FINALLY! Fighting the smears

[christiefan915]

Here are the facts. Anyone can verify them by reading the bill at http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

Actual itemized contents of the Health Care Reform Bill:

"Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!"

TRUTH: This is not an "audit," it's a study. Moreover, the bill states (pp. 22-23) that the report will "include any recommendations the Commissioner deems appropriate to ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure or create adverse selection in the risk pools of large group insurers and self-insured employers." This is almost directly the opposite of the email's claim.

"Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!"

TRUTH: Page 29 continues to define the "essential benefits package" and discusses limits on what Americans will have to spend on health care under this minimum standard. In no way does this section stipulate the rationing of care.

"Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)"

TRUTH: Page 30 begins to describe the Health Benefits Advisory Committee which establishes certain minimum standards for health insurance plans. In no way does this committee deny treatments and benefits to Americans with health insurance.

"Page 42: The 'Health Choices Commissioner' will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None."

TRUTH: Page 42 begins to describe the Health Choices Commissioner's duties. The idea that this person will decide what benefits Americans receive is patently false, given that most Americans will keep their current plans under reform, and Americans within the exchange will have the choice of purchasing many different kinds of health plans. Rather, the Commissioner will establish minimum standards to protect Americans.

"Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services."

TRUTH: Pages 50-51 contain a provision stating that discrimination will not be allowed in the provision of health care services. Nowhere does the bill state that non-US citizens will be provided free health care services. The bill prohibits federal dollars from being used for undocumented immigrants.

"Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard."

TRUTH: Page 58, in the context of a discussion of administrative standards, mentions that "determination of an individual's financial responsibility at the point of service and, to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility...may include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card." In no way does the bill state that such a card would be national, or that it would be issued to every person, or that it would, in fact, be used at all.

"Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer."

TRUTH: Page 59 continues the discussion of administrative standards, and authorizes electronic transfers of money within the government. In no way does this provision grant the government access to individual bank accounts.

"Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)"

TRUTH: Here's what page 65 says: "Not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall establish a temporary reinsurance program to provide reimbursement to assist participating employment-based plans with the cost of providing health benefits to retirees and to eligible spouses, surviving spouses and dependents of such retirees." No mention is made of unions or community organizations.

"Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange."

TRUTH: That's true! Plans have to have a minimum standard of benefits, bat can offer other plans as well. But that's fair, isn't it? Private insurers can continue to operate outside the exchange if they wish - should the government establish no standards for the exchange? In that case, how could reform end insurance industry abuses and help to control costs?

"Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)"

TRUTH: This section says is that if private health care plans want to operate in the Exchange, they must provide a basic benefit package.

"Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens"

TRUTH: Some American citizens are more comfortable speaking a language other than English, especially in a sensitive situation like a consultation with their doctor. This provision in no way opens the door for coverage of undocumented workers.

"Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan."

TRUTH: Page 95 makes no mention of ACORN and Americorps; all it says is that the Commissioner can conduct outreach to vulnerable populations, making them aware of their options.

"Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter."

TRUTH: People who are eligible for Medicaid will not have to face the burdens of paperwork and other bureaucratic struggles. Far from depriving people of choice, this measure will ensure coverage.

"Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No 'judicial review' is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed."

TRUTH: This section describes rate-setting under the public health insurance plan option, which will compete with private insurers, who can set their own rates. Because of inherent advantages like their established administrative and provider frameworks, private insurance companies will not be "crushed" by government competition.

"Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages."

TRUTH: The government will negotiate rates with providers under the public health insurance plan option. However, private insurers will continue to pay their own rates.

"Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives."

TRUTH: This is simply not true. Employers with more than 20 employees aren't even eligible to participate in the exchange, let alone the public plan, until several years after the exchange launches in 2013. Moreover, no employer will be forced to participate in the public plan.

"Page 146: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families."

TRUTH: Employers are required to pay some benefits for part-time employees on a basis proportional to what they pay for full-time employees. No language on this page or the next stipulates coverage for the families of part-time employees.

"Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll"

TRUTH: The payroll penalty applies to employers with payroll over $500,000 who do not provide insurance to their employees. The percentage for employers with payroll from $500,000 - $750,000 is 6%. Employers do not have to offer the public option to avoid this penalty, they can offer private insurance if they wish.

"Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll"

TRUTH: This is false, see above.

"Page 167: Any individual who doesn't' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income."

TRUTH: Pages 167-173 detail what "acceptable health care" means (basically, insurance coverage) and also allow for many different kinds of exceptions to this rule.

"Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them)."

TRUTH: Non-resident aliens do not have to pay the penalty for not having health insurance, nor will the receive federal assistance, because they are not required to purchase health insurance. They are not exempted from individual taxes generally.

"Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records."

TRUTH: This is a gross overstatement. For the purposes of determining affordability credits for Americans who need financial assistance in purchasing health insurance, employees of the Health Choices Administration will have access to tax information that the federal government already keeps. As is clearly stated on page 196, "Return information... may be used by officers and employees of the Health Choices Administration or such State-based health insurance exchange, as the case may be, only for the purposes of, and to the extent necessary in, establishing and verifying the appropriate amount of any affordability credit described in subtitle C of title II of the America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 and providing for the repayment of any such credit which was in excess of such appropriate amount.''

"Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that."

TRUTH: This quote is taken out of context, and is in fact referring to a calculation used in the bill. Full context of quote: "'(4) NOT TREATED AS TAX IMPOSED BY THIS CHAPTER FOR CERTAIN PURPOSES.-The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax imposed by this chapter for purposes of determining the amount of any credit under this chapter or for purposes of section 55.''

"Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."

TRUTH: This section has nothing whatsoever to do with reducing services. It makes much needed changes to the way in which physician reimbursement is recalculated every year. The bill will, in fact, create much more opportunity for seniors and the poor to receive necessary care.

"Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)"

TRUTH: Page 241 does not say this. Nowhere does it say this. It does say that physicians will be grouped into certain categories regardless of specialty. These categories merely determine if the physician is engaged in primarily therapeutic or preventative care.

"Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc."

TRUTH: There is no good response to this assertion as it appears to have been made up completely. The section deals with 'misvalued codes' meaning that the government is potentially not paying an acceptable rate for a specific service. This will allow the government to, for example, pay more for services that require more payment, such as high-overhead procedures. The author of these criticisms separately attacks the bill for paying the same rate to all doctors, then attacks again for paying different rates.

"Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries."

TRUTH: This section amends the Social Security Act to include productivity measures. There is no mandate or control of anything. This merely updates the way in which doctors and hospitals are paid through Medicare.

"Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs."

TRUTH: This is simply not true. This slightly amends existing guidelines for payments for medical equipment, in this case power-driven wheelchairs. This section introduces no 'regulations' that are not in the Social Security Act.

"Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!"

TRUTH: Overusage of the hot-button word "rationing" is a way to deflect attention away from the actual language of the bill and incite unjustified fear. This section only compares costs incurred by cancer hospitals to costs incurred by similar hospitals, and adjusts payments to reduce the possibility of fraud and abuse.

"Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions."

TRUTH: This is almost correct. The section is one of the first efforts at targeting excessive readmissions. Excessive readmissions are physically and emotionally damaging to patients, while simultaneously putting them, and the health care system, in far more financial risk than is necessary. The American Hospital Association recommended reduced payments for avoidable readmission in testimony to Congress.


"Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government."

TRUTH: This is patently false. The section is about possible methods that the Secretary of Health and Human services might consider in order to address the growing problem of patient readmission. This section does not, in any way, create a penalty, nor does it even mandate policy. It merely provides examples of recourses that might be considered.

"Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited from owning and investing in healthcare companies!"

TRUTH: This provision only limits Doctor's investments in health care facilities that they refer patients to The effort to limit self-referral has been ongoing for many years as an effort to reduce fraud and abuse. This is, essentially, the medical community equivalent of insider trading. Limiting this incentive works to put the patient's health above all other considerations. Doctors remain free to engage in investment opportunities in areas that don't create a significant conflict of interest.

"Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval."

TRUTH: This section regulates physicians' investment in hospitals to make sure that physicians are not unfairly benefiting from their power to refer patients to hospitals they have a stake in. The section does not prohibit hospital expansion.

"Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on 'community' input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN."

TRUTH: In the ongoing effort to demonize community-based groups such as ACORN, every instance of the word "community" has become associated with that group's efforts. In reality, this provision allows for anyone to provide input. This includes homeowners, religious leaders, neighborhood groups, and others. There are no payoffs. There is no money exchanged in any way.

"Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing."

TRUTH: This provision is included in order to allow the government to base payments on practices that work. Nowhere does it say health care will be rationed. The attempt to isolate what works and what does not work in Medicare Advantage plans only benefits the health care system in general.

"Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc."

TRUTH: The government can disqualify some Medicare Advantage Plans from receiving some additional payments, but only if those plans are not meeting necessary requirements.

"Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals."

TRUTH: This section only deals with how to handle special needs individuals who need to enroll outside of the open enrollment period. Almost every type of plan operates with open enrollment periods. This section does not create more restrictions.

"Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone)."

TRUTH: This section merely expands existing Telehealth programs, which supplement but do not replace other health coverage, and provide a vital resource to Americans in rural and remote areas.

"Page 425-430: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?; Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time; Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death; Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends; Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT; Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life."

TRUTH: All of these hysterical claims have been debunked elsewhere. HR3200 provides for the reimbursement of a voluntary session of end-of-life counseling with your physician once every five years. This in no way means the government will make decisions for patients or encourage doctor-assisted suicide. Counseling simply makes patients and their families aware of their options.

"Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN."

TRUTH: ACORN is not a Community-Based Medical Home.

"Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN."

TRUTH: This is clearly still referring to community health groups, not ACORN.

"Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage."

TRUTH: Covering marriage and family therapy, as many private insurance plans do, does not mean that the government "intervenes in your marriage." The types of individuals who are recognized as therapists are clearly defined on page 491; in brief, professionals only, not bureaucrats.

"Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services."

TRUTH: This section expands government coverage for mental health services under various government programs, and ensures that all mental health services will be offered by qualified professionals.

http://fightthesmears.com/

[PostmodernProphet]

http://fightthesmears.com/

from the bottom of the page...."A Project of the Democratic National Committee".....just another astroturfer......

[Cancel 2018. 3]

to much "organized" response from funded democrats to reply all at once....and libs whine about astroturf:


"Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc."

TRUTH: The government can disqualify some Medicare Advantage Plans from receiving some additional payments, but only if those plans are not meeting necessary requirements.

who decides what is necessary? this is exactly what people are concerned about...the government having that authority and that authority only expanding with time as we all know the government just keeps taking and taking more and more power over our individual lives


"Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions."

TRUTH: This is almost correct. The section is one of the first efforts at targeting excessive readmissions. Excessive readmissions are physically and emotionally damaging to patients, while simultaneously putting them, and the health care system, in far more financial risk than is necessary. The American Hospital Association recommended reduced payments for avoidable readmission in testimony to Congress.

once again, NOT good, see above and almost correct....weak


"Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services."

TRUTH: Pages 50-51 contain a provision stating that discrimination will not be allowed in the provision of health care services. Nowhere does the bill state that non-US citizens will be provided free health care services. The bill prohibits federal dollars from being used for undocumented immigrants.

i want a specific cite to this claim


"Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!"

TRUTH: This is not an "audit," it's a study. Moreover, the bill states (pp. 22-23) that the report will "include any recommendations the Commissioner deems appropriate to ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure or create adverse selection in the risk pools of large group insurers and self-insured employers." This is almost directly the opposite of the email's claim.

this is just plain stupid....not an audit but a study....fail....get better talking points

[christiefan915]

to much "organized" response from funded democrats to reply all at once....and libs whine about astroturf:



who decides what is necessary? this is exactly what people are concerned about...the government having that authority and that authority only expanding with time as we all know the government just keeps taking and taking more and more power over our individual lives

once again, NOT good, see above and almost correct....weak

i want a specific cite to this claim

this is just plain stupid....not an audit but a study....fail....get better talking points

LOL, you're too much. Apparently you've swallowed unquestioningly the original list from some RW hack but suddenly get all scrupulous when the lies are rebutted.

I gave you the site that debunks the smears. Look it up for yourself, I'm not going to spoon-feed you. :pke:

[christiefan915]

from the bottom of the page...."A Project of the Democratic National Committee".....just another astroturfer......


"Fleckman" ... just another uncredentialed RW hack...

* Name Peter Fleckenstein
* Location Phoenix, AZ
* Web http://blog.fleck...
* Bio Husband, father of 2, frmr Marine, lover of beach, flecksoflife.com

[Damocles]

"Fleckman" ... just another uncredentialed RW hack...

* Name Peter Fleckenstein
* Location Phoenix, AZ
* Web http://blog.fleck...
* Bio Husband, father of 2, frmr Marine, lover of beach, flecksoflife.com
But not the RNC... There is a difference. Astroturfing your way into the hearts and minds of the kool-aid drinkers.

[Cancel 2018. 3]

LOL, you're too much. Apparently you've swallowed unquestioningly the original list from some RW hack but suddenly get all scrupulous when the lies are rebutted.

I gave you the site that debunks the smears. Look it up for yourself, I'm not going to spoon-feed you. :pke:

1. i never saw the list that you posted in any of your links

2. i refuted a few of your so called rebuttals...but you conveniently ignore that....

wtf are you on?

[christiefan915]

But not the RNC... There is a difference. Astroturfing your way into the hearts and minds of the kool-aid drinkers.

Well, here ya go. The official RNC astroturf site for the RW kool-aid drinkers.

http://barackobamaexperiment.com/

Wonder if the word "astroturf" will suddenly get dropped from RW criticisms now?

[christiefan915]

1. i never saw the list that you posted in any of your links

2. i refuted a few of your so called rebuttals...but you conveniently ignore that....

wtf are you on?

I'm only on coffee. Apparently you're on the stronger stuff.

The "list" is included in the first post. It's all the numbered items from the twitter hack. The rebuttals are under the numbered items and prefaced with the word "Truth".

Next!

[Damocles]

Well, here ya go. The official RNC astroturf site for the RW kool-aid drinkers.

http://barackobamaexperiment.com/
Which again, is not Fleckman. You are having a hard time with this, I understand, but there's nothing wrong with just saying, "Yes, I am a kook-aid drinking zombot!" and getting it over with.

[christiefan915]

Which again, is not Fleckman. You are having a hard time with this, I understand, but there's nothing wrong with just saying, "Yes, I am a kook-aid drinking zombot!" and getting it over with.

Yes, I'm having trouble with the cobwebs you're spinning so let me get this straight:

Obama site fightthesmears.org = astroturf

Fleckman twitter = not astroturf

RNC site barackobamaexperiment.com = not astroturf

Is this what you're getting at?

[Damocles]

Yes, I'm having trouble with the cobwebs you're spinning so let me get this straight:

Obama site fightthesmears.org = astroturf

Fleckman twitter = not astroturf

RNC site barackobamaexperiment.com = not astroturf

Is this what you're getting at?
LOL. DNC written propaganda = astroturf.

Fleckman =/= RNC written propaganda.

Your attempt to equate one man with the entirety of the RNC is hilarious, but non-consequential to the discussion. Other than showing you have a total incapacity to understand the difference between one man and an organization. The attempt is to direct attention away from the fact that your pants are down.

[Cancel 2018. 3]

I'm only on coffee. Apparently you're on the stronger stuff.

The "list" is included in the first post. It's all the numbered items from the twitter hack. The rebuttals are under the numbered items and prefaced with the word "Truth".

Next!

see post 3....i countered a few of yoru so called truths....how can you say i did not? i used the quote function to make it easy for you.... i suggest you go back and review post 3 and stop making a fool out of yourself

[christiefan915]

LOL. DNC written propaganda = astroturf.

Fleckman =/= RNC written propaganda.

Your attempt to equate one man with the entirety of the RNC is hilarious, but non-consequential to the discussion. Other than showing you have a total incapacity to understand the difference between one man and an organization. The attempt is to direct attention away from the fact that your pants are down.

The only spinner here is you, with your convenient disregard of the RNC website that's doing virtually the same thing as the DNC one, while claiming that my big concern is the twitter hack.

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Let the RNC know your biggest concern with government-run health care.

Share Your Concerns

http://barackobamaexperiment.com/

[Damocles]

The only spinner here is you, with your convenient disregard of the RNC website that's doing virtually the same thing as the DNC one, while claiming that my big concern is the twitter hack.

Donate!
How it affects you

Advocacy Tools:
SocialTwist
Tell-a-Friend
radio
newspapers
elected-officials

Let the RNC know your biggest concern with government-run health care.

Share Your Concerns

http://barackobamaexperiment.com/
You make me laugh again.

The RNC website is a distraction because you were caught with your pants down at the kool-aid fountain with a DNC website whispering in your ear. Your attempt at equivalence failed, it's time to move on.

Each time you attempt the same distraction I will bring up the fact that your answer to one man was the kool-aid fountain and then an attempt at distraction as you tried to pull up your pants.

[christiefan915]

see post 3....i countered a few of yoru so called truths....how can you say i did not? i used the quote function to make it easy for you.... i suggest you go back and review post 3 and stop making a fool out of yourself

What you said was that you never saw a list. I also told you I wasn't going to spoon-feed you info that you can find on websites.

If you don't like the responses, go to this site, which put out the rebuttals:

http://healthcareforamericanow.org/

Looks like you're getting frazzled, since your usual descent into pettiness has started. :rolleyes:

[Canceled1]

LOL. DNC written propaganda = astroturf.

Fleckman =/= RNC written propaganda.

Your attempt to equate one man with the entirety of the RNC is hilarious, but non-consequential to the discussion. Other than showing you have a total incapacity to understand the difference between one man and an organization. The attempt is to direct attention away from the fact that your pants are down.


:rofl:

Hide the family dog!

[Cancel 2018. 3]

What you said was that you never saw a list. I also told you I wasn't going to spoon-feed you info that you can find on websites.

If you don't like the responses, go to this site, which put out the rebuttals:

http://healthcareforamericanow.org/

Looks like you're getting frazzled, since your usual descent into pettiness has started. :rolleyes:

what are you on this morning? there is no pettiness by me....i am simply pointing out that you are ignoring my refutations in post three while claiming i ignored yours.....

i never said i did not see a list in post #3...that is a lie...i later said your links did not show the list....however that did not stop me from countering your so called truths in post #3 (which you continue to ignore and act like i never countered your false "truths")and now you're wimping out....telling me that i can't counter truths that you put up, i must go to some other website to debate that....

go and cry for more talking points....wimp

[christiefan915]

You make me laugh again.

The RNC website is a distraction because you were caught with your pants down at the kool-aid fountain with a DNC website whispering in your ear. Your attempt at equivalence failed, it's time to move on.

Each time you attempt the same distraction I will bring up the fact that your answer to one man was the kool-aid fountain and then an attempt at distraction as you tried to pull up your pants.

You can say anything you want but that doesn't make your opinion either truthful or valid. People are spreading the twitter hack's postings on liberal websites, and most of his comments are "pants on fire" lies. If a clearinghouse like Politifact gets involved, it's clear that the "one man" has a lot more influence than you'd like to pretend.

E-mail 'analysis' of health bill needs a check-up
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jul/30/e-mail-analysis-health-bill-needs-check-/

You made the comment that fleckman wasn't the same as the RNC: "But not the RNC... There is a difference. Astroturfing your way into the hearts and minds of the kool-aid drinkers." ... so I decided to check if the RNC had their own site, and they did. Now you're crying that I shouldn't have brought them up, yet it's only because it's clear that the RNC has mobilized to do the very same thing the DNC is doing so you can't accuse one of atroturfing without applying the term to the other.

Tighten your own belt, your comments are ridiculous in the face of the RNC's actions.

[Damocles]

You can say anything you want but that doesn't make your opinion either truthful or valid. People are spreading the twitter hack's postings on liberal websites, and most of his comments are "pants on fire" lies. If a clearinghouse like Politifact gets involved, it's clear that the "one man" has a lot more influence than you'd like to pretend.

E-mail 'analysis' of health bill needs a check-up
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jul/30/e-mail-analysis-health-bill-needs-check-/

You made the comment that fleckman wasn't the same as the RNC: "But not the RNC... There is a difference. Astroturfing your way into the hearts and minds of the kool-aid drinkers." ... so I decided to check if the RNC had their own site, and they did. Now you're crying that I shouldn't have brought them up, yet it's only because it's clear that the RNC has mobilized to do the very same thing the DNC is doing so you can't accuse one of atroturfing without applying the term to the other.

Tighten your own belt, your comments are ridiculous in the face of the RNC's actions.
What it makes is everybody realize that astroturfing works for zombots and distraction doesn't work for those who weren't at the fountain, we're still pointing and laughing.

Yes, I made the point that Fleckman wasn't the RNC and isn't the equivalent of a DNC propaganda site, because it isn't. Your answer? "But-but-but, there is an RNC site..." has no relevance here. They do it too is a confession, not an excuse.

[christiefan915]

what are you on this morning? there is no pettiness by me....i am simply pointing out that you are ignoring my refutations in post three while claiming i ignored yours.....

i never said i did not see a list in post #3...that is a lie...i later said your links did not show the list....however that did not stop me from countering your so called truths in post #3 (which you continue to ignore and act like i never countered your false "truths")and now you're wimping out....telling me that i can't counter truths that you put up, i must go to some other website to debate that....

go and cry for more talking points....wimp

"Obtuse" doesn't bode well for you. "1. i never saw the list that you posted in any of your links" I never said the list was in the link. It was incorporated into the post, and also in the "Finally" thread, which you've also been arguing on.

I also told you that my post came from this website and if you're not satisfied with their comments, go and read it: http://healthcareforamericanow.org/

Your pettiness is clear in your reliance on words and phrases like "wimp", "weak", "fail", "plain stupid", "get better talking points", "wtf are you on", "stop making a fool out of yourself", ad nauseum.

Grow up already, it's getting harder and harder to take seriously anything your write.

[Cancel 2018. 3]

why are you even posting in this section? if all you want to do is give other people's opinions, then post those and stfu....it is the height of stupidity to post others opinions on this site, then when those opinions are countered on this site to go all nutso claiming nobody countered and is ignoring you and then to have the kahunas to say, don't debate here, take it up with that site....

you said:


LOL, you're too much. Apparently you've swallowed unquestioningly the original list from some RW hack but suddenly get all scrupulous when the lies are rebutted.

I gave you the site that debunks the smears. Look it up for yourself, I'm not going to spoon-feed you

you lied that i accepted any list unquestioningly....then you stupidly said look up the rebuttals, you're not going to spoon feed me after i already countered a few of your truths...

you are making absolutely zero sense in this thread and your refusal to debate the counter points i have given you shows you are incapable of actually debating the issue and rely solely on other people's talking points....

[christiefan915]

What it makes is everybody realize that astroturfing works for zombots and distraction doesn't work for those who weren't at the fountain, we're still pointing and laughing.

Yes, I made the point that Fleckman wasn't the RNC and isn't the equivalent of a DNC propaganda site, because it isn't. Your answer? "But-but-but, there is an RNC site..." has no relevance here. They do it too is a confession, not an excuse.

"We?" You and your bees? :cof1:

Typical of you to conflate two separate comments in an attempt to cloud the fact that the RNC is astroturfing on their own website in an attempt to counter DNC site.

Bet you were pretty surprised to find that they're not above using the same methods for their own purposes.

[Damocles]

"We?" You and your bees? :cof1:

Typical of you to conflate two separate comments in an attempt to cloud the fact that the RNC is astroturfing on their own website in an attempt to counter DNC site.

Bet you were pretty surprised to find that they're not above using the same methods for their own purposes.
Me, my bees, and the rest of the board.

The "separateness" of the comments are simply a distraction. It is pointed out to you that this is astroturf and you attempt to say, 'but they do it too.' and distract from the fact that you had to find a different site for that, that the only person who resorted to astroturf was you.

And I am unsurprised at astroturfing, I simply point out that you are the only one that used it here and again we all stand laughing as you keep trying to distract from the pants around your ankles.

Can you find an opinion that supports yours that is not from the official propaganda machine of your party, or will you just live with it turn and take some more drinks from the fountain? I know it is hard for an addict to stop...

[FUCK THE POLICE]

who decides what is necessary? this is exactly what people are concerned about...the government having that authority and that authority only expanding with time as we all know the government just keeps taking and taking more and more power over our individual lives



Necessary for the minimum health coverage? I would guess society would do that, Yurt. Who did you expect to do that?

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Here are the facts. Anyone can verify them by reading the bill at http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

Actual itemized contents of the Health Care Reform Bill:

"Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!"

TRUTH: This is not an "audit," it's a study. Moreover, the bill states (pp. 22-23) that the report will "include any recommendations the Commissioner deems appropriate to ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure or create adverse selection in the risk pools of large group insurers and self-insured employers." This is almost directly the opposite of the email's claim.

"Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!"

TRUTH: Page 29 continues to define the "essential benefits package" and discusses limits on what Americans will have to spend on health care under this minimum standard. In no way does this section stipulate the rationing of care.

"Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)"

TRUTH: Page 30 begins to describe the Health Benefits Advisory Committee which establishes certain minimum standards for health insurance plans. In no way does this committee deny treatments and benefits to Americans with health insurance.

"Page 42: The 'Health Choices Commissioner' will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None."

TRUTH: Page 42 begins to describe the Health Choices Commissioner's duties. The idea that this person will decide what benefits Americans receive is patently false, given that most Americans will keep their current plans under reform, and Americans within the exchange will have the choice of purchasing many different kinds of health plans. Rather, the Commissioner will establish minimum standards to protect Americans.

"Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services."

TRUTH: Pages 50-51 contain a provision stating that discrimination will not be allowed in the provision of health care services. Nowhere does the bill state that non-US citizens will be provided free health care services. The bill prohibits federal dollars from being used for undocumented immigrants.

"Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard."

TRUTH: Page 58, in the context of a discussion of administrative standards, mentions that "determination of an individual's financial responsibility at the point of service and, to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility...may include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card." In no way does the bill state that such a card would be national, or that it would be issued to every person, or that it would, in fact, be used at all.

"Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer."

TRUTH: Page 59 continues the discussion of administrative standards, and authorizes electronic transfers of money within the government. In no way does this provision grant the government access to individual bank accounts.

"Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)"

TRUTH: Here's what page 65 says: "Not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall establish a temporary reinsurance program to provide reimbursement to assist participating employment-based plans with the cost of providing health benefits to retirees and to eligible spouses, surviving spouses and dependents of such retirees." No mention is made of unions or community organizations.

"Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange."

TRUTH: That's true! Plans have to have a minimum standard of benefits, bat can offer other plans as well. But that's fair, isn't it? Private insurers can continue to operate outside the exchange if they wish - should the government establish no standards for the exchange? In that case, how could reform end insurance industry abuses and help to control costs?

"Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)"

TRUTH: This section says is that if private health care plans want to operate in the Exchange, they must provide a basic benefit package.

"Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens"

TRUTH: Some American citizens are more comfortable speaking a language other than English, especially in a sensitive situation like a consultation with their doctor. This provision in no way opens the door for coverage of undocumented workers.

"Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan."

TRUTH: Page 95 makes no mention of ACORN and Americorps; all it says is that the Commissioner can conduct outreach to vulnerable populations, making them aware of their options.

"Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter."

TRUTH: People who are eligible for Medicaid will not have to face the burdens of paperwork and other bureaucratic struggles. Far from depriving people of choice, this measure will ensure coverage.

"Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No 'judicial review' is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed."

TRUTH: This section describes rate-setting under the public health insurance plan option, which will compete with private insurers, who can set their own rates. Because of inherent advantages like their established administrative and provider frameworks, private insurance companies will not be "crushed" by government competition.

"Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages."

TRUTH: The government will negotiate rates with providers under the public health insurance plan option. However, private insurers will continue to pay their own rates.

"Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives."

TRUTH: This is simply not true. Employers with more than 20 employees aren't even eligible to participate in the exchange, let alone the public plan, until several years after the exchange launches in 2013. Moreover, no employer will be forced to participate in the public plan.

"Page 146: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families."

TRUTH: Employers are required to pay some benefits for part-time employees on a basis proportional to what they pay for full-time employees. No language on this page or the next stipulates coverage for the families of part-time employees.

"Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll"

TRUTH: The payroll penalty applies to employers with payroll over $500,000 who do not provide insurance to their employees. The percentage for employers with payroll from $500,000 - $750,000 is 6%. Employers do not have to offer the public option to avoid this penalty, they can offer private insurance if they wish.

"Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll"

TRUTH: This is false, see above.

"Page 167: Any individual who doesn't' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income."

TRUTH: Pages 167-173 detail what "acceptable health care" means (basically, insurance coverage) and also allow for many different kinds of exceptions to this rule.

"Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them)."

TRUTH: Non-resident aliens do not have to pay the penalty for not having health insurance, nor will the receive federal assistance, because they are not required to purchase health insurance. They are not exempted from individual taxes generally.

"Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records."

TRUTH: This is a gross overstatement. For the purposes of determining affordability credits for Americans who need financial assistance in purchasing health insurance, employees of the Health Choices Administration will have access to tax information that the federal government already keeps. As is clearly stated on page 196, "Return information... may be used by officers and employees of the Health Choices Administration or such State-based health insurance exchange, as the case may be, only for the purposes of, and to the extent necessary in, establishing and verifying the appropriate amount of any affordability credit described in subtitle C of title II of the America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 and providing for the repayment of any such credit which was in excess of such appropriate amount.''

"Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that."

TRUTH: This quote is taken out of context, and is in fact referring to a calculation used in the bill. Full context of quote: "'(4) NOT TREATED AS TAX IMPOSED BY THIS CHAPTER FOR CERTAIN PURPOSES.-The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax imposed by this chapter for purposes of determining the amount of any credit under this chapter or for purposes of section 55.''

"Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."

TRUTH: This section has nothing whatsoever to do with reducing services. It makes much needed changes to the way in which physician reimbursement is recalculated every year. The bill will, in fact, create much more opportunity for seniors and the poor to receive necessary care.

"Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)"

TRUTH: Page 241 does not say this. Nowhere does it say this. It does say that physicians will be grouped into certain categories regardless of specialty. These categories merely determine if the physician is engaged in primarily therapeutic or preventative care.

"Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc."

TRUTH: There is no good response to this assertion as it appears to have been made up completely. The section deals with 'misvalued codes' meaning that the government is potentially not paying an acceptable rate for a specific service. This will allow the government to, for example, pay more for services that require more payment, such as high-overhead procedures. The author of these criticisms separately attacks the bill for paying the same rate to all doctors, then attacks again for paying different rates.

"Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries."

TRUTH: This section amends the Social Security Act to include productivity measures. There is no mandate or control of anything. This merely updates the way in which doctors and hospitals are paid through Medicare.

"Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs."

TRUTH: This is simply not true. This slightly amends existing guidelines for payments for medical equipment, in this case power-driven wheelchairs. This section introduces no 'regulations' that are not in the Social Security Act.

"Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!"

TRUTH: Overusage of the hot-button word "rationing" is a way to deflect attention away from the actual language of the bill and incite unjustified fear. This section only compares costs incurred by cancer hospitals to costs incurred by similar hospitals, and adjusts payments to reduce the possibility of fraud and abuse.

"Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions."

TRUTH: This is almost correct. The section is one of the first efforts at targeting excessive readmissions. Excessive readmissions are physically and emotionally damaging to patients, while simultaneously putting them, and the health care system, in far more financial risk than is necessary. The American Hospital Association recommended reduced payments for avoidable readmission in testimony to Congress.


"Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government."

TRUTH: This is patently false. The section is about possible methods that the Secretary of Health and Human services might consider in order to address the growing problem of patient readmission. This section does not, in any way, create a penalty, nor does it even mandate policy. It merely provides examples of recourses that might be considered.

"Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited from owning and investing in healthcare companies!"

TRUTH: This provision only limits Doctor's investments in health care facilities that they refer patients to The effort to limit self-referral has been ongoing for many years as an effort to reduce fraud and abuse. This is, essentially, the medical community equivalent of insider trading. Limiting this incentive works to put the patient's health above all other considerations. Doctors remain free to engage in investment opportunities in areas that don't create a significant conflict of interest.

"Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval."

TRUTH: This section regulates physicians' investment in hospitals to make sure that physicians are not unfairly benefiting from their power to refer patients to hospitals they have a stake in. The section does not prohibit hospital expansion.

"Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on 'community' input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN."

TRUTH: In the ongoing effort to demonize community-based groups such as ACORN, every instance of the word "community" has become associated with that group's efforts. In reality, this provision allows for anyone to provide input. This includes homeowners, religious leaders, neighborhood groups, and others. There are no payoffs. There is no money exchanged in any way.

"Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing."

TRUTH: This provision is included in order to allow the government to base payments on practices that work. Nowhere does it say health care will be rationed. The attempt to isolate what works and what does not work in Medicare Advantage plans only benefits the health care system in general.

"Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc."

TRUTH: The government can disqualify some Medicare Advantage Plans from receiving some additional payments, but only if those plans are not meeting necessary requirements.

"Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals."

TRUTH: This section only deals with how to handle special needs individuals who need to enroll outside of the open enrollment period. Almost every type of plan operates with open enrollment periods. This section does not create more restrictions.

"Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone)."

TRUTH: This section merely expands existing Telehealth programs, which supplement but do not replace other health coverage, and provide a vital resource to Americans in rural and remote areas.

"Page 425-430: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?; Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time; Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death; Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends; Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT; Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life."

TRUTH: All of these hysterical claims have been debunked elsewhere. HR3200 provides for the reimbursement of a voluntary session of end-of-life counseling with your physician once every five years. This in no way means the government will make decisions for patients or encourage doctor-assisted suicide. Counseling simply makes patients and their families aware of their options.

"Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN."

TRUTH: ACORN is not a Community-Based Medical Home.

"Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN."

TRUTH: This is clearly still referring to community health groups, not ACORN.

"Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage."

TRUTH: Covering marriage and family therapy, as many private insurance plans do, does not mean that the government "intervenes in your marriage." The types of individuals who are recognized as therapists are clearly defined on page 491; in brief, professionals only, not bureaucrats.

"Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services."

TRUTH: This section expands government coverage for mental health services under various government programs, and ensures that all mental health services will be offered by qualified professionals.

http://fightthesmears.com/

Finally, a voice of reason in a conservative world.

[christiefan915]

why are you even posting in this section? if all you want to do is give other people's opinions, then post those and stfu....it is the height of stupidity to post others opinions on this site, then when those opinions are countered on this site to go all nutso claiming nobody countered and is ignoring you and then to have the kahunas to say, don't debate here, take it up with that site....

you said:



you lied that i accepted any list unquestioningly....then you stupidly said look up the rebuttals, you're not going to spoon feed me after i already countered a few of your truths...

you are making absolutely zero sense in this thread and your refusal to debate the counter points i have given you shows you are incapable of actually debating the issue and rely solely on other people's talking points....

Well, yurt, what, exactly do you want to hear? That I think RW's are stupid and gullible for not listening to both sides of the story? Okay, you've got it.
My opinion is the RW's are using scare tactics, outright lies, and haven't even understood the bill enough to make informed comments on its provisions. My opinion is when RW's post so-called facts from an uncredentialed hack and expect them to be taken as truth, I can post rebuttals from sites I think are more credible.

You wanted more about this claim so read below:

"Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services."

TRUTH: Pages 50-51 contain a provision stating that discrimination will not be allowed in the provision of health care services. Nowhere does the bill state that non-US citizens will be provided free health care services. The bill prohibits federal dollars from being used for undocumented immigrants.

• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free health care services. Pants on Fire! Section 152 includes a generic nondiscrimination clause, which says insurers may not discriminate with regard to "personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services." It says nothing about "non-US citizens" or immigrants, legal or otherwise. In fact, the legislation specifically states that undocumented aliens will not be eligible for credits to help them buy health insurance, in Section 246 on page 143.

You said this was "just plain stupid":

"Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!"

TRUTH: This is not an "audit," it's a study. Moreover, the bill states (pp. 22-23) that the report will "include any recommendations the Commissioner deems appropriate to ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure or create adverse selection in the risk pools of large group insurers and self-insured employers." This is almost directly the opposite of the email's claim.

• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure! False: Section 113 of the bill requires the Health Choices commissioner to conduct a study to make sure health reform does not unintentionally create incentives for businesses to self-insure or create adverse selection in the risk pools of insured plans. There is no mandated audit.

I suppose by "have the kahunas to say..." you actually meant "have the cojones to say..." but it's hard to tell. You've been countered. Have at it.

[christiefan915]

Me, my bees, and the rest of the board.

The "separateness" of the comments are simply a distraction. It is pointed out to you that this is astroturf and you attempt to say, 'but they do it too.' and distract from the fact that you had to find a different site for that, that the only person who resorted to astroturf was you.

And I am unsurprised at astroturfing, I simply point out that you are the only one that used it here and again we all stand laughing as you keep trying to distract from the pants around your ankles.

Can you find an opinion that supports yours that is not from the official propaganda machine of your party, or will you just live with it turn and take some more drinks from the fountain? I know it is hard for an addict to stop...

So you speak for the entire board. Bet they'll be surprised to learn that.

You and yurtie are taking the prize for meaningless, nebulous comments, so I'll just repeat to you what I already said to him:

My opinion is the RW's are using scare tactics, outright lies, and haven't even understood the bill enough to make informed comments on its provisions. My opinion is when RW's post so-called facts from an uncredentialed hack and expect them to be taken as truth, I can post rebuttals from sites I think are more credible.

Can you give an honest opinion that's not culled from the dreck your own party puts out?

[PostmodernProphet]

"Fleckman" ... just another uncredentialed RW hack...

* Name Peter Fleckenstein
* Location Phoenix, AZ
* Web http://blog.fleck...
* Bio Husband, father of 2, frmr Marine, lover of beach, flecksoflife.com

you've apparently confused me with someone who knows who Fleckenstein is....

[Damocles]

So you speak for the entire board. Bet they'll be surprised to learn that.


More distraction, I assume most people can see reason.



You and yurtie are taking the prize for meaningless, nebulous comments, so I'll just repeat to you what I already said to him:

My opinion is the RW's are using scare tactics, outright lies, and haven't even understood the bill enough to make informed comments on its provisions. My opinion is when RW's post so-called facts from an uncredentialed hack and expect them to be taken as truth, I can post rebuttals from sites I think are more credible.


It is my opinion that the left is turning away from actual thoughtful opinions and reasons to avoid certain portions of this legislation because they are willing to deny anything bad for the sake of their party. That this is "crisis" legislation at its worst and needs serious revision before it should pass even to the floor of the Congress.



Can you give an honest opinion that's not culled from the dreck your own party puts out?

See above. I will note that my opinion on this subject has never been hidden and that I have consistently called for a general slow down, but continued debate on the issue so that we can create legislation that is right rather than fast "crisis" crap because legislation created in "crisis" mode is invariably damaging in the long run. My objections of government centralization on this specific area are mainly in the area of privacy, I object to a government entity having power to collect the most private information possible, I do not trust those who run the government to do the right thing as they haven't in the past.

[ZappasGuitar]

to much "organized" response from funded democrats to reply all at once....and libs whine about astroturf:



who decides what is necessary? this is exactly what people are concerned about...the government having that authority and that authority only expanding with time as we all know the government just keeps taking and taking more and more power over our individual lives



once again, NOT good, see above and almost correct....weak



i want a specific cite to this claim



this is just plain stupid....not an audit but a study....fail....get better talking points

OMG! "This is just plain stupid" is the extent of your "refutation"?

Well, with "research" like that, I can see why you are upset with christie.

[ZappasGuitar]

But not the RNC... There is a difference. Astroturfing your way into the hearts and minds of the kool-aid drinkers.

So he got his info FROM the RNC. Well as long as he's not "THE" RNC, I guess Damo's got the high ground...

[ZappasGuitar]

go and cry for more talking points....wimp

And here come the ad homs.

You calling one of her points "stupid" counts as "refutation"?

Alrightie, everything in post #3 is stupid.

See that? I just refuted everything you wrote in post #3.

[Damocles]

And here come the ad homs.

You calling one of her points "stupid" counts as "refutation"?

Alrightie, everything in post #3 is stupid.

See that? I just refuted everything you wrote in post #3.
No, I think he directly called her a wimp, definitely an ad hominem fallacy.

[Cancel 2018. 3]

And here come the ad homs.

You calling one of her points "stupid" counts as "refutation"?

Alrightie, everything in post #3 is stupid.

See that? I just refuted everything you wrote in post #3.

i called her a wimp for saying i didn't counter the "truths" when i did and then she said that she would not debate my refutations that i had to go the website to debate them....

i never merely called her points stupid, that is a lie....i gave reasons as to why the so called truths were NOT truths and i asked for specific citations which she cannot provide.....

as to the ad hom....maybe i should have simply said.....it appears you do not have the courage to debate the issues, rather, you only have the courage to post other people's talking points....i don't see how it is a straight ad hom as she was all over me for supposedly blindly accepting one and blindly criticizing the other....when that is not true, i explained myself and then asked her do the same and she said will not debate me....and instead i am to take my issues up at the link

what do you call that

[Cancel 2018. 3]

OMG! "This is just plain stupid" is the extent of your "refutation"?

Well, with "research" like that, I can see why you are upset with christie.

i notice you ignored the other refutations.....how convenient....

do you know what an audit is? obviously not as you would know that an audit is very similar to a study and in this case they are mincing words....audit/study is the same thing here....

i find it interesting that you critique my refutation YET offer zero defense of the original point....why is that?

[Cancel 2018. 3]

So you speak for the entire board. Bet they'll be surprised to learn that.

You and yurtie are taking the prize for meaningless, nebulous comments, so I'll just repeat to you what I already said to him:

My opinion is the RW's are using scare tactics, outright lies, and haven't even understood the bill enough to make informed comments on its provisions. My opinion is when RW's post so-called facts from an uncredentialed hack and expect them to be taken as truth, I can post rebuttals from sites I think are more credible.

Can you give an honest opinion that's not culled from the dreck your own party puts out?

look at the ad hom bwananadik.....did you get zapped in the head and miss that? lmao.....hypocrite

[cancel2 2022]

You make me laugh again.

The RNC website is a distraction because you were caught with your pants down at the kool-aid fountain with a DNC website whispering in your ear. Your attempt at equivalence failed, it's time to move on.

Each time you attempt the same distraction I will bring up the fact that your answer to one man was the kool-aid fountain and then an attempt at distraction as you tried to pull up your pants.

It seems to me that you are violating your own rules by resorting to personal attack, how can others aspire to rational discourse when you provide such a bad example?

[FUCK THE POLICE]

You guys just don't care whether or not you say what is fact. All you want to do is win. You don't care about America. Republicans first!

[ib1yysguy]

It's like getting bukkakked by stupid every time I come on this board.

[christiefan915]

i called her a wimp for saying i didn't counter the "truths" when i did and then she said that she would not debate my refutations that i had to go the website to debate them....

i never merely called her points stupid, that is a lie....i gave reasons as to why the so called truths were NOT truths and i asked for specific citations which she cannot provide.....

as to the ad hom....maybe i should have simply said.....it appears you do not have the courage to debate the issues, rather, you only have the courage to post other people's talking points....i don't see how it is a straight ad hom as she was all over me for supposedly blindly accepting one and blindly criticizing the other....when that is not true, i explained myself and then asked her do the same and she said will not debate me....and instead i am to take my issues up at the link

what do you call that

Post #27. Written over 6 hours ago but somehow you missed it even though you answered other posts after mine on this thread. :p

[Damocles]

It seems to me that you are violating your own rules by resorting to personal attack, how can others aspire to rational discourse when you provide such a bad example?
It is not personal to describe the argument. Please re-read the rules.

[TuTu Monroe]

i called her a wimp for saying i didn't counter the "truths" when i did and then she said that she would not debate my refutations that i had to go the website to debate them....

i never merely called her points stupid, that is a lie....i gave reasons as to why the so called truths were NOT truths and i asked for specific citations which she cannot provide.....

as to the ad hom....maybe i should have simply said.....it appears you do not have the courage to debate the issues, rather, you only have the courage to post other people's talking points....i don't see how it is a straight ad hom as she was all over me for supposedly blindly accepting one and blindly criticizing the other....when that is not true, i explained myself and then asked her do the same and she said will not debate me....and instead i am to take my issues up at the link

what do you call that

What's wrong calling someone a wimp? Most liberals are.

[TuTu Monroe]

You guys just don't care whether or not you say what is fact. All you want to do is win. You don't care about America. Republicans first!

I see that all the time in the Dem talking points.

[Canceled2]

Which again, is not Fleckman. You are having a hard time with this, I understand, but there's nothing wrong with just saying, "Yes, I am a kook-aid drinking zombot!" and getting it over with.

Hahahaha! Note how she did not refute any of Fleckman's summaries, only posted a list of DNC talking points which may or may not deal with what Fleckman wrote.

This is just a guy who is reading this albatross bit by bit and summarizing it. I wonder if she or anyone else can just refute point number one? How about we take these one at a time?

[Canceled2]

So he got his info FROM the RNC. Well as long as he's not "THE" RNC, I guess Damo's got the high ground...


He didn't get anything from the RNC, he is taking the time and trouble to read this himself and post a summary of what he considers to be important. You are welcome to refute just one single point he makes.

[belme1201]

What's wrong calling someone a wimp? Most liberals are.

"yep"

[belme1201]

You guys just don't care whether or not you say what is fact. All you want to do is win. You don't care about America. Republicans first!



Bingo! You, sir, have hit one out of the park.
They don't give a damn about the country or the filthy tactics they use as long as Obama is beaten not only on healthcare but on everything. It must aid their psycho-sublimation brought on by the past 15 years, among other underlying problems.

[Cancel 2018. 3]

TE=christiefan915;491594]Well, yurt, what, exactly do you want to hear? That I think RW's are stupid and gullible for not listening to both sides of the story? Okay, you've got it.

i did miss this post and am answering now per your request. :)

you're generalizing....i think many of your so called RW's listen to both sides....further, there people on both sides of the aisle not listening to the other side


My opinion is the RW's are using scare tactics, outright lies, and haven't even understood the bill enough to make informed comments on its provisions. My opinion is when RW's post so-called facts from an uncredentialed hack and expect them to be taken as truth, I can post rebuttals from sites I think are more credible.

the irony here is that obama is using fear tactics, yet accusing republicans or opponents of the bill of using fear tactics. you guys are running around saying this "dire" problem must be fixed or else....in fact he uses the word scary:


He added the real danger lies in failing to address the rising cost of health care that is contributing to the deficit already.


"What is truly scary, what is truly risky, is to do nothing," he said.

the dems argument that this is nothing but fear tactics falls flat on its face for extreme hypocrisy



You wanted more about this claim so read below:

"Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services."

TRUTH: Pages 50-51 contain a provision stating that discrimination will not be allowed in the provision of health care services. Nowhere does the bill state that non-US citizens will be provided free health care services. The bill prohibits federal dollars from being used for undocumented immigrants.

• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free health care services. Pants on Fire! Section 152 includes a generic nondiscrimination clause, which says insurers may not discriminate with regard to "personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services." It says nothing about "non-US citizens" or immigrants, legal or otherwise. In fact, the legislation specifically states that undocumented aliens will not be eligible for credits to help them buy health insurance, in Section 246 on page 143.

thats awesome, thanks....so then "affordability credits" is the only way for anyone to get treatment under this plan? what about someone who shows up at an emergency room? great counter to that claim btw...i just wonder what affordability credits are....what they do



You said this was "just plain stupid":

"Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!"

TRUTH: This is not an "audit," it's a study. Moreover, the bill states (pp. 22-23) that the report will "include any recommendations the Commissioner deems appropriate to ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure or create adverse selection in the risk pools of large group insurers and self-insured employers." This is almost directly the opposite of the email's claim.

• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure! False: Section 113 of the bill requires the Health Choices commissioner to conduct a study to make sure health reform does not unintentionally create incentives for businesses to self-insure or create adverse selection in the risk pools of insured plans. There is no mandated audit.

that is in fact an audit....they are checking to make sure something isn't happening....an audit is an evaluation...and that is exactly what they are doing here....to fight this point is a waste of time....


I suppose by "have the kahunas to say..." you actually meant "have the cojones to say..." but it's hard to tell. You've been countered. Have at it.

i thought i was being funny, but apparently not....ignore i ever tried a play on words with that, it doesn't work, fail

[Cancel 2018. 3]

It's like getting bukkakked by stupid every time I come on this board.

you must love it as you keep coming back for more

[christiefan915]

It seems to me that you are violating your own rules by resorting to personal attack, how can others aspire to rational discourse when you provide such a bad example?

He was "describing the argument", doncha know? "The argument" had its pants down and the whole entire forum of posters was laughing at "the argument".

Now I'm so nervous about posting, since Damocles said the whole entire forum lives to pounce and laugh. :rolleyes:

[Cancel 2018. 3]

He was "describing the argument", doncha know? "The argument" had its pants down and the whole entire forum of posters was laughing at "the argument".

Now I'm so nervous about posting, since Damocles said the whole entire forum lives to pounce and laugh. :rolleyes:

HOLY CRAP YOU MISSED POST 49.....AFTER YOU MADE SUCH A BIG DEAL IN TWO DIFFERENT THREADS ABOUT ME MISSING YOUR POST

[christiefan915]

See below.


i did miss this post and am answering now per your request. :)

you're generalizing....i think many of your so called RW's listen to both sides....further, there people on both sides of the aisle not listening to the other side

Unfortunately the RW's who are listening aren't the ones getting all the publicity. Going to a town hall and screaming in the face of the legislators doesn't suggest a readiness to listen and learn. I agree that there are people on both sides who don't listen.


the irony here is that obama is using fear tactics, yet accusing republicans or opponents of the bill of using fear tactics. you guys are running around saying this "dire" problem must be fixed or else....in fact he uses the word scary:

the dems argument that this is nothing but fear tactics falls flat on its face for extreme hypocrisy

[Obama] also reiterated his determination that the plan — with a projected cost of $1 trillion over 10 years — be paid for without adding to the soaring U.S. deficit. He added the real danger lies in failing to address the rising cost of health care that is contributing to the deficit already. "What is truly scary, what is truly risky, is to do nothing," he said

I agree that both sides rely too often on scare tactics, and I've always complained about pols who project fear scenarios so far into the future that it's ridiculous. But the fact is that our country spends way too much on health care, more than any other nation, and according to a 1996 statistic, only 5% of the population accounted for more than half of the costs. Even if that number was doubled today, it still means that the overwhelming majority is facing higher and higher costs for minimal return (defining minimal return as average and ordinary services as opposed to those required to treat chronic, catastrophic, and terminal illnesses). IMO it's no more hypocrisy when it involves the dems and health care, than it is when it involves repubs and SS, for instance.

thats awesome, thanks....so then "affordability credits" is the only way for anyone to get treatment under this plan? what about someone who shows up at an emergency room? great counter to that claim btw...i just wonder what affordability credits are....what they do

The next comment referred to: "Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services." The rebuttal is that there's nothing at all in the bill that makes those people eligible for coverage. I said nothing about affordability credits.

that is in fact an audit....they are checking to make sure something isn't happening....an audit is an evaluation...and that is exactly what they are doing here....to fight this point is a waste of time....

Bottom line, what difference does it make? When I hear the word "audit" I think of an investigation of a company's books, or taking a college class without credit. The plan is using it to make sure the companies are toeing the line in regards to using incentives or finessing the risk pool. It's oversight. Again, what's the problem?

i thought i was being funny, but apparently not....ignore i ever tried a play on words with that, it doesn't work, fail

If you want to spin it that way, go for it. Doesn't make sense as a play on words, but whatever floats your boat. :p

[christiefan915]

HOLY CRAP YOU MISSED POST 49.....AFTER YOU MADE SUCH A BIG DEAL IN TWO DIFFERENT THREADS ABOUT ME MISSING YOUR POST

Geez, yurtie, I'm trying to do this while watching the Steelers pre-season game. It has priority over you. :pke:

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Geez, yurtie, I'm trying to do this while watching the Steelers pre-season game. It has priority over you. :pke:

*sniffles*