freedoms for which your nation has struggled since its inception? not exactly
e) something else.

the dislike of big government is probably the biggest concern. It's long been understood by people that can objectivly look at issues that the more government involvement there is in any issue, the costlier it becomes due to governments inability to be efficient. Government has no responsibility to be efficient, nor do they have any liability when they are not. The government does not produce, it only consumes. If the government were able to produce things, like profit, then it would stand to reason that there would be no need for people to succeed on their own. The government could just work and supply for them. Because government only consumes, it takes from us (the productive citizen) in order to feed its consumption. This taking inhibits the citizen from furthering our own economy, as well as the nations, by leaving us less money to do so. Any entitlement program created by government also has the unintended consequence (or is it purposefully?) of removing some of our own freedoms regarding whatever the subject of the program entails. Continuing encroachment of our liberties is what has people concerned. We've seen all too much of it over the last 80 years.

Canceled2
09-21-2009, 10:50 AM
1. tort reform - i'm on the fence on this, and yes, partly because of my profession. the other part is, the studies or so called studies, have shown that in states with tort reform, insurance rates have still gone up and nothing has changed except....the personal injury awards

2. i assume you mean insurance, if so, yes

3. why? you get far better rates and also coverage with group bargaining....individual ins rates are crazy, group rates are somewhat rational and you can sometimes get in preexisting conditions.....not so with individual rates

On 3.~~~Allowing a deregulation of state controls would require a willingness for federal oversight, a new control as it were. This would allow for a real co-op to take place where individuals could search for a co-op (group) to join to have discounts for being a part of a larger group. It really is the best free market option.

Lowaicue
09-21-2009, 04:25 PM
the dislike of big government is probably the biggest concern. It's long been understood by people that can objectivly look at issues that the more government involvement there is in any issue, the costlier it becomes due to governments inability to be efficient. Government has no responsibility to be efficient, nor do they have any liability when they are not. The government does not produce, it only consumes. If the government were able to produce things, like profit, then it would stand to reason that there would be no need for people to succeed on their own. The government could just work and supply for them. Because government only consumes, it takes from us (the productive citizen) in order to feed its consumption. This taking inhibits the citizen from furthering our own economy, as well as the nations, by leaving us less money to do so. Any entitlement program created by government also has the unintended consequence (or is it purposefully?) of removing some of our own freedoms regarding whatever the subject of the program entails. Continuing encroachment of our liberties is what has people concerned. We've seen all too much of it over the last 80 years.

Thank you for that. A good answer. Exectly what I was looking for.

Lowaicue
09-21-2009, 04:37 PM
the dislike of big government is probably the biggest concern. It's long been understood by people that can objectivly look at issues that the more government involvement there is in any issue, the costlier it becomes due to governments inability to be efficient. Government has no responsibility to be efficient, nor do they have any liability when they are not. The government does not produce, it only consumes. If the government were able to produce things, like profit, then it would stand to reason that there would be no need for people to succeed on their own. The government could just work and supply for them. Because government only consumes, it takes from us (the productive citizen) in order to feed its consumption. This taking inhibits the citizen from furthering our own economy, as well as the nations, by leaving us less money to do so. Any entitlement program created by government also has the unintended consequence (or is it purposefully?) of removing some of our own freedoms regarding whatever the subject of the program entails. Continuing encroachment of our liberties is what has people concerned. We've seen all too much of it over the last 80 years.

Let me ask a couple of questions based on what you say here:
Would you agree that, despite the fact that mistrust and dislike of big government is almost universal, nations with such have the best healthcare systems and sometimes the healthiest populations. Is there no compromise you are willing to take? Do you really want to continue paying ten times more than you should be for your healthcare?
Next socialism. What is your definition of socialism? Is all socialism the same? What is your alternative? I have asked for people's definition of socialism here before. I dont think anyone has ever given a straight answer and the sound bites that are offered are so wide of the mark as to be not worthy of discussion.
Different mixes of capitalism/socialism exist all over the world and in many cases they have been demonstrably better at getting out of the recent financial problems than has the US.

Lowaicue
09-21-2009, 04:44 PM
See. a small set of insurance companies are in bed with state governments and local big businesses. This corrupt accretion of power conspires against consumers to keep a) interests consolidated and b) healthy profits in place, with a kickback mechanism to companies. We need something akin to trust busting. We need to allow interstate and perhaps even foreign health insurance competition and break the state cartels. Period. Giving the genocidal nazi feds contol is the last thing we should do. Bilderberger population reduction nwo noahide new world order masonic nihilism satanic Olam ha ba.

How do you propose regulating insurance companies? Are you saying that your state governments are corrupt? If so why doesnt someone take out a civil action against them. Why do you vote these people in?
But the whole system in America is run by corruption. Corrupt practices within insurance companies and price gouging by the medication manufacturers and suppliers. Is it fair to say that you prefer this to a government run system?
I think the Bilderberg conspiracy theory is best kept for another thread. It is likely to cloud the main issue.

Hermes Thoth
09-21-2009, 06:06 PM
How do you propose regulating insurance companies? Are you saying that your state governments are corrupt? If so why doesnt someone take out a civil action against them. Why do you vote these people in?
But the whole system in America is run by corruption. Corrupt practices within insurance companies and price gouging by the medication manufacturers and suppliers. Is it fair to say that you prefer this to a government run system?
I think the Bilderberg conspiracy theory is best kept for another thread. It is likely to cloud the main issue.

How do you?

Lowaicue
09-21-2009, 06:10 PM
How do you?


I don't have to. I am not in America.

Hermes Thoth
09-21-2009, 06:19 PM
I don't have to. I am not in America.

Exactly. So please STFU.

Lowaicue
09-21-2009, 06:23 PM
Exactly. So please STFU.


You are entitled to say that. Does your own quest for knowledge stop at your own shores? Are you not interested in other nations, other ideas? maybe that's your problem?
You are a great one for the single line insult, aren't you? That suggests a very narrow sphere of knowledge and a very shallow character. However its yours. Be proud of that.

Don Quixote
09-21-2009, 06:57 PM
Big government afficionados either don't understand that price fixing, wage fixing etc. WILL CAUSE RATIONING, or they know and are cynically implementing the population control/ eugenics directives of UNESCO.

The worst charactered people rise to the top of modern statist bureaucracies. Giving them power over life and death merely extends their power over our lives, which is a bad idea considering the nihilism of their ruling ideology.

Why should we trust people who believe humans are evil and should be eliminated from earth, to save the Earth Mother Spirit?

we already have rationing

more people die for lack of medical care than are killed by murder, manslaughter AND drunk/impaired drivers

uscitizen
09-21-2009, 07:54 PM
Exactly. So please STFU.

You do not live inn the same universe as America either.
Of course I do not either. Mine is more logical and less emo driven.

Hermes Thoth
09-22-2009, 04:58 AM
we already have rationing

more people die for lack of medical care than are killed by murder, manslaughter AND drunk/impaired drivers

There would be MORE rationing in a gov system. *shrug*

Hermes Thoth
09-22-2009, 04:59 AM
You are entitled to say that. Does your own quest for knowledge stop at your own shores? Are you not interested in other nations, other ideas? maybe that's your problem?
You are a great one for the single line insult, aren't you? That suggests a very narrow sphere of knowledge and a very shallow character. However its yours. Be proud of that.

I just don't aspire to be like failed socialist states.

I like other ideas, just not stupid ones. Im anti-stupidity.

PostmodernProphet
09-22-2009, 05:07 AM
There's no wage and price fixinng in this bill.

HR3200 is FUNDED by $500billion in price fixing.....

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 05:31 AM
I just don't aspire to be like failed socialist states.

I like other ideas, just not stupid ones. Im anti-stupidity.


Which failed socialist states in particular?

Hermes Thoth
09-22-2009, 05:32 AM
Which failed socialist states in particular?

I prefer to be unlike any failed socialist state.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 05:40 AM
I prefer to be unlike any failed socialist state.

Do you know of any socialist states? Do you know of other alternatives to Bushism? Would you say that Europe is socialist? How about Scandinavia? Is China Socialist? Stop hiding behind smart-arse sound bites.

Hermes Thoth
09-22-2009, 05:43 AM
Do you know of any socialist states? Do you know of other alternatives to Bushism? Would you say that Europe is socialist? How about Scandinavia? Is China Socialist? Stop hiding behind smart-arse sound bites.

Socialism is actually fascism. Communism is actually fascism.

Whether corporations take over government or government takesover corporations, the end result is the same: an oligarchy which parasitizes the common man.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 05:50 AM
Socialism is actually fascism. Communism is actually fascism.

Whether corporations take over government or government takesover corporations, the end result is the same: an oligarchy which parasitizes the common man.


so why don't you answer the question?
and what do you call it when corporations take over the people?

Hermes Thoth
09-22-2009, 05:56 AM
so why don't you answer the question?
and what do you call it when corporations take over the people?

Any takeover is totalitarianism. goverment or business.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 06:29 AM
Any takeover is totalitarianism. goverment or business.

so is it fair to say that you tend towards the anarchist view?
what exactly are you so frightened of? Your mother been telling you terrible tales of other worlds, monsters and demons?
Once again you resort to the smart arse sound bite. Why not try a complete answer?

Hermes Thoth
09-22-2009, 06:38 AM
so is it fair to say that you tend towards the anarchist view?
what exactly are you so frightened of? Your mother been telling you terrible tales of other worlds, monsters and demons?
Once again you resort to the smart arse sound bite. Why not try a complete answer?

Nope. Populist view.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 07:24 AM
Nope. Populist view.

Not much point in continuing with this. You are incapable , unwilling or frightened of giving an intelligent response. You hide behind silly insults and ill-thought sound bites.
Why do you come to a discussion forum? Wouldn't you be happier somewhere else?
Perhaps you are much younger than I took you for in which case I can only try to suggest that you read a little more (real books not speech bubbles) and we'll speak again when you have matured.

Hermes Thoth
09-22-2009, 07:31 AM
Not much point in continuing with this. You are incapable , unwilling or frightened of giving an intelligent response. You hide behind silly insults and ill-thought sound bites.
Why do you come to a discussion forum? Wouldn't you be happier somewhere else?
Perhaps you are much younger than I took you for in which case I can only try to suggest that you read a little more (real books not speech bubbles) and we'll speak again when you have matured.

I'm sorry your dissatisfied with your experience here.

I've made it clear many times what I want. bust up of state by state insurance cartels. Get the employer out of the middle.

I want individuals shopping directly, instead of choosing from the cronified kickback cartel shortlist provided to them by their employer.

Why don't you grow up and add something to the discussion instead being mr. question man. How about you be an actual person?

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 07:47 AM
I'm sorry your dissatisfied with your experience here.

I've made it clear many times what I want. bust up of state by state insurance cartels. Get the employer out of the middle.

I want individuals shopping directly, instead of choosing from the cronified kickback cartel shortlist provided to them by their employer.

Why don't you grow up and add something to the discussion instead being mr. question man. How about you be an actual person?


I stated at the very beginning that I was trying to understand. The thread is called 'The Quest for Knowledge'.
I have given you a taste of my own experience and suggested that I was moderately happy with that experience. I have also asked you to define your own opinion without being a smart arse.
I am unable to offer an opinion on American healthcare any more than I could discuss Nepalese stamp collecting. I am neither Nepalese nor American.
I am simply an onlooker. I watched as America was attacked and I watched as London was attacked. I watched as Spain was attacked. I watched as Americans changed from being world leaders to being a sad laughing stock by simply voting for one man, Bush. I watched as economies round the world suffered their worst downturn since the 1930s and I have watched as many of those economies have pulled themselves out.
I look over my shoulder at your country as it tries to keep up and wonder how can so many people in one country be so ignorant and unwilling to learn.
And I watch as finally you elect one of the only people who might, just might, do more than stick Elastoplast on the wound and I am now watching as idiots do their best to destroy him and sink back into the mire that was your country after Bush.
Many on the right criticise Islamists for wanting to stay in the 7th Century. Aren't you doing the same with just a few centuries different?

Hermes Thoth
09-22-2009, 08:02 AM
I stated at the very beginning that I was trying to understand. The thread is called 'The Quest for Knowledge'.
I have given you a taste of my own experience and suggested that I was moderately happy with that experience. I have also asked you to define your own opinion without being a smart arse.
I am unable to offer an opinion on American healthcare any more than I could discuss Nepalese stamp collecting. I am neither Nepalese nor American.
I am simply an onlooker. I watched as America was attacked and I watched as London was attacked. I watched as Spain was attacked. I watched as Americans changed from being world leaders to being a sad laughing stock by simply voting for one man, Bush. I watched as economies round the world suffered their worst downturn since the 1930s and I have watched as many of those economies have pulled themselves out.
I look over my shoulder at your country as it tries to keep up and wonder how can so many people in one country be so ignorant and unwilling to learn.
And I watch as finally you elect one of the only people who might, just might, do more than stick Elastoplast on the wound and I am now watching as idiots do their best to destroy him and sink back into the mire that was your country after Bush.
Many on the right criticise Islamists for wanting to stay in the 7th Century. Aren't you doing the same with just a few centuries different?

One can;t learn from people that are stupider. You've put the eugenicist population control freaks in place. You suck at the teat of oligarchical collectivism.

We say no to big brother.

Didn't you learn from Winston Smith?

I will never learn to love Big Brother.

2+2=4

Hermes Thoth
09-22-2009, 08:28 AM
This fight is for nothing less than freedom itself. True story.

egordon0315
09-22-2009, 09:34 AM
I am concerned that my totally adequate healthcare plan will have an additional cost from the feds. I pay quite a bit for mine. I don't want it to cost more for me to pay for those who don't want to take care of themselves.

I would love for medicare to extend coverage to those who are not covered now. That number is low. But don't revamp the healthcare that is working now. Just extend it to all.


Since I seek opinions of others your suggestion hold little sense.
After approximately one and a half hours no right winger here has bothered to respond. I thought for a moment that you had but your comment is a little childish, dont you think?

Let me extend my question.

Is the right's stand against the health care plan based upon

a) a dislike if your presidents race or colour? or
b) the fear or dislike of big government? or
c) the dislike or fear of socialism?
d) the fear of losing the freedoms for which your nation has struggled since its inception?
e) something else.
f) all of the above.

Please be prepared to support you contentions. This is a genuine desire to understand a question that bothers many people.

Cancel 2016.2
09-22-2009, 11:29 AM
Will one of the more erudite members of the right wing please explain to me, a simple Brit, why you are against your president's health care plan.
In your answer please refrain from using the words:
Socialist/ism, fascist/ism, Kenya(n).
Try to make your answers sensible and without bad language and insult. D'you think you could do that?
For the moment I am not interested in the centre or left of centre view.

Because it does not address the reasons behind the ever increasing costs of health care.

Cancel 2016.2
09-22-2009, 11:33 AM
Since I seek opinions of others your suggestion hold little sense.
After approximately one and a half hours no right winger here has bothered to respond. I thought for a moment that you had but your comment is a little childish, dont you think?

Let me extend my question.

Is the right's stand against the health care plan based upon

a) a dislike if your presidents race or colour? or
b) the fear or dislike of big government? or
c) the dislike or fear of socialism?
d) the fear of losing the freedoms for which your nation has struggled since its inception?
e) something else.
f) all of the above.

Please be prepared to support you contentions. This is a genuine desire to understand a question that bothers many people.

Why do idiots continue to pretend that Obama's race is an issue? That is simply a strawman created to paint opponents as racists. If you want answers to educate yourself, I would suggest you not use such idiocy in your own posts.

Cancel 2016.2
09-22-2009, 11:35 AM
Waste occurs at all levels of government. This has become accepted to the point where it is unremarkable. While I cannot give any specific examples, I can point to my own dealings with government run helathcare: The military.

Those without firsthand experience would say we give our armed forces the best care imaginable. But this is hardly the case. In my own BAS (Battalion Aid Station, the equivelent of your local doctors office) I have had to wait for weeks to be seen for significant problems, only to be pushed aside with Aleve and the advice to "drink more water". I cannot say for certain this is the way a government run healthcare system would turn out. But even the possibility is enough to make me against it.

As for the constitutional angle, mandating that all citizens have health insurance violates the 9th and 10th amendments of our constitution and one of founding ideals of personal freedom. Our founding fathers were all very skeptical of big government and rightly so. They naturally wanted to have as little government involvment in their personal lives as possible.

To add to your point, simply point to the fact that the Obama administration admits it has found $500 billion in waste in Medicare that it will cut to help pay for their initiative.

Which begs the question... if you KNOW there is $500 billion in waste there, why not start by fixing this problem. Because if there is that much waste in a government run program it is very hard to believe there won't be something similar in an even larger program of the same nature.

Cancel 2016.2
09-22-2009, 11:45 AM
Let me ask a couple of questions based on what you say here:
Would you agree that, despite the fact that mistrust and dislike of big government is almost universal, nations with such have the best healthcare systems and sometimes the healthiest populations. Is there no compromise you are willing to take? Do you really want to continue paying ten times more than you should be for your healthcare?
Next socialism. What is your definition of socialism? Is all socialism the same? What is your alternative? I have asked for people's definition of socialism here before. I dont think anyone has ever given a straight answer and the sound bites that are offered are so wide of the mark as to be not worthy of discussion.
Different mixes of capitalism/socialism exist all over the world and in many cases they have been demonstrably better at getting out of the recent financial problems than has the US.

The best health care system in the world is right here in the US, when it comes to efficiency in getting in to see the doctor, technology, privacy and quality of care.

Costs are an issue and something that should be addressed. But pretending universal health care is better is simply nonsense. Look at the WHO report and read where it is that the US gets 'deductions' in its ranking... it is in the subjective areas like 'fairness' of payments etc...

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 04:59 PM
I am concerned that my totally adequate healthcare plan will have an additional cost from the feds. I pay quite a bit for mine. I don't want it to cost more for me to pay for those who don't want to take care of themselves.

I would love for medicare to extend coverage to those who are not covered now. That number is low. But don't revamp the healthcare that is working now. Just extend it to all.

Thanks again, Liz.
Didn't Obama categorically state that his plan would cost no more than that in place now? You already pay more for your healthcare than any other first world nation. Is that something you want to continue? Can you get surgery and 2 days (three days including the op day) for US$31.25 with a dressing check and change for a little less than US$2.00 and NO insurance ever mentioned? You say that the number of people not covered is low. If one person fails to get adequate medical care do you consider than acceptable?
Your insurance scams (for that is what they are) and the scams in the cost of your medications cannot be extended to all. Those companies are allowed to refuse treatment and frequently do. Isn't the only way to extend healthcare to all to accept all or some of the presidents plan? or am I, once again, mistaken?

Hermes Thoth
09-22-2009, 05:03 PM
Thanks again, Liz.
Didn't Obama categorically state that his plan would cost no more than that in place now? You already pay more for your healthcare than any other first world nation. Is that something you want to continue? Can you get surgery and 2 days (three days including the op day) for US$31.25 with a dressing check and change for a little less than US$2.00 and NO insurance ever mentioned? You say that the number of people not covered is low. If one person fails to get adequate medical care do you consider than acceptable?
Your insurance scams (for that is what they are) and the scams in the cost of your medications cannot be extended to all. Those companies are allowed to refuse treatment and frequently do. Isn't the only way to extend healthcare to all to accept all or some of the presidents plan? or am I, once again, mistaken?

Oh yeah. Everyone covered and no extra costs! It's magic. Do you just believe everything authority figures tell you? If so, that means you're stupid.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 05:04 PM
The best health care system in the world is right here in the US, when it comes to efficiency in getting in to see the doctor, technology, privacy and quality of care.

Costs are an issue and something that should be addressed. But pretending universal health care is better is simply nonsense. Look at the WHO report and read where it is that the US gets 'deductions' in its ranking... it is in the subjective areas like 'fairness' of payments etc...


If the best healthcare system in the world exists in the US why is no one happy with it? Why does it cost you TEN times what it would cost me? Why do the poor miss out?
You are in grave danger of believing right wing propaganda. Bit like those poor souls living under totalitarian systems.
North Koreans believe the same as you do about their system.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 05:10 PM
Oh yeah. Everyone covered and no extra costs! It's magic. Do you just believe everything authority figures tell you? If so, that means you're stupid.


The reason I was absent from this forum was that I had several (to use a horrible americanism) health issues. I also had a massive heart attack the treatment for which cost me a staggering US$2750.00 plus about US$30 which included a month with a physiotherapist, and the first 3 months medications. Subsequent top ups ( for four drugs) costs me approximately US$8.75 for 3 months.
That's not magic. That's government of the people, for the people, by the people.
If you didnt have such a shakey economy and such myopic views of the world and its imagined dangers you could have the same.
You gonna refuse that?

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 05:14 PM
Why do idiots continue to pretend that Obama's race is an issue? That is simply a strawman created to paint opponents as racists. If you want answers to educate yourself, I would suggest you not use such idiocy in your own posts.

IS race an issue? Why do you single that out for criticism? You are a racist nation and an ex president brought the subject into the limelight.
In the run up to the election race was played hard by people on the right. He was not American. He was black. He was Muslim. He was Kenyan. Dont criticise me for reflecting common American views.

Hermes Thoth
09-22-2009, 05:15 PM
The reason I was absent from this forum was that I had several (to use a horrible americanism) health issues. I also had a massive heart attack the treatment for which cost me a staggering US$2750.00 plus about US$30 which included a month with a physiotherapist, and the first 3 months medications. Subsequent top ups ( for four drugs) costs me approximately US$8.75 for 3 months.
That's not magic. That's government of the people, for the people, by the people.
If you didnt have such a shakey economy and such myopic views of the world and its imagined dangers you could have the same.
You gonna refuse that?

but medical care is an added cost to your budget. And so a public option would necessarily be an additional cost to ours. i don't believe it would be no extra cost. That's just stupid. are you stupid?

cawacko
09-22-2009, 05:16 PM
If the best healthcare system in the world exists in the US why is no one happy with it? Why does it cost you TEN times what it would cost me? Why do the poor miss out?
You are in grave danger of believing right wing propaganda. Bit like those poor souls living under totalitarian systems.
North Koreans believe the same as you do about their system.

A lot of people are happy with it (outside the cost issue) which is why you see so many people out protesting its overhaul. To repeat Superfreak's post the services most receive are second to none. The issue of costs is what needs to be dealt with.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 05:21 PM
A lot of people are happy with it (outside the cost issue) which is why you see so many people out protesting its overhaul. To repeat Superfreak's post the services most receive are second to none. The issue of costs is what needs to be dealt with.

But it is those costs which ration the service and which prevent the poor from receiving adequate care. How will you address the costs? You seem to be refusing to discuss the matter with your president.
I dont suppose that you are hiding behand the cost issue for ... er.... some other ... er ... reason, are you?
You talk of 'most'. Is that acceptable to you?

cawacko
09-22-2009, 05:24 PM
But it is those costs which ration the service and which prevent the poor from receiving adequate care. How will you address the costs? You seem to be refusing to discuss the matter with your president.
I dont suppose that you are hiding behand the cost issue for ... er.... some other ... er ... reason, are you?
You talk of 'most'. Is that acceptable to you?

If you are hinting at something please let me know. I'm a big boy I can handle it.

Yes it is acceptable to me. I got my ass beat by four thugs about four months ago. Spent a week and a half in hospital and had to get plastic surgery. Shit was hell of expensive but I got great work done by great doctors.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 05:27 PM
If you are hinting at something please let me know. I'm a big boy I can handle it.

Yes it is acceptable to me. I got my ass beat by four thugs about four months ago. Spent a week and a half in hospital and had to get plastic surgery. Shit was hell of expensive but I got great work done by great doctors.

and suppose, just suppose, you didnt have enough money. Then what? Same service?

cawacko
09-22-2009, 05:27 PM
IS race an issue? Why do you single that out for criticism? You are a racist nation and an ex president brought the subject into the limelight.
In the run up to the election race was played hard by people on the right. He was not American. He was black. He was Muslim. He was Kenyan. Dont criticise me for reflecting common American views.

See now I know you are coming from a partisan position not one of 'wanting to learn'. Race played an issue in the Democratic Primary between Obama and Hillary. You know between Democrats, the compassionate non racist folks. It is not just a 'right-wing' issue.

Partisan politics did not start in the U.S. with Barack Obama. And to think the President was going reengineer 1/6th of the U.S. economy and not have people get passionate about it?

cawacko
09-22-2009, 05:29 PM
and suppose, just suppose, you didnt have enough money. Then what? Same service?

I don't have money, I have insurance. And if I didn't have insurance I would have gotten service anyway.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 05:33 PM
See now I know you are coming from a partisan position not one of 'wanting to learn'. Race played an issue in the Democratic Primary between Obama and Hillary. You know between Democrats, the compassionate non racist folks. It is not just a 'right-wing' issue.

Partisan politics did not start in the U.S. with Barack Obama. And to think the President was going reengineer 1/6th of the U.S. economy and not have people get passionate about it?

Race played a part in the election. I dont give a shit whether it was from the right or from the 'left' as you call it. The fact is that you are a racist nation and are known for it. I didnt introduce the subject. My 'suggestion' might well have referred to race or partisan politics. You may choose.
The fact remains that under this president your nation has the chance of putting the lunacy of bush behind you. If you want to be a nation of 'naysayers' please go ahead, I couldnt give a toss. But dont ever think you are special. Not anymore you aint.

cawacko
09-22-2009, 05:34 PM
IS race an issue? Why do you single that out for criticism? You are a racist nation and an ex president brought the subject into the limelight.
In the run up to the election race was played hard by people on the right. He was not American. He was black. He was Muslim. He was Kenyan. Dont criticise me for reflecting common American views.

Is it your belief then that if John Edwards had won the Democratic Primary and then the Presidency and tried to overhaul the health care system that he would not face as much opposition as Obama currently is because he is white?

cawacko
09-22-2009, 05:37 PM
Race played a part in the election. I dont give a shit whether it was from the right or from the 'left' as you call it. The fact is that you are a racist nation and are known for it. I didnt introduce the subject. My 'suggestion' might well have referred to race or partisan politics. You may choose.
The fact remains that under this president your nation has the chance of putting the lunacy of bush behind you. If you want to be a nation of 'naysayers' please go ahead, I couldnt give a toss. But dont ever think you are special. Not anymore you aint.

LOL, yeah ok Brit. We are such a racist nation we just elected a black President. That makes a whole lot of sense.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 06:24 PM
I don't have money, I have insurance. And if I didn't have insurance I would have gotten service anyway.

If you didnt have money you would have had the same service? Then tell me, please, why so many people are refused service in your country?

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 06:25 PM
Is it your belief then that if John Edwards had won the Democratic Primary and then the Presidency and tried to overhaul the health care system that he would not face as much opposition as Obama currently is because he is white?

Who is John Edwards?

cawacko
09-22-2009, 06:26 PM
If you didnt have money you would have had the same service? Then tell me, please, why so many people are refused service in your country?

I wouldn't have had the same doctors but I would have had service. I was originally at a hospital for uninsured people who were all receiving service.

cawacko
09-22-2009, 06:27 PM
Who is John Edwards?

Rich white man who ran against Obama and Hillary.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 06:27 PM
LOL, yeah ok Brit. We are such a racist nation we just elected a black President. That makes a whole lot of sense.

Why do you call him a black president when one parent was white? Why not call him a white president or simply 'a president'?
And whether you believe your own propaganda or not you are internationally known for your ingrained racism.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 06:29 PM
I wouldn't have had the same doctors but I would have had service. I was originally at a hospital for uninsured people who were all receiving service.


Then I must concur. If you could have received the best service as a poor American there is certainly no reason to change the system. Dont you think the other poor Americans should be told of this?

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 06:51 PM
Is this true?

The United States spends 14 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP) on health care, more than any other country, yet one in seven Americans -- a total of 45 million people, including 8.4 million children -- lack health insurance. The middle class are the largest group among the newly uninsured.

Out-of-pocket healthcare costs for workers rose 50 percent between 2000 and 2003, and half of all bankruptcies, now at record levels, are attributed to health care costs. Meanwhile, the cost of the ten most-used prescription drugs has increased nearly 9 percent in 2003, outpacing inflation.

Does that paint a picture of a successful nation at peace with itself? A nation boasting the best healthcare in the world? Or is it all a 'damn pack o' lahz'?

uscitizen
09-22-2009, 06:59 PM
If you didnt have money you would have had the same service? Then tell me, please, why so many people are refused service in your country?

No I would not have had the same service.

Plus there is one issue that everyone on here seems to have overlooked. Perhaps there is not much of it left.
I am speaking of personal pride and honor and not wanting to accept handouts.
A feeling of self esteem is not to be considered at all?


I have always made my own way and always will or I will make no way at all.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 07:16 PM
No I would not have had the same service.

Plus there is one issue that everyone on here seems to have overlooked. Perhaps there is not much of it left.
I am speaking of personal pride and honor and not wanting to accept handouts.
A feeling of self esteem is not to be considered at all?


I have always made my own way and always will or I will make no way at all.


That is highly commendable. But what of those for whom making their own way is not an option. The only way one can be richer than average is by someone else being poorer than average. Don't these people count? Have we reached a situation where we pass by on the other side and are proud to brag of it? I am sure that is not the case.
I was just talking of the differences between people with my better half. We realised that most things we do in our own lives include a consideration for others (no, we are not religious and I am not trying to appear a paragon of virtue). Its just that we are now totally conscious of the mess we make of the planet and of the fact that millions of people's lives are sacrificed so that we can live better then them. There are many more things that we could do and many ways in which we could be less selfish, but we are, after all, just human.

uscitizen
09-22-2009, 07:21 PM
That is highly commendable. But what of those for whom making their own way is not an option. The only way one can be richer than average is by someone else being poorer than average. Don't these people count? Have we reached a situation where we pass by on the other side and are proud to brag of it? I am sure that is not the case.
I was just talking of the differences between people with my better half. We realised that most things we do in our own lives include a consideration for others (no, we are not religious and I am not trying to appear a paragon of virtue). Its just that we are now totally conscious of the mess we make of the planet and of the fact that millions of people's lives are sacrificed so that we can live better then them. There are many more things that we could do and many ways in which we could be less selfish, but we are, after all, just human.

Why I am in favor of nationalized health care.
Not this corporate leaning mishmash that we will wind up with.
And no if you do not have money or insurance in America you do not get the same medical/health service.

Canceled2
09-22-2009, 07:32 PM
but medical care is an added cost to your budget. And so a public option would necessarily be an additional cost to ours. i don't believe it would be no extra cost. That's just stupid. are you stupid?

According to Low, he has a lot of money. He can find better medical care if need be. In his situation (if we are to take him at his word) his care met his need. There are plenty of stories just as compelling as his from universal care nations that speak of the long wait times, medicine that is refused, care that is withheld~~~ and all of this paid for at exorbitant tax rates to the people receiving this mediocre care. Why shouldn't they be happy with it, it's all they have known. As a final mention Canada has said that their system has caused them to go broke...they, the government, can no longer carry the burden. Translation of course is that their system is broken or broke to be more accurate.

Canceled1
09-22-2009, 07:39 PM
Why I am in favor of nationalized health care.
Not this corporate leaning mishmash that we will wind up with.
And no if you do not have money or insurance in America you do not get the same medical/health service.

I, for one, would love to see it pass just for you, so when the time comes and the government panel of administrators decide your ancient ass is too old for the extraordinary medical procedure to clear your bowel obstruction, there will be irrefutable proof you are and always were full of $hit.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 07:53 PM
According to Low, he has a lot of money. He can find better medical care if need be. In his situation (if we are to take him at his word) his care met his need. There are plenty of stories just as compelling as his from universal care nations that speak of the long wait times, medicine that is refused, care that is withheld~~~ and all of this paid for on at exorbitant tax rates to the people receiving this mediocre care. Why shouldn't they be happy with it, it's all they have known. As a final mention Canada has said that their system has caused them to go broke...they, the government, can no longer carry the burden. Translation of course is that their system is broken or broke to be more accurate.

No, I do not have a lot of money. Far from it - although everything is comparative. Our tax rate is 16% across the board after a basic US$15,000 pa (I may be wrong on the figure). We have no capital gains tax and no VAT. We are basically a duty free economy with some notable exceptions.
Care is never witheld despite the fact that the system is open to abuse from mainlanders who try to have their babies here. They are never turned away once they reach the door even though they cost HK millions. If I wanted to have a higher standard of care I could pay for it and have done in the past. The fact is that in an emergency one is taken to ones local hospital and that suited me fine. The beds were modern, all singing, all dancing, the nurses generally were very pretty but, I must own to the fact, the food was crap.
Wait times may be long in non urgent cases but what is long? Long is maybe a couple of weeks or so. But the choice rests with the patient. I have another op scheduled for early December (my choice. I tend not to like being cut open!). If the condition worsens or causes me more concern I can call the hospital and go straight in.
Strange, isnt it, that there is very little public discussion about medical services here except, as in any society, when something goes wrong.

Canceled2
09-22-2009, 08:12 PM
No, I do not have a lot of money. Far from it - although everything is comparative. Our tax rate is 16% across the board after a basic US$15,000 pa (I may be wrong on the figure). We have no capital gains tax and no VAT. We are basically a duty free economy with some notable exceptions.
Care is never witheld despite the fact that the system is open to abuse from mainlanders who try to have their babies here. They are never turned away once they reach the door even though they cost HK millions. If I wanted to have a higher standard of care I could pay for it and have done in the past. The fact is that in an emergency one is taken to ones local hospital and that suited me fine. The beds were modern, all singing, all dancing, the nurses generally were very pretty but, I must own to the fact, the food was crap.
Wait times may be long in non urgent cases but what is long? Long is maybe a couple of weeks or so. But the choice rests with the patient. I have another op scheduled for early December (my choice. I tend not to like being cut open!). If the condition worsens or causes me more concern I can call the hospital and go straight in.
Strange, isnt it, that there is very little public discussion about medical services here except, as in any society, when something goes wrong.


Do you have private rooms? As to waits Low, that's not something that happens in our system. That HK may be a step above the UK with problems it should be noted that as HK grows the problems can easily magnify. I just googled a page that said that already HK is struggling with finding trained doctors and nurses to meet increasing demand. We are a nation with over 300 million who already have shortages of medical personnel. Your system is not for us.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 08:50 PM
Do you have private rooms? As to waits Low, that's not something that happens in our system. That HK may be a step above the UK with problems it should be noted that as HK grows the problems can easily magnify. I just googled a page that said that already HK is struggling with finding trained doctors and nurses to meet increasing demand. We are a nation with over 300 million who already have shortages of medical personnel. Your system is not for us.

No we do not have private rooms unless one goes 'private'. I would guess that the price of those would be close to the US. But if, as I was, you are on your back and in some pain, despite drugs, and your stay is short, it is hardly woth while. My family wanted to transfer me.
A single room will cost approximately US$200 per day and all told a fairly simple operation with 2 days hospital stay will cost about US$7,200.00. The surgeons will often be the same people that work in the public hospitals, that's how they make their money!
I don't know how that all compares with the US. Probably on a par I would guess.
And yes, like other countries we have shortages. Its a market economy and there is more money to be earned in real estate and law. But I speak to my surgeon on a regular basis and we share a glass sometimes. Suits me.
A good friend went private and regrets it. He was over medicated and did not get the after care that I got. He subsequently asked why he was having to take more drugs than I was and was told, 'Ah well, you don't actually have to take them, we just thought you might prefer. And anyway, your insurance company will pay.'
He refrained from physical violence on that occasion.
I think the plain fact is that many Americans are prejudiced against anything that they imagine is big government because in their ignorance it smacks of what they think is socialism. I can understand that. Shades of the evil soviets, Castro, McCarthyism.
I studied some American history and understand a little more now. I re-watched 'To Hell and Back', 'The Great Escape' and 'The Alamo'. Well that IS what you learn from, isnt it?

christiefan915
09-22-2009, 08:51 PM
The reason I was absent from this forum was that I had several (to use a horrible americanism) health issues. I also had a massive heart attack the treatment for which cost me a staggering US$2750.00 plus about US$30 which included a month with a physiotherapist, and the first 3 months medications. Subsequent top ups ( for four drugs) costs me approximately US$8.75 for 3 months.
That's not magic. That's government of the people, for the people, by the people.
If you didnt have such a shakey economy and such myopic views of the world and its imagined dangers you could have the same.
You gonna refuse that?

OMG, and here froggie and I were teasing you about going AWOL without telling us. I hope you're doing much, much better now. *scolding* Keep taking your meds and don't do that to us again! :)

christiefan915
09-22-2009, 08:54 PM
No we do not have private rooms unless one goes 'private'. I would guess that the price of those would be close to the US. But if, as I was, you are on your back and in some pain, despite drugs, and your stay is short, it is hardly woth while. My family wanted to transfer me.
A single room will cost approximately US$200 per day and all told a fairly simple operation with 2 days hospital stay will cost about US$7,200.00. The surgeons will often be the same people that work in the public hospitals, that's how they make their money!
I don't know how that all compares with the US. Probably on a par I would guess.
And yes, like other countries we have shortages. Its a market economy and there is more money to be earned in real estate and law. But I speak to my surgeon on a regular basis and we share a glass sometimes. Suits me.
A good friend went private and regrets it. He was over medicated and did not get the after care that I got. He subsequently asked why he was having to take more drugs than I was and was told, 'Ah well, you don't actually have to take them, we just thought you might prefer. And anyway, your insurance company will pay.'
He refrained from physical violence on that occasion.
I think the plain fact is that many Americans are prejudiced against anything that they imagine is big government because in their ignorance it smacks of what they think is socialism. I can understand that. Shades of the evil soviets, Castro, McCarthyism.
I studied some American history and understand a little more now. I re-watched 'To Hell and Back', 'The Great Escape' and 'The Alamo'. Well that IS what you learn from, isnt it?

$200/day for a single room would be way cheap here. A simple operation with 2 days' stay would probably be close to $10K, at least where I live.

Edit:

One of my kids had oral surgery in the office, a 15-minute procedure under light sedation, total time spent in office about 2 hours, and the cost was over US$2,000. We pay through the nose for medical treatment here.

Canceled2
09-22-2009, 09:00 PM
No we do not have private rooms unless one goes 'private'. I would guess that the price of those would be close to the US. But if, as I was, you are on your back and in some pain, despite drugs, and your stay is short, it is hardly woth while. My family wanted to transfer me.
A single room will cost approximately US$200 per day and all told a fairly simple operation with 2 days hospital stay will cost about US$7,200.00. The surgeons will often be the same people that work in the public hospitals, that's how they make their money!
I don't know how that all compares with the US. Probably on a par I would guess.
And yes, like other countries we have shortages. Its a market economy and there is more money to be earned in real estate and law. But I speak to my surgeon on a regular basis and we share a glass sometimes. Suits me.
A good friend went private and regrets it. He was over medicated and did not get the after care that I got. He subsequently asked why he was having to take more drugs than I was and was told, 'Ah well, you don't actually have to take them, we just thought you might prefer. And anyway, your insurance company will pay.'
He refrained from physical violence on that occasion.
I think the plain fact is that many Americans are prejudiced against anything that they imagine is big government because in their ignorance it smacks of what they think is socialism. I can understand that. Shades of the evil soviets, Castro, McCarthyism.
I studied some American history and understand a little more now. I re-watched 'To Hell and Back', 'The Great Escape' and 'The Alamo'. Well that IS what you learn from, isnt it?


85% of Americans like their private rooms, prompt care and top of the line medical advances at their avail. Mediocre care is a norm for you and you are OK with it. I am OK with you having what you want. The tit for tat stories we could exchange is just silly. It's easy enough to google and come up with all the problems related to national health care and the fact that they are sucking the life out of the economies that have them. Our system needs to be reformed. We have some great ideas that have been fought by democrats for years; they want their socialized programs even though most American's are opposed to it. Your anti American rants were not curbed by your brush with the knife…too bad. Of course that also means you won't play the hypocrite if I tire of it and give it back~~~

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 09:01 PM
OMG, and here froggie and I were teasing you about going AWOL without telling us. I hope you're doing much, much better now. *scolding* Keep taking your meds and don't do that to us again! :)

Oh it was a fun really. They wouldnt believe me when I said I had always had a low pulse. And when it hit 43 they all started to panic and wanted to gather the family at the bedside. The good thing was that I fell in love with several of the nurses and realised how much worse off I could have been. In the next room was a young lady with Lupus and not expected to survive. Made me cry a bit I must admit. Never actually saw her but felt I knew her a bit.
My phone was filled with lovely messages (some of which I had to delete!) and I had the biggest display of flowers and chocolates I have ever seen delivered to the house from two ex students.

belme1201
09-22-2009, 09:10 PM
No we do not have private rooms unless one goes 'private'. I would guess that the price of those would be close to the US. But if, as I was, you are on your back and in some pain, despite drugs, and your stay is short, it is hardly woth while. My family wanted to transfer me.
A single room will cost approximately US$200 per day and all told a fairly simple operation with 2 days hospital stay will cost about US$7,200.00. The surgeons will often be the same people that work in the public hospitals, that's how they make their money!
I don't know how that all compares with the US. Probably on a par I would guess.
And yes, like other countries we have shortages. Its a market economy and there is more money to be earned in real estate and law. But I speak to my surgeon on a regular basis and we share a glass sometimes. Suits me.
A good friend went private and regrets it. He was over medicated and did not get the after care that I got. He subsequently asked why he was having to take more drugs than I was and was told, 'Ah well, you don't actually have to take them, we just thought you might prefer. And anyway, your insurance company will pay.'
He refrained from physical violence on that occasion.
I think the plain fact is that many Americans are prejudiced against anything that they imagine is big government because in their ignorance it smacks of what they think is socialism. I can understand that. Shades of the evil soviets, Castro, McCarthyism.
I studied some American history and understand a little more now. I re-watched 'To Hell and Back', 'The Great Escape' and 'The Alamo'. Well that IS what you learn from, isnt it?

Sorry to hear about it, Low. Take care of yourself. You're my only connection, though it be cyber, left to HK. My friend in Atlanta put his daughter through med school and moved back last June. You and your fighting spirit were missed, several people were inquiring about you.

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 09:14 PM
Sorry to hear about it, Low. Take care of yourself. You're my only connection, though it be cyber, left to HK. My friend in Atlanta put his daughter through med school and moved back last June. You and your fighting spirit were missed, several people were inquiring about you.

I am truly touched .... but then, if you were to ask my wife she would say I always have been!

christiefan915
09-22-2009, 09:25 PM
I am truly touched .... but then, if you were to ask my wife she would say I always have been!

It's what we like about you!

Cancel5
09-22-2009, 10:12 PM
It's what we like about you!
Precisely!

Cancel5
09-22-2009, 10:14 PM
The reason I was absent from this forum was that I had several (to use a horrible americanism) health issues. I also had a massive heart attack the treatment for which cost me a staggering US$2750.00 plus about US$30 which included a month with a physiotherapist, and the first 3 months medications. Subsequent top ups ( for four drugs) costs me approximately US$8.75 for 3 months.
That's not magic. That's government of the people, for the people, by the people.
If you didnt have such a shakey economy and such myopic views of the world and its imagined dangers you could have the same.
You gonna refuse that?
Dear sweet man, I hope that all is better!!!!!! We missed you and now I am going to be keeping you in my thoughts!

Lowaicue
09-22-2009, 10:17 PM
Dear sweet man, I hope that all is better!!!!!! We missed you and now I am going to be keeping you in my thoughts!

but... but... but... your thoughts are sometimes ....



















naughty!
Will I be safe?

Cancel5
09-22-2009, 10:26 PM
but... but... but... your thoughts are sometimes ....



















naughty!
Will I be safe?
Always, you can tap out if you don't feel safe!

Cancel5
09-22-2009, 10:37 PM
Why do idiots continue to pretend that Obama's race is an issue? That is simply a strawman created to paint opponents as racists. If you want answers to educate yourself, I would suggest you not use such idiocy in your own posts.
You have got to admit there is a portion of the population that it is JUST race and they are racists.
Generally, with most people, it is not race, but with some it is just a fact, jack and they don't want no black cat!

belme1201
09-23-2009, 12:38 AM
I am truly touched .... but then, if you were to ask my wife she would say I always have been!

We have that in common.

Hermes Thoth
09-23-2009, 05:31 AM
You have got to admit there is a portion of the population that it is JUST race and they are racists.
Generally, with most people, it is not race, but with some it is just a fact, jack and they don't want no black cat!

I don't know anyone for whom race is the issue.

Hermes Thoth
09-23-2009, 06:14 AM
Another thing to remember is how many people come to the U.S. when they need serious care. The leadership of these beloved socialized states all come to america when it gets serious. True story.

Let's also not forget that innovation is funded almost exclusively on the backs of americans. The innovation engine would stop with price fixing and rationing. More true stories.

Lowaicue
09-23-2009, 06:22 AM
Another thing to remember is how many people come to the U.S. when they need serious care. The leadership of these beloved socialized states all come to america when it gets serious. True story.

Let's also not forget that innovation is funded almost exclusively on the backs of americans. The innovation engine would stop with price fixing and rationing. More true stories.


Can you tell me how many Swedes have come to America specifically for care? How many Finns? Danes? French? Germans? Brits? Swiss?
Any figures for anyone? There must be some info somewhere after all you say it's a true story.

apple0154
09-23-2009, 06:57 AM
According to Low, he has a lot of money. He can find better medical care if need be. In his situation (if we are to take him at his word) his care met his need. There are plenty of stories just as compelling as his from universal care nations that speak of the long wait times, medicine that is refused, care that is withheld~~~ and all of this paid for at exorbitant tax rates to the people receiving this mediocre care. Why shouldn't they be happy with it, it's all they have known. As a final mention Canada has said that their system has caused them to go broke...they, the government, can no longer carry the burden. Translation of course is that their system is broken or broke to be more accurate.

Once, again, Canada's system is not broke. Let's use an analogy.

Let's say you and your spouse are good friends with another couple. You tell your friend you and your spouse are going on a three day cruise. The cost is $1,000.00, all inclusive. You suggest your friend and his wife book the same cruise and you'll all have a great time. Your friend says, "I can't afford that!"

So, you and your spouse go on the cruise. You return and tell your friend you have some great pictures on your video camera and suggest getting together for dinner and viewing the short video. He suggests having dinner at his place and viewing the pictures on the new plasma TV he purchased while you were gone.

So, let's recap. He told you he couldn't afford a $1000 cruise but had the money for a $2000 plasma TV. Would you say he couldn't afford the cruise or he simply chose not to go?

That is how governments operate. They arbitrarily decide on what they're going to spend money and how much and if it's more they say they can't afford it. Of course, there are some things the government can not afford but to suggest a first world country can not afford to look after it's ill citizens is complete and utter rubbish.

As for the younger generation getting stuck with the bill that's another bogus argument. Here's why. Most baby boomers have done quite well for themselves, financially speaking. The economy had many more boom years than bust years during their lifetime. They have a decent nest egg and if illness strikes they have a good reserve plus they can afford an above average insurance plan so they don't want to pay into a universal system. And lastly, they enjoyed a universal system when they didn't have the money and were scraping along raising a family and building equity.

Now along comes the younger generation. After the cost of mortgage payments and raising kids coupled with poor employment opportunities and paying off the crisis brought on by the assorted financial crooks are they going to buy decent medical insurance? Considering they are going to have a tougher time, financially, than their parents there has never been a greater need for universal coverage.

The argument that governments can not afford universal coverage coupled with the argument the younger generation will suffer from such a system is nothing but a shameful, deceptive ploy promoted by nothing but greed.

When it comes to private insurance companies and private medical facilities how many 20-something's raising two kids and paying a mortgage have shares in those businesses?

Finally, the argument that people in countries with universal coverage are satisfied with mediocre care because that's all they have known let's keep in mind every country had a "pay of suffer" system at one time and not one country has reverted to it. Not one single country out of dozens.

There is no argument against universal coverage except greed.

Hermes Thoth
09-23-2009, 07:04 AM
That is how governments operate. They arbitrarily decide on what they're going to spend money and how much and if it's more they say they can't afford it. .

LINK Please!

cancel2 2022
09-23-2009, 07:05 AM
The best health care system in the world is right here in the US, when it comes to efficiency in getting in to see the doctor, technology, privacy and quality of care.

Costs are an issue and something that should be addressed. But pretending universal health care is better is simply nonsense. Look at the WHO report and read where it is that the US gets 'deductions' in its ranking... it is in the subjective areas like 'fairness' of payments etc...

So what experience do you have of other health systems around the world?

Hermes Thoth
09-23-2009, 07:05 AM
Can you tell me how many Swedes have come to America specifically for care? How many Finns? Danes? French? Germans? Brits? Swiss?
Any figures for anyone? There must be some info somewhere after all you say it's a true story.

Are saying none come?

apple0154
09-23-2009, 07:06 AM
I, for one, would love to see it pass just for you, so when the time comes and the government panel of administrators decide your ancient ass is too old for the extraordinary medical procedure to clear your bowel obstruction, there will be irrefutable proof you are and always were full of $hit.

Talking about asses if ones value is to be determined by their ass just think of the future. Just think of the extraordinary measures that will be employed regarding the female sex. Just think of a world full of women with perfect asses.

May I live long enough to experience nirvana.

apple0154
09-23-2009, 07:16 AM
LINK Please!


Link? You're seeking a link to common sense?

Lowaicue
09-23-2009, 07:17 AM
Are saying none come?

You brought it up. You said it was true. Now show us what you have as evidence. I dont know whether one or a million and one went to America, you do it seems.

Or dont you?

Hermes Thoth
09-23-2009, 07:30 AM
You brought it up. You said it was true. Now show us what you have as evidence. I dont know whether one or a million and one went to America, you do it seems.

Or dont you?

Do you? If not, then why bother commenting? A quest for knowledge means more than demanding from strangers to be spoonfed data. Learning is more interactive than that. Your loud mouth has made you lazy.

"Educate my dumb ass...I'm a whiny european polesmoker! I'm too dumb to livee......" , you say.

cancel2 2022
09-23-2009, 07:43 AM
But it is those costs which ration the service and which prevent the poor from receiving adequate care. How will you address the costs? You seem to be refusing to discuss the matter with your president.
I dont suppose that you are hiding behand the cost issue for ... er.... some other ... er ... reason, are you?
You talk of 'most'. Is that acceptable to you?

The issue really boils down to the fact that many get their healthcare via their employer and are happy enough because they don't pay for it. I think the issue could be improved relatively simply by making all of the health insurance companies become non profit making in the same way that BUPA and Nuffield are in the UK. All the profits in these organisations are ploughed back into healthcare and not given to shareholders. I just think it is shameful that Blue Cross and the HMOs are publically quoted companies.

http://www.nuffieldhealth.com/Individuals/About-Us/

Hermes Thoth
09-23-2009, 07:48 AM
Link? You're seeking a link to common sense?

Evidence of the government saying no when they can't afford it. That's really such an ill-informed statement. Making the impossible happen is the corrupt joy of totalitarianism!

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 07:50 AM
If the best healthcare system in the world exists in the US why is no one happy with it? Why does it cost you TEN times what it would cost me? Why do the poor miss out?
You are in grave danger of believing right wing propaganda. Bit like those poor souls living under totalitarian systems.
North Koreans believe the same as you do about their system.

1) It is the best in the terms I described

2) As I stated (and you ignored), the ever increasing costs need to be addressed, but the current proposals DO NOT DO THAT.

3) As far as I am concerned, both parties can take the leap off a cliff. I think they are both worthless.

4) According to the WHO report so many on the left worship... the US is number one in the areas I mentioned.

5) You are foolish if you believe no one is happy with the current system. 85% of respondents state they are happy with their insurance.... That said, the majority do see the need for improvements and need to find a solution for the cost increases.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 07:55 AM
IS race an issue? Why do you single that out for criticism? You are a racist nation and an ex president brought the subject into the limelight.
In the run up to the election race was played hard by people on the right. He was not American. He was black. He was Muslim. He was Kenyan. Dont criticise me for reflecting common American views.

Racism is an issue. No question.

But many on the left use racism any time their arguments do not have sound footing. To paint opponents of the proposed health care reforms as racists is nothing short of idiotic. Only a fool would buy into that crap. The fact that Jimmy Carter also mentioned it, means nothing.

I am criticizing you and justifiably so. Your first point in that post was to bring up race in your 'quest for knowledge'. That type of idiocy is going to be called out.

Lowaicue
09-23-2009, 08:00 AM
Do you? If not, then why bother commenting? A quest for knowledge means more than demanding from strangers to be spoonfed data. Learning is more interactive than that. Your loud mouth has made you lazy.

"Educate my dumb ass...I'm a whiny european polesmoker! I'm too dumb to livee......" , you say.

Yes, of course.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 08:02 AM
But it is those costs which ration the service and which prevent the poor from receiving adequate care. How will you address the costs? You seem to be refusing to discuss the matter with your president.
I dont suppose that you are hiding behand the cost issue for ... er.... some other ... er ... reason, are you?
You talk of 'most'. Is that acceptable to you?

Again with your ignorance???

You once again try to inject your fantasy 'alternate reasons' that people might be upset with the health care reforms being proposed.

You are also an idiot if you think people haven't tried to address the issue of costs with Obama. Even those within his own party have attempted to do just that. As far as this board is concerned, many options have been discussed to address the cost issues. But people like you don't care to actually READ those. You seem to prefer to just subtly call people racists.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 08:04 AM
If you didnt have money you would have had the same service? Then tell me, please, why so many people are refused service in your country?

NO ONE is refused emergency care.

Lowaicue
09-23-2009, 08:10 AM
Racism is an issue. No question.

But many on the left use racism any time their arguments do not have sound footing. To paint opponents of the proposed health care reforms as racists is nothing short of idiotic. Only a fool would buy into that crap. The fact that Jimmy Carter also mentioned it, means nothing.

I am criticizing you and justifiably so. Your first point in that post was to bring up race in your 'quest for knowledge'. That type of idiocy is going to be called out.

Race is one of the issues, with big government and partisanship, that I have learned of through AMERICAN news programmes, NOT via news programmes on any of our local channels (unless they take a feed, naturally). It was therefore relevant to pose the question.
Why are republicans frightened of it? Too close to home? Oh, by the way, I am not 'on the left' as you say. It would not be possible since I cannot vote in your elections because, fortunately, I do not live in the Disunited States of America.
When you say 'called out', what precisely do you mean? Isn't that an American sporting term or something? or is that 'timed out'. Your language is a continuous source of wonder and confusion.

Lowaicue
09-23-2009, 08:11 AM
NO ONE is refused emergency care.


I would hope not. But I dont think anyone specified emergency care.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 08:11 AM
You have got to admit there is a portion of the population that it is JUST race and they are racists.
Generally, with most people, it is not race, but with some it is just a fact, jack and they don't want no black cat!

With the vast majority it is not about race. Yes, there are racists out there, no question. But answer this....

Had Hillary won and these same proposals been offered.... would there still be a protest?

(insert John Edwards if you feel 'sexism' would be the reason for Hillary)

Lowaicue
09-23-2009, 08:12 AM
Again with your ignorance???

You once again try to inject your fantasy 'alternate reasons' that people might be upset with the health care reforms being proposed.

You are also an idiot if you think people haven't tried to address the issue of costs with Obama. Even those within his own party have attempted to do just that. As far as this board is concerned, many options have been discussed to address the cost issues. But people like you don't care to actually READ those. You seem to prefer to just subtly call people racists.

Yes of course. I bow to your superior intelligence.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 08:12 AM
I would hope not. But I dont think anyone specified emergency care.

The poor use the emergency care facilities for their medical needs...

this is one of the reasons emergency care facilities costs are high.

Lowaicue
09-23-2009, 08:20 AM
The poor use the emergency care facilities for their medical needs...

this is one of the reasons emergency care facilities costs are high.

I started this thread in the genuine desire to get to the bottom of a subject that we, in the rest of the world, find almost completely unfathomable. Why, after the most disastrous eight years in your modern history do some people not wish to progress?
Unfortunately many posters put too much store by posting (not so) clever sound bite comments. That's not really surprising. excellence in conversation and debate not being something for which you, as a nation, are known.
There was a brief period in the spring and early summer, when we stopped laughing at you as the buffoons you were. This issue has tended to spread our smiles once again.
You really are a very stupid nation.

Canceled2
09-23-2009, 09:02 AM
You really do like to obfuscate a simple point Apple. More need and less money is not an argument for spending more. The less money is due to nationaized health care, which is never free and never sustainable without a growing population. The problem is that the socialist's who want free (governemnt controlled tax payer supported) everything, are also the group who want population control and other mad scientist controls over human lives. I really think the problem is that you all do too many drugs and your minds are spun.


Link here (http://northshorejournal.org/canada-socialized-medicine-going-broke)

"The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

The system is going broke, says the federation, which campaigns for tax reform and private enterprise in health care.

It calculates that at present rates, Ontario will be spending 85 percent of its budget on health care by 2035. “We can’t afford a state monopoly on health care anymore,” says Tasha Kheiriddin, Ontario director of the federation. “We have to examine private alternatives as well.”

The federal government and virtually every province acknowledge there’s a crisis: a lack of physicians and nurses, state-of-the-art equipment and funding. In Ontario, more than 10,000 nurses and hospital workers are facing layoffs over the next two years unless the provincial government boosts funding, says the Ontario Hospital Association, which represents health care providers in the province."







Once, again, Canada's system is not broke. Let's use an analogy.

Let's say you and your spouse are good friends with another couple. You tell your friend you and your spouse are going on a three day cruise. The cost is $1,000.00, all inclusive. You suggest your friend and his wife book the same cruise and you'll all have a great time. Your friend says, "I can't afford that!"

So, you and your spouse go on the cruise. You return and tell your friend you have some great pictures on your video camera and suggest getting together for dinner and viewing the short video. He suggests having dinner at his place and viewing the pictures on the new plasma TV he purchased while you were gone.

So, let's recap. He told you he couldn't afford a $1000 cruise but had the money for a $2000 plasma TV. Would you say he couldn't afford the cruise or he simply chose not to go?

That is how governments operate. They arbitrarily decide on what they're going to spend money and how much and if it's more they say they can't afford it. Of course, there are some things the government can not afford but to suggest a first world country can not afford to look after it's ill citizens is complete and utter rubbish.

As for the younger generation getting stuck with the bill that's another bogus argument. Here's why. Most baby boomers have done quite well for themselves, financially speaking. The economy had many more boom years than bust years during their lifetime. They have a decent nest egg and if illness strikes they have a good reserve plus they can afford an above average insurance plan so they don't want to pay into a universal system. And lastly, they enjoyed a universal system when they didn't have the money and were scraping along raising a family and building equity.

Now along comes the younger generation. After the cost of mortgage payments and raising kids coupled with poor employment opportunities and paying off the crisis brought on by the assorted financial crooks are they going to buy decent medical insurance? Considering they are going to have a tougher time, financially, than their parents there has never been a greater need for universal coverage.

The argument that governments can not afford universal coverage coupled with the argument the younger generation will suffer from such a system is nothing but a shameful, deceptive ploy promoted by nothing but greed.

When it comes to private insurance companies and private medical facilities how many 20-something's raising two kids and paying a mortgage have shares in those businesses?

Finally, the argument that people in countries with universal coverage are satisfied with mediocre care because that's all they have known let's keep in mind every country had a "pay of suffer" system at one time and not one country has reverted to it. Not one single country out of dozens.

There is no argument against universal coverage except greed.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 09:31 AM
I started this thread in the genuine desire to get to the bottom of a subject that we, in the rest of the world, find almost completely unfathomable. Why, after the most disastrous eight years in your modern history do some people not wish to progress?
Unfortunately many posters put too much store by posting (not so) clever sound bite comments. That's not really surprising. excellence in conversation and debate not being something for which you, as a nation, are known.
There was a brief period in the spring and early summer, when we stopped laughing at you as the buffoons you were. This issue has tended to spread our smiles once again.
You really are a very stupid nation.

1) If your intent was to truly learn, then you need to educate yourself on a better method of doing so. Because your posts appear to be nothing more than an avenue for you to bash the US and pretend that racism is at the forefront of the health care debate.

2) You pretend that those who oppose the idiocy coming from DC are against progress. That is another moronic assumption from you and yet further evidence that you have no desire to learn, but rather want the opportunity to take your childish shots at the US.

3) Ironic that you mock the 'debating' skills of this country when you in turn are horrid at it. All you have produced thus far in your 'quest for knowledge' is the moronic soundbites you heard on TV.

4) Tell us again how wonderful it is for the average Chinese citizen. Because even the poorest among us are far better off than your middle class.

cawacko
09-23-2009, 09:42 AM
1) If your intent was to truly learn, then you need to educate yourself on a better method of doing so. Because your posts appear to be nothing more than an avenue for you to bash the US and pretend that racism is at the forefront of the health care debate.

2) You pretend that those who oppose the idiocy coming from DC are against progress. That is another moronic assumption from you and yet further evidence that you have no desire to learn, but rather want the opportunity to take your childish shots at the US.

3) Ironic that you mock the 'debating' skills of this country when you in turn are horrid at it. All you have produced thus far in your 'quest for knowledge' is the moronic soundbites you heard on TV.

4) Tell us again how wonderful it is for the average Chinese citizen. Because even the poorest among us are far better off than your middle class.

This.

cancel2 2022
09-23-2009, 10:43 AM
1) If your intent was to truly learn, then you need to educate yourself on a better method of doing so. Because your posts appear to be nothing more than an avenue for you to bash the US and pretend that racism is at the forefront of the health care debate.

2) You pretend that those who oppose the idiocy coming from DC are against progress. That is another moronic assumption from you and yet further evidence that you have no desire to learn, but rather want the opportunity to take your childish shots at the US.

3) Ironic that you mock the 'debating' skills of this country when you in turn are horrid at it. All you have produced thus far in your 'quest for knowledge' is the moronic soundbites you heard on TV.

4) Tell us again how wonderful it is for the average Chinese citizen. Because even the poorest among us are far better off than your middle class.

It pretty obvious to me that you have no idea about the high standard of living of people in Hong Kong.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 10:53 AM
It pretty obvious to me that you've never been to Hong Kong where Low lives.

1) I have been to Hong Kong

2) What does Hong Kong have to do with my comments?

3) Its pretty obvious to me you are yet another idiot that fails to comprehend what he reads.

cancel2 2022
09-23-2009, 10:59 AM
The poor use the emergency care facilities for their medical needs...

this is one of the reasons emergency care facilities costs are high.

They use the ER because they have no choice.

cancel2 2022
09-23-2009, 11:06 AM
1) I have been to Hong Kong

2) What does Hong Kong have to do with my comments?

3) Its pretty obvious to me you are yet another idiot that fails to comprehend what he reads.

You are the one that said Chinese people had a low standard of living, so stop being so snotty about it. Anyone who has been to Hong Kong knows they have practically the highest living standards in the world. Also the coastal region of China is awash with Chinese millionaires and billionaires. You may well end working for a Chinese company in the near future so I wouldn't be quite so complacent or arrogant about them.

4) Tell us again how wonderful it is for the average Chinese citizen. Because even the poorest among us are far better off than your middle class.

apple0154
09-23-2009, 11:26 AM
You really do like to obfuscate a simple point Apple. More need and less money is not an argument for spending more. The less money is due to nationaized health care, which is never free and never sustainable without a growing population. The problem is that the socialist's who want free (governemnt controlled tax payer supported) everything, are also the group who want population control and other mad scientist controls over human lives. I really think the problem is that you all do too many drugs and your minds are spun.


Link here (http://northshorejournal.org/canada-socialized-medicine-going-broke)

"The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

The system is going broke, says the federation, which campaigns for tax reform and private enterprise in health care.

It calculates that at present rates, Ontario will be spending 85 percent of its budget on health care by 2035. “We can’t afford a state monopoly on health care anymore,” says Tasha Kheiriddin, Ontario director of the federation. “We have to examine private alternatives as well.”

The federal government and virtually every province acknowledge there’s a crisis: a lack of physicians and nurses, state-of-the-art equipment and funding. In Ontario, more than 10,000 nurses and hospital workers are facing layoffs over the next two years unless the provincial government boosts funding, says the Ontario Hospital Association, which represents health care providers in the province."

So, as the old saying goes, "Let's cut to the chase." Do we or do we not offer medical care to those who can not afford it?

I checked out the link. The news always tells us about the person with the money who had to travel to a foreign country or had to get on a waiting list. Where are the people who received treatment who otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford it? Where are the testimonies from people who are thankful all they had to do was wait three months for treatment because they sure as hell wouldn't have been able to save the $5,000 or $10,000 in that amount of time to pay a private clinic.

Canada has had a medical plan since the late 60s. That's 40 years. 40 years of people getting medical care when needed. Now there is a funding problem and people jump up and say, "Dump it!"

Of course, people have been ranting about costs for decades and during all those decades people were getting the necessary medical care.

Government medical. Private medical. A combination of both. I really don't care. The point is there is no reason/excuse for a first world country not to look after it's ill and infirm. That's what it all boils down to.

In countries like Canada people are motivated to find a solution because a solution has to be found. The program is already in existence. The government is obliged to make whatever changes are necessary to keep the program running or they'll find themselves out of a job.

Is there a solution. Of course there is. How do I know? I know because there is no reason a first world country can not look after it's ill and infirm.

Subsidized tuition for doctors and nurses in exchange for them working a certain amount of time, after graduation, for the government? Similar to what the military offers. Serve your country and get money for an education.

There has to be a solution. The ill and infirm have to be looked after. It's simply silly to say a first world country can not do that.

We come back to the same argument. Dozens of countries have been doing it for decades. They bitch and complain but they're still doing it. If they could do it for 20 or 30 or 40 years what has changed?

If it requires adjustment, make adjustments. If people don't want a government plan set up a system like unemployment or welfare. It's not rocket science to determine if a person can afford a certain medical treatment. Those who can't....the government pays. That way the government is not involved in any medical decisions. They simply check the person's income filing, number of members in the family, etc and write a check.

Being able to afford a medical procedure is no different than being able to afford a new car. Either you can or you can't. If you can't, the government covers you. Simple, efficient......but that would never pass and we all know why, don't we?

So, what are we left with? We're left with a universal plan.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 11:31 AM
They use the ER because they have no choice.

NO SHIT... really? Thanks captain obvious.

The point was... they GET care when they need it.

The fact they use the ER is one of the things we need to address. It is one of the cost issues I mentioned.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 11:34 AM
You are the one that said Chinese people had a low standard of living, so stop being so snotty about it. Anyone who has been to Hong Kong knows they have practically the highest living standards in the world. Also the coastal region of China is awash with Chinese millionaires and billionaires. You may well end working for a Chinese company in the near future so I wouldn't be quite so complacent or arrogant about them.

4) Tell us again how wonderful it is for the average Chinese citizen. Because even the poorest among us are far better off than your middle class.

You do realize that the Chinese people do not all live in Hong Kong? As I stated, the AVERAGE Chinese citizen... not the average Chinese citizen living in Hong Kong. As I stated, your reading comprehension skills suck.

Second, there is a reason Hong Kong's standards are higher than the rest of China... do you want to take a guess as to why? Or does it need to be spelled out for you?

Third, I am well aware that there are millionaires and billionaires in China. Again, I stated the AVERAGE CHINESE CITIZEN.

Perhaps the all caps will highlight that fact enough so that you may comprehend it this time.

Lastly... no I will not be working for a Chinese company.

cancel2 2022
09-23-2009, 11:57 AM
You do realize that the Chinese people do not all live in Hong Kong? As I stated, the AVERAGE Chinese citizen... not the average Chinese citizen living in Hong Kong. As I stated, your reading comprehension skills suck.

Second, there is a reason Hong Kong's standards are higher than the rest of China... do you want to take a guess as to why? Or does it need to be spelled out for you?

Third, I am well aware that there are millionaires and billionaires in China. Again, I stated the AVERAGE CHINESE CITIZEN.

Perhaps the all caps will highlight that fact enough so that you may comprehend it this time.

Lastly... no I will not be working for a Chinese company.

Man, you are an arrogant son of a bitch and that's for sure.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 12:03 PM
Man, you are an arrogant son of a bitch and that's for sure.

Arrogant? For pointing out that you cannot comprehend what you read?

You attempted to talk about something that you clearly didn't understand, I point that out and I am 'arrogant' for doing so?

:rolleyes:

cancel2 2022
09-23-2009, 12:23 PM
Arrogant? For pointing out that you cannot comprehend what you read?

You attempted to talk about something that you clearly didn't understand, I point that out and I am 'arrogant' for doing so?

:rolleyes:

Talk about what exactly, you were talking to Low who lives in Hong Kong and I naturally pointed out that the standard of living there is very high. If you were talking about Guizhou, Shaanxi or Gansu provinces in Mainland China then tell me something that I don't know. You seem to have a bug up your arse and I can't be bothered to dislodge it so 再见

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 12:33 PM
Talk about what exactly, you were talking to Low who lives in Hong Kong and I naturally pointed out that the standard of living there is very high. If you were talking about Guizhou, Shaanxi or Gansu provinces in Mainland China then tell me something that I don't know. You seem to have a bug up your arse and I can't be bothered to dislodge it so 再见

I was talking to LOW about the average standard of living in China compared to those who are considered the worst off in the US.

You then interjected your idiocy with the 'you obviously haven't been to Hong Kong' comment.

HONG KONG had NOTHING to due with my comments. A point you still fail to comprehend.

I also note that you didn't answer the point I made to you about Hong Kong's standard of living relative to the rest of China. Which further highlights the stupidity of your comment regarding the high standard of living in Hong Kong.

If you don't want someone to call you out for being a moron, then don't jump in the middle of a conversation with comments that have nothing to do with what is being discussed. You thought you were making a point... unfortunately for you it was not the point you thought that came through loud and clear.

cancel2 2022
09-23-2009, 12:59 PM
I was talking to LOW about the average standard of living in China compared to those who are considered the worst off in the US.

You then interjected your idiocy with the 'you obviously haven't been to Hong Kong' comment.

HONG KONG had NOTHING to due with my comments. A point you still fail to comprehend.

I also note that you didn't answer the point I made to you about Hong Kong's standard of living relative to the rest of China. Which further highlights the stupidity of your comment regarding the high standard of living in Hong Kong.

If you don't want someone to call you out for being a moron, then don't jump in the middle of a conversation with comments that have nothing to do with what is being discussed. You thought you were making a point... unfortunately for you it was not the point you thought that came through loud and clear.

Have you ever been called irascible before? In this "conversation" with Low, you were being incredibly arrogant about the dirt poor Chinese compared to rich Americans. In the coastal regions of China and Hong Kong there is a population of 300+ middle class Chinese who are well on their way to overtaking the US in average income.

I have to get up early to configure some Huawei routers, they are Chinese by the way and Huawei is well on its way to becoming a major presence in the datacomms world maybe even ousting Cisco in the future.

Canceled1
09-23-2009, 01:01 PM
Have you ever been called irascible before?

Do you think you could finally say 再见 and really mean it for friggin' once?

Canceled1
09-23-2009, 01:07 PM
I was talking to LOW about the average standard of living in China compared to those who are considered the worst off in the US.

You then interjected your idiocy with the 'you obviously haven't been to Hong Kong' comment.

HONG KONG had NOTHING to due with my comments. A point you still fail to comprehend.

I also note that you didn't answer the point I made to you about Hong Kong's standard of living relative to the rest of China. Which further highlights the stupidity of your comment regarding the high standard of living in Hong Kong.

If you don't want someone to call you out for being a moron, then don't jump in the middle of a conversation with comments that have nothing to do with what is being discussed. You thought you were making a point... unfortunately for you it was not the point you thought that came through loud and clear.

you were talking to Low who lives in Hong Kong and I naturally pointed out (Please note his use of the term "naturally")

Translation: I butt in to a conversation once again that didn't involve me.

TuTu Monroe
09-23-2009, 01:15 PM
Do you think you could finally say 再见 and really mean it for friggin' once?

You are irascible? What a friggen joke. I think Tom just does this, because he still has the hots for you.

Canceled1
09-23-2009, 01:16 PM
Have you ever been called irascible before? In this "conversation" with Low, you were being incredibly arrogant about the dirt poor Chinese compared to rich Americans. In the coastal regions of China and Hong Kong there is a population of 300+ middle class Chinese who are well on their way to overtaking the US in average income.

I have to get up early to configure some Huawei routers, they are Chinese by the way and Huawei is well on its way to becoming a major presence in the datacomms world maybe even ousting Cisco in the future.


:gives:

Canceled1
09-23-2009, 01:18 PM
You are irascible? What a friggen joke. I think Tom just does this, because he still has the hots for you.

Nope. Today Tom has the hots for Superfreak.

He's been riding him hard in hopes of putting him away wet.

SF is doing a commendable job of holding the elitist Brit at a decent distance.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 01:30 PM
Have you ever been called irascible before? In this "conversation" with Low, you were being incredibly arrogant about the dirt poor Chinese compared to rich Americans. In the coastal regions of China and Hong Kong there is a population of 300+ middle class Chinese who are well on their way to overtaking the US in average income.

I have to get up early to configure some Huawei routers, they are Chinese by the way and Huawei is well on its way to becoming a major presence in the datacomms world maybe even ousting Cisco in the future.

Again, you need to learn to READ and COMPREHEND.

You looked at ONE post in the discussion and decided (in YOUR arrogance) to pretend you knew what we were talking about. Then in YOUR idiocy, you tried to make a point that had nothing to do with our conversation. Now in YOUR continued stupidity, you try to spin your way out of the prior two.

Low was knocking the US and talking about how bad our country was, that we were known for our racism and stupidity (obviously you are an example of why he thinks the latter), about how our poor people were so deprived of health insurance. THEN I asked him how the poor in his country compared and pointed out that our 'poor' are better off than China's middle class.

Then along comes a wandering moron who decides to pretend he is Low's savior by commenting on the quality of life in Hong Kong. Which again had nothing to do with what we are discussing.

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 01:34 PM
Again, you need to learn to READ and COMPREHEND.

You looked at ONE post in the discussion and decided (in YOUR arrogance) to pretend you knew what we were talking about. Then in YOUR idiocy, you tried to make a point that had nothing to do with our conversation. Now in YOUR continued stupidity, you try to spin your way out of the prior two.

Low was knocking the US and talking about how bad our country was, that we were known for our racism and stupidity (obviously you are an example of why he thinks the latter), about how our poor people were so deprived of health insurance. THEN I asked him how the poor in his country compared and pointed out that our 'poor' are better off than China's middle class.

Then along comes a wandering moron who decides to pretend he is Low's savior by commenting on the quality of life in Hong Kong. Which again had nothing to do with what we are discussing.
somebody not get their Wheaties this morning?

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 01:38 PM
but medical care is an added cost to your budget. And so a public option would necessarily be an additional cost to ours. i don't believe it would be no extra cost. That's just stupid. are you stupid?
Again, this is what several of you claim when people ask questions and have a different opinion, that people are stupid.

Are you stupid in that you have to ask if they are stupid? Superior intelligence doesn't have to point out the stupidity of others, it just knows and accepts that they are dealing with their inferiors, like our dealing with you, we just know and love you for who you are and what you wish to become when you grow up!

TuTu Monroe
09-23-2009, 01:39 PM
Click here (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/09/socialized_medicine_is_broken.html)


So, as the old saying goes, "Let's cut to the chase." Do we or do we not offer medical care to those who can not afford it?

I checked out the link. The news always tells us about the person with the money who had to travel to a foreign country or had to get on a waiting list. Where are the people who received treatment who otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford it? Where are the testimonies from people who are thankful all they had to do was wait three months for treatment because they sure as hell wouldn't have been able to save the $5,000 or $10,000 in that amount of time to pay a private clinic.

Canada has had a medical plan since the late 60s. That's 40 years. 40 years of people getting medical care when needed. Now there is a funding problem and people jump up and say, "Dump it!"

Of course, people have been ranting about costs for decades and during all those decades people were getting the necessary medical care.

Government medical. Private medical. A combination of both. I really don't care. The point is there is no reason/excuse for a first world country not to look after it's ill and infirm. That's what it all boils down to.

In countries like Canada people are motivated to find a solution because a solution has to be found. The program is already in existence. The government is obliged to make whatever changes are necessary to keep the program running or they'll find themselves out of a job.

Is there a solution. Of course there is. How do I know? I know because there is no reason a first world country can not look after it's ill and infirm.

Subsidized tuition for doctors and nurses in exchange for them working a certain amount of time, after graduation, for the government? Similar to what the military offers. Serve your country and get money for an education.

There has to be a solution. The ill and infirm have to be looked after. It's simply silly to say a first world country can not do that.

We come back to the same argument. Dozens of countries have been doing it for decades. They bitch and complain but they're still doing it. If they could do it for 20 or 30 or 40 years what has changed?

If it requires adjustment, make adjustments. If people don't want a government plan set up a system like unemployment or welfare. It's not rocket science to determine if a person can afford a certain medical treatment. Those who can't....the government pays. That way the government is not involved in any medical decisions. They simply check the person's income filing, number of members in the family, etc and write a check.

Being able to afford a medical procedure is no different than being able to afford a new car. Either you can or you can't. If you can't, the government covers you. Simple, efficient......but that would never pass and we all know why, don't we?

So, what are we left with? We're left with a universal plan.

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 01:39 PM
See now I know you are coming from a partisan position not one of 'wanting to learn'. Race played an issue in the Democratic Primary between Obama and Hillary. You know between Democrats, the compassionate non racist folks. It is not just a 'right-wing' issue.

Partisan politics did not start in the U.S. with Barack Obama. And to think the President was going reengineer 1/6th of the U.S. economy and not have people get passionate about it?
Cawacko, how can he be partisan?

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 01:41 PM
I don't know anyone for whom race is the issue.
It is because you have no friends...I have several, who don't like Obama because he is black.
You try to influence some people with the way you live, but you just can't. It is truly sad.

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 01:43 PM
With the vast majority it is not about race. Yes, there are racists out there, no question. But answer this....

Had Hillary won and these same proposals been offered.... would there still be a protest?

(insert John Edwards if you feel 'sexism' would be the reason for Hillary)
Hillary it would be that she is a woman and doesn't know what she is doing and John Edwards, he is rich, it is always something, some prejudice, isn't it.

In all seriousness, it isn't race in every case, it is just with some people and to deny that it isn't isn't being real.

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 01:44 PM
why bother with these morons? They are clueless.
First clue of who is really clueless...what kind of a name is tinfoil, is your head gear made of the substance?

Damocles
09-23-2009, 01:45 PM
Again, you need to learn to READ and COMPREHEND.

You looked at ONE post in the discussion and decided (in YOUR arrogance) to pretend you knew what we were talking about. Then in YOUR idiocy, you tried to make a point that had nothing to do with our conversation. Now in YOUR continued stupidity, you try to spin your way out of the prior two.

Low was knocking the US and talking about how bad our country was, that we were known for our racism and stupidity (obviously you are an example of why he thinks the latter), about how our poor people were so deprived of health insurance. THEN I asked him how the poor in his country compared and pointed out that our 'poor' are better off than China's middle class.

Then along comes a wandering moron who decides to pretend he is Low's savior by commenting on the quality of life in Hong Kong. Which again had nothing to do with what we are discussing.
Just an FYI - Low is an expat Brit (I think) living in Hong Kong, and Tom is a Britlander living in actual Britlandia or whatever they call it nowadays.

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 01:45 PM
are you serious....you talk like DNC....

you're telling me that obama doesn't want to end the high cost of h/c? this bill is nothing if there is not price controls. wtf do you think this bill is doing?
Prices are off the cart, what do you propose to control them? How many insurance companies in the USA? How many pharma companies? Who controls prices now? Don't you want it to benefit you instead of be a negative?

Do you like corporations making money off the sick, elderly and dying?

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 01:47 PM
this thread is about the h/c plan....

as to the global warming nonsense, tinfoil is right on the science etc....its a scam
Says the expert, Yurt. He has how many degrees in this area? It makes me chuckle, that you can proclaim it a scam with such assurance.

Well, in a few years, you can visit my tropical location in Alaska!

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 02:40 PM
somebody not get their Wheaties this morning?

Never Wheaties.... always oatmeal...

The poor chap needed help... so I provided him with the details of his screw up...

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 02:41 PM
Hillary it would be that she is a woman and doesn't know what she is doing and John Edwards, he is rich, it is always something, some prejudice, isn't it.

In all seriousness, it isn't race in every case, it is just with some people and to deny that it isn't isn't being real.

Bottom line is that the bulk of the opposition would have been due to the POLICY.... not due to the race, gender or wealth of the individual in the whitehouse

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 02:42 PM
Just an FYI - Low is an expat Brit (I think) living in Hong Kong, and Tom is a Britlander living in actual Britlandia or whatever they call it nowadays.

well LOWIQ is an appropriate name for both of them...

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 02:43 PM
well LOWIQ is an appropriate name for both of them...
You disappoint me at times, it is the mother in me.

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 02:45 PM
You are irascible? What a friggen joke. I think Tom just does this, because he still has the hots for you.
And then you woke up out of your dream state.

I think I just threw up in my mouth, I'll be right back...

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 02:48 PM
Prices are off the cart, what do you propose to control them? How many insurance companies in the USA? How many pharma companies? Who controls prices now? Don't you want it to benefit you instead of be a negative?

Do you like corporations making money off the sick, elderly and dying?

The chain.... not a be all end all, but a good start...

1) tort reform... put a cap on the punitive damages
2) end defensive medicine
3) reduced malpractice premiums due to tort reform
4) reduced hospital bills due to elimination of uneccesary tests used for CYA procedures
5) reduced individual premiums due to lower hospital bills

Second chain....

1) Eat better
2) Exercise more
3) Reducing obesity levels within US
4) Reduce individual premiums due to healthier population

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 02:49 PM
You disappoint me at times, it is the mother in me.

If you had read the thread and their blatant inability to comprehend what was written to them, then you would understand. Personally, I will continue to call out the idiots when they are behaving like idiots.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 02:50 PM
And then you woke up out of your dream state.

I think I just threw up in my mouth, I'll be right back...

you disappoint me sometimes...

Hermes Thoth
09-23-2009, 02:56 PM
The chain.... not a be all end all, but a good start...

1) tort reform... put a cap on the punitive damages
2) end defensive medicine
3) reduced malpractice premiums due to tort reform
4) reduced hospital bills due to elimination of uneccesary tests used for CYA procedures
5) reduced individual premiums due to lower hospital bills

Second chain....

1) Eat better
2) Exercise more
3) Reducing obesity levels within US
4) Reduce individual premiums due to healthier population

Busting up state cartels and employer involvement is more important than eliminating "CYA" procedures.

Hermes Thoth
09-23-2009, 02:58 PM
It is because you have no friends...I have several, who don't like Obama because he is black.
You try to influence some people with the way you live, but you just can't. It is truly sad.

You should stop hanging out at KKK rallies.

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 03:13 PM
You should stop hanging out at KKK rallies.
Why? You meet all kinds of interesting and insane folks

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 03:13 PM
Why? You meet all kinds of interesting and insane folks
Going to Zombieland? I think it looks good. I love Harelson.

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 03:14 PM
Bottom line is that the bulk of the opposition would have been due to the POLICY.... not due to the race, gender or wealth of the individual in the whitehouse
So is this where you say you own me?

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 03:15 PM
Busting up state cartels and employer involvement is more important than eliminating "CYA" procedures.

Those are two more options that I would certainly support.

Cancel 2016.2
09-23-2009, 03:16 PM
So is this where you say you own me?

No. This is where I say nana nana na na

:bleh:

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 03:17 PM
No. This is where I say nana nana na na

:bleh:
That's even better! I like the tongue action

Canceled1
09-23-2009, 03:26 PM
And then you woke up out of your dream state.

I think I just threw up in my mouth, I'll be right back...


Well that would explain your breath...

Now for your brain.

Canceled1
09-23-2009, 03:29 PM
That's even better! I like the tongue action

This statement would not induce vomiting, but it would however induce suicide.

Cancel5
09-23-2009, 03:34 PM
you disappoint me sometimes...
It is to be expected...

christiefan915
09-23-2009, 04:13 PM
Can you tell me how many Swedes have come to America specifically for care? How many Finns? Danes? French? Germans? Brits? Swiss?
Any figures for anyone? There must be some info somewhere after all you say it's a true story.

Back in the '80's millionaires from the Middle East came here for organ transplants and there was an investigation because they were bumping others from the lists, due to the fact that they could pay hundreds of thousands without having to go through insurance paperwork. AHZ makes it sound like any old schmo just hopped a plane and got immediate care, when in truth is was basically the uber-rich who could do this.

Hermes Thoth
09-23-2009, 04:14 PM
Back in the '80's millionaires from the Middle East came here for organ transplants and there was an investigation because they were bumping others from the lists, due to the fact that they could pay hundreds of thousands without having to go through insurance paperwork. AHZ makes it sound like any old schmo just hopped a plane and got immediate care, when in truth is was basically the uber-rich who could do this.

But they came here. FOr the best. Get it?

christiefan915
09-23-2009, 04:25 PM
Click here (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/09/socialized_medicine_is_broken.html)

I'm thinking that John Stossel, born, raised and living in the U.S., has insufficient authority to pronounce on other countries' health care systems. The fact that he joined Faux News further diminishes his credentials.

christiefan915
09-23-2009, 04:27 PM
But they came here. FOr the best. Get it?

The best at the time, yes.

Hermes Thoth
09-23-2009, 04:28 PM
The best at the time, yes.

Yes, the best AT THE TIME. ( ewwwwkay. :rolleyes:)

apple0154
09-23-2009, 05:38 PM
Click here (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/09/socialized_medicine_is_broken.html)

I read the article. Here's an excerpt.
"It's driven some Canadians to private for-profit clinics. A new one opens somewhere in Canada almost every week. Although it's not clear that such private clinics are legal, one is run by the president of the Canadian Medical Association, Dr. Brian Day, because under government care, he says, "We found ourselves in a situation where we were seeing sick patients and weren't being allowed to treat them. That was something that we couldn't tolerate."

That guy should be writing for SNL. He wasn't allowed to treat them? What he was saying in a twisted way is the government wouldn't pay him. There was nothing stopping him from treating the patients he mentions. The only thing he couldn't tolerate is not getting extra work.

The government limits the number of patients a doctor can treat. Why? Because of the insatiable greed in the medical profession. Imagine having a job where, in order to get paid, you filed out a form with a person's name on it such as what happens with general practitioners or GPs or family doctors. Every aching muscle, every headache, every upset stomach, every "blah" feeling.....the point being there is a limit to how many patients a doctor can competently diagnose in a day, every day.

When a doctor writes he opened his own clinic because he couldn't treat patients and he couldn't tolerate that......well, let's just say Mother Theresa is no longer with us. Nuff said.

Hermes Thoth
09-23-2009, 05:49 PM
I read the article. Here's an excerpt.
"It's driven some Canadians to private for-profit clinics. A new one opens somewhere in Canada almost every week. Although it's not clear that such private clinics are legal, one is run by the president of the Canadian Medical Association, Dr. Brian Day, because under government care, he says, "We found ourselves in a situation where we were seeing sick patients and weren't being allowed to treat them. That was something that we couldn't tolerate."

That guy should be writing for SNL. He wasn't allowed to treat them? What he was saying in a twisted way is the government wouldn't pay him. There was nothing stopping him from treating the patients he mentions. The only thing he couldn't tolerate is not getting extra work.

The government limits the number of patients a doctor can treat. Why? Because of the insatiable greed in the medical profession. Imagine having a job where, in order to get paid, you filed out a form with a person's name on it such as what happens with general practitioners or GPs or family doctors. Every aching muscle, every headache, every upset stomach, every "blah" feeling.....the point being there is a limit to how many patients a doctor can competently diagnose in a day, every day.

When a doctor writes he opened his own clinic because he couldn't treat patients and he couldn't tolerate that......well, let's just say Mother Theresa is no longer with us. Nuff said.

Why would the government restrict the flow of goods and services? ESPECIALLY with healthcare. To kill people?

Hermes Thoth
09-23-2009, 05:51 PM
Je T'accuse de le Panel du death.

Lowaicue
09-23-2009, 07:21 PM
You disappoint me at times, it is the mother in me.

Do not fret, dear lady. LOWIQ was the original intention all those years ago.
Now who was it who said, 'He is a modest man with plenty to be modest about.'

apple0154
09-23-2009, 07:22 PM
Why would the government restrict the flow of goods and services? ESPECIALLY with healthcare. To kill people?

Not at all. Let's delve a bit deeper. Here is a true story. Names changed to protect the 'not so decent'.

"Mr. Smith" lives in a small town 30 miles from a large city. He is entitled to medical services the same way as any other resident of Canada. He contracts cancer and requires chemo treatments.

There is a small hospital in his town but it doesn't have the necessary chemo equipment so he has to go to the hospital in the city. He is pissed he has to pay for his gas to drive to town so he writes to the government, his local paper, contacts a TV reporter and the next thing you know the headlines on the 6 o'clock news is MAN DENIED MEDICAL TREATMENT.

The system in Canada is composed of private doctors. If a doctor does not want to work in a certain town then there is no doctor. Also, a private clinic would not set up a cancer center in Mr. Smith's town because not enough people in that town have cancer. Of course, none of that matters to a person like Mr. Smith, a person of either limited intelligence or unlimited greed. He pays taxes for universal medicare and, by God, he's not going to pay the gas to get it! Thankfully, the government politely told him to take a hike. I never saw a follow-up to the story but I assume Mr. Smith started to pay for his own gas. :)

Once, again, I ask, "How many times have you seen reports of citizens in foreign countries demonstrating for a return to a "pay or suffer" system?" Reporters will seek out the extraordinary case or, as with Mr. Smith, the absurd situation. Anything to attempt to discredit the government. As you can see Canada also has their wing nuts.

Lowaicue
09-23-2009, 07:33 PM
The chain.... not a be all end all, but a good start...

1) tort reform... put a cap on the punitive damages
2) end defensive medicine
3) reduced malpractice premiums due to tort reform
4) reduced hospital bills due to elimination of uneccesary tests used for CYA procedures
5) reduced individual premiums due to lower hospital bills

Second chain....

1) Eat better
2) Exercise more
3) Reducing obesity levels within US
4) Reduce individual premiums due to healthier population

Well, at long last. An actual opinion.
And, this may surprise you, I would not knock it. Certainly this whole legal thing that has now smeared its way into the UK and is probably destined for here (Lawyers are now permitted to advertise providing they obey certain rules. We still do not allow ambulance chasers.)
The second chain is common sense but, in fact, it is not that common. I met my personal monster earlier this year. I have not smoked since ... at all. I have cut extra sugar consumption from 70 - 80 gms per day to about 8. I eat more salads than all the rabbits on the South Downs and I walk at least 3 miles at least 4 times per week. Beer is reduced, red wine stays the same. BMI at about 24. And this is the nicest. People actually tell me, with no prompting, that I am looking great.
Oh, and just because I have been fairly positive about this doesnt mean I'm going to let you off the hook.

Lowaicue
09-23-2009, 07:34 PM
If you had read the thread and their blatant inability to comprehend what was written to them, then you would understand. Personally, I will continue to call out the idiots when they are behaving like idiots.

You are not really in a position to judge.

Lowaicue
09-23-2009, 07:37 PM
Back in the '80's millionaires from the Middle East came here for organ transplants and there was an investigation because they were bumping others from the lists, due to the fact that they could pay hundreds of thousands without having to go through insurance paperwork. AHZ makes it sound like any old schmo just hopped a plane and got immediate care, when in truth is was basically the uber-rich who could do this.

Yes, of course. The same people kept Harley Street going.... and the Soho strip joints!!!!!

Canceled2
09-24-2009, 12:47 AM
This statement would not induce vomiting, but it would however induce suicide.

:eek:

cancel2 2022
09-24-2009, 04:21 AM
You are not really in a position to judge.

He is one grouchy son of a bitch reminds me of Scholi back on the WOT board

cancel2 2022
09-24-2009, 04:29 AM
If you had read the thread and their blatant inability to comprehend what was written to them, then you would understand. Personally, I will continue to call out the idiots when they are behaving like idiots.

Twat!!

Hermes Thoth
09-24-2009, 04:54 AM
Well, at long last. An actual opinion..

You've been getting substantive opinion the entire time, you're just too moronic to recognize it. Seek help for your cognitive inabilities.

cancel2 2022
09-24-2009, 05:03 AM
You've been getting substantive opinion the entire time, you're just too moronic to recognize it. Seek help for your cognitive inabilities.

You have over 17,000 posts to your name, less than 2000 rep points and no friends, so what does that say about you?

Hermes Thoth
09-24-2009, 05:08 AM
You have over 17,000 posts to your name, less than 2000 rep points and no friends, so what does that say about you?

Are you saying something? I thought the dog farted.

Hermes Thoth
09-24-2009, 05:14 AM
So.

In summary,

The concensus american opinion is

1. Rejection of ANY path that leads to state run healthcare
2. Tort reform
3. Breakup of state by state healthcare cartels
4. Remove employer companies from the mix completely

cancel2 2022
09-24-2009, 05:22 AM
Are you saying something? I thought the dog farted.

My God, I bet you've never used that one before!!

cancel2 2022
09-24-2009, 05:24 AM
So.

In summary,

The concensus american opinion is

1. Rejection of ANY path that leads to state run healthcare
2. Tort reform
3. Breakup of state by state healthcare cartels
4. Remove employer companies from the mix completely

You should add that all the HMOs, Blue Cross etc be turned into non profit organisations with no shareholders.

Hermes Thoth
09-24-2009, 05:25 AM
My God, I bet you've never used that one before!!

I don't gamble.

Hermes Thoth
09-24-2009, 05:27 AM
You should add that all the HMOs, Blue Cross etc should be turned into non profit organisations with no shareholders.

I don't believe that. They should be submitted to nationwide competition instead of the psuedocompetition of a state cartel. And the employer company should have NO ROLE in purchasing health care.

cancel2 2022
09-24-2009, 05:35 AM
I don't believe that. They should be submitted to nationwide competition instead of the psuedocompetition of a state cartel. And the employer company should have NO ROLE in purchasing health care.

All that will happen is that the big fish will swallow up the little fish and you will just end up with 2 or 3 giant companies running a cozy cartel.

Hermes Thoth
09-24-2009, 05:36 AM
All that will happen is that the big fish will swallow up the little fish and you will just end up with 2 or 3 giant companies running a cozy cartel.

We will just have to keep busting it up. Not a big deal. It's better than the full monopoly of a government run system.

Lowaicue
09-24-2009, 06:56 AM
We will just have to keep busting it up. Not a big deal. It's better than the full monopoly of a government run system.

That probably is not practical. Do you really know who owns what in the US? Do you know, for example, whether Walmart owns any of its suppliers and if so how the profit on a product is divided? Do you know how you would discover true ownership, influential shareholdings, etc? I doubt very much if you or anyone does. Teams of lawyers are employed to hide inter company relationships. The world of business, you see, is not as simple as we like to think it is.
Insurance company A is 35% owned by ins company B which consists of banking and financial interests of several otherwise disconnected institutions. Some parts of such interests might be in private hands in in the form of trusts or companies where the beneficiary is not listed as a shareholder.
You ain't gonna bust nothing unless you can get sufficient numbers of similarly interested people and similarly interested lawyers and that just will not happen.
And, don't kid yourself on this, a monopoly is a real threat. Its easier to change your government than break up a business that doesn't wish to be broken up.

Hermes Thoth
09-24-2009, 07:00 AM
That probably is not practical. Do you really know who owns what in the US? Do you know, for example, whether Walmart owns any of its suppliers and if so how the profit on a product is divided? Do you know how you would discover true ownership, influential shareholdings, etc? I doubt very much if you or anyone does. Teams of lawyers are employed to hide inter company relationships. The world of business, you see, is not as simple as we like to think it is.
Insurance company A is 35% owned by ins company B which consists of banking and financial interests of several otherwise disconnected institutions. Some parts of such interests might be in private hands in in the form of trusts or companies where the beneficiary is not listed as a shareholder.
You ain't gonna bust nothing unless you can get sufficient numbers of similarly interested people and similarly interested lawyers and that just will not happen.
And, don't kid yourself on this, a monopoly is a real threat. Its easier to change your government than break up a business that doesn't wish to be broken up.

It's totally practical. You know, a negative attitude is not "rationality" per se. The hard things are worth it.

Lowaicue
09-24-2009, 07:05 AM
It's totally practical. You know, a negative attitude is not "rationality" per se. The hard things are worth it.

Then you go ahead and believe it. I can't stop you nor would I want to.

Hermes Thoth
09-24-2009, 07:06 AM
Then you go ahead and believe it. I can't stop you nor would I want to.

I don't need your permission.

Lowaicue
09-24-2009, 07:12 AM
I don't need your permission.

No. You need educating and that is not on offer from me. Goodnight.

Hermes Thoth
09-24-2009, 07:23 AM
No. You need educating and that is not on offer from me. Goodnight.

Oh, you mean totalitarian indoctrination, no thanks.

Damocles
09-24-2009, 07:33 AM
You should add that all the HMOs, Blue Cross etc be turned into non profit organisations with no shareholders.
Blue Cross is a non-profit. So is Kaiser and other HMOs...

Lowaicue
09-24-2009, 07:37 AM
Oh, you mean totalitarian indoctrination, no thanks.

No

cancel2 2022
09-24-2009, 07:45 AM
Blue Cross is a non-profit. So is Kaiser and other HMOs...

OK, fair enough I stand corrected however I believe that Humana, CIGNA, Aetna and Healthnet are publically quoted companies.

Hermes Thoth
09-24-2009, 08:47 AM
No

Yes, It is what you mean. You want me to think that oligarchical collectivism is cool.

Lowaicue
09-24-2009, 08:58 AM
Yes, It is what you mean. You want me to think that oligarchical collectivism is cool.

No

Hermes Thoth
09-24-2009, 09:13 AM
No

Yes. yes you do. It's what you believe. Globalist Illuminati stupidity. That's you.

Lowaicue
09-24-2009, 09:16 AM
Yes. yes you do. It's what you believe. Globalist Illuminati stupidity. That's you.

It really is quite staggering just how far you are from reality

Hermes Thoth
09-24-2009, 09:18 AM
It really is quite staggering just how far you are from reality

Do you have any stairs in your flat? Go stagger around in that area.

TuTu Monroe
09-24-2009, 03:02 PM
Blue Cross is a non-profit. So is Kaiser and other HMOs...

I have BC PPO and I love it.