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midcan5
08-18-2009, 06:35 AM
>
An Open Letter On Health Care to Conservative Christians in the U.S.

by Brian McLaren

Dear Friends,

"...Now, in the debate about health care, I am similarly disheartened to see the relative silence of thoughtful Christian voices as counterpoint to the predictable rhetoric of the more reactive voices. Over the last few weeks, I’ve been getting mass e-mails and Web links from evangelical and charismatic organizations that present frightening and outlandish claims about what President Obama is planning to do regarding health care. I’ve checked into these claims, and in case after case, they are simply false. They’re based on rumors spread by certain dramatic radio and cable-tv personalities, but they are not based in truth."

http://blog.sojo.net/2009/08/11/an-open-letter-to-conservative-christians-in-the-us-on-health-care/

http://go.sojo.net/campaign/health_care

Have a say in the discussion.

uscitizen
08-18-2009, 10:34 AM
Christians not wanting to help their fellow man. Figures..
Those are not TRUE Christians, just self proclaimed christians.

Cancel 2018. 3
08-18-2009, 11:54 AM
once again midcan shows how ignorant he is....

there is nothing about christianity that says we must give the GOVERNMENT the power....christians all over the world give free healthcare....doctors without borders goes all over to help people....i could go on, but i have no doubt it will fall on deaf ears because those who have made up their minds about christians are blind and deaf as to any idea that does not comport with their preconcieved views

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 11:55 AM
Christians not wanting to help their fellow man. Figures..
Those are not TRUE Christians, just self proclaimed christians.

I find it odd that the liberals present a plan that leaves the poor saddled with a $10k family deductible and a 30% copay when they know the poor can't afford it....meanwhile, the liberals make sure they get the same coverage the poor can't afford, even if the liberals have the money to pay for it......strange way to "help their fellow man", isn't it........must be self-proclaimed progressives.....

midcan5
08-18-2009, 12:12 PM
Why do conservatives find it necessary to make any excuse for not helping their fellow man? Whether it be clean air, minimum wage, social security, or welfare, they always manage to see the hole. Consider we all live for this brief moment and then are gone forever, why waste the moment, do something, and preferably do something good for all.

from the letter:

"But for almost that many years, I have been growing more and more deeply troubled by the way so many from my heritage in conservative Christianity – in its evangelical, charismatic, and Roman Catholic streams – have allowed themselves to be spiritually formed by various conservative political and economic ideologies. It’s been disturbing to see how many Christians have begun to follow and trust leaders who live more by political/media/ideological codes than by moral/spiritual/biblical ones.

As a result, I sometimes think that Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly, Glenn Beck, and Fox News may now influence many conservative evangelicals, charismatics, and Catholics more than Billy Graham, Rick Warren, T.D. Jakes, Pope Benedict, or even the four gospels.

Now in a free country, people certainly have the right to choose their ideology. But Christians of all sorts, I think we all can agree, have a special calling – to increasingly harmonize our lives (including our lives as citizens) with the teaching and example of Jesus. My concern is that many of my sisters and brothers, without realizing it, have begun seeing Jesus and the faith through the lens of a neo-conservative political framework, thus reducing their vision of Jesus and his essential message of the kingdom of God. As a result, too many of us are becoming more and more zealous conservatives, but less and less Christ-like Christians, and many don’t seem to notice the difference.

Thankfully, many Christian leaders are far more thoughtful and nuanced in their integration of faith and public life. They don’t jump on talk-radio’s latest conspiracy theory bandwagons, nor do they buy flippant talk of “death panels” or inappropriate comparisons to Hitler and so on. But still, so many of them remain silent about what’s going on, and thereby grant it tacit approval."

uscitizen
08-18-2009, 12:12 PM
I find it odd that the liberals present a plan that leaves the poor saddled with a $10k family deductible and a 30% copay when they know the poor can't afford it....meanwhile, the liberals make sure they get the same coverage the poor can't afford, even if the liberals have the money to pay for it......strange way to "help their fellow man", isn't it........must be self-proclaimed progressives.....

You could pretty much substitue conservatives for liberal in that.

Ohh wait the cons have submitted no plan.
They like it like it is.

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 12:51 PM
Ohh wait the cons have submitted no plan.


you've already been corrected on that lie by others, no reason to repeat the exercise.....

leaningright
08-18-2009, 01:05 PM
once again midcan shows how ignorant he is....

there is nothing about christianity that says we must give the GOVERNMENT the power....christians all over the world give free healthcare....doctors without borders goes all over to help people....i could go on, but i have no doubt it will fall on deaf ears because those who have made up their minds about christians are blind and deaf as to any idea that does not comport with their preconcieved views

You are correct here. We are not required to give the government that sort of power. We are told the government has some responsibilities and not one of those responsibilities is to provide health care. We have a responsibility to the government......to be subject to it as long as it doesn't contradict God's law. And Christians do help a lot of people in the ways you describe. My congregation of only 50 - 60 people does a lot of good providing help (not just medical but food and clothing as well) for a lot of people, thousands of people per year.

That said, if the government could come up with something that would work and wouldn't break the bank to help poor families get coverage I'd be all for it. So far, IMO, they have shown that they cannot do it.

You know the quickest way to drain a congregation's bank account is for one of the needy members to have a severe medical problem here in America and rely on the congregation to help them out. IMO, that's a problem. So I admit that there is a problem but so far I can see no viable solution from either side.

uscitizen
08-18-2009, 01:48 PM
Leaning. How about this.
Expand medicaid to cover anyone up to 50K income. With a graduated premium deducted from their pay, etc if they join. Lets say you pay $80 a month if you make 35K just fo instance and $250 if you mke 50K.

Roll CHIPS in there as well. This would just be an expansion of an existing program.

I expect what we wind up with out of the current "reform" debacle is not going to benefit much of anyone except the medical and drug industry.

Topspin
08-18-2009, 02:02 PM
whambulance for the attack the drug industry folks.
They suck till you really need that pill.
dumbasses

Damocles
08-18-2009, 02:22 PM
Well, don't you know that the only way to act "holy" is through government? We should make all our laws based on religion there, Midcan... :rolleyes:

Inane.

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 02:31 PM
Leaning. How about this.
Expand medicaid to cover anyone up to 50K income. With a graduated premium deducted from their pay, etc if they join. Lets say you pay $80 a month if you make 35K just fo instance and $250 if you mke 50K.

Roll CHIPS in there as well. This would just be an expansion of an existing program.

I expect what we wind up with out of the current "reform" debacle is not going to benefit much of anyone except the medical and drug industry.

how about open up both Medicaid and the federal employee program to enroll anyone that wants to enroll....then concentrate on helping financially those who really need help....why are you giving money to people who make $50k a year?.....I know lots of folks who are doing fine on $40k a year income.....

DamnYankee
08-18-2009, 03:36 PM
>
An Open Letter On Health Care to Conservative Christians in the U.S.

by Brian McLaren

Dear Friends,

"...Now, in the debate about health care, I am similarly disheartened to see the relative silence of thoughtful Christian voices as counterpoint to the predictable rhetoric of the more reactive voices. Over the last few weeks, I’ve been getting mass e-mails and Web links from evangelical and charismatic organizations that present frightening and outlandish claims about what President Obama is planning to do regarding health care. I’ve checked into these claims, and in case after case, they are simply false. They’re based on rumors spread by certain dramatic radio and cable-tv personalities, but they are not based in truth."

http://blog.sojo.net/2009/08/11/an-open-letter-to-conservative-christians-in-the-us-on-health-care/

http://go.sojo.net/campaign/health_care

Have a say in the discussion.

When a liberal is failing at debate this is one of the last gasp tactics used.

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 03:42 PM
When a liberal is failing at debate this is one of the last gasp tactics used.

I don't have much room to argue....McLaren's a fellow postmodern prophet.....

Minister of Truth
08-18-2009, 03:58 PM
Why do conservatives find it necessary to make any excuse for not helping their fellow man? Whether it be clean air, minimum wage, social security, or welfare, they always manage to see the hole. Consider we all live for this brief moment and then are gone forever, why waste the moment, do something, and preferably do something good for all.

from the letter:

"But for almost that many years, I have been growing more and more deeply troubled by the way so many from my heritage in conservative Christianity – in its evangelical, charismatic, and Roman Catholic streams – have allowed themselves to be spiritually formed by various conservative political and economic ideologies. It’s been disturbing to see how many Christians have begun to follow and trust leaders who live more by political/media/ideological codes than by moral/spiritual/biblical ones.

As a result, I sometimes think that Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly, Glenn Beck, and Fox News may now influence many conservative evangelicals, charismatics, and Catholics more than Billy Graham, Rick Warren, T.D. Jakes, Pope Benedict, or even the four gospels.

Now in a free country, people certainly have the right to choose their ideology. But Christians of all sorts, I think we all can agree, have a special calling – to increasingly harmonize our lives (including our lives as citizens) with the teaching and example of Jesus. My concern is that many of my sisters and brothers, without realizing it, have begun seeing Jesus and the faith through the lens of a neo-conservative political framework, thus reducing their vision of Jesus and his essential message of the kingdom of God. As a result, too many of us are becoming more and more zealous conservatives, but less and less Christ-like Christians, and many don’t seem to notice the difference.

Thankfully, many Christian leaders are far more thoughtful and nuanced in their integration of faith and public life. They don’t jump on talk-radio’s latest conspiracy theory bandwagons, nor do they buy flippant talk of “death panels” or inappropriate comparisons to Hitler and so on. But still, so many of them remain silent about what’s going on, and thereby grant it tacit approval."

I live in America, under American law and principles. This republic was founded upon Natural Rights, English Constitutionalism, and Real Whig Ideology. Not upon theocracy and statism. This is why I haven't forced the Papacy upon you Godless Liberals and Heretical Neocons, et. al. yet.

Its really not difficult to understand. You liberals don't want to see a theocracy anymore than the rest of us, nor Judgement Day, I expect. Perhaps if you would go out, produce wealth, and spend it around and donate it like the rest of us do, we'd all be better off.

Meanwhile, I am not going to require tithing, receiving of the sacraments, observance of Lent and Easter, or any of the other cool things that would probably bore most of you to tears...

Cancel 2018. 3
08-18-2009, 04:50 PM
I live in America, under American law and principles. This republic was founded upon Natural Rights, English Constitutionalism, and Real Whig Ideology. Not upon theocracy and statism. This is why I haven't forced the Papacy upon you Godless Liberals and Heretical Neocons, et. al. yet.

Its really not difficult to understand. You liberals don't want to see a theocracy anymore than the rest of us, nor Judgement Day, I expect. Perhaps if you would go out, produce wealth, and spend it around and donate it like the rest of us do, we'd all be better off.

Meanwhile, I am not going to require tithing, receiving of the sacraments, observance of Lent and Easter, or any of the other cool things that would probably bore most of you to tears...

well said

ib1yysguy
08-18-2009, 05:32 PM
I live in America, under American law and principles. This republic was founded upon Natural Rights, English Constitutionalism, and Real Whig Ideology. Not upon theocracy and statism. This is why I haven't forced the Papacy upon you Godless Liberals and Heretical Neocons, et. al. yet.

Its really not difficult to understand. You liberals don't want to see a theocracy anymore than the rest of us, nor Judgement Day, I expect. Perhaps if you would go out, produce wealth, and spend it around and donate it like the rest of us do, we'd all be better off.

Meanwhile, I am not going to require tithing, receiving of the sacraments, observance of Lent and Easter, or any of the other cool things that would probably bore most of you to tears...

... says the guy with a government job. How much wealth are you creating in the reserves?

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 05:46 PM
if he's in the reserves, his job is preserving it....an honorable role....

DamnYankee
08-18-2009, 05:54 PM
... says the guy with a government job. How much wealth are you creating in the reserves? How much are you creating taking pictures? :pke:

ib1yysguy
08-18-2009, 06:04 PM
How much are you creating taking pictures? :pke:

Plenty.

DamnYankee
08-18-2009, 06:08 PM
Plenty.Actually close to zero. You sell a little advertising time, purchased by wealth builders. *shrug*

Cancel 2018. 3
08-18-2009, 06:11 PM
... says the guy with a government job. How much wealth are you creating in the reserves?

epic FAIL

Ted Haggard
08-18-2009, 06:41 PM
>
An Open Letter On Health Care to Conservative Christians in the U.S.

Dear Friends,

"...Now, in the debate about health care, I am similarly disheartened to see the relative silence of thoughtful Christian voices as counterpoint to the predictable rhetoric of the more reactive voices. Over the last few weeks, I’ve been getting mass e-mails and Web links from evangelical and charismatic organizations that present frightening and outlandish claims about what President Obama is planning to do regarding health care. I’ve checked into these claims, and in case after case, they are simply false. They’re based on rumors spread by certain dramatic radio and cable-tv personalities, but they are not based in truth."

http://blog.sojo.net/2009/08/11/an-open-letter-to-conservative-christians-in-the-us-on-health-care/

http://go.sojo.net/campaign/health_care

Have a say in the discussion.


Honestly, Mr. Midcan, I’m uncomfortable with Obama’s socialist death panels. I can’t support death panels, as a Christian. I believe in the culture of life.

I really don’t think we need socialist healthcare here. I’ve found that prayer is ALWAYS the best medicine. And if I need cheap prescription drugs, I just jet across the border to Canada or Mexico and hook myself up. Problem solved!

So, unless Obama’s socialist government insurance covers sensual massage therapy sessions, or gay conversion consultation, I can’t support it as a God-fearing Christian.



God Bless,

Ted

DamnYankee
08-18-2009, 06:48 PM
LOL

Don Quixote
08-18-2009, 06:50 PM
once again midcan shows how ignorant he is....

there is nothing about christianity that says we must give the GOVERNMENT the power....christians all over the world give free healthcare....doctors without borders goes all over to help people....i could go on, but i have no doubt it will fall on deaf ears because those who have made up their minds about christians are blind and deaf as to any idea that does not comport with their preconcieved views

reminds me of the salvation army during the depression

the rule was soup first, shelter next and attempts at conversion last

midcan5
08-18-2009, 07:15 PM
Amazing how many excuses the mind can find for not helping the other person. If someone has no help, but then gets help from the government, how does the mind of some make that wrong? Boggles my mind. But consider that no one is running against social security, medicare, or vets benefits? Odd that the big bad government can do good things in those areas, huh?


"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:8-9

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." Matthew 6:24

Fish
08-18-2009, 07:18 PM
I find it odd that the liberals present a plan that leaves the poor saddled with a $10k family deductible and a 30% copay when they know the poor can't afford it....meanwhile, the liberals make sure they get the same coverage the poor can't afford, even if the liberals have the money to pay for it......strange way to "help their fellow man", isn't it........must be self-proclaimed progressives.....

I've only read the thread up to this point, so forgive me if this has been addressed:

I think you're confusing the words "liberals" and "democrats" because trust me, as a liberal amongst liberal friends, this health care plan is fucking awful. Sure, it's awful for different reasons than yours, but to call this plan liberal is really really off.

Fish
08-18-2009, 07:28 PM
Honestly, Mr. Midcan, I’m uncomfortable with Obama’s socialist death panels. I can’t support death panels, as a Christian. I believe in the culture of life.

I really don’t think we need socialist healthcare here. I’ve found that prayer is ALWAYS the best medicine. And if I need cheap prescription drugs, I just jet across the border to Canada or Mexico and hook myself up. Problem solved!

So, unless Obama’s socialist government insurance covers sensual massage therapy sessions, or gay conversion consultation, I can’t support it as a God-fearing Christian.



God Bless,

Ted

EDIT: Nevermind, this post rules.

Minister of Truth
08-18-2009, 11:38 PM
... says the guy with a government job. How much wealth are you creating in the reserves?

WTF The reserves isn't even a full-time job. I have met a handful of Guardsmen who are full-time businessmen.

Don Quixote
08-19-2009, 12:32 AM
WTF The reserves isn't even a full-time job. I have met a handful of Guardsmen who are full-time businessmen.

wtf

what about the guards and reserves who have been called up to iraq and afghanistan

ib1yysguy
08-19-2009, 01:12 AM
WTF The reserves isn't even a full-time job. I have met a handful of Guardsmen who are full-time businessmen.

Oh, so what's your full-time business then? You're a student getting your school paid for by my tax dollars in Washington state, aren't you?

midcan5
08-19-2009, 05:46 AM
Honestly, Mr. Midcan, I’m uncomfortable with Obama’s socialist death panels. I can’t support death panels, as a Christian. I believe in the culture of life.

I really don’t think we need socialist healthcare here. I’ve found that prayer is ALWAYS the best medicine. And if I need cheap prescription drugs, I just jet across the border to Canada or Mexico and hook myself up. Problem solved!

So, unless Obama’s socialist government insurance covers sensual massage therapy sessions, or gay conversion consultation, I can’t support it as a God-fearing Christian.

God Bless,

Ted

Ted,

Thanks for your input, I recognize completely your concern with death panels, as helping families make end of life decisions would be a Christ-like act and completely out of character with the modern Christian.

And prayer is cheap so you'll be able save for those massages and conversion consultations. Good luck with that by the way, I've heard your Gawd is vengeful and if he hears you're gay he may stick your ass in that place with all the fire.

It's so good that you can fly over to those other socialist nations and get your highs. You may want to consult with Mr Rush Limbaugh, he is very knowledgeable in illicit drug use and he is definitely on your side when it comes to trashing those bad socialists and healthcare for sinful poor Americans.

So good to hear you're still fearing your Gawd, that helps keep the proletariat in line and under corporate power. No need to hope for a better world here, that comes next after you suffer through this short existence. Religion is the opiate and the excuse for all sorts of wonderful suffering in this world. Ain't that vengeful Gawd something!

Good luck and hope you find clouds and not fire on exiting this world.

Mr. midcan

DamnYankee
08-19-2009, 06:06 AM
It's amazingly how liberals defy God with abortion, gay marriage and socialism then ask conservatives to give up freedom in the name of Christ. It does show a consistent lack of understanding of Christianity though.

Damocles
08-19-2009, 08:01 AM
Oh, so what's your full-time business then? You're a student getting your school paid for by my tax dollars in Washington state, aren't you?
Right. We should then maintain that every person should immediately upon birth begin to create riches. :rolleyes:

He's following his own plan and will get there, how 'bout you?

leaningright
08-19-2009, 09:07 AM
Leaning. How about this.
Expand medicaid to cover anyone up to 50K income. With a graduated premium deducted from their pay, etc if they join. Lets say you pay $80 a month if you make 35K just fo instance and $250 if you mke 50K.

Roll CHIPS in there as well. This would just be an expansion of an existing program.

I expect what we wind up with out of the current "reform" debacle is not going to benefit much of anyone except the medical and drug industry.

Might work. At least it sounds more plausible than what we've been hearing.

Damocles
08-19-2009, 09:18 AM
Leaning. How about this.
Expand medicaid to cover anyone up to 50K income. With a graduated premium deducted from their pay, etc if they join. Lets say you pay $80 a month if you make 35K just fo instance and $250 if you mke 50K.

Roll CHIPS in there as well. This would just be an expansion of an existing program.

I expect what we wind up with out of the current "reform" debacle is not going to benefit much of anyone except the medical and drug industry.


Might work. At least it sounds more plausible than what we've been hearing.

Yeah, this is what I've been pushing myself.

I would expressly write into the legislation a "task force" or whatever you want to call it that has the goal to find out where this unprecedented increase in cost is coming from and resolve it.

I would also make it so that small companies could band together and create a larger pool for cheaper insurance. However, this is temporary. We need to decouple insurance from your employer to begin with, that's one of the worst deals that unions brought us, it keeps you stuck at your current employment for fear your "pre-existing conditions" wouldn't be covered.

Canceled2
08-19-2009, 09:53 AM
>
An Open Letter On Health Care to Conservative Christians in the U.S.

by Brian McLaren

Dear Friends,

"...Now, in the debate about health care, I am similarly disheartened to see the relative silence of thoughtful Christian voices as counterpoint to the predictable rhetoric of the more reactive voices. Over the last few weeks, I’ve been getting mass e-mails and Web links from evangelical and charismatic organizations that present frightening and outlandish claims about what President Obama is planning to do regarding health care. I’ve checked into these claims, and in case after case, they are simply false. They’re based on rumors spread by certain dramatic radio and cable-tv personalities, but they are not based in truth."

http://blog.sojo.net/2009/08/11/an-open-letter-to-conservative-christians-in-the-us-on-health-care/

http://go.sojo.net/campaign/health_care

Have a say in the discussion.

Brian McLaren is NOT a conservative Christian. He is the leader of the "emergent" movement a very liberal ideology. His teachings are considered heretical. If he has an opinion about Health Care he is entitled to it. If he is speaking for mainstream christianity he has no platform.

uscitizen
08-19-2009, 09:59 AM
Right. We should then maintain that every person should immediately upon birth begin to create riches. :rolleyes:

He's following his own plan and will get there, how 'bout you?


Ever buy Baby stuff, toys, etc. Babys create lots of riches.
toys R Us? Babys R Us?

Damocles
08-19-2009, 10:01 AM
Ever buy Baby stuff, toys, etc. Babys create lots of riches.
toys R Us? Babys R Us?
Babies' parents create riches. If you go by this then 3D is creating riches by attending college, it's expensive.

ib is trying to say 3D is hypocritical because he is following the regular path that most successful people follow rather than creating riches now. The idea is to make it so that he seems unreasonable in suggesting that the government doesn't make it more "holy" if you are following anything.

This whole idea smacks of hypocrisy. Christians should use the government to fulfill their personal obligations? Please.

uscitizen
08-19-2009, 10:03 AM
Babies' parents create riches. If you go by this then 3D is creating riches by attending college, it's expensive.

ib is trying to say 3D is hypocritical because he is following the regular path that most successful people follow rather than creating now.

Babies create riches, the question is for whom do they create the riches.

Damocles
08-19-2009, 10:05 AM
Babies create riches, the question is for whom do they create the riches.
Again, they do not personally create anything except poop and vomit. Their parents spending money creates the riches.

DamnYankee
08-19-2009, 10:16 AM
Ever buy Baby stuff, toys, etc. Babys create lots of riches.
toys R Us? Babys R Us? Typical lib, thinking consumption is creation. *shrug*

Minister of Truth
08-19-2009, 10:39 AM
Oh, so what's your full-time business then? You're a student getting your school paid for by my tax dollars in Washington state, aren't you?

No, as a part-time Guardsmen, almost all of the tuition is coming out of pocket, because we get shitty benefits compared to Reserves, Active Guard, and Active Duty. I will get most of my student loans paid off by Student Loan Repayment Program and I have been collecting GI Bill every month during the school year, but I think it just ran out on me, so I will have to check into that further.

Now, since I don't want to be disengenuous, my full-time job will be non-productive, as I will be teaching. Of course, this fall, I will be doing the teaching for free, since we don't get paid to student teach. :cool:

Anyway, I fail to see how taking on a helping role by working within the government discredits the American principles I wrote about. Someone has to do these jobs, and being a civil and military servant does tie into Midcan's anti-Christian/anti-American rant.

Damocles
08-19-2009, 10:56 AM
No, as a part-time Guardsmen, almost all of the tuition is coming out of pocket, because we get shitty benefits compared to Reserves, Active Guard, and Active Duty. I will get most of my student loans paid off by Student Loan Repayment Program and I have been collecting GI Bill every month during the school year, but I think it just ran out on me, so I will have to check into that further.

Now, since I don't want to be disengenuous, my full-time job will be non-productive, as I will be teaching. Of course, this fall, I will be doing the teaching for free, since we don't get paid to student teach. :cool:

Anyway, I fail to see how taking on a helping role by working within the government discredits the American principles I wrote about. Someone has to do these jobs, and being a civil and military servant does tie into Midcan's anti-Christian/anti-American rant.
Good teachers create the most wealth, it just isn't their own. (Well, at least not until the back-end of their career it isn't).

Minister of Truth
08-19-2009, 11:08 AM
Babies' parents create riches. If you go by this then 3D is creating riches by attending college, it's expensive.

ib is trying to say 3D is hypocritical because he is following the regular path that most successful people follow rather than creating riches now. The idea is to make it so that he seems unreasonable in suggesting that the government doesn't make it more "holy" if you are following anything.

This whole idea smacks of hypocrisy. Christians should use the government to fulfill their personal obligations? Please.

I agree, American principles of government prohibit me from forcing people to be charitable, from forcing them to join the Church and observe its feastdays/sacraments/etc., and from forcing them to generally care about their neighbors and fellow man.

As a republic, we are dependent upon each individual holding themselves to a high code of honor, morals, and patriotism, so that charity and care get attended to nevertheless. If I wanted to live under a theocracy, I could move to the Vatican, or to Saudi Arabia, but, again, I maintain that the liberals on this board also do not want to live under a theocracy, so they should stop trying to use government to force people to do their bidding. Especially since its un-American either way you look at it.

Cancel 2018. 3
08-19-2009, 11:25 AM
I agree, American principles of government prohibit me from forcing people to be charitable, from forcing them to join the Church and observe its feastdays/sacraments/etc., and from forcing them to generally care about their neighbors and fellow man.

As a republic, we are dependent upon each individual holding themselves to a high code of honor, morals, and patriotism, so that charity and care get attended to nevertheless. If I wanted to live under a theocracy, I could move to the Vatican, or to Saudi Arabia, but, again, I maintain that the liberals on this board also do not want to live under a theocracy, so they should stop trying to use government to force people to do their bidding. Especially since its un-American either way you look at it.

exactly!

PostmodernProphet
08-19-2009, 11:35 AM
Brian McLaren is NOT a conservative Christian. He is the leader of the "emergent" movement a very liberal ideology. His teachings are considered heretical. If he has an opinion about Health Care he is entitled to it. If he is speaking for mainstream christianity he has no platform.

I wouldn't consider him "heretical", unless I am also heretical....he's my favorite author and the inspiration for most of my theological positions....

midcan5
08-19-2009, 04:21 PM
Brian McLaren is NOT a conservative Christian. He is the leader of the "emergent" movement a very liberal ideology. His teachings are considered heretical. If he has an opinion about Health Care he is entitled to it. If he is speaking for mainstream christianity he has no platform.

Too funny so Christians are both sides of the fence, what side is God on, do you know? Or are you just following your ideological platform and religion really doesn't matter.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=action.display&item=HC09-main

http://blog.sojo.net/2009/08/06/truth-telling-and-responsibility-in-health-care/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-nejfelt/christians-weigh-in-on-he_b_250332.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-warmowski/christians-please-report_b_246730.html

Damocles
08-19-2009, 05:29 PM
Too funny so Christians are both sides of the fence, what side is God on, do you know? Or are you just following your ideological platform and religion really doesn't matter.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=action.display&item=HC09-main

http://blog.sojo.net/2009/08/06/truth-telling-and-responsibility-in-health-care/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-nejfelt/christians-weigh-in-on-he_b_250332.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-warmowski/christians-please-report_b_246730.html
One thing we know, since you don't actually support a theocracy, is that you are certainly working to fit the religion into your political ideology.

Minister of Truth
08-19-2009, 06:27 PM
Too funny so Christians are both sides of the fence, what side is God on, do you know? Or are you just following your ideological platform and religion really doesn't matter.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=action.display&item=HC09-main

http://blog.sojo.net/2009/08/06/truth-telling-and-responsibility-in-health-care/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-nejfelt/christians-weigh-in-on-he_b_250332.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-warmowski/christians-please-report_b_246730.html

Its simple - liberals aren't Christians. I laugh at any who call themselves such.

Canceled2
08-19-2009, 06:53 PM
Too funny so Christians are both sides of the fence, what side is God on, do you know? Or are you just following your ideological platform and religion really doesn't matter.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=action.display&item=HC09-main

http://blog.sojo.net/2009/08/06/truth-telling-and-responsibility-in-health-care/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-nejfelt/christians-weigh-in-on-he_b_250332.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-warmowski/christians-please-report_b_246730.html

God does not condescend to human political platforms dork. I align myself with that political platform which best fits my world view.

uscitizen
08-19-2009, 09:01 PM
Its simple - liberals aren't Christians. I laugh at any who call themselves such.


Strange conclusion since Christ was a liberal.

PostmodernProphet
08-19-2009, 09:12 PM
Strange conclusion since Christ was a liberal.

only if you pretend you have some good qualities......

uscitizen
08-19-2009, 09:15 PM
only if you pretend you have some good qualities......

What does Christ being a liberal have to do with me having good qualities?

I do of course , but I still do not see how that impacts Christ being a liberal?

Cancel 2018. 3
08-19-2009, 09:26 PM
What does Christ being a liberal have to do with me having good qualities?

I do of course , but I still do not see how that impacts Christ being a liberal?

christ had neither liberal or conservative qualities as we call them today.....

to drag christ into these petty and stupid arguments is stupid

uscitizen
08-19-2009, 09:29 PM
christ had neither liberal or conservative qualities as we call them today.....

to drag christ into these petty and stupid arguments is stupid

the conservatives at his time were the Jewish Church leaders who you had to pay in one for or another to gain favor with God.
Jesus offered a way around them. did not shun tainted ladies, let the children come unto me, etc. He even opened god/heaven to Gentiles. He was a liberal and it got him crucified.
His final liberal act of running the moneychangers out of the temple was the final straw that got him crucified.

PostmodernProphet
08-19-2009, 09:31 PM
What does Christ being a liberal have to do with me having good qualities?

I do of course , but I still do not see how that impacts Christ being a liberal?

because liberals don't have any of the qualities they claim they share with Christ.....

uscitizen
08-19-2009, 09:33 PM
because liberals don't have any of the qualities they claim they share with Christ.....

Wanting to help the poor? The homeless? the sick? Sound more like liberals or conservatives?

PostmodernProphet
08-19-2009, 09:34 PM
the conservatives at his time were the Jewish Church leaders who you had to pay in one for or another to gain favor with God.
Jesus offered a way around them. did not shun tainted ladies, let the children come unto me, etc. He even opened god/heaven to Gentiles. He was a liberal and it got him crucified.
His final liberal act of running the moneychangers out of the temple was the final straw that got him crucified.

and he promoted the killing of unborn children, favored the legalization of drugs and same sex marriage, and demanded that courthouses not display the Ten Commandments.....all sorts of liberal characteristics......

PostmodernProphet
08-19-2009, 09:37 PM
Wanting to help the poor? The homeless? the sick? Sound more like liberals or conservatives?

liberals merely exploit the poor so they can garner their votes.....they never do anything to actually help them.....it would destroy their voting base.....

uscitizen
08-19-2009, 09:38 PM
and he promoted the killing of unborn children, favored the legalization of drugs and same sex marriage, and demanded that courthouses not display the Ten Commandments.....all sorts of liberal characteristics......

He was a liberal for his time.

He sure as heck was not conservative. He never promoted wealth or war. He was truely compassionate. Provided free health care to the sick.


No he does not meet the current definition of liberal, but shares more traits than with conservatives.
Btw he may have been gay ;)

PostmodernProphet
08-19-2009, 09:42 PM
He was a liberal for his time.



no, he was God and he was a good man who did good things....calling him a liberal is an insult.....



Btw he may have been gay ;)
by the way, you may be even dumber than you look.....I bet you got that from Bruce, didn't you....lol....

uscitizen
08-19-2009, 10:35 PM
by the way, you may be even dumber than you look...

Dumber than my avitar?

Have you seen my actual picture? some on here have.

Minister of Truth
08-20-2009, 12:07 AM
Christ claimed to preach Absolute Truth. Liberals preach there is no such thing as truth, in hopes that their motives and actions cannot be labeled wrong, immoral, and unjust. He was definitely not a liberal. He believed in the scriptures, and actually followed a spiritual path. He actually was charitable - not just preaching from on high.

FUCK THE POLICE
08-20-2009, 12:19 AM
Christ claimed to preach Absolute Truth. Liberals preach there is no such thing as truth, in hopes that their motives and actions cannot be labeled wrong, immoral, and unjust. He was definitely not a liberal. He believed in the scriptures, and actually followed a spiritual path. He actually was charitable - not just preaching from on high.

No such thing as absolute truth. If you didn't at least believe in reasonable guesses, you couldn't do anything.

Canceled2
08-20-2009, 12:37 AM
Its simple - liberals aren't Christians. I laugh at any who call themselves such.

Actually, I know some classical liberals who are Christian's. Of course classical liberals are a rare kind of political bird. The Thomas Jefferson types.

Canceled2
08-20-2009, 12:41 AM
No such thing as absolute truth. If you didn't at least believe in reasonable guesses, you couldn't do anything.

It exists only with God. Man, being a liar, cannot live absolute truth, but he can comprehend its possibilities in Christ who is truth.

PostmodernProphet
08-20-2009, 06:07 AM
by the way, you may be even dumber than you look...

Dumber than my avitar?

Have you seen my actual picture? some on here have.

no, dumber than you appear from the perusal of your posts.....

Minister of Truth
08-20-2009, 01:16 PM
Actually, I know some classical liberals who are Christian's. Of course classical liberals are a rare kind of political bird. The Thomas Jefferson types.

And he wasn't much of a Christian. He was a serial hypocrite who often created his own doctrine. I really find him a difficult man to respect, if at all.

Cancel5
08-20-2009, 04:44 PM
once again midcan shows how ignorant he is....

there is nothing about christianity that says we must give the GOVERNMENT the power....christians all over the world give free healthcare....doctors without borders goes all over to help people....i could go on, but i have no doubt it will fall on deaf ears because those who have made up their minds about christians are blind and deaf as to any idea that does not comport with their preconcieved views

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, give to g(G)od what is g(G)od's?

Not all Christians aren't of the Golden Rule kind, they have their own brand.

Cancel5
08-20-2009, 04:50 PM
I find it odd that the liberals present a plan that leaves the poor saddled with a $10k family deductible and a 30% copay when they know the poor can't afford it....meanwhile, the liberals make sure they get the same coverage the poor can't afford, even if the liberals have the money to pay for it......strange way to "help their fellow man", isn't it........must be self-proclaimed progressives.....

This is the liberal plan, guess, I missed this one in the manual.

My current insurance company, the one the company chose for us, has a very high copay and deductible that most of the young families must pay for everything out of pocket, a real hardship for most of them.

Aren't our Congress people the ones who free health care, though most can afford to pay for it?

Aren't some companies being staggered by the cost of supplying good insurance for their employees and are passing the cost on to their employees?

I rather like the idea of Medicare for all with the private insurance agencies bidding for the plan! (Alaska state employees). It makes things very competitive! and a better deal for all!

Canceled2
08-20-2009, 04:50 PM
And he wasn't much of a Christian. He was a serial hypocrite who often created his own doctrine. I really find him a difficult man to respect, if at all.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that Jefferson was a Christian, only that he was a classical liberal.

I know a few Christians who would also define themselves as classical liberals/libertarians. Their views are interesting and compelling.

Cancel5
08-20-2009, 04:51 PM
Yeah, this is what I've been pushing myself.

I would expressly write into the legislation a "task force" or whatever you want to call it that has the goal to find out where this unprecedented increase in cost is coming from and resolve it.

I would also make it so that small companies could band together and create a larger pool for cheaper insurance. However, this is temporary. We need to decouple insurance from your employer to begin with, that's one of the worst deals that unions brought us, it keeps you stuck at your current employment for fear your "pre-existing conditions" wouldn't be covered.

Why aren't people fighting for this, because most don't understand the insurance they currently have and how it operates!

Damocles
08-20-2009, 05:18 PM
The government in this case would be the means to force people to give alms in whatever proscribed manner that the government deems "holy". You may believe you have a personal responsibility to help others, but it cannot be fulfilled through the faceless bureaucracy, even if you think you are absolved of that responsibility because of it.

IMO, this is what happened to the nuclear family after SS became the norm. The retirees were now "cared for" by that faceless bureaucracy, the next generation, now absolved, did not take care of them as the past generations had of their retirees, instead they were foisted into government subsidized housing and ignored. Yaaay government! Nowadays it is far more rare for a grandmother/grandfather to be in the house passing on the wisdom they used to share, it makes this generation foolhardy...

PostmodernProphet
08-20-2009, 05:33 PM
Why aren't people fighting for this, because most don't understand the insurance they currently have and how it operates!

because the vast majority of people have insurance that someone else pays for....thus, no incentive to investigate....

uscitizen
08-20-2009, 05:57 PM
because the vast majority of people have insurance that someone else pays for....thus, no incentive to investigate....

Nope. Refer to americans are stupid thread.

PostmodernProphet
08-20-2009, 06:25 PM
why, so I can watch you demonstrate it?.....

uscitizen
08-20-2009, 09:44 PM
why, so I can watch you demonstrate it?.....

don't you read your own posts?

Minister of Truth
08-20-2009, 10:46 PM
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that Jefferson was a Christian, only that he was a classical liberal.

I know a few Christians who would also define themselves as classical liberals/libertarians. Their views are interesting and compelling.

I actually don't care about Jefferson's theology. He did at least turn over federal buildings to Christian services on sundays during his presidency. I simply fucking hate him is all, for other reasons...

Jefferson creating his own doctrine was simply him being a product of the times, being an Enlightenment hobby for educated elites, just as Masonry was all the rage back then.

PostmodernProphet
08-21-2009, 05:54 AM
don't you read your own posts?

no, I write them....who writes yours?.....

Cancel5
08-21-2009, 03:07 PM
no, I write them....who writes yours?.....
I don't read my own posts, either, pretty boring!

Minister of Truth
08-21-2009, 04:17 PM
I don't read my own posts, either, pretty boring!

My posts rock! I read them and re-read them!!! :cool:

midcan5
08-21-2009, 04:30 PM
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi


"One thing we know, since you don't actually support a theocracy, is that you are certainly working to fit the religion into your political ideology.

"Its simple - liberals aren't Christians. I laugh at any who call themselves such.

"God does not condescend to human political platforms dork. I align myself with that political platform which best fits my world view.


"...only if you pretend you have some good qualities......to drag christ into these petty and stupid arguments is stupid...because liberals don't have any of the qualities they claim they share with Christ.....

"and he promoted the killing of unborn children, favored the legalization of drugs and same sex marriage, and demanded that courthouses not display the Ten Commandments.....all sorts of liberal characteristics......

liberals merely exploit the poor so they can garner their votes.....they never do anything to actually help them.....it would destroy their voting base.....

no, he was God and he was a good man who did good things....calling him a liberal is an insult....."

I thought the replies so telling I had to copy some for comment.

First, notice how conservatives play Gawd, they know what she wants and they know what she dislikes! Arrogant, you say!

Then they tell you Gawd isn't a part of this conversation, but then bang you over head with their Gawd's judgments! Hypocrite, you say.

Then they tell you what liberals do for the poor is bad, (perversity) as they do nothing at all. Phony, you say!

Then they tell you what Gawd did as man conforms with their beliefs and not yours! Presumptuous, you say!

Notice not one of the so called Christians addressed the original post which was written by a prominant Christian. How can one argue with such a lack of logic? As Barney Frank said so eloquently, "[Guys], trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table. I have no interest in doing it,"

"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried." Gilbert K. Chesterton

Amazon.com: Why Jesus Would Never, Ever Vote Republican (9781419697593): Richard John Siviur: Books

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 04:57 PM
the hypocrisy and stupidity of some liberals like madcan is humorous....they want religion left out of politics and government, yet use religion and jesus to make political points regarding how the government should be run.....

idiots

Minister of Truth
08-21-2009, 05:59 PM
Hey Midcan, did you bother to read any of the posts I made about how I reconcile being a Catholic in a country founded by secular protestants?

And yes, as to your quoting me poking fun at liberal Christians, I happen to believe its not possible for a liberal to follow the Christian religion. I don't presume to assume how God will judge Protestants and Orthodox, and even non-Christians, nor even how He will judge the millions of Catholics with whom I disagree on various issues of faith (and I imagine that you all are better off being judged by an all-knowing God rather then by me, who has only my faith that the scriptures say what ought to be believed).

Liberals have a most un-Christian view of the importance of the family, of the proper role of the Church in one's life, of how a person ought to submit to tradition and the authority of elders, of the value of human life, of the importance of material happiness vs. eternal happiness, and a whole host of issues. Liberal mores about sexuality will always be viewed by my Church as a disgrace and as a childish attempt to profane God.

I doubt many liberals even disagree with me on this. Most of you could care less about my faith and about Christianity, and yet here you go Midcan, being completely irrelevant as always.

Where myself and most other people on this board can see eye-to-eye, is that Americans need to live up to certain levels of morality, courage, principle, and character, because these things can be rationalized and because they promote the ideals of the American republic. It is only people that fight against such principles as Natural Rights, federalism, constitutionalism, Real Whig Ideology, and American sovereignty that I have hatred for.

PostmodernProphet
08-21-2009, 06:09 PM
/mumbles something about it being easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a camel than for a true liberal to enter into the kingdom.....

Minister of Truth
08-21-2009, 06:10 PM
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried." Gilbert K. Chesterton

Amazon.com: Why Jesus Would Never, Ever Vote Republican (9781419697593): Richard John Siviur: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Would-Never-Ever-Republican/dp/1419697595/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234527774&sr=1-1)

Well, at least you had a quote from Chesterton, which is worth some praise.

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Would-Never-Ever-Republican/product-reviews/1419697595/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar

midcan5
08-21-2009, 07:35 PM
Please take note anyone who comes here and can think and reason. Still no answers from the so called Christians on the original premise of this thread posed by a Christian. But personal comments, ad hominem, and off the wall comments abound.

Threedee, to say liberals are not Christians is equivalent to the woman saying Frank is supporting Nazi policy. It is just too dumb for real thought.

Seems 150 million people disagree with the few oddball wackos on JP.

"We created this website because we believe the historical, Biblically documented teachings of Jesus
Christ clearly show that Jesus is a Liberal. His philosophy, based in compassion, equality,
inclusion, forgiveness, tolerance, peace and - most importantly - love, is 100% Liberal.

For 20 years we have seen the growing domination of the radical right wing evangelicals on TV, on
the radio and in the news, newspapers and magazines and in politics - claiming to own a virtual
monopoly on Jesus. They have redefined what He meant and used His name to advance their
radical right wing social, business, governmental, political and military agenda - or as President
Bush calls it their just and righteous Crusade. We strongly object and disagree.

We reflect the views of over 150 million Liberal, Progressive, Tolerant and Independent thinking
Christians, Catholics, and others of all spiritual paths, religions and traditions in the USA and
Canada. Together, we reject the radical right wing Republican evangelicals' claims that they alone
represent the will, expression and blessing of Jesus Christ. We believe it is high time someone
stand up for the Liberal, Progressive, Tolerant and Independent thinking majority's position that any
plain reading of His words, any genuine interpretation of His intent, outline a Liberal, Progressive,
Tolerant, Loving and holistic world view."

http://www.jesusisaliberal.org/

Amazon.com: Jesus Was a Liberal: How the Conservative Agenda Is a Rejection of Christ's Teachings (9780965761062): Jerry Wilde: Books

Amazon.com: Jesus Was a Liberal: Reclaiming Christianity for All (9780230614291): Scotty McLennan: Books

Amazon.com: Perfect Freedom: Why Liberal Christianity Might Be the Faith You're Looking For (9781905047185): Brian Mountford: Books


"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." John Kenneth Galbraith

>

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 07:37 PM
Hey Midcan, did you bother to read any of the posts I made about how I reconcile being a Catholic in a country founded by secular protestants?

And yes, as to your quoting me poking fun at liberal Christians, I happen to believe its not possible for a liberal to follow the Christian religion. I don't presume to assume how God will judge Protestants and Orthodox, and even non-Christians, nor even how He will judge the millions of Catholics with whom I disagree on various issues of faith (and I imagine that you all are better off being judged by an all-knowing God rather then by me, who has only my faith that the scriptures say what ought to be believed).

Liberals have a most un-Christian view of the importance of the family, of the proper role of the Church in one's life, of how a person ought to submit to tradition and the authority of elders, of the value of human life, of the importance of material happiness vs. eternal happiness, and a whole host of issues. Liberal mores about sexuality will always be viewed by my Church as a disgrace and as a childish attempt to profane God.

I doubt many liberals even disagree with me on this. Most of you could care less about my faith and about Christianity, and yet here you go Midcan, being completely irrelevant as always.

Where myself and most other people on this board can see eye-to-eye, is that Americans need to live up to certain levels of morality, courage, principle, and character, because these things can be rationalized and because they promote the ideals of the American republic. It is only people that fight against such principles as Natural Rights, federalism, constitutionalism, Real Whig Ideology, and American sovereignty that I have hatred for.

why would you go this far, i always thought you were joking when you said that.....

the term is earthly and often one foisted upon us and sometimes not true at all....consider postidiotprofit calling me a liberal because i disagree with his understanding of the h/c bill....

further, there are many issues i am so called liberal on that do not necessarily mesh with many christians....homosexuality, drugs, meat, sex....i'm pretty liberal socially...i wouldn't lump a group and proclaim they cannot be christian....and you do realize you are calling your best friend maineman a non christian

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 07:38 PM
typical midcan.....just like DNC....no debate...ignores all that....and just continues with mindless talking points

PostmodernProphet
08-21-2009, 07:38 PM
....consider postidiotprofit calling me a liberal because i disagree with his understanding of the h/c bill....

????...no, I called you a liberal because you kept refusing to answer a simple question...remember?....I said you were turning into just another liberal.......it had nothing to do with your beliefs regarding the bill.....

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 07:45 PM
????...no, I called you a liberal because you kept refusing to answer a simple question...remember?....I said you were turning into just another liberal.......it had nothing to do with your beliefs regarding the bill.....

liar.....


I'm sorry, Yurt....I just don't consider the issues of acupuncture and chiropractic as big deals in the health care debate...if you think it's okay to surrender free enterprise to the government just because private companies can still write chiro and acupuncture policies so be it....but don't pretend you're not a liberal from here on out....you've sold out for free aspirin.....

Just Plain Politics! - View Single Post - APP - Emergency Rooms as Healthcare

PostmodernProphet
08-21-2009, 07:53 PM
and from twelve pages earlier....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yurt View Post
IOW....you aint got squat

you have enough time to tell me you're not into wasting your time, but you don't have enough time to actually answer my post with cites.....

amazing....especially given the largesse of the bill


??...dude, I've spent five pages trying to explain it to you....all I've gotten from you is "I don't believe it" or "you haven't convinced me"....what is this, channel a liberal week?... Just Plain Politics! - View Single Post - APP - Emergency Rooms as Healthcare

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 07:56 PM
nice try....you unambiguously claimed i was a liberal for selling out for an aspirin.....

your words convict you....your other words do nothing to alter your reasons in that post....

next

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 07:58 PM
since you edited:

lets look at your words....


you're not a liberal from here on out....you've sold out for free aspirin

nice try.....you fail

PostmodernProphet
08-21-2009, 07:58 PM
nice try....you unambiguously claimed i was a liberal for selling out for an aspirin.....

your words convict you....your other words do nothing to alter your reasons in that post....

next

you are turning into a stupid pile of crap....I guess you ARE a liberal.....

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 08:02 PM
you are turning into a stupid pile of crap....I guess you ARE a liberal.....

post 95 liar

"from here on out"

your words convict you....

i'm still the same.....i guess i just never knew you that well.....prick

PostmodernProphet
08-21-2009, 08:11 PM
take it however you want it, but it was a comment on your debating style.....what did you expect, dude....you were playing tag team with IBBIE!.....it was like reading a script excerpt from Dumb and Dumber.....

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 08:15 PM
take it however you want it, but it was a comment on your debating style.....what did you expect, dude....you were playing tag team with IBBIE!.....it was like reading a script excerpt from Dumb and Dumber.....

translation:

yurt is right, i'm just to dishonest to admit it......

and seriously, just because ib1 and i agree on some things, doesn't make me a liberal or him a conservative....you are fucking moron for even saying such things....you got your ass handed to you on the facts....that is the truth....i don't care if ib1 worships satan, if it just so happens that him and agree on the truth, doesn't mean i'm his camp, nor does it mean he is in my camp.....

you're like a 5 year old in a sandbox....oh noze joey agrees with johnney so their evil because they don't agree with me

and one more time to prove you're a liar (and if you would have said i forgot about that, i would have recanted, but you did not):


but don't pretend you're not a liberal from here on out

PostmodernProphet
08-21-2009, 08:17 PM
mit it......

and seriously, just because ib1 and i agree on some things, doesn't make me a liberal or him a conservative....

I agree....but failing to face an argument up front and wasting time playing silly gotcha games about minimums and acupuncture made you his equal....and it wasn't because you lifted him up......


you got your ass handed to you on the facts...
lol, neither of you ever even understood the facts....


and one more time to prove you're a liar

oh look, another "gotcha" moment.....you can't play gotcha, when you don't get it.....

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 08:31 PM
I agree....but failing to face an argument up front and wasting time playing silly gotcha games about minimums and acupuncture made you his equal....and it wasn't because you lifted him up......


lol, neither of you ever even understood the facts....



oh look, another "gotcha" moment.....you can't play gotcha, when you don't get it.....

you're a wuss.....anytime someone proves you lied or are wrong....it is just a gotcha moment.....

pathetic....why don't you be honest enough to admit you were wrong...instead of this wuss changing of your stance....

you're just like maineman in this regard.....hey....maybe you are maineman....he has so many niks

Minister of Truth
08-21-2009, 08:32 PM
why would you go this far, i always thought you were joking when you said that.....

the term is earthly and often one foisted upon us and sometimes not true at all....consider postidiotprofit calling me a liberal because i disagree with his understanding of the h/c bill....

further, there are many issues i am so called liberal on that do not necessarily mesh with many christians....homosexuality, drugs, meat, sex....i'm pretty liberal socially...i wouldn't lump a group and proclaim they cannot be christian....and you do realize you are calling your best friend maineman a non christian

I have no problem with those things being legal, Yurt, but obviously they are unChristian acts. Drugs, I think, would make America much better off, because of the inherent Darwinian effect they would have upon the body politick, and because it would be cheaper to end the War on Drugs, and more favorable to notions of freedom to boot.

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 08:43 PM
I have no problem with those things being legal, Yurt, but obviously they are unChristian acts. Drugs, I think, would make America much better off, because of the inherent Darwinian effect they would have upon the body politick, and because it would be cheaper to end the War on Drugs, and more favorable to notions of freedom to boot.

fair enough....since you mentioned drugs.....

do you think drinking alcohol is acceptable christian behavior? if so, then is marijuana ok? if not, why not? etc.....

Minister of Truth
08-21-2009, 08:51 PM
fair enough....since you mentioned drugs.....

do you think drinking alcohol is acceptable christian behavior? if so, then is marijuana ok? if not, why not? etc.....

Yes, because otherwise God would have smited the Irish long ago. :cool:

But seriously, part of my religion is drinking concecrated wine, and the Bible even depicts Christ and the Apostles drinking at parties, and we can infer, getting drunk, as wine from that part of the world can be quite potent.

As for weed, I have no idea. I've honesty never heard the Church teach about drugs...

I do know that liberalism would self-implode if it could get its hands on legal drugs, which is why I consider it a good thing.

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 09:32 PM
Yes, because otherwise God would have smited the Irish long ago. :cool:

But seriously, part of my religion is drinking concecrated wine, and the Bible even depicts Christ and the Apostles drinking at parties, and we can infer, getting drunk, as wine from that part of the world can be quite potent.

As for weed, I have no idea. I've honesty never heard the Church teach about drugs...

I do know that liberalism would self-implode if it could get its hands on legal drugs, which is why I consider it a good thing.

alcohol is a drug 3d......and the bible warns about its excess....and getting drunk.....just because the bible only mentions wine, i see no reason as to exclude the sweet plant....IMO, the plant is more pure than alcohol.....and if you want to equate the two....then use the bible's caution against alcohol or strong wine as i think the bible calls it

point being.....not only liberals partake of the heavenly herb....or so i am told

Damocles
08-21-2009, 09:33 PM
The Bible consistently says that wine is good, but not to get drunk.

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 09:40 PM
The Bible consistently says that wine is good, but not to get drunk.

you're wrong....

Cancel5
08-21-2009, 09:42 PM
alcohol is a drug 3d......and the bible warns about its excess....and getting drunk.....just because the bible only mentions wine, i see no reason as to exclude the sweet plant....IMO, the plant is more pure than alcohol.....and if you want to equate the two....then use the bible's caution against alcohol or strong wine as i think the bible calls it

point being.....not only liberals partake of the heavenly herb....or so i am told

Moderation is the key!

Damocles
08-21-2009, 09:47 PM
you're wrong....
I'm not.

http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcohol.html

Cancel 2018. 3
08-21-2009, 10:32 PM
I'm not.

http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcohol.html

i'm kidding

DamnYankee
08-22-2009, 07:02 AM
typical midcan.....just like DNC....no debate...ignores all that....and just continues with mindless talking points


????...no, I called you a liberal because you kept refusing to answer a simple question...remember?....I said you were turning into just another liberal.......it had nothing to do with your beliefs regarding the bill.....

Why don't you two just touch dicks and be friends?

DamnYankee
08-22-2009, 07:02 AM
The Bible consistently says that wine is good, but not to get drunk. What about Bombay Sapphire?

LadyT
08-22-2009, 07:19 AM
Yes, because otherwise God would have smited the Irish long ago. :cool:

But seriously, part of my religion is drinking concecrated wine, and the Bible even depicts Christ and the Apostles drinking at parties, and we can infer, getting drunk, as wine from that part of the world can be quite potent.

As for weed, I have no idea. I've honesty never heard the Church teach about drugs...

I do know that liberalism would self-implode if it could get its hands on legal drugs, which is why I consider it a good thing.
Because conservatives don't do drugs right?

PostmodernProphet
08-22-2009, 07:26 AM
Why don't you two just touch dicks and be friends?

sounds like you're accusing us BOTH of being liberals.....

Cancel 2018. 3
08-22-2009, 02:41 PM
Why don't you two just touch dicks and be friends?

is that what you proposed to homofrommaine?

Cancel5
08-22-2009, 02:43 PM
is that what you proposed to homofrommaine?
Now boys, why don't you all put your ovaries back in your purse, and quit having an issue with dicks and liberals!

Cancel 2018. 3
08-22-2009, 02:44 PM
Now boys, why don't you all put your ovaries back in your purse, and quit having an issue with dicks and liberals!

SM brought up the penis and having peniseses touch other peeeniseses

Cancel5
08-22-2009, 02:45 PM
I wouldn't consider him "heretical", unless I am also heretical....he's my favorite author and the inspiration for most of my theological positions....

ID is a wedgie, so she knows Conservative Christians! She has her name on the list of volunteers for the CAUSE at "C Street' if you know what I mean!

Cancel5
08-22-2009, 02:46 PM
because the vast majority of people have insurance that someone else pays for....thus, no incentive to investigate....

Good point and they don't want others to have this same option?

Back to the haves and have nots! Them and us...divide and conquer or concur?

Cancel5
08-22-2009, 02:48 PM
whambulance for the attack the drug industry folks.
They suck till you really need that pill.
dumbasses

Yeah, but why should I be a dumbass and pay more than Canada for the same drugs, sounds like you are the one who needs a pill! A chill pill!

Why should we pay more for drugs that we subsidize? I just don't get that, do you?

Cancel5
08-22-2009, 02:49 PM
Honestly, Mr. Midcan, I’m uncomfortable with Obama’s socialist death panels. I can’t support death panels, as a Christian. I believe in the culture of life.

I really don’t think we need socialist healthcare here. I’ve found that prayer is ALWAYS the best medicine. And if I need cheap prescription drugs, I just jet across the border to Canada or Mexico and hook myself up. Problem solved!

So, unless Obama’s socialist government insurance covers sensual massage therapy sessions, or gay conversion consultation, I can’t support it as a God-fearing Christian.



God Bless,

Ted

Ted does include your X? You are one great poster!

DamnYankee
08-22-2009, 05:55 PM
is that what you proposed to homofrommaine? I wouldn't touch his dick with your dick. *shrug*

DamnYankee
08-22-2009, 05:56 PM
sounds like you're accusing us BOTH of being liberals..... LOL

Cancel5
08-22-2009, 06:02 PM
LOL
Not YOU! I am sorry for ya! To be grouped with me, that is not something anyone wishes!

PostmodernProphet
08-22-2009, 06:12 PM
Good point and they don't want others to have this same option?

Back to the haves and have nots! Them and us...divide and conquer or concur?

I think everyone should pay for their own insurance....help people with the money to do it, if they need it, but engage them in the process of buying it......

Cancel5
08-23-2009, 05:23 PM
I think everyone should pay for their own insurance....help people with the money to do it, if they need it, but engage them in the process of buying it......

I don't disagree with that to a certain point, but it is just how to help them with the money part that screws us up, right?

uscitizen
08-23-2009, 11:15 PM
As I have been saying for years, the cons want to route tax money to private enterprise since they have pretty much saturated the market on consumers so to speak.

Buy your insurance but help you to buy it.

Hermes Thoth
08-24-2009, 05:24 AM
Why do conservatives find it necessary to make any excuse for not helping their fellow man? Whether it be clean air, minimum wage, social security, or welfare, they always manage to see the hole. Consider we all live for this brief moment and then are gone forever, why waste the moment, do something, and preferably do something good for all.

from the letter:

"But for almost that many years, I have been growing more and more deeply troubled by the way so many from my heritage in conservative Christianity – in its evangelical, charismatic, and Roman Catholic streams – have allowed themselves to be spiritually formed by various conservative political and economic ideologies. It’s been disturbing to see how many Christians have begun to follow and trust leaders who live more by political/media/ideological codes than by moral/spiritual/biblical ones.

As a result, I sometimes think that Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly, Glenn Beck, and Fox News may now influence many conservative evangelicals, charismatics, and Catholics more than Billy Graham, Rick Warren, T.D. Jakes, Pope Benedict, or even the four gospels.

Now in a free country, people certainly have the right to choose their ideology. But Christians of all sorts, I think we all can agree, have a special calling – to increasingly harmonize our lives (including our lives as citizens) with the teaching and example of Jesus. My concern is that many of my sisters and brothers, without realizing it, have begun seeing Jesus and the faith through the lens of a neo-conservative political framework, thus reducing their vision of Jesus and his essential message of the kingdom of God. As a result, too many of us are becoming more and more zealous conservatives, but less and less Christ-like Christians, and many don’t seem to notice the difference.

Thankfully, many Christian leaders are far more thoughtful and nuanced in their integration of faith and public life. They don’t jump on talk-radio’s latest conspiracy theory bandwagons, nor do they buy flippant talk of “death panels” or inappropriate comparisons to Hitler and so on. But still, so many of them remain silent about what’s going on, and thereby grant it tacit approval."


Many christians have abandoned organized churches precisely because of the thoughtful and NUANCED (anti-human) positions of modern church leadership.

they're all paid off masonic shills for the New world order. They learned about jesus from Bazooka Joe.

PostmodernProphet
08-24-2009, 05:41 AM
I don't disagree with that to a certain point, but it is just how to help them with the money part that screws us up, right?

not that I know of...we've always helped people in this country who didn't have enough money.....the only problem I'm aware of is the plan to completely restructure the health insurance industry.....have you seen anyone suggest that we just help poor people pay their bills?......I haven't........

Minister of Truth
08-24-2009, 08:39 AM
Many christians have abandoned organized churches precisely because of the thoughtful and NUANCED (anti-human) positions of modern church leadership.

they're all paid off masonic shills for the New world order. They learned about jesus from Bazooka Joe.

Its great gum, though, you gotta give it that.