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Don Quixote
08-18-2009, 12:20 AM
it looks like the dems have shot themselves in the foot over the public option for health care reform

this leaves the insurance companies to do what they like without serious competition - the proposed coops are insufficient

where are the no gender discrimination, no preexisting condition discrimination and no canceling if an insured gets seriously ill provisions

150 million in contributions to congress critters is paying off for the insurance companies

meme
08-18-2009, 12:26 AM
you have got to be kidding me, so the over 50% of the American people who are now against this, is now all being paid off by the insurance companies??

what don't you people NOT understand about people not wanting the Federal Government taking over the decisions about their HEALTH CARE..

ib1yysguy
08-18-2009, 12:31 AM
you have got to be kidding me, so the over 50% of the American people who are now against this, is now all paid off by the insurance companies??

what don't you people NOT understand about people not wanting the Federal Government taking over the decisions about their HEALTH CARE..

They're misinformed. They, like yourself, don't know why the hell they oppose it. They oppose it because they see some scary lies about killing grandma, death panels, etc. You still think the government is going to be "taking over" and making decisions for your healthcare. But you can't tell me how or where in HR 3200 it provides for such things.

You will not see a bill leave the house without a strong public option. It's guaranteed. What happens in the senate is anyone's guess.

My guess is all these sabres rattling about getting rid of the option is going to mobilize the liberal/progressive constituents to lobby heavily to get it back in, and the six obstructionist/enabling Democrats in the senate will cave by November.

The president will sign a bill with a strong public option.

meme
08-18-2009, 12:37 AM
They're misinformed. They, like yourself, don't know why the hell they oppose it. They oppose it because they see some scary lies about killing grandma, death panels, etc.

You will not see a bill leave the house without a strong public option. It's guaranteed. What happens in the senate is anyone's guess.

My guess is all these sabres rattling about getting rid of the option is going to mobilize the liberal/progressive constituents to lobby heavily to get it back in, and the six obstructionist/enabling Democrats in the senate will cave by November.

The president will sign a bill with a strong public option.

oh yeah that is right, we are all misinformed and the Democrats are all telling us the truth..
have you seen the latest polls...not many people consider themselves commies..I mean progressives..
my prediction, you all sign this bill against the wishes of the American people...I for one will be happy to see it..nice knowing you all in the failed and dead progressive-Democrat party..:clink:

ib1yysguy
08-18-2009, 12:42 AM
oh yeah that is right, we are all misinformed and the Democrats are all telling us the truth..
have you seen the latest polls...not many people consider themselves commies..I mean progressives..
my prediction, you all sign this bill against the wishes of the American people...I for one will be happy to see it..nice knowing you all in the failed and dead progressive-Democrat party..:clink:

If you're not misinformed, tell me how HR 3200 is a "take over" of your health decisions.

ib1yysguy
08-18-2009, 01:33 AM
(almost an hour later) I didn't think you could.

Mott the Hoople
08-18-2009, 04:25 AM
There can really be no meaningful reform of our health care system with out public option. Self centered special interest has triumphed over the national interest.

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 04:33 AM
They're misinformed.

if there is any misinformation involved, it can be laid squarely at the feet of the Democrats....after all, they were the ones that presented this plan and insisted on trying to pass it before it had even been read and certainly without any debate in Congress.....

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 04:34 AM
There can really be no meaningful reform of our health care system with out public option. Self centered special interest has triumphed over the national interest.

to be honest, I can live with a public option.....it was taking an axe to the private option that destroyed this plan.....

Don Quixote
08-18-2009, 06:29 AM
you have got to be kidding me, so the over 50% of the American people who are now against this, is now all being paid off by the insurance companies??

what don't you people NOT understand about people not wanting the Federal Government taking over the decisions about their HEALTH CARE..

first, by what poll

second, what about the millions receiving federal health care benefits, VA benefits and medicare benefits

not mention the private insurance committees that decide your health care

Topspin
08-18-2009, 07:01 AM
I think we need about 9 to 18 months more debate about it. That way cap and scheme is not in the works before the recovery takes hold.

Damocles
08-18-2009, 07:51 AM
I think we need about 9 to 18 months more debate about it. That way cap and scheme is not in the works before the recovery takes hold.
This would be an effective means of educating people as well, the ideas should be put out there and discussed and a consensus reached. Passing far-reaching legislation against the will of your constituency is a mistake of epic proportions when it happens right at the beginning of an election cycle. I don't believe that they will pass anything this year.

Canceled1
08-18-2009, 08:08 AM
This would be an effective means of educating people as well, the ideas should be put out there and discussed and a consensus reached. Passing far-reaching legislation against the will of your constituency is a mistake of epic proportions when it happens right at the beginning of an election cycle. I don't believe that they will pass anything this year.

Not according to Bob Beckel, Sr Political Analyst (Liberal) for, GASP!, FoxNews!

He so haughtily reported that it will be passed by the end of the year in his usual pompous-assed, brook no argument fashion.

If it doesn't, I can't wait to see that jackass squirm in his seat on national television as he spits and sputters about why those evil Repubs foiled a beautiful thing.

DamnYankee
08-18-2009, 08:52 AM
Obama tossed socialized medicine under the bus.

DamnYankee
08-18-2009, 08:53 AM
Not according to Bob Beckel, Sr Political Analyst (Liberal) for, GASP!, FoxNews!

He so haughtily reported that it will be passed by the end of the year in his usual pompous-assed, brook no argument fashion.
.... I hate that fat union thug bastard.

Canceled2
08-18-2009, 09:23 AM
first, by what poll

second, what about the millions receiving federal health care benefits, VA benefits and medicare benefits

not mention the private insurance committees that decide your health care

VA and Medicare? You mean taking care of people who have spent their whole life paying taxes? Or soldiers who sign up to risk their lives for country?

Mott the Hoople
08-18-2009, 09:41 AM
to be honest, I can live with a public option.....it was taking an axe to the private option that destroyed this plan.....I'm all for any meaningful compromises that will do that. Damn the partisans, both sides, damn them all to hell. A pox on both houses.

Mott the Hoople
08-18-2009, 09:42 AM
I think we need about 9 to 18 months more debate about it. That way cap and scheme is not in the works before the recovery takes hold.Not gonna happen. Obama is spending tons of political capital on this. He has essentially till the end of the year and then he has to concern himself with his political survival. If there's not bill presented by the end of the year, it's just not gonna happen.

Mott the Hoople
08-18-2009, 09:45 AM
This would be an effective means of educating people as well, the ideas should be put out there and discussed and a consensus reached. Passing far-reaching legislation against the will of your constituency is a mistake of epic proportions when it happens right at the beginning of an election cycle. I don't believe that they will pass anything this year.I agree with you in principle but the political realities pretty much doom the measure to happening this year. 2010 begins a new political cycle and congressional reps are going to be more concerned with getting re-elected with out having health care reform around their neck like a lead anchor.

Damocles
08-18-2009, 09:47 AM
I agree with you in principle but the political realities pretty much doom the measure to happening this year. 2010 begins a new political cycle and congressional reps are going to be more concerned with getting re-elected with out having health care reform around their neck like a lead anchor.
The new election cycle will begin this October, this has no real shot at passing because these people will fear for their jobs. Obama's political capital notwithstanding this will kill their shot at reelection if they ignore it, it is that unpopular.

Canceled1
08-18-2009, 09:48 AM
I hate that fat union thug bastard.

Ditto kiddo.

ZappasGuitar
08-18-2009, 10:43 AM
(almost an hour later) I didn't think you could.

You didn't honestly believe you'd get someone who's also a birther to give you a rational, reasonable answer did you?

OF COURSE they can't show how Government would be taking over the insurance industry.

That's why she has to re-post RightWing blogs, she hasn't had an original idea since she got here.

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 11:50 AM
I'm all for any meaningful compromises that will do that. Damn the partisans, both sides, damn them all to hell. A pox on both houses.

how about a bare bones public option and permit the private industry to sell an umbrella supplemental policy with a deductible equal to the public option.....basically the same approach they use for Medicare and Medicare Supplemental.....

Cancel 2018. 3
08-18-2009, 11:51 AM
If you're not misinformed, tell me how HR 3200 is a "take over" of your health decisions.

for starters....you are punished if you do not have health insurance....

Bonestorm
08-18-2009, 12:12 PM
how about a bare bones public option and permit the private industry to sell an umbrella supplemental policy with a deductible equal to the public option.....basically the same approach they use for Medicare and Medicare Supplemental.....


What you describe above is far, far more than what is currently being proposed relative to the "public option." The "public option" that is in the House bill (and as approved by the Senate HELP committee) is simply government provided health insurance with different tiers of coverage that competes with various privately offered health insurance options. People can either sign up for one of the government insurance plans or are free to sign up for whatever private coverage they want.

If you want more coverage than the "public option" provides there is no need to get supplemental private insurance, you can just not sign up for the "public option" and buy private insurance instead.

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 12:53 PM
People can either sign up for one of the government insurance plans or are free to sign up for whatever private coverage they want.
no private company could sell supplemental insurance under the current proposal....any private offering must include everything included in the public plan....

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 12:55 PM
If you want more coverage than the "public option" provides there is no need to get supplemental private insurance, you can just not sign up for the "public option" and buy private insurance instead.
which is the exact opposite of what I am proposing....in the Medicare, Medicare Supplemental situation the government plan covers the first dollars of damage and the supplemental only covers the amount after the government stops benefits.....it's like an umbrella liability policy, much cheaper since the first million or so in benefits is already covered by another policy....

think of it as health insurance with a million dollar deductible.....

Damocles
08-18-2009, 01:05 PM
no private company could sell supplemental insurance under the current proposal....any private offering must include everything included in the public plan....
Somewhat true, they could offer more coverage than any of the plans.

Damocles
08-18-2009, 01:06 PM
how about a bare bones public option and permit the private industry to sell an umbrella supplemental policy with a deductible equal to the public option.....basically the same approach they use for Medicare and Medicare Supplemental.....
What you describe here is much like the French plan.

Bonestorm
08-18-2009, 01:18 PM
which is the exact opposite of what I am proposing....in the Medicare, Medicare Supplemental situation the government plan covers the first dollars of damage and the supplemental only covers the amount after the government stops benefits.....it's like an umbrella liability policy, much cheaper since the first million or so in benefits is already covered by another policy....

think of it as health insurance with a million dollar deductible.....


You are basically talking about Medicare for all with supplemental insurance offered by private insurers. That's pretty much a non-starter in the current debate.

Mott the Hoople
08-18-2009, 01:39 PM
how about a bare bones public option and permit the private industry to sell an umbrella supplemental policy with a deductible equal to the public option.....basically the same approach they use for Medicare and Medicare Supplemental.....Isn't that the big idea behind the co-ops? Yea, I'd go for that. How do they know that co-ops won't work if they don't at least try the approach. I'd even approve a phased in approach for that to see if it works. You can always go back to the drawing board if it doesn't.

ib1yysguy
08-18-2009, 01:46 PM
Obama tossed socialized medicine under the bus.

Nah, he left the VA alone.

Bonestorm
08-18-2009, 02:14 PM
Isn't that the big idea behind the co-ops? Yea, I'd go for that. How do they know that co-ops won't work if they don't at least try the approach. I'd even approve a phased in approach for that to see if it works. You can always go back to the drawing board if it doesn't.


I don't think that is the idea behind the co-ops. My understanding of the co-op idea is to have a non-profit consumer owned insurance option that would compete with for-profit private insurers as opposed to having a government sponsored "public option" that would compete with private insurers.

Neither the "public option" nor the co-op idea is designed to replace private insurance. Instead, both are designed to be competitors to private insurance.

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 02:22 PM
Isn't that the big idea behind the co-ops? Yea, I'd go for that. How do they know that co-ops won't work if they don't at least try the approach. I'd even approve a phased in approach for that to see if it works. You can always go back to the drawing board if it doesn't.

coops isn't the same, as I understand it....

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 02:24 PM
Somewhat true, they could offer more coverage than any of the plans.

yes, but the problem is, they must offer everything the public plan does....that means they can offer nothing which isn't more expensive than the government plan.....you know as well as I do what the net effect of that is....

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 02:26 PM
You are basically talking about Medicare for all with supplemental insurance offered by private insurers. That's pretty much a non-starter in the current debate.

except that it doesn't have to be government paid for all....that is the obstacle....if you can afford your insurance, you pay for it.....

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 02:27 PM
Neither the "public option" nor the co-op idea is designed to replace private insurance. Instead, both are designed to be competitors to private insurance.
except that the problem was, they rigged the system so private insurance couldn't compete against the public.....

Bonestorm
08-18-2009, 02:32 PM
except that the problem was, they rigged the system so private insurance couldn't compete against the public.....


How so?

Bonestorm
08-18-2009, 02:34 PM
except that it doesn't have to be government paid for all....that is the obstacle....if you can afford your insurance, you pay for it.....


So it would be more like Meidcaid?

I don't quite understand what you are proposing.

DamnYankee
08-18-2009, 03:12 PM
Nah, he left the VA alone. Oh yeah, that great government run health care system. The one that fucked my uncle up so bad his leg injury turned into a two year stint, then they hooked him on morphine. My Dad refuses to go there, and paid for private insurance until he retired. *shrug*

Bonestorm
08-18-2009, 03:37 PM
Oh yeah, that great government run health care system. The one that fucked my uncle up so bad his leg injury turned into a two year stint, then they hooked him on morphine. My Dad refuses to go there, and paid for private insurance until he retired. *shrug*


Sorry to hear about your uncle. Though, as a general matter, the VA receives higher patient satisfaction ratings than the private sector.

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 03:40 PM
How so?

by specifying all insurance policies had to offer everything the public plan did....

Damocles
08-18-2009, 03:42 PM
by specifying all insurance policies had to offer everything the public plan did....

And if they did not they could keep those policies only until they needed a new policy. They were "grandfathered" only for those who currently hold those policies and their dependents.

If a company wanted to remain off exchange and sell new insurance they must at the least match that of the basic tier in the public option or they would not be "approved" and as such could not offer new policies. Again, the single 20 year old man is forced to pay for pregnancy coverage and cannot save their money by selecting a high deductible and choosing a HSP.

DamnYankee
08-18-2009, 03:44 PM
Sorry to hear about your uncle. Though, as a general matter, the VA receives higher patient satisfaction ratings than the private sector.
Hopefully they've improved in 40 years. Our troops deserve better than he got.

PostmodernProphet
08-18-2009, 03:48 PM
Hopefully they've improved in 40 years. Our troops deserve better than he got.

didn't they pass something a few years ago that gives vets the option of going to any hospital they want to and still get the bill covered?.....I know that was proposed.....

I think what it boils down to is that the VA has a well deserved reputation in dealing with severe traumatic injuries.....there are probably lots of civilian hospitals with better care for geriatric matters......