snatching defeat from the jaws of victory

[Don Quixote]

are dems ready to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory regarding health care...again

good grief, when will bho start cracking the whip over the congressional dems

[Damocles]

It's the Senate that remains recalcitrant, with the whip reporting that there is no way that "government option" will pass in the Senate, they don't have the votes, they never have and never will.

Whatever passes will not be the HR 3200 (or whatever number it is) that we seem to incessantly argue about here.

This leads BHO to suggest that he would rather sign some legislation even if it doesn't have this... which leads the Congressional Ds to say they won't vote for it....

Which all leads to even Dennis Kucinich to come out against the bill.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

It's the Senate that remains recalcitrant, with the whip reporting that there is no way that "government option" will pass in the Senate, they don't have the votes, they never have and never will.

Reconciliation.

[Damocles]

Reconciliation.
You can only have "reconciliation" with a bill that pays for itself within 6 years, the CBO reports that this bill will not and will add much to the deficit. This bill is not qualified for "reconciliation".

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Whatever passes will not be the HR 3200 (or whatever number it is) that we seem to incessantly argue about here.

This leads BHO to suggest that he would rather sign some legislation even if it doesn't have this... which leads the Congressional Ds to say they won't vote for it....

Which all leads to even Dennis Kucinich to come out against the bill.

I honestly think that there's no way a universal medicare scheme could've even gotten the thrashing that this complicated scheme has.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

You can only have "reconciliation" with a bill that pays for itself within 6 years, the CBO reports that this bill will not and will add much to the deficit. This bill is not qualified for "reconciliation".

If it adds to the deficit, changes will be made. Reconciliation is what should happen. If the rules for reconciliation do not allow it, then the rules can be changed easily by simple majority.

[Damocles]

I honestly think that there's no way a universal medicare scheme could've even gotten the thrashing that this complicated scheme has.
I agree with that... It would get thrashed though. It's silly to have a Congressman actually sneering at the idea of reading such important legislation because he won't have two lawyers to help him interpret it, then expect it not to have some problems getting past the electorate...

[Cancel5]

Reconciliation.
reconnoiter

[Damocles]

If it adds to the deficit, changes will be made. Reconciliation is what should happen. If the rules for reconciliation do not allow it, then the rules can be changed easily by simple majority.
Please, how many times have we heard how non-partisan the CBO was when Bush was in office and they reported negatively on him?

[Damocles]

If it adds to the deficit, changes will be made. Reconciliation is what should happen. If the rules for reconciliation do not allow it, then the rules can be changed easily by simple majority.
And still according to the Whip they don't have the votes. Seriously. I don't think you are going to be able to get a bill with a "government option" to be swallowed by the Senate.

Making changes to the reconciliation rules would be foolish, such changes can be exploited later by a different political party. No matter how many times you may wish it, permanent majorities don't exist.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

And still according to the Whip they don't have the votes. Seriously. I don't think you are going to be able to get a bill with a "government option" to be swallowed by the Senate.

There's no way a bill without a government option is going to be swallowed by the senate. It would be a massive handout to insurance companies. If anything, it would be more difficult to pass. The Republicans are going to declare anything we write to be socialism no matter what (like they are now doing with co-ops), and I hope the Democrats realize that.


Making changes to the reconciliation rules would be foolish, such changes can be exploited later by a different political party. No matter how many times you may wish it, permanent majorities don't exist.

I'm willing to give the Republican party more power in the future to pass the most important liberal reform possible.

[Damocles]

There's no way a bill without a government option is going to be swallowed by the senate. It would be a massive handout to insurance companies. If anything, it would be more difficult to pass. The Republicans are going to declare anything we write to be socialism no matter what (like they are now doing with co-ops), and I hope the Democrats realize that.



I'm willing to give the Republican party more power in the future to pass the most important liberal reform possible.
It already is, they are working on a compromise that can pass in the Senate, it will not have a "government option" even if you think it is important.

I found Kucinich's arguments on Napolitano's radio show rather interesting as well. It may have a more difficult time than you think even in Congress. Plus, Congresspersons are looking to the next election and this pile of doo isn't going to get them hired. If they force unpopular legislation it will go negatively for them in the next election.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

If we do not pass anything, the Republicans are going to win in 2010. The Republicans know that. That's why they lie. That's why they don't care that the path they are taking American down is both disastrous and immoral. These moderate Democrats need to vote for it, or else they're going to be the ones losing their seats.

[Damocles]

If we do not pass anything, the Republicans are going to win in 2010. The Republicans know that. That's why they lie. That's why they don't care that the path they are taking American down is both disastrous and immoral. These moderate Democrats need to vote for it, or else they're going to be the ones losing their seats.
Then I guess you better start calling all the Moderate Ds.. because the reality is they'll be looking at their constituents' wishes and voting for their jobs.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

It already is, they are working on a compromise that can pass in the Senate, it will not have a "government option" even if you think it is important.

Not having the public option is going to damage the legislation a lot more than having it. If it has the public option, it can at least pass through reconcilliation. Without the public option, the progressive base will abandon it, and I doubt it gets thirty votes if it's even brought to floor.


I found Kucinich's arguments on Napolitano's radio show rather interesting as well. It may have a more difficult time than you think even in Congress. Plus, Congresspersons are looking to the next election and this pile of doo isn't going to get them hired. If they force unpopular legislation it will go negatively for them in the next election.

You're a pile of doo.

Not passing the legislation is what would lose them the election. The Democrats will be in dissarray, and their period of rule will rightly be over. The blue dogs who voted for this will be thanked by conservatard constiuents by voting for the Republitards they wanted all along anyway. And hopefully they don't get elected back, and we build the next coalition with real Democrats. We don't need the trash in the center of the country; the demographics of this country are changing to the point it's going to be impossible for the Republicans to compete with the decade.

[Damocles]

Personally I think that the Rs will gain either way, people do not like this no-check government where too many pieces of far-reaching legislation are attempted or have passed without any constituent input.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Then I guess you better start calling all the Moderate Ds.. because the reality is they'll be looking at their constituents' wishes and voting for their jobs.

The moderate D's are the ones in the swing seats. When they destroy our voter base, they're going to be the ones to pay.

[Damocles]

Not having the public option is going to damage the legislation a lot more than having it. If it has the public option, it can at least pass through reconcilliation. Without the public option, the progressive base will abandon it, and I doubt it gets thirty votes if it's even brought to floor.



You're a pile of doo.

Not passing the legislation is what would lose them the election. The Democrats will be in dissarray, and their period of rule will rightly be over. The blue dogs who voted for this will be thanked by conservatard constiuents by voting for the Republitards they wanted all along anyway. And hopefully they don't get elected back, and we build the next coalition with real Democrats. We don't need the trash in the center of the country; the demographics of this country are changing to the point it's going to be impossible for the Republicans to compete with the decade.
You have convinced yourself that the majority feel like you, that is always a mistake. The majority are fickle and change very often because of the squishy middle that moves with emotion rather than reason.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

You have convinced yourself that the majority feel like you, that is always a mistake. The majority are fickle and change very often because of the squishy middle that moves with emotion rather than reason.

Exactly damo. It's not about the positions you hold. It's about looking strong, it's about looking like the party with the ideas. It's about having the nads, and Democrats have never had nads. Their only ideology is compromise. Your own party defeating itself looks stupid; Democrats learned this in 1993 (although losing as badly as in 1994 would be a pretty amazing result).

If the bill passes and goes into action, people will at least see it isn't the monster that you guys painted it as, and the Republican attack ads will seem absurd. If it doesn't pass, you're part of the party that supported the monster that Republicans invented with their imagination. Whether or not you voted for it.

[Damocles]

Exactly damo. It's not about the positions you hold. It's about looking strong, it's about looking like the party with the ideas. It's about having the nads, and Democrats have never had nads. Their only ideology is compromise. Your own party defeating itself looks stupid; Democrats learned this in 1993 (although losing as badly as in 1994 would be a pretty amazing result).

If the bill passes and goes into action, people will at least see it isn't the monster that you guys painted it as, and the Republican attack ads will seem absurd. If it doesn't pass, you're part of the party that supported the monster that Republicans invented with their imagination.
This bill will not go into action for more than 5 years. Your own argument fails because you didn't read the legislation. If they pass this legislation right before the election cycle, it will remain one of the largest "oops" moments for a political party talked about for a long time to come. I'm cool with that. I hope all the Ds in Congress believe, like you do, that ignoring what their constituency tells them is the way to "win" when it is done right at the opening of an election cycle...

[Don Quixote]

This bill will not go into action for more than 5 years. Your own argument fails because you didn't read the legislation. If they pass this legislation right before the election cycle, it will remain one of the largest "oops" moments for a political party talked about for a long time to come. I'm cool with that. I hope all the Ds in Congress believe, like you do, that ignoring what their constituency tells them is the way to "win" when it is done right at the opening of an election cycle...

hence my original post

how about a federal not state and federal version of medicaid

or a public option without gender bias, without refusing people that get sick too often or too much and refusing because of preexisting conditions or requiring insurance companies to do the aforementioned

[FUCK THE POLICE]

This bill will not go into action for more than 5 years. Your own argument fails because you didn't read the legislation. If they pass this legislation right before the election cycle, it will remain one of the largest "oops" moments for a political party talked about for a long time to come. I'm cool with that. I hope all the Ds in Congress believe, like you do, that ignoring what their constituency tells them is the way to "win" when it is done right at the opening of an election cycle...

The town hall mob is not our constituency.

[Damocles]

hence my original post

how about a federal not state and federal version of medicaid

or a public option without gender bias, without refusing people that get sick too often or too much and refusing because of preexisting conditions or requiring insurance companies to do the aforementioned
I'm all for a safety net system based on need that has a graduated form of premium payment until you reach a certain level. Fill the doughnut hole then attack the actual cost issue and come up with an actual solution that doesn't involve the government supposedly "competing" with private businesses.

Centralize regulations so that it is possible for smaller insurance companies to compete across the nation.. that is at least one step we can generally agree on.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

hence my original post

how about a federal not state and federal version of medicaid

or a public option without gender bias, without refusing people that get sick too often or too much and refusing because of preexisting conditions or requiring insurance companies to do the aforementioned

One obvious advantage of expanding medicare to everybody would be that people already understand and don't fear the program. People would be able to keep their same doctor; they'd just be paying much less in taxes for healthcare than they were for insurance premiums, and they'd have a higher standard of care. Of course, any minor change you made would be hyperbolized to epic proportions, so you'd still be treading on thin water.

[Don Quixote]

The town hall mob is not our constituency.

i would hope not

[Damocles]

The town hall mob is not our constituency.
Nor is it the whole of those unsatisfied, just those more vocal. I don't pretend that they are the whole of the constituency, but they are a sign of the dissatisfaction and distrust that people have for leaders that are requested to vote on bills of such magnitude without having a complete knowledge or constituent input.

[Don Quixote]

I'm all for a safety net system based on need that has a graduated form of premium payment until you reach a certain level. Fill the doughnut hole then attack the actual cost issue and come up with an actual solution that doesn't involve the government supposedly "competing" with private businesses.

Centralize regulations so that it is possible for smaller insurance companies to compete across the nation.. that is at least one step we can generally agree on.

while i am covered by medicare, the number of insurance companies that take medicare are limited to two because i live in a mainly suburban to rural area (santa barbara county, calif) the population density is just to low and too heavily elderly...or farming and students

most of the rest are mainly service/tourist industry with a scattering of aerospace/military

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

There's no way a bill without a government option is going to be swallowed by the senate. It would be a massive handout to insurance companies. .

But doing nothing is not an option.:rolleyes:

See how stupid your party is?

[PostmodernProphet]

while i am covered by medicare, the number of insurance companies that take medicare are limited to two

I am puzzled by this statement.....what do you mean by insurance companies "taking" medicare?....do you mean administer it?....here in Michigan medicare is administered by BC/BS, but I can't figure a state would have two different companies administering it, that would be a major confusion.....

[Don Quixote]

I am puzzled by this statement.....what do you mean by insurance companies "taking" medicare?....do you mean administer it?....here in Michigan medicare is administered by BC/BS, but I can't figure a state would have two different companies administering it, that would be a major confusion.....

in ca there are several insurance companies that administer medicare

they like the part 'd' pharma option...very profitable

[Cypress]

are dems ready to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory regarding health care...again

good grief, when will bho start cracking the whip over the congressional dems


well, this is what bugged me about Obama from the very beginning. He's an incrementalist, a centrist, obsessed with mythical bipartishanship.

He never ran on universal healthcare, and he never held out a public option as a pivotal, key element of his campaign.

If democrats wanted somebody who was more cut throat, and was unabashedly for true universal healthcare, and a public option, Hillary Clinton, or some of the other choices were in that camp.

Obama was never going to pull an FDR and shove universal healthcare or a public option down the throat of the GOP.

Man, I knew there were going to be problems when Tom Dashle, and ultimately Kathleen Seblius were nominated for health secretary. Daschle is a tool who in in the pocket of big pharma. Howard Dean or Elizabeth Edwards would have been excellent choices for HHS secretary.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I should've voted for Clinton. I thought Obama was the more liberal option, and boy was I wrong.

[Jarod]

I listened to a guy who is on Social Security Disability tell me about how he is against "socalized medicine" and how Obama is taking his money to pay for this program and how Obama is nuthing but a socialist.

[Cypress]

I listened to a guy who is on Social Security Disability tell me about how he is against "socalized medicine" and how Obama is taking his money to pay for this program and how Obama is nuthing but a socialist.


How about the teabaggers who were screaming for the government to "keep their hands off my medicare".

That's the thing about wingnuts. They support the New Deal, without even realizing it. They've been trained like mindless chimpanzees by Glenn Beck to rant and rave at the New Deal.

[Cancel5]

How about the teabaggers who were screaming for the government to "keep their hands off my medicare".

That's the thing about wingnuts. They support the New Deal, without even realizing it. They've been trained like mindless chimpanzees by Glenn Beck to rant and rave at the New Deal.
Teabaggers, I still giggle every time I hear that term.

[Cancel5]

I listened to a guy who is on Social Security Disability tell me about how he is against "socalized medicine" and how Obama is taking his money to pay for this program and how Obama is nuthing but a socialist.
Now that is just too darn funny, did someone in the audience point out his error?

[Damocles]

Teabaggers, I still giggle every time I hear that term.
I don't know why, if one is the teabagger, the other is the teabaggee...

[Cancel5]

I don't know why, if one is the teabagger, the other is the teabaggee...
That made me giggle, even more! The image just pops into my head and I don't think it is what they want me to think about when they are out protesting! Especially, the church folks!

[Cypress]

Teabaggers, I still giggle every time I hear that term.

Oh man, it never gets old!

[Damocles]

Oh man, it never gets old!
Says the uber-teabaggee... ;)

[PostmodernProphet]

in ca there are several insurance companies that administer medicare

they like the part 'd' pharma option...very profitable
???.....then you mean companies offering supplemental insurance for Medicare.....now I am even more confused.....in the above quote you say there are several companies involved.....I am sure that is true, because several companies would offer Medicare supplemental....but in your original quote you said there were only two.....so basically, you have contradicted yourself three different ways in two statements.....would you care to choose one and start over?......

[Jarod]

I saw a gaggle of teabaggees on the corner here in town yesterday protesting Obama the socialist..... Such ignorance is almost humerous.

[Damocles]

I saw a gaggle of teabaggees on the corner here in town yesterday protesting Obama the socialist..... Such ignorance is almost humerous.
You have that incorrect, they are the baggers, your side are the baggees.

[Don Quixote]

???.....then you mean companies offering supplemental insurance for Medicare.....now I am even more confused.....in the above quote you say there are several companies involved.....I am sure that is true, because several companies would offer Medicare supplemental....but in your original quote you said there were only two.....so basically, you have contradicted yourself three different ways in two statements.....would you care to choose one and start over?......

there are many in calif overall

there are only two in the area that i live in...smaller market

the la area has many...bigger market

[SmarterthanYou]

How about the teabaggers who were screaming for the government to "keep their hands off my medicare".

That's the thing about wingnuts. They support the New Deal, without even realizing it. They've been trained like mindless chimpanzees by Glenn Beck to rant and rave at the New Deal.

you could just as well apply the 'trained like mindless chimpanzees' statement to nearly every liberal nut also.

[meme]

maybe we should come up with a nice degrading name for the Union and Acorn people who are out there protesting...

any suggestions? gotta be good and nasty now..

[Don Quixote]

You have that incorrect, they are the baggers, your side are the baggees.

i think that you are just bagging on us

[Cancel5]

You have that incorrect, they are the baggers, your side are the baggees.

I don't know Damo! Looks like this guy is takin it!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sW65ilskOC8/SeY8rnBTdxI/AAAAAAAAW1c/4BNshRC8kPU/s400/Teabagger.jpg

[Cancel5]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_qz8ZgdPk2Lc/R9bd4Hk2T0I/AAAAAAAAAUY/JALkJrlBEyw/Honeymoon+570.jpg

Caption for this was Italian Teabaggers!

[Cancel5]

#1 teabagger!

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/dsc02701.jpg

[Minister of Truth]

I don't know Damo! Looks like this guy is takin it!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sW65ilskOC8/SeY8rnBTdxI/AAAAAAAAW1c/4BNshRC8kPU/s400/Teabagger.jpg

I will gladly T-Bag any hot chick willing to take it. Like her, for example:

http://my.prostreetonline.com/photos/data/508/Bikini-Carwash-Babe-93.jpg

[BRUTALITOPS]

another solid post from 3d

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I will gladly T-Bag any hot chick willing to take it. Like her, for example:

http://my.prostreetonline.com/photos/data/508/Bikini-Carwash-Babe-93.jpg

Is that Amy Reid?

[BRUTALITOPS]

her face reminds me of wolfowitz

[Trent]

I will gladly T-Bag any hot chick willing to take it. Like her, for example:

http://my.prostreetonline.com/photos/data/508/Bikini-Carwash-Babe-93.jpg

I know what you are saying, she just gives me goosebumps and makes me tingle all over. Heavens to betsy she is just delicious :clink:

[Cancel5]

I know what you are saying, she just gives me goosebumps and makes me tingle all over. Heavens to betsy she is just delicious :clink:
Welcome Trent

[Don Quixote]

Welcome Trent

its a guy thing

[FUCK THE POLICE]

her face reminds me of wolfowitz

Amy Reid is a semi-butterface. She has the best boobs in the universe though.

[Jarod]

You have that incorrect, they are the baggers, your side are the baggees.

What makes you say that?

[Damocles]

What makes you say that?
Because they are named "teabaggers" by your group. They are doing the teabagging, your side is who they are teabagging, hence you are the teabaggees.

You should be proud to announce to the world how you love being teabaggees, so that people can continue to "giggle" when you try to dismiss their protest by calling them "teabaggers". Open wide.

[Jarod]

Because they are named "teabaggers" by your group. They are doing the teabagging, your side is who they are teabagging, hence you are the teabaggees.

You should be proud to announce to the world how you love being teabaggees, so that people can continue to "giggle" when you try to dismiss their protest by calling them "teabaggers". Open wide.

1. Not my group.
2. Looks to me like they are trying to do "teabagging" but failing miserably and thus getting "tebagged.

[Damocles]

1. Not my group.
2. Looks to me like they are trying to do "teabagging" but failing miserably and thus getting "tebagged.
Desperate twisting. Your side decided to try to label them in such a childish way, you have to accept the other side of your label as well.

In the future expect to see such phrases as, "Teabaggee Nancy Pelosi was met by a group of teabagger protesters..."

Or "Teabaggee Harry Reid opened wide today when he was confronted by constituent teabaggers..."

[charver]

Desperate twisting. Your side decided to try to label them in such a childish way, you have to accept the other side of your label as well.

In the future expect to see such phrases as, "Teabaggee Nancy Pelosi was met by a group of teabagger protesters..."

I think we can all reach a consensus that the "teabagging" thing has become rather tired and any remaining vestige of humour, which it allegedly once possessed, dried up a long time ago.

[Jarod]

Desperate twisting. Your side decided to try to label them in such a childish way, you have to accept the other side of your label as well.

In the future expect to see such phrases as, "Teabaggee Nancy Pelosi was met by a group of teabagger protesters..."

Or "Teabaggee Harry Reid opened wide today when he was confronted by constituent teabaggers..."


Describe it how you wish, and expect me to call YOUR SIDE the teabaggee's.

[Damocles]

Describe it how you wish, and expect me to call YOUR SIDE the teabaggee's.
LOL. Again a desperate twisting in the wind. Your side already labeled them, accepting quietly the unanticipated and surprise labeling of yourself.

I hope the teabagger protesters proudly proclaim it, and continue to make more of the Congressional D Leadership and their followers into Teabaggees. They've opened wide, and have told the world who the teabaggers are.

Maybe we should just call them the Openwiders...

[Cypress]

Because they are named "teabaggers" by your group. They are doing the teabagging, your side is who they are teabagging, hence you are the teabaggees.

You should be proud to announce to the world how you love being teabaggees, so that people can continue to "giggle" when you try to dismiss their protest by calling them "teabaggers". Open wide.


Man, have another six-pack Damo. This is kinda wierd.

So Republican teabaggers want to put their balls in the mouths of Obama, Biden, Jarod, and Cypress?


Why do republican dudes want to put their balls in the mouth of other dudes? That's some shit that has never even crossed my mind.

I guess this explains why dudes like Larry Craig and Ted Haggard become republicans. :pke:

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

house dems suck balls.

[Cancel 2016.2]

I think we can all reach a consensus that the "teabagging" thing has become rather tired and any remaining vestige of humour, which it allegedly once possessed, dried up a long time ago.

so it is just becoming funny in England?

[Damocles]

Man, have another six-pack Damo. This is kinda wierd.

So Republican teabaggers want to put their balls in the mouths of Obama, Biden, Jarod, and Cypress?


Why do republican dudes want to put their balls in the mouth of other dudes? That's some shit that has never even crossed my mind.

I guess this explains why dudes like Larry Craig and Ted Haggard become republicans. :pke:
LOL. It's the picture you wanted to bring by championing the term "teabaggers"... isn't it? Openwiders are pretty much loudmouths who want to dismiss others rather than pay attention to their opinions... This is a fair thing to do in politics, about half the people disagree with you.

And of course it "crossed your mind" it was the lefty imagination that brought up the idea of "teabaggers" to begin with, Cypress. Methinks again thou dost protest too much.

You and your fellow openwiders will just have to keep cheering on the "teabaggers." Or you can try to label them differently, but it is apparent that this is a fun picture of jocularity for both sides, it might be difficult. At least I'm enjoying it.

[Jarod]

I call them tea whiners...

People who do not want to pay there fair share. People who do not want accept personal resonsability!

They drive on public roads to get to the protest, but they dont want to pay taxes to keep those roads maintained. Waaaa, dont tax me!

[Minister of Truth]

LOL Teabagee Jarod opines on "whiners."