APP - Emergency Rooms as Healthcare

[ib1yysguy]

I keep hearing this bullshit. People keep saying that you can go and get healthcare whenever you want even if you're poor as dirt! Just go to an emergency room.

Has anyone else been hearing this line of reasoning? And has anyone figured out what the fuck is wrong with the people who say it?

[SmarterthanYou]

I keep hearing this bullshit. People keep saying that you can go and get healthcare whenever you want even if you're poor as dirt! Just go to an emergency room.

Has anyone else been hearing this line of reasoning? And has anyone figured out what the fuck is wrong with the people who say it?

having had to take my wife in for heart issues many times late nights, i've seen the multitudes of people up there with kids who have the flu, adults with migraines, twisted ankles, and even general colds. it happens. alot.

[Fish]

The Emergency Room - Where Fish meets all health needs... FOR FREE!

[ib1yysguy]

having had to take my wife in for heart issues many times late nights, i've seen the multitudes of people up there with kids who have the flu, adults with migraines, twisted ankles, and even general colds. it happens. alot.

Is that a sign that the healthcare industry isn't broken?

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Aren't they charged for it just the same? So it basically means their "out" is going bankrupt?

This stresses vital resources that should go to emergencies, and puts lives at risk. Obviously, a system in which people who needed medical care could just get it at the appropriate place would be preferable.

[Fish]

If you don't give a shit about your credit and carry an old driver's license the emergency room is the way to go. Not being facetious, I really get all my health care from the ER.

[SmarterthanYou]

Is that a sign that the healthcare industry isn't broken?

for some issues, yes, others....not so much.

it would cost less to take a child to a regular doctor for the flu than it does going to the emergency room. The difference being that the emergency room bill is a bill one can practically ignore and not pay.

I have to wonder what it is with the die hard Obama supporters for this single payer healthcare that they must attempt to paint the healthcare industry as it's either broke, or it isn't.

yes, there are issues with the healthcare industry but the answer isn't to replace or eliminate health insurance companies with a government option. Having had an ex mother in law that was a doctor, I can tell you that her issue was that the health insurance companies had way too much power in how doctors handled their patients. They should never be allowed to set rates for care, types of care, and especially shouldn't restrict the doctor to seeing only patients that are insured by their own company.

you want to fix the healtcare industry, deregulate the entrenchment that insurance companies have within the legislatures. but that's probably asking too much from the major parties.

[Cancel 2018. 3]

in CA....it is not bullshit...it is absolutely true

[FUCK THE POLICE]

And do emergency rooms give you free prescriptions?

[FUCK THE POLICE]

yes, there are issues with the healthcare industry but the answer isn't to replace or eliminate health insurance companies with a government option.

That is not the purpose of the public option. The public option holds down costs by operating on a non-profit basis and using an ethical method of giving out benefits. It's not government subsidized.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

you want to fix the healtcare industry, deregulate the entrenchment that insurance companies have within the legislatures. but that's probably asking too much from the major parties

The health insurance industry pays lots of money for lobbying. Like hundreds of thousands per a senator. If it weren't for their heavy lobbying, there would be no question as to whether or not this bill would get sixty votes.

[Fish]

And do emergency rooms give you free prescriptions?

No, Walmart gives me $4 prescriptions though.

Would anyone like other tips from a poor person on how to obtain free health care?

[Cancel 2018. 3]

And do emergency rooms give you free prescriptions?

no...how could they :pke:

your point

[FUCK THE POLICE]

No, Walmart gives me $4 prescriptions though.

Medicaid? Do you work at WalMart? Do they have a program of free perscriptions for low income people?

[Fish]

No, Walmart just has a ton of medicine on a $4/month prescription program. All three of my meds happen to be on the list. I can't believe you haven't heard of this.

Also, if you're near a Publix supermarket: Publix will fill your antibiotic prescription for free (socialism).

[Cancel 2018. 3]

No, Walmart just has a ton of medicine on a $4/month prescription program. All three of my meds happen to be on the list. I can't believe you haven't heard of this.

Also, if you're near a Publix supermarket: Publix will fill your antibiotic prescription for free (socialism).

HOLY CRAP.....don't tell me that the private market is helping

i've told watermark this before about walmart and he ignored it....but i guess he can't ignore first hand experience

[Cancel 2018. 3]

No, Walmart just has a ton of medicine on a $4/month prescription program. All three of my meds happen to be on the list. I can't believe you haven't heard of this.

Also, if you're near a Publix supermarket: Publix will fill your antibiotic prescription for free (socialism).

are they owned by the government?

[USFREEDOM911]

No, Walmart just has a ton of medicine on a $4/month prescription program. All three of my meds happen to be on the list. I can't believe you haven't heard of this.

Also, if you're near a Publix supermarket: Publix will fill your antibiotic prescription for free (socialism).

WalGreens also has a program.
I believe it's $20.00 per year, for one person coverage.

[Fish]

are they owned by the government?

That was a joke, Yurt.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

All three of my meds happen to be on the list.

That's good for you.

[Fish]

That's good for you.

I... agree?

[ib1yysguy]

So, the Republican plan for healthcare includes charity from Wal-Mart.

[Thorn]

having had to take my wife in for heart issues many times late nights, i've seen the multitudes of people up there with kids who have the flu, adults with migraines, twisted ankles, and even general colds. it happens. alot.

There's no question that emergency rooms are overused, to the detriment of those patients who really need that service, as I'm sorry you learned first hand. Many of the patients you observed either had delayed seeking treatment during regular physician's hours until symptoms became worrisome, or as can happen, are using the Emergency Dept. as their primary source of health care.

UMC here tried to institute a new, alternative program called a "Fast Clinic", which was designed to treat immediate, but not emergency, health concerns. The cost was about the same as a regular doctor's visit, unlike an Emergency room visit which is astronomical. It was meant to serve people who couldn't necessarily get an appointment with their physicians when symptoms appeared, but whose conditions didn't constitute an emergency. It should have worked very well; I used the service once and found it very satisfactory. But it's nearly impossible to get around people's habits and perceptions, it seems. After about three years, they gave up and the program was shut down. That was a real shame.

[PostmodernProphet]

WalGreens also has a program.
I believe it's $20.00 per year, for one person coverage.

I pay $35 for family....save that just on one refill of my blood pressure medicine (necessitated by liberal posters).......

[Mott the Hoople]

for some issues, yes, others....not so much.

it would cost less to take a child to a regular doctor for the flu than it does going to the emergency room. The difference being that the emergency room bill is a bill one can practically ignore and not pay.

I have to wonder what it is with the die hard Obama supporters for this single payer healthcare that they must attempt to paint the healthcare industry as it's either broke, or it isn't.

yes, there are issues with the healthcare industry but the answer isn't to replace or eliminate health insurance companies with a government option. Having had an ex mother in law that was a doctor, I can tell you that her issue was that the health insurance companies had way too much power in how doctors handled their patients. They should never be allowed to set rates for care, types of care, and especially shouldn't restrict the doctor to seeing only patients that are insured by their own company.

you want to fix the healtcare industry, deregulate the entrenchment that insurance companies have within the legislatures. but that's probably asking too much from the major parties.Bull shit. My company switched over to an HSA program two years ago (and HSA's aren't worth shit) because the increasing cost of health insurance was negatively impacting the bottom line. Two months later my wife had a serious bicycling accident where she was knocked unconscience for two hours. The ambulance trip to the ER and subsequent treatment cost $10 K total of which the HSA paid only $3k. I can assure you, that this is not a debt you can just blow off. You are either extremely uninformed or on welfare cause if you think you can just blow that off and not pay that debt then you are in for a rude awakening if you should be so unfortunate to have to take a trip to the ER.

[ib1yysguy]

Bull shit. My company switched over to an HSA program two years ago (and HSA's aren't worth shit) because the increasing cost of health insurance was negatively impacting the bottom line. Two months later my wife had a serious bicycling accident where she was knocked unconscience for two hours. The ambulance trip to the ER and subsequent treatment cost $10 K total of which the HSA paid only $3k. I can assure you, that this is not a debt you can just blow off. You are either extremely uninformed or on welfare cause if you think you can just blow that off and not pay that debt then you are in for a rude awakening if you should be so unfortunate to have to take a trip to the ER.

That's pretty much the bottom line. If you think the ER is a good source of heatlhcare or that you can blow off the bill, you are totally fucking retarded. The ER is the last place people go because it's fucking expensive and by the time you go there the problem you could have fixed cheaply with preventative care winds up being many thousands of dollars more. The only way out if you can't afford to pay it is to go bankrupt.

This is not a solution, this is one of the major problems with our current system.

STY is a fucking retard.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Bull shit. My company switched over to an HSA program two years ago (and HSA's aren't worth shit) because the increasing cost of health insurance was negatively impacting the bottom line. Two months later my wife had a serious bicycling accident where she was knocked unconscience for two hours. The ambulance trip to the ER and subsequent treatment cost $10 K total of which the HSA paid only $3k. I can assure you, that this is not a debt you can just blow off. You are either extremely uninformed or on welfare cause if you think you can just blow that off and not pay that debt then you are in for a rude awakening if you should be so unfortunate to have to take a trip to the ER.

HSA? How can they even call that offering health benefits? They don't at least include high-deductible insurance with it?

[FUCK THE POLICE]

That's pretty much the bottom line. If you think the ER is a good source of heatlhcare or that you can blow off the bill, you are totally fucking retarded. The ER is the last place people go because it's fucking expensive and by the time you go there the problem you could have fixed cheaply with preventative care winds up being many thousands of dollars more. The only way out if you can't afford to pay it is to go bankrupt.

This is not a solution, this is one of the major problems with our current system.

STY is a fucking retard.

Using the emergency room for standard medical procedures is only an option if you are dirt poor as shit and don't give a fuck about your future (because, yes, employers and people in the future are going to look down on you for going bankrupt a thousand times).

[Fish]

I am dirt poor as shit.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I am dirt poor as shit.

LOL. Me too. :clink:

But I'm college poor.

It's obviously not a good option for students or the working class. Do you have to go to bankruptcy court to get this straightened out? Or do they not even bother?

[PostmodernProphet]

I am dirt poor as shit.

/resists temptation successfully....

[Fish]

LOL. Me too. :clink:

But I'm college poor.

It's obviously not a good option for students or the working class. Do you have to go to bankruptcy court to get this straightened out? Or do they not even bother?

I will eventually have to declare bankruptcy, but I can't afford that right now either.

[Cancel 2018. 3]

That was a joke, Yurt.

you never know....

[Cancel 2018. 3]

So, the Republican plan for healthcare includes charity from Wal-Mart.

why not....is there something wrong with that? or are you only satisfied if the government forces it upon you?

[ib1yysguy]

why not....is there something wrong with that? or are you only satisfied if the government forces it upon you?

Wal-Mart offering reduced rates for generic brands of some drugs isn't a solution to anything, particularly when from the other side of your mouth you do everything you can to keep the government from negotiating with pharma companies for reduced prices and prevent us from importing cheaper meds from Canada. You guys are so retarded you don't even realize how much you're getting fucked by the people you vote for. No, depending on Wal-Mart to give you a discount on drugs that you're making more expensive by refusing to give people negotiation power or letting them buy them cheaper from elsewhere is not a plan. It makes you a huge tool.

It does nothing to control inflating costs of health care, it does nothing to increase access to the doctors who have to prescribe the medicine, and it doesn't help people go to see a doctor before their problems get out of control. It doesn't prevent people from getting refused coverage for having a preexisting condition, it doesn't prevent people from getting refused service because bureaucrats in the HMO decide they don't need treatment X or therapy Y.

In short, your "why not" answer is TOTALLY FUCKING RETARDED.

[WinterBorn]

This stresses vital resources that should go to emergencies, and puts lives at risk. Obviously, a system in which people who needed medical care could just get it at the appropriate place would be preferable.

Not as much as you would think.

Its called triage. Whoever has serious injuries or a life threatening illness gets seen first. Anyone not in those catergories gets seen as they have time.

And most of the resources of the attached hospital are at the disposal of an ER.

[WinterBorn]

The bills from the ER can be blown off. It effects your credit rating, obviously.

But the people who are using the ER as the family Dr are not exacty worried about their credit score.

Besides there are always Buy Here/Pay Here car lots and Rent-to-own stores for those with crappy credit.

[Cancel 2018. 3]

OTE=ib1yysguy;488828]Wal-Mart offering reduced rates for generic brands of some drugs isn't a solution to anything, particularly when from the other side of your mouth you do everything you can to keep the government from negotiating with pharma companies for reduced prices and prevent us from importing cheaper meds from Canada.

i'm not sure why "i" am a "you" in the above....i think the government should be able to negotiate with pharma companies.... i think the pharma co's are greedy bastards as they sell high to US citizens while selling low to other countries because those countries will not allow the drug UNLESS the pharma's sell it for less....i understand making a profit....but BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS....when you're talking about drugs that could save lives....fuck that


You guys are so retarded you don't even realize how much you're getting fucked by the people you vote for. No, depending on Wal-Mart to give you a discount on drugs that you're making more expensive by refusing to give people negotiation power or letting them buy them cheaper from elsewhere is not a plan. It makes you a huge tool.

so we should depend on the government :pke:


It does nothing to control inflating costs of health care, it does nothing to increase access to the doctors who have to prescribe the medicine, and it doesn't help people go to see a doctor before their problems get out of control. It doesn't prevent people from getting refused coverage for having a preexisting condition, it doesn't prevent people from getting refused service because bureaucrats in the HMO decide they don't need treatment X or therapy Y.

i agree. walmart's plan does none of those things.....so as i keep asking and even started a thread on, so you could have the floor to tell us how awesome obama's plan is.....what specifically in this plan is going to fix that. and don't be your usual self....i care about this issue, WM had his chance and pissed it away....i am asking you to convince me...and i am not fucking around


In short, your "why not" answer is TOTALLY FUCKING RETARDED.

why not is a question you facklong idiot

[ib1yysguy]

i'm not sure why "i" am a "you" in the above....i think the government should be able to negotiate with pharma companies.... i think the pharma co's are greedy bastards as they sell high to US citizens while selling low to other countries because those countries will not allow the drug UNLESS the pharma's sell it for less....i understand making a profit....but BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS....when you're talking about drugs that could save lives....fuck that


You guys support these people to no end, until someone calls you on something you were supporting with your votes but didn't know about for some reason:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081214075002AA1TBrZ
(I posted a Yahoo answers because even yahoos realize how fucking stupid it is)

The Democrats have it right on this one - look at one thing they're including in this healthcare overhaul:

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/07/31/negotiation-of-medicare-drug-prices-back-for-now/



so we should depend on the government :pke:

Stupid. A public health insurance OPTION isn't making you depend on government. It lets you leave and buy the more poorly run, more expensive public options whenever you want just like you have now.




i agree. walmart's plan does none of those things.....so as i keep asking and even started a thread on, so you could have the floor to tell us how awesome obama's plan is.....what specifically in this plan is going to fix that. and don't be your usual self....i care about this issue, WM had his chance and pissed it away....i am asking you to convince me...and i am not fucking around

Again, it's not that difficult. HMOs have HUGE profit margins. They have to. They're publicly held companies that have shareholders to answer to and if they're not turning big enough profits (as determined by how much profits the other 6 health insurance companies in the country are doing since that's their direct competition - and yes there are only seven HMOs in this country. Some free market) then they fire the CEOs and get someone in who will turn bigger investment returns.

They do this by cutting benefits (denying coverage, insuring as many young people as possible, taking all the money you give them for premiums until you get sick and need to collect, then they actually dispatch a case worker to evaluate your file for any errors you may have made so they have an excuse to abandon you, etc, etc).

On top of that, they need to pay for advertising (this is a huge expense) and they need to pay their CEOs huge sums of money to attract the best talent in the industry to turn the most profit.

The alternative being proposed is a Medicare type option people of any age can buy into. It's not GOVERNMENT HEALTHCARE. You keep the same private providers, etc. It's only a health insurance plan. The advantage to such a plan is that government overhead for such programs is VERY low (it's somewhere around 10-15 percent of the cost of private plans, and about 2 percent of the cost of Medicare), there's no advertising budget, no CEOs to pay huge amounts to, and they need to turn exactly 0 profit. This lets the plans be sold more cheaply. The down side is they have to accept everyone who applies, even the sick people. So that balances out some of the gains. Overall, the plans should cost less. If they don't, then you can buy a plan through a private HMO if you wish. Nobody is forcing you to buy the government plan.

Additionally, the mere existence of this plan puts pressure on the HMOs to improve their efficiency to cut overhead and provide better customer service (because they know an alternative exists to their shit service).

Those are the benefits. You pay into the system but it's likely to cost much less than you pay for a private plan and you wind up with the same coverage (and in fact better coverage because you know they're not going to dump your ass when you need it - the public would never stand for such a thing. Can you imagine the riots?)

Why would anyone oppose such an option:

A) It's going to kill old people
B) Bureaucrats deciding what coverage you get
C) It's too expensive
D) It's socialisms!!
E) It'll outlaw private health insurance!!

All of these are totally bogus.

A) Guess what: Old people already have government run health insurance. It's called Medicare and they don't euthanize old people. Obama's plan (rather one of the six bills actually on the table) provides for end of life counseling. People all over this board have misrepresented page 16 to make it say something it doesn't.

B) Guess what: Bureaucrats already decide what coverage you get. Thusands of people very year die because they get denied treatment they need from private HMOs from whom they have no other option but to purchase. The fact is a government plan could never, ever get away with doing this because the government is directly accountable to the people. If they started pulling that crap, the politicians responsible for appointing the people who run the program would be on their asses in zero seconds flat. You'll get the coverage you need, just like you do with Medicare if you're over 65 or disabled. They don't go around denying treatment to anyone. There's no rational reason to think Obama's plan would either.

C) Doing nothing is not an option. What have the Republicans proposed? Nothing. Obama's plan will provide competition to the healthcare industry and force prices to come down because much of the cost of health insurance is profit, advertising, overhead, and CEO salaries. Doing nothing means the country goes bankrupt in 10 years because they can't afford to keep paying premiums the way they are now. Personally, I think they need to provide further incentives for hospitals to get cheaper - like mandating electronic records keeping (which Obama's plan does). But guess what. That's called "regulation" and guess who is going to oppose it when it gets introduced some day. Guess which party hates even necessary, rational regulatory reform.

D) No, it's not socialism to provide an alternative insurance policy you buy into with your own money. Not to mention, any time you hear a politician tell you government health insurance is socialism, ask them why they voted no for this bill:
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2009/08/i-dare-ya-i-double-dare-ya-vote-yes.html

E) Anyone who tells you it'll outlaw private insurance is lying to your face and you deserve to be spoken to more honestly than that.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Health insurance premiums rose by an average of 6% a year; medicare costs by an average of 4% per a year. If we could offer an unsubsidized plan that's run simialar to medicare that you could simply buy into as an alternative to health insurance, it would theoretically cut health insurance inflation by about a third, which gives us tremendous savings over time. And health insurance companies will have to adopt simialar models to be able to compete.

4% is still unsustainable, but it's obviously a huge step towards sustainability.

[PostmodernProphet]

Stupid. A public health insurance OPTION isn't making you depend on government. It lets you leave and buy the more poorly run, more expensive public options whenever you want just like you have now.



will subsidizing the public option with taxes make it cheaper than the private options?.....will that bankrupt the private options?......will that leave us no options?.......



Again, it's not that difficult. HMOs have HUGE profit margins. They have to.
insurance company profits are regulated by state law, for example, in Michigan, insurance companies may not make a profit larger than 7% of benefits paid out.....

[FUCK THE POLICE]

will subsidizing the public option with taxes make it cheaper than the private options?

That would basically be single-payer and I don't see how it could pass congress.

[PostmodernProphet]

E) Anyone who tells you it'll outlaw private insurance is lying to your face and you deserve to be spoken to more honestly than that.
is it a lie to state that the current House proposal, while saying you may keep your current insurance, says that if you leave that insurance to go to another you MUST go to the public plan?......

[PostmodernProphet]

That would basically be single-payer and I don't see how it could pass congress.

???....nobody has proposed a plan that DIDN'T require subsidies....where are you coming from with that....

[FUCK THE POLICE]

???....nobody has proposed a plan that DIDN'T require subsidies....where are you coming from with that....

Subsidies to the uninsured.

[PostmodernProphet]

Subsidies to the uninsured.
subsidies to the plan.....

[FUCK THE POLICE]

subsidies to the plan.....

Idiot.

[PostmodernProphet]

Idiot.

???...am I an idiot for knowing more about the proposal than you do?.....I don't think so.....

[ib1yysguy]

Still waiting for Yurt to respond since he's got half a brain.

[belme1201]

is it a lie to state that the current House proposal, while saying you may keep your current insurance, says that if you leave that insurance to go to another you MUST go to the public plan?......

Paragraph?
Line#?

[cancel2 2022]

That's pretty much the bottom line. If you think the ER is a good source of heatlhcare or that you can blow off the bill, you are totally fucking retarded. The ER is the last place people go because it's fucking expensive and by the time you go there the problem you could have fixed cheaply with preventative care winds up being many thousands of dollars more. The only way out if you can't afford to pay it is to go bankrupt.

This is not a solution, this is one of the major problems with our current system.

STY is a fucking retard.

Who exactly is he smarter than apart from USFreeDumb and Meme?

[ib1yysguy]

Paragraph?
Line#?

He's talking about the fact that it mandates everyone be covered, which means if you leave your private coverage you need to be on the public option because you have to have coverage of some kind. It's dishonest to say that they're forcing you to buy the public option. You can buy the private options too. But the government will give you some help if you are in an income bracket that qualifies for financial hardship and you can't afford the private or public plans.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

He's talking about the fact that it mandates everyone be covered, which means if you leave your private coverage you need to be on the public option because you have to have coverage of some kind. It's dishonest to say that they're forcing you to buy the public option. You can buy the private options too. But the government will give you some help if you are in an income bracket that qualifies for financial hardship and you can't afford the private or public plans.

If you leave your private coverage you can just go onto other private coverage. What a misleading statement the right is making.

[Epicurus]

So, the Republican plan for healthcare includes charity from Wal-Mart.

lol stupid argument.

How the fuck is charity from the government any different? Much less any better.

[Damocles]

testing...

[Annie]

Is that a sign that the healthcare industry isn't broken?

They do get care, regardless of ability to pay. Doesn't mean the rest aren't paying for, but what is your point?

Is it that they should be able to see the doc of their choice? Funny, seems the new plan is to take that away from all of us...

[belme1201]

He's talking about the fact that it mandates everyone be covered, which means if you leave your private coverage you need to be on the public option because you have to have coverage of some kind. It's dishonest to say that they're forcing you to buy the public option. You can buy the private options too. But the government will give you some help if you are in an income bracket that qualifies for financial hardship and you can't afford the private or public plans.

All I know is that he was, not surprisingly, leaving something out. Probably having been fed it by one of his "reliable sources", it isn't his fault.
Even Medicare recipients can opt for private care, there must be a reason so few do. That is exactly what the RW hacks fear, that most people will discover how well a public system works. My choices with Medicare seem to be better than with BCBS who covers my wife. (Paid by us.) Mayo will no longer take HSAs, they have no problem with Medicare. In the meantime since moving back to Fla. 6 years ago, her BCBS premiums have doubled even after raising the deductible.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

They do get care, regardless of ability to pay. Doesn't mean the rest aren't paying for, but what is your point?

Is it that they should be able to see the doc of their choice? Funny, seems the new plan is to take that away from all of us...

:-/

You can keep the same coverage you have now.

[Damocles]

:-/

You can keep the same coverage you have now.
Until it collapses because it must compete with a program that can run in the red in perpetuity.

[ib1yysguy]

They do get care, regardless of ability to pay. Doesn't mean the rest aren't paying for, but what is your point?

Is it that they should be able to see the doc of their choice? Funny, seems the new plan is to take that away from all of us...

Orly. How's the new plan going to take away your choice of doctor?

[Annie]

Orly. How's the new plan going to take away your choice of doctor?

you show first. How is it that the system is broken, other than as a cliche?

[PostmodernProphet]

Paragraph?
Line#?

http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
page 16, starting at line 3

1 SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT
2 COVERAGE.
3 (a) GRANDFATHERED HEALTH INSURANCE COV4
ERAGE DEFINED.—Subject to the succeeding provisions of
5 this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable cov6
erage under this division, the term ‘‘grandfathered health
7 insurance coverage’’ means individual health insurance
8 coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the
9 first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:
10 (1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT.—
11 (A) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in
12 this paragraph, the individual health insurance
13 issuer offering such coverage does not enroll
14 any individual in such coverage if the first ef15
fective date of coverage is on or after the first
16 day of Y1.

you can keep your private insurance as it is grandfathered in, but private insurers are not permitted to add new insureds...so, if you drop your private carrier, no new private carrier is permitted to sign you up....your only option is the public option.....

[FUCK THE POLICE]

you show first. How is it that the system is broken, other than as a cliche?

I dunno, because costs are rising several times faster than inflation and the cost of the system will double in ten years?

Nah, doesn't seem like a problem to me either!

[Fish]

I'd like to know what decision conservatives would make when faced with a situations such as mine.

Working poor, uninsured, do not qualify for medicaid (because I make too much money..?), no disposable income whatsoever.

It's likely that I'll die or have my lifespan seriously affected if I can't garner regular treatment within the next five years. If you were in my shoes would you not support socialized medicine?

[PostmodernProphet]

I'd like to know what decision conservatives would make when faced with a situations such as mine.

Working poor, uninsured, do not qualify for medicaid (because I make too much money..?), no disposable income whatsoever.

It's likely that I'll die or have my lifespan seriously affected if I can't garner regular treatment within the next five years. If you were in my shoes would you not support socialized medicine?
so many variables.....working poor?....are you underemployed? need reeducation?.....second job?....physically disabled?....earning minimum wage?....what is the restriction preventing you from getting a better job?......the question isn't whether I would support socialized medicine, but whether I deserve it......

[Fish]

so many variables.....working poor?....are you underemployed? need reeducation?.....second job?....physically disabled?....earning minimum wage?....what is the restriction preventing you from getting a better job?......the question isn't whether I would support socialized medicine, but whether I deserve it......

I work two jobs, both of which are minimum wage. I'm also attending college full time (on your dime, thanks).

What is the restriction preventing me from getting a better job? Are you serious? Christ, I had to look for months just to find my second shitty job.

[ib1yysguy]

you show first. How is it that the system is broken, other than as a cliche?

LOL

Okay, since you can't be bothered to read post #39, I'll grant you that healthcare isn't broken. Now explain how Obama's bill is going to remove your choice of doctor. Or maybe you would find it easier to just admit you were lying.

[christiefan915]

I work two jobs, both of which are minimum wage. I'm also attending college full time (on your dime, thanks).

What is the restriction preventing me from getting a better job? Are you serious? Christ, I had to look for months just to find my second shitty job.

Hell, woman, you're not working hard enough! You should have three jobs instead of two and forget about working to improve your future with a college education.

If you were on welfare they'd be criticizing you for sucking at the government teat.

Just know that with RW's, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. :(

[Damocles]

I work two jobs, both of which are minimum wage. I'm also attending college full time (on your dime, thanks).

What is the restriction preventing me from getting a better job? Are you serious? Christ, I had to look for months just to find my second shitty job.
You are welcome. I support that kind of thing. I hope your education is well-used and gains you a job that will improve you life.

[USFREEDOM911]

Who exactly is he smarter than apart from USFreeDumb and Meme?

You seem to be in a little bit of a snit lately, timmie.

What happened, did your latest leather boy move on to greener pastures??

[USFREEDOM911]

Until it collapses because it must compete with a program that can run in the red in perpetuity.

Which is the 300 pound gorilla that everyone seems to be ignoring.

The Government offers a lower cost insurance plan.
Lower; because it's SUBSIDIZED by the Government.
When the Private Health Care Providers go under, then all that's left is the Government's plan. Which can now immplement new taxes to cover their plan.

[ib1yysguy]

Cept it cant run into the red because paygo rules prevent it.

[USFREEDOM911]

Cept it cant run into the red because paygo rules prevent it.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!! :thup:

[ib1yysguy]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!! :thup:

Go ahead. Prove me wrong. It HAS to be budget neutral by law. They HAVE to find a way to pay for it in order for it to even be legal.

You can thank Democrats for Paygo, by the way.

[PostmodernProphet]

I work two jobs, both of which are minimum wage. I'm also attending college full time (on your dime, thanks).

What is the restriction preventing me from getting a better job? Are you serious? Christ, I had to look for months just to find my second shitty job.

then you aren't "working poor"....you're a student....the restriction preventing you from getting a better job is graduation.....

[PostmodernProphet]

hey, I had at least four people making comments about me providing proof that the plan requires you to sign up for the public option if you leave your private plan......now that I did so, everyone has gone silent.....shouldn't you at least thank me for educating you?

[cancel2 2022]

then you aren't "working poor"....you're a student....the restriction preventing you from getting a better job is graduation.....

For a Christian you don't seem to possess much compassion.

[Damocles]

Cept it cant run into the red because paygo rules prevent it.
Yeah, as evinced by the 1 Trillion Dollar deficit. Paygo doesn't fund crap when the US runs record deficits. The program can run in the red "rules" at Congress notwithstanding.

[Damocles]

Go ahead. Prove me wrong. It HAS to be budget neutral by law. They HAVE to find a way to pay for it in order for it to even be legal.

You can thank Democrats for Paygo, by the way.
Rules are not laws. Geez man.

[Damocles]

For a Christian you don't seem to possess much compassion.
Compassion (while misunderstood in this particular post) is a Buddhist thing, "love" is a Christian thing. What he said may be said by any parent, sibling or friend to any student anywhere. Do they not "love" their children, brother, etc.?

[PostmodernProphet]

For a Christian you don't seem to possess much compassion.

for a tom predergast you don't seem to possess much perception....

[USFREEDOM911]

Go ahead. Prove me wrong. It HAS to be budget neutral by law. They HAVE to find a way to pay for it in order for it to even be legal.

You can thank Democrats for Paygo, by the way.

Would you care to explain the Governments Cars for Clunckers Program and why it's in financial troiuble??

[cancel2 2022]

for a tom predergast you don't seem to possess much perception....

You might at least spell my surname correctly, perhaps your name ought to be Post Modern Profit.

[cancel2 2022]

Compassion (while misunderstood in this particular post) is a Buddhist thing, "love" is a Christian thing. What he said may be said by any parent, sibling or friend to any student anywhere. Do they not "love" their children, brother, etc.?


So compassion has no place in Christianity?

[Damocles]

So compassion has no place in Christianity?
It is not a command as love is. And repeating the misapplication of Compassion doesn't make it better.

[belme1201]

http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
page 16, starting at line 3


you can keep your private insurance as it is grandfathered in, but private insurers are not permitted to add new insureds...so, if you drop your private carrier, no new private carrier is permitted to sign you up....your only option is the public option.....

I just found this, I was looking on the wrong thread. Is this excerpted, if so, from where. I want to copy it and compare it to the original. Then I'll get back.

[PostmodernProphet]

I just found this, I was looking on the wrong thread. Is this excerpted, if so, from where. I want to copy it and compare it to the original. Then I'll get back.

????.....what do you mean is it "excerpted and from where"......it's a cut and paste from the link I provided...I gave you the link, the page and the line number......

[belme1201]

????.....what do you mean is it "excerpted and from where"......it's a cut and paste from the link I provided...I gave you the link, the page and the line number......


First of all, read the entire paragraph. It is saying that as of the first day the law goes into effect, insurers must insure under policies instituted under the new law.That is the "limitation" in line 10. Simple, otherwise, if there was only a public option available after the law's inception, why even refer to it?
The old Private coverage already in effect is being "grandfathered" in because those policies were in effect before the law was passed. "Such coverage" refers to the coverage provided before the law goes into effect and the rights of those covered. Public/private doesn't even enter into it. The choice in the paragraph is private coverage both before and after the new law is in effect and the rights of the insured, NOT private vs public coverage once the law is in effect. The freedom to choose is specific elsewhere in the law. It also gives the holders of an old policy the right to keep it if they prefer it to new policies instituted after the law goes into effect.
There is a forum on C-Span right now, maybe it will clear up some of the stupid (Yurt please note, it is the misinformation I am referring to because there is no other word for it.)misinformation so prevalent such as death squads and child killing.

[PostmodernProphet]

????.....what do you mean is it "excerpted and from where"......it's a cut and paste from the link I provided...I gave you the link, the page and the line number......


First of all, read the entire paragraph. It is saying that as of the first day the law goes into effect, insurers must insure under policies instituted under the new law.That is the "limitation" in line 10. Simple, otherwise, if there was only a public option available after the law's inception, why even refer to it?
The old Private coverage already in effect is being "grandfathered" in because those policies were in effect before the law was passed. "Such coverage" refers to the coverage provided before the law goes into effect and the rights of those covered. Public/private doesn't even enter into it. The choice in the paragraph is private coverage both before and after the new law is in effect and the rights of the insured, NOT private vs public coverage once the law is in effect. The freedom to choose is specific elsewhere in the law.
There is a forum on C-Span right now, maybe it will clear up some of the stupid (Yurt please note, it is the misinformation I am referring to because there is no other word for it.)misinformation so prevalent such as death squads and child killing.

the only thing grandfathered in are policies in existence at the time the new act goes into effect......nobody new may sign up for any grandfathered policies....thus, if you go off your grandfathered policy you can't go anywhere else......

[ib1yysguy]

Yeah, as evinced by the 1 Trillion Dollar deficit. Paygo doesn't fund crap when the US runs record deficits. The program can run in the red "rules" at Congress notwithstanding.

You're counting TARP, which doesn't fall under the provisions of paygo.

[ib1yysguy]

Would you care to explain the Governments Cars for Clunckers Program and why it's in financial troiuble??

Are you retarded? It's not in trouble. It was HUGELY successful. They made the program and limited it to $1 billion spent or November as the drop dead date for the program. It was so hugely successful in getting people out to buy new cars that the $1 billion got used up in just a single week. It's so fucking successful in getting people to buy new cars, which means American jobs by the way, that they just gave it another $2 billion to get even more people to buy cars.

How is it a failure?

[belme1201]

the only thing grandfathered in are policies in existence at the time the new act goes into effect......nobody new may sign up for any grandfathered policies....thus, if you go off your grandfathered policy you can't go anywhere else......

Wrong. If you choose to take a policy under the new law, you may. You may also keep the old policy if you so choose. Nobody can sign up for grandfathered policies after the law goes ito effect because they are "grandfathered", that's the meaning of the term. I sold a house in the Keys that was worth more because it fell under a grandfathered 1972 law. A new home may not be built under the old law my house fell under. A new policy may not be written under the old law, that is the limitation. Any policy begun after day 1 of 1st year must fall under the rules of the new law. It makes no reference whatsoever to public or private because there is no relevence to Section 102 and the grandfathering explanation. It is a red herring fished out of context to misinform the uninformed.

[ib1yysguy]

the only thing grandfathered in are policies in existence at the time the new act goes into effect......nobody new may sign up for any grandfathered policies....thus, if you go off your grandfathered policy you can't go anywhere else......

Totally wrong, you liar. "Grandfathered" means that the policies you have now are EXEMPT from the rules regarding who they may and may not drop from their rolls to prevent covering due to preexisting conditions. That was a huge gift to the pharma industry. You will still be able to go buy a private plan if you want, but it'll be subject to the new rules that prevent them from refusing treatment due to preexisting conditions. If you leave your private insurance plan, you have the option to buy another private plan or buy the public plan.

This isn't that difficult. Do you know how dishonest you are? Or are you just profoundly ignorant?

[cancel2 2022]

Are you retarded? It's not in trouble. It was HUGELY successful. They made the program and limited it to $1 billion spent or November as the drop dead date for the program. It was so hugely successful in getting people out to buy new cars that the $1 billion got used up in just a single week. It's so fucking successful in getting people to buy new cars, which means American jobs by the way, that they just gave it another $2 billion to get even more people to buy cars.

How the fuck is it a failure you idiot?

I assume that was a rhetorical question.

[ib1yysguy]

I assume that was a rhetorical question.

The are you retarded part was rhetorical because everyone already knows the answer.

Anyone who thinks cash for clunkers is an example of government failure is so misinformed they have to be trying.

[belme1201]

The are you retarded part was rhetorical because everyone already knows the answer.

Anyone who thinks cash for clunkers is an example of government failure is so misinformed they have to be trying.



Having supported a GOP "government" for so long makes it difficult to duscern success from failure. The line is so blurred and the truth is so difficult.

[belme1201]

The are you retarded part was rhetorical because everyone already knows the answer.

Anyone who thinks cash for clunkers is an example of government failure is so misinformed they have to be trying.



Having supported a GOP "government" for so long makes it difficult to discern success from failure. The line is so blurred and the truth is so difficult.

[Damocles]

You're counting TARP, which doesn't fall under the provisions of paygo.
No, I'm counting the newest budget that increased the deficit to 1 Trillion as proposed by the current Administration TARP was from a previous Administration.

Anyway, rules set by Congress on Congress are not laws and do not of themselves do anything. If congress doesn't curtail spending, pretending you've "paid" for anything at all is ridiculous. Increasing the debt by 1 Trillion does not equal paying for programs, even if you squint real hard and pretend Paygo is a constitutional amendment (I'd support it if it were.)

[zappasguitar]

Are you retarded? It's not in trouble. It was HUGELY successful. They made the program and limited it to $1 billion spent or November as the drop dead date for the program. It was so hugely successful in getting people out to buy new cars that the $1 billion got used up in just a single week. It's so fucking successful in getting people to buy new cars, which means American jobs by the way, that they just gave it another $2 billion to get even more people to buy cars.

How the fuck is it a failure you idiot?

Is USF retarded? The answer? Just as short as the bus he used to ride to school...

Yes.

[ib1yysguy]

No, I'm counting the newest budget that increased the deficit to 1 Trillion as proposed by the current Administration.

This is news to me. Link me up. I'd like to read about it. That seems excessive. My guess is they're including the stimulus spending and the wars (which Bush conveniently never included in his budgets to hide the deficits).

In fact, that may be all Obama did. It's possible he just put the wars into the budget. Bush always tried to fund them with supplementary spending bills to hide the costs. If that's all he did, I think you should be ashamed of yourself for misrepresenting it. Bush should have done that from the beginning, and attacking Obama for doing what everyone with a brain would say is the right thing is retarded.

[PostmodernProphet]

Wrong. If you choose to take a policy under the new law, you may. You may also keep the old policy if you so choose. Nobody can sign up for grandfathered policies after the law goes ito effect because they are "grandfathered", that's the meaning of the term. I sold a house in the Keys that was worth more because it fell under a grandfathered 1972 law. A new home may not be built under the old law my house fell under. A new policy may not be written under the old law, that is the limitation. Any policy begun after day 1 of 1st year must fall under the rules of the new law. It makes no reference whatsoever to public or private because there is no relevence to Section 102 and the grandfathering explanation. It is a red herring fished out of context to misinform the uninformed.

sorry, but you are wrong....so, let's say I currently have an XYZ policy from company A....I am grandfathered in....the new law goes into effect and from that day forward every insurance plan must be an ABC policy.....now, I like the XYZ policy better, because I can afford it and it meets my needs...so I stick with company A.....

now, if my company goes out of business, my only choice is an ABC policy, because all the companies that sell XYZ policies are not allowed to sell to me....

or, if I find out my buddy gets his XYZ policy from company B for a hundred a month less than I pay company A, I am not allowed to switch to company B....all I can do is stay with company A or get an ABC policy....

is that free market?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Totally wrong, you ******* liar. "Grandfathered" means that the policies you have now are EXEMPT from the rules regarding who they may and may not drop from their rolls to prevent covering due to preexisting conditions. That was a huge gift to the pharma industry. You will still be able to go buy a private plan if you want, but it'll be subject to the new rules that prevent them from refusing treatment due to preexisting conditions. If you leave your private insurance plan, you have the option to buy another private plan or buy the public plan.

This isn't that difficult. Do you know how dishonest you are? Or are you just profoundly ignorant?

first of all, I would assume the fact this is in APP means it was awfully naughty of you to call me a ******* liar....especially, since I just got done posting an explanation of why what I said was true.....so stick it in your ear and stir it.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Are you retarded? It's not in trouble. It was HUGELY successful. They made the program and limited it to $1 billion spent or November as the drop dead date for the program. It was so hugely successful in getting people out to buy new cars that the $1 billion got used up in just a single week. It's so fucking successful in getting people to buy new cars, which means American jobs by the way, that they just gave it another $2 billion to get even more people to buy cars.

How the fuck is it a failure you idiot?
I would say it's a failure because you and I as taxpayers (wait, I mean me) just gave hundreds of thousands of people checks for $4500 for no other reason than that it's supposed to be beneficial to get old cars off the road.....even though it was perfectly okay to bring in cars that were in too bad of shape to even get on the road, and even though there is absolutely no evidence that removing an operable vehicle from the road is going to generate $4500 worth of value to the environment.....

are you going to pretend that this program was well planned?.....are you going to pretend it was even thought about?......

[Damocles]

This is news to me. Link me up. I'd like to read about it. That seems excessive. My guess is they're including the stimulus spending and the wars (which Bush conveniently never included in his budgets to hide the deficits).

In fact, that may be all Obama did. It's possible he just put the wars into the budget. Bush always tried to fund them with supplementary spending bills to hide the costs. If that's all he did, I think you should be ashamed of yourself for misrepresenting it. Bush should have done that from the beginning, and attacking Obama for doing what everyone with a brain would say is the right thing is retarded.
This is news to you? Where the heck have you been? 200 days into this administration and you don't even know what they're spending? Now you are wasting our time.

[ib1yysguy]

first of all, I would assume the fact this is in APP means it was awfully naughty of you to call me a ******* liar....especially, since I just got done posting an explanation of why what I said was true.....so stick it in your ear and stir it.....

I assume since you complained about being called a name and ignored the fact that you got pwned means you rescind your lie.

Unless you really love the fact that your policy means you can be dropped and denied coverage for a preexisting condition, you'll be better under the new plan. Nobody's going to force you to buy the public option. That's just a fact.

[ib1yysguy]

This is news to you? Where the heck have you been? 200 days into this administration and you don't even know what they're spending? Now you are wasting our time.

And what do you know, I was 100 percent right

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/obama/2009/02/26/president-obama-puts-4-trillion-price-tag-on-new-budget.html

Obama included all the red ink that Bush left out to fool idiots like you who now look at the budget as it really is and claim its Obama's fault.

[ib1yysguy]

I would say it's a failure because you and I as taxpayers (wait, I mean me) just gave hundreds of thousands of people checks for $4500 for no other reason than that it's supposed to be beneficial to get old cars off the road.....even though it was perfectly okay to bring in cars that were in too bad of shape to even get on the road, and even though there is absolutely no evidence that removing an operable vehicle from the road is going to generate $4500 worth of value to the environment.....

are you going to pretend that this program was well planned?.....are you going to pretend it was even thought about?......

Yeah, it was well planned and well thought out. It's not just about more efficient cars, it's about jump starting the dying auto industry in this country. And it's fucking working. Just go read the news. Lots of bustling again, cars are getting moved off the lots, and that means jobs are being created in the factories that make them and dealerships dont have to close down or lay people off. On top of all that, it's good for the environment.

You are a toooooool.

[Damocles]

And what do you know, I was 100 percent right

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/obama/2009/02/26/president-obama-puts-4-trillion-price-tag-on-new-budget.html

Obama included all the red ink that Bush left out to fool idiots like you who now look at the budget as it really is and claim its Obama's fault.
But you weren't. The fricking spendulous added over 700 Billion on top of TARP, far more than they are spending in both theatres in this year. Jeebus, this dude has spent more than ever before and his bots just lap up the "bushfault" flavored kool ade.

[ib1yysguy]

But you weren't. The fricking spendulous added over 700 Billion on top of TARP, far more than they are spending in both theatres in this year. Jeebus, this dude has spent more than ever before and his bots just lap up the "bushfault" flavored kool ade.

The economy that necessitated the stimulus and the wars themselves are both Bush's fault. It's not like he's going out and spending $1 trillion on new fancy government programs to control you.

[Damocles]

The economy that necessitated the stimulus and the wars themselves are both Bush's fault. It's not like he's going out and spending $1 trillion on new fancy government programs to control you.
Not yet, we're fighting that.

[ib1yysguy]

Not yet, we're fighting that.

You're fighting what will be a budget neutral government program, and one that will likely save you hundreds of dollars personally and save thousands of others from bankruptcy.

[PostmodernProphet]

I assume since you complained about being called a name and ignored the fact that you got pwned means you rescind your lie.

Unless you really love the fact that your policy means you can be dropped and denied coverage for a preexisting condition, you'll be better under the new plan. Nobody's going to force you to buy the public option. That's just a fact.
ah, so now your response isn't that I can join any plan I want, it's just "you'll be better off with the new plan"....your right....nobody's going to force me to buy the public option....unless my company goes out of business.....then they're going to put me on the public option, charge me for it and fine me.....sure, nobody's going to "force me"......and you had the balls to call me a liar....

[PostmodernProphet]

Yeah, it was well planned and well thought out. It's not just about more efficient cars, it's about jump starting the dying auto industry in this country. And it's fucking working. Just go read the news. Lots of bustling again, cars are getting moved off the lots, and that means jobs are being created in the factories that make them and dealerships dont have to close down or lay people off. On top of all that, it's good for the environment.

You are a toooooool.

sure it's working....shucks if we still had a Chrysler dealer I would buy one....they have this matching program so I could get $9000 in total credits for my son's winterbeater jeep that has to be replaced by next winter.....just because the US taxpayers are stupid enough to give me that much money for something worth a hundred bucks tops.....oh wait, it wasn't the taxpayer's idea....it was the governments.....

[Damocles]

You're fighting what will be a budget neutral government program, and one that will likely save you hundreds of dollars personally and save thousands of others from bankruptcy.
Yes, because we believe that there is a better way to meet the same goal without bankrupting the nation.

I will also note that a Budget is only a Budget and it takes actually following it and actual accurate estimations to do something with actual Net Neutral rather than just neutral to a budget.

I can make a budget that says whatever you want it to say, even projecting surpluses, but it won't make it reality when it comes to the end of year statements if you outspend it.

If we do not first find and fix the cost issues we are setting ourselves up for failure.

[belme1201]

sorry, but you are wrong....so, let's say I currently have an XYZ policy from company A....I am grandfathered in....the new law goes into effect and from that day forward every insurance plan must be an ABC policy.....now, I like the XYZ policy better, because I can afford it and it meets my needs...so I stick with company A.....

now, if my company goes out of business, my only choice is an ABC policy, because all the companies that sell XYZ policies are not allowed to sell to me....

or, if I find out my buddy gets his XYZ policy from company B for a hundred a month less than I pay company A, I am not allowed to switch to company B....all I can do is stay with company A or get an ABC policy....

is that free market?.....

Your choice is any policy out there that comes under the new law private or public. You are a poor dupe or fostering lies for political reasons and someone you probably are unaware of, which is it? One thing is for sure, you aren't worth the time of day, peddle your lies elsewhere. Please let me know the source that planted your opinion, I want to report them to the Obama Gestapo.

[ib1yysguy]

ah, so now your response isn't that I can join any plan I want, it's just "you'll be better off with the new plan"....your right....nobody's going to force me to buy the public option....unless my company goes out of business.....then they're going to put me on the public option, charge me for it and fine me.....sure, nobody's going to "force me"......and you had the balls to call me a liar....

No, you can always buy a private plan even when you're not employed. If you really want to keep a plan with a provision that lets them drop you for a preexisting condition, you'll have to pay COBRA and keep it if you lose your job. Otherwise you can buy a new plan which is exactly the same minus that provision. Or you can buy the government plan, if you choose.

[PostmodernProphet]

Your choice is any policy out there that comes under the new law private or public. You are a poor dupe or fostering lies for political reasons and someone you probably are unaware of, which is it? One thing is for sure, you aren't worth the time of day, peddle your lies elsewhere. Please let me know the source that planted your opinion, I want to report them to the Obama Gestapo.
I have provided you with the text of the proposed bill that says exactly what I stated....the fact that you deny what everyone can read means you have no intent of engaging in an honest discussion of the bill but simply intend that it get passed without anyone looking at it.....I intend to report YOU to Obama for making fraudulent claims about the health care bill....

[ib1yysguy]

What a fucking waste of time.

Postmodern, just say it. Is the government forcing you to buy a government plan? Yes or no.

[PostmodernProphet]

No, you can always buy a private plan even when you're not employed. If you really want to keep a plan with a provision that lets them drop you for a preexisting condition, you'll have to pay COBRA and keep it if you lose your job. Otherwise you can buy a new plan which is exactly the same minus that provision. Or you can buy the government plan, if you choose.

.not everyone gets their insurance free from their employer.....I am self employed....I already pay for my own plan....I like my plan....if my insurance company goes broke, I cannot buy a plan like the one I have now from anyone....if another company has the same plan but cheaper, I will not be allowed to buy insurance from them......I will have to buy the government approved plan.....get it?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

What a fucking waste of time.

Postmodern, just say it. Is the government forcing you to buy a government plan? Yes or no.

yes....once my plan is no longer available from my current insurer I have no choice but to get the government plan.....how many times do I have to say it before it sinks in.....

[ib1yysguy]

yes....once my plan is no longer available from my current insurer I have no choice but to get the government plan.....how many times do I have to say it before it sinks in.....

Okay, now you can't even attempt to spin away from this.

This is clearly the most ignorant or dishonest thing I've heard anyone say about health care reform in about 20 minutes. And that's not a compliment.

Again, the "grandfather" provision is a gift to HMOs saying that for people who already have policies, the new rules regarding dropping people for preexisting conditions or refusing to cover them do not apply. It does not mean that after the bill passes you will not be able to buy a private health insurance plan. That is the biggest piece of bullshit ever.

[ib1yysguy]

Maybe Damo wants to jump in and show us that he's not a political hack and tell Post Modern he's wrong about this. How about it Damo? Can you stomach some honesty?

[PostmodernProphet]

Okay, now you can't even attempt to spin away from this.

This is clearly the most ignorant or dishonest thing I've heard anyone say about health care reform in about 20 minutes. And that's not a compliment.

Again, the "grandfather" provision is a gift to HMOs saying that for people who already have policies, the new rules regarding dropping people for preexisting conditions or refusing to cover them do not apply. It does not mean that after the bill passes you will not be able to buy a private health insurance plan. That is the biggest piece of bullshit ever.

obviously, you haven't even bothered to read the portion of the bill I quoted....do that and come back....

[PostmodernProphet]

Maybe Damo wants to jump in and show us that he's not a political hack and tell Post Modern he's wrong about this. How about it Damo? Can you stomach some honesty?

don't go begging for help....if you can't read what's been placed in front of you you have no business being in the argument...nothing in that provision says it only applies to pre-existing condition clauses.....

[ib1yysguy]

obviously, you haven't even bothered to read the portion of the bill I quoted....do that and come back....

I've read it. You've read it, but you don't understand it.

[ib1yysguy]

Area Inappropriate

[Fish]

Sorry sick people, you should pull on your bootstraps harder. What? Oh, broken arms? Well use your teeth then, nobody ever got a leg up with a government hand out. What? Oh they have? Well, we don't want ANY socialized medicine in this country! What? Oh, we already have some forms of it? Well, sorry sick people you should pull on your bootstraps harder...

[Cancel 2018. 3]

i'm not reading how you have to buy government only afterwards....it appears to be talking about preexisting conditions....can you explain a little more pmp and the specific words that make you think this

[ib1yysguy]

i'm not reading how you have to buy government only afterwards....it appears to be talking about preexisting conditions....can you explain a little more pmp and the specific words that make you think this

It doesn't say anything about making you buy government afterward. I told him the same thing you did -- it talks about preexisting conditions. What is "grandfathered" in is the HMOs ability to keep screwing people with existing policies for preexisting conditions, which will be outlawed in new private policies.

[belme1201]

I've read it. You've read it, but you don't understand it.

I read it and everything else in Section 102 which merely describes the "grandfathering" of plans existing before implementation of the law and does not diminish the rights of policy holders but protects their choice of either, under old or new law.
You, sir, hate Obama for whatever reason and will resort to any method to attack him or anything with his name on it, true of false. Your standard or lack of same is obvious. Facts are not changed by opinion.
There is nowhere in the intentionally partial section you quoted, or anywhere else, that forbids buying a private plan, nowhere.

[PostmodernProphet]

i'm not reading how you have to buy government only afterwards....it appears to be talking about preexisting conditions....can you explain a little more pmp and the specific words that make you think this

this is the clause that protects existing insurance policies...


1 SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT
2 COVERAGE.

your right to keep your policy is only available to plans that were in effect before day 1...


3 (a) GRANDFATHERED HEALTH INSURANCE COV4
ERAGE DEFINED.—Subject to the succeeding provisions of
5 this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable cov6
erage under this division, the term ‘‘grandfathered health
7 insurance coverage’’ means individual health insurance
8 coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the
9 first day of Y1

there are conditions....
in order to be grandfathered as "acceptable coverage" the insurance company must agree not to enroll any new members except for dependents of members in place by day one....

10 (1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT.—
11 (A) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in
12 this paragraph, the individual health insurance
13 issuer offering such coverage does not enroll
14 any individual in such coverage if the first ef15
fective date of coverage is on or after the first
16 day of Y1

further, in order to be grandfathered as "acceptable coverage" the insurance company may not change anything about the policy....


21 (2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR
22 CONDITIONS.—Subject to paragraph (3) and except
23 as required by law, the issuer does not change any
24 of its terms or conditions, including benefits and
25 cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day be26
fore the first day of Y1


what's so hard to understand....if all companies are required to offer only the government approved plan after day one except for policies to existing clients, if anyone is unable to continue with their current insurer, the only thing you will be able to buy is the government plan.....

[PostmodernProphet]

There is nowhere in the intentionally partial section you quoted, or anywhere else, that forbids buying a private plan, nowhere.

dude...it's right there in front of you....no private company can add any members to any plan that existed prior to day one...after day one all policies have to comply with government requirements.....what do you think the words "Limitation on New Enrollment" mean?......

[belme1201]

this is the clause that protects existing insurance policies...



your right to keep your policy is only available to plans that were in effect before day 1...



there are conditions....
in order to be grandfathered as "acceptable coverage" the insurance company must agree not to enroll any new members except for dependents of members in place by day one....


further, in order to be grandfathered as "acceptable coverage" the insurance company may not change anything about the policy....




what's so hard to understand....if all companies are required to offer only the government approved plan after day one except for policies to existing clients, if anyone is unable to continue with their current insurer, the only thing you will be able to buy is the government plan.....

You're hopeless, I'm beginning to feel sorry for you. Where does it say government plan? It refers only to rules governing insurers plans under the new law but allowing policies written before(GRANDFATHERED) the law goes into effect to remain, thus giving policy holders a choice. It's obvious you and yours fear truth, and so, you avoid it.
I repeat, you have my pity.

[PostmodernProphet]

You're hopeless, I'm beginning to feel sorry for you. Where does it say government plan?

oh dude, please.....are you going to try to deny that any policy offered by insurance companies after day one have to comply with the requirements of the statute.....go away and bury your head in shame if you think you can get away with that bullshit.....plans which aren't written in conformance to the statute are only available to existing members and may never change....can you imagine what's going to happen to any plan that isn't permitted to adjust to a changing market?.....

[belme1201]

oh dude, please.....are you going to try to deny that any policy offered by insurance companies after day one have to comply with the requirements of the statute.....go away and bury your head in shame if you think you can get away with that bullshit.....plans which aren't written in conformance to the statute are only available to existing members and may never change....can you imagine what's going to happen to any plan that isn't permitted to adjust to a changing market?.....

"dude", your ass is already backing out of your lie. Now they're private, but, horror of horrors, lawful policies. The only thing that they may not change are the GRANDFATHERED policies issued under old law...dud...,.er..dude? Of coursa,the new policies must comply but they are private companies offering private coverage and offered as an alternative choice to previously held GRANDFATHERED policies. but that's what you meant all the time wasn't it? NOT.

[ib1yysguy]

oh dude, please.....are you going to try to deny that any policy offered by insurance companies after day one have to comply with the requirements of the statute...

Guess you just admitted he lied when you said this:


yes....once my plan is no longer available from my current insurer I have no choice but to get the government plan.....how many times do I have to say it before it sinks in.....

[PostmodernProphet]

"dude", your ass is already backing out of your lie. Now they're private, but, horror of horrors, lawful policies. The only thing that they may not change are the GRANDFATHERED policies issued under old law...dud...,.er..dude? Of coursa,the new policies must comply but they are private companies offering private coverage and offered as an alternative choice to previously held GRANDFATHERED policies. but that's what you meant all the time wasn't it? NOT.

wtf?.....I have neither lied or backed up......the fact they can't change the grandfathered policies is what I am talking about....why is the government afraid of companies offering me the same policy they have in the past.....why can't companies sign up new clients on the same policies if people choose to buy them....why can't companies create new options that may arise in the future if they are better than anything we have ever had before and better than the plans the government dictates?....what difference does it make if it's a private company or the government offering a plan that is dictated by government decree.....the grandfathered policies will be forced to dwindle away because they can't sign up new members or adapt to changing market conditions.....in the end there will be nothing left but policies shaped by government boards and panels.....and THAT is what I meant before and what I mean now.....

if you were too stupid to understand it before, at least you get it now.....so respond to my point instead of bullshitting about what you mistakenly assumed I was saying before, fool......

[PostmodernProphet]

Guess you just admitted he lied when you said this:

fool.....if you are too dimwitted to understand what this has been about, it's no wonder you vote Dumbocrat......the government health care bill dictates what all insurance is going to look like....that IS the government plan....it isn't going to make a bit of difference whether you give your money to the government or to a private company....it's all going to look the same....no private company is going to be able to offer you any other option unless you stick with what you had when the government took over the business of health care....and the system is rigged to make sure those options dwindle away as their clients get old and pass away, or they can't compete because they can't adjust to market changes.....

this is just single payer lite.....

[ib1yysguy]

wtf?.....I have neither lied or backed up......the fact they can't change the grandfathered policies is what I am talking about....why is the government afraid of companies offering me the same policy they have in the past.....why can't companies sign up new clients on the same policies if people choose to buy them....why can't companies create new options that may arise in the future if they are better than anything we have ever had before and better than the plans the government dictates?....what difference does it make if it's a private company or the government offering a plan that is dictated by government decree.....the grandfathered policies will be forced to dwindle away because they can't sign up new members or adapt to changing market conditions.....in the end there will be nothing left but policies shaped by government boards and panels.....and THAT is what I meant before and what I mean now.....

The only difference mandated in HR 3200 is the fact that they can't drop you from coverage if you get sick and they can't deny coverage because of preexisting conditions. Read the stupid bill, (area inappropriate). If you REALLY want to have an insurance plan that can drop you willy nilly and deny you coverage, then you can stay in your current job or pay cobra when you leave. Or you can buy an exactly similar plan, different only for those two key bits.

[ib1yysguy]

fool.....if you are too dimwitted to understand what this has been about, it's no wonder you vote Dumbocrat......

Yeah sucks to have someone quote your own words contradicting yourself in the same thread.

First you say you have to take the government plan, then you backpedal backpedal backpedal to say well you can't buy the exact same policy. There's quite a difference in those two statements. One of them is totally a lie. Can you guess which one?

[PostmodernProphet]

horror of horrors, lawful policies

that's it in a nutshell....it IS a horror....because the only lawful policies will be those designed by a government panel.....and THAT is why it's socialism......

[PostmodernProphet]

The only difference mandated in HR 3200 is the fact that they can't drop you from coverage if you get sick and they can't deny coverage because of preexisting conditions.

what a lie.....there is one really big difference that you seem to ignore.....after day one, no insurance company can offer you an insurance plan that THEY have designed....they can only offer you an insurance plan that the government has designed.....sort of like Chevrolet......why is the government afraid of companies having the opportunity to design, promote, and sell me something in the future that might be BETTER than the government plan.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Yeah sucks to have someone quote your own words contradicting yourself in the same thread.

First you say you have to take the government plan, then you backpedal backpedal backpedal to say well you can't buy the exact same policy. There's quite a difference in those two statements. One of them is totally a lie. Can you guess which one?

why is this so difficult for you....the fact that you can only buy "the exact same policy" from either the government or a private company is WHY we are stuck with the government plan.....are you so enamored of socialism that this doesn't offend you?........

[belme1201]

why is this so difficult for you....the fact that you can only buy "the exact same policy" from either the government or a private company is WHY we are stuck with the government plan.....are you so enamored of socialism that this doesn't offend you?........

Poppycock! Whose quotation is "exact same policy"? More of your dishonest gobbledeegook. The choice is expanded for the individual and you have not been given permission by your lying gurus to admit it. The section, EDITED by you, and the entire law, expand the rights of policyholders. The policies do not have to match, another lie. They have to fall within the law as they do today. Your gurus seem to be taking exception to guaranteed family coverage and existing condition rules under the new law as do the insurance companies who also object. My, what a coincidence!
I give you no credit for individual thought, but facts are facts, not subject to change by dogma which you and yours have placed ahead of truth and country.
Your insurance company going out of business analogy is ridiculous, even now you could not buy the exact policy from another company. The difference is that under the new law, if there were any pre-existing conditions, they would be covered by the new company. You wouldn't have that benefit now.
(Again, I call attention to the fact that previously you were adamant that a government policy would be the only choice and now the tune has changed to saying you can buy government OR private policies but they will both be the same because both must adhere to the law.) Which of your dishonest scoundrels did you get your "socialism" ploy from? Do I smell Hannity?
I repeat, POPPYCOCK!

[Cancel 2018. 3]

as to the private/public issue....

all i see is the government mandating the minimum policy that insurance cos offer, not at all getting rid of private ins cos....to me, this is akin to forcing you to get the minimum liab coverage for your auto ins. this isn't strictly socialism and i don't know what exact category it fits, as it is basically forcing all of us to spread the wealth (risk and med payments) around....

by forcing ins co to accept preexisting conditions you will undoubtedly have far higher premiums than we have now. further, my understanding is, that if you don't have health care, much like auto, you will be forced to purchase h/c, if not like auto you will be fined. IMO, this is completely unconstitutional. with auto i don't see a big constitutional issue as driving is a privilege, not a right. IMO, we should have the liberty to not buy health ins.

[USFREEDOM911]

Is USF retarded? The answer? Just as short as the bus he used to ride to school...

Yes.

Are you still using the same tow truck, to haul your fat ass around, that you used as a child; or did you have to upgrade and get one of the ones large enough to haul a diesel truck??

By the way, hows the "hand modeling" working out?
I heard you were trying to step up and become a fluffer, for a movie set.

[USFREEDOM911]

sure it's working....shucks if we still had a Chrysler dealer I would buy one....they have this matching program so I could get $9000 in total credits for my son's winterbeater jeep that has to be replaced by next winter.....just because the US taxpayers are stupid enough to give me that much money for something worth a hundred bucks tops.....oh wait, it wasn't the taxpayer's idea....it was the governments.....

Wait just a minute, you have to quallify for the "up to $4,500".
If your vehicle was already worth $2,000, then you would only qualify for up to an extra $2,500.

Gee, I wonder what all the more disadvantaged are going to buy; seeing as how all the $2,500 and under vehicles are going to end up as scrap metal??
I also wonder how many junk yards are now going to be put out of business.

[USFREEDOM911]

Sorry sick people, you should pull on your bootstraps harder. What? Oh, broken arms? Well use your teeth then, nobody ever got a leg up with a government hand out. What? Oh they have? Well, we don't want ANY socialized medicine in this country! What? Oh, we already have some forms of it? Well, sorry sick people you should pull on your bootstraps harder...

You made a choice to be in school and that is part of what is hindering your ability to be self supporting.
Some people choose to provide for themselves and forgo Collage.
Are you saying you were FORCED to go to Collage??

[USFREEDOM911]

You're hopeless, I'm beginning to feel sorry for you. Where does it say government plan? It refers only to rules governing insurers plans under the new law but allowing policies written before(GRANDFATHERED) the law goes into effect to remain, thus giving policy holders a choice. It's obvious you and yours fear truth, and so, you avoid it.
I repeat, you have my pity.

I see you didn't want to address what was presented, concerning the business going out of business or the insurance company folding.

Why was that.

[PostmodernProphet]

Whose quotation is "exact same policy"?


"exact same policy"...."exactly similar plan"......144 of one, a dozen, dozen of the other.....it came from ibbie....


The choice is expanded for the individual
how can you pretend that's true....all you can buy after day one is a policy than conforms to the requirements of the government proscribed plan.....



They have to fall within the law as they do today.
no, they have to fall within the new act....



Your gurus seem to be taking exception to guaranteed family coverage and existing condition rules under the new law as do the insurance companies who also object.

strawman....you know those aren't the only changes....



(Again, I call attention to the fact that previously you were adamant that a government policy would be the only choice
and again, I point out that is true....every policy available for purchase will be required to conform to what the government decides a policy must look like....
if you don't recognize socialism when you see it, I can't help you....all I can do is try to stop you....

[PostmodernProphet]

all i see is the government mandating the minimum policy that insurance cos offer, not at all getting rid of private ins cos....

then you've been suckered....

[Cancel 2018. 3]

then you've been suckered....

ok....i'm convinced....you're right :rolleyes:

[Cancel 2018. 3]

I'm very angry and I disagree wholeheartedly.

did iraq or afghanistan ever rquire more money than anticipated?

as far as i can tell, the program is a success, in that, it accomplished what obama et al wanted....do i like my tax dollars again subsidizing auto dealers, no....but the program can not be a failure

[belme1201]

I see you didn't want to address what was presented, concerning the business going out of business or the insurance company folding.

Why was that.

I did address it, you must have missed it.
If BCBS goes broke today, where is the guarantee I can find the same policy and coverage elsewhere? In this state it would be virtually impossible because there isn't anywhere else to go for a financially stable, honest insurer. In this state BCBS and Medicare are far and away the major carriers. In addition, with my wife's history of cancer, it would likely be impossible to find an insurer to cover her.
I would welcome a law that would require insurers to cover my wife's pre-existing condition or continue the coverage I had while employed by a company that failed which is precisely what the new bill would do if it came to the above situations. Thus my rights have been expanded, not diminished by the new law and thus it is opposed by insurance companies and their paid lackies.

[belme1201]

"exact same policy"...."exactly similar plan"......144 of one, a dozen, dozen of the other.....it came from ibbie....


how can you pretend that's true....all you can buy after day one is a policy than conforms to the requirements of the government proscribed plan.....


no, they have to fall within the new act....



strawman....you know those aren't the only changes....


and again, I point out that is true....every policy available for purchase will be required to conform to what the government decides a policy must look like....
if you don't recognize socialism when you see it, I can't help you....all I can do is try to stop you....

I welcome your last statement, it is an opinion and your reason to oppose me. It is resorting to lies to further that opinion that I object to. If you want to discuss politics and policies with truth you will have my respect, but when you reflect the lies being told you without checking their veracity, you will find me there to correct them. I can only recommend that when you hear the "stuff", check it out. In the words of R. Reagan, "Trust but verify". You should be even more perturbed when it is your own trying to mislead you than with one with views other than your own.

[PostmodernProphet]

I would welcome a law that would require insurers to cover my wife's pre-existing condition or continue the coverage I had while employed by a company that failed which is precisely what the new bill would do if it came to the above situations. Thus my rights have been expanded, not diminished by the new law and thus it is opposed by insurance companies and their paid lackies.

so create a government option WITHOUT a provision that prevents existing companies from 1) taking on new clients and 2) creating new options that have not been designed by the government....

[PostmodernProphet]

I welcome your last statement, it is an opinion and your reason to oppose me. It is resorting to lies to further that opinion that I object to. If you want to discuss politics and policies with truth you will have my respect, but when you reflect the lies being told you without checking their veracity, you will find me there to correct them. I can only recommend that when you hear the "stuff", check it out. In the words of R. Reagan, "Trust but verify". You should be even more perturbed when it is your own trying to mislead you than with one with views other than your own.

/boggle....the only ones I see misleading are folks like you who try to deny what the statute states.....

[PostmodernProphet]

other less often discussed provisions of the proposed code....

dental care and vision care?.....free braces for all?....

"essential benefits" are defined to include

page 28, beginning at line 18


18 (10) Well baby and well child care and oral
19 health, vision, and hearing services, equipment, and
20 supplies at least for children under 21 years of age.

[belme1201]

I see you didn't want to address what was presented, concerning the business going out of business or the insurance company folding.

Why was that.

Adding to my last reply, I would also like to see the bill allow me to buy drugs legally anywhere I can find them at a lower price, would allow Medicare to save 100s of billions by negotiating for better prices, would forbid drug companies from selling for less elsewhere than in their own country, and would end the necessity of bankruptcy for those who have suffered from catastrophic medical costs.

[belme1201]

/boggle....the only ones I see misleading are folks like you who try to deny what the statute states.....




Oh well, I tried........
Trust but verify.

[PostmodernProphet]

government reimbursement of union benefit programs....perhaps to become known as the GM bailout provision....

page 65, starting at line 12

the government is required to reimburse qualified employee retirement programs for any amount over $15k and under $90k per claim expended for health benefits covered under the government option....in other words, if the government agrees to accept responsibility for a pension fund the employer responsibility is reduced to $15k and the government picks up the rest.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Oh well, I tried........
Trust but verify.

/shrugs....you have failed the verification.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Adding to my last reply, I would also like to see the bill allow me to buy drugs legally anywhere I can find them at a lower price, would allow Medicare to save 100s of billions by negotiating for better prices, would forbid drug companies from selling for less elsewhere than in their own country, and would end the necessity of bankruptcy for those who have suffered from catastrophic medical costs.

not to worry, your drugs will be free...

Page 28, line 8 defines essential benefits to include


8 (5) Prescription drugs.

[Fish]

You made a choice to be in school and that is part of what is hindering your ability to be self supporting.
Some people choose to provide for themselves and forgo Collage.
Are you saying you were FORCED to go to Collage??

How is school hindering my ability to be self supporting? Because without school I could get a third job and use that money to pay a ridiculous premium for health insurance? That sure sounds great, a lifetime of minimum wage jobs and barely surviving, but hey, at least I'd have health insurance.

Also, without college how would I know what a collage is?

* Main Entry: col·lage
* Pronunciation: \kə-ˈläzh, kȯ-, kō-\
* Function: noun
* Etymology: French, literally, gluing, from coller to glue, from colle glue, from Vulgar Latin *colla, from Greek kolla
* Date: 1919

1 a : an artistic composition made of various materials (as paper, cloth, or wood) glued on a surface b : a creative work that resembles such a composition in incorporating various materials or elements <the album is a collage of several musical styles>

[cancel2 2022]

How is school hindering my ability to be self supporting? Because without school I could get a third job and use that money to pay a ridiculous premium for health insurance? That sure sounds great, a lifetime of minimum wage jobs and barely surviving, but hey, at least I'd have health insurance.

Also, without college how would I know what a collage is?

* Main Entry: col·lage
* Pronunciation: \kə-ˈläzh, kȯ-, kō-\
* Function: noun
* Etymology: French, literally, gluing, from coller to glue, from colle glue, from Vulgar Latin *colla, from Greek kolla
* Date: 1919

1 a : an artistic composition made of various materials (as paper, cloth, or wood) glued on a surface b : a creative work that resembles such a composition in incorporating various materials or elements <the album is a collage of several musical styles>

This has been pointed out to him many times but he is incapable of retaining the information.

[Fish]

Don't need none of that fancy book learning. :eats fast food: :watches Fox News:

[cancel2 2022]

Don't need none of that fancy book learning. :eats fast food: :watches Fox News:

Don't forget, loves Country music, live in Crapsville Arizona and disciplines young boys.

[ib1yysguy]

I think it failed, I disagree with you

Running out of money for the program was THE PLAN. The bill was set to expire when the $1 billion ran out or in November, whichever came first according to the language of the bill. They put the expiration built in. It wasn't meant to last forever. It ran out in a week. That's how hugely successful it was. So they renewed it and gave it twice as much money.

[Cancel 2018. 3]

so pmp....you give up because i tell you i don't see the law shutting down private insurance carriers....i'm suckered....that is your rebuttal....

as much as ib1 is an uber pimp your liberal.....he has given cites and rebuttal....as have you, however, i see nothing in your cites to back up this notion of eradicting private insurance

how is this different than requiring minimum coverage for auto insurance?

[Canceled1]

Don't forget, loves Country music, live in Crapsville Arizona and disciplines young boys.

I was wondering why I kept seeing you show up in this thread and just what in the hell you had to contribute to this discussion and low and behold! Here you are AGAIN dogging Freedom's ass.

Tom you spend way too much time here. Just like you did on the WOT. You need to get a hobby that entails you manning up and quit acting like a pansy-assed hanky-wringing girl hurling elementary insults at a man you appear to obsess over.

Christ Tom!

[Fish]

No, ib1, don't you get it? Health care reform wouldn't work in this country because some completely unrelated bill Congress passed worked too well.

[Fish]

so pmp....you give up because i tell you i don't see the law shutting down private insurance carriers....i'm suckered....that is your rebuttal....

as much as ib1 is an uber pimp your liberal.....he has given cites and rebuttal....as have you, however, i see nothing in your cites to back up this notion of eradicting private insurance

how is this different than requiring minimum coverage for auto insurance?

Our little Yurt. Discovering what it's like to attempt real debate with a conservative.

[zappasguitar]

Are you still using the same tow truck, to haul your fat ass around, that you used as a child; or did you have to upgrade and get one of the ones large enough to haul a diesel truck??

By the way, hows the "hand modeling" working out?
I heard you were trying to step up and become a fluffer, for a movie set.

Yeah you are right Shortbus, I did audition, but when I told them I wanted to get paid to do the job, they told me you were already fluffing all the actors and doing it for free!

It must be nice to have a job you love so much you'd do it for free!

[PostmodernProphet]

.as have you, however, i see nothing in your cites to back up this notion of eradicting private insurance

I gave you the text of the act so you could read it for yourself.....I spelled it out for you line by line.....what more do you want?......and where did ibbie provide a cite?....just do me one small favor.....identify the post number where ibbie provided a cite.....

[cancel2 2022]

I was wondering why I kept seeing you show up in this thread and just what in the hell you had to contribute to this discussion and low and behold! Here you are AGAIN dogging Freedom's ass.

Tom you spend way too much time here. Just like you did on the WOT. You need to get a hobby that entails you manning up and quit acting like a pansy-assed hanky-wringing girl hurling elementary insults at a man you appear to obsess over.

Christ Tom!

Well I'll accept being compared to one of the minor saints but Christ is going too far. As to spending too much time on here, I have less than 700 posts to my credit whereas your favourite cowboy has over 2100, in the same period of time, so you do the maths genius.

[ib1yysguy]

so pmp....you give up because i tell you i don't see the law shutting down private insurance carriers....i'm suckered....that is your rebuttal....

as much as ib1 is an uber pimp your liberal.....he has given cites and rebuttal....as have you, however, i see nothing in your cites to back up this notion of eradicting private insurance

how is this different than requiring minimum coverage for auto insurance?

Because the government wont give you subsidies to help you pay for minimum car insurance if you can't afford it.

[ib1yysguy]

I gave you the text of the act so you could read it for yourself.....I spelled it out for you line by line.....what more do you want?......and where did ibbie provide a cite?....just do me one small favor.....identify the post number where ibbie provided a cite.....

lol

You provided the citation for me - the text of the bill which doesn't say what you claim it says. Anyone with an IQ over 70 can read it and know it doesn't say anything about eliminating private coverage.

[Canceled1]

Is USF retarded? The answer? Just as short as the bus he used to ride to school...

Yes.

Not area appropriate material.

[Damocles]

USAloyal, I've had to edit your posts. Please be advised this is the APP area.

[Canceled1]

USAloyal, I've had to edit your posts. Please be advised this is the APP area.

Damocles; Understood

[USFREEDOM911]

How is school hindering my ability to be self supporting? Because without school I could get a third job and use that money to pay a ridiculous premium for health insurance? That sure sounds great, a lifetime of minimum wage jobs and barely surviving, but hey, at least I'd have health insurance.

Also, without college how would I know what a collage is?

* Main Entry: col·lage
* Pronunciation: \kə-ˈläzh, kȯ-, kō-\
* Function: noun
* Etymology: French, literally, gluing, from coller to glue, from colle glue, from Vulgar Latin *colla, from Greek kolla
* Date: 1919

1 a : an artistic composition made of various materials (as paper, cloth, or wood) glued on a surface b : a creative work that resembles such a composition in incorporating various materials or elements <the album is a collage of several musical styles>

Maybe you would finally be able to get a job that would meet your needs, is you would stop trying to live off of the Government teat.

The fact that you had to resort to being the spelling police, just shows that you've been pwnd on this thread.

[USFREEDOM911]

This has been pointed out to him many times but he is incapable of retaining the information.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

I see that you've decided to become Fish's little lap dog.

Good boy, now fetch.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

[cancel2 2022]

Damocles; Understood

This forum is meant to be a haven of tranquillity immune from the likes of your potty mouth.

[TuTu Monroe]

I have provided you with the text of the proposed bill that says exactly what I stated....the fact that you deny what everyone can read means you have no intent of engaging in an honest discussion of the bill but simply intend that it get passed without anyone looking at it.....I intend to report YOU to Obama for making fraudulent claims about the health care bill....

Oh, geeze, YOU are correct, THEY are wrong. Unbelievable.

[christiefan915]

Well I'll accept being compared to one of the minor saints but Christ is going too far. As to spending too much time on here, I have less than 700 posts to my credit whereas your favourite cowboy has over 2100, in the same period of time, so you do the maths genius.

:rofl:

[Canceled1]

Well I'll accept being compared to one of the minor saints but Christ is going too far. As to spending too much time on here, I have less than 700 posts to my credit whereas your favourite cowboy has over 2100, in the same period of time, so you do the maths genius.

The only one that compares himself to Freedom Tom, is you.

Hence, your problem.


:rofl:

[Cancel 2018. 3]

.not everyone gets their insurance free from their employer.....I am self employed....I already pay for my own plan....I like my plan....if my insurance company goes broke, I cannot buy a plan like the one I have now from anyone....if another company has the same plan but cheaper, I will not be allowed to buy insurance from them......I will have to buy the government approved plan.....get it?.....

that i read and understand from the bill.....wouldn't you agree that it is not the same thing as saying you have to buy "government insurance?" in ca i have to have a minimum type ins policy in order to legally operate a car....i buy that gov mandated policy from a private ins carrier...

i don't think private ins carriers are going anywhere....even obama sold his plan short (the idiot) by saying look at usps compared to fed ex and ups....

the part i don't get about this bill is....why such drastic changes...if all the libs want is gov ins and guaranteed ins....why not expand medicare? why create an entirely different animal?

as to forcing ins co to take people for pre existing conditions, i am on the fence as this issue affects me personally....the problem i see is that rates are going to go up for EVERYone....further, i do not see the government truly understanding the costs of healthcare vis a vis insurance....this is going to cost a lot more than what is claimed, to say this is going to be budget neutral is naive....

[PostmodernProphet]

that i read and understand from the bill.....wouldn't you agree that it is not the same thing as saying you have to buy "government insurance?"

no, I don't.....if the government were to design a car, tell you what it may look like, how it may operate, and what options it may have, in fact, tell you they aren't options but standard equipment, then what difference does it make if you buy that car made by Ford or you buy that car made by Chrysler.....it still the same car.....

in this instance the government has said, this is what insurance will look like....it will cover this, it will not cover that, it will have this deductible, it will have this co-pay system.....what difference is there if I get that insurance from company A or company B or directly from the government....it's still the government's insurance policy.....

the only way to avoid the government insurance policy is to stick with a plan that is grandfathered in.....but those plans may not add new members, they may not change a single provision.....how long do you think those alternatives will last under those conditions.....certainly no more than a generation, since all the current members will eventually die off.....

what about the future of some enterprising entrepreneur who comes up with a better insurance plan.....he isn't even allowed to market it....he can only market the plan that the government designed....

[Cancel 2018. 3]

no, I don't.....if the government were to design a car, tell you what it may look like, how it may operate, and what options it may have, in fact, tell you they aren't options but standard equipment, then what difference does it make if you buy that car made by Ford or you buy that car made by Chrysler.....it still the same car.....

in this instance the government has said, this is what insurance will look like....it will cover this, it will not cover that, it will have this deductible, it will have this co-pay system.....what difference is there if I get that insurance from company A or company B or directly from the government....it's still the government's insurance policy.....

the only way to avoid the government insurance policy is to stick with a plan that is grandfathered in.....but those plans may not add new members, they may not change a single provision.....how long do you think those alternatives will last under those conditions.....certainly no more than a generation, since all the current members will eventually die off.....

so you're saying that because ca mandates a minimum liability policy in order to operate a motor vehicle.... that it is government insurance? thats interesting as every auto insurance carrier that i know of in ca is private (meaning not gov own or run)

[belme1201]

Oh, geeze, YOU are correct, THEY are wrong. Unbelievable.




"yep."

[PostmodernProphet]

so you're saying that because ca mandates a minimum liability policy in order to operate a motor vehicle.... that it is government insurance? thats interesting as every auto insurance carrier that i know of in ca is private (meaning not gov own or run)

and what if the government said all car insurance policies had to have 15ok/300k liability coverage (instead of just setting a minimum....that every car insurance policy had to have a $100 deductible, that every car insurance policy had to have this that and the other thing until every insurance policy was the same.....what difference would it make if the carriers were private, nobody is offering any options....it would all be the government's plan of insurance.....

[uscitizen]

and what if the government said all car insurance policies had to have 15ok/300k liability coverage (instead of just setting a minimum....that every car insurance policy had to have a $100 deductible, that every car insurance policy had to have this that and the other thing until every insurance policy was the same.....what difference would it make if the carriers were private, nobody is offering any options....it would all be the government's plan of insurance.....


what if a bullfrog had wings....

[PostmodernProphet]

what if a bullfrog had wings....

then this bullfrog has wings.....are you saying private insurance companies have options?.......if so, it's another example of what happens when you support something you haven't read.....

[Cancel 2018. 3]

and what if the government said all car insurance policies had to have 15ok/300k liability coverage (instead of just setting a minimum....that every car insurance policy had to have a $100 deductible, that every car insurance policy had to have this that and the other thing until every insurance policy was the same.....what difference would it make if the carriers were private, nobody is offering any options....it would all be the government's plan of insurance.....

wait a minute....i don't think this plan is setting anything but a minimum amount of coverage...the plan doesn't say you can't have more expensive h/c coverage....i believe it is simply saying that ins co has to have a minimum, just like ca auto....i don't see where they are saying everything has to be identical in coverage

[Fish]

God I love suckling on this government teat.

[Cancel 2018. 3]

maybe i missed the answer:

does the proposed bill require everyone to have ins...IOW, if you do not have ins, you will be fined?

[Cancel 2018. 3]

God I love suckling on this government teat.


http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Random/giant-sucker-fish.jpg

[Fish]

IIRC, with the public option off the table I believe that mandatory coverage is too.

[Cancel 2018. 3]

IIRC, with the public option off the table I believe that mandatory coverage is too.

?

did you like your picture above?

[cancel2 2022]

The only one that compares himself to Freedom Tom, is you.

Hence, your problem.


:rofl:


Heaven forfend that I would ever compare myself to him, for a start I have an IQ bigger than my shoe size.

[cancel2 2022]

:rofl:

She is not the sharpest tool in the box.

[christiefan915]

She is not the sharpest tool in the box.

She's criticizing you for ragging on dumbo, after years of dumbo calling you "timmie" and making his other stupid girlyman comments.

If it wasn't so pathetic it would be ironically hilarious.

[cancel2 2022]

She's criticizing you for ragging on dumbo, after years of dumbo calling you "timmie" and making his other stupid girlyman comments.

If it wasn't so pathetic it would be ironically hilarious.

That's Jammy for you.

[PostmodernProphet]

wait a minute....i don't think this plan is setting anything but a minimum amount of coverage...the plan doesn't say you can't have more expensive h/c coverage....i believe it is simply saying that ins co has to have a minimum, just like ca auto....i don't see where they are saying everything has to be identical in coverage

wrong....it defines what must be covered, including dental and vision care...it's all spelled out....

[PostmodernProphet]

IIRC, with the public option off the table I believe that mandatory coverage is too.

what do you mean by "public option off the table".....

[Fish]

I mean if this thing passes with no public option there will likely be no mandatory model for coverage either.

[PostmodernProphet]

I mean if this thing passes with no public option there will likely be no mandatory model for coverage either.

but the proposed plan has a public option....why do you think it's going to be taken away?.....

[Fish]

Maybe you would finally be able to get a job that would meet your needs, is you would stop trying to live off of the Government teat.

The fact that you had to resort to being the spelling police, just shows that you've been pwnd on this thread.

Ok, so I've been thinking about this post today.

Obviously you're telling me that the only reason I'm poor is because I choose to be. This bootstraps mentality, which started to rear it's head post-Nixon, is in my opinion one of the main problems the right has with luring in young voters.

I let conservatives in this thread know my situation and in doing so posted a lot more personal information than I ever intended to on JPP. I did this because I genuinely wanted to hear what their solutions to my situations were. I'm not going to say that I didn't have preconceived notions about what those answers would be or that I would even follow any general recommendations, but I was interested to hear any take, from the right, on my life problems as I laid them out in this thread.

The answers I got, AND PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, were mainly along the lines of, "Your higher education is holding you back." Which begs the question, what exactly is it holding me back from?

You're offering me a choice between death and a life not worth living, which as I think everyone would agree, is no choice at all. My alternative, as some of you see it, is to drop out of school and pick up another job (my third, if you haven't been paying attention) so that I can pay an outrageously priced premium (preexisting condition) on a health insurance plan and literally be in the exact same monetary position I am now.

The death part is self explanatory and as I've said before, if I don't get some sort of health insurance in the next few years my quality of the rest of my life will be greatly diminished, if not extinguished. The life not worth living part? Waiting tables, manning cash registers, and filing papers 80 hours a week for 50 years until I die is not appealing to me.

Essentially I've already made this choice. I've thrown the dice and am gambling that I can stay alive until I get my degree. I'm not looking for sympathy or compassion and please don't think I'm sitting here feeling sorry for myself, but do you think this is a decision any citizen of the richest country in the history of the world should have to face down? How does my situation make you feel, not about me, but about our health care system as a whole?

Enjoy this giant block of text.

[PostmodernProphet]

The answers I got, AND PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, were mainly along the lines of, "Your higher education is holding you back."

no, I would say it was more "the fact you haven't completed your higher education is holding you back"....

[Fish]

but the proposed plan has a public option....why do you think it's going to be taken away?.....

Obama has backed off the public option recently, going so far as to say that he'll sign a health bill without one.

Another major reason? The health care lobby and right wing organizations are running a pretty intensive fear and smear campaign right now. To me, the claims are hilarious and obviously false, but I can see where if someone believed what they were saying that it would be terrifying.

[Fish]

no, I would say it was more "the fact you haven't completed your higher education is holding you back"....

But what about right now? I need health insurance right now.

[PostmodernProphet]

Obama has backed off the public option recently, going so far as to say that he'll sign a health bill without one.



so what?.....nobody in Congress has submitted such a bill....the only one up for consideration so far IS a public option.....unless that gets thrown out and somebody puts something else up why would you even pretend it matters?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

But what about right now? I need health insurance right now.

why are you looking at me?....I lack compassion, remember?.....

[Fish]

Because the Democrats are being ridiculously bipartisan with this thing. It's going to be so watered down by the time it hits the floor for a full vote that it will be almost unrecognizable.

Don't get me wrong, I hope the thing passes, but the government is also slow and stupid, fueling my doubts that it actually will.

[Fish]

why are you looking at me?....I lack compassion, remember?.....

When did I say that? Are you assuming that I agree with what other people in this thread have said to you?

[Damocles]

But what about right now? I need health insurance right now.
You do realize that this legislation, even if passed today, does not take effect for a bit over 5 years, yes?

In short, even if you need it now this particular legislation will not resolve your issue.

It's amazing how it is a crisis to pass it, but not to make it take any effect...

[PostmodernProphet]

Because the Democrats are being ridiculously bipartisan with this thing.

/boggle.....you see the Democrats as being bipartisan????.....by chance, do you also see Vin Diesel as bisexual?.....

[Fish]

You do realize that this legislation, even if passed today, does not take effect for a bit over 5 years, yes?

In short, even if you need it now this particular legislation will not resolve your issue.

It's amazing how it is a crisis to pass it, but not to make it take any effect...

I do realize this. In five years I'll either be hooked up to a machine or I'll have a job in my field with insurance.

This might come as a bit of a shock, not so much to you Damo (as you seem to be at least open to reason), but I'm for a public options (and ultimately for UHC) because I worry about other people having to make the same impossible decisions I've had to make.

[PostmodernProphet]

When did I say that? Are you assuming that I agree with what other people in this thread have said to you?

you have to admit that your choice of avatar does tend to stereotype you....

[Fish]

/boggle.....you see the Democrats as being bipartisan????.....by chance, do you also see Vin Diesel as bisexual?.....

I'll assume that's someone on TV, which I don't watch. Instead I read books which I borrow for free from the public library (socialism).

[Fish]

you have to admit that your choice of avatar does tend to stereotype you....

How about that, a conservative stereotyping people.

[Damocles]

I do realize this. In five years I'll either be hooked up to a machine or I'll have a job in my field with insurance.

This might come as a bit of a shock, not so much to you Damo (as you seem to be at least open to reason), but I'm for a public options (and ultimately for UHC) because I worry about other people having to make the same impossible decisions I've had to make.
I think we can extend a hand up much more quickly, and effectively, using legislation that doesn't centralize this into a government bureaucracy that needs to be created out of whole cloth.

I believe that we could create something amazing if we actually had a conversation rather than an ad blitz attempting to get people to accept the first bit of crisis legislation available.

[Fish]

I think we can extend a hand up much more quickly, and effectively, using legislation that doesn't centralize this into a government bureaucracy that needs to be created out of whole cloth.

I believe that we could create something amazing if we actually had a conversation rather than an ad blitz attempting to get people to accept the first bit of crisis legislation available.

I'll agree that Democrats see an opening and they're taking it. Health care reform has failed every 10 years in this country for the past 100. The argument of "What the rush?" falls so flat.

I'll disagree that the ad blitz has been trying to sway people toward the bill though. Do you really think the majority of the media and advertising is coming from those who support health care reform? On this board alone there are people who are one small step away from believing that you will have to go before the House of Representatives on an individual basis and prove that you're worth keeping alive. Does that sound like discourse or something, for lack of better words, completely fucking crazy to you?

[Damocles]

I'll agree that Democrats see an opening and they're taking it. Health care reform has failed every 10 years in this country for the past 100. The argument of "What the rush?" falls so flat.

I'll disagree that the ad blitz has been trying to sway people toward the bill though. Do you really think the majority of the media and advertising is coming from those who support health care reform? On this board alone there are people who are one small step away from believing that you will have to go before the House of Representatives on an individual basis and prove that you're worth keeping alive. Does that sound like discourse or something, for lack of better words, completely fucking crazy to you?
It is directly in response to the "pass it nownownownow" that was going on, had there been nothing there would be no discussion at all and it would have passed before anybody except the writers knew what was in it, even those voting for it in the legislature.

And again, in each attempt previous it was "pass what we have now" and never, "Let's get to a table and make something amazing that everybody can get behind."

It will fail again if this is all that is ever offered.

[Fish]

I agree to a point, but it's never going to be bipartisan. I think that the current rhetoric is cemented proof of that. People are being scared shitless by the propaganda out there and seeing who can shout the loudest is now considered the be political discourse in America.

[Fish]

It's been fun. Will be back to this thread when I get out of work.

[Damocles]

I agree to a point, but it's never going to be bipartisan. I think that the current rhetoric is cemented proof of that. People are being scared shitless by the propaganda out there and seeing who can shout the loudest is now considered the be political discourse in America.
It will if it originates from the legislature rather than from the WH.

Since one branch is solely of one party the only way for bipartisan legislation to be created is from the one branch that is always comprised of both parties.

If after this fails some R's and D's get together to make something that will pass, if it is supported by the leadership of both parties in the congress, it will pass and it will be better than this mess.

[cancel2 2022]

Ok, so I've been thinking about this post today.

Obviously you're telling me that the only reason I'm poor is because I choose to be. This bootstraps mentality, which started to rear it's head post-Nixon, is in my opinion one of the main problems the right has with luring in young voters.

I let conservatives in this thread know my situation and in doing so posted a lot more personal information than I ever intended to on JPP. I did this because I genuinely wanted to hear what their solutions to my situations were. I'm not going to say that I didn't have preconceived notions about what those answers would be or that I would even follow any general recommendations, but I was interested to hear any take, from the right, on my life problems as I laid them out in this thread.

The answers I got, AND PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, were mainly along the lines of, "Your higher education is holding you back." Which begs the question, what exactly is it holding me back from?

You're offering me a choice between death and a life not worth living, which as I think everyone would agree, is no choice at all. My alternative, as some of you see it, is to drop out of school and pick up another job (my third, if you haven't been paying attention) so that I can pay an outrageously priced premium (preexisting condition) on a health insurance plan and literally be in the exact same monetary position I am now.

The death part is self explanatory and as I've said before, if I don't get some sort of health insurance in the next few years my quality of the rest of my life will be greatly diminished, if not extinguished. The life not worth living part? Waiting tables, manning cash registers, and filing papers 80 hours a week for 50 years until I die is not appealing to me.

Essentially I've already made this choice. I've thrown the dice and am gambling that I can stay alive until I get my degree. I'm not looking for sympathy or compassion and please don't think I'm sitting here feeling sorry for myself, but do you think this is a decision any citizen of the richest country in the history of the world should have to face down? How does my situation make you feel, not about me, but about our health care system as a whole?

Enjoy this giant block of text.

If you don't mind me asking, maybe I must have missed it somewhere before but what exactly is it that you suffer from?

[PostmodernProphet]

How about that, a conservative stereotyping people.

as if your choice of avatar isn't merely evidence of the same...

[Cancel 2018. 3]

wrong....it defines what must be covered, including dental and vision care...it's all spelled out....

that is analogous to the auto ins....it defines or rather provides what coverage you have, including liability and uninsured motorist coverage....it is virtually the same thing....it does not mandate you have to get government insurance...your initial claim was that once off private or change policies....you can't ever go back to a private carrier....that is wrong

they are still private companies that can have different policies, or rather, more than the minimum policy the government wants them to offer....rates are going to go up for EVERYONE....somehow i don't think this is lost on the insurance industry.....and seems i haven't really heard much from them by way of complaining....

[PostmodernProphet]

that is analogous to the auto ins....it defines or rather provides what coverage you have, including liability and uninsured motorist coverage....it is virtually the same thing....it does not mandate you have to get government insurance...your initial claim was that once off private or change policies....you can't ever go back to a private carrier....that is wrong


no, it isn't...it's likely you won't see it until it's too late, since you won't look at it now...but sooner or later it will be clear to you....

and my initial claim, and my current claim is that except for a short termed grandfather provision, the only thing you will be able to buy is the government plan.....I don't care if you buy it from a private carrier or the government, it's still the same plan....

how do you think there is room for variation.....co-pays are restricted, deductibles are restricted, what is covered and not covered is restricted....the government plan even has three different tiers....95%, 85%, and a third which I haven't yet found the percent for.....

[Cancel 2018. 3]

no, it isn't...it's likely you won't see it until it's too late, since you won't look at it now...but sooner or later it will be clear to you....

and my initial claim, and my current claim is that except for a short termed grandfather provision, the only thing you will be able to buy is the government plan.....I don't care if you buy it from a private carrier or the government, it's still the same plan....

how do you think there is room for variation.....co-pays are restricted, deductibles are restricted, what is covered and not covered is restricted....the government plan even has three different tiers....95%, 85%, and a third which I haven't yet found the percent for.....

you just gave variation as examples....

and from what you have given i have not seen where the bill says only X, Y , Z coverage can be sold.....do you have something that supports your claim?

[ib1yysguy]

you just gave variation as examples....

and from what you have given i have not seen where the bill says only X, Y , Z coverage can be sold.....do you have something that supports your claim?

answer: no

[christiefan915]

answer: no

LOL, you took the word right out of my mouth.

[USFREEDOM911]

Ok, so I've been thinking about this post today.

Obviously you're telling me that the only reason I'm poor is because I choose to be. This bootstraps mentality, which started to rear it's head post-Nixon, is in my opinion one of the main problems the right has with luring in young voters.

I let conservatives in this thread know my situation and in doing so posted a lot more personal information than I ever intended to on JPP. I did this because I genuinely wanted to hear what their solutions to my situations were. I'm not going to say that I didn't have preconceived notions about what those answers would be or that I would even follow any general recommendations, but I was interested to hear any take, from the right, on my life problems as I laid them out in this thread.

The answers I got, AND PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, were mainly along the lines of, "Your higher education is holding you back." Which begs the question, what exactly is it holding me back from?

You're offering me a choice between death and a life not worth living, which as I think everyone would agree, is no choice at all. My alternative, as some of you see it, is to drop out of school and pick up another job (my third, if you haven't been paying attention) so that I can pay an outrageously priced premium (preexisting condition) on a health insurance plan and literally be in the exact same monetary position I am now.

The death part is self explanatory and as I've said before, if I don't get some sort of health insurance in the next few years my quality of the rest of my life will be greatly diminished, if not extinguished. The life not worth living part? Waiting tables, manning cash registers, and filing papers 80 hours a week for 50 years until I die is not appealing to me.

Essentially I've already made this choice. I've thrown the dice and am gambling that I can stay alive until I get my degree. I'm not looking for sympathy or compassion and please don't think I'm sitting here feeling sorry for myself, but do you think this is a decision any citizen of the richest country in the history of the world should have to face down? How does my situation make you feel, not about me, but about our health care system as a whole?

Enjoy this giant block of text.

You seem to have the perception that people who haven't graduated from a "higer education" are stuck waiting tables, manning cash registers, and filing papers.

[PostmodernProphet]

you just gave variation as examples....

and from what you have given i have not seen where the bill says only X, Y , Z coverage can be sold.....do you have something that supports your claim?


Page 15
1 (b) REQUIREMENTS FOR QUALIFIED HEALTH BENE2
FITS PLANS.—On or after the first day of Y1, a health
3 benefits plan shall not be a qualified health benefits plan
4 under this division unless the plan meets the applicable
5 requirements of the following subtitles for the type of plan
6 and plan year involved:
7 (1) Subtitle B (relating to affordable coverage).
8 (2) Subtitle C (relating to essential benefits).
9 (3) Subtitle D (relating to consumer protec
10 tion).

Page 25
15 SEC. 121. COVERAGE OF ESSENTIAL BENEFITS PACKAGE.
16 (a) IN GENERAL.—A qualified health benefits plan
17 shall provide coverage that at least meets the benefit
18 standards adopted under section 124 for the essential ben
19 efits package described in section 122 for the plan year
20 involved


Page 27
19 (b) MINIMUM SERVICES TO BE COVERED.—The
20 items and services described in this subsection are the fol
21 lowing:
22 (1) Hospitalization.
23 (2) Outpatient hospital and outpatient clinic
24 services, including emergency department services.

28
1 (3) Professional services of physicians and other
2 health professionals.
3 (4) Such services, equipment, and supplies inci
4 dent to the services of a physician’s or a health pro
5 fessional’s delivery of care in institutional settings,
6 physician offices, patients’ homes or place of resi
7 dence, or other settings, as appropriate.
8 (5) Prescription drugs.
9 (6) Rehabilitative and habilitative services.
10 (7) Mental health and substance use disorder
11 services.
12 (8) Preventive services, including those services
13 recommended with a grade of A or B by the Task
14 Force on Clinical Preventive Services and those vac
15 cines recommended for use by the Director of the
16 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
17 (9) Maternity care.
18 (10) Well baby and well child care and oral
19 health, vision, and hearing services, equipment, and
20 supplies at least for children under 21 years of age.


Page 28
23 (1) NO COST-SHARING FOR PREVENTIVE SERV
24 ICES.—There shall be no cost-sharing under the es
25 sential benefits package for preventive items and

29
1 services (as specified under the benefit standards),
2 including well baby and well child care.
3 (2) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—
4 (A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-shar
5 ing incurred under the essential benefits pack
6 age with respect to an individual (or family) for
7 a year does not exceed the applicable level spec
8 ified in subparagraph (B).
9 (B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable
10 level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is
11 $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a
12 family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded
13 to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year
14 by the annual percentage increase in the Con
15 sumer Price Index (United States city average)
16 applicable to such year.
17 (C) USE OF COPAYMENTS.—In establishing
18 cost-sharing levels for basic, enhanced, and pre
19 mium plans under this subsection, the Sec
20 retary shall, to the maximum extent possible,
21 use only copayments and not coinsurance.
22 (3) MINIMUM ACTUARIAL VALUE.—
23 (A) IN GENERAL.—The cost-sharing under
24 the essential benefits package shall be designed
25 to provide a level of coverage that is designed


30
1 to provide benefits that are actuarially equiva2
lent to approximately 70 percent of the full ac3
tuarial value of the benefits provided under the
4 reference benefits package described in sub5
paragraph (B).

there is also "enhanced" and "premium" coverage which cover 85% and 95% of benefits....

so, what variables do you see that private companies could work with in creating different options?....

[PostmodernProphet]

answer: no

do you ever get tired of being wrong?....or has it become second nature to you.....

[ib1yysguy]

do you ever get tired of being wrong?....or has it become second nature to you.....

That would require me to be wrong, which I'm not.

[ib1yysguy]

there is also "enhanced" and "premium" coverage which cover 85% and 95% of benefits....

so, what variables do you see that private companies could work with in creating different options?....

Did you even read that? Or do you have no sense of shame?

MINIMUM coverages outlined for plans sold on the health exchange. That's all thats there. There's nothing there limiting what they can sell you above and beyond the minimums.

[Fish]

You seem to have the perception that people who haven't graduated from a "higer education" are stuck waiting tables, manning cash registers, and filing papers.

No, I don't have that perception of people who haven't graduated from higer education. I have that perception of that's what I'm doing now and it sucks.

[Fish]

If after this fails some R's and D's get together to make something that will pass, if it is supported by the leadership of both parties in the congress, it will pass and it will be better than this mess.

I appreciate your point that the White House should not just be delivering a Bill to Congress, but this man was elected convincingly into office and the fact that he wanted to make some major health care overhauls was no surprise to those that voted for him. You know I'm no fan of Barack Obama, but him getting some input on the bill is appropriate.

That being said, R's and D's getting together on a bill like this is my definition of "watered down". Not having access to affordable insurance is literally enslaving poor people to a lifetime of low wage middle management. To not want to do everything you can to help these people makes me sick to my stomach.

I'm curious what your view of health care reform would look like, Damo. What would you like to see?

[Fish]

makes me sick to my stomach.

lol, but I can't go see a doctor.

[Fish]

as if your choice of avatar isn't merely evidence of the same...

When did I ever discuss or point out my avatar, with the exception of "ASHLEY TODD 2012" I posted in some thread when someone recognized her? What does my avatar have to do with anything? I find the picture humorous so I used it as an avatar.

EDIT: Sorry for the four post. It's easier for me to keep tabs on individual conversations if I make my replies separately. In a thread like this where I'm having like three simultaneous conversations it can get confusing.

[Damocles]

I appreciate your point that the White House should not just be delivering a Bill to Congress, but this man was elected convincingly into office and the fact that he wanted to make some major health care overhauls was no surprise to those that voted for him. You know I'm no fan of Barack Obama, but him getting some input on the bill is appropriate.

That being said, R's and D's getting together on a bill like this is my definition of "watered down". Not having access to affordable insurance is literally enslaving poor people to a lifetime of low wage middle management. To not want to do everything you can to help these people makes me sick to my stomach.

I'm curious what your view of health care reform would look like, Damo. What would you like to see?
He was elected because he wasn't Bush, not because he wanted to make major overhauls in health care. Every candidate, including McCain wanted to make changes in health care.

[Fish]

He was elected because he wasn't Bush, not because he wanted to make major overhauls in health care. Every candidate, including McCain wanted to make changes in health care.

This is a whole other thread. Where should we talk about the 2008 election, I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

[USFREEDOM911]

No, I don't have that perception of people who haven't graduated from higer education. I have that perception of that's what I'm doing now and it sucks.

That's because you've got your plate to full and ergo; you're not able to do any of the things efficiently.

You might have to put aside the schooling, for the time being, and do what's necessary to take care of yourself.

[USFREEDOM911]

When did I ever discuss or point out my avatar, with the exception of "ASHLEY TODD 2012" I posted in some thread when someone recognized her? What does my avatar have to do with anything? I find the picture humorous so I used it as an avatar.

EDIT: Sorry for the four post. It's easier for me to keep tabs on individual conversations if I make my replies separately. In a thread like this where I'm having like three simultaneous conversations it can get confusing.

You find the picture of someone who has either suffered an accident, or was assaulted; and you find it HUMOROUS!!

Let me guess.
You're studying psychologiy.

[Damocles]

You find the picture of someone who has either suffered an accident, or was assaulted; and you find it HUMOUROUS!!

Let me guess.
You're studying psychologiy.
Ashley Todd was the woman who faked an attack by mutilating herself and then blamed it on a Barack Obama supporter and got caught.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Todd

[USFREEDOM911]

Ashley Todd was the woman who faked an attack by mutilating herself and then blamed it on a Barack Obama supporter and got caught.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Todd

Then she has a deeper problem that should be looked at, not found to be "humorous".

[PostmodernProphet]

Did you even read that? Or do you have no sense of shame?

no, just a twinge of guilt for giving you the time of day....



MINIMUM coverages outlined for plans sold on the health exchange. That's all thats there. There's nothing there limiting what they can sell you above and beyond the minimums.
this is either beyond your comprehension or you understand but refuse to admit you are wrong....obviously there is something limiting what they can sell you....it either has to be 70%, 85% or 95%, and everything that is to be covered is defined....

let's try one more approach to see if this sinks in.....apply the same approach to the housing industry....

the government steps in and says, okay, private industry can build houses, but you will use either Blueprint A, Blueprint B, or Blueprint C......these are the colors you can paint it, these are the appliances you will use....if you already own a house which isn't built to one of these three blueprints it is grandfathered in....but you may never sell it to someone else and you are not allowed to make repairs.....

and you say...."Sweet, they kept the private market system"......