Climate bill to cost families over $1700 a year

[tinfoil]

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/15/taking_liberties/entry5314040.shtml

[tinfoil]

yeah, ignore the COST of your carbon fantasy

Idiotic

[uscitizen]

I am against cap and trade. I am for limiting carbon emissions.
And no way we move forward with energy will be cheap.
Of course it seems that if we stay on the same coal and oil track it will cost lots more as well.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

LIES

[PostmodernProphet]

LIES

since the article states that the info comes from the Obama administration, I wonder if you would like to elaborate on which and how many lies we have gotten from them.......

[Topspin]

you think healthcare got a fight. Tell people this bill based on liberal fantasy will make gas at least $5 gallon and you'll see a real fight.

[Damocles]

LIES
Racist.

[uscitizen]

Racist.

Not an appropriate response for APP. Edit thyself.

[Damocles]

Not an appropriate response for APP. Edit thyself.
Racist.

[uscitizen]

Racist.

LOL. Yeah a bit. I admit to it but keep working on it.

After all where I grew up I did not see a live black person till I was 16 or so.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I am against cap and trade. I am for limiting carbon emissions.

Alright, so you call your cap and trade by a different name. Big deal.

[uscitizen]

Alright, so you call your cap and trade by a different name. Big deal.

No trade just cap.
A lot different thing.

[tinfoil]

does anyone here ever debate the costs of carbon plans? You guys laughed a few years ago when i said the climate crap was about taxes. Now here's the bill. Are you guys happy hurting working families that will NOT QUALIFY FOR YOUR SUBSIDIES FOR THE POOR?

You guys always seem to think people can get help if they can't afford your plans. You never talk about the sum.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

No trade just cap.
A lot different thing.

Yes, so you'd have a convulted system in which you arbitrarily set caps for each and every industry. Which would cost much more while being quite a deal less fair.

I don't care what it costs. It has to be done. We need to put up carbon taxes and carbon taxes on imports.

[uscitizen]

If they do cap and trade it should be restricted to state boundaries. If if you trade it has to be from someone within your state. So poor states will not get crapped upon.

[tinfoil]

Yes, so you'd have a convulted system in which you arbitrarily set caps for each and every industry. Which would cost much more while being quite a deal less fair.

I don't care what it costs. It has to be done. We need to put up carbon taxes and carbon taxes on imports.


I bet you can't produce a cost benefit analysis to show any kind of gain from cap and trade. Even if we stopped half of our emissions, it wouldn't make a change worth the cost.

You guys are religious zealots. you don't require any proof to believe stuff. You are idiots

[uscitizen]

We need to mostly wean ourselves off of oil and coal for many reasons. Foreign dependence on oil and coal pollutes like crap. Fish caught in streams have enough mercury from coal burning that one is only supposed to eat one serving a week or so if you are healthy, if young or old once a month.

And anyway we go about changing our energy dependence will be expensive.

Ohh btw China will the the number on investor in green energy products within 3 years.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

If they do cap and trade it should be restricted to state boundaries. If if you trade it has to be from someone within your state. So poor states will not get crapped upon.

Why states? That's so arbitrary.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I bet you can't produce a cost benefit analysis to show any kind of gain from cap and trade. Even if we stopped half of our emissions, it wouldn't make a change worth the cost.

You guys are religious zealots. you don't require any proof to believe stuff. You are idiots

Hoaxers are the ones that both have no proof and refuse to accept any evidence.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

You could simply lower income taxes by an amount averaging to 100 billion. You'll have a deficit hole after that, but if you want to raise taxes to cover it you should be honest about it. That's why I think a carbon tax system is, if anything, more honest. And the income can simply be used to lower general taxes by an amount roughly proportional to how hard the poor were hit by the tax.

[Topspin]

ween ourselfs off oil, wow thats funny.
Will never happen. But its a cute fantasy

[uscitizen]

Why states? That's so arbitrary.

So texas shuld be able to but polloution credits from Alaska so they can keep on polluting?

[tinfoil]

Hoaxers are the ones that both have no proof and refuse to accept any evidence.

Climate models are not evidence

Try looking up the sunspot correlation, you moron

[Topspin]

Obama already has strick mpg standards kicking in. Todays cars are way cleaner and getting better every day.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

So texas shuld be able to but polloution credits from Alaska so they can keep on polluting?

Only if Alaska invests in producing fewer greenhouse gasses.

[christiefan915]

Politifact says this isn't correct.

The Obama administration's cap-and-trade plan would create "a $1,761 yearly energy tax."

Lamar Alexander on Wednesday, September 16th, 2009 in a press release

"But back to Alexander's original claim. His statement that households will pay $1,761 in new taxes every year is based on a blogger's incorrect assumptions and overly simple math. The estimate does not account for revenue that will be returned to consumers in the form of rebates and other efficiency measures. Furthermore, the number is based on old numbers; the Treasury estimate was written on the premise that all permits would be sold, which, ultimately, is not the form that the Waxman-Markey legislation has taken. Finally, both Alexander and McCullagh portray money raised by selling these permits as a tax. We rate Alexander's claim False."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/18/lamar-alexander/alexander-claims-cap-and-trade-will-cost-consumer-/

[Lowaicue]

ween ourselfs off oil, wow thats funny.
Will never happen. But its a cute fantasy


I suggest you start looking at that as a possibility. Oil prices are set to go through the roof in the next five years and they are likely to stay there.

Of course you do not need to believe me.

[uscitizen]

Climate models are not evidence

Try looking up the sunspot correlation, you moron

We are in a solar output dip according to something you posted a while back.
Perhaps that is offsetting man cause global warming?


Agreed models are not absolute by any means. I just tend to err in the side of caution where the continued existance of mankind is concerned.
And more specifically future quality of life for my grandchildren.

We have to change our energy sources and modify our useage habits/efficiency.
Who is going to pay for that if not taxes? Industry? That is pretty funny.

[Don Quixote]

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/15/taking_liberties/entry5314040.shtml

how much does not doing this cost in infant, child and adult lungs, asthma and other illnesses

[uscitizen]

how much does not doing this cost in infant, child and adult lungs, asthma and other illnesses

I will have to see if I can find that article I posted about children growing up in high traffic urban areas have underdeveloped / deformed lungs. It was linked to proximity to auto traffic in the neighborhood.

[tinfoil]

We are in a solar output dip according to something you posted a while back.
Perhaps that is offsetting man cause global warming?


Agreed models are not absolute by any means. I just tend to err in the side of caution where the continued existance of mankind is concerned.
And more specifically future quality of life for my grandchildren.

We have to change our energy sources and modify our useage habits/efficiency.
Who is going to pay for that if not taxes? Industry? That is pretty funny.

Correct. Solar minimum at near historic length right now. Cycle 24 is late.
longer cycle periods are correlated with decreased global temps according several reliable proxies: Tree rings, mud cores, etc...

Fighting increases in CO2 concentration is pointless

[uscitizen]

Correct. Solar minimum at near historic length right now. Cycle 24 is late.
longer cycle periods are correlated with decreased global temps according several reliable proxies: Tree rings, mud cores, etc...

Fighting increases in CO2 concentration is pointless

We do not know that fighting golbal co2 levels is pointless.
Unless you want to use some unproven computer models to show that?

[Lowaicue]

We do not know that fighting golbal co2 levels is pointless.
Unless you want to use some unproven computer models to show that?


This whole subject is one giant red herring ... er if i may be permitted to hyperbolise my metaphors.
People are screaming 'waste' and pointing inanely at governments of any hue. Yet at the same time they are driving/owning several ridiculously expensive and wasteful motor cars, they are turning up their central heating to a stifling degree, they are over heating water, over freezing offices with their destructive air cons.
Lets start, not by arguing about global warming, but by being a little more sensible in our own lives. Lets take the burden off local authorities by recycling as much waste as we can, lets cut down on power demand by simply switching off a few unused lights. Let's get rid of excess cars, offer lifts, trade in for more economical vehicles.
Lets encourage the use of guns so that those who think that responsible living an intrusion into their liberty, eventually shoot themselves and each other and within a generation die out.
(Final para t.i.c.)

[uscitizen]

This whole subject is one giant red herring ... er if i may be permitted to hyperbolise my metaphors.
People are screaming 'waste' and pointing inanely at governments of any hue. Yet at the same time they are driving/owning several ridiculously expensive and wasteful motor cars, they are turning up their central heating to a stifling degree, they are over heating water, over freezing offices with their destructive air cons.
Lets start, not by arguing about global warming, but by being a little more sensible in our own lives. Lets take the burden off local authorities by recycling as much waste as we can, lets cut down on power demand by simply switching off a few unused lights. Let's get rid of excess cars, offer lifts, trade in for more economical vehicles.
Lets encourage the use of guns so that those who think that responsible living an intrusion into their liberty, eventually shoot themselves and each other and within a generation die out.
(Final para t.i.c.)

Yep imho the first thing we should do if offer tax breaks and other incentives to improve energy efficiency in our homes. Insulation, more efficient heating systems, etc.
I expect that with a concerted effort we could reduce our electric consumption by 30% within a few years.

[Minister of Truth]

This whole subject is one giant red herring ... er if i may be permitted to hyperbolise my metaphors.
People are screaming 'waste' and pointing inanely at governments of any hue. Yet at the same time they are driving/owning several ridiculously expensive and wasteful motor cars, they are turning up their central heating to a stifling degree, they are over heating water, over freezing offices with their destructive air cons.
Lets start, not by arguing about global warming, but by being a little more sensible in our own lives. Lets take the burden off local authorities by recycling as much waste as we can, lets cut down on power demand by simply switching off a few unused lights. Let's get rid of excess cars, offer lifts, trade in for more economical vehicles.
Lets encourage the use of guns so that those who think that responsible living an intrusion into their liberty, eventually shoot themselves and each other and within a generation die out.
(Final para t.i.c.)


Government doesn't have Natural Rights, people do.

[tinfoil]

We do not know that fighting golbal co2 levels is pointless.
Unless you want to use some unproven computer models to show that?

Yes, we do know it's pointless. But some peop;le with a lot of money and good PR behind them have used the media to convice everyone it's going to make a difference when the math itself tells a different story. You obviously do not understand the logorithmic relationship. the first 10 PPM is responsible for 90% of the greenhouse effect.

That means 10 parts per million is enough CO2 molecules to reflect infared radiation back that has been reflected off the surface.

We are at 380 parts per million. Do the math. We could increase to 1500 PPM and make almost no difference. You can't make any extra infared radiation reflect back after it's ALREADY being reflected back ANYWAY.

[uscitizen]

Yes, we do know it's pointless. But some peop;le with a lot of money and good PR behind them have used the media to convice everyone it's going to make a difference when the math itself tells a different story. You obviously do not understand the logorithmic relationship. the first 10 PPM is responsible for 90% of the greenhouse effect.

That means 10 parts per million is enough CO2 molecules to reflect infared radiation back that has been reflected off the surface.

We are at 380 parts per million. Do the math. We could increase to 1500 PPM and make almost no difference. You can't make any extra infared radiation reflect back after it's ALREADY being reflected back ANYWAY.


Umm I think that is based on another computer model ;)

As I said there is no way to prove it, but for my grandchildrens future I like the conservative approach. as in conserve our earth is the only place we have.

[Lowaicue]

Government doesn't have Natural Rights, people do.


Think about it.
What rights do you have?
The pursuit of happiness? Controlled by profit.
Enough to eat? Controlled by profit.
Shelter from the elements? Controlled by profit.
Rights enshrined in your constitution? Do I have to go on?
Rights is a massive con.
You don't even have the 'right' to eat natural food or drink natural water.
You don't have the right to the government of your choice only the right to choose between what big business allows.
You dont even have the right to a fair trial should you need it.
The rights of ordinary people are whatever profit says they are and that is no rights!

[tinfoil]

Umm I think that is based on another computer model ;)

As I said there is no way to prove it, but for my grandchildrens future I like the conservative approach. as in conserve our earth is the only place we have.

Dude, you're sealing their fate. Just like the people who watched as they created a fedreal reserve and created income taxes way back the good old days. Your offspring will live no better by paying extra taxes to gain the minscule reduced forcing of the CO2 concentration. Big business will continue to pollute, as you call it, by emitting CO2, the will simply pay for it and pass the cost onto CONSUMERS who will also get it the ass via TAXES that will subsidise many of the same companies that pollute.

LOL you guys just can't see a system for what it is.

[DamnYankee]

LOL. Yeah a bit. I admit to it but keep working on it.

After all where I grew up I did not see a live black person till I was 16 or so.
But plenty hanging in the trees of your Democrat KKK neighbors.

[DamnYankee]

Umm I think that is based on another computer model ;).... A relatively simple one, not at all like global warming models, that can't predict the weather net winter never mind 50 years from now.

[uscitizen]

But plenty hanging in the trees of your Democrat KKK neighbors.

Wrong no dead ones either. I did see some on TV when we finally got on. How ironic a B&W TV :)

[Minister of Truth]

Think about it.
What rights do you have?
The pursuit of happiness? Controlled by profit. Not Government
Enough to eat? Controlled by profit. Not Government
Shelter from the elements? Controlled by profit. Not Government
Rights enshrined in your constitution? Do I have to go on?
Rights is a massive con.
You don't even have the 'right' to eat natural food or drink natural water.
You don't have the right to the government of your choice only the right to choose between what big business allows. Not Government
You dont even have the right to a fair trial should you need it.
The rights of ordinary people are whatever profit says they are and that is no rights!

STFU socialist. The only legitimate government is based upon natural rights.

[ib1yysguy]

STFU socialist. The only legitimate government is based upon natural rights.

There is no such thing as natural rights.

[Don Quixote]

STFU socialist. The only legitimate government is based upon natural rights.

please provide examples of natural rights

[Lowaicue]

STFU socialist. The only legitimate government is based upon natural rights.

Silly little boy.

[cancel2 2022]

STFU socialist. The only legitimate government is based upon natural rights.

You are not supposed to use bad language in APP, even if you use abbreviations.

[cancel2 2022]

Silly little boy.

He has much to learn yet, I guess he must be pining for the fjords or something to want to change his name to T&A.

[cancel2 2022]

Wrong no dead ones either. I did see some on TV when we finally got on. How ironic a B&W TV :)

Are you familiar with the old Billie Holliday song Strange Fruit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Fruit

[Lowaicue]

STFU socialist. The only legitimate government is based upon natural rights.


'fraid ah kent see whacherole drahvin' aet, boy. Control is control it ain't freedom and it ain't no rahts. Yoh jist a pone lahk the rest of uzz.
Well, ah guess ya do have the raht te be a pone, heh heh heh.

[cancel2 2022]

Yes, we do know it's pointless. But some peop;le with a lot of money and good PR behind them have used the media to convice everyone it's going to make a difference when the math itself tells a different story. You obviously do not understand the logorithmic relationship. the first 10 PPM is responsible for 90% of the greenhouse effect.

That means 10 parts per million is enough CO2 molecules to reflect infared radiation back that has been reflected off the surface.

We are at 380 parts per million. Do the math. We could increase to 1500 PPM and make almost no difference. You can't make any extra infared radiation reflect back after it's ALREADY being reflected back ANYWAY.

Infra-red radiation is not reflected back by anything, the process is one of absorption by CO2 of the infra-red radiating from the Earth's surface in the form of heat. This article describes the process very neatly albeit it may be too scientific for some.

http://brneurosci.org/co2.html

[tinfoil]

Infra-red radiation is not reflected back by anything, the process is one of absorption by CO2 of the infra-red radiating from the Earth's surface in the form of heat. This article describes the process very neatly albeit it may be too scientific for some.

http://brneurosci.org/co2.html

Basic mechanism
See also: Radiative forcing

The Earth receives energy from the Sun mostly in the form of visible light; about 50% of the sun's energy reaches the Earth and is absorbed by the surface. Like all bodies with a temperature above absolute zero the Earth's surface radiates energy in the infrared range. Greenhouse gases absorb infrared radiation and pass the absorbed heat to other atmospheric gases through molecular collisions. The greenhouse gases also radiate in the infrared range. Radiation is emitted both upward, with part escaping to space, and downward toward Earth's surface. The surface and lower atmosphere are warmed by the part of the energy that is radiated downward, making our life on earth possible.[8]


They absorb and pass the heat on. It's the same thing essentially

[tinfoil]

http://brneurosci.org/beers-law.gif

[DamnYankee]

There is no such thing as natural rights. Yes there is, Commie. They are defined in the Declaration of Independence, 2nd paragraph.

[Lowaicue]

Yes there is, Commie. They are defined in the Declaration of Independence, 2nd paragraph.

Those are man made and not natural and can be taken away from you.

[DamnYankee]

Those are man made and not natural and can be taken away from you. Again according to the Declaration of independence they are rights issued to man from God. You are correct that they can be taken away which is why the Declaration was issued in the first place and why the Constitution requires Congress to finance a military along with confirming our right to bear arms in Amendment II.

[Lowaicue]

Again according to the Declaration of independence they are rights issued to man from God. You are correct that they can be taken away which is why the Declaration was issued in the first place and why the Constitution requires Congress to finance a military along with confirming our right to bear arms in Amendment II.

Natural rights are those rights that are enjoyed, or not, by all men. Your declaration of independence has absolutley nothing whatever to do with most of the world - neither has a foreign (US) constitution. The rights we all enjoy are those given us by our fellow man. That's all they are, no more, no less.
If you wish to change your point to 'American citizens rights' I would have no objection.

[Minister of Truth]

please provide examples of natural rights

Life, Liberty, and Property. Read: John Locke, Declaration of Independence, 14th Amendment.

[Minister of Truth]

Natural rights are those rights that are enjoyed, or not, by all men. Your declaration of independence has absolutley nothing whatever to do with most of the world - neither has a foreign (US) constitution. The rights we all enjoy are those given us by our fellow man. That's all they are, no more, no less.
If you wish to change your point to 'American citizens rights' I would have no objection.

Good, you stay with the rest of the world. Be a good subject.

[Minister of Truth]

You are not supposed to use bad language in APP, even if you use abbreviations.

Don't care.

[DamnYankee]

Natural rights are those rights that are enjoyed, or not, by all men. Your declaration of independence has absolutley nothing whatever to do with most of the world - neither has a foreign (US) constitution. The rights we all enjoy are those given us by our fellow man. That's all they are, no more, no less.
If you wish to change your point to 'American citizens rights' I would have no objection. Although the Declaration of Independence is a US document the natural rights that it describes are still natural rights. Even democratic societies in Europe and elsewhere have denied themselves these rights; that has no bearing on the rights being natural.

[Minister of Truth]

There is no such thing as natural rights.

Then why go on living in the one country founded upon them. Lots of countries out there to pick from, where you can conform to the dictates of "your rights extend from 'me' or 'us."

[DamnYankee]

Then why go on living in the one country founded upon them. Lots of countries out there to pick from, where you can conform to the dictates of "your rights extend from 'me' or 'us." Very few countries respect natural rights. Their citizens have to want them bad enough to raise up arms and fight for it.

[uscitizen]

If life is a natural right then we should have nationalized healthcare?

[cancel2 2022]

Don't care.

Don't care was made to care.

[DamnYankee]

If life is a natural right then we should have nationalized healthcare? What a wimpy, whiny argument. You liberals pussies bring up health care in every fucking argument.

You have the right to pay for your own damn health care. I have a right not to pay for yours. Dipshit. :pke:

[uscitizen]

What a wimpy, whiny argument. You liberals pussies bring up health care in every fucking argument.

You have the right to pay for your own damn health care. I have a right not to pay for yours. Dipshit. :pke:

Such anger. I ask a legitimate question and you go all offensively defensive.

If freedom equates to a military then does not life equate to health care?

[DamnYankee]

Such anger. I ask a legitimate question and you go all offensively defensive.

If freedom equates to a military then does not life equate to health care?

(EDIT: NOT APP Material).

[Lowaicue]

Good, you stay with the rest of the world. Be a good subject.

It is to be prefered to an existence as a dumb yank who doen't know which way is up.

[Lowaicue]

Very few countries respect natural rights. Their citizens have to want them bad enough to raise up arms and fight for it.

Unfortunately you cannot enjoy many, if any, of those natural rights in this 2009 world.
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is denied to most people. If you just take a minute to think about it you will agree. Tell me which parts of your idyllic existence are free of controls imposed from without. And if I fight you for my rights and you fight me for yours what rights are left?

[Lowaicue]

What a wimpy, whiny argument. You liberals pussies bring up health care in every fucking argument.

You have the right to pay for your own damn health care. I have a right not to pay for yours. Dipshit. :pke:

Well, death is probably the last inalienable right we all have. Enjoy yours.

[DamnYankee]

Unfortunately you cannot enjoy many, if any, of those natural rights in this 2009 world.
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is denied to most people. If you just take a minute to think about it you will agree. Tell me which parts of your idyllic existence are free of controls imposed from without. And if I fight you for my rights and you fight me for yours what rights are left? What a ridiculous argument, zero sum game with rights. LOL.

[DamnYankee]

Well, death is probably the last inalienable right we all have. Enjoy yours. Its going to be a while pal. Don't hold your breathe. Or on second thought, do.

[Lowaicue]

What a ridiculous argument, zero sum game with rights. LOL.

It is part of the American psyche to obsess about freedoms, rights and their possible loss. So obsess.
The American right wing is beginning to look quite strange.

It refuses to accept change and relies on a bunch of rules first drafted in seventeen something. Islamists go back a bit further but I'm sure you can recognise the similarities.

The America right wing firmly believe that they live in god's chosen land and that the rest of the world is envious of them. North Koreans believe exactly the same.

The American right wing support something called 'the patriot act'. The only other large country to have a similar 'rule' is the Peoples Republic of China.

Funny old world we live in, isn't it?

[DamnYankee]

It is part of the American psyche to obsess about freedoms, rights and their possible loss. So obsess.
The American right wing is beginning to look quite strange.

It refuses to accept change and relies on a bunch of rules first drafted in seventeen something. Islamists go back a bit further but I'm sure you can recognise the similarities.

The America right wing firmly believe that they live in god's chosen land and that the rest of the world is envious of them. North Koreans believe exactly the same.

The American right wing support something called 'the patriot act'. The only other large country to have a similar 'rule' is the Peoples Republic of China.

Funny old world we live in, isn't it?The only strange part of America is the whiny liberals.

[Lowaicue]

The only strange part of America is the whiny liberals.

That ain't nuthin' t'do with me, pard.

[Cancel5]

The only strange part of America is the whiny liberals.
Same inane excuse, different day, why are you so ineffective as a conservative? the big bad liberals get you down? Fight like a man, don't become whiny like your counterparts!!!!

[uscitizen]

The only strange part of America is the whiny liberals.

And those 1.7 million (some claim) whiney cons in DC last weekend.