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Jarod
08-25-2009, 12:05 PM
So are we as a nation willing to allow those who have no healthcare and no wealth die in the streets?

When a homeless man comes to a hospital with a curable form of phunumia, should we treat him or turn him away to die?

If we are to treat him... who should pay for that?

cawacko
08-25-2009, 12:06 PM
So are we as a nation willing to allow those who have no healthcare and no wealth die in the streets?

When a homeless man comes to a hospital with a curable form of phunumia, should we treat him or turn him away to die?

If we are to treat him... who should pay for that?

well either the tax payers or private donations pay for it now. What do you recommend?

Jarod
08-25-2009, 12:11 PM
well either the tax payers or private donations pay for it now. What do you recommend?

I recomend a system where we reconise that this is what is going to happen in our society and that we are not willing to allow such people to go untreated. Thus we create a set up where everyone is required to have basic health coverage or be taxed. That way when the time comes for an uninsured person to get basic treatment he/she has paid into the program. Instead of paying for these people by using cost shifting and making the insured pay, thus increasing insurance premiums... we deal with the problem proactivly and thus it costs less.

Jarod
08-25-2009, 12:11 PM
Right now the tax payers are paying for it. We pay more than we would if basic coverage were mandated.

PostmodernProphet
08-25-2009, 12:18 PM
So are we as a nation willing to allow those who have no healthcare and no wealth die in the streets?

When a homeless man comes to a hospital with a curable form of phunumia, should we treat him or turn him away to die?

If we are to treat him... who should pay for that?

since the proposed health care bill has a $5000 deductible, I am puzzled why you think this question has relevance.....if we pass this montrosity, who is going to pay for the homeless man?.....

Jarod
08-25-2009, 12:19 PM
since the proposed health care bill has a $5000 deductible, I am puzzled why you think this question has relevance.....if we pass this montrosity, who is going to pay for the homeless man?.....

I was/am not aware of a $5000 deductable. But still that would work when you consider the cost of a night in the hospital. The cost of an MRI or a round of chemotherapy.

uscitizen
08-25-2009, 05:04 PM
Many company provided health care plans now have a 5K deductable with 20% copay after that. It sucks but can keep you from losing everything in a major health crisis.

tinfoil
08-25-2009, 05:47 PM
I was/am not aware of a $5000 deductable. But still that would work when you consider the cost of a night in the hospital. The cost of an MRI or a round of chemotherapy.


what an *****. Try learning the details of the plan before supporting it, *******

Cancel 2018. 3
08-25-2009, 06:22 PM
what an *****. Try learning the details of the plan before supporting it, *******

no kidding

WinterBorn
08-25-2009, 07:07 PM
Life is sacred? Says who?

We send young men & women to die in foreign countries and do not call it sacriledge.

We have all manner of activities, foods, food additives, drugs, and other things that we know shorten our lives, and yet this is not seen as sacriledge.


Who says life is sacred? We all die. If we were suddenly immortal we would have a huge problem with overpopulation in short order.

Everything that lives will die. It is a fundamental premise of our world.

PostmodernProphet
08-25-2009, 07:08 PM
I was/am not aware of a $5000 deductable. But still that would work when you consider the cost of a night in the hospital. The cost of an MRI or a round of chemotherapy.

so your answer to the homeless guy who needs medical care is just, "a $5000 deductible will still work, just pay it".......I thought life was sacred.....how about we dump the parts of the plan that benefit you and we make a plan that helps the homeless guy?.....

uscitizen
08-25-2009, 07:09 PM
Birth is the single cause of death.

uscitizen
08-25-2009, 07:10 PM
so your answer to the homeless guy who needs medical care is just, "a $5000 deductible will still work, just pay it".......

the chronically homeless usually have mental issues that will prevent them from even seeking medical help.

PostmodernProphet
08-25-2009, 07:53 PM
Birth is the single cause of death.

some of us get some free time in between.....

PostmodernProphet
08-25-2009, 07:55 PM
the chronically homeless usually have mental issues that will prevent them from even seeking medical help.

????....I would have sworn they were among those 47 million Americans we are writing the health care bill to help......next I suppose you'll tell me they aren't going to be fined for not having health care under the proposed bill.......

uscitizen
08-25-2009, 09:04 PM
????....I would have sworn they were among those 47 million Americans we are writing the health care bill to help......next I suppose you'll tell me they aren't going to be fined for not having health care under the proposed bill.......

How can they? They do not have an address.
They do not exist in the records.

Jarod
08-26-2009, 06:50 AM
what an *****. Try learning the details of the plan before supporting it, *******

You show me the $5,000 deductable!!! You are such a <bad word>!

Jarod
08-26-2009, 06:52 AM
so your answer to the homeless guy who needs medical care is just, "a $5000 deductible will still work, just pay it".......I thought life was sacred.....how about we dump the parts of the plan that benefit you and we make a plan that helps the homeless guy?.....

No, because this guy will get the treatment dispite the fact that he cannot pay the $5000 deductable. Its just that once he rises above the $5000 mark he will be covered. It will limit the hospital and doctors liability to $5000.

cancel2 2022
08-26-2009, 07:13 AM
So are we as a nation willing to allow those who have no healthcare and no wealth die in the streets?

When a homeless man comes to a hospital with a curable form of phunumia, should we treat him or turn him away to die?

If we are to treat him... who should pay for that?

I agree with the gist of your post and congratulate you on your novel spelling of pneumonia.

Jarod
08-26-2009, 07:21 AM
I agree with the gist of your post and congratulate you on your novel spelling of pneumonia.

Thanks Tom.... and I am happy to be the purvayor of novel spelling attempts!

PostmodernProphet
08-26-2009, 08:10 AM
No, because this guy will get the treatment dispite the fact that he cannot pay the $5000 deductable. Its just that once he rises above the $5000 mark he will be covered. It will limit the hospital and doctors liability to $5000.

it was lame in the extreme to give me negative rep for my comment....you seem to miss the point that what you describe above is exactly what we have now, he will get the treatment despite the fact he cannot pay....yet his circumstances are exactly the reason the left argues we MUST have health care reform.....the fact that the reform they push doesn't solve his problem underscores the fact that the reform they are pushing isn't for him, it is for themselves.....

Jarod
08-26-2009, 08:43 AM
it was lame in the extreme to give me negative rep for my comment....you seem to miss the point that what you describe above is exactly what we have now, he will get the treatment despite the fact he cannot pay....yet his circumstances are exactly the reason the left argues we MUST have health care reform.....the fact that the reform they push doesn't solve his problem underscores the fact that the reform they are pushing isn't for him, it is for themselves.....

Except it will have a $5000 cap, according to you.

It was not lame, when you make comments that are not related to the discussion to try to hide the ball, Ill make repution decisions.

PostmodernProphet
08-26-2009, 08:58 AM
Except it will have a $5000 cap, according to you.

It was not lame, when you make comments that are not related to the discussion to try to hide the ball, Ill make repution decisions.

????...as I recall, the discussion is "Life is sacred!, do we let the poor die?"....the claim is, we need health care reform because of the poor......my comment pointed out that the proposed reform does not help the poor.....how is that "not related" to the discussion?.....

Jarod
08-26-2009, 09:16 AM
????...as I recall, the discussion is "Life is sacred!, do we let the poor die?"....the claim is, we need health care reform because of the poor......my comment pointed out that the proposed reform does not help the poor.....how is that "not related" to the discussion?.....

Sure it does, it puts a cap on how much the system will be responsable for there care. You know better than to say that some hospital will say... Well, you dont have the $5000.00 deductable so sorry go out on the street to die.

Have you cited to me any place where this $5000.00 deductable exists?

Topspin
08-26-2009, 09:18 AM
this is sooo lame, you ambulance chasers are one of the biggest culprits in high medical cost. People in Canada say the mindset is no one has it in their thought process to sue dr's.

PostmodernProphet
08-26-2009, 09:48 AM
You know better than to say that some hospital will say... Well, you dont have the $5000.00 deductable so sorry go out on the street to die.

dude, that's my whole point....have you forgotten the title of this thread?....the liberal argument is that if we don't pass this health care plan the poor are going to die....



Have you cited to me any place where this $5000.00 deductable exists?

section 122 of the House bill, defining essential benefits and the limits of annual contribution for a single insured under the government option....page 29
http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

Hermes Thoth
08-26-2009, 11:37 AM
Life is sacred? Says who?

We send young men & women to die in foreign countries and do not call it sacriledge.

We have all manner of activities, foods, food additives, drugs, and other things that we know shorten our lives, and yet this is not seen as sacriledge.


Who says life is sacred? We all die. If we were suddenly immortal we would have a huge problem with overpopulation in short order.

Everything that lives will die. It is a fundamental premise of our world.

Here we have it ladies and gentleman, the ideology behind the current drive for government control of healthcare, so it can be withheld.


Winterborn really feels enlightened about himself.

WinterBorn
08-26-2009, 12:35 PM
Here we have it ladies and gentleman, the ideology behind the current drive for government control of healthcare, so it can be withheld.


Winterborn really feels enlightened about himself.

Here we have the refutation of the claim that life is sacred. Neither party claims that life is sacred until they want something.

I am not one of those who wants the government healthcare plan. I have argued against it in several threads.

But if you feel triumphant in proclaiming all this, go right ahead.

TuTu Monroe
08-26-2009, 01:12 PM
So are we as a nation willing to allow those who have no healthcare and no wealth die in the streets?

When a homeless man comes to a hospital with a curable form of phunumia, should we treat him or turn him away to die?

If we are to treat him... who should pay for that?

Hospitals cannot turn anyone away by law. The taxpayers pay for it.

Hermes Thoth
08-26-2009, 01:21 PM
Here we have the refutation of the claim that life is sacred.

That was your position.




Neither party claims that life is sacred until they want something.

Which is why both fascist nihilist parties should be abandoned by people of conscience.



I am not one of those who wants the government healthcare plan. I have argued against it in several threads.

But if you feel triumphant in proclaiming all this, go right ahead.

That's why the irony is so rich. a fascist, is a fascist , is a fascist.

Jarod
08-27-2009, 08:28 AM
this is sooo lame, you ambulance chasers are one of the biggest culprits in high medical cost. People in Canada say the mindset is no one has it in their thought process to sue dr's.

How do you support that statement?

Jarod
08-27-2009, 08:30 AM
Id think that anti-choicers would be all for this bill.

Require that life be brought into the world, but dont hold me responsable for the health of the poor ones.... THat does not make any sense?

PostmodernProphet
08-27-2009, 10:03 AM
Id think that anti-choicers would be all for this bill.

Require that life be brought into the world, but dont hold me responsable for the health of the poor ones.... THat does not make any sense?

???....the problem is making us responsible for the health care of those who aren't poor.....isn't that obvious to you yet?......the "poor" are merely an excuse......that can be seen by the failure of the proposed plan to address the needs of the poor.....

why doesn't the plan provide for 100% of the medical costs of those living in poverty?......why does the plan include $10billion dollars to shore up the UAW benefits plan?......why does the plan subsidize the premiums of people earning 300% of the poverty level?......why does the plan require every insurance policy sold to provide dental care for children under the age of 21?, isn't that a financial burden on an unmarried, childless 22 year old, just getting started in life?....

Jarod
08-27-2009, 12:24 PM
???....the problem is making us responsible for the health care of those who aren't poor.....isn't that obvious to you yet?......the "poor" are merely an excuse......that can be seen by the failure of the proposed plan to address the needs of the poor.....

why doesn't the plan provide for 100% of the medical costs of those living in poverty?......why does the plan include $10billion dollars to shore up the UAW benefits plan?......why does the plan subsidize the premiums of people earning 300% of the poverty level?......why does the plan require every insurance policy sold to provide dental care for children under the age of 21?, isn't that a financial burden on an unmarried, childless 22 year old, just getting started in life?....

The Plan does not do that. The plan acknoledges that ANYONE can get sick, and requires responsability from everyone for that fact. You can have a million dollars and if you get cancer and seek treatment... you will be broke before that treatment is done. The Kennedy Healthcare Plan will ensure that the cost for that treatment is spread out and that it is kept in check.

Pass Kennedy care now!

PostmodernProphet
08-27-2009, 01:09 PM
The Plan does not do that. The plan acknoledges that ANYONE can get sick, and requires responsability from everyone for that fact. You can have a million dollars and if you get cancer and seek treatment... you will be broke before that treatment is done. The Kennedy Healthcare Plan will ensure that the cost for that treatment is spread out and that it is kept in check.

Pass Kennedy care now!

did you notice that your post didn't answer any of the questions I asked?.....please try again, this time honestly.....

Hermes Thoth
08-27-2009, 01:10 PM
The Kennedy Healthcare Plan will ensure that the cost for that treatment is spread out and that it is kept in check.



And that old people are left to die.

Jarod
08-27-2009, 01:13 PM
And that old people are left to die.

How so?

Fish
08-29-2009, 08:53 AM
Life not sacred, thread over.

PostmodernProphet
08-29-2009, 06:06 PM
add Jarod to the list of liberals that run away from questions they can't answer.....

Epicurus
08-29-2009, 06:08 PM
Jarod, where did you go to law school?

I would fail out here if I spelled like you. Legal Writing is a required class.

Cancel5
08-29-2009, 06:10 PM
Jarod, where did you go to law school?

I would fail out here if I spelled like you. Legal Writing is a required class.
Spell check is my guess?

PostmodernProphet
08-29-2009, 06:10 PM
Jarod, where did you go to law school?

I would fail out here if I spelled like you. Legal Writing is a required class.

all I remember is reading about 300 pages a day....I went to Valparaiso....where are you at?.....

Cancel5
08-29-2009, 06:11 PM
all I remember is reading about 300 pages a day....I went to Valparaiso....where are you at?.....
Amazing, do you know your retention rate?

Epicurus
08-29-2009, 06:15 PM
all I remember is reading about 300 pages a day....I went to Valparaiso....where are you at?.....

I'm gonna put it here then delete it because I don't want that kind of personal info just hanging around, so don't quote my response. I'm at *****. I'm facing pretty much the same workload you describe. It's pretty overwhelming on the surface but if you just stay disciplined you can avoid getting behind. And for Froggie, we shed about 30% of our class of 206 by the end of the first year.

Cancel5
08-29-2009, 06:18 PM
Do you like the reading or is it mostly stuff that makes your head nod?

30%, but you will do well, hang in there, amigo!

Epicurus
08-29-2009, 06:22 PM
Do you like the reading or is it mostly stuff that makes your head nod?

30%, but you will do well, hang in there, amigo!

Depends on the subject. Civil Procedure and Criminal Law I don't mind, though I seem to be a minority opinion there with most of my classmates.

Torts, which all first-years seem to find endlessly fascinating, bores me to tears. Contracts is somewhere in the middle.

And thanks froggie. I think I would do a lot better if I just disabled my internet connection. I've spent a good part of today messing around on this forum and on facebook when I should have been writing this legal analysis due on monday.

Cancel5
08-29-2009, 06:24 PM
Depends on the subject. Civil Procedure and Criminal Law I don't mind, though I seem to be a minority opinion there with most of my classmates.

Torts, which all first-years seem to find endlessly fascinating, bores me to tears. Contracts is somewhere in the middle.

And thanks froggie. I think I would do a lot better if I just disabled my internet connection. I've spent a good part of today messing around on this forum and on facebook when I should have been writing this legal analysis due on monday.
Consider it your mindless duty to yourself. We all need to take a break and some times let off steam! Momma will jump on you if you are here too much!

PostmodernProphet
08-29-2009, 06:26 PM
Amazing, do you know your retention rate?

about one thread a day....

Cancel5
08-29-2009, 06:27 PM
about one thread a day....
WOW! I can't even do that!

PostmodernProphet
08-29-2009, 06:28 PM
Do you like the reading or is it mostly stuff that makes your head nod?



typical approach when I went (35 years ago) was to assign a half dozen cases, then require you to be able to distinguish them in class from a fact situation provided by the prof.....

Cancel5
08-29-2009, 06:30 PM
typical approach when I went (35 years ago) was to assign a half dozen cases, then require you to be able to distinguish them in class from a fact situation provided by the prof.....
I guess depending on the case it might be interesting.

Epicurus
08-29-2009, 06:31 PM
The basic mechanics of law school really haven't changed since the 19th century. You read cases rather than reading "the law", to be able to distinguish fact patterns, while professors attempt to play Socrates asking you a never-ending series of questions about hypotheticals.

Cancel5
08-29-2009, 06:32 PM
The basic mechanics of law school really haven't changed since the 19th century. You read cases rather than reading "the law", to be able to distinguish fact patterns, while professors attempt to play Socrates asking you a never-ending series of questions about hypotheticals.
No wonder you are so good on here.

Epicurus
08-29-2009, 06:36 PM
You're too kind.

It's sort of intense when you're in the line of fire in front of seventy of your classmates desperately praying you have the right answer. And of course even if you do, the professor doesn't commend you. They're just disappointed they didn't get to drag the torture out a little longer.

PostmodernProphet
08-29-2009, 06:39 PM
The basic mechanics of law school really haven't changed since the 19th century. You read cases rather than reading "the law", to be able to distinguish fact patterns, while professors attempt to play Socrates asking you a never-ending series of questions about hypotheticals.

I guess it hasn't changed then....the Socratic method was king when I went as well....I got the honors paper in both business law and criminal law....so I decided to specialize in representing businessmen who were crooks.....

PostmodernProphet
08-29-2009, 06:40 PM
It's sort of intense when you're in the line of fire in front of seventy of your classmates desperately praying you have the right answer.

lol, that hasn't changed either...if you got it right, the prof wouldn't be looking for the next person in line to try to answer it.....

Epicurus
08-29-2009, 06:41 PM
I guess it hasn't changed then....the Socratic method was king when I went as well....I got the honors paper in both business law and criminal law....so I decided to specialize in representing businessmen who were crooks.....

Haha nice. And I assume the honors paper is like getting the Book? Eg. Booking a class. If so, congrats. That is awesome.

PostmodernProphet
08-29-2009, 07:00 PM
Haha nice. And I assume the honors paper is like getting the Book? Eg. Booking a class. If so, congrats. That is awesome.

hmm, probably....highest grade on the final exam for a class, we did get a book, as I recall.....I don't remember reading it though..../grin....