Here's what Bush should do about Iraq....

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

In light of the recent elections, and America's generic call for "change," I think the president should adopt the following policy regarding Iraq...

Announce the appointment of a "War Committee" comprised of three D's and three R's , headed by Joe Lieberman, and give them the full authority to form a bipartisan policy agenda regarding Iraq. They will shape a cohesive "plan" directive, which will be endorsed, in signature, by both parties, and will clearly state our objectives, strategies, and goals in Iraq, as a nation.

It is time to stop the politicizing of this war, and start leading America. Democrats have demonstrated, they will be perfectly content to pretend they are standing on the sidelines, (being cheer-leaders for the enemy, if they have to be), simply because they dislike Bush. Even with a major victory and full control of Congress, they are already slinking away from responsibility, and claiming their power is limited. I think it's time for Bush to push them into presenting America with a plan, a unified bipartisan plan, that we can all rally around and support in Iraq.

[Damocles]

Committees don't lead, they argue.

[Sir Evil]

Committees don't lead, they argue.

Superb point, just like it is here, no common ground to even speak of.

[Prakosh]

In light of the recent elections, and America's generic call for "change," I think the president should adopt the following policy regarding Iraq...

Announce the appointment of a "War Committee" comprised of three D's and three R's , headed by Joe Lieberman, and give them the full authority to form a bipartisan policy agenda regarding Iraq. They will shape a cohesive "plan" directive, which will be endorsed, in signature, by both parties, and will clearly state our objectives, strategies, and goals in Iraq, as a nation.

It is time to stop the politicizing of this war, and start leading America. Democrats have demonstrated, they will be perfectly content to pretend they are standing on the sidelines, (being cheer-leaders for the enemy, if they have to be), simply because they dislike Bush. Even with a major victory and full control of Congress, they are already slinking away from responsibility, and claiming their power is limited. I think it's time for Bush to push them into presenting America with a plan, a unified bipartisan plan, that we can all rally around and support in Iraq.

I think the first actions you have suggested here have already been taken. I think this is what the Baker group was engaged to provide. Evidently you haven't heard of them yet. Perhaps if you watched more Comedy Central/Jon Stewart you would know what was going on regarding the Iraq War. And of course the best way to stop politicizing the war is to make sure that the committe looking into the war is stacked with a majority of war-mongers. How falsely bi-partisan, sneaky and unfair of you, BILLO. You really think the rest of us here are mindless morons and you are the only person here who is "smart" don't you???

What is amazing is that after all this time even you still evidently don't know yet what our "objectives, strategies, and goals in Iraq" are. That's a thought-provoking admittance given your blind and un-qualified support for the war up to this point. Don't you agree???

[Sir Evil]

What is amazing is that after all this time even you still evidently don't know yet what our "objectives, strategies, and goals in Iraq" are. That's a thought-provoking admittance given you blind and un-qualified support for the war up to this point. Don't you agree???

Hmm, what would be those objectives & goals you speak of? And are they really something that can be classified as ours? Seriously, after pointing out the war-mongers just like the majority of tools on this site, can it really be something of a united thing?

[Prakosh]

Hmm, what would be those objectives & goals you speak of? And are they really something that can be classified as ours? Seriously, after pointing out the war-mongers just like the majority of tools on this site, can it really be something of a united thing?

You should direct this query to Dixie, the quotation is from his post. I don't know what the hell he is talking about there or what this abstract langauge refers to, my guess is he doesn't know either.

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

What is amazing is that after all this time even you still evidently don't know yet what our "objectives, strategies, and goals in Iraq" are. That's a thought-provoking admittance given you blind and un-qualified support for the war up to this point. Don't you agree???

Well, get a load of this... Unlike your partisan political ass, I am an independent thinker. I actually don't care who is sitting in the chairman seat when America comes to agreement on Iraq policy, I just want to see America agree on a direction, and take it. I'm sick of hearing Liberals whine and moan about Bush, and complain that their hands are tied. I'm sick of hearing all the bashing and criticism of "the plan" as it were, and a total lack of any alternative from Democrats.

On Tuesday, the country spoke. It is fairly universal, that people believe the voters wanted change in Iraq. I am 'fair and balanced' enough, to honor the wishes of Democracy, unlike your koolaid-drinking ilk. If the people want change, and they trust the Democrats so much, let the Democrats run the fucking war! Put them in charge of it! Let's hear what the Great Democrat Plan is for Iraq! My idea of a War Committee is fairly simple, it gives us a chance to come together in a bipartisan effort, to do what is best in Iraq. Isn't that what you all want? Or do you just want to keep Iraq a partisan political hammer to bash over Bush's head?

[Prakosh]

I'm sick of hearing all the bashing and criticism of "the plan" as it were.

What exactly is "'the plan' as it were" BILLO???


On Tuesday, the country spoke. It is fairly universal, that people believe the voters wanted change in Iraq.

Well, according to the Newsweek poll I just posted Iraq is a ways down on the list of things troubling Americans post-election. The top issues are the ignorant Republican prescription drug bill that was rammed down America's throat and mostly benefitted big Pharma (75 percent). The other big issues is the minimum wage bill (67 percent) and an investigation of government contracts in Iraq (60 percent).

So I guess the Democrats have a little bit better handle on what the American people want than the Repubicans and their pro-business allies on K Street ever gave them credit for. Funny that with all this talk about Iraq the most important issue is contract fraud isn't it. Looks like the people even understand what Congress's limits are huh???

Wake up BILLO; the coffees on!!!!!

[OrnotBitwise]

Superb point, just like it is here, no common ground to even speak of.No, it's an obvious and rather obtuse point. No offense intended, but it's so, just the same.

"Leading" -- however you intend that word -- is not what committees are for. The orginal premis was absurd.

[maineman]

If the people want change, and they trust the Democrats so much, let the Democrats run the fucking war! Put them in charge of it! Let's hear what the Great Democrat Plan is for Iraq! My idea of a War Committee is fairly simple, it gives us a chance to come together in a bipartisan effort, to do what is best in Iraq. Isn't that what you all want? Or do you just want to keep Iraq a partisan political hammer to bash over Bush's head?

If you would be supportive of impeaching Bush and Cheney in January, President Pelosi would run the fucking war. Shy of that, we really can't RUN the fucking war until January 2009 when we reclaim the white house from you inept incompetent bunch of keystone cops. There is no universal consensus as to how to extricate ourselves from this terrible terrible mess you all have gotten us into...there WAS, however, consensus that something better change and it was clear to Americans that the do-nothing republican congress would not take any active role in determining that new direction or even acknowledging that a new course was needed. That's why you lost. Democrats in congress will force Bush to sit down and develop a new plan for Iraq and the war on terror in conjunction with those democrats.

[Damocles]

Committees are designed to bring forth ideas, not to make decisions. Hence my assertion that Committees do not lead.

[maineman]

damo...I agree.... we are resigned to have Bush lead this administration for the next two years. Democrats will be able to provide input and oversight, but he is not compelled to take the input and may very well balk at the oversight.

[Sir Evil]

You should direct this query to Dixie, the quotation is from his post. I don't know what the hell he is talking about there or what this abstract langauge refers to, my guess is he doesn't know either.

My mistake, apparently I misunderstood the post.

[Sir Evil]

No, it's an obvious and rather obtuse point. No offense intended, but it's so, just the same.

"Leading" -- however you intend that word -- is not what committees are for. The orginal premis was absurd.

Yes, another apparent on the same thread!

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Committees are designed to bring forth ideas, not to make decisions. Hence my assertion that Committees do not lead.

I agree with what you are saying, but Bush can't lead, he is a lame duck now, and has absolutely no political capital. No decision he makes is going to pass muster with the big head Democrats now, and the only solution I could think of, was to let the Democrats form their little power-trip cabal, and come up with a universal health care plan for Iraq!

[maineman]

except the constitution doesn't really allow for such an approach, and one doubts the pissant cowboy that you love so much in blue jeans is going to allow for that much democratic input.

We will have oversight, however, so he best not fuck up too badly. Ooops...forgot...he already HAS. So I guess the investigations will begin...from Haliburton to Katrina and everything in between!

[OrnotBitwise]

I agree with what you are saying, but Bush can't lead, he is a lame duck now, and has absolutely no political capital. No decision he makes is going to pass muster with the big head Democrats now, and the only solution I could think of, was to let the Democrats form their little power-trip cabal, and come up with a universal health care plan for Iraq!
Ironically enough, an effective universal health care plan for Iraq might actually help. Unfortunately, their economy can't support such a system without aid yet and we're unlikely to fund it -- healthcare being against the prezzy's principles as it is.

You really want to know what we need to do to "win" (sic) in Iraq? I'll tell you, knowing full well that neither the president nor Congress have the guts to address the issue. We need to hire Iraqis to rebuild Iraq, not contract American corporations to do so.

Why has all the money for Iraqi "reconstruction" gone to American, English and multi-national corporations? You're a good ol' southern boy: doesn't the word "carpetbagger" mean anything to you? How about "profiteer"?

Last time I looked, Iraqi unemployment was running somewhere around 50% . . . and that's in a country where women are discouraged from working outside the home. We could have gotten far better value for our billions hiring Iraqi companies directly, as primary contractors, to do major reconstruction projects AND reduced social stress in Iraq by reducing unemployment.

Too late now, alas.

[charver]

What should Bush do about Iraq? - Deny responsibility for everything that has occurred.

That's worked out well.

Now, what will Bush do? Blame everything on the Democrats? That seems the most likely option.

What should Bush do? In a word...accept some responsibility (even though that appears to be 3 words, our intelligence agencies told us it was only one word and we were so eager not to be traitors to our country that we accepted the complete fabrication wholesale). Democracy, 9/11, al Qeada, they hate our freedom...(Chorus - repeat ad infinitum)

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

except the constitution doesn't really allow for such an approach, and one doubts the pissant cowboy that you love so much in blue jeans is going to allow for that much democratic input.

We will have oversight, however, so he best not fuck up too badly. Ooops...forgot...he already HAS. So I guess the investigations will begin...from Haliburton to Katrina and everything in between!


Well, yeah, the Constitution really does allow for whatever approach the president wants to take, with the approval of Congress. I can think of no better system of oversight than what I suggested. And this has nothing to do with my personal feelings toward president Bush.

If you are more interested in investigating Katrina and Haliburton than solving the problems in Iraq, the American people will reject you so badly in '08, your party will never recover. That isn't a "prediction", it's common sense. No one (except you) voted for two more years of investigation and impeachment, they mostly all voted for change in Iraq, according to your polls.

What is amazing is, I can suggest a bipartisan committee to forge a solid Iraq policy and strategy, and you express absolutely ZERO interest in something like that. Why is that? Could it be, you don't really want to solve the problems in Iraq, because Iraq is such an attractive and effective political hammer for you? That is pretty despicable and disgusting, if you ask me.

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Ironically enough, an effective universal health care plan for Iraq might actually help. Unfortunately, their economy can't support such a system without aid yet and we're unlikely to fund it -- healthcare being against the prezzy's principles as it is.

I guess I should have put "universal health care plan" in quotes, so that you morons understood, I didn't literally mean a universal medical health care plan for Iraq. In essence, I meant a plan that would be universally accepted among Democrats, Republicans, and Independents, for the future care of the health of Iraq democracy.

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

We need to hire Iraqis to rebuild Iraq, not contract American corporations to do so.

Well, now see? Here is a perfect example of an idea from a pinhead, which could be brought up before the bipartisan War Committee and discussed fully. In the end, they could collectively decide whether this was a good idea or bad idea, and issue a statement on it. Then, the issue would be settled, if they came back and said, we feel this is a bad idea, there is too much corruption for it to work effectively, people would just run off with the money and the country wouldn't get rebuilt... or maybe they say, hey... great idea, let's do that! In any event, the issue is settled, and we can move on. We don't have to listen to pinheads continue to raise the issue over and over, because the bipartisan Committee deliberated on it already, and came to a conclusion.

[OrnotBitwise]

We need to hire Iraqis to rebuild Iraq, not contract American corporations to do so.

Well, now see? Here is a perfect example of an idea from a pinhead, which could be brought up before the bipartisan War Committee and discussed fully. In the end, they could collectively decide whether this was a good idea or bad idea, and issue a statement on it. Then, the issue would be settled, if they came back and said, we feel this is a bad idea, there is too much corruption for it to work effectively, people would just run off with the money and the country wouldn't get rebuilt... or maybe they say, hey... great idea, let's do that! In any event, the issue is settled, and we can move on. We don't have to listen to pinheads continue to raise the issue over and over, because the bipartisan Committee deliberated on it already, and came to a conclusion.I don't know just what you think you said there but I defend your right to say it . . . whatever it was. Now that you've said it, however, can we return to the topic at hand?

Why is it, do you think, that so many Iraqis don't see us as saviors, or even simple liberators? Gosh, you don't suppose that it might be because they perceive us to have prosecuted this war purely for our own benefit and at their expense do you?

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I don't know just what you think you said there but I defend your right to say it . . . whatever it was. Now that you've said it, however, can we return to the topic at hand?

Well, I think it's pretty clear what I said, is there something specific you don't comprehend? It was concerning the topic at hand, which is Iraq and what to do about Iraq.

Why is it, do you think, that so many Iraqis don't see us as saviors, or even simple liberators? Gosh, you don't suppose that it might be because they perceive us to have prosecuted this war purely for our own benefit and at their expense do you?

Well, you see... it doesn't matter what Iraqi people see us as, or what I think. What matters, is finding a way to accomplish something in Iraq. I don't really care who's fault it was, or why it was stupid to go into Iraq, or anything other than finding a solution to the problem at hand. I don't think I can be any more objective and reasonable, than to suggest we appoint a bipartisan committee to determine a unified strategy. Why would anyone be opposed to this, if you are genuinely concerned with finding solutions to the problems in Iraq?

[maineman]

Dixie: you need to understand that there exists a giant gap between the fact that YOU can't think of a better approach to fixing this war that your party has fucked up so royally...and the range of possible, more appropriate options.

If the universe of possible solutions was limited by your intellect, we would indeed by in dire danger.

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Dixie: you need to understand that there exists a giant gap between the fact that YOU can't think of a better approach to fixing this war that your party has fucked up so royally...and the range of possible, more appropriate options.

If the universe of possible solutions was limited by your intellect, we would indeed by in dire danger.

It seems to me there is a "giant gap" between people who think we need to just pull up stakes and leave Iraq this minute, admit we fucked up and apologize, pay damages and reparations and try Bush and Cheney for War Crimes.........GAP.........and Americans who want to see a viable resolution to the conflict in Iraq, which leaves US and Iraq in a better position in the end.

My approach is simple. Democrats just won the election, and control Congress, and the main point of focus, was change in Iraq. Let's put 3 D's, 3 R's, and an I, in a room together, and let them brainstorm the Iraq War, and what to do from here. Let them establish what we are doing as a nation, exactly, so that we can all come to terms with our goals, objectives, and mission, and avoid this "huge gap" we seem to now have.

I know what Bush's strategy for Iraq was, he even published it in book form, A Plan for Victory in Iraq. Apparently, America isn't satisfied with that plan, or they wanted some change made. Obviously, Democrats who won power, are not happy with this plan, it's the main focus for them, and reason they won the election. I am a fair and impartial person, not a partisan hack, I am willing to say... okay, Bush's Strategy is off the table now, let's discuss what you think we should do. I've not abandoned what I believe, or recanted any opinion I have had about Bush's Strategy for Iraq, I think it was a sound plan. I am not so egotistical or stubborn to think, America operates on what I think alone. I realize we live in a democracy, where everyone has a voice, and the Democrats have won the right to have a voice in Iraq policy.

I read your response to this, as almost wishing Democrats had not won majorities, just came close. So that you could keep hiding behind your 'powerless' status, and claiming your hands are tied. I am afraid, this election placed you in the driver seat, where you wanted to be. Now Drive!

[maineman]

again...the election just moved us up to the front seat. The person in the driver's seat is the president. He is not about to cede authority for developing Iraq war solutions to a bipartisan committee imagined by one of his pals from alabama. It seems like you are completely unaware of the character of the man in blue jeans you love so much.

[Cypress]

Announce the appointment of a "War Committee" comprised of three D's and three R's , headed by Joe Lieberman, and give them the full authority to form a bipartisan policy agenda regarding Iraq.

What a dumbass. What are you watching, Fox News?

He's already done this you idiot. The bipartisan Baker Commission.

Three years too late, I might add

[AnyOldIron]

What Bush should do first is try to comprehend the problem we are facing, and realise that we, and secular Muslim leaders, are fighting extremism for the minds of the Muslim people.

Until he can get that into his head, we will continue with the same, blunt, dull-headed approach to the battle against Islamic Jihad...

[Jarod]

Bush got us into this mess, the Democrats will begin the process of leading us out!

They havent even taken over the House or Senate yet... Geesh give them some time. The new leadership does not even take power till January.

Clearly what needs to happen is that we need to acknoldge a mistake was made when we invaded a sovrin nation based on flaued evidence without the support of the world community. Then we need to admit that we need the world community's help and ask for it.

The UN could send a multinational force into Iraq to establish a peace and begin the process of setting up a government. We all need to realize that what took a few short years to fuck up will take 40 years to clean up.

[Battleborne]

Bush got us into this mess, the Democrats will begin the process of leading us out!

They havent even taken over the House or Senate yet... Geesh give them some time. The new leadership does not even take power till January.

Clearly what needs to happen is that we need to acknoldge a mistake was made when we invaded a sovrin nation based on flaued evidence without the support of the world community. Then we need to admit that we need the world community's help and ask for it.

The UN could send a multinational force into Iraq to establish a peace and begin the process of setting up a government. We all need to realize that what took a few short years to fuck up will take 40 years to clean up.


The UN ya have got to be kidding!...If ya remember they are the cowards who cut and ran from Iraq after the 'first' attack on their compound after the invasion!

[Gaffer]

Yeah there's a great idea, lets turn it over to the UN. They know how to control insergents and keep the peace in the area. They only have to supply about 200,000 peace keepers.

Of course they will have to move back into there old facility. But wait? isn't that the facility they ran away from when some mortors were fired at them? The one they never remanned?

Yeah lets let the un take care of things there. They can over see the civilwar and watch the slaughter from their bunkers.

The insergents could never stand up to the power of the mighty un.

[Jarod]

The UN ya have got to be kidding!...If ya remember they are the cowards who cut and ran from Iraq after the 'first' attack on their compound after the invasion!


Thats because they were there for a different reason with a different mandate. They were not under a mandate to fight for the peace.

The UN has been very effective in other situations simular to Iraq. Bosnia and Hatii for example.

[Battleborne]

Thats because they were there for a different reason with a different mandate. They were not under a mandate to fight for the peace.

The UN has been very effective in other situations simular to Iraq. Bosnia and Hatii for example.


The UN under the helm of non other than Wes Clark bombed the hell out of Bosnia covering US aircraft with the UN symbol...he put Islam back in the saddle...and what about the Israel/Lebbanon war the UN cut and ran when observer posts were hit by mortors also...geez!

[Jarod]

The UN under the helm of non other than Wes Clark bombed the hell out of Bosnia covering US aircraft with the UN symbol...he put Islam back in the saddle...and what about the Israel/Lebbanon war the UN cut and ran when observer posts were hit by mortors also...geez!

They were there as OBSERVERS, when OBSERVERS are attacked they run. What an idiot you are. The UN was not in Lebanon as fighters, they were not set up to fight. They were able to conduct the Bosnian deal without the loss of a single American life!

[Battleborne]

They were there as OBSERVERS, when OBSERVERS are attacked they run. What an idiot you are. The UN was not in Lebanon as fighters, they were not set up to fight. They were able to conduct the Bosnian deal without the loss of a single American life!


you call me an idiot...I called you no such name for your opinion! Also wrong about the observer thingee...sorry son this VN vet disagrees...while in Nam a friend of mine...Jerry was his name(Still is) was a forward observer and called artillery in on 'his' position as it was being overrun by the NVA...he lost 1/4 of his forearm but saved the day...got a Silver Star for it! and a Purple Heart!:pke:

[maineman]

no UN troops cut and run....just unarmed bureaucrats, and they were ordered to leave....

[Jarod]

you call me an idiot...I called you no such name for your opinion! Also wrong about the observer thingee...sorry son this VN vet disagrees...while in Nam a friend of mine...Jerry was his name(Still is) was a forward observer and called artillery in on 'his' position as it was being overrun by the NVA...he lost 1/4 of his forearm but saved the day...got a Silver Star for it! and a Purple Heart!:pke:



I dont give a shit if you are a viet nam vet. You are still wrong. When your friend Jerry was a forward observer he was in the United States army. An army that was a combatant in the conflict and set up as such. The UN was not in Lebanon as a combatants, they were not set up for that type of fight. They were not prepared to set up for anything but getting out of the way. If the UN went to Iraq to help us, they would have to be set up for it!

[maineman]

UNMO's in Lebanon stayed and reported on the Israeli attacks on El Khiam until the Israeli ordinance struck their Observation Post and killed all four of them

[Battleborne]

I dont give a shit if you are a viet nam vet. You are still wrong. When your friend Jerry was a forward observer he was in the United States army. An army that was a combatant in the conflict and set up as such. The UN was not in Lebanon as a combatants, they were not set up for that type of fight. They were not prepared to set up for anything but getting out of the way. If the UN went to Iraq to help us, they would have to be set up for it!



dude a coward is still a coward in my books...but go ahead and support the UN to youir hearts content...they are losers and always will be...spin away though!

[maineman]

you call me an idiot...I called you no such name for your opinion! Also wrong about the observer thingee...sorry son this VN vet disagrees...while in Nam a friend of mine...Jerry was his name(Still is) was a forward observer and called artillery in on 'his' position as it was being overrun by the NVA...he lost 1/4 of his forearm but saved the day...got a Silver Star for it! and a Purple Heart!:pke:

Battleborne.... you may be a VN vet, but I am a Lebanon vet and you don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about. There is a significant difference between an armed forward observer whose job it is to call in air strikes, and an unarmed UN military observer whose job it is to report movement of Israeli forces in the UNIFIL operation area south of the Litani river.

[Battleborne]

Battleborne.... you may be a VN vet, but I am a Lebanon vet and you don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about. There is a significant difference between an armed forward observer whose job it is to call in air strikes, and an unarmed UN military observer whose job it is to report movement of Israeli forces in the UNIFIL operation area south of the Litani river.



and when did you get back from Lebanon? Did you observe what really happened or is this spin? And yes I do have a clue about how the UN operates...they are big mouth cowards...end of story!

[Jarod]

and when did you get back from Lebanon? Did you observe what really happened or is this spin? And yes I do have a clue about how the UN operates...they are big mouth cowards...end of story!

ROTFLMAO!

[maineman]

and when did you get back from Lebanon? Did you observe what really happened or is this spin? And yes I do have a clue about how the UN operates...they are big mouth cowards...end of story!

Tell General George Casey the UN are a bunch of cowards. You clearly don't have a clue what the UN observers do in Lebanon and how they are inherently different from forward observers. Forward observers are part of an armed force.... UN observers are unarmed and do totally different functions. I served in the UN Truce Supervision Organization with Major George Casey in 1981-82.. he took the picture of me on top of Cheops, by the way.

YOu routinely "end the story" when you don't know what you are talking about.... that is an interesting quirk.

[Cypress]

and when did you get back from Lebanon?
Did you observe what really happened or is this spin?


And yes I do have a clue about how the UN operates...they are big mouth cowards...end of story!


LOL

You sure you aren't a 16-year old kid, with an invented on-line persona?

[Battleborne]

LOL

You sure you aren't a 16-year old kid, with an invented on-line persona?


sure...nice spin though!

[Battleborne]

Tell General George Casey the UN are a bunch of cowards. You clearly don't have a clue what the UN observers do in Lebanon and how they are inherently different from forward observers. Forward observers are part of an armed force.... UN observers are unarmed and do totally different functions. I served in the UN Truce Supervision Organization with Major George Casey in 1981-82.. he took the picture of me on top of Cheops, by the way.

YOu routinely "end the story" when you don't know what you are talking about.... that is an interesting quirk.


and ya still did not state your grade... denial is so unbecomming...dontcha think?

[maineman]

why would I deny that I am a retired Navy Commander with 25 years in uniform?

why do you avoid owning up for your own misstatements?

you cute little tirade about forward observers was dead wrong. You should be a man and admit when you screw up....

"dontcha think?"

[Battleborne]

why would I deny that I am a retired Navy Commander with 25 years in uniform?

why do you avoid owning up for your own misstatements?

you cute little tirade about forward observers was dead wrong. You should be a man and admit when you screw up....

"dontcha think?"


I gave you my opinion based on real time experience...I'm sorry the Navy rarely got their hands dirty...well except... all respect to the Seals...worked with a few and they are super cool...Commander of Admin!

[maineman]

I got my hands pretty dirty in Lebanon.... and I can attest to the fact that there were no cowards in any of the UN OP's that stood duty in.

I was a surface warfare officer, by the way.... and never was very good at admin. But I could drop the anchor into a bucket every time.

[Battleborne]

I got my hands pretty dirty in Lebanon.... and I can attest to the fact that there were no cowards in any of the UN OP's that stood duty in.

I was a surface warfare officer, by the way.... and never was very good at admin. But I could drop the anchor into a bucket every time.



Fair enough...generally speaking the UN is a bogus organization that should be abolished....I feel sorry for any of our US troops that have to put on the sick UN symbol...that would really be embarrassing...glad I was never asked...I would have been in real trouble!

[maineman]

I actually wore the UN insignia with pride..... so did the 35 other American officers who served in UNTSO with me. We were an elite group.

[Battleborne]

I actually wore the UN insignia with pride..... so did the 35 other American officers who served in UNTSO with me. We were an elite group.



I am a Bolton fan...lol... He is well aware of the Wes Clarke fiasco in Bosnia....orchestrated by non other than Madeline Halfbright!

[OrnotBitwise]

I am a Bolton fan...lol... He is well aware of the Wes Clarke fiasco in Bosnia....orchestrated by non other than Madeline Halfbright!
Kiss your boy goodbye: we can stick a fork in him come January. Ain't nobody likes that son no more.

[maineman]

the UN Truce Supervision Organization has been around since the birth of the state of Israel.... spanning many administrations... and supported by them all.

[Battleborne]

Kiss your boy goodbye: we can stick a fork in him come January. Ain't nobody likes that son no more.



His entire mission is to bring down the UN...enjoy your cheerleading though!

[Battleborne]

the UN Truce Supervision Organization has been around since the birth of the state of Israel.... spanning many administrations... and supported by them all.


Come up to speed this is 2006 the UN Mission was okay back in 1947...now they are nothing more than a front for socialism or to be blunt Communism...They are Akin to the ACLU!

[OrnotBitwise]

His entire mission is to bring down the UN...enjoy your cheerleading though!
Given my choice between BushCo and the U.N., I'll take the U.N. every time.

Get used to it, boyo. Far from being the irrelevancy that the neo-cons tried so desperately to make it, the U.N. has survived intact. It is the nucleus of the End . . . of your way of life. Thank the gods!

:tongout:

[Battleborne]

Given my choice between BushCo and the U.N., I'll take the U.N. every time.

Get used to it, boyo. Far from being the irrelevancy that the neo-cons tried so desperately to make it, the U.N. has survived intact. It is the nucleus of the End . . . of your way of life. Thank the gods!

:tongout:


Bison Breath....ya have no idea what is comming down the pike...enjoy the cheerleading though!:rolleyes:

[maineman]

Come up to speed this is 2006 the UN Mission was okay back in 1947...now they are nothing more than a front for socialism or to be blunt Communism...They are Akin to the ACLU!

what about the UNTSO Palestine mission is any less valid today than it was in 1948? Do you care to discuss this seriously, or will it just be oneliners from your open mike night skit at the comedy club?

[Battleborne]

what about the UNTSO Palestine mission is any less valid today than it was in 1948? Do you care to discuss this seriously, or will it just be oneliners from your open mike night skit at the comedy club?



Ya give me a two liner then chastize me for my one and two liners! Okay here we go...I do not have faith in the aforementioned peace proposal...it is still not working 1948 forward...and it will never work....Palestine is not I repeat not a ligitiment Government much less a country...Jordan threw out the bum's as did Egypt and Lebanon...let them bring their people home and give them jobs and identity...Israel reclaimed their country in 1948 it was taken away by Islam... then after WWII the agreement was made to give them back their country...repatriation from Hitlers abomination! Palestine would do better to address their grievance with Jordan,Egypt and Lebanon...imho

[maineman]

the mission of UNTSO Palestine has absolutely nothing to do with a palestinian state. It has to do with monitoring the protection of the state of Israel. And the territory of the state of Israel has been expanded by wartime acquisitions.... and the legal residents of those territories have some rights to self determination, don't you think?

[Battleborne]

the mission of UNTSO Palestine has absolutely nothing to do with a palestinian state. It has to do with monitoring the protection of the state of Israel. And the territory of the state of Israel has been expanded by wartime acquisitions.... and the legal residents of those territories have some rights to self determination, don't you think?


Excuse me but then what is the mission protecting if not the State of Israel...and the removal of the Bastardized State called Palistine? This has everything to do with the Palistine State...! I gave you my opinion as to how to solve the issue...Talk to Egypt,Jordan and Lebanon let them resolve the issue of them throwing out the so called Palestinians...Let Israel reclaim their territories that the Palestinians are occupying...send the Palestinians back to Egypt,Jordan and Lebanon give them jobs and a Identity...simple really!

[OrnotBitwise]

Bison Breath....ya have no idea what is comming down the pike...enjoy the cheerleading though!:rolleyes:
I think you need to get back to the Idaho compound and hunker down. The End is Nigh! Canadian socialism is spreading south and the ZOG is set to hand over our God-given sovereignty to the U.N. as soon as Congress turns coat!

[Battleborne]

I think you need to get back to the Idaho compound and hunker down. The End is Nigh! Canadian socialism is spreading south and the ZOG is set to hand over our God-given sovereignty to the U.N. as soon as Congress turns coat!



Sorry not a potato farmer...and I do just fine in my ultra conservative little town...thank you very much!

[maineman]

Excuse me but then what is the mission protecting if not the State of Israel...and the removal of the Bastardized State called Palistine? This has everything to do with the Palistine State...! I gave you my opinion as to how to solve the issue...Talk to Egypt,Jordan and Lebanon let them resolve the issue of them throwing out the so called Palestinians...Let Israel reclaim their territories that the Palestinians are occupying...send the Palestinians back to Egypt,Jordan and Lebanon give them jobs and a Identity...simple really!

the mission of UNTSO Palestine has nothing to do with the possible establishment of an independent Palestinian state. That is just a fact. It is also a fact that the west bank of the jordan river, the gaza strip, east jerusalem and the golan heights were all acquired by Israel after the creation of the state of Israel during conflicts. All of those areas have inhabitants who were not Israeli citizens nor living in Israeli territory until Israel captured the ground on which they lived. Those people in those areas have rights that have been withheld from them. That is also a fact.

[Battleborne]

the mission of UNTSO Palestine has nothing to do with the possible establishment of an independent Palestinian state. That is just a fact. It is also a fact that the west bank of the jordan river, the gaza strip, east jerusalem and the golan heights were all acquired by Israel after the creation of the state of Israel during conflicts. All of those areas have inhabitants who were not Israeli citizens nor living in Israeli territory until Israel captured the ground on which they lived. Those people in those areas have rights that have been withheld from them. That is also a fact.


Since you obviously missed the drift...Think 'PLO'...not the indiginous people sharing land with the Israelites!

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

All of those areas have inhabitants who were not Israeli citizens nor living in Israeli territory until Israel captured the ground on which they lived.

And why was this land captured? Was it because the mean, aggressive, greedy Jews, just couldn't be content with what they had? I don't think so. Who was to blame for Israel capturing this land, Maine?

[AnyOldIron]

Let Israel reclaim their territories that the Palestinians are occupying...

You have the words Israel and Palestine the wrong way round.

Israel is an artificial state, imposed on the tribal people of Palestine by the British because of Israeli terrorism against British troops and Arab locals.

Israel has then gone on a Hitleresque 'breathing space' occupation program, whilst being cheered on by moronic hypocrits in the west such as yourself. They have ghettoised the Palestinian people (echoes of the Jewish ghettoes in Eastern Europe in the 1930's.) and brutalised them.

Today they use terrorism (targeting civilians for political gain) using the euthemism of calling their terrorism 'defence'.

[AnyOldIron]

And why was this land captured? Was it because the mean, aggressive, greedy Jews, just couldn't be content with what they had? I don't think so. Who was to blame for Israel capturing this land, Maine?

Israel. If a nation conquers land from another, do they get to keep it?

Did the Germans keep Poland?

The truth is, the State of Israel was imposed on the Arab people by the British in the face of Israeli terrorism and a world community impinged by guilt over WWII.

Since then, the Israelis have, with the exception of extermination camps, pretty much acted as the Germans did to them.

[AnyOldIron]

my ultra conservative little town

A whole town full of self-important, self-righteous, morality imposing, anal fat heads....

Sounds like the Christian hell to me....

[AnyOldIron]

golan heights were all acquired by Israel

Not acquired, occupied.

[maineman]

Since you obviously missed the drift...Think 'PLO'...not the indiginous people sharing land with the Israelites!

and YOU obviously missed the drift.... what does the PLO have to do with the mission of UNTSO Palestine? And...fyi.... they are not called "Israelites" anymore...that is strictlya biblical term. Israelis is correct. And I find it quaint of you to refer to the people native to the Golan, Gaza, West Bank, and East Jerusalem as "sharing land" with Israelis. They are residents of captured territory and they do not have citizenship rights.... and you seem to feel that, somehow, that is not the problem of the occupying nation (Israel) but the problem of the nation from whom the land was seized? How the fuck does THAT work?


did you pick up all your knowledge of the area from a fucking comic book?

[maineman]

All of those areas have inhabitants who were not Israeli citizens nor living in Israeli territory until Israel captured the ground on which they lived.

And why was this land captured? Was it because the mean, aggressive, greedy Jews, just couldn't be content with what they had? I don't think so. Who was to blame for Israel capturing this land, Maine?


who is to BLAME for Israel's military successes? What a ridiculous question. the fact is: Israel occupies territory that it won in battle. The residents of those lands - the Golan Heights, The West Bank, The Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem - have not been given any rights as citizens. The question is: who is to blame for THAT? And an even better question is: what is to be DONE about it?

[Battleborne]

Let Israel reclaim their territories that the Palestinians are occupying...

You have the words Israel and Palestine the wrong way round.

Israel is an artificial state, imposed on the tribal people of Palestine by the British because of Israeli terrorism against British troops and Arab locals.

Israel has then gone on a Hitleresque 'breathing space' occupation program, whilst being cheered on by moronic hypocrits in the west such as yourself. They have ghettoised the Palestinian people (echoes of the Jewish ghettoes in Eastern Europe in the 1930's.) and brutalised them.

Today they use terrorism (targeting civilians for political gain) using the euthemism of calling their terrorism 'defence'.



Humm...If I remember correctly not too long ago Israel removed it's people from a little track of land that they had cultivated and was clean and producing income...when the Palestinians took over the land and buildings they gutted them and made the area a slum...I think you have it backwards!

[maineman]

apples and oranges..... you really need to find some other topic battleweary..... the middle east is NOT your forte!

[Battleborne]

and YOU obviously missed the drift.... what does the PLO have to do with the mission of UNTSO Palestine? And...fyi.... they are not called "Israelites" anymore...that is strictlya biblical term. Israelis is correct. And I find it quaint of you to refer to the people native to the Golan, Gaza, West Bank, and East Jerusalem as "sharing land" with Israelis. They are residents of captured territory and they do not have citizenship rights.... and you seem to feel that, somehow, that is not the problem of the occupying nation (Israel) but the problem of the nation from whom the land was seized? How the fuck does THAT work?


eh' you are losing it Commander...your language skills have reverted to the Liberal mantra...lol:rolleyes:

did you pick up all your knowledge of the area from a fucking comic book? [ vainman strikes again]

[Battleborne]

apples and oranges..... you really need to find some other topic battleweary..... the middle east is NOT your forte!


Commander! You my friend were outta service in the area while I was working counter terrorism...up until my early retirement 1986....baa hum bug...vainman!

[maineman]

I would not brag about a resume that has left you so short of real understanding about the region - you may have been involved in counter terrorism stateside, but your knowledge of the middle east is fragmented at best and grossly inadequate and inaccurate at worst....from your ridiculous AQ - Ottoman analogies to your suggestions that UN military observers have anything in common with US Army forward observers.... you are the poster child for the aphorism: A little knowledge is dangerous.

[maineman]

eh' you are losing it Commander...your language skills have reverted to the Liberal mantra...lol

the guy who uses the term "Israelites" in a modern day context is lecturing ME about language skills....

And beyond that, address my the points I addressed. Tell me how the fact that the residents of the Golan, Gaza and the West Bank do not have civil citizenship rights is somehow the fault of Syria, Egypt or Jordan

[Battleborne]

eh' you are losing it Commander...your language skills have reverted to the Liberal mantra...lol

the guy who uses the term "Israelites" in a modern day context is lecturing ME about language skills....

And beyond that, address my the points I addressed. Tell me how the fact that the residents of the Golan, Gaza and the West Bank do not have civil citizenship rights is somehow the fault of Syria, Egypt or Jordan


Personally I really do not care how you feel about my Intelligence analogy...My boss at the time incorporated it into the overall plan to fight terrorism...and my friend he was way above your grade and experience...as for the observer comment..I addressed another poster who just said 'observer' and for the Egypt,Jordan,Lebanon comment I was referring to these countries who threw out their Palestinian brothers..."PLO" who migrated to the lands where Israel and the other indiginoius people were working out their differences...I suggested that these countries take back their brothers in arms and give them jobs and a identity this would solve the issue of poverty and a home state for them...again really simple like you vainman!

[maineman]

every palestinian has roots in palestine, not egypt, jordan or syria. the problem is only exacerbated by Israel occupying even more territory.

Your boss -regardless of paygrade - was an idiot if he believed that Al Qaeda was merely an extension of the Ottoman empire, and if he believed that the Ottoman empire brought Islam to Egypt, he would seem to be almost "Brownie-esque" in his ineptitude.

[maineman]

or maybe it wasn't your boss...maybe you just got confused.... that would make sense.... and the comment from the other poster referrring to UN observers was made in context of the Lebanon situation. the mistake was yours, not his. Be a big boy and just admit it.

[Battleborne]

or maybe it wasn't your boss...maybe you just got confused.... that would make sense.... and the comment from the other poster referrring to UN observers was made in context of the Lebanon situation. the mistake was yours, not his. Be a big boy and just admit it.


You be a 'big boy' and admit you are the one who made the mistake...do they teach spin at the Naval Academy...or did you learn it downtown on leave?
I am done addressing this issue with you Sir Polywog!

[maineman]

how in the world did I make a mistake about the role of UN observer...which I actually have done? YOuwere the one who said that their job did not allow them the opportunity to leave when hostilities engulfed them, when in fact it requires it.... you were the one who called them cowards, when you had no knowledge of what they did.... including the four who died at their post at EL Khiam.... And I can understand why you might be done... I think it's time to stick a fork in you, too!

[Battleborne]

'Heres what Bush should do about Iraq'...nothing absolutely nothing...turn it over to the Dems and let them show us how it should have been done...this will be entertaining to say the least...I can see all the cat fights already...:cof1:

[maineman]

unfortunately, he is still the CinC.... and unless he wants to resign, he really ought to try to do his job, don't you think?

[uscitizen]

Damn! Battle sounds like a surrender monkey disavowing any responsibility for his actions....

[Battleborne]

Damn! Battle sounds like a surrender monkey disavowing any responsibility for his actions....



Just shifting the burden to the big mouths...and the responsibility goes back to Jane (Hanoi)Fonda...Lt.Kerry and now turn coat Murtha...the problem lies with those who unknowingly or knowingly support the enemy and cause the fight to escalate! Nows your chance to show us morons how it should be done...put up or shut up...I love that cliche'

[uscitizen]

No you got it wrong there Custer. This is Bush and his supporters war, plain and simple.
I know some weak assed dems in congress went along out of fear or pack mentality. And I will do all I can to se thay are not voted back into office.

[Battleborne]

No you got it wrong there Custer. This is Bush and his supporters war, plain and simple.
I know some weak assed dems in congress went along out of fear or pack mentality. And I will do all I can to se thay are not voted back into office.



LOL...well I did serve with the reborne 7th Air Cav...Custers old command...but hey they kicked butt at A-Valley saved the Frenches all the embarrassment of their earlier defeat there! And we are saving y'all's butts from defeat once again...Frenchie!

[Cypress]

'Heres what Bush should do about Iraq'...nothing absolutely nothing...turn it over to the Dems and let them show us how it should have been done...this will be entertaining to say the least...I can see all the cat fights already...:cof1:

Then you agree that we have to impeach Bush and Cheney, drive them out, and make Pelosi the C-in-C. Congress has no authority to execute the war.

[Battleborne]

and the 7th Cavs theme song is "Mr.Custer" loved the humor in that song!

[Battleborne]

Then you agree that we have to impeach Bush and Cheney, drive them out, and make Pelosi the C-in-C. Congress has no authority to execute the war.



I think Murtha and Pelosi should be impeached!

[Battleborne]

Then you agree that we have to impeach Bush and Cheney, drive them out, and make Pelosi the C-in-C. Congress has no authority to execute the war.


Only congress can declare a war...geez...back to political Science 101 with ya!

[uscitizen]

Execute and Declare....more than slightly different actions....

[Cypress]

Only congress can declare a war...geez...back to political Science 101 with ya!


Nice way to dodge the question. You know exactly what I meant.

You said Democrats should take over the handling - execution - of the war. That only happens if Bush and Cheney are impeached or resign.

Which do you want: impeachment or resignation?

[Battleborne]

Nice way to dodge the question. You know exactly what I meant.

You said Democrats should take over the handling - execution - of the war. That only happens if Bush and Cheney are impeached or resign.

Which do you want: impeachment or resignation?



Well except in the case of Pelosi and Murtha...they will be outta office in less than two years...and then y'all can show us how to do it!;)

[Cypress]

whatever. If you're not going to answer the question Toby, I'm onto a another thread.

[Battleborne]

whatever. If you're not going to answer the question Toby, I'm onto a another thread.



I answered your question...you just did not like the answer!:cof1:

[maineman]

Well except in the case of Pelosi and Murtha...they will be outta office in less than two years...and then y'all can show us how to do it!;)

so you are perfectly willing to have the incompetent boobs who have gotten us into this mess keep on keeping on for two more years?

my guess is that you don't have any children in uniform

[Battleborne]

so you are perfectly willing to have the incompetent boobs who have gotten us into this mess keep on keeping on for two more years?

my guess is that you don't have any children in uniform



I have two daughters who have two kids each...two grandsons have showed interest in going into the military...as well as one grandaughter...it would be their decision if they chose to...and I would support them!


As for your other comment Commander...as you chastized me in a earlier thread...you have no respect for your Commander in Chief? Never mind you are still mad about the 'don't ask don't tell' policy everything else is just armchair quarterbacking and differences of military opinion...and sorry to disappoint ya but I am afraid that GW and Cheney will finish their terms...I am no fan of Cheney but hey he was elected along with GW live with it!

[maineman]

I am not at all mad about don't ask don't tell...it was what it was....and it will change eventually, just like the armed forces integrated, they will accept the fact soon enough that you don't have to be straight to shoot straight.

I have ZERO respect for this president. He is, without a doubt, the worst CinC in my lifetime. Were I still on active duty, I cannot imagine how I could have remained so with this guy at the helm. I was able to carry on and do my job throughout the Reagan years even though I disagreed with his politidcal philosophy and I really disagreed with him tucking his tail between his legs and slinking away from Beirut like a coward after the marines were attacked, but Dubya is a quantum step worse...he is so incompetent, it approaches EVIL in its negative effects. I may very well have resigned my commission were I on active duty today.

And I have two sons 32, and 20 and a daughter, 18...and I have strongly indoctrinated all of them, since Bush's ascension to power, that they should NOT put themselves in a position to become cannon fodder in this idiot's wars.

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Nice way to dodge the question. You know exactly what I meant.

You said Democrats should take over the handling - execution - of the war. That only happens if Bush and Cheney are impeached or resign.

Which do you want: impeachment or resignation?

This is not so. The president can appoint anyone he wishes, to execute the war. Where is your source for this misconception, Prissy?

[Battleborne]

I am not at all mad about don't ask don't tell...it was what it was....and it will change eventually, just like the armed forces integrated, they will accept the fact soon enough that you don't have to be straight to shoot straight.

I have ZERO respect for this president. He is, without a doubt, the worst CinC in my lifetime. Were I still on active duty, I cannot imagine how I could have remained so with this guy at the helm. I was able to carry on and do my job throughout the Reagan years even though I disagreed with his politidcal philosophy and I really disagreed with him tucking his tail between his legs and slinking away from Beirut like a coward after the marines were attacked, but Dubya is a quantum step worse...he is so incompetent, it approaches EVIL in its negative effects. I may very well have resigned my commission were I on active duty today.

And I have two sons 32, and 20 and a daughter, 18...and I have strongly indoctrinated all of them, since Bush's ascension to power, that they should NOT put themselves in a position to become cannon fodder in this idiot's wars.


rate Bill Clinton,Al Gore and Madeline Halfbright...the Architecs of the Bosnia war?...which we are still bogged down in! They bombed the hell out of them(Christians) and put Islam back in the saddle...here we go again...Islam in Bosnia was the leftovers of the Ottoman Empire...bet your cheeks are squeezing about now!

[maineman]

well...when Bush appoints Nancy to execute this war, we'll see some positive changes.... do you think that will happen anytime soon, Dixie?

[maineman]

you really see the ottoman empire everywhere. are they hiding under you bed?

[Battleborne]

you really see the ottoman empire everywhere. are they hiding under you bed?



no but I think they are under yours...all I see in your diatribes is support for Islam...carry on bashing GW though...it makes you feel so important!

[maineman]

support for Islam? WTF????

OK battlebeaten....go back and find ONE quote from me that "supports Islam" in ANY way.

I'll wait.

[Battleborne]

support for Islam? WTF????

OK battlebeaten....go back and find ONE quote from me that "supports Islam" in ANY way.

I'll wait.



I just threw out the generalization of your tone in the debate on the war on terrorism...Israel/Lebanon conflict et al...kinda/sorta Palestine good...Israel bad tone! Y'all do it all the time... you generalize about conservatives and lump us all together...I just returned the favor...hows it feel?
:pke:

[maineman]

If you find that I have mischaracterized any of your positions, please feel free to call that error to my attention. I don't think I have done so to date, so maybe if you would return that favor, that would be a good thing.

[uscitizen]

My ottoman sits in front of easy chair.
How did the ever make an empire out of padded footstools anyway ?

[Battleborne]

My ottoman sits in front of easy chair.
How did the ever make an empire out of padded footstools anyway ?


Well if ya have a cute and adoring little lady who brings you beer and pizza...I suppose it could be classified as a 'Empire';)